Now that 2.3 introduces some damage increase and 30% threat reduction, its time to get this baby rolling. This topic will be updated on regular basis with new information of Retribution PvE performance. This is still work in progress, so prettymuch majority of the information is still lacking. If people have anything they feel should be added, feel free to post PM to me and I add it. (This to ensure I get email notification and can add new stuff ASAP)

1. Spreadsheets
2. Combat System Details
   1. Melee Hit rating
   2. Melee crit rating
   3. Spell crit rating
   4. Haste rating
3. Judgement Raid Effect Examples
4. DPS cycles
5. Item DPS Comparison

1. DPS Spreadsheets

DPS Spreadsheet Author: bellator
Imp. JotC Contribution Calculator (Excel)(Open Office) Author: Sigurd

2. Combat System Details

Melee Hit rating:
You need to aim for 9% hit (Talents + gear combined) for theoretical hit cap.

Melee Crit Rating:

Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:

Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)

Haste rating

Each 5% of haste will increase your total damage output as follows.



SoC downranking

Seal of Command difference in damage between rank1 and rank6 is about 5% in total damage, compared to the mana consuming. This test is done with T5 level gear. Exact theoretical calculations would be nice.



SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn
WWS

SoC Rank1 Example
Mana consumption 20 mana per second
DPS : 934
Melee 48 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 26 %
Crusader Strike 21 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 5 %
DPS time : 5mn
WWS

DPS Difference 11% less with R1
Mana consumption 55% less with R1

3. Judgement Raid Effect Examples Author: flyingtoastr

Updated to apply for patch 2.4

These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. Self buffs are considered into the calculations, but no outside factors (Windfury Totem) are included. All talents/abilities are patch 2.4 versions. Your results will vary.

Drinking Super Mana Potions on cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users equals 130.88 Mp5 (Per player)

Druid

Balance
Rotation 1: Moonfire, Starfire x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 70.48 Mp5

Rotation 2: Starfire, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 61.67 Mp5

Hunter

All Specs
Rotation 1: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Repeat
Attack Speed: 2.10 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 220.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Arcane/Multi Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.44 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 227.46 Mp5

Mage

Fire
Rotation 1: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Rotation 1: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Arcane
Rotation 1: Arcane Blast x3, Arcane Missiles, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.08 Mp5

Paladin

Protection
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Judgement of Righteousness, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 124.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 147.32 Mp5

Rotation 3: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 106.81 Mp5

Rotation 4: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.39 Mp5

Priest

Shadow
Rotation 1: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Shaman

Elemental
Rotation 1: Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 118.40 Mp5

Enhancement
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Earth Shock, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.6 seconds/2.6 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 317.63 Mp5

Warlock

Affliction
Rotation 1: Curse of Something, Siphon Life, Unstable Afflicition, Corruption, Shadowbolt, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 100.91 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Shadowbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Immolate, Incinerate x6, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 86.33 Mp5

4. DPS cycles

This is an adaptation of the WW/Bloodthirst model used by warriors (where they only put 1 point into Imp WW). What that means is 1 point in imp Judgement is actually a DPS increase over 2 points. Effect is very minimal and with 2 points you have little more room for errors.



Full cycle comparison table:
ImageShack - Hosting :: retcyclebz6.jpg

DPS Cycle Spreadsheet Author: Sigurd

5. Item Comparison

Full item comparison - Author: Nuuga

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Paladin DPS Gear Rankings

How are the items being ranked?
- Currently, this is for Seal of Command Retribution Paladins only. Assuming an 8 (or 10 second depending on talents) damage cycle of normal attacks with SOC and then Judgement of Command and Crusader Strike.
- Based on this attack cycle, a DPS value based on the item's strength, attack power, agility, +hit, +crit and +spell damage are calculated.
- Also relative mob level is taken into account as you can see in the full attack table.


Weapon Comparison based on bellator spreadsheet.

Tier5 and Tier6 gears are assumed most common items with full tier 5/6 according to instance itemization available. Values for DPS are not your actual damage output. Its unbuffed reference dps values only so you can compare the difference between weapons (Adjust the evaluation to your own itemization, your mileage may vary). Do not consider the dps value as actual damage output.



Anyone whining about conditional differences will be shot, use your own imagination in evaluating the results. It is not my responsability to take stupidity into account. These are only reference values to ease weapon selection, for exact results use bellators DPS spreadsheet with your exact itemization.


WiP.

On one of your videos you said you would like to work in AW cycles into your dps regime, but couldn't due to threat. Will this be possible now? (not much of a retadin so the maths is unknown to me). Nice work on the graph!

Is this 30% thread reduction REALLY confirmed?

The only blue post i found where it was listed (along with other things) got removed shortly after it was posted.

And there is nothing mentioned in 2.3 notes on the PTR, however i can't get on the PTR to take a look myself, though (damn char copy....).

Assuming the joWis proc on PTR is a bug, what's the cutoff in fight duration for the extra minimal damage from max rank soc to outweigh the functionally infinite sustainability of rank 1 soc spam?

How do we even go about starting to find that?

Ret paladin checking in. I am more than pumped for the changes forthcoming.

From my own guestimations 2.3 will be roughly a 15% dps increase for us given the CS changes, the 3% more crit, and the basically nullified change of vengeance dropping.

I don't know about you, but this coupled with threat reduction will be putting me at the top of the meters on a lot of fights. I look forward to the QQ posts after 2.3 goes live.

Thanks, however that damn spell damage on season3 set is still there, though. Hope this get's a single blue post, too. :P

Let's not make these kinds of wild judgments, work with real numbers, and avoid making sweeping conclusions before we actually get some data.

I will get you those numbers.

Does not appear to be an Open Office friendly spreadsheet. I know it's an Excel spreadsheet, but I've never had a problem opening any of them in Open Office before.

Any way it could be made compatible, or something?

Just to get it up here because there were questions, the confirmed 2.3 changes and the blues who said it:

Confirmed 2.3 Paladin Changes
-Mana cost for Exorcism, Holy Wrath, and Hammer of Wrath lowered. (Source)
-Vengance duration increased to 30 seconds. (Source)
-Improved Seal of Crusader benefits put into base spell, talent benefits replaced with those of Sancitified Crusader. (Source)
-Sanctified Crusader renamed to Sanctified Seals, which increases chance to critically hit with all spells and melee attacks by 1/2/3% and reduces the chance your Seals will be dispelled by 33/66/100%. (Source)
-Crusader Strike cooldown reduced to 6 seconds. (Source)
-Vindication frequency and duration increased and reduces all attributes by 5/10/15%. (Source)
-Pursuit of Justice is now 3 ranks and increases movement speed by 5/10/15% and reduces the chance to be hit by spells by 1/2/3%. (Source)
-Lower ranks of Flash of Light and Holy Light are now properly penalized when used with Blessing of Light. (Source)
-Cleanse and Purify range increased to 40 yards. (Source)
-The combat log will now show the health gained from rank 5 of Judgement of Light as Judgement of Light instead of Seal of Light. (Source)
-Weapon Expertise (Protection) renamed Combat Expertise, now increases expertise by 1/2/3/4/5 and total Stamina by 2/4/6/8/10%.
-Paladin seals no longer have a low chance to be dispelled if you have 3 points in Sanctified Seals.
-Judgement of Wisdom: It is no longer possible for the mana energize effect to trigger off of reapplication of the Judgement of Wisdom.
-Divine Favor: When this ability is cast immediately after a critical heal, it will no longer be removed incorrectly.
-Fanaticism (Retribution) now also reduces threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%.
-Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
-Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased.
-Spiritual Attunement: This ability will now gain mana properly from Vampiric Embrace heals.

I'll try to keep it updated when/if there are any more changes.

Has anyone started re-estimating the dps value of stats/items now post changes and with the introduction of armor penetration.

ie: The value of crit vs ap vs +dmg vs haste vs ac penetration

Edit: Ah right there's a pretty decent graph in bella's spreadsheet

DPS sheet doesn't work in OOCalc. According to sources more knowledgeable than me, it's probably because OOCalc doesn't support indirect commands. The spreadsheet in unusable as of now; Er:502's everywhere.
An OOCalc-workable version would be great :d

The spreadsheet really needs s2 gear + veteran rewards + arena 2h'ers added, it's comparable to T5 almost (more crit less ap, more stm, less int) and alot of people giving ret a go in 2.3 will be filling out their current gear with pvp rewards considering it will be cheap to do so.

Added Sigurd's DPS cycle spreadsheet and image.

Wouldn't a rotation based on CS whenever it's up and judging only when GCD is up in order to reseal instantly be better than all the rotations listed? Unless I'm missing something just by glancing at the numbers on the rotation spreadsheet CS>keeping SoC up>judging, but the highest DPS rotation there could judge more often with 8s cooldown on judgement while still keeping that order of priority.

So I would add a rotation to the sheet that CSs whenever it's up and judging as often as you can as long as the seal's GCD won't delay the CS.

Sigurd's DPS cycle spreadsheet seems to be missing a case.

In his first cycle, he occasionally Judges during the CS global cooldown. This reduces SoC uptime. Given that SoC does more DPS than Judgement (224 DPS vs 100 DPS by his numbers), wouldn't it be better to delay the Judgement by 1.5s and keep SoC uptime at 100%?

The case where Crusader Strike has priority, 8s Judgement, and 100% SoC uptime is not represented.

^That's exactly what I was saying.^

Checking it-
Okay, here's what I figured out (and I corrected a couple math errors from the previous ones)


They're so incredibly close, I'd actually probably use the 5th rotation instead of the 4th, since it has a bit more wiggle-room. So yes, the 8sec Judgement only judging when it won't interfere is probably the best choice.

Yeah that was the original cycle. Not like it is hard to add to the list for comparison. But is it better to loose fraction of SoC uptime and delay JoC because of that? You have time window for reseal between AA timer anyway. So the effect should be extremely minimal.



I suppose this is the case.

Is this supposed to be a Retribution Paladin Megathread? I've often wondered how I should gem my sockets as Ret. I placed a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] on my meta socket, while the red sockets are getting [Bold Living Ruby], the yellow sockets are getting [Inscribed Noble Topaz] and the blues are getting [Sovereign Nightseye].

In any case, I'm *extremely* excited about the incoming threat reduction, which pretty much seals the deal for the already crotch-kickingly awesome changes.

The general algorithm for DPS is to use your higher DPS abilities before your lower DPS ones. JoC is lower DPS than SoC. Therefore, prioritizing JoC over SoC does not make intuitive sense.

Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?

Here's the OpenOffice friendly version of the Sanctified Crusader spreadsheet:
Sanctified Crusader Contribution Calculator(.ods)

Nice thread,

Cromfel, there's actually a slightly later version of the dps model (version 8) here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

I plan to include different dps cycles into the model to make it more realistic in terms of damage output (as it assumes everything can be used on CD)

I also plan to include a mana analysis tracking overall mana over time. damage per mana of abilities etc.

But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :p If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so


Cromfel, for more dramatic effect, you man want to rewrite:-

"DPS Difference 11% less with R1
Mana consumption 55% less with R1"

as:-

"DPS increase using R6 = 11%
Mana consumption increase using R1 = 125%"

I could test it. What are good mobs for testing this on? Are the ones in Blasted Lands any good for this? (I assume they have very low armor, but for comparison between SoC and SoB it doesn't matter, I guess.) Oh, by the way, being a blood elf, I haven't cared so much about gearing for spell damage, so it's below 200.

I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage

If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.

I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.

Melee Crit Rating:
Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Spell hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:
Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)


Is that all?

You might want to consider adding an itemization section much like the enhancement shaman post. However I can be no help there because I have no idea how to itemize a retribution paladin (gogo prot!).

Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.

I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.

Actually, I noticed how similar mostly when I was testing them out in Blasted Lands last night. Once you get going, they're almost identical - but it's actually hard to get to the next tier of Ret without putting 2 points in Imp Judgement. Also, chaining the GCD from SoC into CS proves sometimes more difficult than CS->SoC, since you can judge while the GCD from CS is going, and reseal right after.

So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.

It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.

--edit--

There are actually a few fields that do function in the top section for "Information". "Base Information" is static, so that obviously works, but strangely things like "Hit", "Crit", "Dam (S)", work.

Going through the steps on how things are totaled out, it seems to be that the calculations for trinkets is where the problem lies. IE: if I completely remove the "Strength" column for trinkets and the libram, the stat totals from gear comes out to an actual value with no error, and then the overall total works fine... until you factor in Divine Strength, which breaks it again. D:

The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)

Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)

Rough. So essentially the only benefit from haste is auto attack damage, which isn't bad but it's going to be hard to justify when I watch swing #3 in a row without an SoC proc.

I don't actually remember having seen an SoC proc from a WF generated attack, however it very well could. I remember reading somewhere that it wouldn't.

I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.

I know the general consensus (especially for BE pallys) is that warrior gear with +haste is far superior than tier sets. Since I have yet to see any accurate information regarding the bonus proc rate for Tier 6, I can't tell whether it would be worth the investment or not. According to WoWhead its a 20% proc rate, but I would much rather see a WWS or combat log than trust it. As for the 2 piece of Tier 5, its effectiveness is entirely dependant on your use of Judgement. If you use Judgement every cooldown it works out to a fair amount of saved mana, but you would be sacrificing a decent amount of stats (especially haste) to use it over non-tier BT gear.

To the best of my knowledge no one has yet tried to keep an up to date equipment list for ret pallys though.

The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.

This may very well change with the threat reduction, but right now you only want enough crit to keep Vengeance up as close to 100% as possible. After that crit only makes your aggro more spikey while not increasing your DPS as well as AP. With the change to Vengeance and the addition of more crit to the tree (Sanctified Seals) it will mean you will need much less crit from gear to keep that 100% uptime. There is a point where AP starts to give diminished returns for overall DPS as compared to crit, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I'm sure a full time retadin could help a bit more there than myself.

As a side note on gear since I can't load the calculator in open office...

How do Cataclysm's Edge and the Torch of the Damned compete?

I have fairly free options on both, since the only raiding warrior with anything like strong PvP inclinations dropped off of arenaing recently and respecced Fury, and already has a Stormherald anyway.

Basically, is the -.3 speed on the Cataclysm enough of a deficiency to outweigh the ~60 AP and 8 DPS advantage (and 300 armor penetration)?

I'm trying to decide on their relative value.

I always thought Torch was best as a given but I want to evaluate it in a more complete fashion.

I have a question about what kind of group a ret paladin needs to be in to be successful. Currently we have a melee group that looks like this:

DPS Warrior (fury)
DPS Warrior (fury)
Rogue
Rogue
Enhancement Shaman

Presumably if one paladin in our raid goes retribution, he would displace a warrior, and an additional healer would be invited.

However, in the instance that we only have 25, including 2 dps warriors, how should group allocation be handled. Could a paladin make use of a shadow priest group and incorporate consecration into the dps cycle? Should the warrior be put with the hunter/feral group?

I wouldn't recommend putting the ret pally with the shadow priest as a replacement for WF. Cons spamming won't make up for the lost dps.

After the haste nerf and the recalculation of PPM % chance on the after-haste weapon speed, it is definitely not worth it to trade crit for haste if you're an alliance paladin, assuming the SoV tests apply to SoC. For SoB pallies it was definitely worth it to trade crit for haste before the haste nerf, and about even after the haste nerf.

It was suggested to me I repost here. Have at it! ^_^

If it helps at all, I get macro warning in OOCalc when I load the spriest spreadsheet but get no errors, and I *think* it does incorporate hidden cells, but I might be wrong. As least, I don't see on the sheet where any of the calculations are actually done, unless there's a difference between "cannot be seen by default" and "hidden."

The dropdown menus in your spreadsheet work fine, sorry I didn't clarify that (though they seem to like to break as well, the mage spreadsheet does this). It's just everything else that's messed up :P

Just a weird calculation mechanic I discovered a while back. Certain conditional multipliers such as Crusade will apply to Seal of Blood and Seal of Command twice.

With sanctity aura off, I was hitting for more than 35% of my white damage when using a low dps, low damage range weapon. I created a pretty big sample size and found that it was hitting noticeably harder (I believe it was 3%, but I don't have the numbers anymore).

I believe that crusade first applies to your base melee damage, then when blood determines its damage it applies the modifier again.

I don't believe this is the case for Sanctity Aura, because that shows up on your character sheet specifically.

If anyone wanted to run this test again to back this up, that would rock.

2.3 Mana costs are:
Exorcism (Rank VII): 340 mana
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV): 440 mana

Consecrate mana costs remained constant.

Crusader Strike remained at 236 mana on both Live and the PTR (for myself) which somehow works out to be ~6% of my base mana (as opposed to the 8% that is advertised). I must have something wrong here, but the fact remains that the cost is constant.

Good post BTW.

Thanks, I'll go in and adjust all my numbers presently.

I just wish I had useful personal data to back it up, I've had the first theory for months, just variety of things have conspired against me to prevent me from having a WWS log really worth a damn, and now I'm guildless. :P

edit: updated based on new mana costs. Unless I'm crazy Exorcism is the same, HoW is now a good amount less and CS is a good amount more in MPS costs. Makes mana generation even more critical than before.

Ok, attempt to model WF in the spreadsheet is as follows, double check my thoughts:

Add 20% of whatever the original benefit of +dmg/str was (if WF is true) for the following abilities:

White DPS, SoB DPS, SoC DPS.

So for +dmg only SoC benefits to +dmg get a boost, for str +dmg gets a boost. The coefficients I get with WF on are .490719 SoB and .763424 SoC in terms of how much str 1 dmg is equal to. Again, assuming Kings and Enh shaman, without enh the numbers go up to .539791 and .839766. edit: fun fact, without WF, without enh shaman, +dmg exceeds the value of str for retadins using SoC assuming you can use Cons CS HoW SoC JoC every time without fail.

Once I make sure most of the basic assumptions are right and I didn't miss anything silly I'll upload the spreadsheet (anyone got a good method to do that?)

Do we have any idea what value to place for each state for purposes of itemization? For instance, the enhancement shaman thread gives fairly well tested values (2.0 str, 1.0 Ap, 1.61 crit, 1.17 hit I believe). I fully understand that STR would be the stat given the most weight (perhaps 2.2 based on the previous listed figures), while agi and crit would be fairly low. As a BE, haste is worth about the same as crit I believe, but I have no real idea on how to prioritize gear.

My guild is asking me to experiment with ret in 2.3, and I have access to any gear. What I am really asking for is item values to use with Lootzor I suppose. My ret gear has some BT trash drops, and pretty much the best from TK/SSC (1800 ap, 20 crit, some haste, and hit capped). I would think with the 8% crit in the ret tree that I would have 100% uptime with vengeance, and could just stack STR and haste.

I looked at T6 ret and it is underwhelming. Any geared ret paladins that can offer gear choices?

I managed to load a development version of OOo which runs some VB script stuff just fine. I did receive an error on enable macros, but the buttons actually worked. However, the calculations are still off, and I get a lot of 502 errors all over the place. This makes me think the errors there are independent of the actual macros.

I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.

The melee group makeup really depends on the total raid makeup, obviously you are looking at total raid dps. If one of the rogues is daggers they would be the first to go from that group probably, of course this assuming you can slot them in somewhere else with lotp,bs, tsa etc otherwise it's probably not worth it.

Have been spending some time this evening on the dps model.

Unfortunately most of that was spent on creating an "I Win" button in which it would analyse every combination of item to come out with the perfect gear. Unfortunately i overestimated the processing power of my computer and when the timer i had built in to keep track of it's progress told me i had 50 million millenia left until the calculation was done i decided it wasn't worth it. Even filtering out items < item level 140 still left me with an 80million combination / 37 day calculation.

On the plus side learnt some new coding, so implementing a nice new section which will compare individual items against all items of the same type in the database. Not a universal theory unfortunately but a nice extra. Will try to get it out tomorrow.

The problem with saying "JoW gives x mana per 5 seconds" is that JoW depends greatly on your rate of attack and the kinds of damage you're doing. In other words its entirely dependant on your raid makeup and the specs of everyone hitting the mob. I had a WWS a while back (I think its deleted by now) of a Mag raid where you can see just how much of a difference there is between say a mage (spamming spells) versus a spriest (dots and such). In fact, there are huge differences in spec as well, our destro lock had almost triple the procs as an affliction lock.

I think as a blanket statement you could say JoW restores a ton of mana. But coming up with exact numbers for every class and spec in the game, not counting outside variables, would be a very difficult if not impossible task.

Yes torch of the damned is better than cataclysm's. More so for SoC than SoB, but still better in both.


I'm guessing to work the mana % you calculated the 236 mana cost based on what you mana bar reads when you are completely nakes/untalented etc. However this is not Blizzard means by base mana. If you hover over you intellect when naked etc it will say "Increases mana by X". Take this number away from your mana pool to get your "base mana". This will probably correct the 6% to 8%


My model calculates increase in gains based on itemisation increase. Will try to pull out the comparison figures when i have a minute. General rule of thumb is max hit, get crit to keep veng up then max Str for SoC and Str/Haste for SoB.

Question - have we figured out yet if the new vindication change effects boss mobs? This is part of my case with my guild and trying to justify the use of a retadin in the guild. My guild is sorely short sighted when it comes to off-spec whatever you want to call it specs in a raiding environment.

I apologize if this is slightly off topic i'm not quite sure where else to put this. Im also on the pve ptr's and the pvp ptrs if someone wanted to run numbers with me. Im a BE as well.

That did it, thanks. Yes CS is still 8% of your base mana (well 7.991%, but close enough).

Nothing wrong with questions. And unless its changed significantly since I last checked Vindication only can affect mobs that are CCable. In other words, every time it would proc on a boss you'll just get a nice big "Immune" message.

That's perfect, thank you!

And this is why we should have little rule of thumb examples for everyone to see? They are hard to comprehend, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try dont you think? We dont need to give exact statement, we just need to give something that people can say they gain.

As I said, if you have better way of presenting it for common good, Im more than happy to hear.

I'm not saying its a bad idea or anything. I will try to get as much data from any fight I can keep Wisdom up for to make a list to help, and I suggest everyone else does the same. But if we're going to do this people need to understand that your mileage will vary by a great amount depending on your raid and the fight. The best I think would be to produce a range of values for each class, such as "you might get a high of x mp5 (tank and spank) to a low of y mp5 (fights where wisdom may not be up all the time/multiple mobs/etc)". It will be a ton of work to get data for most classes and specs, so it might be a while before we can get anything near definitive results.

Well all you need to do is see their prefered DPS cycles and see when their cycle resets. That way you know how many JoW proccing abilitys you have over period of time. For melee it isnt that simple, but for casters it is. Not like their spell rotations and spellcasts vary much.

Bleh, I've always been a fan of experimental data versus raw theory, but that would work. The only problem that I can see is that JoW is still a 50% proc chance rather than a PPM, so regardless of how we find the data it will end up being a range rather than a flat value.

But for producing 'ideal' regen from JoW, your system would work well Cromfel. I'll start looking into it.

Was wondering when a thread likes this will pop up on EJ

A couple things I noticed so far:

I think this is a bit too general of a statement to just put there, especially in an OP. It depends on so many things like gear (even "T5 level gear" can vary vastly. White damage boosting stats like AP vs spelldamage), group composition (drenai shammy = 1% spell hit), windfury and so on.

So just saying "it's 5% more damage in Tier 5 gear" is a bit off :P

Also consider with the PTR 2.3 change of Precision giving us 3% more spell hit, JoC might become a bit more powerful. Food for thought anyways.

I'd consider letting different paladins run some tests, (3 min tests are way too unreliable, you'd need to test over hours of combat) in different gear to see if you can reach a more reliable number.

Yeah you are right. We just need time to adjust things. Those were just few things I had in pocket as this topic was requested. So it will be adjusted to reflect better the actualy downranking benefits/losses, just give me some time.

Thanks for the input tho! This is exactly what we need to keep doing

I haven't noticed any extra damage on SoC hits. If you spec 0/3 crusade and hit SoC with a low range weapon, then spec 3/3 crusade your SoC hits will be exactly 3% higher.

Crusade is different to other DPS increasing talents though, it applies twice on crits. That's something that should be added to the DPS spreadsheet too. With 3/3 crusade our crit modifier is 106% and with 3/3 crusade and the meta gem it's 112%.

Ok, a few preliminary numbers I got for JoW. I looked around the boards for some basic attack rotation and speed information, but it may not all be accurate. These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missile x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages I assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

This is all I have time for right now, and yes they are the easiest classes and specs to do, but its late and I'm tired. I'll try to do more tomorrow. Between now and then feel free to contribute.

Ok now I actually finished reading the full thread since my initial reply (damn you people are busy!), some more things I noticed:

There's a thread here on EJ which concluded that most spells that are pre-TBC are based on the "base/un-hasted weapon speed" where as spells/effects which are post-TBC (or rather wow 2.0) are based on the "hasted weapon speed" to calculate the proc chance of the ppm.

As such, SoV and SoC would fall into two different categories. I'll check if I can get more in depth info on this, since it's just from memory atm, however I think it's a very important point, seeing as otherwise haste is basically almost worthless (in comparison to other stats) if it doesn't increase SoC chances (the 2% haste from Mongoose and hopes for increased SoC procs is one of the main reasons I got it on my Torch of the Damned).

As a ret paladin, windfury and especially enhancement shammies are your best friends. I strongly advise having one in your party, it's almost a must.

2h wielding (ret paladins/arms warriors) classes usually gain far more from WF than dual wielding ones (rogues/fury warriors). Checking damage meters (SW stats), my average damage from WF is ~12% where as rogues hover at about ~4-5% (used to be 7-8% pre WF nerf).

On top of that, Unleashed Rage (enhancement shammy only) pumps up your STR benefit to incredible heights, basically with Divine Str and BoK and Unleashed Rage up you're gaining a total of 2.662 AP per 1 point of STR. I think that's the highest gain from str of any class.


To answer your inital question: Ditch 1 warrior for you, raid benefit wise 1 ret paladin and 1 fury warrior is much better than 0 ret and 2 warriors. At the same time, WF is almost essential for you to perform well which should be a reason for your spot in that group. Improved Sanctity Aura, while not a flat out killer buff, serves for some bargaining rights.

So far my only problem was aggro from excessively streaky WF/SoC procs, but that's getting fixed with the threat reduction (\o/).

DPS rotations:

While what's posted here about 1/2 Imp Judgement is probably true on paper, I wonder how it holds up in practice.

In an actual encounter with moderate lag, having to cleanse/move on occasion, using consecrate (I personally do during AW or if my mana is good), wasting GCD on AW/DS and normal human reaction times surely it doesn't really matter that much in the long run? (Not that there's a killer need for that saved point anyway in Tier 1-2 ret tree).

Personally I try to keep SoC up all the time and try to delay JoC by 1 GCD if it's going to conflict with CS. However this happens only rarely, once every couple "rotations".

I guess I don't disagree with the theorycrafting, I just question its validity/benefit in real encounter situations.



Mana consumption:

Something I haven't really seen mentioned here explicitly: Alchemist's Stone.

Personally in most fights that don't have much AoE damage, I chug Super Mana Potions every cooldown, sometimes throw in a Fel Mana Potion instead if I'm really low and occasionally Dark Runes.

I've actually had very good results with Dreamless Sleep Potions in fights where you need to move back or have a couple seconds "aggro break".

With Alchemist's Stone, all of these (- the dark runes) give 40% more mana, Dreamless Sleep Potions which normally give 3600 mana (and HP) give you a fat 5040 mana/hp with Alchemist's Stone equipped.

Having all this extra mana gives me a lot of leeway in putting consecration into my spam rotations and has an even greater effect on undead/demon mobs where you can additionally use exorcism.

Also keep in mind Alchemist's Stone gives 15agi/15str/15int which all work towards our damage: 0.66% crit/36.3AP/~250 mana with kings and Div Str.

This aside, I've yet to compare which has the upper hand: "Real DPS trinket" (with a big static benefit like Bloodlust Brooch/Tsunami Talisman/MotB) + no consecration spam vs Alchemist's Stone + consecration spam.



JoW mana restored:

I might get some WWS logs going one our next raids and see how much mana is restored from JoW to everyone. This is definitely a good point for ret.


Hope all this spurs some further discussion

For a Fury Warrior 1 Strength on gear becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK, 1.1 Strength are 2.2 Attack Power which become 2.42 through Unleashed Rage and 2.662 through Improved Berserker Stance. So 1 Strength is 2.662 AP and 1 AP is 1.21 AP.
For a Druid in 2.2, 1 Strength becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK which becomes 1.133 Strength with that 3% stats talent which becomes 1.3596 Strength through Heart of the Wild in Cat Form equalling 2.7192 AP which become 2.99112 AP with Unleashed Rage.
For a Druid in 2.3, it's the same as a Fury Warrior plus 3%, resulting in 2.74186 AP per Strength on gear.
So it's definitely not the highest.

There actually might be a need for that point. Pursuit of Justice is an extra point, and 15% speed is attractive. If the new Vindication actually affects raid mobs (unlikely, but you never know), that might be worth taking as well. That means you might want to shift up to 6 points to Tier 3 Ret. Saving an unnecessary point on Imp Judgement could be handy.

Am I correct if I assume there's nothing like armor or boss level miss/dodge included in the spreadsheet? The Warrior and Rogue Spreadsheets use a base armor of around 7700 as far as I know and having armor in your spreadsheet as well would help with three things:
1. Cross-class-comparison on boss fights
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
3. The higher your target's armor, the more damage comes from your SoC/SoB in comparison to autoattack and CS, so 0 armor calculations aren't correct if you look at the value of stats like spell damage.

Ah forgot about Improved Zerker Stance. Consider it corrected to "amongst the highest gains from Str", point is it's fairly huge.


Yes, but unless you're getting 5/5 Imp Might as well as 5/5 Benediction, then you won't be able to put that point into any of Vindication/PoJ in the first place. You'll need to put it in Tier 1-2 ret to get to Tier 3 (which leaves you with 1/5 deflection or Imp BoM 1/5 which are both equally irrelevant).

And if you do take 5/5 Imp Might as well as 5/5 Benediction, then you'll lack the points to put in Vindication/PoJ anyway as well as all the useful stuff, so it's a moot point.

This is considering a standard (5/8/48 build).



So far I've neglected armor penetration simply based on the fact that with SoC our physical/holy damage (=armor unmitigated) is about a 50/50 - 60/40 split, so at most it'll benefit ~50%-60% of our damage. As such, given logic and stat value/item value, I've "assumed" that it's not worthwhile to pursue.

I'd be interested if theory crafting/number crunching can prove this logic wrong however.

I'm wondering if it's possible to skip Benediction (or take less than 5 points in it) without major ill effects. I find it difficult to take all the Ret talents I want since I still need Precision from Prot.

That's probably true but there are items like Madness of the Betrayer that could be worth taking at some point even though they have some stat points invested in armor penetration. Also the other two points still stand and armor would probably increase the value of spelldamage and, based on your spelldamage, crit. Armor shouldn't be too hard to implement either, just take the formula from WoWWiki and set the base armor to around 7700 which is the most bosses' armor.

The JoW numbers are using a spec that is about to be completely castrated, so they are completely unrealistic. A mage using full AM spam with MSD could get that much mana, but that's getting completely nerfed.

The JoL numbers look about right, are those including the UA bug or regular ticks?

I think you maths is a little off. Crusade isn't applying twice on crits. It's just increasing the value of the crit by 3%

Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit With Crusade = 103
Crit with Crusade = 206

Yes the "Base hit (100)" to "Crit with crusade(206)" is 106%, but this in no way implies crusade is applying twice, as 200 * 1.03 = 206 (still showing a 3% increase)


The spreadsheet is actually fairly comprehensive. It is modelled around a level 73 mob. Factors in miss/dodge/parry/glancing blows/resists/partial resists and armor levels.

The armor value is set at 6200 at the moment (most tbc bosses seem to have 6200/7700). However is the other spreadsheets are using 7700 will include that value.

The spreadheet i have factors in armour penetration. Hard to rate it in terms of itemization as no one know how many points of armour pen you get for 1 itemization point. Some items with armour pen seem to have their stats distributed well whilst others not so well. So best to look at it item by item.

I thought i had read the UA bug had been fixed now?

Assuming your raid uses CoR FF and sunders on bosses you should just change the armor value to 2190 or 3690 for real dps values.

The model factors in CoR/FF/Sunders/Armor Pen. These are not however in the Buff/Talents/Pots section to turn on/off (but will be there soon)

Do not think anyone has mentioned this recent information yet.

WoW Forums -> Retribution Threat Change
This should help a ton. 30% threat reduction is way more than what most classes get (although a lot get total threat dumps)

I am no ret guru but now you guys have threat reduction hopefully your raid viability will go up tons. I would still like to find out if Vindication affects bosses.

The UA bug has indeed been fixed now, but it's still a good thing to double check, since it's likely some WWS's will have Judgement of Light with the UA bug included from pre-2.2.

Edit: Though the numbers do seem about right in comparison to what I see in-game. Properly set up Assessment so it can track gains through JoL and JoW is nice for this kind of stuff.

Warrior + ench shaman + retri paladin all get that -30% treath reduction.

Shamans only get their reduction applied to white hits, windfury, and stormstrike. We get blanket threat reduction.

The Ideal Mp5 post has been updated. Arcane mages I'm not too sure of, their spell rotations vary greatly depending on group makeup and CC procs.

Sorry, Damn double post with edit

I suck!

Regular ticks.

And the mage part was 1st caster I checked for example. it would be good to have 3 most optimal cycles and their possible ticks for joW / second.

Figure that the average caster might get one spell every ~2-3 seconds. With a 50% proc rate, that's 10 procs a minute.

It doesn't work this way if you test it in game.

Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit with crusade = 103
Crit with crusade = 212

You can test it using a low damage range weapon. The rogue talent murder and the hunter slaying talents work the same way.

Well, we dont really care about assumptions. Its easy to check out from theorycraft posts for each class or just see one of the best Shadowpriest WWS logs for reference.

I noticed similar funkiness with crusade applying twice as well, although it wasn't specifically on crits, just specifically on SoC/SoB it appeared to be getting 2 applications.

Shadowpriest logs won't tell you anything, since you'll see the DoT ticks, then you have to guess how many spell casts were used, and how many of those were overlapping.

The fastest possible spellcasting is one every 1.5 seconds. No caster except a destruction warlock spamming searing pain comes anywhere near this.

Fire mages pretty much only chain cast fireball, with fireblast/scorch weaved in - the average is probably around 2.5 seconds.

Hunters get a huge bonus, due to their shot constantly triggering them.

Warlocks, depending on spec, are probably around ~2 seconds as well.

If you want a good back of the envolope calculation, 2 seconds as the exceptional case and 3 second as the lower case are good approximation for how often a caster hits a boss. Empirical data can be horrendously misleading if you don't know how to interpret it or don't know what you are looking it, as you did above with arcane missile spam.

I mentioned it in passing in my post but its absolutely essential to sustaining the mana generation I need to use the higher rotation I mentioned. Likewise though I have yet to see which is better a real DPS trinket or the Alchy stone. Seeing as how for me alchy stone is at least 88 dps (consecrate averages to 88 on most fights for me) + the stat bonuses I'd need to find a trinket that pushed 90 or more to do better.

Cromfel, if you could change your initial post to link this

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Changes:-

1) Mob's armour increased to 7700 from 6200 to be in line with other sheets
2) Sunder Armor/FaerieFire/CoR all included in the Talents/Buffs/Pots Section
3) Band of Eternity (exhaulted) proc included as an estimation

4) A New Tab called "Item Calc" is now in the database. Items selected from the character sheet will appear in purple boxes in this sheet. Clicking the "Analyse Items" button will check each item you have against each item in the database, and any items found in the database will appear below your selected item with a dps increase of that item over yours. NOTE:-

A) This is based on SoC rotation not SOB
B) Due to varying gem slots, it would provide a nightmare to code. The way it works is that it gets a base dps of your gear if it had +10Str gems into all your gems slots and then assumes the items it compares it with also are filled with +10Str gems. (I know this will add a little error into some of the differences, but far easier to code this way). Any enchants you have selected will of course be applied to the other items it compares your items to.

Yeah I updated the link

/cry

The macros now totally don't work (coming from version 8), even in the new tab! I'm mostly kidding, as I know it'd be hard to convert this entire thing to OO standards, but I just don't own a copy of Excel. Heh. Now the 502 errors are with the trinkets, and the rings. x_x

I don't suppose this would work if I installed IE and had an Excel viewer, would it? I'm not sure how limited support a viewer would have for macros, etc.

Crap, sorry cromfel, just as i uploaded it, i noticed an error in some of my codeing messing up imp totems. I quickly uploaded and edited the link before anyone would notice, but you beat me to it. Sorry. Mind editing link again. Thanks

Also working on collecting Data for JoW/JoL(in fact im currently analyzing different WWS Reports). I can post my result sometime during the weekend(lacking time lately tho).

Maybe Cromfel will be able to make a compilation of average benefit per class for these specific Jugement so we can have a kind of "Table" to show to our guild.

On a side note: The rogues in my guild usually scream of happiness when i drop jugement of light

I've done some testing of crusade and meta gem on the 2.3 PTR using a [Club]

RED meta gem, 0/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 224-226
crit - 463-466
modifier - 1.06

RED meta gem, 3/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 231-233
crit - 491-494
modifier - 1.12

It's the same for all other melee attacks.

Will try to adjust my model to take this into account. Is this doubling up effect due to a metagem/crusade interaction or is it still there when not using the crit modifier.

I didn't test it this time, but speccing 3/3 crusade and using no meta gem gives the same results as 0/3 crusade with the meta gem activated.
So you have
no meta, 0/3 crusade = 1.00
no meta, 3/3 crusade = 1.06
meta, 0/3 crusade = 1.06
meta, 3/3 crusade = 1.12

Could you try and get some data on SoB or SoC as well? I am convinced that it is getting more than 35/70% And I am talking non crits too.

Just finished catching up on the thread, and wanted to thank Cromfel for doing this, I am new to Retribution and every tool helps.

Onto the real meat of my post though, I was curious if any testings have gone into trying out the new Badges Libram [Libram of Divine Judgement] comparative to the usual [Libram of Avengement]. Particularly how it applies to Blood Elves. I know SoB is better than SoC in a pure dps measurement, but from what I understand this new libram might tip the scales, especially if your spamming rank 1 for mana efficiency?

I have yet to be able to get onto the PTR to test this, hopefully someone else can shed some light on the subject.

Bellator, no idea if anyone alerted you but now the macros don't work at all, at least on Excel 2003. Getting Error 1004 all the time and I have absolutely no idea what's causing this.

To avoid spamming the thread, I was waiting for an opportune time to mention this, but they don't even work in OOo anymore (or my Excel 2003 viewer, which is patched up to the latest). The buttons just don't do anything, and in OOo they give errors.

I was also wondering if people had tested the new librams vs the standard libram of avengement? Are they worth it?

I've been reading through this all day at work (shh don't tell the boss), and wanteed to thank everyone. I rolled ret for a long time, am currently tank, but going back to ret when 2.3 goes live (ret on pve test server), and i'm glad blizz is finally doing something for us.

New spreadsheet versions (recommend instead of older ones!)
Excel
Open Office

@Kris & Prepared

With regards the file not working in OO/Excel 2003 Viewer/Excel 2003, i'm at a loss.

Over the last few version i have completely re-written a lot of the code to make it simpler going forward for me to update the file. However the version of Excel I am using to create it is 2003 so Excel 2003 and Excel viewer should have no problem with it.

Have made some bug fixes and changed the way i have declared sub functions, so hopefully people will have some more joy with this version. Anyone who is able / not able to get this one to work, let me know and will try to get it resolved.

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

This version is just about as broken as the other, sadly. I did discover a difference between versions 8 and 14, which I have uploaded as HTML examples... just to show what it looks like on my end.

Version 8

Version 14

I hope that this visual helps somewhat!

PS: Do you think maybe we should make a separate thread about this, so we don't clutter all the theorycrafters?

When you add, you should add in stat weights for a mutually agreed on base stats like the enh shamans did, so the average joe (mid ssc/tk) can base their choices on a formula over what looks good. As well, think about adding popular builds/easy to obtain weapons since the questions will flood for information. You could probably just liberate most of the enh shaman thread and switch it to paladins values, Malan did a great job constructing it.

V15 of model Free file hosting by Savefile.com hopefully fixing the err:502

When i opened it, I ended up having to go into Tools>Macro>Security and lowering the level to Medium. That might be why your macro buttons don't work.

I recently picked up [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] and I am already looking at possible future upgrades. Would it be worth it to bid for [Leggings of Divine Retribution] or just wait for [Legguards of Endless Rage]? The greaves will have about 20 more STR after gems and I'm not familiar with how much armor penetration will affect retadin dps.

That's where my setting has been the entire time, and I do select to "enable macros". I didn't include the actual error because the dialog box loads weird on my computer at work, but once I am home I can edit this to reflect the actual error message.

This version is better. The ring and trinket errors are gone, but they still appear in the following rows:

Divine Strength
BoK
Librams
All DPS totals
All Stat totals under Information

So whatever you changed is on the right track!

So I have been playing around with numbers slightly in game, and was wondering if anyone is able to run or can link me to where there is a post about this following question/build (as i looked but couldn't find one)...

I was wondering what viability, (if any) there is to a spell damage ret build that has seal/judgment of righteousness as the main dps? something around 10/8/43 that maximizes holy damage done, and gets imp SoR and whatnot. then instead of using a power 2 handed use something like the sword of leo, and sheild off nightbane. (or the new 2 hander with 168 spell dmg coming from zul'aman). I am a prot pally, and currently my guilds MT, and we are just starting Mag/TK/SSC (Ive had plenty of experience in SSC/TK on my lock), and was wondering how that ret spell dmg ranks up in case I can go dps for a while if we get a better MT. with my rather lacking spell dmg gear, im around 650dmg unbuffed, but have almost enough crit and spell crit in that gear to have vengeance up 100% of the time with just melees and judgments... But I would really love to see the numbers done by an expert on how maximizing spell dmg and useing SoR would stack up to the standard 2-hander SoC build. I'm hoping that in the somewhat near future with new heroic loot I should be able to get around 850-900ish spell dmg while maintaining about 25% critrate after talents (which on a 1.8 weapon speed is usually good enough for vengeance). I know the white dmg is terrible, but does the spell damage make up for it with SoR/JoR/Crusader and if you got a SP in the group feeding you mana, and get another pally to JoW, consecration damage too...

Thanks in advanced for any and all help!

The answer all depends on your other gear. Leggings of Divine retribution are imo the best leggings in game if you are already hit capped. If you are not hit capped, the the legguards of endless rage are the better option

A couple of nifty resources for figuring this out, that I've seen:

Paladin DPS Calculator (javascript needed)

Paladin Holy DPS (this forum)

It seems to one of the large questions in the air right now is some kind of stat equivalency formula. I recently hit 70 on my new paladin (raided with a paladin pre-TBC) after raiding with a hunter up to SSC. I'm playing catchup on gear and occasionally I get the chance at a pretty big +spell dmg item which might be an upgrade over my current blue. After some extensive reading an number crunching, I'm almost entirely outfitted in melee plate.

My big question is what amount of +spell dmg would be equivalent to AP or STR? It's not a matter of "don't take it at all" but rather of finding it's relative value. Do I avoid all paladin Tier 4 gear in favor of melee plate? Probably not, but I have limited information for making those judgements.

What I'd really like to do is figure out some type of equivalency chart or table to compare stats to one another. What I'd love to do is figure out how much STR/AP a point of spell damage is worth and translate that into my comparisons.

Using the numbers from this site http://www.91nine.com/dps/paladin.php (I'm not sure how accurate they are) based off my current level of gear, adding the 30 spell damage from my Oathkeeper (oh so close to crafting my Thunder, stupid primals) over a baseline of no spell damage adds 3 DPS for 30 spell damage, or 1 DPS per 10 spell damage. That means each point of spell damage adds .1 DPS.

Using bellator's gear presets from his spreadsheet, the Tier 4 gear (including all the default buffs and with the sword replaced with a Hammer of the Naaru, since the above site doesn't model haste rating) I saw a pretty big variance when adding an additional 30 spell damage. The difference in DPS was 36.16, which meant that 1.2 DPS was added per point of spell damage. That means that at that level of gear spell damage is worth twelve times as much as it is in blues. That doesn't quite make sense to me.

I realized part of my mistake was that I was relying on one run through of the simulator. It turns out my tier 4 run through was a little high. The average with the additional 30 spell damage was more like 1260 instead of 1273. That's still a 23 DSP increase of the minor 3 DPS increase I saw at the blue level. Rerunning those numbers, I saw a shift when I ran the simulation six times and took the average. There was a 7 DPS difference at that point, which meant spell damage was worth .23 DPS a point. That's in sharp contrast to the .7 DPS that the averaged numbers give for the tier 4 set number, still.

I only got more confused when I tried the tier 5 gear numbers. This time the spell damage added .17 DPS per point, averaged over 6 simulations. This was less than the original blue numbers. /headasplode

Aside from simple needing to run these simulation more than 6 times (each which represents 5000 seconds of combat, which is 83 minutes) why the big difference in DPS added per point of spell damge? These numbers make it sound like there might be a bell curve in there somewhere.

Since I ran into this confusion, I never got around to testing how adding AP would work at each level, and thus don't have a ratio of how much Spell damage is worth compared to STR or AP.

Plugging my gear/short term wishlist into the spreadsheet for me it takes ~30 +dmg for a 10dps increase vs ~10str for the same dps increase, meaning +dmg is awful and I should stack str as much as possible.

However remember "warrior" style gear does not have int, +dmg gear does, so you will need need to wear some "paladin" style gear to give you a decent mana pool to work with.

PS: The spreadsheet is really coming along nicely, highly anticipating ac penetration being taken into account somehow and represented.

Cheers . Though AC Penetration is already in the sheet. It's the column "ArmP". Though it's not possible to put into the graph as no one knows how much Armor Penetration you get per itemisation point spent.

I did notice that the SOC rank 1 seemed to fall behind quite a bit in your calculations if you factor in time 5 minutes Vs 3 minutes? If they were both 5 minutes wouldn't SOC max rank far surpass the first rank? (Assuming of course you could sustain the mana cost)

I just think to say that there is such a small difference between them but only factor in 5 minutes Vs 3 minutes is a little misleading. (Raids may offer additional support.)

I am also wondering what you mean about the 8 second judgment? Do you mean to say that due to GCD it is nearly as beneficial to use 9 seconds?

I find the analysis very helpful though Cromfel ^^ thank you.

I would suggest if we are to put these measurements into an over time value we should try to pick a time and call it dps time or melee time. After an arbitrary number is chosen then you can extrapolate the number of attacks a certain class should reasonably have during that time. Base this on ideal weapon speeds (Such as roughly 3.6-3.8 for a ret paladin) for the class in question and figure out dps rotations that are most used by a certain spec that can trigger the judgments.

Forget about group buffs for now. So you'll be able to say such and such a class should be getting roughly at the least X health per second for 5 minutes of continuous melee.

I think such a unit would simplify the process. Its a lot easier to say you should be getting x health per second for every 5 minutes of continuous melee than to say this is how much you will get for a certain boss fight.

Although I have yet to test this for multiple hours, the small test I did do showed [Libram of Avengement] to fall behind the new libram by somewhere around 20 dps, with a judge every 8 seconds.

There is also a bug with the Libram of Avengement that makes it refresh itself whenever you would refresh Vengeance, which is quite an odd bug, that is quite in favor of this libram, but it still falls behind =\

Also, as I said I am still somewhat new to this whole Retribution thing, what exact cycle do most people use in actual raids, I understand that during a raid I would have a few buffs to improve my efficiency, but at a full burn with only Judgements / Crusader Strikes I was still going completely dry in 97(SOB) - 140 seconds(R1 SOC), and that doesnt include anything like Concecrates / Exorcisms.

Do most people not judge until their seal is about to fall off? Or is it usually accepted that it is worth it to keep up a libram buff?

That doesn't mean +dmg is awful at all. All it means is that damage and strength needs to be weighted. If I have a choice between 31 dmg and 10 strength, I take the dmg.

This comes into better contrast when you consider a piece of "ret" gear versus a piece of "warrior" gear. If the difference is 15 STR, but I get 20 INT and 30 spell damage instead, the only real difference is 20 INT for 5 STR, which is a switch I may be willing to take depending on my mana pool.

Blindly choosing to take melee only stats on gear is silly. The real goal is to maximize efficiency and DPS. Knowing how stats like spell damage play into that is important in understanding how this works.

The "StatMod" for AC penetration looks to be about 0.1 based on s3 gladiator gear (the same as the value for ac) if that's any use.

Mana potions: Comparing soloing to raid environment really doesn't work, since I doubt you use mana potions while grinding

Also if I'm grinding then I tend not to judge too excessively, but obviously use CS everytime it's up to conserve mana.

In a raid, you "must" judge and CS everytime they're up in order to have any hopes of offering competitive DPS.

However with raid damage (or SoB if you have it) and incoming heals coupled with Spiritual Attunement you get some more mana to work with. JoW from another paladin, BoW if you're lucky enough and have 4 or more paladins in raid, Mana Spring totem from the shammy in your group pretty much turn the tables on your lack of mana.

You should be spamming mana potions also and if you need it, get an Alchemist's Stone (check my post a few pages back).

I guess what you noticed while soloing is the horribly badly designed mana efficiency of ret paladins. We don't use much mana, but we also have almost no mana regen in our gear what so ever when we're on our own. Which is why in a raid with the above mentioned buffs it's like night and day (comparing soloing to raiding).


Oh and PVP with a private healer is awesome (=infinite mana)

About Str (and pure "warrior gear") vs Spelldamage ("ret gear"):

I'm sure it's beyond a doubt that if you compare point to point, STR is far superior, however:


This is exactly it, technically you could go for full out warrior gear, but you'll end up with a horribly small mana pool, which will be a big problem in most fights.



Bellator's spreadsheet:

I really appreciate the work in Bellator's spreadsheet, but I have to question the validity of some of the suggested "best DPS" items vs equivalent item value "ret gear" like Tier 6.

If you follow the above, I think the spreadsheet currently seems to miss any weight for int and/or mana regen that I can see.

Loading up v15 of the spreadsheet, SoC dps is 1412 DPS and 159 int for the "Tier 6" set and 1473 DPS and 85 int for the "Best of Best" profile.

Is a calculated ~60 DPS worth losing 74 int = 1221 mana (with BoK)? (And even more mana if you opt out for different bracers/belt than in the "Tier 6" profile for example).

In addition, items like the T6 pants have 9mp5 and the 2 set bonus (chance to gain 50 mana on melee hit) further add more mana efficiency, which is a hidden bonus which I'm not sure is considered in the spreadsheet.

I guess what I'm saying is: As an experiment of theoretical numbers, yes, this set offers more dps than that set. But in a realistic environment, which set would perform better?

The spreadsheet is definitely going the right way, but I think some weight should be added to int/mana regen, since I don't think it's possible to go all out warrior gear and not be completely mana starved.


Also, is there any way to check for an increase in the worth of spelldamage, depending on how much armor the boss/mob has?

Do other spreadsheets do this kind of weighing, for casters? I know the Moonkin DPS sheet has a table which says how much damage is expected for different cast cycles, and how long mana should last assuming certain facts about regen and buffs. Perhaps this would be easy to emulate for Paladin purposes, assuming no heals and thus no Spiritual Attunement?

I was checking some differences between JoW, JotC, BoW and BoM for damage gained compared to combat duration lost before running oom. I performed some Blasted Lands tests with each setup and then tried to reproduce the results in theoretical environment how things could be calculated without field tests. For theory I just used manaconsumption of each skill as if they were used instantly when CD was available. There was effect that I had to bend the results similiar to field tests trough spirit regen (By trying to assume effect of spirit regen). I kinda ran out of ways how to make this 100% accurate :P

Duration in seconds how long I could keep up the dps before running oom.

Regen: JoW/BoW/Spirit (For JoW I used PTR proc rates)



Here are some results. Im not really sure why the BoW+JotC combination was so much different from theory than it is with blasted lands test. Feel free to jump along if anyone wants to do this 100% accurately in meaning of optimal best case scenario in zero latency etc.

More JoW updates.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.

Again, I'll keep adding more as I can. If you see any glaring problems please speak up.

Guys remember that the max mana # is quite insiginificant compared to the mana regened in combat by all other factors, which makes int really not all that exciting as you're making it to be. I do agree at least an estimated conversion rate of spell damage->str should be made until we have a good spreadsheet where you can put your own gear and see exactly how much it converts to for you.

Once you enter BT and MH there's quite a lot of raid damage, so you regain a ton of mana from healing. I've had absolutely no problem maintaining a full CS+JoC cycle and I even squeeze an Exorcism from time to time. Once mana is not a problem spells like Exorcism and Consecration tip the scales a bit more in favor of spell damage, not enough to surpass strength of course but it still has some use.

The shadowpriest numbers look quite high. Did you include each tick of mindflay as procing JoW?

Even assuming the ideal case scenario of one tick/gcd, that would be around 50% chance of restoring 75 mana per 1.5 seconds, or 75 mana / 3, or 75 / 3 *5 mana per 5, roughly 125 mana/5. That's the complete utter highest number obtainable unless there is a flaw in my math.

Obviously, that's completely unrealistic, since no caster always casts one instant spell every GCD, although shadow priests get the closest if they don't use mindflay much. Arcane mages are the only class that gets above that, but they are gone in the next patch.

I guess my point was that despite a DPS spreadsheet being an excellent tool for theoretical purposes, it shouldn't be more than a guide rather than a rule since there's no weight on int/mana regen


A simple example would be a pure burn down fight with 0 incoming damage like Shade of Akama where you don't have enough time to take more than 1 single mana potion.

With full warrior gear. I guarantee you'll be reduced to autoattacking pretty fast.

Obviously the reverse is true at fights like Teron or Reliquary where there's lots of incoming damage.

Anyway, no one is saying you should stack int rather than damage stats, however I still believe some int is a must rather than all out warrior gear, and will gain better results on average.

The leeway to use consecration more often is definitely a very welcome plus.

Well, you can use hunter gear then, plenty of ap and crit + some int.

Yes, but it is AP and not Str, so it won't synergize as well with talents.

Why are people hell bent at escaping from actual ret gear. You know while spelldamage isn't the top dog stat, it's still very useful to have.

Anyway, I think this is digressing away from my original point which is evaluating the worth of "warrior gear" vs ret gear in practice rather than theory (spreadsheet).


What she said.

Because I do more damage with my T4 shoulders than I do with T5, just cause T5 has so many wasted points on Spell Damage.

T5 has "8" more spelldamage than T4 eh, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It also has 5 more str and ~0.2% more crit. The only thing T4 has that T5 doesn't is the hit rating, so unless you need that hit rating to get over the hit cap and are missing while wearing T5, T4 is inferior in every way.

I think it's better to stop pursuing this argument at this point in order not to derail the thread

There has been a little talk lately about Int/Mp5 and it's effect on dps. I thought i would give you my TC on Int/Mp5 and why i have chosed to ignore is as a weighting in my spreadsheet.

1)In any given fight a paldin uses X amount of mana per second through his abilities (SoC/JoC/CS). He also gains Y mana per second through BoW/JoW/Mana Potting. If for any given dps rotation....

Mana Pool - (Fight Duration in seconds * (Y-X) > 0

...then the paladin will not run out of mana during the fight

2) The absolute minimum rotation a paladin must do is to keep SoC uptime at 100% and use CS on cooldown. Using version 16 (hopefully released later tofay) of my calculation you can see that with Bow/JoW/Mana pots this is easily obtainable in 0mp5 gear. Because of this, the dps gain mp5 will give you is from allowing you to judge at a more regular interval or allowing you to use other abilities such as exorcism.

3) So lets look at two example of Mp5 increasing dps:-

A) I plugged in a tier 5 set with 0 mp5. I found out that it enabled me to keep CS/SoC up and judge SoC every 15.85 seconds keeping mana lost/gained equal. To reduce this to a 9 sec judgement took 50.9mp5 and produced a 45.5dps increase. If this Mp5 was itemised as strength then you would get 127.25 Strength would have increased dps by 76.7.

B) Now let's look at Exorcism. 1Mp5 allows you to cast 1 exorcism every 1700 seconds for an average hit of 985 (with 200 spell damage + jotc). This works out at 0.58 dps per 1mp5. Since 1 Mp5 would give you 2.5 strength which equates to roughtly 1.5dps increase. Again mp5 is far less effective than strength.

4) As a quick note, i have focused on Mp5. Since 1Mp5 = 2.5int, after Bok etc have been taken into account 1Mp5 produces more mana than Int after 3min20sec. Since most fights are longer than this, i have used Mp5 in the calculations above as it is the stonger of the two stats.

Conclusion:-

What this all means is that whilst Int /Mp5 do have an effect on dps, the gains by putting the stats elsewhere (str/crit) is far greater. However in terms of gear selection, some items such as lightbringer may work out to produce a higher dps output than warrior equivalent gear due to the fact that it allows you to alter your playstyle to include more JoC etc into your rotation. This however is impossible to model as the model is based upon fixed gear/buff/playstyle. It would be a nightmare to model playstyle based on mana/int.

However in the next version of the model that should come out later today there will be an ability to alter your playstlyle slightly, there will be a mana analysis and there along with the dps output there will be a time till OOM, so you can adjust gear/playstle until you get the right combination of dps and time till OOM.

Would it be possible for Bellator to include (improved)SoR in his DPS spreadsheet ?

The reason why I ask that is the recent tests we did me and our resident ret paladin on the 2.3 PTR with the blasted land immortal mob :

We tried different setups, but generally we had all the PVE ret talents but I was using improved SoR and him SoC:
- my stats on the PTR in DPS gear with BoM and full stacks of darkmoon card crusade buffs are around 1400 attack power, +650 spell damage, around 23% melee crit, 13% spell crit. I was swinging Bloodmoon
- my friends stats with BoM and full stacks of darkmoon card crusade buffs are around 2200 attack power, +280 spell damage, 30% melee crit, 8% spell crit, he's using worldbreaker.

[EDIT detailled gear]
- My DPS gear consisted of the following parts:

- T4 ret helm enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- honor spell damage neck gemmed in spell damage
- Arena S1 ret shoulder and chest enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- honor S1 ret bracer enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- Arena S3 ret gloves, unenchanted or T4 ret gloves enchanted in spell damage (I tried both)
- honor S2 ret belt
- Arena S2 ret legs enchanted in spell damage
- honer S2 ret boots
- 2 spell damage rings (exalted Kara and another random one from Kara)
- darkmoon card crusade
- heroic badges spell damage trincket
- bloodmoon
- new SoR libram (I usually used libram of Zeal, but this new one seems better).

- My SoC friend gear is the following:

- 4 Arena S2 ret pieces enchanted and gemmed in strength/melee crit
- Blacksmith T3 chest
- Worldbreaker with savagery
- neck from SSC, 1 epic melee ring from SSC, 1 from exalted Shatar.
- bracers from Lurker
- crafted belft from SSC
- Honor S2 ret boots
- darkmoon card crusade
- +70 AP and haste on use blue trincket from mechanar.
- libram from blood furnace heroic.

[/EDIT]

The tests consisted on going all out while we were not oom (JoCr and JoW on the mob, so it lasted around 5 minutes), we both used concecration rank 1 in the rotations, we used all the trinckets, wings and everything when possible.

Using this setup, I constantly outDPS him by between 50 and 100 dps. My DPS using ImpSoR was around 1000 dps. My average SoR proc is around 900 (using the new SoR libram), my average normal JoR is around 1340, our average CS are about the same (around 1150).

Another thing we tried is adding an elemental shamy (so, no unleashed rage) in the group, when he used grace of air, my DPS advantage increased to +150 DPS compared to my friend. When he used WF then my SoC friend managed to finally outdps me by around 40 DPS ... For my SoR spec, the DPS increase of grace of air or WF was about the same.

I know that this mob is far from being a raid boss, that's why I think it would help the theorycrafting if Bellator could add SoR in his DPS spreadsheet

Quick question on your testing: Which one of you had more threat, or was it about even? Reason I ask is parries, though probably very uncommon for a mob that low, would skew the numbers, even slightly. Not to mention that is a fairly short sample time, in my opinion. Can you also post the builds used, for my curiousity? I can't see where the five points would come from, to put into Imp. SoR to make this viable.

Djardin can you tell me what kind of equip you use?

- I edited my original post to detail my gear and my friend gear (I was swinging bloodmoon and not mooncleaver).
- I tanked all the tries we did by using rigteous fury (Omen said I was doing around 1300 TPS /flex .

Hi guys,

I have upgraded my Dps model. It can be found here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

This has lots of new functionality, so I will try to explain the model as much as possible here. Worth reading even if you have come to grips with previos version

1) The first section "Dps and Skill Overview" gives an overview of the different abilities used, their base mana cost, mana per second usage (mps) and dps contribution. Along with it is the overall dps and a new "Time till Out of Mana" figure

2) Below this is the "Information" section which gives stat data based on gear buffs etc. It now includes some information on mana.

3) The "Gear" section below this allows you to select your gear from the item in the database. By clicking the "Show Detail" button shows the gem/enchant slots and lets you select them. "Strength gems" button fills all your sockets with strength gems and "Correct Gems" fills all the sockets with the best gems to ensure the gem socket bonus is obtained. As usual you can save/load/delete gear profiles (some are already included)

4) "Talents/Buffs/Pots" section below this allows as always to turn on off various talents/buffs/pots

5) "Playstyle / Mana Info" is a NEW section which allows you to adjust various aspects of your playstyle / talents which effect the mana usage. This includes:-

A) Benedition - allows you to set how many talent points you have here
B) Sanctified Judgement - allows you to set how many talent points you have here (only 0,3 are options atm)
C) Rank of SoC Used - self explanatory
D) How Judgement is used - Gives 3 options. "On Cooldown" means you will judge whenever possible do that it does not interfer with SoC uptime or CS. "Every 30 seconds" means you judge every 30seconds and refresh seal. "Never" means you simply refresh seal every 30 seconds.
D) Blessing of Wisdom / JoW / Mana Pots on CoolDown / Shadow priest allow you to set how your group/buffs/pot usage is.

Below this it shows you your Mp5 from gear, total mps in, total mps out and an overal mps gain/loss

6) Just below this is a "Judgement CD Override". When this is turned on it allows you to set a specific time in seconds between each judgement.

What sections 5 & 6 allow you to do is check out the difference between dps gear with and without mp5/int. If you gear up with warrior and then switch to a play style which allows you to not go OOM, you can then put on int/mp5 gear and adjust the playstyle (more JoC's etc) to allow for the increased mana, and thus compare the different overall dps output of the two styles.

7) Finally there the graph section. The graph will only show either SoC or SoB as specified by the option. There is also an option to state how many armour penetration rating you get for 1 itemisation point (since this value is currently unknown). Pressing the button will show your overall dps increase as you spend itemization points in the various stats.

On the right hand side is the SEP (Strength Equivalence Points) of the various stats. It used 1 Strength as the base, and shows how much of each other stat is needed to obtain the same dps increase.

8) Finally, on the item calc sheet is a button which will work out various upgrades based on the buffs/items/playstyle selected.

....Thank you for your time


Some quick side notes:-

1) I know some people are having problems with the sheet in OOM etc. Unfortunately i do not have the time to learn how these various programs deal with VBA code. Whilst i will fix any bugs that occur, I don't have the time to ensure the spreadsheet is compatible with every program that can open it

2) SoB is not fully implemented in some of these calculations (ie the OOM figure) If i get the time, i will try to make it as functional for SoB as it is for SoC

3) If i get time i will include SoR. However i very much doubt i will have time and it is very low on my priority list as i can guarentee a str/ap SoC build in a raid environment will beat SoR ten times out of ten. My apologies.

Bellator, no idea how you changed things, but now the 1004 error when clicking the "Graph Calc" button is gone. If only you could make the same change for the other buttons it'd make the chart working for all of us unfortunate enough to be stuck with Excel 2003

I have no trouble using any of the buttons or charts in Excel 2003, FWIW.

Kris, try updating your version of Excel 2003. The file was created in Excel 2003 (11.5612..6412)

Bellator, it looks like you were on track for the changes for the 502 errors (I could really care less about the buttons, except that's it's annoying that I can't socket any gems). Why the sudden change?

Also, v17 for some reason popped up at the start with: "This file contains links to other files. Should they be updated?"

I told it "no" because it was different than the others.

For some reason, the Shoulder section has s1 and s2 chest pieces instead of shoulders.

Also, the trinket section is mising the skyguard exalted dps trinket.
Missing crafted weapons from weapons section.

I fully agree on that.


I personally think this is an unacceptable minimum, I set my minimum at judging JoC on every cooldown, for the damage and especially to make use of libram effects (whether the +2.4% crit from avengement or the 200 AP from the PTR libram).

However, this is obviously a matter of choice/opinions.

I agree with the rest of your post, as long as the point is brought across that one should not blindly pile on the damage stats without considering mana, I'm happy


On another note, bellator, I have to say I'm impressed by the notes on the new version, much respect for your work mate

I'll check it out when I get home.

Btw: Does the new spreadsheet account for the loss of libram effectiveness if you don't judge on every cooldown?

You guys should consider testing on the Halaa guards instead of Blasted Lands mobs. Even as a shaman with only ~5k armor, my healing stream totem (ticks for ~49? every 2 seconds) is enough to keep me alive for quite a long while (10+ minutes), and the Halaa guards have a ridiculous amount of health.

This is still on my list of things to do. I've just put it off as it involves tediously going through the entire code and replacing 'blanks' with 0's :p

Will be fixed in next version

I felt the trinket was more of a grinding trinket, but may add it in next version. Will try to get some of the craftable weapons/armour added in.


Cheers Avitus. Hopefully the new features will allow you to see the effects of int/mp5 etc on longevity ets. And yes, loss of libram effectivess is factored in.


On another note, can someone confirm which of the following abilities do/do not proc JoW, as want to confirm my calcs are correct:-

Melee,SoC,JoC,SoB,JoC,CS,WF attack.

Cheers

Someone also pointed out to me that Libram of Divine judgement is also being applied in my model to SoB dps when the tooltip only mentions SoC. The way everything is coded makes it a complete pain to remove this error. Best work around is just not to equip it when looking at SoB dps.

If you can tell me which "blanks" need to be left alone, I can go ahead and do it myself, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm not here to debate coding progress; after all, most of it's not even commented. :P

Can any BE confirm Requitals report of JoB being based on melee hit unlike JoC that is based on spell hit?

Can anyone tell me if Dragonspine Trophy is worth using for a BE paladin? May sound noobish but im not the greatest with numbers!

Ok, I was under the assumption that Mind Flay can proc JoW each tick of damage (like AM). If not the numbers will be much lower, I'll go ahead and update the list then. Thank you.

In 5 WWS (around 2000 JoB's) I only had partial resists - I never actually had a full resist, which I think is what would show up if I 'missed'. I had around 2% partial resist.

In that same 5 WWS series I had less than 100 JoC's and missed 10%, and about 2% partial resist.

Not such a fantastic number of samples, but as a comparison they're interesting. I'll try to actually test this tonight - someone earlier suggested using halaa guards. I'm not sure how forgiving the alliance will be for my testing, but I might try those since it involves hit.

ret pallies suck, l2heal imo and let a dps or tanking warrior have ur spot

But I doubt a Warrior can Bless, keep Judgements up, provide 2% damage for his group, and give raidwide 3% crit while maintaining reasonable DPS.

Don't feed the trolls.

Updated the JoW list to include what I think is about right for Enhancement Shamans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from items (Dragonspine Trophy proc), are not considered into the calculations. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Lightning Overload assumed perfect 20% proc rate

Enhancement (Duel Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Enhancement (2 Handed)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 102.78 Mp5

Windfury Weapon assumed perfect 20% proc rate on both weapons
Shocks assumed to have nontalented 6 second cooldown

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.

The new 30% threat reduction and precision change got patched in today on the PTR!

Gonna do some testing.

If Lightning Overload (36-40 point talent) can proc JoW then you can effectively increase this number by 20% over time. I'm not sure if it does though.

Edit: Nevermind, Blizzard decided it would be cute and let me actually log onto the PTR with an old build. Way to go!

If anyone can confirm this it would be excellent. For now I will recalculate as it seems logical.

EDIT: The new PTR build is up in the states, but there are still a few connection issues. The queue is also at a record low so I would copy now if you want to check out the threat reduction.

900-950 dps in Blasted Lands with S2/3 PVP Gear and S2 Sword (only BoM/Crusader), up to 1100 dps with rang 1 concecration and AV with all out.

I'm an update freak, using the latest from everything, Excel v. 11.8169.8172 SP3

Since people keep talking about using consecration in the dps cycle, i thought i'd do some testing on this ability to see exactly how it works to perhaps include it in the model. From the testing i conducted the mechanics seem fubar. Can someone please confirm this:-

1) When it comes to normal spell damage from gear, the min rank does not get the same 0.95 coefficient as the max rank. There is scaleing involved. However the extra damage caused is modified by things such as sanctity aura, crusade etc.

2) When it comes to spell damage from JotC there is no scaleing, and the 219 is multiplied by 0.95 coefficient even at min rank. However, the extra damage this generates is not modified by things such as sanctity aura, crusade etc.

You can see the modifiers effecting different types of spell damage by:-
A) Put on SpDam gear, dont judge mob, pop consecration then pop AW and see the ticks go up by 30%
B) dont wear SpDam gear but judge the mob, pop consecration then pop AW and you will see the ticks dont go up by 30%

When I tried this out with SoR, the increased damage from JotC was being effected by multipliers, but not consecration. So this leaves me with 2 questions.

1) Why does Jotc +spdamage not scale like spdam on gear when it comes to downranking
2) Why does The extra consecration damage from +dmg get damage modifiers applied to it, but not extra damage from jotc

This just seemed really weird to me, however i ran the tests multiple times and came to these same conclusions. Can anyone verify these conclusions? Cheers

I don't know if it's a bug (probably is), but on the PTR the General's Scaled Greaves have got +12 agility on top of the previous stats (nothing reduced).
I checked the Veteran's and they remained unchanged.

Edit: wow that was a really stupid thing to say, forgot about the enchant

Its the enchant that is now shown white.

@Cromfel


SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn

This numbers were posted by you at the beginning. I did some testings myself and I was oom after 1 m 48 - 1 m 53 sec with 6843 mana

5 Tests
dps 918-983
melee 40-44 %
SoC 16-21 %
CS 26-30 %
JoC 10-12 %

1 m 51 sec theor. 18 CS and 13 JoC - I managed 17 CS and 11 JoC - that means 4012 + 3982-( 119x11)=6683 mana spent -> 60,2 mana/sec

There is a difference between % dmg of CS and SoC, this can result from my faster weapon pvp S2 Sword.
The biggest issue is mana, your fight lasted 3 min vs my fight 1m 51 sec. I have 60,2 mana/sec and you 45 mana/sec



Edit: I use PVP S2/3 Gear with BT haste Ring and SSC Neck and PVP S2 Sword->no mp5

A comment on this.

Many Marksmanship and Survival hunters don't do a straight Autoshot and Special shot rotation, which is what among hunters is refered to a 1:1 rotation. It's quite common to do a rotation where you do a special shot after every second Steady Shot., which is called a 1:1.5.

Example: Autoshot, Steady shot, Special Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot

Assuming 0 latency, you can do this without losing time to autoshot clipping.

This means that instead of hitting with 4 shots every 5 seconds, you will hit 5 shots during the same time which should increase the gains of JoW.

I will go tonight and perform serie of tests, lets say 10 tests and see how it goes.

Thanks, and I went ahead and updated the numbers.

Here is todays test. This one didnt contain any manaregen from JoW, BoW or mana potions. I will do similiar test for JoW+BoW also later.

Anyone tried seal of blood in place of SoC?

It gives more mana in PVE since we are costantly take damage so healer must put on us some HOT giving us more mana to use our spells

Is that duration in... seconds?

Yes

Oh, nevermind. I see where I was confused. I wasn't expecting commas.

That about matches up to my numbers, time-wise, and I am wearing a few hunter pieces on the PTR because I haven't been building my set. I'm guessing I need to hammer our Holy Paladins upside the head until they place Wisdom on bosses from now on.

Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.

But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!

The spreadheet does not current incorporate ring enchants (the main reason being the spreadsheet was intended for personal use only and i'm not an enchaner). It's Something i'll try to get in a later version. In the mean time, the best way to test these out is to edit the "base stats" section accordingly.

As for +weapon damage, this is not included in the model. I'm thinking of doing so, so that i can include sharpening stones etc, but unfortunatelt time is limited for me over the next couple of weeks.

Manually change the stats of the weapon to take the +4 weapon damage into account?

UPDATE: Boomkin, protadins and retnoobs.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. All talents/abilities are patch 2.3 versions.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Lightning Overload assumed perfect 20% proc rate

Enhancement (Duel Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Enhancement (2 Handed)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 102.78 Mp5

Windfury Weapon assumed perfect 20% proc rate on both weapons
Shocks assumed to have nontalented 6 second cooldown

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Druid
Moonkin
Typical Rotation: Insect Swarm, Moonfire, Starfire x3, Wrath, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 123.33 Mp5

Paladin
Protection
Typical Rotation: Judgement, Consecrate, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Typical Rotation: Crusader Strike, Judgement, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 97.37 Mp5

Judgement assumed talented 8 second cooldown

Note that I really have no idea what the spell rotation is for actual Boomkin druids, I just looked up what I would think would be a decent rotation. If anyone can find some real information regarding their spells it would be most appreciated. All I have left to do is Warlocks now (which I am not looking forward to doing).

I think for many fights it's not a discussion about JoW being good or not, it's about how useful is helping keeping it up rather than having a holy pally stop healing every <20s to do it not to mention stay in melee range.

The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).

With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Based on the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet, I think I found an accurate way for us to calculate the value of Mongoose.
Can SoB proc Mongoose is the real question, though.

Did you factor in Flurry? (Weapon attack speed becomes 2.0).

As a holy pally I can say that keeping any judgement up on a boss is a pain in the ass (for lack of a better term). As a holy pally your job is to heal, and most of the time we're more worried about keeping people alive than keeping a judgement up (which leads to shouts of "why isn't wisdom up?!?!?!" from the casters). Being a holy pally refreshing judgements isn't impossible, but it cuts into your healing a lot, and on most fights in the game the sacrifice isn't worth it. You spend a huge amount of time running in, trying to hit a boss (since you have no melee hit rating its a pain), and finally running out.

The 'death' of ret utility because SC is being moved to be in range of the other specs is unfounded. Yes, there will be some raidbitch holydins who pick it up. But in all honesty most holy pallys go for Imp. Conc Aura (because it really is that good, even in PvE) over anything in the ret tree. Protection pallys are in a much better position to grab it, but their tree is so bloated to begin with there isn't much they can move to put 3 into it. So it still remains a mainly ret talent, just a little higher in the tree.

No, I didn't use any haste effects whatsoever to make the math simpler and for it to apply to more situations. Since flurry is a proc on crit it can have a much different uptime based on each person's crit percentage/luck, and it was just easier to assume it doesn't exist.

Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests from ZA? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.

Every test that I have done in remotely competitive raids indicate that we are doing pretty well. Its very hard for Retribution Paladin to find well geared raid without predjudice, as majority of these unfortunately plain ignore us. But best shots I have was some german group who had BT/Hyjal level fury warrior, 2 T5 level rogues and BT/Hyjal level tanks I was competing just fine in DPS with everyone else.

Its just real pain in the ass to find good group where you can go all out.

Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...

Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.

From what I've been reading on these forums more often than not they do their best to keep JoW up so it *is* usually the case of letting the pally spend more time healing rather than being the deciding factor if JoW is going to be up there. And for those fights the actual effectiveness of JoW is irrelevent for how good the ret pally is. Then again when you have 3 judgements worth keeping up having a ret pally keep them up with crusader strike saves the time for 3 healers from keeping judgements up, which can be estimated in terms of benefit to healing. However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.

It also decreases Silence/Interrupt duration, allowing the Paladin and his group members to come out of AE silences to get important heals on the tank earlier.

Concentration Aura is additive, not multiplicative. The untalented aura plus Spiritual Focus is enough to avoid all spell knockbacks.

Argh regearing is really sucking, I am trying to get at least full blues before 2.3 hits. Almost all the ret gear is from instances and noone will really take a ret paladin to any instance. I picked up Hammer of Naaru, my t4 helm, and some other random gear from before when I was healing. I am trying to get as much gear from quartermasters as possible. My guild muted me for respecing to ret.

I'll answer your post for now, but this thread is about retribution theorycrafting in raids, not the merits of Improved Concentration Aura and Judgement. If you would like to discuss this further please take it to PM's, I'll be happy to argue to your heart's content.

Because Auras effect your entire party. There are a lot of classes out there who don't get nice talented pushback resistance (Shadow Priests especially come to mind) and that 50% is huge with the amount of AoE damage in the current game. Not to mention the 30% duration reduction of all silence effects on anyone under the effect of Concentration Aura. This is 30% less time you have to spend silenced, and there are a lot of bosses out there where those 2 seconds can make the difference between a kill and a dead tank.

Its also nice for those of us who like to PvP in our off time, since it is the aura of choice there.

Oh and you almost never use Devo in a raid unless you're the Main Tank pally. The extra 900 armor won't save a clothie from anything.

Wrong.

DPS lost? I think we already proved a long long time ago that a ret pally brings more to a raid than a third warlock or rogue (if anyone could find the numbers back in the old thread that would actually be a nice addition to the main post). Regardless, a holy pally can put and keep up any judgement he feels like. However, its not economical or even safe under a lot of circumstances to have a healer out jumping around reapplying a judgement every 18 seconds when you could have someone reapplying it for him every 6 while retaining a competitive level of continuous DPS.

I'm not saying "you have to have a ret pally to get Judgement of Wisdom". You can get this from any pally. But chances are if you have a ret pally in your guild you will see these numbers a lot more often than if you just run with holydins.

Great news for those who had problems with Excel 2003 (or me at least ). Go to Options->Transition and check Transition Formula Entry. Somehow all the formulas start working

I ran ZA Sunday with a well geared Retrib paladin (S2 glad set, Storm Herald and a lot of plate items from Hyjal/BT). The raid setup wasn't optimal (only 1 paladin which means no blessing of might or king).
We had a good melee group (Def warrior, fury warrio, feral druid, Retribution paladin, and me as an enhancement shaman droping wf all the time).

On most single target encounter, the retribution paladin and me had a very similar dps.
I was going all out (full Shock and stormstrike rotation, trinket whenever up).
The paladin told me he was still holding back, with the lag the tanks couldn't generate as much threat as they Should.
Moreover, the paladin was using jugement of wisdom, being the only paladin in the raid he needed it to be able to keep his mana up.

I think that with a more optimal setup and beter threat from the tank He should be able to outdps me (save for mana problems).

Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?

So still the devo pally of the MT won't lose anything speccing out of imp conc aura for the 3% raid crit. And you generally run with a pally in the MT group, don't you? In such case the effectiveness of concentration aura isn't even relevant.

The bottom line is that in the fights where the holy (and prot...) pallies can keep the judgements up, the only DPS the ret pally brings to the raid above his own is the 2% aura to his party... I had yet to see the theorycraft that shows that 2% extra damage to party makes up for the lack of ret pally DPS. Still waiting to see a high-quality spreadsheet (of a level such as leulier's warlock sheet) to know for sure. Anyway the point is that in those fights the benefit of having the ret pally is having 2-3 healers spending more time healing and less time in melee range.

Granted there are fights where not having a ret pally simply means no judgements, and in those fights you can completely ignore my comments, but those fights are far from being all fights and afaik not even close to being the majority.

Huh, never noticed this before: Mana Restore 2 - Spells - World of Warcraft


15% proc rate on 150~ mana, or roughly 23~ mana per spell cast. I know it works off of Judgement and Consecrate, but I don't think it triggers from CS or SoC (typical abilities used by a Ret paladin)


I don't think it will give you much mana for typical Ret ability use. Good trinket for leveling or at L70 if you don't have anything better, but quite replaceable.

I find it pretty hard to fit Consecrate into my rotation as it is, just by virtue of global cooldowns and not wanting to skip a CS or queuing up SoC before my weapon swing is due. So that would probably lower its effectiveness right there. Unless it's each consecrate tick (which I doubt) it might not be worth it.

Still, interesting find, and definitely a good trinket choice for a Paladin in place like Kara, I think, where there's lots of chances to use Exorcism for extra damage, to balance out the mana cost.

The pally/shaman Mark of Vindication has an internal cooldown, making it much less awesome than it initially appears to be.

I thought the same for a long while and then actually noticed how little power gain it yeilded in a WWS.

I'm assuming your impression here is because you're either at the start of or not yet in t5 content though. Paladin healing is really... lame at best in t6, most of the time, and it starts to really hurt a bit later at the end of t5.

Switching to a holy/ret/prot dynamic for your three blessings lets you free up healer slots for the more effective PvE healing Druids, Shamans, and Priests.

There's still situations where an Imp. LoH in the raid is useful on the tank (prefiring for Reliquary p3 comes to mind), but most of the time nowadays the only things a holy paladin brings that another healer wouldn't is his LoH and possibly a Devo aura for the tank, but he likely needs a shadowpriest anyway to keep up with the real healers on a tank if he isn't meter farming the raid damage that lifebloom and chain heal should be healing.

I don't see anything about the internal cooldown. Can you tell me what the timer on it is? Because, really, if anywhere close to an interval or 8 or 10, it shouldn't affect the numbers that greatly.

And this will especially be true in 2.3. I'm still not totally sold on whether a retadin will be worth bring to raids yet, until I see some decent numbers on PTR on test. I'm just a skeptic of everything until I see hard proof. :p

Didnt got the time to test stuff on the PTR yet but im wondering about something.

Does Vindication(the one from the 2.3 build) affect non-players mobs(non-boss)? I know about the story of raw stats, etc... but i need a confirmation on that. If i remember correctly when i was able to log-in 5-10min on the PTR last week, i attacked a mobs with a mana pool and i noticed the mana pool cap was lowered by the Vindication debuff. Didnt had enough time to test if the hp pool cap got lowered too.

Also, IF it work on non-players mobs, are the trash in ZA all immune to this debuff?

Another question totally out of subject is: Do you know the existence of an addons that will keep track of the jugement debuff on my target? Even if the jugement are not from me? Something to filter out and tell me if JoW/JoL/JoTC are still up etc... I know some paladin in my guild interested to find an addon like this.

Thanks in advance.

I believe if you search for filter debuffon on curse you'll get what you're looking for. Works like a charm for keeping track of jol/jow/jotc.

Copied from my post in the paladin tanking thread:

From my very, very brief time in ZA, I noticed it proc on some of the humanoid mobs. I noticed because it was showing "IMMUNE" on other mobs (the trolls on bear mounts).

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already (I did some searches and found nothing) comparing the [Vengeful Gladiator's Bonegrinder]/[Vengeful Gladiator's Decapitator]/[Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword] to the [Torch of the Damned] or [Cataclysm's Edge].

Anyone ran the numbers yet? It seems like the S3 weapons would at least come close, with the extra crit, hit, and armor penetration.

disregard

Crusader Strike is normalized. Go buy a weapon from the starting areas (for the really low damage range) to test it.

It's actually the best since it's base weapon speed is 3.8, which means it gets the most from Attack Power.

When I was looking at weapons, I noticed Soul Clever actually was about the same as Cataclysm's Edge in terms of DPS. When you factor the new 1% crit racial, however, Cataclysm wins.

Didn't someone say SoC works on a PPM basis which means it has a higher % proc chance per hit with a slower weapon, resulting in a bigger DPS increase on slower weapons?
Of course if it's wrong and SoC is on a fixed % and not PPM, and if CS is also normalized, then weapon speed means nothing except a small difference in judgement of wisdom procs. In this case only average weapon damage and DPS matter.
If SoC is PPM and/or CS is not normalized then slower weapon speed has its own value on top of the value of average damage and DPS, as it would increase SoC proc rate and/or the AP bonus CS gets.

Hm... I could have sworn they werent' normalized at some point. If they are normalized now, can you tell me for what speed? I'm gonna need to adjust my models.

Seal of Command is PPM, and has a higher chance to proc with slower weapons.
Seal of Command Proc Chance Each Swing:
Weapon speed * 6.8 / 60

Crusader Strike is Normalized to 3.3.

Weapon speed still matters, because it still determines the benefit we get from AP on our Attacks (White and SoC namely). When AP is getting up into the 4k Raid Buffed range, a 3.8 speed weapon will do a lot more than a 3.5 speed one.

Sorry, should have said I am assuming SoB.

If CS was ever un-normalized, it was before 2.0 went live, because that's when I tested it.

My testing showed 3.3 for 2H weapons and 2.4 for 1H weapons , just like warrior/rogues.



It shouldn't matter for white damage, unless you're talking about Windfury.


Otherwise, spot on.

How does it matter for windfury if I don't have enough haste to trigger the internal cooldown (which I believe to be 3 seconds)

Weapon speed does not affect white damage's benefit from AP. Whatever your weapon speed is, AP gives the same DPS bonus to white damage.

Abilities that grant free attacks (Windfury, SoC) get greater benefits (per hit) from slower weapon speeds. Though now that I think about it, Windfury is a fixed 20% procrate, so it doesn't even matter what weapon speed you have.


Also, the Windfury internal cooldown applies to the weapon enchant only, AFAIK. (Shaman-only issue)

Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.

With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.

If my CS produces less/equal damage than my autoattack (With 200ish spell damage) its pretty safe to say its normalized.

I changed G47 in DPS_Calc to:

[top](Character!W70*Character!V70+0.4*Character!L7+IF(K20

"Yes",18,0)+(Character!F4+Character!F5)/14*3.3)

G48 to

[top](C47+Character!F6/14*3.3)*(G17-P9)*G6*G7*G8*G9*P22*IF(K21

"Yes",105%,100%)

If this is correct, then Cataclysm comes barely out on top again.

Vindication procs on any mob that is CCable. I ZA I would see it go onto the mobs that I could stun, but get immune messages for those that are immune to stun (bears and lookouts).

In all honesty I wasn't paying enough attention to notice any differences in mob health other than what my pretty criticals were doing, so I can't really help on the issue of whether Vindication is the new ret raid utility or not. It still seems like a mainly PvP talent to me though.

Another thing that is sort of related to Ret right now is public awareness that Ret is actually fairly good dps. Im sure its going to be hard to find a good guild that will be aware of the benefits of ret paladins. How are you current paladins getting spots in raids?, and how many ret paladins are they bringing? I don't want to spend all this time gearing to find out that noone will take me.

I would imagine it's going to be big problems for many ret paladins to find good guilds to join up with. Long after 2.3 gets pushed live the stigma of lolret will still be there in many people. However after 2.3 gets pushed live with these changes, WWS reports will soon be put out showing what ret paladins can really do in a stacked meele group with threat reduction. Hopefully many raid leaders will realize the worth of a ret paladin. I'm a holy paladin right now and I plan to spec and raid ret as soon as 2.3 gets pushed live. I just cant see a reason for not bringing one, provided they're in a proper support group they should do very competitive dps. The biggest thing as a ret paladin looking to get into a solid raiding guild is that you're going to have to be a damn good player to prove your worth. I know that this is the same case with all classes, but we're working from the ground up here, if you're going to botch encounters or not come prepared I'm sure it's going to be rough. I say keep doing what you're doing, gearing yourself up, just remember you're going to have to go that extra mile to prove your worth.

For how many ret paladins people are bringing/going to bring. The answer is simple, one. There's no reason at all for more ret paladins, unless maybe you don't have any holy/prot paladins to provide additional blessings.

To touch on the discussion on the previous pages, on certain fights keeping up judgments is just not an easy thing to do as a holy paladin. For certain fights like bloodboil or achimonde keeping judgments up reliably is just not possible without sacrificing multiple GCD's or time running in and out of range.

Another thing is that when 2.3 goes live and shamans/druids/priests healers all get substantially buffed along with the down ranking nerf to holy paladins we really are going to be the least desirable healer to bring but of course you still need blessings, so bringing a ret to cover one of those blessings is allowing room for more tree druid/shaman/priest healers.

I tested CS on the 2.3 PTR and it is normalized to 3.3 for 2H and 2.4 for 1H weapons.

I am not trying to be cynical, but it is a lot more likely that guilds are going to allow long time players who have proven their loyalty to try out the fun new offspecs before recruiting new retribution paladins, so this change is more likely to impact a lot of holy paladins who are currently in guild but want to have a chance at a different role or a burnt out on healing.

Something I noticed about Bellator's spreadsheet - there's no Meta Gem requirement checks (IE, full socketing with 10str gems allows 12agi 3% crit to be active).

Unless I'm not reading the spreadsheet formula correctly, JotC is not currently being added to crusader strike. In game the total JotC damage is added to your spelldamage, reduced to 40% then added to weapon damage.
(normalized weapon damage + 0.4*( spell damage + JotC ))

That is correct. Codeing meta gems checks is a pain.

The spreadsheet is not including JotC damage in CS. Can anyone confirm that it is counted as part of the spell damage? Reason i ask is when i first tested CS (a long while back) CS did not benefit from JotC. If anyone can confirm the change, i'll fix


Also, does anyone have any confirmation on my consecration mechanics i noticed. Them being:-
A) The extra damage from Jotc does not scale (ie is not reduced) like spdam on gear when it comes to downranking consecration (can be tested by noticing the increase in tick is the same for min and max rank consecration with 0 SpD and JotC on target)
B) The extra consecration damage caused from +dmg on gear gets modifiers applied to it but not the extra damage from jotc (can be tested by judging targets, casting consecration and then using AW....tick does not go up 30%)

The effect of slow weapons on CS damage isn't direct. The higher CS damage is because of the higher weapon damage, not because of the slow speed. A 100-200 weapon would always do more CS damage than a 80-180 weapon, no matter what their speed is. Of course 2 weapons with the same DPS will have a better weapon speed if they're slower, but the reason for the extra CS damage is the extra weapon damage and not the speed.

For SoC you get a direct benefit from having a slow weapon - the proc is based on weapon damage/ap, so if the proc was a fixed % (like WF), it wouldn't matter what speed you have. Since slower means higher proc % it means slower weapons automatically proc more.

In reality DPS speed and damage are related since given 2 of them you could calculate the 3rd. However when calculating DPS done with a weapon and how much DPS you'd gain from each attribute changing I find it easier to treat each stat for itself - check how much damage you lose by speeding up the weapon, how much damage you gain by increasing DPS and how much damage you gain by increasing the average weapon damage. Then when you change a weapon, sum up the DPS differences and see if it's really better or not. At least I think that would be the easiest way to calculate and compare weapons in a definite way.

As a general guidline, though, since SoC is PPM based obviously with equal level weapons the slower weapon wins.

I'm getting a chance because I was a very strong Ret player pre-BC, through all raids up to a few bosses into BWL, and because my guild has come to the point where I'm not the "token Prot Paladin" anymore. It used to be so bad, that half the night I was the only Paladin in a raid. That was pretty much unacceptable, but nowadays I have more freedom to experiment.

The caveat being that I have to spend all my time farming Heroics for and bid DKP to roll on DPS items until patch time, so that I'm not two raid zones of gear behind everyone else. I'm out to be competitive, not just viable. I plan to report on my findings once I've run a few raids.

My tests from a long while back show that CS does benefit from JotC... (Using low damage range weapon on various EPL mobs, if I remember right)



A. JotC affects R1 Consecrate and JoC R1, and I think it has no downranking penalty.


I'm not sure about B.

That brings up a different question - what are the coefficients for the various abilities that we can downrank? I've tested Consecrate and JoC, but I've never looked at

HoW
Exorcism
Holy Wrath


With the reduced mana costs in 2.3, certain ranks might be mana efficient enough to incorporate into a DPS cycle vs. demon/undead/wounded targets.

You can get DeMon, the recently released next-generation version of pDebuffFilter. It lets you manually add debuffs to track.

Mine watches for the presence of all four "debuff" judgements and Scorpid Sting, in addition to all the normal stuff.

Do we have any accepted set value for each stat point? I am particularly trying to assign weight to -ac and haste. I am not very good with Excel or I would just pull the formulas out of the spreadsheet Bellator has kindly made.

I don't want to grab a ton of armor penetration warrior gear if it doesn't benefit me very much. But in using Bellator's spreadsheet, a few items really jump out as clear upgrades. For instance, I will probably craft some BT bracers...Bellator has the mail bracers outpreforming the plate bracers by 3dps.

And in terms of the weapon, I thought the ret community had the torch far and away the best weapon (by 15dps or so). Yet I am now reading the sword actually outperforms the mace?

I can appreciate some uncertainty; I just want to know if the model is off before I spend dkp on all these items.

Where did you find the addon? I can't seem to locate it anywhere. Something like this would actually merit a close inspection if it works well.

If not you can always do what I so and just use NECB to monitor your judgement. Once you CS they'll all be on the same timer anyway.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it on the Ace site.

EDIT 2: WowAce Downloads Download it from there.

Do you have a link to this addon? I can't seem to find it on any of the addon sites.

Thanks!

Rough numbers for SoB are:-

1 Str = 2.2 AP = 1.1 Agility = 1.1 Crit = 1.0 Haste = 8 Armour Pen = 3 +Dmg

Hit rating not included in this, but is greater than all if not hit capped.

And yes, the mail bracers are outperforming the plate ones.

In terms of weapons, for SoC torch of the damned is definately the best. The model suggests the sword is marginally better for SoB, however i'm an alliance paladin, so not 100% sure on all the SoB calculations, but i think they are fairly accurate

In general the model is pretty accurate. I know of a couple of minor errors which need correcting, but shouldnt change the outcome of anything. Feel free to ask about any particular items you were looking at,

Okay, so as you can see from the title, I'm a weaponsmith. Only 275 at the moment, but that's beside the point. What I'm trying to ask is this. Is it better for a retribution paladin, who is planning to be used mainly for PvE, to choose Swordsmith, Hammersmith, or Axesmith. The biggest reason I need to know, is for the 2-handed weapon that I could use from each mastery. Obviously, I can only choose one, and I would like to know which one would benefit me the best. Here are the stats of each of these 2-handed weapons:

Bloodmoon 2-handed Axe
375-564 damage Speed 3.70
(126.9 damage per second)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 56.
Equip: Increases attack power by 112.

Lionheart Executioner 2-handed Sword
365-549 damage Speed 3.60
(126.9 damage per second)
+52 Strength
+44 Agility
Equip: Increases your chance to resist Fear effects by 8%.
Chance on hit: Increases Strength by 100 for 10 seconds.

Stormherald 2-handed Mace
386-579 damage Speed 3.80
(127.0 damage per second)
+42 Strength
+42 Agility
+61 Stamina
Chance on hit: Stuns target for 4 seconds.

I managed to get my spot in the raiding scene because one of my friends holds a lot of influence with our guild and he managed to convince all the officers of the guild that a retribution paladin would be very helpful to the entire raid, as well as capable dps. That's how my spot has been secured. But I agree with you. Ret pallies are now making their own way in the World, but it'll be a while yet before they are generally accepted as capable dps, able to match those classes that are actually designed for dps, no matter what spec (i.e. rogue, hunter, mage, etc.)

Mazrimtaim, the S3 arena sword & mace will easily surpass T3 versions of the crafted weapons.. Get into arena asap and start generating points for next season.. Then can skip leveling smithing, farming heroic's for primal nether's and waiting for 8? nether vortex' from 25 mans.

At 1500 5v5 rating it's about ~5 weeks to get 1850 for a 2h, ~4 weeks at 1600...and so on. It's going to be alot faster and cheaper than smithing for you..

Vengeful Gladiator's Bonegrinder - Items - World of Warcraft
Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword - Items - World of Warcraft

Season 3 weapons also require a reasonable time investment as well as a personal rating of 1850. In all honesty I would still go for either the Skillherald of the LHE. The Axe is (IMO) a purely hunter weapon, so the choice between the other two is up to you. The sword is marginally better for PvE in raw stats, and its proc is very good, but the extra stamina on SH comes in useful as well.

Its also 5 vortexes and 8 nethers. Not hard to do at all if you're into tier 5 content.

He's lvl 66 according to armory atm

Thanks. That helps out a lot in making my decision.

I'm having a hard time deciding if I want to invest points in Season 3 pieces when the patch hits, or just get Season 2 now. I qualify for most pieces except shoulders (2,000 personal rating -_-), and looking at the difference, I can't tell if - assuming all other gear is T5 level, which would benefit me more.

I tallied up the differences...going from S2 to S3:

Armor: +492
Strength: -29
Stamina: +7
Intellect: +6
Spell Damage: +1
Armor Penetration: 252
Hit Rating: +36
Crit Rating: -4
Resilience: +160

Also the bonus of SotC +20 versus 5% to Crusader Strike. It sounds really hot, but at the same time I can't really use the spreadsheet to weight the loss of crit and STR too well. :\

The S2 and S3 gloves have almost the exact same same stats (Season 3 having +1 STAM, +3 INT, -3 Spell Damage, +26 Resil compared to Season 2), but the new bonus effect alone makes up for it. Testing it on the PTR's I could see a noticeable increase in my DPS (not huge, but not small either). So even if you decide just to grab the Season 2 stuff, I would at least get the Vengeful gloves.

Prepared, the latest version of the spreadsheet has the S2 and S3 items listed, so you should be able to compare them. As flyingroastr said, the gloves are grear. Pluggin in tier 6 gear with tier 4 gloves, then running the upgrade analysis, the tier 3 gloves run out big winners. The spreadsheet doesnt have the tier 2 bonus, but there is no way it will make up for the tier 3 bonus

Some numbers from the 2.3 ptr:

792 AP 0 spell damage max rank JotC and using a [Shortsword]
Average CS = 171 against blasted lands mob with 24% damage reduction.

171/(1-0.24) = 1.2 * 2.6 + ( 792 / 14 ) * 2.4 + 219 * X
X = 0.39
Close enough to 40%.

so i'm levelling a paladin, an alt so going for retry no brainer.
i started as bs, cuz i was looking for skillherald. then i turned for lionheart, i think that's better for pve raiding. now i'm dubious again. i am wandering if it's the case to go armorsmith for imba chest and take khorium champion or singing crystal axe.

so this is due to the fact that i won't have much chances to get vortexes as i won't be able to go retry in 25 men raids. so i would have to stop to t2 weapons for some time. then despair would be better i think, and that's quite obtainable.

also bulwark is much better than exile, and the latter is a bit rare. also only 2 vortexes are easier than 5^^. so i thought to go for bulwark+khorium champion rather than lionheart+(maybe)exile. so first question.

khorium champion or singing crystal axe?
the former has a realy imba proc, if it would be 1ppm it would rock.
singing crystal axe is 37% faster attacks for 10 sec so 1 more swing per proc.
125 str = 250 ap (18 dps) for 30 secs = 540 without procs
1 swing = 1k dmg (roughly) again withot proc.
procwise the latter is clearly better (but doesn't count 5 crusader strikes and dmg improvement from sob-soc, so i can say they are nearly good enough, khorium has 50 more str on its side, too. and it's crafted rather than random drop so more easily obtainable)

then bulwark+boe weapon or t2 weapon (lionheart i'd say)?

mongoose or savagery?

and last but not at all least. i'm collecting blessing cards while leveling up. it would be a stunning 120 ap and 80 spelldmg trinket. rocks hard imho for retradin. question is, does the spelldmg part of trinket take charges from consecration ticks or cast? anyway it fades in 10 secs so i can judge again before it fades, but if i could use consacrate rank1 in its place it would be a nice addition to my dmg (i would go for soc rather than sob in that case i think, as from what i know sob cannot crit (right?) and gets much more dmg from spelldmg)

thx for replies guys

As my request to incorporate SoR to the DPS spreadsheet didn't receive any favorable echo, I'll try to discuss the scaling of a impSoR ret build compared to a SoC one per item point:

All the maths assume melee hit capped, dodge/parry is discussable, let's assume it affects both SoR and SoC the same way and is ignorable. Vengeance is ignored in all the maths as in its 2.3 state, it can be estimated constantly on 3 stacks even for a SoR build. Sanctity aura is up. Crusade, imp sanctity aura should affect both spec the same way.

Assuming divine strength, bok, enleashed rage, 1 strength = 2.662 AP = 1 item point
1 SD = 0.85 item point.

so, in cost, 1 item point = 2.662 AP = 1.176 SD, it gives us 1 SD = 2.26 AP.

let's estimate the value of a +100 SD upgrade for a impSoR build:

auto attack = 0 DPS
CS 0.4*100/6 = 6.66 DPS
SoR 0.11*100*1.15*1.1 = 13.91 DPS
JoR 0.73*100/8*1.15*1.1 = 11.54 DPS

Total with 2H spec = 33.34 DPS


let's see how good scales a SoC build with +226 AP:

auto attack 226/14 = 16.14 DPS
CS 226/14*3.3/6 = 8.88 DPS
SoC 6.8*(3.8*226/14*0.7)/60*1.1 = 5.35 DPS
JoC = 0 DPS

Total with 2H spec = 32.19 DPS

Please check my math, I hope this could motivate Bellator to add SoR in his spreadsheet
I would love to see the effect of melee crits, spell hits, glancing blows, partial resist, etc on a SoR build, but if you add concecration in the equation, I think an impSoR build can perfectly compete with a SoC build.

I can't compare them, because the spreadsheet doesn't work. OpenOffice, remember? :P

I see no mention of SoR's hit rate in those calculations, which would be divided by 3.8 with that same weapon unless I'm reading wrong?

Yes, I'm getting 13.915 additional damage per hit divided by 3.8 is 3.6 DPS? Or am I wrong here.

SoR spell damage contribution is 11% per second. That's why I don't have to factor in weapon speed to compute a DPS. And yeah, I used 3.8 weapon speed for SoC DPS evaluation.

I originally leveled up my paladin as Protection to AoE grind my way to 70, then went holy to heal in raids. With all of the changes coming for Retribution, I have been slowly putting together a Retribution set when the opportunities come up. It's not quite there yet, as I still have some holes to fill, but it's getting there. I have always thought having one Ret Pally in a raid would be a great asset, but it's an uphill battle trying to convince people that still have the lolRet mentality.

Anyways, back to the topic of weapons. I currently have the [Hammer of the Naaru], enchanted with Savagery and socketed with 3 [Bold Living Ruby]. I know it's not the best weapon out there for a Ret Pally, but do you think it's good enough to raid at the SSC/TK level as Ret? I don't want to go into a raid as Ret when I get the rest of my gear with a lackluster weapon. I know the S3 stuff is very good, but I am just a casual PvPer, and my personal rating will probably never be high enough to get the S3 Sword or Mace.

If the weapon I have is not good enough, what should I be trying to get? I could probably save enough arena points for the [Merciless Gladiator's Bonegrinder], would that be a big upgrade from the [Hammer of the Naaru]?

Thanks for your advice!

The Hammer of the Naaru is a good raiding Ret weapon. Not the best, but good. I don't think it's a bad place to start at all if you're just stepping into SSC/TK. Aside from crafting and arenas, you're not going to get much better before SSC/TK anyways.

The only other comparable weapon you'd have access to stepping into the beginning of SSC/TK that's not a craftable or PvP weapon is [Gorehowl], to my knowledge. Prince Malchezaar awaits!

First off I'd like to say thanks for the great thread, there's lots of good information here so keep it up.

Now, my question is, after seeing the new Arena Season 3 Scaled Gloves, I've been curious as to if they would viable over other gloves you would find in Hyjal / Black Temple, if not just for the 5% Damage to Crusader Strike, which is a lot of damage, especially on criticals. Would [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] be preferred over other drops, such as [Pillager's Gauntlets] or [Grips of Silent Justice]? I know both of the other alternatives have hit rating on them, while the Gladiator piece doesnt, but the Gladiator also has Critical Strike rating whereas the other two pieces don't. I know Haste and Armor Ignoring are two stats that are commonly talked about in terms of viability for Paladins, but would the Season 3 gloves be worth the loss of Strength, Hit, Haste or Armor Penetration, for the return of 5% Crusader Strike?

I see, I wasn't aware it scaled like that. However it still doesn't take into account that to properly scale all involved attacks with crit, you need two seperate stats that are rarely on the same gear and in addition, despite SoR's considerable scaling it does not scale at all with raid buffs.

SoC, by comparison, will exceed what I consider to be give or take the maximum effective spell power of a Retribution paladin at around 2200AP and will continue scaling up to raid level attack powers of 3000+. Add on the critical hit problem (where SoC for me can have anything up to a 45% crit rate on raids at a 2X multipler) and SoR gets left far behind.

Might be interesting to see, but the real world implications of actually effectively using SoR would be too severe. I suspect that's why it's not really been given a huge amount of consideration.

Well, we are 6/6 in SSC and 3/4 in TK [Kael is a jerkface], so we're not exactly stepping into those zones. We really don't run Kara anymore, so I am trying my best to finagle [World Breaker] now that I think most of our raiding warriors have it. So I am playing catch up gear-wise, and am trying my best to become viable for where we are now. If I am not lucky with [World Breaker], do you think the S2 arena mace should be my goal?

If you're trying to gear up as Ret, I'd strongly consider running through HKM/Gruul with another raid group whenever you get the chance. There are 5-6 pretty good pieces in there that would make your life easier while you wait for SSC drops.

After sharding that stuff for a few weeks, I finally started raiding on my paladin and haven't seen any of it since. I'm hoping Thursday is a big one for me and I pick up new bracers, gloves, shoulders, and legs (and maybe even a Hammer of the Naaru while I continue to work on upgrading my Thunder). It's embarassing to have an Armory like mine even though we just killed Hydross. People are beginning to talk.

I would love to jump into Gruul's sometime, but most guilds that are still running that will have people that need that dps gear, and my chances would be pretty low. And we raid Sun-Thur, finding time to run more raids is going to be difficult. I've gotten a couple trash drops and what-not from SSC/TK already([Bands of the Celestial Archer]), so I'm hoping I won't have to run places we took off the calendar if I can help it.

I'd say s2 bonegrinder would be a great option if you can't grab World Breaker. I'm holding out hope for a World Breaker myself, going to fight a fury warrior to the death for it - he wants a PvP toy.

Someone mentioned running Gruul's Lair to grab some pieces and catch up - I'd suggest getting your craftables on as well. I don't know your paladin's gear level, but [Black Felsteel Bracers] are great, you can live with a Ragesteel Breastplate for a while, a [Red Belt of Battle] would be awesome if you can beg and plead for some vortexes, and depending on your profession, other various pieces. I myself am an engineer, so I got some nice goggles.

It's rough out there, good luck getting your drops!

Thanks for the tips! I am definitely going to try and sweet talk a [Red Belt of Battle] out of our GM when we have enough Vortexes and people's mains are taken care of. I am getting the Ragesteel Shoulders and Breastplate crafted as soon as I finish getting the rest of the mats together.

Has anyone managed a WWS parse yet on the PTR by any miracle? I really want to see Crusader Strike in our 25 man raids in the worst way and I'm dealing with all the assorted bigotry and general misinformed stupidity within my guild at the moment.

What I wouldn't give for JoL, JoW AND JoTC up on bosses. It'd make my life tanking so much easier.

I had a parse of my guild's attempts at ZA but I seem to have misplaced it (oddly not on my WWS account or my hard drive). If I find it I'll post it here, but if not I was doing about the damage of our resident fury warrior. We both had Windfury and Unleashed rage, neither had might (since I was the only pally in raid). The only problem that I noticed was mana constraints, which I could have easily compensated for by actually remembering to copy over my bank character so I had some mana pots. The only time I came close to pulling aggro on a boss is when I had Heroism and Avenging Wrath active at the same time.

Thats the best I can give you right now, if I head there again I'll record it. I'm sure someone else has a log though.

Thanks for the information. This all feels in line with what I'm thinking, but I have to start putting together consistent, irrefutable evidence backed up by hard numbers that show bringing a retadin in will help us. I've already started grabbing quotes (such as the JoW math) from this thread and posting it, but until I get some parses in a raid environment, I'm wasting my time. Worse, I'm subjecting myself to the ravings of a very negative crowd; one warrior in particular who's crying because he knows damn well ret's time has come.

I personally stuck with girdle of tidal call, I like having SOME int on my gear; I start to feel antsy if i'm under 6k unbuffed.

There's probably some mathematical flaw there, but I'm not terribly worried about it. I know JoW is the big part of sustainability after all, and actual mana pool is fairly irrelevant. I really don't like having a 5k or less mana pool though.

Weaponwise, I should be getting a Torch in the near future to upgrade from my own World Breaker. Glory awaits!

Bellator- Thank you for the spreadsheet, I'm having a great time playing around with it.

Question: Why are some of the entries in the hidden "DPS" sheet bolded?

edit:
1. Also, is it possible to include weapon speed/topend in while rating an item in the DPS sheet? I'm using the sheet to plan gear upgrades and such.
2. stats on the Crystalforge War-Helm are way off.
3. hmm, higher rating doesn't necessarily translate into higher SoC DPS. crap. how did you come up with the stat weightings in cells DPS!AM4:AM13?

New 2.3 Notes for the last build to go up on the PTR's had a few small changes to paladins.

-Paladin seals no longer have a low chance to be dispelled if you have 3 points in Sanctified Seals.
-Judgement of Wisdom: It is no longer possible for the mana energize effect to trigger off of reapplication of the Judgement of Wisdom.
-Divine Favor: When this ability is cast immediately after a critical heal, it will no longer be removed incorrectly.
-Fanaticism (Retribution) now also reduces threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%.
-Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
-Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased.
-Spiritual Attunement: This ability will now gain mana properly from Vampiric Embrace heals

I'll do the warlock JoW stuff tonight. I promise.

Here are some of my PTR WWS logs. Needles to say its much of pain to find proper random groups to even try out anything. Usually it ends up splatter with those blue geared tanks

Cromfel.Battlefield.fi - 2.3 Windfury Test PTR

Hi everyone. I don't feel like creating a new thread for it so I'm just gonna ask here: As anyone tried Executionner on a ret weapon? On s3 set we're getting a lot of ignore armor (and on officials forums, lots of ret are despising it apparently), and there's some end game piece we can definitly use with this "new" stat.

Soo.. I know our rogues feels like mongooze will still be better for them. But what about ret pals? Is this new enchant better than mong? (or savagery btw) Anybody tried it himself already? If not I'll try to post some stats myself before the end of the week... I'll try.

Judging by what we know of armor penetration for ret pallys (it only effects a portion of our damage), I'm going to say that Savagery is still the best weapon enchant for us. Executioner seems like a mainly rogue and warrior enchant, as they have much more to gain from armor penetration than ret pallys (all of their damage, excluding posions, are physical and thus mitigated by armor). I don't have any data at the moment to back this up, but if history proves true then Executioner will be a distant 3rd in useful ret pally enchants (Savagery > Mongoose > Executioner).

I have some from ZA if you are interested.

Wow Web Stats
Loading...

Actually I put my model for Mongoose into Bellator's DPS spreadsheet, and it's coming out about 10DPS above Savagery.
(for SoC)
Agility_Equivalency = 120*Proc_Uptime
Proc_Uptime=(1-(1-(Attack_Speed/60))^(15*(Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec+Insant_Hits_Per_Sec)))
Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec=1/Attack_Speed*(1-Miss_Chance-Dodge_Chance)
Dodge_Chance=5.6-(Expertise*0.25)/100
Instant_Hits_Per_Sec=((6.8+10+7)/60)*1.2

Of course this doesn't take into consideration Mongoose refreshing itself prematurely, but I don't see that dropping its value that far.

Interesting, to say the least. If this is true then we have a lot of changes to make to the standard model for Ret Paladins. As far back as I can remember we've been considering Savagery as a better sustained DPS enchant than Mongoose until a certain point where crit becomes greater than AP for DPS (I think it was somewhere around 2000 AP). I'd be interested in seeing some more on this (as we should be compiling a list of preferred enchants for the main page as well). If I can find a reasonably priced enchanter on the PTR's I'll try to get some preliminary reports of comparisons between the two.

Haven't had time to post for a while, so here's a bunch of things, nice to see this threat is flourishing:

bellator's spreadsheet:

I'm using v17 which I assume is the newest one currently.

Done some more testing and noticed the following "bugs":

-Merciless Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece is listing wrong stats.
-Turning "Vengeance" on/off (or taking different ranks) seems to have no effect on DPS
-Turning "Crusader Strike" on/off has no effect on DPS
(I know it's most probably never the case that you won't have those talents, but I'd like to see just how much they do add)
-Graph calc seems to work fine on Excel 2003, but takes an infinitely long time on my main PC running Excel 2007. Not that important I guess, but maybe you have an idea why



Also I'm wondering if the following could be added, they're just suggestions, though I feel they'd really move this spreadsheet one notch further towards completeness:

-[Alchemist's Stone], I know I've used this all the way up to Illidan, I'd love if it can be implemented in the spreadsheet. Also if the Equip Bonus can be considered in the "Time till OOM" calculation. This way we can finally see how valuable or negligible this trinket really is vs a "real" DPS trinket.

-Mongoose as an enchant is missing? I've hit over 2k self buffed AP with T6 gear giving tons of STR, so using mongoose to boost my crit was an option. Any chance this could be added? Would love to see if Savagery still pulls ahead or not with high AP gear.

-[Glyph of the Outcast], the no.1 choice for ret paladins if you're over the hit cap already. I'm using it currently until the next patch hits (and human racial is butchered). Gives slightly more AP since it's pure STR and int instead of the hit.

-[Formula: Enchant Boots - Surefooted], going to be a possible enchant come next patch to meet the hit cap.

-Also possibly Boar's Speed/Fortitude boot enchants for those of us who don't take dexterity (12 agi), it's currently not possible to turn that off even.

-T6 2 set bonus as part of the "time till OOM" calculation as I guess this will be the aim for many paladins for their endgame sets. I've personally experienced a rough 20% proc rate when checking logs.

-Blood Frenzy, I think this is a farily important raid buff that needs to be added. It's used extensively in my guild.

-Ferocious Inspiration, any chance that can be added as one of the group buffs? According to our main Beast Mastery hunter it's up pretty much 90%-100% of the time once frenzy goes off and then throughout the fight.

-Expose Weakness, we also use this very frequently in my guild. I guess this one is a bit harder to implement, since it depends on how much Agi your hunter in question has, but according to one of our hunters it adds roughly 220 AP to all melee for a hunter in mostly T6 gear.


Thanks for all the hard work, let me know if you need a hand with the testing/debugging.

Slight tangent - anyone have an explanation for how I attacked 3 times in .6 seconds with a 2H weapon?



That picture shows the following:
-5:39 - You hit the Lurker for 473
-5:22 - You gain WF attack
-5:20 - You crit the Lurker for 1293
-4:72 - You hit the Lurker for 561


The weapon I was using was Hammer of the Naaru (3.60 AS); I had a Shaman in my group for WF totem and I had just cast JotC ... So did a judgement trigger WF, or did WF proc itself, or ... ?

Of course, this happened in the first 5 seconds of the fight, so I took a dirt nap quickly thereafter. = P

Leveling my paladin I ran across a couple times when I had 2 attacks hit right after eachother like you're saying, although I didn't look at the combat log times. I just excused it for being lag-related but now I'm not really sure... Any more info about this?

Weapons: Dunno why all the hub hub, but as some already mentioned: For alliance, slower, higher frontload damage weapons will always be supreme.

Why? Because despite CS being weapon speed normalized, SoC procs are NOT. You gain a lot more by having your AP bonus for your SoC procs multiplied by 3.8 rather than 3.5 for example. That's what makes weapons such as Thunder -> Stormherald and Torch of the Damned so great for ret paladins (especially human ones).

For belfs using SoB weapon speed should be pretty much irrelevant afaik, correct me if I'm wrong.



Haste rating: I did some pretty unorthodox testing a few days ago on the blasted lands mobs (the ones that never die).

The idea was, to detect the minimal difference in proc chances given current haste gear, I'd need 1000-10000 hit tests over hours/days to get reliable results.

So instead, I tried a sort of unorthodox, brute force test, the setup was basically a 8 man raid and got 7 shammies to give me chain heroism for 7x40 secs, juggling shammies into my party as their heroism cooldowns are used.

This way I'd get a whopping 30% haste, which would otherwise require tons of gear to achieve.

My swing speed with my Torch of the Damned 3.8 speed + 50 haste on mace + 32 haste rating from Girdle of the Lightbearer + Heroism + mongoose procs was: ~2.75 swing speed

Keep in mind, the goal here is not to get an accurate number, but rather to see if haste affects SoC proc rating in any way shape or form.

With this amount of haste, I was hoping it would be pretty obvious whether haste affected SoC procs or not, even over such a short duration, though I fully understand that this is a very rough test and that results cannot be quoted as accurate.


Theory:

1. Proc chance with a 3.8 speed weapon: 7/60 * 3.8 = 44.3% chance to proc SoC

PPM = 7

If haste does not affect proc chance: Over ~280 secs (=~4.8 mins) @ 7ppm I should get a ballpark range of ~34 SoC procs, regardless of how many attacks I make.

2. PPM if haste DOES affect SoC: 0.443/2.75 * 60 = ~9.67 ppm

If haste does affect proc chance: Over ~280 secs (=~4.8 mins) @ ~9.7ppm I should get a ballpark range of ~47 SoC procs.



Now the difference between 34 SoC procs and 47 SoC procs is pretty huge even over such a short period.


My results were:

Time 288.33 secs

Melee:
76 hits
47 crits
=123 total

SoC:
22 hits
13 crits
=35 total

(I also parried 18 attacks, which explains the increased number of attacks)

35 procs / 4.8 mins = 7.3 ppm


Despite the rough sample size, I can conclude that haste most probably does not increase SoC procs unfortunately. As such, haste is only good to increase autoattack dps for us, nothing more.

Disclaimer: Again I know this is a very rough test and I welcome anyone to run a more extensive test over more hits/time.