Post #SourceDatesAuthorPost
#1SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Cromfel
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

Now that 2.3 introduces some damage increase and 30% threat reduction, its time to get this baby rolling. This topic will be updated on regular basis with new information of Retribution PvE performance. This is still work in progress, so prettymuch majority of the information is still lacking. If people have anything they feel should be added, feel free to post PM to me and I add it. (This to ensure I get email notification and can add new stuff ASAP)
  1. Spreadsheets
  2. Combat System Details
    1. Melee Hit rating
    2. Melee crit rating
    3. Spell crit rating
    4. Haste rating
  3. Judgement Raid Effect Examples
  4. DPS cycles
  5. Item DPS Comparison

1. DPS Spreadsheets

DPS Spreadsheet Author: bellator
Imp. JotC Contribution Calculator (Excel)(Open Office) Author: Sigurd

2. Combat System Details

Melee Hit rating:
You need to aim for 9% hit (Talents + gear combined) for theoretical hit cap.

Melee Crit Rating:
Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)
Spell crit rating:
Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)
Haste rating

Each 5% of haste will increase your total damage output as follows.



SoC downranking

Seal of Command difference in damage between rank1 and rank6 is about 5% in total damage, compared to the mana consuming. This test is done with T5 level gear. Exact theoretical calculations would be nice.



SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn
WWS

SoC Rank1 Example
Mana consumption 20 mana per second
DPS : 934
Melee 48 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 26 %
Crusader Strike 21 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 5 %
DPS time : 5mn
WWS

DPS Difference 11% less with R1
Mana consumption 55% less with R1

3. Judgement Raid Effect Examples Author: flyingtoastr

Updated to apply for patch 2.4

These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. Self buffs are considered into the calculations, but no outside factors (Windfury Totem) are included. All talents/abilities are patch 2.4 versions. Your results will vary.

Drinking Super Mana Potions on cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users equals 130.88 Mp5 (Per player)

Druid
Balance
Rotation 1: Moonfire, Starfire x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 70.48 Mp5

Rotation 2: Starfire, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 61.67 Mp5
Hunter
All Specs
Rotation 1: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Repeat
Attack Speed: 2.10 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 220.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Arcane/Multi Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.44 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 227.46 Mp5
Mage
Fire
Rotation 1: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Rotation 1: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Arcane
Rotation 1: Arcane Blast x3, Arcane Missiles, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.08 Mp5
Paladin
Protection
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Judgement of Righteousness, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 124.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 147.32 Mp5

Rotation 3: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 106.81 Mp5

Rotation 4: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.39 Mp5
Priest
Shadow
Rotation 1: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5
Shaman
Elemental
Rotation 1: Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 118.40 Mp5

Enhancement
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Earth Shock, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.6 seconds/2.6 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 317.63 Mp5
Warlock
Affliction
Rotation 1: Curse of Something, Siphon Life, Unstable Afflicition, Corruption, Shadowbolt, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 100.91 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Shadowbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Immolate, Incinerate x6, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 86.33 Mp5
4. DPS cycles

This is an adaptation of the WW/Bloodthirst model used by warriors (where they only put 1 point into Imp WW). What that means is 1 point in imp Judgement is actually a DPS increase over 2 points. Effect is very minimal and with 2 points you have little more room for errors.



Full cycle comparison table:
ImageShack - Hosting :: retcyclebz6.jpg

DPS Cycle Spreadsheet Author: Sigurd

5. Item Comparison

Full item comparison - Author: Nuuga

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Paladin DPS Gear Rankings

How are the items being ranked?
- Currently, this is for Seal of Command Retribution Paladins only. Assuming an 8 (or 10 second depending on talents) damage cycle of normal attacks with SOC and then Judgement of Command and Crusader Strike.
- Based on this attack cycle, a DPS value based on the item's strength, attack power, agility, +hit, +crit and +spell damage are calculated.
- Also relative mob level is taken into account as you can see in the full attack table.


Weapon Comparison based on bellator spreadsheet.

Tier5 and Tier6 gears are assumed most common items with full tier 5/6 according to instance itemization available. Values for DPS are not your actual damage output. Its unbuffed reference dps values only so you can compare the difference between weapons (Adjust the evaluation to your own itemization, your mileage may vary). Do not consider the dps value as actual damage output.



Anyone whining about conditional differences will be shot, use your own imagination in evaluating the results. It is not my responsability to take stupidity into account. These are only reference values to ease weapon selection, for exact results use bellators DPS spreadsheet with your exact itemization.


WiP.

Last edited by Cromfel : 03/27/08 at 1:36 PM.
#2SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Arfea
On one of your videos you said you would like to work in AW cycles into your dps regime, but couldn't due to threat. Will this be possible now? (not much of a retadin so the maths is unknown to me). Nice work on the graph!
#3SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Duncan
Is this 30% thread reduction REALLY confirmed?

The only blue post i found where it was listed (along with other things) got removed shortly after it was posted.

And there is nothing mentioned in 2.3 notes on the PTR, however i can't get on the PTR to take a look myself, though (damn char copy....).
#4SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Marroc
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
Is this 30% thread reduction REALLY confirmed?

The only blue post i found where it was listed (along with other things) got removed shortly after it was posted.

And there is nothing mentioned in 2.3 notes on the PTR, however i can't get on the PTR to take a look myself, though (damn char copy....).
WoW Forums -> Retribution Threat Change
#5SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Assuming the joWis proc on PTR is a bug, what's the cutoff in fight duration for the extra minimal damage from max rank soc to outweigh the functionally infinite sustainability of rank 1 soc spam?

How do we even go about starting to find that?
#6SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wrl
Ret paladin checking in. I am more than pumped for the changes forthcoming.

From my own guestimations 2.3 will be roughly a 15% dps increase for us given the CS changes, the 3% more crit, and the basically nullified change of vengeance dropping.

I don't know about you, but this coupled with threat reduction will be putting me at the top of the meters on a lot of fights. I look forward to the QQ posts after 2.3 goes live.
#7SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Duncan
Originally Posted by Marroc View Post
Thanks, however that damn spell damage on season3 set is still there, though. Hope this get's a single blue post, too. :P
#8SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kyne
Originally Posted by Wrl View Post
Ret paladin checking in. I am more than pumped for the changes forthcoming.

From my own guestimations 2.3 will be roughly a 15% dps increase for us given the CS changes, the 3% more crit, and the basically nullified change of vengeance dropping.

I don't know about you, but this coupled with threat reduction will be putting me at the top of the meters on a lot of fights. I look forward to the QQ posts after 2.3 goes live.
Let's not make these kinds of wild judgments, work with real numbers, and avoid making sweeping conclusions before we actually get some data.
#9SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rheyah
I will get you those numbers.
#10SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Xaviera
Does not appear to be an Open Office friendly spreadsheet. I know it's an Excel spreadsheet, but I've never had a problem opening any of them in Open Office before.

Any way it could be made compatible, or something?
#11SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Just to get it up here because there were questions, the confirmed 2.3 changes and the blues who said it:

Confirmed 2.3 Paladin Changes
-Mana cost for Exorcism, Holy Wrath, and Hammer of Wrath lowered. (Source)
-Vengance duration increased to 30 seconds. (Source)
-Improved Seal of Crusader benefits put into base spell, talent benefits replaced with those of Sancitified Crusader. (Source)
-Sanctified Crusader renamed to Sanctified Seals, which increases chance to critically hit with all spells and melee attacks by 1/2/3% and reduces the chance your Seals will be dispelled by 33/66/100%. (Source)
-Crusader Strike cooldown reduced to 6 seconds. (Source)
-Vindication frequency and duration increased and reduces all attributes by 5/10/15%. (Source)
-Pursuit of Justice is now 3 ranks and increases movement speed by 5/10/15% and reduces the chance to be hit by spells by 1/2/3%. (Source)
-Lower ranks of Flash of Light and Holy Light are now properly penalized when used with Blessing of Light. (Source)
-Cleanse and Purify range increased to 40 yards. (Source)
-The combat log will now show the health gained from rank 5 of Judgement of Light as Judgement of Light instead of Seal of Light. (Source)
-Weapon Expertise (Protection) renamed Combat Expertise, now increases expertise by 1/2/3/4/5 and total Stamina by 2/4/6/8/10%.
-Paladin seals no longer have a low chance to be dispelled if you have 3 points in Sanctified Seals.
-Judgement of Wisdom: It is no longer possible for the mana energize effect to trigger off of reapplication of the Judgement of Wisdom.
-Divine Favor: When this ability is cast immediately after a critical heal, it will no longer be removed incorrectly.
-Fanaticism (Retribution) now also reduces threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%.
-Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
-Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased.
-Spiritual Attunement: This ability will now gain mana properly from Vampiric Embrace heals.

I'll try to keep it updated when/if there are any more changes.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/24/07 at 4:16 PM.
#12SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Ragnor
Has anyone started re-estimating the dps value of stats/items now post changes and with the introduction of armor penetration.

ie: The value of crit vs ap vs +dmg vs haste vs ac penetration

Edit: Ah right there's a pretty decent graph in bella's spreadsheet

Last edited by Ragnor : 10/16/07 at 5:15 PM.
#13SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3vokzhen
DPS sheet doesn't work in OOCalc. According to sources more knowledgeable than me, it's probably because OOCalc doesn't support indirect commands. The spreadsheet in unusable as of now; Er:502's everywhere.
An OOCalc-workable version would be great :d
#14SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ragnor
The spreadsheet really needs s2 gear + veteran rewards + arena 2h'ers added, it's comparable to T5 almost (more crit less ap, more stm, less int) and alot of people giving ret a go in 2.3 will be filling out their current gear with pvp rewards considering it will be cheap to do so.
#15SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Added Sigurd's DPS cycle spreadsheet and image.
#16SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Wouldn't a rotation based on CS whenever it's up and judging only when GCD is up in order to reseal instantly be better than all the rotations listed? Unless I'm missing something just by glancing at the numbers on the rotation spreadsheet CS>keeping SoC up>judging, but the highest DPS rotation there could judge more often with 8s cooldown on judgement while still keeping that order of priority.

So I would add a rotation to the sheet that CSs whenever it's up and judging as often as you can as long as the seal's GCD won't delay the CS.
#17SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3GSH
Sigurd's DPS cycle spreadsheet seems to be missing a case.

In his first cycle, he occasionally Judges during the CS global cooldown. This reduces SoC uptime. Given that SoC does more DPS than Judgement (224 DPS vs 100 DPS by his numbers), wouldn't it be better to delay the Judgement by 1.5s and keep SoC uptime at 100%?

The case where Crusader Strike has priority, 8s Judgement, and 100% SoC uptime is not represented.
#18SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
^That's exactly what I was saying.^
#19SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
DarKNecross
Checking it-
Okay, here's what I figured out (and I corrected a couple math errors from the previous ones)


They're so incredibly close, I'd actually probably use the 5th rotation instead of the 4th, since it has a bit more wiggle-room. So yes, the 8sec Judgement only judging when it won't interfere is probably the best choice.

Last edited by DarKNecross : 10/16/07 at 11:03 PM.
#20SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Yeah that was the original cycle. Not like it is hard to add to the list for comparison. But is it better to loose fraction of SoC uptime and delay JoC because of that? You have time window for reseal between AA timer anyway. So the effect should be extremely minimal.



I suppose this is the case.
#21SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prinsesa
Is this supposed to be a Retribution Paladin Megathread? I've often wondered how I should gem my sockets as Ret. I placed a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] on my meta socket, while the red sockets are getting [Bold Living Ruby], the yellow sockets are getting [Inscribed Noble Topaz] and the blues are getting [Sovereign Nightseye].

In any case, I'm *extremely* excited about the incoming threat reduction, which pretty much seals the deal for the already crotch-kickingly awesome changes.
#22SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3GSH
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Yeah that was the original cycle. Not like it is hard to add to the list for comparison. But is it better to loose fraction of SoC uptime and delay JoC because of that? You have time window for reseal between AA timer anyway. So the effect should be extremely minimal.
The general algorithm for DPS is to use your higher DPS abilities before your lower DPS ones. JoC is lower DPS than SoC. Therefore, prioritizing JoC over SoC does not make intuitive sense.
#23SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?
#24SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Here's the OpenOffice friendly version of the Sanctified Crusader spreadsheet:
Sanctified Crusader Contribution Calculator(.ods)
#25SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Nice thread,

Cromfel, there's actually a slightly later version of the dps model (version 8) here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

I plan to include different dps cycles into the model to make it more realistic in terms of damage output (as it assumes everything can be used on CD)

I also plan to include a mana analysis tracking overall mana over time. damage per mana of abilities etc.

But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :p If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so


Cromfel, for more dramatic effect, you man want to rewrite:-

"DPS Difference 11% less with R1
Mana consumption 55% less with R1"

as:-

"DPS increase using R6 = 11%
Mana consumption increase using R1 = 125%"
#26SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3johsgrd
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?
I could test it. What are good mobs for testing this on? Are the ones in Blasted Lands any good for this? (I assume they have very low armor, but for comparison between SoC and SoB it doesn't matter, I guess.) Oh, by the way, being a blood elf, I haven't cared so much about gearing for spell damage, so it's below 200.
#27SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Checking it-
Okay, here's what I figured out (and I corrected a couple math errors from the previous ones)


They're so incredibly close, I'd actually probably use the 5th rotation instead of the 4th, since it has a bit more wiggle-room. So yes, the 8sec Judgement only judging when it won't interfere is probably the best choice.
I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage
#28SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?
If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.
#29SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Critical strike rating vs. spell critical strike rating, what affects which skills?

I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.
#30SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.
Melee Crit Rating:
Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Spell hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:
Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)


Is that all?
#31SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
You might want to consider adding an itemization section much like the enhancement shaman post. However I can be no help there because I have no idea how to itemize a retribution paladin (gogo prot!).
#32SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Xequecal
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.
Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.
#33SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.
I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.
#34SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage
Actually, I noticed how similar mostly when I was testing them out in Blasted Lands last night. Once you get going, they're almost identical - but it's actually hard to get to the next tier of Ret without putting 2 points in Imp Judgement. Also, chaining the GCD from SoC into CS proves sometimes more difficult than CS->SoC, since you can judge while the GCD from CS is going, and reseal right after.
#35SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Modano
Haste rating

So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.
#36SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Prepared
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :p If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so
It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.

--edit--

There are actually a few fields that do function in the top section for "Information". "Base Information" is static, so that obviously works, but strangely things like "Hit", "Crit", "Dam (S)", work.

Going through the steps on how things are totaled out, it seems to be that the calculations for trinkets is where the problem lies. IE: if I completely remove the "Strength" column for trinkets and the libram, the stat totals from gear comes out to an actual value with no error, and then the overall total works fine... until you factor in Divine Strength, which breaks it again. D:

Last edited by Prepared : 10/17/07 at 11:41 AM.
#37SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Modano View Post
So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.
The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)
#38SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.
Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)
#39SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Modano
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)
Rough. So essentially the only benefit from haste is auto attack damage, which isn't bad but it's going to be hard to justify when I watch swing #3 in a row without an SoC proc.
#40SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)
I don't actually remember having seen an SoC proc from a WF generated attack, however it very well could. I remember reading somewhere that it wouldn't.
#41SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Handled
I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.
#42SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Handled View Post
I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.
I know the general consensus (especially for BE pallys) is that warrior gear with +haste is far superior than tier sets. Since I have yet to see any accurate information regarding the bonus proc rate for Tier 6, I can't tell whether it would be worth the investment or not. According to WoWhead its a 20% proc rate, but I would much rather see a WWS or combat log than trust it. As for the 2 piece of Tier 5, its effectiveness is entirely dependant on your use of Judgement. If you use Judgement every cooldown it works out to a fair amount of saved mana, but you would be sacrificing a decent amount of stats (especially haste) to use it over non-tier BT gear.

To the best of my knowledge no one has yet tried to keep an up to date equipment list for ret pallys though.
#43SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Handled
The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.
#44SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Handled View Post
The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.
This may very well change with the threat reduction, but right now you only want enough crit to keep Vengeance up as close to 100% as possible. After that crit only makes your aggro more spikey while not increasing your DPS as well as AP. With the change to Vengeance and the addition of more crit to the tree (Sanctified Seals) it will mean you will need much less crit from gear to keep that 100% uptime. There is a point where AP starts to give diminished returns for overall DPS as compared to crit, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I'm sure a full time retadin could help a bit more there than myself.
#45SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
As a side note on gear since I can't load the calculator in open office...

How do Cataclysm's Edge and the Torch of the Damned compete?

I have fairly free options on both, since the only raiding warrior with anything like strong PvP inclinations dropped off of arenaing recently and respecced Fury, and already has a Stormherald anyway.

Basically, is the -.3 speed on the Cataclysm enough of a deficiency to outweigh the ~60 AP and 8 DPS advantage (and 300 armor penetration)?

I'm trying to decide on their relative value.

I always thought Torch was best as a given but I want to evaluate it in a more complete fashion.
#46SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rho
I have a question about what kind of group a ret paladin needs to be in to be successful. Currently we have a melee group that looks like this:

DPS Warrior (fury)
DPS Warrior (fury)
Rogue
Rogue
Enhancement Shaman

Presumably if one paladin in our raid goes retribution, he would displace a warrior, and an additional healer would be invited.

However, in the instance that we only have 25, including 2 dps warriors, how should group allocation be handled. Could a paladin make use of a shadow priest group and incorporate consecration into the dps cycle? Should the warrior be put with the hunter/feral group?
#47SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Luxury
Originally Posted by Rho View Post
However, in the instance that we only have 25, including 2 dps warriors, how should group allocation be handled. Could a paladin make use of a shadow priest group and incorporate consecration into the dps cycle? Should the warrior be put with the hunter/feral group?
I wouldn't recommend putting the ret pally with the shadow priest as a replacement for WF. Cons spamming won't make up for the lost dps.
#48SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Luxury
After the haste nerf and the recalculation of PPM % chance on the after-haste weapon speed, it is definitely not worth it to trade crit for haste if you're an alliance paladin, assuming the SoV tests apply to SoC. For SoB pallies it was definitely worth it to trade crit for haste before the haste nerf, and about even after the haste nerf.
#49SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arkhubar
It was suggested to me I repost here. Have at it! ^_^

Ok. The below are some theories I've come up with and had limited ability (or none at all) to test over the last few months. I know there are errors. I need help finding them. Shoot holes in the theories if you can, because I can't test these theories well on my own at this time. But maybe this will give some people some different ways to think about optimizing Retadin DPS. Also, I already know places where I need help adjusting the numbers for 2.3 (or in general), I'll outline them all and hopefully people will be kind enough to supply them for me. If someone after seeing this wants to try and lend me a hand with testing let me know, I <3 you long time.

Theory 1: Spell Rotation

I've noticed quite a few paladins use a rotation of the following kind based on their WWS logs: Seal of Blood/Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike. Some exorcism thrown in (1-2), some consecrate thrown in (nothing major). It also seems like they do not use very many if any mana potions.

Another common trend is people tend to like to go BS for the weapons. Therefore I propose the following:

The superior DPS rotation to use is Consecrate (Rank 4), Hammer of Wrath, Seal of Blood/Command, Judgement, and Crusader Strike. If exorcism is available, that takes priority over Consecrate in terms of mana (but if you can fire both off then do it).

You can achieve this rotation easily if instead of leaning BS you take alchemy and use an alchemist's stone, even if you don't get a judgement of wisdom up on the mob from another paladin (but you should). Some numbers:

14.875 mana per second for Seal of Command
26.666 mana per second for Exorcism (2.3 COST: IDENTICAL?)
91.666 mana per second for Hammer of Wrath (2.3 COST: 73.333, - 18.333)
23.6 mana per second for Crusader Strike (2.3 COST: 39.333, + 15.667)
15.5 mana per second for Judgement
48.75 mana per second for Consecration rank 4
82.5 mana per second for consecration rank 6
Obviously these numbers will be off for 2.3. If someone would be kind enough to supply me the new mana costs for 2.3 (and if someone would let me know if the mana cost on CS has changed), I can adjust all these numbers. Assume HoW, Exorcism go down and CS goes up for now. This means that the standard rotation most rets use goes up in mana cost and the new one will not be as expensive as before.

Quote:
Rotation 1:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike: 53.975 (2.3 COST: 69.642)

Rotation 2:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Consecration Rank 4: 102.725 (2.3 COST: 118.392)

Rotation 3:
Seal of command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Consecration Rank 4, Hammer of Wrath: 194.391 (2.3 COST: 191.725)

Rotation 4:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Exorcism, Consecration Rank 4: 129.391 (2.3 COST: 145.057)

Rotation 5:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Exorcism, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath: 221.057 (2.3 COST: 218.391)
At this point I'll note I'm intentionally not including blood. I'm not going to bother modeling it, just assume automatically it is far more mana efficient (lower mana cost and mana back from others healing you). Doesn't really change the point. But if you notice, the rotation I'm proposing goes anywhere from 2x-4x as much mana per second drain on the paladin as the standard rotation. However, I swear its doable. Here's why:

Super Mana Potion: 20
Fel Mana Potion: 26.6666667
Super Mana Potion w/ Alchemist's Stone: 28
Fel Mana Potion w/ Alchemist's Stone: 37.3333333
values for chain chugging pots w and without alchemist's stone. If you notice fel manas w/ alchemist almost cover consecrate rank 4 by themselves. Now use major magebloods, make sure your fellow dins get wisdom up there for you to refresh, etc, and its very easy to keep up the mana. Even without wisdom, if I have blood I can pretty much perma sustain it without trying. I don't recall if I can do it no wisdom and command without it being a fight where I take damage.

The theory is as such:

Unless you are threat capped already,if you can generate more mana and then use it, then you generate more dps than you would by leaning BS and not using alchemist's stone (and if you don't chain chug and you aren't at threat cap then you just are playing sub optimally). For me, Consecrate rank 4 is worth 88 dps on a single target, and if you can hit multiple targets it gets even better. The BS weapons IMO aren't superior enough to justify passing up on 15 all stats and the extra mana, and I don't know if a trinket exists that will provide more dps (I mean that - maybe one does, I just don't know). The rotation I proposed above is a consequence of this theory: Its roughly what I am comfortable throwing at a mob in a regular rotation without bottoming out. It might be possible to do better, I'd need some time to sit at a mob using multiple ranks of consecrate etc.

Theory 2: Spell Damage maybe doesn't suck *that* much

When you use blood, judgement of blood, CS, and white hits as your only dps, yes. Spell damage sucks. But notice I have multiple things in that rotation which all benefit from spell damage - especially if you run command. So how good is spell damage roughly?

Here is my math and assumptions. I need people to give me more accurate numbers and assumptions and I will re-run the numbers to get something more accurate:

1) Assume ideal circumstances - all spells go off every time they are off cooldown. Yes, this obviously isn't true, but for the sake of trying to keep things simple to start I'm fudging.

2) Assume 3.6 speed weapon, 35% melee crit, 7% spell crit, enh shaman and kings. The last two favor str and attack power, the rest is just for a starting point. I also assume the % bonuses are multiplicative, so its 1.1*1.1*1.1 (kings, 10% str talent, and 10% AP) more mileage out of str than base. ALSO: I know my spell coefficients are off. If someone can give me the right ones I'd appreciate it a great deal.

3) Assume following mathematics:

Spell based additions to DPS:

1) 5 Spell damage = 1 dps consecrate (single target assuming)
2) (Spell Damage * .4) / 6 seconds = CS dps from dmg <- adjusted for 2.3
3) (Spell damage * .43)/ 6 seconds) * .2 = HoW DPS from dmg.
4) ((Spell damage * .43)*6.8 PPM)/60 seconds = SoC dps from damage.
5) (Spell damage * .43) / 8 = JoC dps from dmg
6) Exorcism isn't counted for the number I'll present here, but math is (spell damage * .43) / 15

Str based additions to DPS:

1) Attack power / 14 = white dps from str
2) (white dps * weapon speed) / 6 = CS dps from str
3) white dps * .35 = SoB DPS
4) ((white dps * weapon speed) * ((.7 to holy damage * 6.8 PPM)/60 seconds)) = SoC dps from str


The value I get for the value of dmg under the above circumstances is .610001 for SoB, and .916675 for SoC. Spell crit raises the value in favor of dmg, melee crit lowers it, weapon speed lowers it, but not by any massive margins. I will produce precise numbers about that once I get the math corrected, and upload a spreadsheet so people can modify it/see I'm not making things up.

However, these numbers seem to be higher than people were originally predicting the value for dmg conversion. I've seen numbers like .4 etc. I'd like some help correcting this to get an exact value for a spell heavy rotation. It might be higher or lower, but knowing would certainly allow us to evaluate tier X v dps plate etc. Seems like for alliance 'dins dmg might be VERY valuable.

Concluding thoughts

Once again, I stress that I'm extremely limited in my ability to test. My guild was strugging before and it has decided to stop raiding as of tuesday (which was also the day I realized the possibility of theory 2, before I assumed Dmg sucked like everyone else - my gear needs to be redone if I'm right). I've put this out here at last because it seems like I'm not going to get an opportunity to personally test this before coming forward with it, and I may never even get to see the fruits of this if I'm right. So, if you can help me refine the theories or shoot em down, by all means. I put this forward now to try and help further the cause for rets like me everywhere.

I think I might be right, at least partially. If that's true, there is a lot more dps to squeeze out of ret. So, I'm curious what you all think of this. Happy to answer questions, and I appologize if I'm just a newb who made a ton of dumb errors. Have at it!

Last edited by Arkhubar : 10/17/07 at 4:40 PM.
#50SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3vokzhen
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.
If it helps at all, I get macro warning in OOCalc when I load the spriest spreadsheet but get no errors, and I *think* it does incorporate hidden cells, but I might be wrong. As least, I don't see on the sheet where any of the calculations are actually done, unless there's a difference between "cannot be seen by default" and "hidden."

The dropdown menus in your spreadsheet work fine, sorry I didn't clarify that (though they seem to like to break as well, the mage spreadsheet does this). It's just everything else that's messed up :P
#51SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wrl
Just a weird calculation mechanic I discovered a while back. Certain conditional multipliers such as Crusade will apply to Seal of Blood and Seal of Command twice.

With sanctity aura off, I was hitting for more than 35% of my white damage when using a low dps, low damage range weapon. I created a pretty big sample size and found that it was hitting noticeably harder (I believe it was 3%, but I don't have the numbers anymore).

I believe that crusade first applies to your base melee damage, then when blood determines its damage it applies the modifier again.

I don't believe this is the case for Sanctity Aura, because that shows up on your character sheet specifically.

If anyone wanted to run this test again to back this up, that would rock.
#52SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Arkhubar View Post
Obviously these numbers will be off for 2.3. If someone would be kind enough to supply me the new mana costs for 2.3 (and if someone would let me know if the mana cost on CS has changed), I can adjust all these numbers. Assume HoW, Exorcism go down and CS goes up for now. This means that the standard rotation most rets use goes up in mana cost and the new one will not be as expensive as before.
2.3 Mana costs are:
Exorcism (Rank VII): 340 mana
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV): 440 mana

Consecrate mana costs remained constant.

Crusader Strike remained at 236 mana on both Live and the PTR (for myself) which somehow works out to be ~6% of my base mana (as opposed to the 8% that is advertised). I must have something wrong here, but the fact remains that the cost is constant.

Good post BTW.
#53SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arkhubar
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
2.3 Mana costs are:
Exorcism (Rank VII): 340 mana
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV): 440 mana

Consecrate mana costs remained constant.

Crusader Strike remained at 236 mana on both Live and the PTR (for myself) which somehow works out to be ~6% of my base mana (as opposed to the 8% that is advertised). I must have something wrong here, but the fact remains that the cost is constant.

Good post BTW.
Thanks, I'll go in and adjust all my numbers presently.

I just wish I had useful personal data to back it up, I've had the first theory for months, just variety of things have conspired against me to prevent me from having a WWS log really worth a damn, and now I'm guildless. :P

edit: updated based on new mana costs. Unless I'm crazy Exorcism is the same, HoW is now a good amount less and CS is a good amount more in MPS costs. Makes mana generation even more critical than before.

Last edited by Arkhubar : 10/17/07 at 4:41 PM.
#54SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Arkhubar
Ok, attempt to model WF in the spreadsheet is as follows, double check my thoughts:

Add 20% of whatever the original benefit of +dmg/str was (if WF is true) for the following abilities:

White DPS, SoB DPS, SoC DPS.

So for +dmg only SoC benefits to +dmg get a boost, for str +dmg gets a boost. The coefficients I get with WF on are .490719 SoB and .763424 SoC in terms of how much str 1 dmg is equal to. Again, assuming Kings and Enh shaman, without enh the numbers go up to .539791 and .839766. edit: fun fact, without WF, without enh shaman, +dmg exceeds the value of str for retadins using SoC assuming you can use Cons CS HoW SoC JoC every time without fail.

Once I make sure most of the basic assumptions are right and I didn't miss anything silly I'll upload the spreadsheet (anyone got a good method to do that?)
#55SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Artaxz
Do we have any idea what value to place for each state for purposes of itemization? For instance, the enhancement shaman thread gives fairly well tested values (2.0 str, 1.0 Ap, 1.61 crit, 1.17 hit I believe). I fully understand that STR would be the stat given the most weight (perhaps 2.2 based on the previous listed figures), while agi and crit would be fairly low. As a BE, haste is worth about the same as crit I believe, but I have no real idea on how to prioritize gear.

My guild is asking me to experiment with ret in 2.3, and I have access to any gear. What I am really asking for is item values to use with Lootzor I suppose. My ret gear has some BT trash drops, and pretty much the best from TK/SSC (1800 ap, 20 crit, some haste, and hit capped). I would think with the 8% crit in the ret tree that I would have 100% uptime with vengeance, and could just stack STR and haste.

I looked at T6 ret and it is underwhelming. Any geared ret paladins that can offer gear choices?
#56SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by vokzhen View Post
If it helps at all, I get macro warning in OOCalc when I load the spriest spreadsheet but get no errors, and I *think* it does incorporate hidden cells, but I might be wrong. As least, I don't see on the sheet where any of the calculations are actually done, unless there's a difference between "cannot be seen by default" and "hidden."

The dropdown menus in your spreadsheet work fine, sorry I didn't clarify that (though they seem to like to break as well, the mage spreadsheet does this). It's just everything else that's messed up :P
I managed to load a development version of OOo which runs some VB script stuff just fine. I did receive an error on enable macros, but the buttons actually worked. However, the calculations are still off, and I get a lot of 502 errors all over the place. This makes me think the errors there are independent of the actual macros.
#57SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.
#58SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Rho View Post
I have a question about what kind of group a ret paladin needs to be in to be successful. Currently we have a melee group that looks like this:

DPS Warrior (fury)
DPS Warrior (fury)
Rogue
Rogue
Enhancement Shaman
The melee group makeup really depends on the total raid makeup, obviously you are looking at total raid dps. If one of the rogues is daggers they would be the first to go from that group probably, of course this assuming you can slot them in somewhere else with lotp,bs, tsa etc otherwise it's probably not worth it.
#59SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Have been spending some time this evening on the dps model.

Unfortunately most of that was spent on creating an "I Win" button in which it would analyse every combination of item to come out with the perfect gear. Unfortunately i overestimated the processing power of my computer and when the timer i had built in to keep track of it's progress told me i had 50 million millenia left until the calculation was done i decided it wasn't worth it. Even filtering out items < item level 140 still left me with an 80million combination / 37 day calculation.

On the plus side learnt some new coding, so implementing a nice new section which will compare individual items against all items of the same type in the database. Not a universal theory unfortunately but a nice extra. Will try to get it out tomorrow.
#60SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.
The problem with saying "JoW gives x mana per 5 seconds" is that JoW depends greatly on your rate of attack and the kinds of damage you're doing. In other words its entirely dependant on your raid makeup and the specs of everyone hitting the mob. I had a WWS a while back (I think its deleted by now) of a Mag raid where you can see just how much of a difference there is between say a mage (spamming spells) versus a spriest (dots and such). In fact, there are huge differences in spec as well, our destro lock had almost triple the procs as an affliction lock.

I think as a blanket statement you could say JoW restores a ton of mana. But coming up with exact numbers for every class and spec in the game, not counting outside variables, would be a very difficult if not impossible task.
#61SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
As a side note on gear since I can't load the calculator in open office...

How do Cataclysm's Edge and the Torch of the Damned compete?

I have fairly free options on both, since the only raiding warrior with anything like strong PvP inclinations dropped off of arenaing recently and respecced Fury, and already has a Stormherald anyway.

Basically, is the -.3 speed on the Cataclysm enough of a deficiency to outweigh the ~60 AP and 8 DPS advantage (and 300 armor penetration)?

I'm trying to decide on their relative value.

I always thought Torch was best as a given but I want to evaluate it in a more complete fashion.
Yes torch of the damned is better than cataclysm's. More so for SoC than SoB, but still better in both.


Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
2.3 Mana costs are:
Exorcism (Rank VII): 340 mana
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV): 440 mana

Consecrate mana costs remained constant.

Crusader Strike remained at 236 mana on both Live and the PTR (for myself) which somehow works out to be ~6% of my base mana (as opposed to the 8% that is advertised). I must have something wrong here, but the fact remains that the cost is constant.

Good post BTW.
I'm guessing to work the mana % you calculated the 236 mana cost based on what you mana bar reads when you are completely nakes/untalented etc. However this is not Blizzard means by base mana. If you hover over you intellect when naked etc it will say "Increases mana by X". Take this number away from your mana pool to get your "base mana". This will probably correct the 6% to 8%


Originally Posted by Artaxz View Post
Do we have any idea what value to place for each state for purposes of itemization? For instance, the enhancement shaman thread gives fairly well tested values (2.0 str, 1.0 Ap, 1.61 crit, 1.17 hit I believe). I fully understand that STR would be the stat given the most weight (perhaps 2.2 based on the previous listed figures), while agi and crit would be fairly low. As a BE, haste is worth about the same as crit I believe, but I have no real idea on how to prioritize gear.

My guild is asking me to experiment with ret in 2.3, and I have access to any gear. What I am really asking for is item values to use with Lootzor I suppose. My ret gear has some BT trash drops, and pretty much the best from TK/SSC (1800 ap, 20 crit, some haste, and hit capped). I would think with the 8% crit in the ret tree that I would have 100% uptime with vengeance, and could just stack STR and haste.

I looked at T6 ret and it is underwhelming. Any geared ret paladins that can offer gear choices?
My model calculates increase in gains based on itemisation increase. Will try to pull out the comparison figures when i have a minute. General rule of thumb is max hit, get crit to keep veng up then max Str for SoC and Str/Haste for SoB.
#62SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Veritas17
Question - have we figured out yet if the new vindication change effects boss mobs? This is part of my case with my guild and trying to justify the use of a retadin in the guild. My guild is sorely short sighted when it comes to off-spec whatever you want to call it specs in a raiding environment.

I apologize if this is slightly off topic i'm not quite sure where else to put this. Im also on the pve ptr's and the pvp ptrs if someone wanted to run numbers with me. Im a BE as well.
#63SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I'm guessing to work the mana % you calculated the 236 mana cost based on what you mana bar reads when you are completely nakes/untalented etc. However this is not Blizzard means by base mana. If you hover over you intellect when naked etc it will say "Increases mana by X". Take this number away from your mana pool to get your "base mana". This will probably correct the 6% to 8%
That did it, thanks. Yes CS is still 8% of your base mana (well 7.991%, but close enough).

Originally Posted by Veritas17 View Post
Question - have we figured out yet if the new vindication change effects boss mobs? This is part of my case with my guild and trying to justify the use of a retadin in the guild. My guild is sorely short sighted when it comes to off-spec whatever you want to call it specs in a raiding environment.

I apologize if this is slightly off topic i'm not quite sure where else to put this. Im also on the pve ptr's and the pvp ptrs if someone wanted to run numbers with me. Im a BE as well.
Nothing wrong with questions. And unless its changed significantly since I last checked Vindication only can affect mobs that are CCable. In other words, every time it would proc on a boss you'll just get a nice big "Immune" message.
#64SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Melee Crit Rating:
Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Spell hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:
Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)


Is that all?
That's perfect, thank you!
#65SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The problem with saying "JoW gives x mana per 5 seconds" is that JoW depends greatly on your rate of attack and the kinds of damage you're doing. In other words its entirely dependant on your raid makeup and the specs of everyone hitting the mob. I had a WWS a while back (I think its deleted by now) of a Mag raid where you can see just how much of a difference there is between say a mage (spamming spells) versus a spriest (dots and such). In fact, there are huge differences in spec as well, our destro lock had almost triple the procs as an affliction lock.

I think as a blanket statement you could say JoW restores a ton of mana. But coming up with exact numbers for every class and spec in the game, not counting outside variables, would be a very difficult if not impossible task.
And this is why we should have little rule of thumb examples for everyone to see? They are hard to comprehend, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try dont you think? We dont need to give exact statement, we just need to give something that people can say they gain.

As I said, if you have better way of presenting it for common good, Im more than happy to hear.
#66SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
And this is why we should have little rule of thumb examples for everyone to see? They are hard to comprehend, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try dont you think? We dont need to give exact statement, we just need to give something that people can say they gain.

As I said, if you have better way of presenting it for common good, Im more than happy to hear.
I'm not saying its a bad idea or anything. I will try to get as much data from any fight I can keep Wisdom up for to make a list to help, and I suggest everyone else does the same. But if we're going to do this people need to understand that your mileage will vary by a great amount depending on your raid and the fight. The best I think would be to produce a range of values for each class, such as "you might get a high of x mp5 (tank and spank) to a low of y mp5 (fights where wisdom may not be up all the time/multiple mobs/etc)". It will be a ton of work to get data for most classes and specs, so it might be a while before we can get anything near definitive results.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/17/07 at 10:41 PM.
#67SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Well all you need to do is see their prefered DPS cycles and see when their cycle resets. That way you know how many JoW proccing abilitys you have over period of time. For melee it isnt that simple, but for casters it is. Not like their spell rotations and spellcasts vary much.
#68SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Well all you need to do is see their prefered DPS cycles and see when their cycle resets. That way you know how many JoW proccing abilitys you have over period of time. For melee it isnt that simple, but for casters it is. Not like their spell rotations and spellcasts vary much.
Bleh, I've always been a fan of experimental data versus raw theory, but that would work. The only problem that I can see is that JoW is still a 50% proc chance rather than a PPM, so regardless of how we find the data it will end up being a range rather than a flat value.

But for producing 'ideal' regen from JoW, your system would work well Cromfel. I'll start looking into it.
#69SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Was wondering when a thread likes this will pop up on EJ

A couple things I noticed so far:

Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
SoC downranking

Seal of Command difference in damage between rank1 and rank6 is about 5% in total damage, compared to the mana consuming. This test is done with T5 level gear. Exact theoretical calculations would be nice.
I think this is a bit too general of a statement to just put there, especially in an OP. It depends on so many things like gear (even "T5 level gear" can vary vastly. White damage boosting stats like AP vs spelldamage), group composition (drenai shammy = 1% spell hit), windfury and so on.

So just saying "it's 5% more damage in Tier 5 gear" is a bit off :P

Also consider with the PTR 2.3 change of Precision giving us 3% more spell hit, JoC might become a bit more powerful. Food for thought anyways.

I'd consider letting different paladins run some tests, (3 min tests are way too unreliable, you'd need to test over hours of combat) in different gear to see if you can reach a more reliable number.
#70SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Was wondering when a thread likes this will pop up on EJ

A couple things I noticed so far:



I think this is a bit too general of a statement to just put there, especially in an OP. It depends on so many things like gear (even "T5 level gear" can vary vastly. White damage boosting stats like AP vs spelldamage), group composition (drenai shammy = 1% spell hit), windfury and so on.

So just saying "it's 5% more damage in Tier 5 gear" is a bit off :P

Also consider with the PTR 2.3 change of Precision giving us 3% more spell hit, JoC might become a bit more powerful. Food for thought anyways.

I'd consider letting different paladins run some tests, (3 min tests are way too unreliable, you'd need to test over hours of combat) in different gear to see if you can reach a more reliable number.

Yeah you are right. We just need time to adjust things. Those were just few things I had in pocket as this topic was requested. So it will be adjusted to reflect better the actualy downranking benefits/losses, just give me some time.

Thanks for the input tho! This is exactly what we need to keep doing
#71SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by Wrl View Post
Just a weird calculation mechanic I discovered a while back. Certain conditional multipliers such as Crusade will apply to Seal of Blood and Seal of Command twice.

With sanctity aura off, I was hitting for more than 35% of my white damage when using a low dps, low damage range weapon. I created a pretty big sample size and found that it was hitting noticeably harder (I believe it was 3%, but I don't have the numbers anymore).

I believe that crusade first applies to your base melee damage, then when blood determines its damage it applies the modifier again.

I don't believe this is the case for Sanctity Aura, because that shows up on your character sheet specifically.

If anyone wanted to run this test again to back this up, that would rock.
I haven't noticed any extra damage on SoC hits. If you spec 0/3 crusade and hit SoC with a low range weapon, then spec 3/3 crusade your SoC hits will be exactly 3% higher.

Crusade is different to other DPS increasing talents though, it applies twice on crits. That's something that should be added to the DPS spreadsheet too. With 3/3 crusade our crit modifier is 106% and with 3/3 crusade and the meta gem it's 112%.
#72SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Ok, a few preliminary numbers I got for JoW. I looked around the boards for some basic attack rotation and speed information, but it may not all be accurate. These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missile x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages I assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

This is all I have time for right now, and yes they are the easiest classes and specs to do, but its late and I'm tired. I'll try to do more tomorrow. Between now and then feel free to contribute.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/18/07 at 8:22 AM.
#73SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Avitus
Ok now I actually finished reading the full thread since my initial reply (damn you people are busy!), some more things I noticed:

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)
There's a thread here on EJ which concluded that most spells that are pre-TBC are based on the "base/un-hasted weapon speed" where as spells/effects which are post-TBC (or rather wow 2.0) are based on the "hasted weapon speed" to calculate the proc chance of the ppm.

As such, SoV and SoC would fall into two different categories. I'll check if I can get more in depth info on this, since it's just from memory atm, however I think it's a very important point, seeing as otherwise haste is basically almost worthless (in comparison to other stats) if it doesn't increase SoC chances (the 2% haste from Mongoose and hopes for increased SoC procs is one of the main reasons I got it on my Torch of the Damned).

Last edited by Avitus : 10/18/07 at 1:43 AM.
#74SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Rho View Post
I have a question about what kind of group a ret paladin needs to be in to be successful. Currently we have a melee group that looks like this:

DPS Warrior (fury)
DPS Warrior (fury)
Rogue
Rogue
Enhancement Shaman

Presumably if one paladin in our raid goes retribution, he would displace a warrior, and an additional healer would be invited.

However, in the instance that we only have 25, including 2 dps warriors, how should group allocation be handled. Could a paladin make use of a shadow priest group and incorporate consecration into the dps cycle? Should the warrior be put with the hunter/feral group?

As a ret paladin, windfury and especially enhancement shammies are your best friends. I strongly advise having one in your party, it's almost a must.

2h wielding (ret paladins/arms warriors) classes usually gain far more from WF than dual wielding ones (rogues/fury warriors). Checking damage meters (SW stats), my average damage from WF is ~12% where as rogues hover at about ~4-5% (used to be 7-8% pre WF nerf).

On top of that, Unleashed Rage (enhancement shammy only) pumps up your STR benefit to incredible heights, basically with Divine Str and BoK and Unleashed Rage up you're gaining a total of 2.662 AP per 1 point of STR. I think that's the highest gain from str of any class.


To answer your inital question: Ditch 1 warrior for you, raid benefit wise 1 ret paladin and 1 fury warrior is much better than 0 ret and 2 warriors. At the same time, WF is almost essential for you to perform well which should be a reason for your spot in that group. Improved Sanctity Aura, while not a flat out killer buff, serves for some bargaining rights.

So far my only problem was aggro from excessively streaky WF/SoC procs, but that's getting fixed with the threat reduction (\o/).
#75SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Avitus
DPS rotations:

While what's posted here about 1/2 Imp Judgement is probably true on paper, I wonder how it holds up in practice.

In an actual encounter with moderate lag, having to cleanse/move on occasion, using consecrate (I personally do during AW or if my mana is good), wasting GCD on AW/DS and normal human reaction times surely it doesn't really matter that much in the long run? (Not that there's a killer need for that saved point anyway in Tier 1-2 ret tree).

Personally I try to keep SoC up all the time and try to delay JoC by 1 GCD if it's going to conflict with CS. However this happens only rarely, once every couple "rotations".

I guess I don't disagree with the theorycrafting, I just question its validity/benefit in real encounter situations.



Mana consumption:

Something I haven't really seen mentioned here explicitly: Alchemist's Stone.

Personally in most fights that don't have much AoE damage, I chug Super Mana Potions every cooldown, sometimes throw in a Fel Mana Potion instead if I'm really low and occasionally Dark Runes.

I've actually had very good results with Dreamless Sleep Potions in fights where you need to move back or have a couple seconds "aggro break".

With Alchemist's Stone, all of these (- the dark runes) give 40% more mana, Dreamless Sleep Potions which normally give 3600 mana (and HP) give you a fat 5040 mana/hp with Alchemist's Stone equipped.

Having all this extra mana gives me a lot of leeway in putting consecration into my spam rotations and has an even greater effect on undead/demon mobs where you can additionally use exorcism.

Also keep in mind Alchemist's Stone gives 15agi/15str/15int which all work towards our damage: 0.66% crit/36.3AP/~250 mana with kings and Div Str.

This aside, I've yet to compare which has the upper hand: "Real DPS trinket" (with a big static benefit like Bloodlust Brooch/Tsunami Talisman/MotB) + no consecration spam vs Alchemist's Stone + consecration spam.



JoW mana restored:

I might get some WWS logs going one our next raids and see how much mana is restored from JoW to everyone. This is definitely a good point for ret.


Hope all this spurs some further discussion

Last edited by Avitus : 10/18/07 at 1:49 AM.
#76SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Hidden
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
On top of that, Unleashed Rage (enhancement shammy only) pumps up your STR benefit to incredible heights, basically with Divine Str and BoK and Unleashed Rage up you're gaining a total of 2.662 AP per 1 point of STR. I think that's the highest gain from str of any class.
For a Fury Warrior 1 Strength on gear becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK, 1.1 Strength are 2.2 Attack Power which become 2.42 through Unleashed Rage and 2.662 through Improved Berserker Stance. So 1 Strength is 2.662 AP and 1 AP is 1.21 AP.
For a Druid in 2.2, 1 Strength becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK which becomes 1.133 Strength with that 3% stats talent which becomes 1.3596 Strength through Heart of the Wild in Cat Form equalling 2.7192 AP which become 2.99112 AP with Unleashed Rage.
For a Druid in 2.3, it's the same as a Fury Warrior plus 3%, resulting in 2.74186 AP per Strength on gear.
So it's definitely not the highest.
#77SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3GSH
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
While what's posted here about 1/2 Imp Judgement is probably true on paper, I wonder how it holds up in practice.

In an actual encounter with moderate lag, having to cleanse/move on occasion, using consecrate (I personally do during AW or if my mana is good), wasting GCD on AW/DS and normal human reaction times surely it doesn't really matter that much in the long run? (Not that there's a killer need for that saved point anyway in Tier 1-2 ret tree).
There actually might be a need for that point. Pursuit of Justice is an extra point, and 15% speed is attractive. If the new Vindication actually affects raid mobs (unlikely, but you never know), that might be worth taking as well. That means you might want to shift up to 6 points to Tier 3 Ret. Saving an unnecessary point on Imp Judgement could be handy.
#78SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Hidden
Am I correct if I assume there's nothing like armor or boss level miss/dodge included in the spreadsheet? The Warrior and Rogue Spreadsheets use a base armor of around 7700 as far as I know and having armor in your spreadsheet as well would help with three things:
1. Cross-class-comparison on boss fights
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
3. The higher your target's armor, the more damage comes from your SoC/SoB in comparison to autoattack and CS, so 0 armor calculations aren't correct if you look at the value of stats like spell damage.
#79SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
For a Fury Warrior 1 Strength on gear becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK, 1.1 Strength are 2.2 Attack Power which become 2.42 through Unleashed Rage and 2.662 through Improved Berserker Stance. So 1 Strength is 2.662 AP and 1 AP is 1.21 AP.
For a Druid in 2.2, 1 Strength becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK which becomes 1.133 Strength with that 3% stats talent which becomes 1.3596 Strength through Heart of the Wild in Cat Form equalling 2.7192 AP which become 2.99112 AP with Unleashed Rage.
For a Druid in 2.3, it's the same as a Fury Warrior plus 3%, resulting in 2.74186 AP per Strength on gear.
So it's definitely not the highest.
Ah forgot about Improved Zerker Stance. Consider it corrected to "amongst the highest gains from Str", point is it's fairly huge.


Originally Posted by GSH View Post
There actually might be a need for that point. Pursuit of Justice is an extra point, and 15% speed is attractive. If the new Vindication actually affects raid mobs (unlikely, but you never know), that might be worth taking as well. That means you might want to shift up to 6 points to Tier 3 Ret. Saving an unnecessary point on Imp Judgement could be handy.
Yes, but unless you're getting 5/5 Imp Might as well as 5/5 Benediction, then you won't be able to put that point into any of Vindication/PoJ in the first place. You'll need to put it in Tier 1-2 ret to get to Tier 3 (which leaves you with 1/5 deflection or Imp BoM 1/5 which are both equally irrelevant).

And if you do take 5/5 Imp Might as well as 5/5 Benediction, then you'll lack the points to put in Vindication/PoJ anyway as well as all the useful stuff, so it's a moot point.

This is considering a standard (5/8/48 build).



Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
So far I've neglected armor penetration simply based on the fact that with SoC our physical/holy damage (=armor unmitigated) is about a 50/50 - 60/40 split, so at most it'll benefit ~50%-60% of our damage. As such, given logic and stat value/item value, I've "assumed" that it's not worthwhile to pursue.

I'd be interested if theory crafting/number crunching can prove this logic wrong however.

Last edited by Avitus : 10/18/07 at 2:25 AM.
#80SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
I'm wondering if it's possible to skip Benediction (or take less than 5 points in it) without major ill effects. I find it difficult to take all the Ret talents I want since I still need Precision from Prot.
#81SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Hidden
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
So far I've neglected armor penetration simply based on the fact that with SoC our physical/holy damage (=armor unmitigated) is about a 50/50 - 60/40 split, so at most it'll benefit ~50%-60% of our damage. As such, given logic and stat value/item value, I've "assumed" that it's not worthwhile to pursue.

I'd be interested if theory crafting/number crunching can prove this logic wrong however.
That's probably true but there are items like Madness of the Betrayer that could be worth taking at some point even though they have some stat points invested in armor penetration. Also the other two points still stand and armor would probably increase the value of spelldamage and, based on your spelldamage, crit. Armor shouldn't be too hard to implement either, just take the formula from WoWWiki and set the base armor to around 7700 which is the most bosses' armor.
#82SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.
The JoW numbers are using a spec that is about to be completely castrated, so they are completely unrealistic. A mage using full AM spam with MSD could get that much mana, but that's getting completely nerfed.

The JoL numbers look about right, are those including the UA bug or regular ticks?
#83SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by grover View Post
I haven't noticed any extra damage on SoC hits. If you spec 0/3 crusade and hit SoC with a low range weapon, then spec 3/3 crusade your SoC hits will be exactly 3% higher.

Crusade is different to other DPS increasing talents though, it applies twice on crits. That's something that should be added to the DPS spreadsheet too. With 3/3 crusade our crit modifier is 106% and with 3/3 crusade and the meta gem it's 112%.
I think you maths is a little off. Crusade isn't applying twice on crits. It's just increasing the value of the crit by 3%

Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit With Crusade = 103
Crit with Crusade = 206

Yes the "Base hit (100)" to "Crit with crusade(206)" is 106%, but this in no way implies crusade is applying twice, as 200 * 1.03 = 206 (still showing a 3% increase)


Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
Am I correct if I assume there's nothing like armor or boss level miss/dodge included in the spreadsheet? The Warrior and Rogue Spreadsheets use a base armor of around 7700 as far as I know and having armor in your spreadsheet as well would help with three things:
1. Cross-class-comparison on boss fights
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
3. The higher your target's armor, the more damage comes from your SoC/SoB in comparison to autoattack and CS, so 0 armor calculations aren't correct if you look at the value of stats like spell damage.
The spreadsheet is actually fairly comprehensive. It is modelled around a level 73 mob. Factors in miss/dodge/parry/glancing blows/resists/partial resists and armor levels.

The armor value is set at 6200 at the moment (most tbc bosses seem to have 6200/7700). However is the other spreadsheets are using 7700 will include that value.

Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
I'm wondering if it's possible to skip Benediction (or take less than 5 points in it) without major ill effects. I find it difficult to take all the Ret talents I want since I still need Precision from Prot.
The spreadheet i have factors in armour penetration. Hard to rate it in terms of itemization as no one know how many points of armour pen you get for 1 itemization point. Some items with armour pen seem to have their stats distributed well whilst others not so well. So best to look at it item by item.

Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
The JoL numbers look about right, are those including the UA bug or regular ticks?
I thought i had read the UA bug had been fixed now?
#84SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Osse
Assuming your raid uses CoR FF and sunders on bosses you should just change the armor value to 2190 or 3690 for real dps values.
#85SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Assuming your raid uses CoR FF and sunders on bosses you should just change the armor value to 2190 or 3690 for real dps values.
The model factors in CoR/FF/Sunders/Armor Pen. These are not however in the Buff/Talents/Pots section to turn on/off (but will be there soon)
#86SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Frah
Do not think anyone has mentioned this recent information yet.

WoW Forums -> Retribution Threat Change
After further discussion and testing we’ve decided to add threat reduction deep in the paladin's retribution tree. Fanaticism will now reduce threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%, in addition to its current effect.
This should help a ton. 30% threat reduction is way more than what most classes get (although a lot get total threat dumps)

I am no ret guru but now you guys have threat reduction hopefully your raid viability will go up tons. I would still like to find out if Vindication affects bosses.
#87SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Chicken
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I thought i had read the UA bug had been fixed now?
The UA bug has indeed been fixed now, but it's still a good thing to double check, since it's likely some WWS's will have Judgement of Light with the UA bug included from pre-2.2.

Edit: Though the numbers do seem about right in comparison to what I see in-game. Properly set up Assessment so it can track gains through JoL and JoW is nice for this kind of stuff.

Last edited by Chicken : 10/18/07 at 6:23 AM.
#88SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Warrior + ench shaman + retri paladin all get that -30% treath reduction.
#89SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Warrior + ench shaman + retri paladin all get that -30% treath reduction.
Shamans only get their reduction applied to white hits, windfury, and stormstrike. We get blanket threat reduction.

The Ideal Mp5 post has been updated. Arcane mages I'm not too sure of, their spell rotations vary greatly depending on group makeup and CC procs.
#90SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Sorry, Damn double post with edit

I suck!
#91SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
The JoL numbers look about right, are those including the UA bug or regular ticks?
Regular ticks.

And the mage part was 1st caster I checked for example. it would be good to have 3 most optimal cycles and their possible ticks for joW / second.
#92SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Regular ticks.

And the mage part was 1st caster I checked for example. it would be good to have 3 most optimal cycles and their possible ticks for joW / second.
Figure that the average caster might get one spell every ~2-3 seconds. With a 50% proc rate, that's 10 procs a minute.
#93SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I think you maths is a little off. Crusade isn't applying twice on crits. It's just increasing the value of the crit by 3%

Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit With Crusade = 103
Crit with Crusade = 206

Yes the "Base hit (100)" to "Crit with crusade(206)" is 106%, but this in no way implies crusade is applying twice, as 200 * 1.03 = 206 (still showing a 3% increase)
It doesn't work this way if you test it in game.

Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit with crusade = 103
Crit with crusade = 212

You can test it using a low damage range weapon. The rogue talent murder and the hunter slaying talents work the same way.
#94SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Figure that the average caster might get one spell every ~2-3 seconds. With a 50% proc rate, that's 10 procs a minute.
Well, we dont really care about assumptions. Its easy to check out from theorycraft posts for each class or just see one of the best Shadowpriest WWS logs for reference.
#95SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wrl
Originally Posted by grover View Post
It doesn't work this way if you test it in game.

Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit with crusade = 103
Crit with crusade = 212

You can test it using a low damage range weapon. The rogue talent murder and the hunter slaying talents work the same way.
I noticed similar funkiness with crusade applying twice as well, although it wasn't specifically on crits, just specifically on SoC/SoB it appeared to be getting 2 applications.
#96SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Well, we dont really care about assumptions. Its easy to check out from theorycraft posts for each class or just see one of the best Shadowpriest WWS logs for reference.
Shadowpriest logs won't tell you anything, since you'll see the DoT ticks, then you have to guess how many spell casts were used, and how many of those were overlapping.

The fastest possible spellcasting is one every 1.5 seconds. No caster except a destruction warlock spamming searing pain comes anywhere near this.

Fire mages pretty much only chain cast fireball, with fireblast/scorch weaved in - the average is probably around 2.5 seconds.

Hunters get a huge bonus, due to their shot constantly triggering them.

Warlocks, depending on spec, are probably around ~2 seconds as well.

If you want a good back of the envolope calculation, 2 seconds as the exceptional case and 3 second as the lower case are good approximation for how often a caster hits a boss. Empirical data can be horrendously misleading if you don't know how to interpret it or don't know what you are looking it, as you did above with arcane missile spam.
#97SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Arkhubar
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

Mana consumption:

Something I haven't really seen mentioned here explicitly: Alchemist's Stone.

Personally in most fights that don't have much AoE damage, I chug Super Mana Potions every cooldown, sometimes throw in a Fel Mana Potion instead if I'm really low and occasionally Dark Runes.

I've actually had very good results with Dreamless Sleep Potions in fights where you need to move back or have a couple seconds "aggro break".

With Alchemist's Stone, all of these (- the dark runes) give 40% more mana, Dreamless Sleep Potions which normally give 3600 mana (and HP) give you a fat 5040 mana/hp with Alchemist's Stone equipped.

Having all this extra mana gives me a lot of leeway in putting consecration into my spam rotations and has an even greater effect on undead/demon mobs where you can additionally use exorcism.

Also keep in mind Alchemist's Stone gives 15agi/15str/15int which all work towards our damage: 0.66% crit/36.3AP/~250 mana with kings and Div Str.

This aside, I've yet to compare which has the upper hand: "Real DPS trinket" (with a big static benefit like Bloodlust Brooch/Tsunami Talisman/MotB) + no consecration spam vs Alchemist's Stone + consecration spam.

I mentioned it in passing in my post but its absolutely essential to sustaining the mana generation I need to use the higher rotation I mentioned. Likewise though I have yet to see which is better a real DPS trinket or the Alchy stone. Seeing as how for me alchy stone is at least 88 dps (consecrate averages to 88 on most fights for me) + the stat bonuses I'd need to find a trinket that pushed 90 or more to do better.
#98SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
bellator
Updated Paladin DPS Model

Cromfel, if you could change your initial post to link this

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Changes:-

1) Mob's armour increased to 7700 from 6200 to be in line with other sheets
2) Sunder Armor/FaerieFire/CoR all included in the Talents/Buffs/Pots Section
3) Band of Eternity (exhaulted) proc included as an estimation

4) A New Tab called "Item Calc" is now in the database. Items selected from the character sheet will appear in purple boxes in this sheet. Clicking the "Analyse Items" button will check each item you have against each item in the database, and any items found in the database will appear below your selected item with a dps increase of that item over yours. NOTE:-

A) This is based on SoC rotation not SOB
B) Due to varying gem slots, it would provide a nightmare to code. The way it works is that it gets a base dps of your gear if it had +10Str gems into all your gems slots and then assumes the items it compares it with also are filled with +10Str gems. (I know this will add a little error into some of the differences, but far easier to code this way). Any enchants you have selected will of course be applied to the other items it compares your items to.

Last edited by bellator : 10/18/07 at 10:25 AM.
#99SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Yeah I updated the link
#100SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Cromfel, if you could change your initial post to link this

Free file hosting by Savefile.com
/cry

The macros now totally don't work (coming from version 8), even in the new tab! I'm mostly kidding, as I know it'd be hard to convert this entire thing to OO standards, but I just don't own a copy of Excel. Heh. Now the 502 errors are with the trinkets, and the rings. x_x

I don't suppose this would work if I installed IE and had an Excel viewer, would it? I'm not sure how limited support a viewer would have for macros, etc.
#101SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Yeah I updated the link
Crap, sorry cromfel, just as i uploaded it, i noticed an error in some of my codeing messing up imp totems. I quickly uploaded and edited the link before anyone would notice, but you beat me to it. Sorry. Mind editing link again. Thanks
#102SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Agonar
Also working on collecting Data for JoW/JoL(in fact im currently analyzing different WWS Reports). I can post my result sometime during the weekend(lacking time lately tho).

Maybe Cromfel will be able to make a compilation of average benefit per class for these specific Jugement so we can have a kind of "Table" to show to our guild.

On a side note: The rogues in my guild usually scream of happiness when i drop jugement of light

Last edited by Agonar : 10/18/07 at 11:01 AM.
#103SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
I've done some testing of crusade and meta gem on the 2.3 PTR using a [Club]

RED meta gem, 0/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 224-226
crit - 463-466
modifier - 1.06

RED meta gem, 3/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 231-233
crit - 491-494
modifier - 1.12

It's the same for all other melee attacks.
#104SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by grover View Post
I've done some testing of crusade and meta gem on the 2.3 PTR using a [Club]

RED meta gem, 0/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 224-226
crit - 463-466
modifier - 1.06

RED meta gem, 3/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 231-233
crit - 491-494
modifier - 1.12

It's the same for all other melee attacks.
Will try to adjust my model to take this into account. Is this doubling up effect due to a metagem/crusade interaction or is it still there when not using the crit modifier.
#105SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
I didn't test it this time, but speccing 3/3 crusade and using no meta gem gives the same results as 0/3 crusade with the meta gem activated.
So you have
no meta, 0/3 crusade = 1.00
no meta, 3/3 crusade = 1.06
meta, 0/3 crusade = 1.06
meta, 3/3 crusade = 1.12
#106SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wrl
Originally Posted by grover View Post
I've done some testing of crusade and meta gem on the 2.3 PTR using a [Club]

RED meta gem, 0/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 224-226
crit - 463-466
modifier - 1.06

RED meta gem, 3/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 231-233
crit - 491-494
modifier - 1.12

It's the same for all other melee attacks.
Could you try and get some data on SoB or SoC as well? I am convinced that it is getting more than 35/70% And I am talking non crits too.
#107SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3SomeoneRandom
Just finished catching up on the thread, and wanted to thank Cromfel for doing this, I am new to Retribution and every tool helps.

Onto the real meat of my post though, I was curious if any testings have gone into trying out the new Badges Libram [Libram of Divine Judgement] comparative to the usual [Libram of Avengement]. Particularly how it applies to Blood Elves. I know SoB is better than SoC in a pure dps measurement, but from what I understand this new libram might tip the scales, especially if your spamming rank 1 for mana efficiency?

I have yet to be able to get onto the PTR to test this, hopefully someone else can shed some light on the subject.
#108SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Bellator, no idea if anyone alerted you but now the macros don't work at all, at least on Excel 2003. Getting Error 1004 all the time and I have absolutely no idea what's causing this.
#109SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Bellator, no idea if anyone alerted you but now the macros don't work at all, at least on Excel 2003. Getting Error 1004 all the time and I have absolutely no idea what's causing this.
To avoid spamming the thread, I was waiting for an opportune time to mention this, but they don't even work in OOo anymore (or my Excel 2003 viewer, which is patched up to the latest). The buttons just don't do anything, and in OOo they give errors.
#110SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Gonjaman
I was also wondering if people had tested the new librams vs the standard libram of avengement? Are they worth it?

I've been reading through this all day at work (shh don't tell the boss), and wanteed to thank everyone. I rolled ret for a long time, am currently tank, but going back to ret when 2.3 goes live (ret on pve test server), and i'm glad blizz is finally doing something for us.
#111SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
New spreadsheet versions (recommend instead of older ones!)
Excel
Open Office
#112SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
To avoid spamming the thread, I was waiting for an opportune time to mention this, but they don't even work in OOo anymore (or my Excel 2003 viewer, which is patched up to the latest). The buttons just don't do anything, and in OOo they give errors.
@Kris & Prepared

With regards the file not working in OO/Excel 2003 Viewer/Excel 2003, i'm at a loss.

Over the last few version i have completely re-written a lot of the code to make it simpler going forward for me to update the file. However the version of Excel I am using to create it is 2003 so Excel 2003 and Excel viewer should have no problem with it.

Have made some bug fixes and changed the way i have declared sub functions, so hopefully people will have some more joy with this version. Anyone who is able / not able to get this one to work, let me know and will try to get it resolved.

Free file hosting by Savefile.com
#113SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
@Kris & Prepared

With regards the file not working in OO/Excel 2003 Viewer/Excel 2003, i'm at a loss.

Over the last few version i have completely re-written a lot of the code to make it simpler going forward for me to update the file. However the version of Excel I am using to create it is 2003 so Excel 2003 and Excel viewer should have no problem with it.

Have made some bug fixes and changed the way i have declared sub functions, so hopefully people will have some more joy with this version. Anyone who is able / not able to get this one to work, let me know and will try to get it resolved.

Free file hosting by Savefile.com
This version is just about as broken as the other, sadly. I did discover a difference between versions 8 and 14, which I have uploaded as HTML examples... just to show what it looks like on my end.

Version 8

Version 14

I hope that this visual helps somewhat!

PS: Do you think maybe we should make a separate thread about this, so we don't clutter all the theorycrafters?
#114SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Igniter
When you add, you should add in stat weights for a mutually agreed on base stats like the enh shamans did, so the average joe (mid ssc/tk) can base their choices on a formula over what looks good. As well, think about adding popular builds/easy to obtain weapons since the questions will flood for information. You could probably just liberate most of the enh shaman thread and switch it to paladins values, Malan did a great job constructing it.
#115SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
V15 of model Free file hosting by Savefile.com hopefully fixing the err:502
#116SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
To avoid spamming the thread, I was waiting for an opportune time to mention this, but they don't even work in OOo anymore (or my Excel 2003 viewer, which is patched up to the latest). The buttons just don't do anything, and in OOo they give errors.
When i opened it, I ended up having to go into Tools>Macro>Security and lowering the level to Medium. That might be why your macro buttons don't work.
#117SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xellos
I recently picked up [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] and I am already looking at possible future upgrades. Would it be worth it to bid for [Leggings of Divine Retribution] or just wait for [Legguards of Endless Rage]? The greaves will have about 20 more STR after gems and I'm not familiar with how much armor penetration will affect retadin dps.
#118SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
When i opened it, I ended up having to go into Tools>Macro>Security and lowering the level to Medium. That might be why your macro buttons don't work.
That's where my setting has been the entire time, and I do select to "enable macros". I didn't include the actual error because the dialog box loads weird on my computer at work, but once I am home I can edit this to reflect the actual error message.

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
V15 of model Free file hosting by Savefile.com hopefully fixing the err:502
This version is better. The ring and trinket errors are gone, but they still appear in the following rows:

Divine Strength
BoK
Librams
All DPS totals
All Stat totals under Information

So whatever you changed is on the right track!
#119SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3trangoul
Spell Damage Ret???

So I have been playing around with numbers slightly in game, and was wondering if anyone is able to run or can link me to where there is a post about this following question/build (as i looked but couldn't find one)...

I was wondering what viability, (if any) there is to a spell damage ret build that has seal/judgment of righteousness as the main dps? something around 10/8/43 that maximizes holy damage done, and gets imp SoR and whatnot. then instead of using a power 2 handed use something like the sword of leo, and sheild off nightbane. (or the new 2 hander with 168 spell dmg coming from zul'aman). I am a prot pally, and currently my guilds MT, and we are just starting Mag/TK/SSC (Ive had plenty of experience in SSC/TK on my lock), and was wondering how that ret spell dmg ranks up in case I can go dps for a while if we get a better MT. with my rather lacking spell dmg gear, im around 650dmg unbuffed, but have almost enough crit and spell crit in that gear to have vengeance up 100% of the time with just melees and judgments... But I would really love to see the numbers done by an expert on how maximizing spell dmg and useing SoR would stack up to the standard 2-hander SoC build. I'm hoping that in the somewhat near future with new heroic loot I should be able to get around 850-900ish spell dmg while maintaining about 25% critrate after talents (which on a 1.8 weapon speed is usually good enough for vengeance). I know the white dmg is terrible, but does the spell damage make up for it with SoR/JoR/Crusader and if you got a SP in the group feeding you mana, and get another pally to JoW, consecration damage too...

Thanks in advanced for any and all help!
#120SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
I recently picked up [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] and I am already looking at possible future upgrades. Would it be worth it to bid for [Leggings of Divine Retribution] or just wait for [Legguards of Endless Rage]? The greaves will have about 20 more STR after gems and I'm not familiar with how much armor penetration will affect retadin dps.
The answer all depends on your other gear. Leggings of Divine retribution are imo the best leggings in game if you are already hit capped. If you are not hit capped, the the legguards of endless rage are the better option
#121SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by trangoul View Post
So I have been playing around with numbers slightly in game, and was wondering if anyone is able to run or can link me to where there is a post about this following question/build (as i looked but couldn't find one)...

I was wondering what viability, (if any) there is to a spell damage ret build that has seal/judgment of righteousness as the main dps? something around 10/8/43 that maximizes holy damage done, and gets imp SoR and whatnot. then instead of using a power 2 handed use something like the sword of leo, and sheild off nightbane. (or the new 2 hander with 168 spell dmg coming from zul'aman). I am a prot pally, and currently my guilds MT, and we are just starting Mag/TK/SSC (Ive had plenty of experience in SSC/TK on my lock), and was wondering how that ret spell dmg ranks up in case I can go dps for a while if we get a better MT. with my rather lacking spell dmg gear, im around 650dmg unbuffed, but have almost enough crit and spell crit in that gear to have vengeance up 100% of the time with just melees and judgments... But I would really love to see the numbers done by an expert on how maximizing spell dmg and useing SoR would stack up to the standard 2-hander SoC build. I'm hoping that in the somewhat near future with new heroic loot I should be able to get around 850-900ish spell dmg while maintaining about 25% critrate after talents (which on a 1.8 weapon speed is usually good enough for vengeance). I know the white dmg is terrible, but does the spell damage make up for it with SoR/JoR/Crusader and if you got a SP in the group feeding you mana, and get another pally to JoW, consecration damage too...

Thanks in advanced for any and all help!
A couple of nifty resources for figuring this out, that I've seen:

Paladin DPS Calculator (javascript needed)

Paladin Holy DPS (this forum)
#122SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
It seems to one of the large questions in the air right now is some kind of stat equivalency formula. I recently hit 70 on my new paladin (raided with a paladin pre-TBC) after raiding with a hunter up to SSC. I'm playing catchup on gear and occasionally I get the chance at a pretty big +spell dmg item which might be an upgrade over my current blue. After some extensive reading an number crunching, I'm almost entirely outfitted in melee plate.

My big question is what amount of +spell dmg would be equivalent to AP or STR? It's not a matter of "don't take it at all" but rather of finding it's relative value. Do I avoid all paladin Tier 4 gear in favor of melee plate? Probably not, but I have limited information for making those judgements.

What I'd really like to do is figure out some type of equivalency chart or table to compare stats to one another. What I'd love to do is figure out how much STR/AP a point of spell damage is worth and translate that into my comparisons.

Using the numbers from this site http://www.91nine.com/dps/paladin.php (I'm not sure how accurate they are) based off my current level of gear, adding the 30 spell damage from my Oathkeeper (oh so close to crafting my Thunder, stupid primals) over a baseline of no spell damage adds 3 DPS for 30 spell damage, or 1 DPS per 10 spell damage. That means each point of spell damage adds .1 DPS.

Using bellator's gear presets from his spreadsheet, the Tier 4 gear (including all the default buffs and with the sword replaced with a Hammer of the Naaru, since the above site doesn't model haste rating) I saw a pretty big variance when adding an additional 30 spell damage. The difference in DPS was 36.16, which meant that 1.2 DPS was added per point of spell damage. That means that at that level of gear spell damage is worth twelve times as much as it is in blues. That doesn't quite make sense to me.

I realized part of my mistake was that I was relying on one run through of the simulator. It turns out my tier 4 run through was a little high. The average with the additional 30 spell damage was more like 1260 instead of 1273. That's still a 23 DSP increase of the minor 3 DPS increase I saw at the blue level. Rerunning those numbers, I saw a shift when I ran the simulation six times and took the average. There was a 7 DPS difference at that point, which meant spell damage was worth .23 DPS a point. That's in sharp contrast to the .7 DPS that the averaged numbers give for the tier 4 set number, still.

I only got more confused when I tried the tier 5 gear numbers. This time the spell damage added .17 DPS per point, averaged over 6 simulations. This was less than the original blue numbers. /headasplode

Aside from simple needing to run these simulation more than 6 times (each which represents 5000 seconds of combat, which is 83 minutes) why the big difference in DPS added per point of spell damge? These numbers make it sound like there might be a bell curve in there somewhere.

Since I ran into this confusion, I never got around to testing how adding AP would work at each level, and thus don't have a ratio of how much Spell damage is worth compared to STR or AP.
#123SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ragnor
Plugging my gear/short term wishlist into the spreadsheet for me it takes ~30 +dmg for a 10dps increase vs ~10str for the same dps increase, meaning +dmg is awful and I should stack str as much as possible.

However remember "warrior" style gear does not have int, +dmg gear does, so you will need need to wear some "paladin" style gear to give you a decent mana pool to work with.

PS: The spreadsheet is really coming along nicely, highly anticipating ac penetration being taken into account somehow and represented.
#124SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Plugging my gear/short term wishlist into the spreadsheet for me it takes ~30 +dmg for a 10dps increase vs ~10str for the same dps increase, meaning +dmg is awful and I should stack str as much as possible.

However remember "warrior" style gear does not have int, +dmg gear does, so you will need need to wear some "paladin" style gear to give you a decent mana pool to work with.

PS: The spreadsheet is really coming along nicely, highly anticipating ac penetration being taken into account somehow and represented.
Cheers . Though AC Penetration is already in the sheet. It's the column "ArmP". Though it's not possible to put into the graph as no one knows how much Armor Penetration you get per itemisation point spent.
#125SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Lavis Knight
I did notice that the SOC rank 1 seemed to fall behind quite a bit in your calculations if you factor in time 5 minutes Vs 3 minutes? If they were both 5 minutes wouldn't SOC max rank far surpass the first rank? (Assuming of course you could sustain the mana cost)

I just think to say that there is such a small difference between them but only factor in 5 minutes Vs 3 minutes is a little misleading. (Raids may offer additional support.)

I am also wondering what you mean about the 8 second judgment? Do you mean to say that due to GCD it is nearly as beneficial to use 9 seconds?

I find the analysis very helpful though Cromfel ^^ thank you.

Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.
I would suggest if we are to put these measurements into an over time value we should try to pick a time and call it dps time or melee time. After an arbitrary number is chosen then you can extrapolate the number of attacks a certain class should reasonably have during that time. Base this on ideal weapon speeds (Such as roughly 3.6-3.8 for a ret paladin) for the class in question and figure out dps rotations that are most used by a certain spec that can trigger the judgments.

Forget about group buffs for now. So you'll be able to say such and such a class should be getting roughly at the least X health per second for 5 minutes of continuous melee.

I think such a unit would simplify the process. Its a lot easier to say you should be getting x health per second for every 5 minutes of continuous melee than to say this is how much you will get for a certain boss fight.

Last edited by Lavis Knight : 10/18/07 at 8:09 PM.
#126SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3SomeoneRandom
Although I have yet to test this for multiple hours, the small test I did do showed [Libram of Avengement] to fall behind the new libram by somewhere around 20 dps, with a judge every 8 seconds.

There is also a bug with the Libram of Avengement that makes it refresh itself whenever you would refresh Vengeance, which is quite an odd bug, that is quite in favor of this libram, but it still falls behind =\

Also, as I said I am still somewhat new to this whole Retribution thing, what exact cycle do most people use in actual raids, I understand that during a raid I would have a few buffs to improve my efficiency, but at a full burn with only Judgements / Crusader Strikes I was still going completely dry in 97(SOB) - 140 seconds(R1 SOC), and that doesnt include anything like Concecrates / Exorcisms.

Do most people not judge until their seal is about to fall off? Or is it usually accepted that it is worth it to keep up a libram buff?
#127SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Plugging my gear/short term wishlist into the spreadsheet for me it takes ~30 +dmg for a 10dps increase vs ~10str for the same dps increase, meaning +dmg is awful and I should stack str as much as possible.

However remember "warrior" style gear does not have int, +dmg gear does, so you will need need to wear some "paladin" style gear to give you a decent mana pool to work with.

PS: The spreadsheet is really coming along nicely, highly anticipating ac penetration being taken into account somehow and represented.
That doesn't mean +dmg is awful at all. All it means is that damage and strength needs to be weighted. If I have a choice between 31 dmg and 10 strength, I take the dmg.

This comes into better contrast when you consider a piece of "ret" gear versus a piece of "warrior" gear. If the difference is 15 STR, but I get 20 INT and 30 spell damage instead, the only real difference is 20 INT for 5 STR, which is a switch I may be willing to take depending on my mana pool.

Blindly choosing to take melee only stats on gear is silly. The real goal is to maximize efficiency and DPS. Knowing how stats like spell damage play into that is important in understanding how this works.
#128SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Cheers . Though AC Penetration is already in the sheet. It's the column "ArmP". Though it's not possible to put into the graph as no one knows how much Armor Penetration you get per itemisation point spent.
The "StatMod" for AC penetration looks to be about 0.1 based on s3 gladiator gear (the same as the value for ac) if that's any use.
#129SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Also, as I said I am still somewhat new to this whole Retribution thing, what exact cycle do most people use in actual raids, I understand that during a raid I would have a few buffs to improve my efficiency, but at a full burn with only Judgements / Crusader Strikes I was still going completely dry in 97(SOB) - 140 seconds(R1 SOC), and that doesnt include anything like Concecrates / Exorcisms.

Do most people not judge until their seal is about to fall off? Or is it usually accepted that it is worth it to keep up a libram buff?
Mana potions: Comparing soloing to raid environment really doesn't work, since I doubt you use mana potions while grinding

Also if I'm grinding then I tend not to judge too excessively, but obviously use CS everytime it's up to conserve mana.

In a raid, you "must" judge and CS everytime they're up in order to have any hopes of offering competitive DPS.

However with raid damage (or SoB if you have it) and incoming heals coupled with Spiritual Attunement you get some more mana to work with. JoW from another paladin, BoW if you're lucky enough and have 4 or more paladins in raid, Mana Spring totem from the shammy in your group pretty much turn the tables on your lack of mana.

You should be spamming mana potions also and if you need it, get an Alchemist's Stone (check my post a few pages back).

I guess what you noticed while soloing is the horribly badly designed mana efficiency of ret paladins. We don't use much mana, but we also have almost no mana regen in our gear what so ever when we're on our own. Which is why in a raid with the above mentioned buffs it's like night and day (comparing soloing to raiding).


Oh and PVP with a private healer is awesome (=infinite mana)
#130SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
About Str (and pure "warrior gear") vs Spelldamage ("ret gear"):

I'm sure it's beyond a doubt that if you compare point to point, STR is far superior, however:

Originally Posted by Nicolai View Post
This comes into better contrast when you consider a piece of "ret" gear versus a piece of "warrior" gear. If the difference is 15 STR, but I get 20 INT and 30 spell damage instead, the only real difference is 20 INT for 5 STR, which is a switch I may be willing to take depending on my mana pool.
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
However remember "warrior" style gear does not have int, +dmg gear does, so you will need need to wear some "paladin" style gear to give you a decent mana pool to work with.

This is exactly it, technically you could go for full out warrior gear, but you'll end up with a horribly small mana pool, which will be a big problem in most fights.



Bellator's spreadsheet:

I really appreciate the work in Bellator's spreadsheet, but I have to question the validity of some of the suggested "best DPS" items vs equivalent item value "ret gear" like Tier 6.

If you follow the above, I think the spreadsheet currently seems to miss any weight for int and/or mana regen that I can see.

Loading up v15 of the spreadsheet, SoC dps is 1412 DPS and 159 int for the "Tier 6" set and 1473 DPS and 85 int for the "Best of Best" profile.

Is a calculated ~60 DPS worth losing 74 int = 1221 mana (with BoK)? (And even more mana if you opt out for different bracers/belt than in the "Tier 6" profile for example).

In addition, items like the T6 pants have 9mp5 and the 2 set bonus (chance to gain 50 mana on melee hit) further add more mana efficiency, which is a hidden bonus which I'm not sure is considered in the spreadsheet.

I guess what I'm saying is: As an experiment of theoretical numbers, yes, this set offers more dps than that set. But in a realistic environment, which set would perform better?

The spreadsheet is definitely going the right way, but I think some weight should be added to int/mana regen, since I don't think it's possible to go all out warrior gear and not be completely mana starved.


Also, is there any way to check for an increase in the worth of spelldamage, depending on how much armor the boss/mob has?
#131SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
If you follow the above, I think the spreadsheet currently seems to miss any weight for int and/or mana regen that I can see.
Do other spreadsheets do this kind of weighing, for casters? I know the Moonkin DPS sheet has a table which says how much damage is expected for different cast cycles, and how long mana should last assuming certain facts about regen and buffs. Perhaps this would be easy to emulate for Paladin purposes, assuming no heals and thus no Spiritual Attunement?
#132SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
I was checking some differences between JoW, JotC, BoW and BoM for damage gained compared to combat duration lost before running oom. I performed some Blasted Lands tests with each setup and then tried to reproduce the results in theoretical environment how things could be calculated without field tests. For theory I just used manaconsumption of each skill as if they were used instantly when CD was available. There was effect that I had to bend the results similiar to field tests trough spirit regen (By trying to assume effect of spirit regen). I kinda ran out of ways how to make this 100% accurate :P

Duration in seconds how long I could keep up the dps before running oom.

Regen: JoW/BoW/Spirit (For JoW I used PTR proc rates)



Here are some results. Im not really sure why the BoW+JotC combination was so much different from theory than it is with blasted lands test. Feel free to jump along if anyone wants to do this 100% accurately in meaning of optimal best case scenario in zero latency etc.

Last edited by Cromfel : 10/18/07 at 11:47 PM.
#133SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
More JoW updates.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.

Again, I'll keep adding more as I can. If you see any glaring problems please speak up.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/19/07 at 2:58 PM.
#134SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Guys remember that the max mana # is quite insiginificant compared to the mana regened in combat by all other factors, which makes int really not all that exciting as you're making it to be. I do agree at least an estimated conversion rate of spell damage->str should be made until we have a good spreadsheet where you can put your own gear and see exactly how much it converts to for you.
#135SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Once you enter BT and MH there's quite a lot of raid damage, so you regain a ton of mana from healing. I've had absolutely no problem maintaining a full CS+JoC cycle and I even squeeze an Exorcism from time to time. Once mana is not a problem spells like Exorcism and Consecration tip the scales a bit more in favor of spell damage, not enough to surpass strength of course but it still has some use.
#136SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
More JoW updates.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5: 154.17 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.

Again, I'll keep adding more as I can. If you see any glaring problems please speak up.
The shadowpriest numbers look quite high. Did you include each tick of mindflay as procing JoW?

Even assuming the ideal case scenario of one tick/gcd, that would be around 50% chance of restoring 75 mana per 1.5 seconds, or 75 mana / 3, or 75 / 3 *5 mana per 5, roughly 125 mana/5. That's the complete utter highest number obtainable unless there is a flaw in my math.

Obviously, that's completely unrealistic, since no caster always casts one instant spell every GCD, although shadow priests get the closest if they don't use mindflay much. Arcane mages are the only class that gets above that, but they are gone in the next patch.
#137SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
I guess my point was that despite a DPS spreadsheet being an excellent tool for theoretical purposes, it shouldn't be more than a guide rather than a rule since there's no weight on int/mana regen

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Guys remember that the max mana # is quite insiginificant compared to the mana regened in combat by all other factors, which makes int really not all that exciting as you're making it to be.

A simple example would be a pure burn down fight with 0 incoming damage like Shade of Akama where you don't have enough time to take more than 1 single mana potion.

With full warrior gear. I guarantee you'll be reduced to autoattacking pretty fast.

Obviously the reverse is true at fights like Teron or Reliquary where there's lots of incoming damage.

Anyway, no one is saying you should stack int rather than damage stats, however I still believe some int is a must rather than all out warrior gear, and will gain better results on average.

The leeway to use consecration more often is definitely a very welcome plus.
#138SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Well, you can use hunter gear then, plenty of ap and crit + some int.
#139SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Amera
Yes, but it is AP and not Str, so it won't synergize as well with talents.
#140SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Well, you can use hunter gear then, plenty of ap and crit + some int.
Why are people hell bent at escaping from actual ret gear. You know while spelldamage isn't the top dog stat, it's still very useful to have.

Anyway, I think this is digressing away from my original point which is evaluating the worth of "warrior gear" vs ret gear in practice rather than theory (spreadsheet).


Originally Posted by Amera View Post
Yes, but it is AP and not Str, so it won't synergize as well with talents.
What she said.
#141SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Because I do more damage with my T4 shoulders than I do with T5, just cause T5 has so many wasted points on Spell Damage.
#142SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Because I do more damage with my T4 shoulders than I do with T5, just cause T5 has so many wasted points on Spell Damage.
T5 has "8" more spelldamage than T4 eh, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It also has 5 more str and ~0.2% more crit. The only thing T4 has that T5 doesn't is the hit rating, so unless you need that hit rating to get over the hit cap and are missing while wearing T5, T4 is inferior in every way.

I think it's better to stop pursuing this argument at this point in order not to derail the thread
#143SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Regarding Int/Mp5 and why they are excluded from the damage analysis

There has been a little talk lately about Int/Mp5 and it's effect on dps. I thought i would give you my TC on Int/Mp5 and why i have chosed to ignore is as a weighting in my spreadsheet.

1)In any given fight a paldin uses X amount of mana per second through his abilities (SoC/JoC/CS). He also gains Y mana per second through BoW/JoW/Mana Potting. If for any given dps rotation....

Mana Pool - (Fight Duration in seconds * (Y-X) > 0

...then the paladin will not run out of mana during the fight

2) The absolute minimum rotation a paladin must do is to keep SoC uptime at 100% and use CS on cooldown. Using version 16 (hopefully released later tofay) of my calculation you can see that with Bow/JoW/Mana pots this is easily obtainable in 0mp5 gear. Because of this, the dps gain mp5 will give you is from allowing you to judge at a more regular interval or allowing you to use other abilities such as exorcism.

3) So lets look at two example of Mp5 increasing dps:-

A) I plugged in a tier 5 set with 0 mp5. I found out that it enabled me to keep CS/SoC up and judge SoC every 15.85 seconds keeping mana lost/gained equal. To reduce this to a 9 sec judgement took 50.9mp5 and produced a 45.5dps increase. If this Mp5 was itemised as strength then you would get 127.25 Strength would have increased dps by 76.7.

B) Now let's look at Exorcism. 1Mp5 allows you to cast 1 exorcism every 1700 seconds for an average hit of 985 (with 200 spell damage + jotc). This works out at 0.58 dps per 1mp5. Since 1 Mp5 would give you 2.5 strength which equates to roughtly 1.5dps increase. Again mp5 is far less effective than strength.

4) As a quick note, i have focused on Mp5. Since 1Mp5 = 2.5int, after Bok etc have been taken into account 1Mp5 produces more mana than Int after 3min20sec. Since most fights are longer than this, i have used Mp5 in the calculations above as it is the stonger of the two stats.

Conclusion:-

What this all means is that whilst Int /Mp5 do have an effect on dps, the gains by putting the stats elsewhere (str/crit) is far greater. However in terms of gear selection, some items such as lightbringer may work out to produce a higher dps output than warrior equivalent gear due to the fact that it allows you to alter your playstyle to include more JoC etc into your rotation. This however is impossible to model as the model is based upon fixed gear/buff/playstyle. It would be a nightmare to model playstyle based on mana/int.

However in the next version of the model that should come out later today there will be an ability to alter your playstlyle slightly, there will be a mana analysis and there along with the dps output there will be a time till OOM, so you can adjust gear/playstle until you get the right combination of dps and time till OOM.
#144SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Djardin
Would it be possible for Bellator to include (improved)SoR in his DPS spreadsheet ?

The reason why I ask that is the recent tests we did me and our resident ret paladin on the 2.3 PTR with the blasted land immortal mob :

We tried different setups, but generally we had all the PVE ret talents but I was using improved SoR and him SoC:
- my stats on the PTR in DPS gear with BoM and full stacks of darkmoon card crusade buffs are around 1400 attack power, +650 spell damage, around 23% melee crit, 13% spell crit. I was swinging Bloodmoon
- my friends stats with BoM and full stacks of darkmoon card crusade buffs are around 2200 attack power, +280 spell damage, 30% melee crit, 8% spell crit, he's using worldbreaker.

[EDIT detailled gear]
- My DPS gear consisted of the following parts:
- T4 ret helm enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- honor spell damage neck gemmed in spell damage
- Arena S1 ret shoulder and chest enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- honor S1 ret bracer enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- Arena S3 ret gloves, unenchanted or T4 ret gloves enchanted in spell damage (I tried both)
- honor S2 ret belt
- Arena S2 ret legs enchanted in spell damage
- honer S2 ret boots
- 2 spell damage rings (exalted Kara and another random one from Kara)
- darkmoon card crusade
- heroic badges spell damage trincket
- bloodmoon
- new SoR libram (I usually used libram of Zeal, but this new one seems better).
- My SoC friend gear is the following:
- 4 Arena S2 ret pieces enchanted and gemmed in strength/melee crit
- Blacksmith T3 chest
- Worldbreaker with savagery
- neck from SSC, 1 epic melee ring from SSC, 1 from exalted Shatar.
- bracers from Lurker
- crafted belft from SSC
- Honor S2 ret boots
- darkmoon card crusade
- +70 AP and haste on use blue trincket from mechanar.
- libram from blood furnace heroic.
[/EDIT]

The tests consisted on going all out while we were not oom (JoCr and JoW on the mob, so it lasted around 5 minutes), we both used concecration rank 1 in the rotations, we used all the trinckets, wings and everything when possible.

Using this setup, I constantly outDPS him by between 50 and 100 dps. My DPS using ImpSoR was around 1000 dps. My average SoR proc is around 900 (using the new SoR libram), my average normal JoR is around 1340, our average CS are about the same (around 1150).

Another thing we tried is adding an elemental shamy (so, no unleashed rage) in the group, when he used grace of air, my DPS advantage increased to +150 DPS compared to my friend. When he used WF then my SoC friend managed to finally outdps me by around 40 DPS ... For my SoR spec, the DPS increase of grace of air or WF was about the same.

I know that this mob is far from being a raid boss, that's why I think it would help the theorycrafting if Bellator could add SoR in his DPS spreadsheet

Last edited by Djardin : 10/19/07 at 10:03 AM.
#145SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
Would it be possible for Bellator to include (improved)SoR in his DPS spreadsheet ?

The reason why I ask that is the recent tests we did me and our resident ret paladin on the 2.3 PTR with the blasted land immortal mob :
Quick question on your testing: Which one of you had more threat, or was it about even? Reason I ask is parries, though probably very uncommon for a mob that low, would skew the numbers, even slightly. Not to mention that is a fairly short sample time, in my opinion. Can you also post the builds used, for my curiousity? I can't see where the five points would come from, to put into Imp. SoR to make this viable.
#146SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
Djardin can you tell me what kind of equip you use?
#147SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
- I edited my original post to detail my gear and my friend gear (I was swinging bloodmoon and not mooncleaver).
- I tanked all the tries we did by using rigteous fury (Omen said I was doing around 1300 TPS /flex .
#148SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
New DPS Model Version (**Big Update**)

Hi guys,

I have upgraded my Dps model. It can be found here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

This has lots of new functionality, so I will try to explain the model as much as possible here. Worth reading even if you have come to grips with previos version

1) The first section "Dps and Skill Overview" gives an overview of the different abilities used, their base mana cost, mana per second usage (mps) and dps contribution. Along with it is the overall dps and a new "Time till Out of Mana" figure

2) Below this is the "Information" section which gives stat data based on gear buffs etc. It now includes some information on mana.

3) The "Gear" section below this allows you to select your gear from the item in the database. By clicking the "Show Detail" button shows the gem/enchant slots and lets you select them. "Strength gems" button fills all your sockets with strength gems and "Correct Gems" fills all the sockets with the best gems to ensure the gem socket bonus is obtained. As usual you can save/load/delete gear profiles (some are already included)

4) "Talents/Buffs/Pots" section below this allows as always to turn on off various talents/buffs/pots

5) "Playstyle / Mana Info" is a NEW section which allows you to adjust various aspects of your playstyle / talents which effect the mana usage. This includes:-

A) Benedition - allows you to set how many talent points you have here
B) Sanctified Judgement - allows you to set how many talent points you have here (only 0,3 are options atm)
C) Rank of SoC Used - self explanatory
D) How Judgement is used - Gives 3 options. "On Cooldown" means you will judge whenever possible do that it does not interfer with SoC uptime or CS. "Every 30 seconds" means you judge every 30seconds and refresh seal. "Never" means you simply refresh seal every 30 seconds.
D) Blessing of Wisdom / JoW / Mana Pots on CoolDown / Shadow priest allow you to set how your group/buffs/pot usage is.

Below this it shows you your Mp5 from gear, total mps in, total mps out and an overal mps gain/loss

6) Just below this is a "Judgement CD Override". When this is turned on it allows you to set a specific time in seconds between each judgement.

What sections 5 & 6 allow you to do is check out the difference between dps gear with and without mp5/int. If you gear up with warrior and then switch to a play style which allows you to not go OOM, you can then put on int/mp5 gear and adjust the playstyle (more JoC's etc) to allow for the increased mana, and thus compare the different overall dps output of the two styles.

7) Finally there the graph section. The graph will only show either SoC or SoB as specified by the option. There is also an option to state how many armour penetration rating you get for 1 itemisation point (since this value is currently unknown). Pressing the button will show your overall dps increase as you spend itemization points in the various stats.

On the right hand side is the SEP (Strength Equivalence Points) of the various stats. It used 1 Strength as the base, and shows how much of each other stat is needed to obtain the same dps increase.

8) Finally, on the item calc sheet is a button which will work out various upgrades based on the buffs/items/playstyle selected.

....Thank you for your time


Some quick side notes:-

1) I know some people are having problems with the sheet in OOM etc. Unfortunately i do not have the time to learn how these various programs deal with VBA code. Whilst i will fix any bugs that occur, I don't have the time to ensure the spreadsheet is compatible with every program that can open it

2) SoB is not fully implemented in some of these calculations (ie the OOM figure) If i get the time, i will try to make it as functional for SoB as it is for SoC

3) If i get time i will include SoR. However i very much doubt i will have time and it is very low on my priority list as i can guarentee a str/ap SoC build in a raid environment will beat SoR ten times out of ten. My apologies.
#149SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Bellator, no idea how you changed things, but now the 1004 error when clicking the "Graph Calc" button is gone. If only you could make the same change for the other buttons it'd make the chart working for all of us unfortunate enough to be stuck with Excel 2003
#150SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
I have no trouble using any of the buttons or charts in Excel 2003, FWIW.
#151SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Kris, try updating your version of Excel 2003. The file was created in Excel 2003 (11.5612..6412)
#152SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Bellator, it looks like you were on track for the changes for the 502 errors (I could really care less about the buttons, except that's it's annoying that I can't socket any gems). Why the sudden change?

Also, v17 for some reason popped up at the start with: "This file contains links to other files. Should they be updated?"

I told it "no" because it was different than the others.
#153SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Gonjaman
For some reason, the Shoulder section has s1 and s2 chest pieces instead of shoulders.
#154SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Gonjaman
Also, the trinket section is mising the skyguard exalted dps trinket.
Missing crafted weapons from weapons section.
#155SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
1)In any given fight a paldin uses X amount of mana per second through his abilities (SoC/JoC/CS). He also gains Y mana per second through BoW/JoW/Mana Potting. If for any given dps rotation....

Mana Pool - (Fight Duration in seconds * (Y-X) > 0

...then the paladin will not run out of mana during the fight
I fully agree on that.


Originally Posted by bellator View Post
2) The absolute minimum rotation a paladin must do is to keep SoC uptime at 100% and use CS on cooldown.
I personally think this is an unacceptable minimum, I set my minimum at judging JoC on every cooldown, for the damage and especially to make use of libram effects (whether the +2.4% crit from avengement or the 200 AP from the PTR libram).

However, this is obviously a matter of choice/opinions.

I agree with the rest of your post, as long as the point is brought across that one should not blindly pile on the damage stats without considering mana, I'm happy


On another note, bellator, I have to say I'm impressed by the notes on the new version, much respect for your work mate

I'll check it out when I get home.

Btw: Does the new spreadsheet account for the loss of libram effectiveness if you don't judge on every cooldown?
#156SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Xoya
You guys should consider testing on the Halaa guards instead of Blasted Lands mobs. Even as a shaman with only ~5k armor, my healing stream totem (ticks for ~49? every 2 seconds) is enough to keep me alive for quite a long while (10+ minutes), and the Halaa guards have a ridiculous amount of health.
#157SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Bellator, it looks like you were on track for the changes for the 502 errors (I could really care less about the buttons, except that's it's annoying that I can't socket any gems). Why the sudden change?
This is still on my list of things to do. I've just put it off as it involves tediously going through the entire code and replacing 'blanks' with 0's :p

Originally Posted by Gonjaman View Post
For some reason, the Shoulder section has s1 and s2 chest pieces instead of shoulders.
Will be fixed in next version

Originally Posted by Gonjaman View Post
Also, the trinket section is mising the skyguard exalted dps trinket.
Missing crafted weapons from weapons section.
I felt the trinket was more of a grinding trinket, but may add it in next version. Will try to get some of the craftable weapons/armour added in.


Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
On another note, bellator, I have to say I'm impressed by the notes on the new version, much respect for your work mate

I'll check it out when I get home.

Btw: Does the new spreadsheet account for the loss of libram effectiveness if you don't judge on every cooldown?
Cheers Avitus. Hopefully the new features will allow you to see the effects of int/mp5 etc on longevity ets. And yes, loss of libram effectivess is factored in.


On another note, can someone confirm which of the following abilities do/do not proc JoW, as want to confirm my calcs are correct:-

Melee,SoC,JoC,SoB,JoC,CS,WF attack.

Cheers

Someone also pointed out to me that Libram of Divine judgement is also being applied in my model to SoB dps when the tooltip only mentions SoC. The way everything is coded makes it a complete pain to remove this error. Best work around is just not to equip it when looking at SoB dps.
#158SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
This is still on my list of things to do. I've just put it off as it involves tediously going through the entire code and replacing 'blanks' with 0's :p
If you can tell me which "blanks" need to be left alone, I can go ahead and do it myself, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm not here to debate coding progress; after all, most of it's not even commented. :P
#159SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Can any BE confirm Requitals report of JoB being based on melee hit unlike JoC that is based on spell hit?
#160SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Omniprescent
Can anyone tell me if Dragonspine Trophy is worth using for a BE paladin? May sound noobish but im not the greatest with numbers!
#161SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
The shadowpriest numbers look quite high. Did you include each tick of mindflay as procing JoW?

Even assuming the ideal case scenario of one tick/gcd, that would be around 50% chance of restoring 75 mana per 1.5 seconds, or 75 mana / 3, or 75 / 3 *5 mana per 5, roughly 125 mana/5. That's the complete utter highest number obtainable unless there is a flaw in my math.

Obviously, that's completely unrealistic, since no caster always casts one instant spell every GCD, although shadow priests get the closest if they don't use mindflay much. Arcane mages are the only class that gets above that, but they are gone in the next patch.
Ok, I was under the assumption that Mind Flay can proc JoW each tick of damage (like AM). If not the numbers will be much lower, I'll go ahead and update the list then. Thank you.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/19/07 at 3:04 PM.
#162SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Can any BE confirm Requitals report of JoB being based on melee hit unlike JoC that is based on spell hit?
In 5 WWS (around 2000 JoB's) I only had partial resists - I never actually had a full resist, which I think is what would show up if I 'missed'. I had around 2% partial resist.

In that same 5 WWS series I had less than 100 JoC's and missed 10%, and about 2% partial resist.

Not such a fantastic number of samples, but as a comparison they're interesting. I'll try to actually test this tonight - someone earlier suggested using halaa guards. I'm not sure how forgiving the alliance will be for my testing, but I might try those since it involves hit.
#163SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mulokmar
ret pallies suck, l2heal imo and let a dps or tanking warrior have ur spot
#164SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Trippy
Originally Posted by Mulokmar View Post
ret pallies suck, l2heal imo and let a dps or tanking warrior have ur spot
But I doubt a Warrior can Bless, keep Judgements up, provide 2% damage for his group, and give raidwide 3% crit while maintaining reasonable DPS.

#165SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Trippy View Post
But I doubt a Warrior can Bless, keep Judgements up, provide 2% damage for his group, and give raidwide 3% crit while maintaining reasonable DPS.

Don't feed the trolls.

Updated the JoW list to include what I think is about right for Enhancement Shamans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from items (Dragonspine Trophy proc), are not considered into the calculations. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Lightning Overload assumed perfect 20% proc rate

Enhancement (Duel Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Enhancement (2 Handed)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 102.78 Mp5

Windfury Weapon assumed perfect 20% proc rate on both weapons
Shocks assumed to have nontalented 6 second cooldown


Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/20/07 at 2:00 PM.
#166SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
The new 30% threat reduction and precision change got patched in today on the PTR!

Gonna do some testing.
#167SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Remius
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 92.5 Mp5
If Lightning Overload (36-40 point talent) can proc JoW then you can effectively increase this number by 20% over time. I'm not sure if it does though.
#168SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Prepared
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The new 30% threat reduction and precision change got patched in today on the PTR!

Gonna do some testing.
Edit: Nevermind, Blizzard decided it would be cute and let me actually log onto the PTR with an old build. Way to go!

Last edited by Prepared : 10/19/07 at 11:11 PM. Reason: Misinformation
#169SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Remius View Post
If Lightning Overload (36-40 point talent) can proc JoW then you can effectively increase this number by 20% over time. I'm not sure if it does though.
If anyone can confirm this it would be excellent. For now I will recalculate as it seems logical.

EDIT: The new PTR build is up in the states, but there are still a few connection issues. The queue is also at a record low so I would copy now if you want to check out the threat reduction.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/19/07 at 11:28 PM.
#170SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
900-950 dps in Blasted Lands with S2/3 PVP Gear and S2 Sword (only BoM/Crusader), up to 1100 dps with rang 1 concecration and AV with all out.
#171SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Kris, try updating your version of Excel 2003. The file was created in Excel 2003 (11.5612..6412)
I'm an update freak, using the latest from everything, Excel v. 11.8169.8172 SP3
#172SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
bellator
Since people keep talking about using consecration in the dps cycle, i thought i'd do some testing on this ability to see exactly how it works to perhaps include it in the model. From the testing i conducted the mechanics seem fubar. Can someone please confirm this:-

1) When it comes to normal spell damage from gear, the min rank does not get the same 0.95 coefficient as the max rank. There is scaleing involved. However the extra damage caused is modified by things such as sanctity aura, crusade etc.

2) When it comes to spell damage from JotC there is no scaleing, and the 219 is multiplied by 0.95 coefficient even at min rank. However, the extra damage this generates is not modified by things such as sanctity aura, crusade etc.

You can see the modifiers effecting different types of spell damage by:-
A) Put on SpDam gear, dont judge mob, pop consecration then pop AW and see the ticks go up by 30%
B) dont wear SpDam gear but judge the mob, pop consecration then pop AW and you will see the ticks dont go up by 30%

When I tried this out with SoR, the increased damage from JotC was being effected by multipliers, but not consecration. So this leaves me with 2 questions.

1) Why does Jotc +spdamage not scale like spdam on gear when it comes to downranking
2) Why does The extra consecration damage from +dmg get damage modifiers applied to it, but not extra damage from jotc

This just seemed really weird to me, however i ran the tests multiple times and came to these same conclusions. Can anyone verify these conclusions? Cheers

Last edited by bellator : 10/20/07 at 9:30 AM.
#173SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Teer
I don't know if it's a bug (probably is), but on the PTR the General's Scaled Greaves have got +12 agility on top of the previous stats (nothing reduced).
I checked the Veteran's and they remained unchanged.

Edit: wow that was a really stupid thing to say, forgot about the enchant

Last edited by Teer : 10/20/07 at 11:55 AM.
#174SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
I don't know if it's a bug (probably is), but on the PTR the General's Scaled Greaves have got +12 agility on top of the previous stats (nothing reduced).
I checked the Veteran's and they remained unchanged.

Its the enchant that is now shown white.
#175SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Argavaine
@Cromfel


SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn

This numbers were posted by you at the beginning. I did some testings myself and I was oom after 1 m 48 - 1 m 53 sec with 6843 mana

5 Tests
dps 918-983
melee 40-44 %
SoC 16-21 %
CS 26-30 %
JoC 10-12 %

1 m 51 sec theor. 18 CS and 13 JoC - I managed 17 CS and 11 JoC - that means 4012 + 3982-( 119x11)=6683 mana spent -> 60,2 mana/sec

There is a difference between % dmg of CS and SoC, this can result from my faster weapon pvp S2 Sword.
The biggest issue is mana, your fight lasted 3 min vs my fight 1m 51 sec. I have 60,2 mana/sec and you 45 mana/sec



Edit: I use PVP S2/3 Gear with BT haste Ring and SSC Neck and PVP S2 Sword->no mp5

Last edited by Argavaine : 10/20/07 at 12:57 PM.
#176SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ishmael
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 148 Mp5
A comment on this.

Many Marksmanship and Survival hunters don't do a straight Autoshot and Special shot rotation, which is what among hunters is refered to a 1:1 rotation. It's quite common to do a rotation where you do a special shot after every second Steady Shot., which is called a 1:1.5.

Example: Autoshot, Steady shot, Special Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot

Assuming 0 latency, you can do this without losing time to autoshot clipping.

This means that instead of hitting with 4 shots every 5 seconds, you will hit 5 shots during the same time which should increase the gains of JoW.
#177SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Argavaine View Post
@Cromfel


SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn

This numbers were posted by you at the beginning. I did some testings myself and I was oom after 1 m 48 - 1 m 53 sec with 6843 mana

5 Tests
dps 918-983
melee 40-44 %
SoC 16-21 %
CS 26-30 %
JoC 10-12 %

1 m 51 sec theor. 18 CS and 13 JoC - I managed 17 CS and 11 JoC - that means 4012 + 3982-( 119x11)=6683 mana spent -> 60,2 mana/sec

There is a difference between % dmg of CS and SoC, this can result from my faster weapon pvp S2 Sword.
The biggest issue is mana, your fight lasted 3 min vs my fight 1m 51 sec. I have 60,2 mana/sec and you 45 mana/sec



Edit: I use PVP S2/3 Gear with BT haste Ring and SSC Neck and PVP S2 Sword->no mp5
I will go tonight and perform serie of tests, lets say 10 tests and see how it goes.
#178SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
A comment on this.

Many Marksmanship and Survival hunters don't do a straight Autoshot and Special shot rotation, which is what among hunters is refered to a 1:1 rotation. It's quite common to do a rotation where you do a special shot after every second Steady Shot., which is called a 1:1.5.

Example: Autoshot, Steady shot, Special Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot

Assuming 0 latency, you can do this without losing time to autoshot clipping.

This means that instead of hitting with 4 shots every 5 seconds, you will hit 5 shots during the same time which should increase the gains of JoW.
Thanks, and I went ahead and updated the numbers.
#179SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel


Here is todays test. This one didnt contain any manaregen from JoW, BoW or mana potions. I will do similiar test for JoW+BoW also later.

Last edited by Cromfel : 10/20/07 at 6:54 PM.
#180SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Siral
Anyone tried seal of blood in place of SoC?

It gives more mana in PVE since we are costantly take damage so healer must put on us some HOT giving us more mana to use our spells
#181SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post


Here is todays test. This one didnt contain any manaregen from JoW, BoW or mana potions. I will do similiar test for JoW+BoW also later.
Is that duration in... seconds?
#182SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Is that duration in... seconds?
Yes
#183SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Yes
Oh, nevermind. I see where I was confused. I wasn't expecting commas.

That about matches up to my numbers, time-wise, and I am wearing a few hunter pieces on the PTR because I haven't been building my set. I'm guessing I need to hammer our Holy Paladins upside the head until they place Wisdom on bosses from now on.
#184SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.

But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!
#185SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.

But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!
The spreadheet does not current incorporate ring enchants (the main reason being the spreadsheet was intended for personal use only and i'm not an enchaner). It's Something i'll try to get in a later version. In the mean time, the best way to test these out is to edit the "base stats" section accordingly.

As for +weapon damage, this is not included in the model. I'm thinking of doing so, so that i can include sharpening stones etc, but unfortunatelt time is limited for me over the next couple of weeks.
#186SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Manually change the stats of the weapon to take the +4 weapon damage into account?
#187SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
UPDATE: Boomkin, protadins and retnoobs.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. All talents/abilities are patch 2.3 versions.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Lightning Overload assumed perfect 20% proc rate

Enhancement (Duel Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Enhancement (2 Handed)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 102.78 Mp5

Windfury Weapon assumed perfect 20% proc rate on both weapons
Shocks assumed to have nontalented 6 second cooldown


Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Druid
Moonkin
Typical Rotation: Insect Swarm, Moonfire, Starfire x3, Wrath, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 123.33 Mp5

Paladin
Protection
Typical Rotation: Judgement, Consecrate, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Typical Rotation: Crusader Strike, Judgement, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 97.37 Mp5

Judgement assumed talented 8 second cooldown

Note that I really have no idea what the spell rotation is for actual Boomkin druids, I just looked up what I would think would be a decent rotation. If anyone can find some real information regarding their spells it would be most appreciated. All I have left to do is Warlocks now (which I am not looking forward to doing).
#188SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
galzohar
I think for many fights it's not a discussion about JoW being good or not, it's about how useful is helping keeping it up rather than having a holy pally stop healing every <20s to do it not to mention stay in melee range.

The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).

With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Last edited by galzohar : 10/21/07 at 8:12 PM.
#189SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
DarKNecross
Based on the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet, I think I found an accurate way for us to calculate the value of Mongoose.
Agility_Equivalency = 120*Proc_Uptime
Proc_Uptime=(1-(1-(Attack_Speed/60))^(15*(Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec+Insant_Hits_Per_Sec)))
    Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec=1/Attack_Speed*(1-Miss_Chance-Dodge_Chance)
      Dodge_Chance=5.6-(Expertise*0.25)/100
    Instant_Hits_Per_Sec=((6.8+10)/60)*1.2 (6.8 is SoC, 10 is CS, 1.2 is Windfury)
Can SoB proc Mongoose is the real question, though.

Last edited by DarKNecross : 10/21/07 at 8:57 PM.
#190SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Enhancement (Dual Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5
Did you factor in Flurry? (Weapon attack speed becomes 2.0).
#191SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).
As a holy pally I can say that keeping any judgement up on a boss is a pain in the ass (for lack of a better term). As a holy pally your job is to heal, and most of the time we're more worried about keeping people alive than keeping a judgement up (which leads to shouts of "why isn't wisdom up?!?!?!" from the casters). Being a holy pally refreshing judgements isn't impossible, but it cuts into your healing a lot, and on most fights in the game the sacrifice isn't worth it. You spend a huge amount of time running in, trying to hit a boss (since you have no melee hit rating its a pain), and finally running out.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The 'death' of ret utility because SC is being moved to be in range of the other specs is unfounded. Yes, there will be some raidbitch holydins who pick it up. But in all honesty most holy pallys go for Imp. Conc Aura (because it really is that good, even in PvE) over anything in the ret tree. Protection pallys are in a much better position to grab it, but their tree is so bloated to begin with there isn't much they can move to put 3 into it. So it still remains a mainly ret talent, just a little higher in the tree.

Originally Posted by panny View Post
Did you factor in Flurry? (Weapon attack speed becomes 2.0).
No, I didn't use any haste effects whatsoever to make the math simpler and for it to apply to more situations. Since flurry is a proc on crit it can have a much different uptime based on each person's crit percentage/luck, and it was just easier to assume it doesn't exist.
#192SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Ysabelle
Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests from ZA? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.

Last edited by Ysabelle : 10/21/07 at 9:11 PM.
#193SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Ysabelle View Post
Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.
Every test that I have done in remotely competitive raids indicate that we are doing pretty well. Its very hard for Retribution Paladin to find well geared raid without predjudice, as majority of these unfortunately plain ignore us. But best shots I have was some german group who had BT/Hyjal level fury warrior, 2 T5 level rogues and BT/Hyjal level tanks I was competing just fine in DPS with everyone else.

Its just real pain in the ass to find good group where you can go all out.
#194SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...

Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.

From what I've been reading on these forums more often than not they do their best to keep JoW up so it *is* usually the case of letting the pally spend more time healing rather than being the deciding factor if JoW is going to be up there. And for those fights the actual effectiveness of JoW is irrelevent for how good the ret pally is. Then again when you have 3 judgements worth keeping up having a ret pally keep them up with crusader strike saves the time for 3 healers from keeping judgements up, which can be estimated in terms of benefit to healing. However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.
#195SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Aramul
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...
It also decreases Silence/Interrupt duration, allowing the Paladin and his group members to come out of AE silences to get important heals on the tank earlier.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.
Concentration Aura is additive, not multiplicative. The untalented aura plus Spiritual Focus is enough to avoid all spell knockbacks.
#196SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 _Retribute_
Argh regearing is really sucking, I am trying to get at least full blues before 2.3 hits. Almost all the ret gear is from instances and noone will really take a ret paladin to any instance. I picked up Hammer of Naaru, my t4 helm, and some other random gear from before when I was healing. I am trying to get as much gear from quartermasters as possible. My guild muted me for respecing to ret.
#197SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
I'll answer your post for now, but this thread is about retribution theorycrafting in raids, not the merits of Improved Concentration Aura and Judgement. If you would like to discuss this further please take it to PM's, I'll be happy to argue to your heart's content.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...
Because Auras effect your entire party. There are a lot of classes out there who don't get nice talented pushback resistance (Shadow Priests especially come to mind) and that 50% is huge with the amount of AoE damage in the current game. Not to mention the 30% duration reduction of all silence effects on anyone under the effect of Concentration Aura. This is 30% less time you have to spend silenced, and there are a lot of bosses out there where those 2 seconds can make the difference between a kill and a dead tank.

Its also nice for those of us who like to PvP in our off time, since it is the aura of choice there.

Oh and you almost never use Devo in a raid unless you're the Main Tank pally. The extra 900 armor won't save a clothie from anything.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.
Wrong.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.
DPS lost? I think we already proved a long long time ago that a ret pally brings more to a raid than a third warlock or rogue (if anyone could find the numbers back in the old thread that would actually be a nice addition to the main post). Regardless, a holy pally can put and keep up any judgement he feels like. However, its not economical or even safe under a lot of circumstances to have a healer out jumping around reapplying a judgement every 18 seconds when you could have someone reapplying it for him every 6 while retaining a competitive level of continuous DPS.

I'm not saying "you have to have a ret pally to get Judgement of Wisdom". You can get this from any pally. But chances are if you have a ret pally in your guild you will see these numbers a lot more often than if you just run with holydins.
#198SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Great news for those who had problems with Excel 2003 (or me at least ). Go to Options->Transition and check Transition Formula Entry. Somehow all the formulas start working
#199SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ridan
Originally Posted by Ysabelle View Post
Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests from ZA? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.
I ran ZA Sunday with a well geared Retrib paladin (S2 glad set, Storm Herald and a lot of plate items from Hyjal/BT). The raid setup wasn't optimal (only 1 paladin which means no blessing of might or king).
We had a good melee group (Def warrior, fury warrio, feral druid, Retribution paladin, and me as an enhancement shaman droping wf all the time).

On most single target encounter, the retribution paladin and me had a very similar dps.
I was going all out (full Shock and stormstrike rotation, trinket whenever up).
The paladin told me he was still holding back, with the lag the tanks couldn't generate as much threat as they Should.
Moreover, the paladin was using jugement of wisdom, being the only paladin in the raid he needed it to be able to keep his mana up.

I think that with a more optimal setup and beter threat from the tank He should be able to outdps me (save for mana problems).
#200SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Mark of Vindication

Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?
#201SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
So still the devo pally of the MT won't lose anything speccing out of imp conc aura for the 3% raid crit. And you generally run with a pally in the MT group, don't you? In such case the effectiveness of concentration aura isn't even relevant.

The bottom line is that in the fights where the holy (and prot...) pallies can keep the judgements up, the only DPS the ret pally brings to the raid above his own is the 2% aura to his party... I had yet to see the theorycraft that shows that 2% extra damage to party makes up for the lack of ret pally DPS. Still waiting to see a high-quality spreadsheet (of a level such as leulier's warlock sheet) to know for sure. Anyway the point is that in those fights the benefit of having the ret pally is having 2-3 healers spending more time healing and less time in melee range.

Granted there are fights where not having a ret pally simply means no judgements, and in those fights you can completely ignore my comments, but those fights are far from being all fights and afaik not even close to being the majority.
#202SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?
Huh, never noticed this before: Mana Restore 2 - Spells - World of Warcraft


15% proc rate on 150~ mana, or roughly 23~ mana per spell cast. I know it works off of Judgement and Consecrate, but I don't think it triggers from CS or SoC (typical abilities used by a Ret paladin)


I don't think it will give you much mana for typical Ret ability use. Good trinket for leveling or at L70 if you don't have anything better, but quite replaceable.
#203SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Ret paladins, have any of you considered the use of [Mark of Vindication] (Mark of Vindication - Items - World of Warcraft) for long fights to support your DPS cycle? I realize it would be a downgrade from many active use and epic trinkets available (DST, Bloodlust Brooch, etc) in terms of raw damage gain, but would the mana return on Judgement (and Consecration if you use it in your cycle) combined with Sanctified Judgement practically completely refunding your Seal cost be enough to justify its use?
I find it pretty hard to fit Consecrate into my rotation as it is, just by virtue of global cooldowns and not wanting to skip a CS or queuing up SoC before my weapon swing is due. So that would probably lower its effectiveness right there. Unless it's each consecrate tick (which I doubt) it might not be worth it.

Still, interesting find, and definitely a good trinket choice for a Paladin in place like Kara, I think, where there's lots of chances to use Exorcism for extra damage, to balance out the mana cost.
#204SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
The pally/shaman Mark of Vindication has an internal cooldown, making it much less awesome than it initially appears to be.

I thought the same for a long while and then actually noticed how little power gain it yeilded in a WWS.
#205SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.
I'm assuming your impression here is because you're either at the start of or not yet in t5 content though. Paladin healing is really... lame at best in t6, most of the time, and it starts to really hurt a bit later at the end of t5.

Switching to a holy/ret/prot dynamic for your three blessings lets you free up healer slots for the more effective PvE healing Druids, Shamans, and Priests.

There's still situations where an Imp. LoH in the raid is useful on the tank (prefiring for Reliquary p3 comes to mind), but most of the time nowadays the only things a holy paladin brings that another healer wouldn't is his LoH and possibly a Devo aura for the tank, but he likely needs a shadowpriest anyway to keep up with the real healers on a tank if he isn't meter farming the raid damage that lifebloom and chain heal should be healing.
#206SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
The pally/shaman Mark of Vindication has an internal cooldown, making it much less awesome than it initially appears to be.

I thought the same for a long while and then actually noticed how little power gain it yeilded in a WWS.
I don't see anything about the internal cooldown. Can you tell me what the timer on it is? Because, really, if anywhere close to an interval or 8 or 10, it shouldn't affect the numbers that greatly.
#207SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3jusion
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
I'm assuming your impression here is because you're either at the start of or not yet in t5 content though. Paladin healing is really... lame at best in t6, most of the time, and it starts to really hurt a bit later at the end of t5.

Switching to a holy/ret/prot dynamic for your three blessings lets you free up healer slots for the more effective PvE healing Druids, Shamans, and Priests.

There's still situations where an Imp. LoH in the raid is useful on the tank (prefiring for Reliquary p3 comes to mind), but most of the time nowadays the only things a holy paladin brings that another healer wouldn't is his LoH and possibly a Devo aura for the tank, but he likely needs a shadowpriest anyway to keep up with the real healers on a tank if he isn't meter farming the raid damage that lifebloom and chain heal should be healing.
And this will especially be true in 2.3. I'm still not totally sold on whether a retadin will be worth bring to raids yet, until I see some decent numbers on PTR on test. I'm just a skeptic of everything until I see hard proof. :p
#208SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Agonar
Didnt got the time to test stuff on the PTR yet but im wondering about something.

Does Vindication(the one from the 2.3 build) affect non-players mobs(non-boss)? I know about the story of raw stats, etc... but i need a confirmation on that. If i remember correctly when i was able to log-in 5-10min on the PTR last week, i attacked a mobs with a mana pool and i noticed the mana pool cap was lowered by the Vindication debuff. Didnt had enough time to test if the hp pool cap got lowered too.

Also, IF it work on non-players mobs, are the trash in ZA all immune to this debuff?

Another question totally out of subject is: Do you know the existence of an addons that will keep track of the jugement debuff on my target? Even if the jugement are not from me? Something to filter out and tell me if JoW/JoL/JoTC are still up etc... I know some paladin in my guild interested to find an addon like this.

Thanks in advance.
#209SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fogel
I believe if you search for filter debuffon on curse you'll get what you're looking for. Works like a charm for keeping track of jol/jow/jotc.
#210SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
Didnt got the time to test stuff on the PTR yet but im wondering about something.

Does Vindication(the one from the 2.3 build) affect non-players mobs(non-boss)? I know about the story of raw stats, etc... but i need a confirmation on that. If i remember correctly when i was able to log-in 5-10min on the PTR last week, i attacked a mobs with a mana pool and i noticed the mana pool cap was lowered by the Vindication debuff. Didnt had enough time to test if the hp pool cap got lowered too.
Copied from my post in the paladin tanking thread:
Originally Posted by Fiola
Observation of Vindication on PTR:

Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.

That's a difference of 315 mana points, or around 10~%.


Not knowing mob health values, I couldn't really test how much it reduced their HP, but I was able to test if it had any effect.

I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP, obviously.


In other words, Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks.

Originally Posted by Agonar
Also, IF it work on non-players mobs, are the trash in ZA all immune to this debuff?
From my very, very brief time in ZA, I noticed it proc on some of the humanoid mobs. I noticed because it was showing "IMMUNE" on other mobs (the trolls on bear mounts).
#211SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Zurm
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already (I did some searches and found nothing) comparing the [Vengeful Gladiator's Bonegrinder]/[Vengeful Gladiator's Decapitator]/[Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword] to the [Torch of the Damned] or [Cataclysm's Edge].

Anyone ran the numbers yet? It seems like the S3 weapons would at least come close, with the extra crit, hit, and armor penetration.
#212SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
myth123
disregard

Last edited by myth123 : 10/23/07 at 4:04 AM.
#213SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
The torch of the damned is still the best of the bunch because crusader strike is unnormalized.
Crusader Strike is normalized. Go buy a weapon from the starting areas (for the really low damage range) to test it.
#214SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
The torch of the damned is still the best of the bunch because crusader strike is unnormalized.
It's actually the best since it's base weapon speed is 3.8, which means it gets the most from Attack Power.

When I was looking at weapons, I noticed Soul Clever actually was about the same as Cataclysm's Edge in terms of DPS. When you factor the new 1% crit racial, however, Cataclysm wins.
#215SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Didn't someone say SoC works on a PPM basis which means it has a higher % proc chance per hit with a slower weapon, resulting in a bigger DPS increase on slower weapons?
Of course if it's wrong and SoC is on a fixed % and not PPM, and if CS is also normalized, then weapon speed means nothing except a small difference in judgement of wisdom procs. In this case only average weapon damage and DPS matter.
If SoC is PPM and/or CS is not normalized then slower weapon speed has its own value on top of the value of average damage and DPS, as it would increase SoC proc rate and/or the AP bonus CS gets.
#216SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Crusader Strike is normalized. Go buy a weapon from the starting areas (for the really low damage range) to test it.
Hm... I could have sworn they werent' normalized at some point. If they are normalized now, can you tell me for what speed? I'm gonna need to adjust my models.
#217SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Didn't someone say SoC works on a PPM basis which means it has a higher % proc chance per hit with a slower weapon, resulting in a bigger DPS increase on slower weapons?
Of course if it's wrong and SoC is on a fixed % and not PPM, and if CS is also normalized, then weapon speed means nothing except a small difference in judgement of wisdom procs. In this case only average weapon damage and DPS matter.
If SoC is PPM and/or CS is not normalized then slower weapon speed has its own value on top of the value of average damage and DPS, as it would increase SoC proc rate and/or the AP bonus CS gets.
Seal of Command is PPM, and has a higher chance to proc with slower weapons.
Seal of Command Proc Chance Each Swing:
Weapon speed * 6.8 / 60

Crusader Strike is Normalized to 3.3.

Weapon speed still matters, because it still determines the benefit we get from AP on our Attacks (White and SoC namely). When AP is getting up into the 4k Raid Buffed range, a 3.8 speed weapon will do a lot more than a 3.5 speed one.
#218SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
It's actually the best since it's base weapon speed is 3.8, which means it gets the most from Attack Power.

When I was looking at weapons, I noticed Soul Clever actually was about the same as Cataclysm's Edge in terms of DPS. When you factor the new 1% crit racial, however, Cataclysm wins.
Sorry, should have said I am assuming SoB.
#219SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
Hm... I could have sworn they werent' normalized at some point. If they are normalized now, can you tell me for what speed? I'm gonna need to adjust my models.
If CS was ever un-normalized, it was before 2.0 went live, because that's when I tested it.

My testing showed 3.3 for 2H weapons and 2.4 for 1H weapons , just like warrior/rogues.



Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
...

Weapon speed still matters, because it still determines the benefit we get from AP on our Attacks (White and SoC namely). When AP is getting up into the 4k Raid Buffed range, a 3.8 speed weapon will do a lot more than a 3.5 speed one.
It shouldn't matter for white damage, unless you're talking about Windfury.


Otherwise, spot on.
#220SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
It shouldn't matter for white damage, unless you're talking about Windfury.


Otherwise, spot on.
How does it matter for windfury if I don't have enough haste to trigger the internal cooldown (which I believe to be 3 seconds)
#221SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
How does it matter for windfury if I don't have enough haste to trigger the internal cooldown (which I believe to be 3 seconds)
Weapon speed does not affect white damage's benefit from AP. Whatever your weapon speed is, AP gives the same DPS bonus to white damage.

Abilities that grant free attacks (Windfury, SoC) get greater benefits (per hit) from slower weapon speeds. Though now that I think about it, Windfury is a fixed 20% procrate, so it doesn't even matter what weapon speed you have.


Also, the Windfury internal cooldown applies to the weapon enchant only, AFAIK. (Shaman-only issue)
#222SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.

With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
#223SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.

With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
If my CS produces less/equal damage than my autoattack (With 200ish spell damage) its pretty safe to say its normalized.
#224SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.

With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
I changed G47 in DPS_Calc to:

[top](Character!W70*Character!V70+0.4*Character!L7+IF(K20


"Yes",18,0)+(Character!F4+Character!F5)/14*3.3)

G48 to

[top](C47+Character!F6/14*3.3)*(G17-P9)*G6*G7*G8*G9*P22*IF(K21


"Yes",105%,100%)

If this is correct, then Cataclysm comes barely out on top again.
#225SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
From my very, very brief time in ZA, I noticed it proc on some of the humanoid mobs. I noticed because it was showing "IMMUNE" on other mobs (the trolls on bear mounts).
Vindication procs on any mob that is CCable. I ZA I would see it go onto the mobs that I could stun, but get immune messages for those that are immune to stun (bears and lookouts).

In all honesty I wasn't paying enough attention to notice any differences in mob health other than what my pretty criticals were doing, so I can't really help on the issue of whether Vindication is the new ret raid utility or not. It still seems like a mainly PvP talent to me though.
#226SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 _Retribute_
Another thing that is sort of related to Ret right now is public awareness that Ret is actually fairly good dps. Im sure its going to be hard to find a good guild that will be aware of the benefits of ret paladins. How are you current paladins getting spots in raids?, and how many ret paladins are they bringing? I don't want to spend all this time gearing to find out that noone will take me.
#227SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Strifen
I would imagine it's going to be big problems for many ret paladins to find good guilds to join up with. Long after 2.3 gets pushed live the stigma of lolret will still be there in many people. However after 2.3 gets pushed live with these changes, WWS reports will soon be put out showing what ret paladins can really do in a stacked meele group with threat reduction. Hopefully many raid leaders will realize the worth of a ret paladin. I'm a holy paladin right now and I plan to spec and raid ret as soon as 2.3 gets pushed live. I just cant see a reason for not bringing one, provided they're in a proper support group they should do very competitive dps. The biggest thing as a ret paladin looking to get into a solid raiding guild is that you're going to have to be a damn good player to prove your worth. I know that this is the same case with all classes, but we're working from the ground up here, if you're going to botch encounters or not come prepared I'm sure it's going to be rough. I say keep doing what you're doing, gearing yourself up, just remember you're going to have to go that extra mile to prove your worth.

For how many ret paladins people are bringing/going to bring. The answer is simple, one. There's no reason at all for more ret paladins, unless maybe you don't have any holy/prot paladins to provide additional blessings.

To touch on the discussion on the previous pages, on certain fights keeping up judgments is just not an easy thing to do as a holy paladin. For certain fights like bloodboil or achimonde keeping judgments up reliably is just not possible without sacrificing multiple GCD's or time running in and out of range.

Another thing is that when 2.3 goes live and shamans/druids/priests healers all get substantially buffed along with the down ranking nerf to holy paladins we really are going to be the least desirable healer to bring but of course you still need blessings, so bringing a ret to cover one of those blessings is allowing room for more tree druid/shaman/priest healers.
#228SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Is CS definately normalised at 3.3 as it currently is not in my model.

With regard weapon speed, slower weapons will still produce slightly higher CS dps, as even if the AP is normalised to 3.3 the original base weapon damage of the slower weapon will still be larger resulting in larger CS hits.
I tested CS on the 2.3 PTR and it is normalized to 3.3 for 2H and 2.4 for 1H weapons.
#229SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
disregard
#230SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by _Retribute_ View Post
Another thing that is sort of related to Ret right now is public awareness that Ret is actually fairly good dps. Im sure its going to be hard to find a good guild that will be aware of the benefits of ret paladins. How are you current paladins getting spots in raids?, and how many ret paladins are they bringing? I don't want to spend all this time gearing to find out that noone will take me.
I am not trying to be cynical, but it is a lot more likely that guilds are going to allow long time players who have proven their loyalty to try out the fun new offspecs before recruiting new retribution paladins, so this change is more likely to impact a lot of holy paladins who are currently in guild but want to have a chance at a different role or a burnt out on healing.
#231SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Something I noticed about Bellator's spreadsheet - there's no Meta Gem requirement checks (IE, full socketing with 10str gems allows 12agi 3% crit to be active).
#232SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Unless I'm not reading the spreadsheet formula correctly, JotC is not currently being added to crusader strike. In game the total JotC damage is added to your spelldamage, reduced to 40% then added to weapon damage.
(normalized weapon damage + 0.4*( spell damage + JotC ))
#233SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Something I noticed about Bellator's spreadsheet - there's no Meta Gem requirement checks (IE, full socketing with 10str gems allows 12agi 3% crit to be active).
That is correct. Codeing meta gems checks is a pain.

Originally Posted by grover View Post
Unless I'm not reading the spreadsheet formula correctly, JotC is not currently being added to crusader strike. In game the total JotC damage is added to your spelldamage, reduced to 40% then added to weapon damage.
(normalized weapon damage + 0.4*( spell damage + JotC ))
The spreadsheet is not including JotC damage in CS. Can anyone confirm that it is counted as part of the spell damage? Reason i ask is when i first tested CS (a long while back) CS did not benefit from JotC. If anyone can confirm the change, i'll fix


Also, does anyone have any confirmation on my consecration mechanics i noticed. Them being:-
A) The extra damage from Jotc does not scale (ie is not reduced) like spdam on gear when it comes to downranking consecration (can be tested by noticing the increase in tick is the same for min and max rank consecration with 0 SpD and JotC on target)
B) The extra consecration damage caused from +dmg on gear gets modifiers applied to it but not the extra damage from jotc (can be tested by judging targets, casting consecration and then using AW....tick does not go up 30%)
#234SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
The effect of slow weapons on CS damage isn't direct. The higher CS damage is because of the higher weapon damage, not because of the slow speed. A 100-200 weapon would always do more CS damage than a 80-180 weapon, no matter what their speed is. Of course 2 weapons with the same DPS will have a better weapon speed if they're slower, but the reason for the extra CS damage is the extra weapon damage and not the speed.

For SoC you get a direct benefit from having a slow weapon - the proc is based on weapon damage/ap, so if the proc was a fixed % (like WF), it wouldn't matter what speed you have. Since slower means higher proc % it means slower weapons automatically proc more.

In reality DPS speed and damage are related since given 2 of them you could calculate the 3rd. However when calculating DPS done with a weapon and how much DPS you'd gain from each attribute changing I find it easier to treat each stat for itself - check how much damage you lose by speeding up the weapon, how much damage you gain by increasing DPS and how much damage you gain by increasing the average weapon damage. Then when you change a weapon, sum up the DPS differences and see if it's really better or not. At least I think that would be the easiest way to calculate and compare weapons in a definite way.

As a general guidline, though, since SoC is PPM based obviously with equal level weapons the slower weapon wins.
#235SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by _Retribute_ View Post
Another thing that is sort of related to Ret right now is public awareness that Ret is actually fairly good dps. Im sure its going to be hard to find a good guild that will be aware of the benefits of ret paladins. How are you current paladins getting spots in raids?, and how many ret paladins are they bringing? I don't want to spend all this time gearing to find out that noone will take me.
I'm getting a chance because I was a very strong Ret player pre-BC, through all raids up to a few bosses into BWL, and because my guild has come to the point where I'm not the "token Prot Paladin" anymore. It used to be so bad, that half the night I was the only Paladin in a raid. That was pretty much unacceptable, but nowadays I have more freedom to experiment.

The caveat being that I have to spend all my time farming Heroics for and bid DKP to roll on DPS items until patch time, so that I'm not two raid zones of gear behind everyone else. I'm out to be competitive, not just viable. I plan to report on my findings once I've run a few raids.
#236SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The spreadsheet is not including JotC damage in CS. Can anyone confirm that it is counted as part of the spell damage? Reason i ask is when i first tested CS (a long while back) CS did not benefit from JotC. If anyone can confirm the change, i'll fix
My tests from a long while back show that CS does benefit from JotC... (Using low damage range weapon on various EPL mobs, if I remember right)



Also, does anyone have any confirmation on my consecration mechanics i noticed. Them being:-
A) The extra damage from Jotc does not scale (ie is not reduced) like spdam on gear when it comes to downranking consecration (can be tested by noticing the increase in tick is the same for min and max rank consecration with 0 SpD and JotC on target)
B) The extra consecration damage caused from +dmg on gear gets modifiers applied to it but not the extra damage from jotc (can be tested by judging targets, casting consecration and then using AW....tick does not go up 30%)
A. JotC affects R1 Consecrate and JoC R1, and I think it has no downranking penalty.


I'm not sure about B.

That brings up a different question - what are the coefficients for the various abilities that we can downrank? I've tested Consecrate and JoC, but I've never looked at

HoW
Exorcism
Holy Wrath


With the reduced mana costs in 2.3, certain ranks might be mana efficient enough to incorporate into a DPS cycle vs. demon/undead/wounded targets.
#237SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
Another question totally out of subject is: Do you know the existence of an addons that will keep track of the jugement debuff on my target? Even if the jugement are not from me? Something to filter out and tell me if JoW/JoL/JoTC are still up etc... I know some paladin in my guild interested to find an addon like this.

Thanks in advance.
You can get DeMon, the recently released next-generation version of pDebuffFilter. It lets you manually add debuffs to track.

Mine watches for the presence of all four "debuff" judgements and Scorpid Sting, in addition to all the normal stuff.
#238SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Artaxz
Do we have any accepted set value for each stat point? I am particularly trying to assign weight to -ac and haste. I am not very good with Excel or I would just pull the formulas out of the spreadsheet Bellator has kindly made.

I don't want to grab a ton of armor penetration warrior gear if it doesn't benefit me very much. But in using Bellator's spreadsheet, a few items really jump out as clear upgrades. For instance, I will probably craft some BT bracers...Bellator has the mail bracers outpreforming the plate bracers by 3dps.

And in terms of the weapon, I thought the ret community had the torch far and away the best weapon (by 15dps or so). Yet I am now reading the sword actually outperforms the mace?

I can appreciate some uncertainty; I just want to know if the model is off before I spend dkp on all these items.
#239SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
You can get DeMon, the recently released next-generation version of pDebuffFilter. It lets you manually add debuffs to track.

Mine watches for the presence of all four "debuff" judgements and Scorpid Sting, in addition to all the normal stuff.
Where did you find the addon? I can't seem to locate it anywhere. Something like this would actually merit a close inspection if it works well.

If not you can always do what I so and just use NECB to monitor your judgement. Once you CS they'll all be on the same timer anyway.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it on the Ace site.

EDIT 2: WowAce Downloads Download it from there.
#240SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Thordurin
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
You can get DeMon, the recently released next-generation version of pDebuffFilter. It lets you manually add debuffs to track.

Mine watches for the presence of all four "debuff" judgements and Scorpid Sting, in addition to all the normal stuff.
Do you have a link to this addon? I can't seem to find it on any of the addon sites.

Thanks!
#241SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
bellator
Originally Posted by Artaxz View Post
Do we have any accepted set value for each stat point? I am particularly trying to assign weight to -ac and haste. I am not very good with Excel or I would just pull the formulas out of the spreadsheet Bellator has kindly made.

I don't want to grab a ton of armor penetration warrior gear if it doesn't benefit me very much. But in using Bellator's spreadsheet, a few items really jump out as clear upgrades. For instance, I will probably craft some BT bracers...Bellator has the mail bracers outpreforming the plate bracers by 3dps.

And in terms of the weapon, I thought the ret community had the torch far and away the best weapon (by 15dps or so). Yet I am now reading the sword actually outperforms the mace?

I can appreciate some uncertainty; I just want to know if the model is off before I spend dkp on all these items.
Rough numbers for SoB are:-

1 Str = 2.2 AP = 1.1 Agility = 1.1 Crit = 1.0 Haste = 8 Armour Pen = 3 +Dmg

Hit rating not included in this, but is greater than all if not hit capped.

And yes, the mail bracers are outperforming the plate ones.

In terms of weapons, for SoC torch of the damned is definately the best. The model suggests the sword is marginally better for SoB, however i'm an alliance paladin, so not 100% sure on all the SoB calculations, but i think they are fairly accurate

In general the model is pretty accurate. I know of a couple of minor errors which need correcting, but shouldnt change the outcome of anything. Feel free to ask about any particular items you were looking at,

Last edited by bellator : 10/23/07 at 8:33 PM.
#242SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Retribution Weaponsmith weapon mastery

Okay, so as you can see from the title, I'm a weaponsmith. Only 275 at the moment, but that's beside the point. What I'm trying to ask is this. Is it better for a retribution paladin, who is planning to be used mainly for PvE, to choose Swordsmith, Hammersmith, or Axesmith. The biggest reason I need to know, is for the 2-handed weapon that I could use from each mastery. Obviously, I can only choose one, and I would like to know which one would benefit me the best. Here are the stats of each of these 2-handed weapons:

Bloodmoon 2-handed Axe
375-564 damage Speed 3.70
(126.9 damage per second)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 56.
Equip: Increases attack power by 112.


Lionheart Executioner 2-handed Sword
365-549 damage Speed 3.60
(126.9 damage per second)
+52 Strength
+44 Agility
Equip: Increases your chance to resist Fear effects by 8%.
Chance on hit: Increases Strength by 100 for 10 seconds.


Stormherald 2-handed Mace
386-579 damage Speed 3.80
(127.0 damage per second)
+42 Strength
+42 Agility
+61 Stamina
Chance on hit: Stuns target for 4 seconds.
#243SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Originally Posted by _Retribute_ View Post
Another thing that is sort of related to Ret right now is public awareness that Ret is actually fairly good dps. Im sure its going to be hard to find a good guild that will be aware of the benefits of ret paladins. How are you current paladins getting spots in raids?, and how many ret paladins are they bringing? I don't want to spend all this time gearing to find out that noone will take me.
I managed to get my spot in the raiding scene because one of my friends holds a lot of influence with our guild and he managed to convince all the officers of the guild that a retribution paladin would be very helpful to the entire raid, as well as capable dps. That's how my spot has been secured. But I agree with you. Ret pallies are now making their own way in the World, but it'll be a while yet before they are generally accepted as capable dps, able to match those classes that are actually designed for dps, no matter what spec (i.e. rogue, hunter, mage, etc.)
#244SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Ragnor
Mazrimtaim, the S3 arena sword & mace will easily surpass T3 versions of the crafted weapons.. Get into arena asap and start generating points for next season.. Then can skip leveling smithing, farming heroic's for primal nether's and waiting for 8? nether vortex' from 25 mans.

At 1500 5v5 rating it's about ~5 weeks to get 1850 for a 2h, ~4 weeks at 1600...and so on. It's going to be alot faster and cheaper than smithing for you..

Vengeful Gladiator's Bonegrinder - Items - World of Warcraft
Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword - Items - World of Warcraft

Last edited by Ragnor : 10/23/07 at 11:00 PM.
#245SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Mazrimtaim, S3 sword & mace have surpassed T3 versions of the crafted weapons.. if you are going to do arena and can wait I'd probably not bother leveling smithing, you can avoid having to farm nether's from heroics and waiting for nether vortex' from 25 mans.
Season 3 weapons also require a reasonable time investment as well as a personal rating of 1850. In all honesty I would still go for either the Skillherald of the LHE. The Axe is (IMO) a purely hunter weapon, so the choice between the other two is up to you. The sword is marginally better for PvE in raw stats, and its proc is very good, but the extra stamina on SH comes in useful as well.

Its also 5 vortexes and 8 nethers. Not hard to do at all if you're into tier 5 content.
#246SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Season 3 weapons also require a reasonable time investment as well as a personal rating of 1850. In all honesty I would still go for either the Skillherald of the LHE. The Axe is (IMO) a purely hunter weapon, so the choice between the other two is up to you. The sword is marginally better for PvE in raw stats, and its proc is very good, but the extra stamina on SH comes in useful as well.

Its also 5 vortexes and 8 nethers. Not hard to do at all if you're into tier 5 content.
He's lvl 66 according to armory atm
#247SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Season 3 weapons also require a reasonable time investment as well as a personal rating of 1850. In all honesty I would still go for either the Skillherald of the LHE. The Axe is (IMO) a purely hunter weapon, so the choice between the other two is up to you. The sword is marginally better for PvE in raw stats, and its proc is very good, but the extra stamina on SH comes in useful as well.

Its also 5 vortexes and 8 nethers. Not hard to do at all if you're into tier 5 content.
Thanks. That helps out a lot in making my decision.
#248SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
I'm having a hard time deciding if I want to invest points in Season 3 pieces when the patch hits, or just get Season 2 now. I qualify for most pieces except shoulders (2,000 personal rating -_-), and looking at the difference, I can't tell if - assuming all other gear is T5 level, which would benefit me more.

I tallied up the differences...going from S2 to S3:

Armor: +492
Strength: -29
Stamina: +7
Intellect: +6
Spell Damage: +1
Armor Penetration: 252
Hit Rating: +36
Crit Rating: -4
Resilience: +160

Also the bonus of SotC +20 versus 5% to Crusader Strike. It sounds really hot, but at the same time I can't really use the spreadsheet to weight the loss of crit and STR too well. :\
#249SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Also the bonus of SotC +20 versus 5% to Crusader Strike. It sounds really hot, but at the same time I can't really use the spreadsheet to weight the loss of crit and STR too well. :\
The S2 and S3 gloves have almost the exact same same stats (Season 3 having +1 STAM, +3 INT, -3 Spell Damage, +26 Resil compared to Season 2), but the new bonus effect alone makes up for it. Testing it on the PTR's I could see a noticeable increase in my DPS (not huge, but not small either). So even if you decide just to grab the Season 2 stuff, I would at least get the Vengeful gloves.
#250SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Prepared, the latest version of the spreadsheet has the S2 and S3 items listed, so you should be able to compare them. As flyingroastr said, the gloves are grear. Pluggin in tier 6 gear with tier 4 gloves, then running the upgrade analysis, the tier 3 gloves run out big winners. The spreadsheet doesnt have the tier 2 bonus, but there is no way it will make up for the tier 3 bonus
#251SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The spreadsheet is not including JotC damage in CS. Can anyone confirm that it is counted as part of the spell damage? Reason i ask is when i first tested CS (a long while back) CS did not benefit from JotC. If anyone can confirm the change, i'll fix
Some numbers from the 2.3 ptr:

792 AP 0 spell damage max rank JotC and using a [Shortsword]
Average CS = 171 against blasted lands mob with 24% damage reduction.

171/(1-0.24) = 1.2 * 2.6 + ( 792 / 14 ) * 2.4 + 219 * X
X = 0.39
Close enough to 40%.
#252SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3powerbello
Best option?

so i'm levelling a paladin, an alt so going for retry no brainer.
i started as bs, cuz i was looking for skillherald. then i turned for lionheart, i think that's better for pve raiding. now i'm dubious again. i am wandering if it's the case to go armorsmith for imba chest and take khorium champion or singing crystal axe.

so this is due to the fact that i won't have much chances to get vortexes as i won't be able to go retry in 25 men raids. so i would have to stop to t2 weapons for some time. then despair would be better i think, and that's quite obtainable.

also bulwark is much better than exile, and the latter is a bit rare. also only 2 vortexes are easier than 5^^. so i thought to go for bulwark+khorium champion rather than lionheart+(maybe)exile. so first question.

khorium champion or singing crystal axe?
the former has a realy imba proc, if it would be 1ppm it would rock.
singing crystal axe is 37% faster attacks for 10 sec so 1 more swing per proc.
125 str = 250 ap (18 dps) for 30 secs = 540 without procs
1 swing = 1k dmg (roughly) again withot proc.
procwise the latter is clearly better (but doesn't count 5 crusader strikes and dmg improvement from sob-soc, so i can say they are nearly good enough, khorium has 50 more str on its side, too. and it's crafted rather than random drop so more easily obtainable)

then bulwark+boe weapon or t2 weapon (lionheart i'd say)?

mongoose or savagery?

and last but not at all least. i'm collecting blessing cards while leveling up. it would be a stunning 120 ap and 80 spelldmg trinket. rocks hard imho for retradin. question is, does the spelldmg part of trinket take charges from consecration ticks or cast? anyway it fades in 10 secs so i can judge again before it fades, but if i could use consacrate rank1 in its place it would be a nice addition to my dmg (i would go for soc rather than sob in that case i think, as from what i know sob cannot crit (right?) and gets much more dmg from spelldmg)

thx for replies guys
#253SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
As my request to incorporate SoR to the DPS spreadsheet didn't receive any favorable echo, I'll try to discuss the scaling of a impSoR ret build compared to a SoC one per item point:

All the maths assume melee hit capped, dodge/parry is discussable, let's assume it affects both SoR and SoC the same way and is ignorable. Vengeance is ignored in all the maths as in its 2.3 state, it can be estimated constantly on 3 stacks even for a SoR build. Sanctity aura is up. Crusade, imp sanctity aura should affect both spec the same way.

Assuming divine strength, bok, enleashed rage, 1 strength = 2.662 AP = 1 item point
1 SD = 0.85 item point.

so, in cost, 1 item point = 2.662 AP = 1.176 SD, it gives us 1 SD = 2.26 AP.

let's estimate the value of a +100 SD upgrade for a impSoR build:
auto attack = 0 DPS
CS 0.4*100/6 = 6.66 DPS
SoR 0.11*100*1.15*1.1 = 13.91 DPS
JoR 0.73*100/8*1.15*1.1 = 11.54 DPS
Total with 2H spec = 33.34 DPS


let's see how good scales a SoC build with +226 AP:
auto attack 226/14 = 16.14 DPS
CS 226/14*3.3/6 = 8.88 DPS
SoC 6.8*(3.8*226/14*0.7)/60*1.1 = 5.35 DPS
JoC = 0 DPS
Total with 2H spec = 32.19 DPS

Please check my math, I hope this could motivate Bellator to add SoR in his spreadsheet
I would love to see the effect of melee crits, spell hits, glancing blows, partial resist, etc on a SoR build, but if you add concecration in the equation, I think an impSoR build can perfectly compete with a SoC build.
#254SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Prepared, the latest version of the spreadsheet has the S2 and S3 items listed, so you should be able to compare them. As flyingroastr said, the gloves are grear. Pluggin in tier 6 gear with tier 4 gloves, then running the upgrade analysis, the tier 3 gloves run out big winners. The spreadsheet doesnt have the tier 2 bonus, but there is no way it will make up for the tier 3 bonus
I can't compare them, because the spreadsheet doesn't work. OpenOffice, remember? :P
#255SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rheyah
I see no mention of SoR's hit rate in those calculations, which would be divided by 3.8 with that same weapon unless I'm reading wrong?

Yes, I'm getting 13.915 additional damage per hit divided by 3.8 is 3.6 DPS? Or am I wrong here.
#256SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
SoR spell damage contribution is 11% per second. That's why I don't have to factor in weapon speed to compute a DPS. And yeah, I used 3.8 weapon speed for SoC DPS evaluation.
#257SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lopaka
Question about weapons

I originally leveled up my paladin as Protection to AoE grind my way to 70, then went holy to heal in raids. With all of the changes coming for Retribution, I have been slowly putting together a Retribution set when the opportunities come up. It's not quite there yet, as I still have some holes to fill, but it's getting there. I have always thought having one Ret Pally in a raid would be a great asset, but it's an uphill battle trying to convince people that still have the lolRet mentality.

Anyways, back to the topic of weapons. I currently have the [Hammer of the Naaru], enchanted with Savagery and socketed with 3 [Bold Living Ruby]. I know it's not the best weapon out there for a Ret Pally, but do you think it's good enough to raid at the SSC/TK level as Ret? I don't want to go into a raid as Ret when I get the rest of my gear with a lackluster weapon. I know the S3 stuff is very good, but I am just a casual PvPer, and my personal rating will probably never be high enough to get the S3 Sword or Mace.

If the weapon I have is not good enough, what should I be trying to get? I could probably save enough arena points for the [Merciless Gladiator's Bonegrinder], would that be a big upgrade from the [Hammer of the Naaru]?

Thanks for your advice!
#258SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
The Hammer of the Naaru is a good raiding Ret weapon. Not the best, but good. I don't think it's a bad place to start at all if you're just stepping into SSC/TK. Aside from crafting and arenas, you're not going to get much better before SSC/TK anyways.
#259SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Nicolai View Post
The Hammer of the Naaru is a good raiding Ret weapon. Not the best, but good. I don't think it's a bad place to start at all if you're just stepping into SSC/TK. Aside from crafting and arenas, you're not going to get much better before SSC/TK anyways.
The only other comparable weapon you'd have access to stepping into the beginning of SSC/TK that's not a craftable or PvP weapon is [Gorehowl], to my knowledge. Prince Malchezaar awaits!
#260SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Silverbreeze
First off I'd like to say thanks for the great thread, there's lots of good information here so keep it up.

Now, my question is, after seeing the new Arena Season 3 Scaled Gloves, I've been curious as to if they would viable over other gloves you would find in Hyjal / Black Temple, if not just for the 5% Damage to Crusader Strike, which is a lot of damage, especially on criticals. Would [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] be preferred over other drops, such as [Pillager's Gauntlets] or [Grips of Silent Justice]? I know both of the other alternatives have hit rating on them, while the Gladiator piece doesnt, but the Gladiator also has Critical Strike rating whereas the other two pieces don't. I know Haste and Armor Ignoring are two stats that are commonly talked about in terms of viability for Paladins, but would the Season 3 gloves be worth the loss of Strength, Hit, Haste or Armor Penetration, for the return of 5% Crusader Strike?
#261SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rheyah
Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
SoR spell damage contribution is 11% per second. That's why I don't have to factor in weapon speed to compute a DPS. And yeah, I used 3.8 weapon speed for SoC DPS evaluation.
I see, I wasn't aware it scaled like that. However it still doesn't take into account that to properly scale all involved attacks with crit, you need two seperate stats that are rarely on the same gear and in addition, despite SoR's considerable scaling it does not scale at all with raid buffs.

SoC, by comparison, will exceed what I consider to be give or take the maximum effective spell power of a Retribution paladin at around 2200AP and will continue scaling up to raid level attack powers of 3000+. Add on the critical hit problem (where SoC for me can have anything up to a 45% crit rate on raids at a 2X multipler) and SoR gets left far behind.

Might be interesting to see, but the real world implications of actually effectively using SoR would be too severe. I suspect that's why it's not really been given a huge amount of consideration.
#262SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lopaka
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
The only other comparable weapon you'd have access to stepping into the beginning of SSC/TK that's not a craftable or PvP weapon is [Gorehowl], to my knowledge. Prince Malchezaar awaits!
Well, we are 6/6 in SSC and 3/4 in TK [Kael is a jerkface], so we're not exactly stepping into those zones. We really don't run Kara anymore, so I am trying my best to finagle [World Breaker] now that I think most of our raiding warriors have it. So I am playing catch up gear-wise, and am trying my best to become viable for where we are now. If I am not lucky with [World Breaker], do you think the S2 arena mace should be my goal?
#263SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
If you're trying to gear up as Ret, I'd strongly consider running through HKM/Gruul with another raid group whenever you get the chance. There are 5-6 pretty good pieces in there that would make your life easier while you wait for SSC drops.

After sharding that stuff for a few weeks, I finally started raiding on my paladin and haven't seen any of it since. I'm hoping Thursday is a big one for me and I pick up new bracers, gloves, shoulders, and legs (and maybe even a Hammer of the Naaru while I continue to work on upgrading my Thunder). It's embarassing to have an Armory like mine even though we just killed Hydross. People are beginning to talk.
#264SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Lopaka
Originally Posted by Nicolai View Post
If you're trying to gear up as Ret, I'd strongly consider running through HKM/Gruul with another raid group whenever you get the chance. There are 5-6 pretty good pieces in there that would make your life easier while you wait for SSC drops.

After sharding that stuff for a few weeks, I finally started raiding on my paladin and haven't seen any of it since. I'm hoping Thursday is a big one for me and I pick up new bracers, gloves, shoulders, and legs (and maybe even a Hammer of the Naaru while I continue to work on upgrading my Thunder). It's embarassing to have an Armory like mine even though we just killed Hydross. People are beginning to talk.
I would love to jump into Gruul's sometime, but most guilds that are still running that will have people that need that dps gear, and my chances would be pretty low. And we raid Sun-Thur, finding time to run more raids is going to be difficult. I've gotten a couple trash drops and what-not from SSC/TK already([Bands of the Celestial Archer]), so I'm hoping I won't have to run places we took off the calendar if I can help it.

Last edited by Lopaka : 10/24/07 at 2:02 PM. Reason: adding item link
#265SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
Well, we are 6/6 in SSC and 3/4 in TK [Kael is a jerkface], so we're not exactly stepping into those zones. We really don't run Kara anymore, so I am trying my best to finagle [World Breaker] now that I think most of our raiding warriors have it. So I am playing catch up gear-wise, and am trying my best to become viable for where we are now. If I am not lucky with [World Breaker], do you think the S2 arena mace should be my goal?
I'd say s2 bonegrinder would be a great option if you can't grab World Breaker. I'm holding out hope for a World Breaker myself, going to fight a fury warrior to the death for it - he wants a PvP toy.

Someone mentioned running Gruul's Lair to grab some pieces and catch up - I'd suggest getting your craftables on as well. I don't know your paladin's gear level, but [Black Felsteel Bracers] are great, you can live with a Ragesteel Breastplate for a while, a [Red Belt of Battle] would be awesome if you can beg and plead for some vortexes, and depending on your profession, other various pieces. I myself am an engineer, so I got some nice goggles.

It's rough out there, good luck getting your drops!
#266SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lopaka
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
I'd say s2 bonegrinder would be a great option if you can't grab World Breaker. I'm holding out hope for a World Breaker myself, going to fight a fury warrior to the death for it - he wants a PvP toy.

Someone mentioned running Gruul's Lair to grab some pieces and catch up - I'd suggest getting your craftables on as well. I don't know your paladin's gear level, but [Black Felsteel Bracers] are great, you can live with a Ragesteel Breastplate for a while, a [Red Belt of Battle] would be awesome if you can beg and plead for some vortexes, and depending on your profession, other various pieces. I myself am an engineer, so I got some nice goggles.

It's rough out there, good luck getting your drops!
Thanks for the tips! I am definitely going to try and sweet talk a [Red Belt of Battle] out of our GM when we have enough Vortexes and people's mains are taken care of. I am getting the Ragesteel Shoulders and Breastplate crafted as soon as I finish getting the rest of the mats together.
#267SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mortehl
Has anyone managed a WWS parse yet on the PTR by any miracle? I really want to see Crusader Strike in our 25 man raids in the worst way and I'm dealing with all the assorted bigotry and general misinformed stupidity within my guild at the moment.

What I wouldn't give for JoL, JoW AND JoTC up on bosses. It'd make my life tanking so much easier.
#268SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mortehl View Post
Has anyone managed a WWS parse yet on the PTR by any miracle? I really want to see Crusader Strike in our 25 man raids in the worst way and I'm dealing with all the assorted bigotry and general misinformed stupidity within my guild at the moment.

What I wouldn't give for JoL, JoW AND JoTC up on bosses. It'd make my life tanking so much easier.
I had a parse of my guild's attempts at ZA but I seem to have misplaced it (oddly not on my WWS account or my hard drive). If I find it I'll post it here, but if not I was doing about the damage of our resident fury warrior. We both had Windfury and Unleashed rage, neither had might (since I was the only pally in raid). The only problem that I noticed was mana constraints, which I could have easily compensated for by actually remembering to copy over my bank character so I had some mana pots. The only time I came close to pulling aggro on a boss is when I had Heroism and Avenging Wrath active at the same time.

Thats the best I can give you right now, if I head there again I'll record it. I'm sure someone else has a log though.
#269SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mortehl
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I had a parse of my guild's attempts at ZA but I seem to have misplaced it (oddly not on my WWS account or my hard drive). If I find it I'll post it here, but if not I was doing about the damage of our resident fury warrior. We both had Windfury and Unleashed rage, neither had might (since I was the only pally in raid). The only problem that I noticed was mana constraints, which I could have easily compensated for by actually remembering to copy over my bank character so I had some mana pots. The only time I came close to pulling aggro on a boss is when I had Heroism and Avenging Wrath active at the same time.

Thats the best I can give you right now, if I head there again I'll record it. I'm sure someone else has a log though.

Thanks for the information. This all feels in line with what I'm thinking, but I have to start putting together consistent, irrefutable evidence backed up by hard numbers that show bringing a retadin in will help us. I've already started grabbing quotes (such as the JoW math) from this thread and posting it, but until I get some parses in a raid environment, I'm wasting my time. Worse, I'm subjecting myself to the ravings of a very negative crowd; one warrior in particular who's crying because he knows damn well ret's time has come.
#270SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
I personally stuck with girdle of tidal call, I like having SOME int on my gear; I start to feel antsy if i'm under 6k unbuffed.

There's probably some mathematical flaw there, but I'm not terribly worried about it. I know JoW is the big part of sustainability after all, and actual mana pool is fairly irrelevant. I really don't like having a 5k or less mana pool though.

Weaponwise, I should be getting a Torch in the near future to upgrade from my own World Breaker. Glory awaits!
#271SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Bury
Bellator- Thank you for the spreadsheet, I'm having a great time playing around with it.

Question: Why are some of the entries in the hidden "DPS" sheet bolded?

edit:
1. Also, is it possible to include weapon speed/topend in while rating an item in the DPS sheet? I'm using the sheet to plan gear upgrades and such.
2. stats on the Crystalforge War-Helm are way off.
3. hmm, higher rating doesn't necessarily translate into higher SoC DPS. crap. how did you come up with the stat weightings in cells DPS!AM4:AM13?

Last edited by Bury : 10/24/07 at 6:00 PM.
#272SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
New 2.3 Notes for the last build to go up on the PTR's had a few small changes to paladins.

-Paladin seals no longer have a low chance to be dispelled if you have 3 points in Sanctified Seals.
-Judgement of Wisdom: It is no longer possible for the mana energize effect to trigger off of reapplication of the Judgement of Wisdom.
-Divine Favor: When this ability is cast immediately after a critical heal, it will no longer be removed incorrectly.
-Fanaticism (Retribution) now also reduces threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%.
-Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
-Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased.
-Spiritual Attunement: This ability will now gain mana properly from Vampiric Embrace heals

I'll do the warlock JoW stuff tonight. I promise.
#273SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mortehl View Post
Has anyone managed a WWS parse yet on the PTR by any miracle? I really want to see Crusader Strike in our 25 man raids in the worst way and I'm dealing with all the assorted bigotry and general misinformed stupidity within my guild at the moment.

What I wouldn't give for JoL, JoW AND JoTC up on bosses. It'd make my life tanking so much easier.
Here are some of my PTR WWS logs. Needles to say its much of pain to find proper random groups to even try out anything. Usually it ends up splatter with those blue geared tanks

Cromfel.Battlefield.fi - 2.3 Windfury Test PTR
#274SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Meuble
Hi everyone. I don't feel like creating a new thread for it so I'm just gonna ask here: As anyone tried Executionner on a ret weapon? On s3 set we're getting a lot of ignore armor (and on officials forums, lots of ret are despising it apparently), and there's some end game piece we can definitly use with this "new" stat.

Soo.. I know our rogues feels like mongooze will still be better for them. But what about ret pals? Is this new enchant better than mong? (or savagery btw) Anybody tried it himself already? If not I'll try to post some stats myself before the end of the week... I'll try.
#275SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Hi everyone. I don't feel like creating a new thread for it so I'm just gonna ask here: As anyone tried Executionner on a ret weapon? On s3 set we're getting a lot of ignore armor (and on officials forums, lots of ret are despising it apparently), and there's some end game piece we can definitly use with this "new" stat.

Soo.. I know our rogues feels like mongooze will still be better for them. But what about ret pals? Is this new enchant better than mong? (or savagery btw) Anybody tried it himself already? If not I'll try to post some stats myself before the end of the week... I'll try.
Judging by what we know of armor penetration for ret pallys (it only effects a portion of our damage), I'm going to say that Savagery is still the best weapon enchant for us. Executioner seems like a mainly rogue and warrior enchant, as they have much more to gain from armor penetration than ret pallys (all of their damage, excluding posions, are physical and thus mitigated by armor). I don't have any data at the moment to back this up, but if history proves true then Executioner will be a distant 3rd in useful ret pally enchants (Savagery > Mongoose > Executioner).
#276SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ayreon
Originally Posted by Mortehl View Post
Has anyone managed a WWS parse yet on the PTR by any miracle? I really want to see Crusader Strike in our 25 man raids in the worst way and I'm dealing with all the assorted bigotry and general misinformed stupidity within my guild at the moment.

What I wouldn't give for JoL, JoW AND JoTC up on bosses. It'd make my life tanking so much easier.
I have some from ZA if you are interested.

Wow Web Stats
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#277SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Actually I put my model for Mongoose into Bellator's DPS spreadsheet, and it's coming out about 10DPS above Savagery.
(for SoC)
Agility_Equivalency = 120*Proc_Uptime
Proc_Uptime=(1-(1-(Attack_Speed/60))^(15*(Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec+Insant_Hits_Per_Sec)))
Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec=1/Attack_Speed*(1-Miss_Chance-Dodge_Chance)
Dodge_Chance=5.6-(Expertise*0.25)/100
Instant_Hits_Per_Sec=((6.8+10+7)/60)*1.2

Of course this doesn't take into consideration Mongoose refreshing itself prematurely, but I don't see that dropping its value that far.
#278SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Actually I put my model for Mongoose into Bellator's DPS spreadsheet, and it's coming out about 10DPS above Savagery.
(for SoC)
Agility_Equivalency = 120*Proc_Uptime
Proc_Uptime=(1-(1-(Attack_Speed/60))^(15*(Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec+Insant_Hits_Per_Sec)))
Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec=1/Attack_Speed*(1-Miss_Chance-Dodge_Chance)
Dodge_Chance=5.6-(Expertise*0.25)/100
Instant_Hits_Per_Sec=((6.8+10+7)/60)*1.2

Of course this doesn't take into consideration Mongoose refreshing itself prematurely, but I don't see that dropping its value that far.
Interesting, to say the least. If this is true then we have a lot of changes to make to the standard model for Ret Paladins. As far back as I can remember we've been considering Savagery as a better sustained DPS enchant than Mongoose until a certain point where crit becomes greater than AP for DPS (I think it was somewhere around 2000 AP). I'd be interested in seeing some more on this (as we should be compiling a list of preferred enchants for the main page as well). If I can find a reasonably priced enchanter on the PTR's I'll try to get some preliminary reports of comparisons between the two.
#279SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Haven't had time to post for a while, so here's a bunch of things, nice to see this threat is flourishing:

bellator's spreadsheet:

I'm using v17 which I assume is the newest one currently.

Done some more testing and noticed the following "bugs":

-Merciless Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece is listing wrong stats.
-Turning "Vengeance" on/off (or taking different ranks) seems to have no effect on DPS
-Turning "Crusader Strike" on/off has no effect on DPS
(I know it's most probably never the case that you won't have those talents, but I'd like to see just how much they do add)
-Graph calc seems to work fine on Excel 2003, but takes an infinitely long time on my main PC running Excel 2007. Not that important I guess, but maybe you have an idea why



Also I'm wondering if the following could be added, they're just suggestions, though I feel they'd really move this spreadsheet one notch further towards completeness:

-[Alchemist's Stone], I know I've used this all the way up to Illidan, I'd love if it can be implemented in the spreadsheet. Also if the Equip Bonus can be considered in the "Time till OOM" calculation. This way we can finally see how valuable or negligible this trinket really is vs a "real" DPS trinket.

-Mongoose as an enchant is missing? I've hit over 2k self buffed AP with T6 gear giving tons of STR, so using mongoose to boost my crit was an option. Any chance this could be added? Would love to see if Savagery still pulls ahead or not with high AP gear.

-[Glyph of the Outcast], the no.1 choice for ret paladins if you're over the hit cap already. I'm using it currently until the next patch hits (and human racial is butchered). Gives slightly more AP since it's pure STR and int instead of the hit.

-[Formula: Enchant Boots - Surefooted], going to be a possible enchant come next patch to meet the hit cap.

-Also possibly Boar's Speed/Fortitude boot enchants for those of us who don't take dexterity (12 agi), it's currently not possible to turn that off even.

-T6 2 set bonus as part of the "time till OOM" calculation as I guess this will be the aim for many paladins for their endgame sets. I've personally experienced a rough 20% proc rate when checking logs.

-Blood Frenzy, I think this is a farily important raid buff that needs to be added. It's used extensively in my guild.

-Ferocious Inspiration, any chance that can be added as one of the group buffs? According to our main Beast Mastery hunter it's up pretty much 90%-100% of the time once frenzy goes off and then throughout the fight.

-Expose Weakness, we also use this very frequently in my guild. I guess this one is a bit harder to implement, since it depends on how much Agi your hunter in question has, but according to one of our hunters it adds roughly 220 AP to all melee for a hunter in mostly T6 gear.


Thanks for all the hard work, let me know if you need a hand with the testing/debugging.

Last edited by Avitus : 10/24/07 at 11:59 PM.
#280SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Slight tangent - anyone have an explanation for how I attacked 3 times in .6 seconds with a 2H weapon?



That picture shows the following:
-5:39 - You hit the Lurker for 473
-5:22 - You gain WF attack
-5:20 - You crit the Lurker for 1293
-4:72 - You hit the Lurker for 561


The weapon I was using was Hammer of the Naaru (3.60 AS); I had a Shaman in my group for WF totem and I had just cast JotC ... So did a judgement trigger WF, or did WF proc itself, or ... ?

Of course, this happened in the first 5 seconds of the fight, so I took a dirt nap quickly thereafter. = P
#281SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Leveling my paladin I ran across a couple times when I had 2 attacks hit right after eachother like you're saying, although I didn't look at the combat log times. I just excused it for being lag-related but now I'm not really sure... Any more info about this?
#282SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Weapons: Dunno why all the hub hub, but as some already mentioned: For alliance, slower, higher frontload damage weapons will always be supreme.

Why? Because despite CS being weapon speed normalized, SoC procs are NOT. You gain a lot more by having your AP bonus for your SoC procs multiplied by 3.8 rather than 3.5 for example. That's what makes weapons such as Thunder -> Stormherald and Torch of the Damned so great for ret paladins (especially human ones).

For belfs using SoB weapon speed should be pretty much irrelevant afaik, correct me if I'm wrong.



Haste rating: I did some pretty unorthodox testing a few days ago on the blasted lands mobs (the ones that never die).

The idea was, to detect the minimal difference in proc chances given current haste gear, I'd need 1000-10000 hit tests over hours/days to get reliable results.

So instead, I tried a sort of unorthodox, brute force test, the setup was basically a 8 man raid and got 7 shammies to give me chain heroism for 7x40 secs, juggling shammies into my party as their heroism cooldowns are used.

This way I'd get a whopping 30% haste, which would otherwise require tons of gear to achieve.

My swing speed with my Torch of the Damned 3.8 speed + 50 haste on mace + 32 haste rating from Girdle of the Lightbearer + Heroism + mongoose procs was: ~2.75 swing speed

Keep in mind, the goal here is not to get an accurate number, but rather to see if haste affects SoC proc rating in any way shape or form.

With this amount of haste, I was hoping it would be pretty obvious whether haste affected SoC procs or not, even over such a short duration, though I fully understand that this is a very rough test and that results cannot be quoted as accurate.


Theory:

1. Proc chance with a 3.8 speed weapon: 7/60 * 3.8 = 44.3% chance to proc SoC

PPM = 7

If haste does not affect proc chance: Over ~280 secs (=~4.8 mins) @ 7ppm I should get a ballpark range of ~34 SoC procs, regardless of how many attacks I make.

2. PPM if haste DOES affect SoC: 0.443/2.75 * 60 = ~9.67 ppm

If haste does affect proc chance: Over ~280 secs (=~4.8 mins) @ ~9.7ppm I should get a ballpark range of ~47 SoC procs.



Now the difference between 34 SoC procs and 47 SoC procs is pretty huge even over such a short period.


My results were:

Time 288.33 secs

Melee:
76 hits
47 crits
=123 total

SoC:
22 hits
13 crits
=35 total

(I also parried 18 attacks, which explains the increased number of attacks)

35 procs / 4.8 mins = 7.3 ppm


Despite the rough sample size, I can conclude that haste most probably does not increase SoC procs unfortunately. As such, haste is only good to increase autoattack dps for us, nothing more.

Disclaimer: Again I know this is a very rough test and I welcome anyone to run a more extensive test over more hits/time.

Last edited by Avitus : 10/25/07 at 1:51 AM.
#283SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
It's not about haste increasing the proc chance. If you'd get 9.7 ppm you could say haste doesn't change the proc chance, as a same % of your attacks procced. According to your results, haste REDUCES the proc chance to result in the same PPM value.

Bottom line is haste doesn't affect SoC DPS at all according to the test in the above post.
Since haste doesn't affect CS or JoC either, we're left with haste only boosting white damage, which is a rather small % of the DPS compared to rogues/warriors, meaning haste will probably not be worth it unless the item is much higher level than what you're comparing it to or if haste has a lot lower itemization cost than I would expect it to have.
#284SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
It's not about haste increasing the proc chance. If you'd get 9.7 ppm you could say haste doesn't change the proc chance, as a same % of your attacks procced. According to your results, haste REDUCES the proc chance to result in the same PPM value.

Bottom line is haste doesn't affect SoC DPS at all according to the test in the above post.
Since haste doesn't affect CS or JoC either, we're left with haste only boosting white damage, which is a rather small % of the DPS compared to rogues/warriors, meaning haste will probably not be worth it unless the item is much higher level than what you're comparing it to or if haste has a lot lower itemization cost than I would expect it to have.
Small amount of DPS? I have white damage in multiple combat logs, as well as my own, listing it at 45-50% of damage. I'd say haste may not be optimal, but it's certainly nothing to snark at.
#285SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
It's not about haste increasing the proc chance. If you'd get 9.7 ppm you could say haste doesn't change the proc chance, as a same % of your attacks procced. According to your results, haste REDUCES the proc chance to result in the same PPM value.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious, rather than pointing to my typo :P

When I said proc chance, I basically mean procs, proc amount, procs per minute, ppm, not the proc percentage obviously.

Haste does not increase ppm
#286SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Small amount of DPS? I have white damage in multiple combat logs, as well as my own, listing it at 45-50% of damage. I'd say haste may not be optimal, but it's certainly nothing to snark at.
Exactly what I was going to say. White damage isn't a huge amount of our DPS, but its not a small amount either. Thats why stats like haste and armor pen aren't terrible for us (though not great either). Yes, there are other things that increase our DPS more, but they are nothing to avoid like the plague either.
#287SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Whitebushido
We've seen the math on SoC dps with haste, but since SoB is a 100% guarentee how does haste rank up against other stats?

I'm currently leveling my own BE Paladin and at first intended him to be prot, seeing as ret was a weak tree, but this patch looks like it might make it a very viable spec for raiding and I'm just trying to min/max my way through it.
#288SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
For SoC, haste just isn't worth the item cost when compared to other stats.
Almost all haste items out there sacrifice Crit in order to get Haste, which, as we can see, isn't worth the trade-off.

For SoB, Strength is worth more than Haste, which in turn is worth even more Crit.
#289SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Elzam
Has there been any approximate estimations on how, if any, the proposed 2.3 changes will alter the choice of gem selections for Retribution Paladins? With the advent of the 30 second Vengeance and the inclusion of yet more crit in the form of the 3-point Sanctified Seals, has anyone been able to thoroughly re-gem on the PTR in order to perhaps venture a decent guess at what the proper balance might be?

For example, currently on PTR in Retribution Gear when specced I will have 1848 AP / 30.63% Crit / 8867 HP / 5148 Mana. However, given that the bonuses of Improved Crusader and Libram of Avengement will be 5.48% more crit from only self-buffs, is it safe to say that many Paladins who formerly geared for crit (most likely as I had done in my gear; Inscribed Noble Topaz) will popularize replacing these gems to attain a lower crit percentage in favor of adding more +8 Str gems?

Or, on the contrary, how does the issue of longevity in a raid truly factor into the Blood Elf Ret Paladin's damage taken by Seal of Blood being returned as mana via Spiritual Attunement and healing? Is this excess of crit that I seem to be experiencing on PTR (and I would venture to guess many Ret Paladins are) more suitable to removing crit in favor of Intellect/mp5 or am I correct in assuming that a raiding Retribution Paladin is allowed more leeway in order to neglect Intellect and caster stats in favor of Str/AP due to the buffs and advantages of a raid setting?

I apologize if this is a lot all at once, there are just some itemization issues floating in my head that I feel that perhaps a regemming might be able to solve.
#290SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
bellator
Hey guys, sorry for not replying over last couple of days...work This may become a bit of a monster.

Originally Posted by Bury View Post
Bellator- Thank you for the spreadsheet, I'm having a great time playing around with it.

Question: Why are some of the entries in the hidden "DPS" sheet bolded?

edit:
1. Also, is it possible to include weapon speed/topend in while rating an item in the DPS sheet? I'm using the sheet to plan gear upgrades and such.
2. stats on the Crystalforge War-Helm are way off.
3. hmm, higher rating doesn't necessarily translate into higher SoC DPS. crap. how did you come up with the stat weightings in cells DPS!AM4:AM13?
When the spreadsheet was not public, i used to bold the items i had. Some of that must have carried over. This is all there is too it (wont effect anything):p

Re 1. - the ratings here are best not to be used. They were there for personal use when the sheet wasnt public. And yes, one of the drawbacks was the weapon top end/speed which needs to be factored in.

Re2. Yeah seems to be miles off. Correcte

3. Again these weightings are outdated. Before the front end SEP, for personal use i used to manually figure out weigthings at various points using set gear and increasing stats. I'd ignore these and use the SEP values on the main Character Sheet

Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
I can't compare them, because the spreadsheet doesn't work. OpenOffice, remember? :P
Oops, sorry i fogot

Originally Posted by Silverbreeze View Post
Now, my question is, after seeing the new Arena Season 3 Scaled Gloves, I've been curious as to if they would viable over other gloves you would find in Hyjal / Black Temple.
These gloves are more than viable, best in game.

Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
....Mongoose Modeling...
Whats the ppm of mongoose (for normal autoattack)? Will try and add it in to the sheet.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Haven't had time to post for a while, so here's a bunch of things, nice to see this threat is flourishing:

bellator's spreadsheet:

I'm using v17 which I assume is the newest one currently.

Done some more testing and noticed the following "bugs":

1-Merciless Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece is listing wrong stats.
2-Turning "Vengeance" on/off (or taking different ranks) seems to have no effect on DPS
3-Turning "Crusader Strike" on/off has no effect on DPS
(I know it's most probably never the case that you won't have those talents, but I'd like to see just how much they do add)
4-Graph calc seems to work fine on Excel 2003, but takes an infinitely long time on my main PC running Excel 2007. Not that important I guess, but maybe you have an idea why
1 - This is because i called the shoulders the same as the chest, and this the shoulder stats were filtering through. Has been fixed
2/3 - In the originial notes i mentioned that both of these were not working, as a ret paladin without 5/5veng and CS is a holy pala :p. However both have been fixed and working
4 - Honestly, no idea. Equip really bad gear and run it. See how long it takes for better items to appear in the spreadsheet. It takes about 20-25 secs to run for me and my computer is pretty poor.


Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

Also I'm wondering if the following could be added, they're just suggestions, though I feel they'd really move this spreadsheet one notch further towards completeness:

-[Alchemist's Stone], I know I've used this all the way up to Illidan, I'd love if it can be implemented in the spreadsheet. Also if the Equip Bonus can be considered in the "Time till OOM" calculation. This way we can finally see how valuable or negligible this trinket really is vs a "real" DPS trinket.

-Mongoose as an enchant is missing? I've hit over 2k self buffed AP with T6 gear giving tons of STR, so using mongoose to boost my crit was an option. Any chance this could be added? Would love to see if Savagery still pulls ahead or not with high AP gear.

-[Glyph of the Outcast], the no.1 choice for ret paladins if you're over the hit cap already. I'm using it currently until the next patch hits (and human racial is butchered). Gives slightly more AP since it's pure STR and int instead of the hit.

-[Formula: Enchant Boots - Surefooted], going to be a possible enchant come next patch to meet the hit cap.

-Also possibly Boar's Speed/Fortitude boot enchants for those of us who don't take dexterity (12 agi), it's currently not possible to turn that off even.

-T6 2 set bonus as part of the "time till OOM" calculation as I guess this will be the aim for many paladins for their endgame sets. I've personally experienced a rough 20% proc rate when checking logs.

-Blood Frenzy, I think this is a farily important raid buff that needs to be added. It's used extensively in my guild.

-Ferocious Inspiration, any chance that can be added as one of the group buffs? According to our main Beast Mastery hunter it's up pretty much 90%-100% of the time once frenzy goes off and then throughout the fight.

-Expose Weakness, we also use this very frequently in my guild. I guess this one is a bit harder to implement, since it depends on how much Agi your hunter in question has, but according to one of our hunters it adds roughly 220 AP to all melee for a hunter in mostly T6 gear.
Alchemist's Stone - Has been added
Mongoose - Whats the ppm with white hits or effective uptime in a normal rotation? Will add as an estimation if i can get this info.
Glyph of the Outcase - Has been added
Boars Speed / Fortitude Added
Enchants can be turned to "None"
2 Piece Lightbringer added (20% proc from wowhead), assumed to proc of melee/SoC/CS/WF
2 piece Crystalforge added (35 mana reduction applied before benediction)
Blood Frenzy/Ferocious inspiration will be added today (both with 100% uptime. WF is a physical attack right?). Expose weakness will be added as a "Estimation" with 200AP increase


Blizz should take a note out of my book for implementing changes :p

Also:-
Some Blacksmith weapons will be added and world breaker will have a proc estimation attached to it.
CS will benefit from JotC and be normalised in next revision


Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Thanks for all the hard work, let me know if you need a hand with the testing/debugging.
Thank you kindly. Just keep letting me know where stats etc are wrong and ideas for new things.

Last edited by bellator : 10/25/07 at 8:06 AM.
#291SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
As my request to incorporate SoR to the DPS spreadsheet didn't receive any favorable echo, I'll try to discuss the scaling of a impSoR ret build compared to a SoC one per item point:

All the maths assume melee hit capped, dodge/parry is discussable, let's assume it affects both SoR and SoC the same way and is ignorable. Vengeance is ignored in all the maths as in its 2.3 state, it can be estimated constantly on 3 stacks even for a SoR build. Sanctity aura is up. Crusade, imp sanctity aura should affect both spec the same way.

Assuming divine strength, bok, enleashed rage, 1 strength = 2.662 AP = 1 item point
1 SD = 0.85 item point.

so, in cost, 1 item point = 2.662 AP = 1.176 SD, it gives us 1 SD = 2.26 AP.

let's estimate the value of a +100 SD upgrade for a impSoR build:
auto attack = 0 DPS
CS 0.4*100/6 = 6.66 DPS
SoR 0.11*100*1.15*1.1 = 13.91 DPS
JoR 0.73*100/8*1.15*1.1 = 11.54 DPS
Total with 2H spec = 33.34 DPS


let's see how good scales a SoC build with +226 AP:
auto attack 226/14 = 16.14 DPS
CS 226/14*3.3/6 = 8.88 DPS
SoC 6.8*(3.8*226/14*0.7)/60*1.1 = 5.35 DPS
JoC = 0 DPS
Total with 2H spec = 32.19 DPS

Please check my math, I hope this could motivate Bellator to add SoR in his spreadsheet
I would love to see the effect of melee crits, spell hits, glancing blows, partial resist, etc on a SoR build, but if you add concecration in the equation, I think an impSoR build can perfectly compete with a SoC build.
Djardin, i'm sorry if i sounded too negative about including SoR. If i have time i will include it, but time is not really on my side at the moment. Whilst your numbers do suggest that SoR could potentially be worthwhile I think the melee scaling is slightly off if you look at the spreadsheet and there are a few other points which will limit SoR pve viability....

1) Scaline - Your numbers shows 226AP = 32.19dps increase. If you look at the model the actual numbers show that 1 itemisation point of strength is 0.55dps increase for SoC. Your SoR numbers show 1 +dmg = 0.3334 dps increase. Which would be about 0.39 dps increase for 1 itemisation point. Even if other factors such as crit % modifiers etc etc were included i dont see this hitting the 0.55dps increase needed to be viable from a scaleing stance.

2) Raid Buffs. Whilst things like misery might have a minor increase for a SoR build i feel more would be lost from BoK/Bom/Motw/Sa/FF/CoR etc and thus it would be hard from a raid buffs perspective for SoR to be viable

3) Group buffs. A SoR paladin would gain wrath of air and a spriest (for a little more consecration damage). However would lose out on Battle Shout, WF, SoE, Unleashed rage. This is a huge difference and again would make it very hard for a SoR paladin to compete.

4) Stats and itemisation. This gets a little more complicated. Lets divide stats into three categories:-

a) Raw Damage numbers (Str/+dmg)
b) Anti Miss Numbers (+hit / +sphit / WE)
c) Spike Damage (Crit/Agi/SpCrit)

Now lets assume point 1) is incorrect and Str/+dmg scale equally as well. Looking first at anti miss numbers, a SoR build would not use sphit. The reason being that SoR has a 100% proc rate off melee hits that miss. Increasing the hit chance of Melee/(and thus SoR)/CS would be far more beneficial than increasing the numbers of . There are very few items with +dmg +melee hit on them, thus limiting the viability of SoR. Now moving onto spike damage, a SoC build benefits from +Crit, however since SoR cant crit and JoR uses +spell crit, then +melee crit is devalued in a SoR build and +spcrit's value is also minimal, thus you would want a low crit build as it is a wasted stat. On the flip side haste would become more beneficial as it does with SoB, however this means that to gear a SoR paladin properly would require +dmg/Melee hit/Haste. Again, there is little/no itemisation for this and would make the paladin suffer.

As i said if i have time, i will try to model it as whilst i'm far from convinced SoR will ever be raid viable, i am intrigued as to the actual numbers.
#292SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
For SoC, haste just isn't worth the item cost when compared to other stats.
Almost all haste items out there sacrifice Crit in order to get Haste, which, as we can see, isn't worth the trade-off.

For SoB, Strength is worth more than Haste, which in turn is worth even more Crit.
At the moment crit isn't too valuable either (mainly due to aggro issues). Until someone calculates out the Crit versus AP point of inflection I'm going to go with the old mantra of getting the bare minimum crit to keep your vengeance up and then going straight for the attack power. I'm sure some of this will change in 2.3 with the threat reduction, but for now both stats are relatively lackluster.
#293SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
At the moment crit isn't too valuable either (mainly due to aggro issues). Until someone calculates out the Crit versus AP point of inflection I'm going to go with the old mantra of getting the bare minimum crit to keep your vengeance up and then going straight for the attack power. I'm sure some of this will change in 2.3 with the threat reduction, but for now both stats are relatively lackluster.
From the model, crit seems to catch up with AP at just a little over the 5000AP mark. Since the max AP possible when raiding is around the 4000 mark, there is still a little way to go.

It should be pointed out of course, whilst for a SoC build stats like crit/haste/armour pen are a little lacklustre, you should not just ignore an item because it has haste on it. Look at all attributes see their combined dps increase compared to others and then select. As there are a number if items with haste/armour pen which are in fact better than pure str items due to better overall itemisation
#294SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Guess this will make some people (*wink Cromfel) happy:
mmo-champion.com
Also it seems that one of the paladin change already listed in the updated patch notes has been modified slightly, the threat reduction on Fanaticism no longer works when Righteous Fury is active.
#295SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
A question for you all. Let's assume for a second that another paladin in your raid has Improved Blessing of Might covered, freeing up 5 points in the popular 5/8/48 spec (shown here - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)

I'm trying to determine where those 5 points should go instead. Not knowing much about the nature of movement speed increasers, I'm not sure whether Pursuit of Justice would be a worthwhile investment if I have Cat's Swiftness or Boar's Speed on my boots. It says right in the talent that it does not stack with other movement enhancements, so my inclination is to say that it's not worth my points if I enchant Boar's or Cat's. However, I have been told that the enchants are an 8% movement speed increase, while PoJ with 3 points in it will be 12%. Is the talent worth the investment if I have points to spend?

Also, if I do grab PoJ, that leaves me with 2 points still. In a PvE raid-oriented build, I'm thinking that 2 points into Divine Intellect might server well for increased mana pool.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Most raid ret builds I see have 5 points sunk into IBoM, how would you craft a build without it? Here's my take, with a placeholder point in Vindication for the 3rd PoJ point: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
#296SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Guess this will make some people (*wink Cromfel) happy:
mmo-champion.com
Yay, I can tank 5-mans still! :P
#297SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
A question for you all. Let's assume for a second that another paladin in your raid has Improved Blessing of Might covered, freeing up 5 points in the popular 5/8/48 spec (shown here - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
I would probably put 3 points in Pursuit of Justice (I plan on having Surefooted on my boots), and then two points in Guardian's Favor. Handy on fights where Blessing of Freedom needs to be ready often, and also handy for either saving some other DPS, or saving yourself a little more often - even if it's just on trash, or in PVP.
#298SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
I would probably put 3 points in Pursuit of Justice (I plan on having Surefooted on my boots), and then two points in Guardian's Favor. Handy on fights where Blessing of Freedom needs to be ready often, and also handy for either saving some other DPS, or saving yourself a little more often - even if it's just on trash, or in PVP.
So, to sum it up, 5/10/46 with 3/3 PoJ and Surefooted on boots? I believe I could buy into that. Would 2/2 Guardian's Favor be more valuable than 2/5 Divine Intellect, though? Is 4% boost to INT a worthwhile investment for a ret paladin in t5/t6 raids?
#299SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lopaka
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
I would probably put 3 points in Pursuit of Justice (I plan on having Surefooted on my boots), and then two points in Guardian's Favor. Handy on fights where Blessing of Freedom needs to be ready often, and also handy for either saving some other DPS, or saving yourself a little more often - even if it's just on trash, or in PVP.
This is exactly what I was planning to do as well. It's nice to know someone else was thinking along the same lines, makes me feel like less of a scrub.
#300SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Djardin, i'm sorry if i sounded too negative about including SoR. If i have time i will include it, but time is not really on my side at the moment. Whilst your numbers do suggest that SoR could potentially be worthwhile I think the melee scaling is slightly off if you look at the spreadsheet and there are a few other points which will limit SoR pve viability....

1) Scaline - Your numbers shows 226AP = 32.19dps increase. If you look at the model the actual numbers show that 1 itemisation point of strength is 0.55dps increase for SoC. Your SoR numbers show 1 +dmg = 0.3334 dps increase. Which would be about 0.39 dps increase for 1 itemisation point. Even if other factors such as crit % modifiers etc etc were included i dont see this hitting the 0.55dps increase needed to be viable from a scaleing stance.
Reread my post, my math doesn't include vengeance or melee/spell crit...

I got the idea to use SoR instead of SoC when I looked a the WWS of some ret pala, and divided the damage done by SoC (including crits) on a boss by the number of melee hits ... It turned out to be between 400 and 500 ... That is very far from what a SoR build can do. But of course if you increase your spell damage to increase SoR procs, you'll decrease your attack power and decrease your white hits.

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
2) Raid Buffs. Whilst things like misery might have a minor increase for a SoR build i feel more would be lost from BoK/Bom/Motw/Sa/FF/CoR etc and thus it would be hard from a raid buffs perspective for SoR to be viable
It's true there is less spell damage buffs than there is attack power ones. But it doesn't change the fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC, even with less buff. And the whites hits/CS of a ret pala using SoR and the whites hits/CS of a ret pala using SoC gains as much from attack power buffs.

Even better, SoR scales with haste, SoC doesn't. And I'm almost sure it's the same with WF. (My theory is that WF can proc SoC but it doesn't increase the number of SoC proc you're getting per minutes, there is no restriction for SoR).

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
3) Group buffs. A SoR paladin would gain wrath of air and a spriest (for a little more consecration damage). However would lose out on Battle Shout, WF, SoE, Unleashed rage. This is a huge difference and again would make it very hard for a SoR paladin to compete.
If you itemize hoping you'll get some buffs, you're nerfing yourself when you don't have them. And it's especially true for a ret pala. When a SoC based ret pala is pulled out of the melee group and doesn't get his BS, WF, SoE, UR ... he does crap damage.
A SoR based ret pala put in a melee group would probably do a bit less damage than a SoC based one, but he would do a lot more in every other groups.

So, if you're always in a DPS warrior/enh shamy/feral druid group as a ret pala, then you're VERY lucky and you should use SoC ... if not, then maybe it could be interresting to be flexible.

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
4) Stats and itemisation. This gets a little more complicated. Lets divide stats into three categories:-

a) Raw Damage numbers (Str/+dmg)
b) Anti Miss Numbers (+hit / +sphit / WE)
c) Spike Damage (Crit/Agi/SpCrit)

Now lets assume point 1) is incorrect and Str/+dmg scale equally as well. Looking first at anti miss numbers, a SoR build would not use sphit. The reason being that SoR has a 100% proc rate off melee hits that miss. Increasing the hit chance of Melee/(and thus SoR)/CS would be far more beneficial than increasing the numbers of . There are very few items with +dmg +melee hit on them, thus limiting the viability of SoR. Now moving onto spike damage, a SoC build benefits from +Crit, however since SoR cant crit and JoR uses +spell crit, then +melee crit is devalued in a SoR build and +spcrit's value is also minimal, thus you would want a low crit build as it is a wasted stat. On the flip side haste would become more beneficial as it does with SoB, however this means that to gear a SoR paladin properly would require +dmg/Melee hit/Haste. Again, there is little/no itemisation for this and would make the paladin suffer.
- T4/T5/T6 and now the arena S3 gear have all spell damage and melee hits on some parts
- Check some of the new 2.3 talents:
- improved JoCr added in the base spell ... it gives around +40 spell damage, almost useless for SoC ... kinda good for SoR.
- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR.
- vengeance duration increase to 30 seconds ... (so useless for a SoC pala with 30% crit, so usefull for a SoR pala with 20% crit)
About itemization, nothing prevent you to mix fury warrior gear with +hit/+haste and PVE ret pala sets with strength/spell damage, and there are indeed some BT gear with melee haste, strength and spell damage (a belt I think).
#301SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
But it doesn't change the fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC, even with less buff.
What exactly are you saying here? That when not in an ideal group, or when you're placed into a caster group, that a traditional ret paladin should be using SoR? Or the spec you suggested with improved Righteousness would be better dps in non-ideal groups and the proper itemization? Are we talking just the damage from the seal itself?
#302SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Forthright
I'm really enjoying the read so far, but I'm wondering what the dps cycle looks like if you weave Consecrate in. I'm considering an early post that suggested an Alchemist's Stone to more or less permanently maintain Consecrate, but I'm not sure if it takes priority over Judgement in a cycle. Assuming max rank of both.

With the change to Mana Potion Injectors (non-engineers can now use them) and considering how much dps rank 4 consecrate adds, I'm taking a serious look at 'paladin' items with +sd.
#303SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
What exactly are you saying here? That when not in an ideal group, or when you're placed into a caster group, that a traditional ret paladin should be using SoR? Or the spec you suggested with improved Righteousness would be better dps in non-ideal groups and the proper itemization? Are we talking just the damage from the seal itself?
He's saying there are conditions, or possible conditions, where SoR will outDPS SoC. (Seal DPS comparison)

"SoC is the best DPS seal" is ancient paladein dogma which was strictly true before TBC - but with all of the changes that came with TBC (SoV + SoR, SoR weapon speed normalization, passive haste, access to WF), that may no longer be true in all cases.


Those who are serious about maxing their "Raid DPS" may want to take a serious look - we should at least know *why* not to use SoR.
#304SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
New Version of Ret DPS Spreadsheet

Here is the new Paladin dps spreadsheet version 1.8. Read the last few pages of the thread to see what has been added to it:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I have also put together a rough version of the spreadsheet which can be used to model SoR:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Notes:-

This version models in SoR/JoR/Consecration. It includes some extra +dmg items, some gems/enchants etc. However it is far less complete than for SoC items.

There is the Imp Judgement of Righteousness talent and wrath of air totem included and an option in the play style to include max rank consecration spamming.

Please Note that when setting up buffs/consecration spam pay attention to which dps group you are in. If you are in a melee group with WF etc etc then you shouldnt turn on max rank consecration spam as you wont have a shadow priest to support you. If you are in a caster group you can put consecration on but must turn off things like WF/battle shout etc etc. Putting everything on is an unrealistic option and will make SoR dps look far greater than it is.

Conclusions for model:-

When comparing a SoR gear build to a SoC gear build, it can be seen that being put in a caster group and allowed to spam max rank consecrations is better for the SoR build then being put in the melee group. Both significantly increase dps but the caster group slightly beats the melee group option.

When it comes to effectiveness of str in SoC build to +dmg in SoR build, the str option does have a slightly bigger impact on damage. However the difference is a lot closer than i imagined.

However in terms of output dps, the SoC build did beat the SoR build by 200-300dps depending on buffs etc. This is due to all the reasons i mentioned earlier. Scaling (whilst not as bad as i thought) did play a role. Then theres the raid/group buffs problem and itemisation problems mentioned. With better itemisation i'm sure this could be reduced to about 100-150 dps difference, but for the moment, SoC is still the superior build

Play around and have fun with the SoR version, but please be careful as if you set up buffs/consecration usage unrealistically, you will get unrealistic SoR numbers.

--------------------------------------------------

Djardin, have a play with the new model. A few points regarding your post....

Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
Reread my post, my math doesn't include vengeance or melee/spell crit...
I'm sorry, but the first quote of mine you used had the line "Even if other factors such as crit % modifiers etc etc were included"....i did read your post properly and included these factors.

Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
It's true there is less spell damage buffs than there is attack power ones. But it doesn't change the fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC, even with less buff.
The fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC with less buffs is irrelevant as you have to take into account all the buffs the paladin will have which will make SoC superior to SoR.

Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
And the whites hits/CS of a ret pala using SoR and the whites hits/CS of a ret pala using SoC gains as much from attack power buffs.
This isn't entirely true, as a SoC build will have more melee crit, which will have a multiplicitive effect on the white/CS gains from AP.

Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
Even better, SoR scales with haste, SoC doesn't. And I'm almost sure it's the same with WF. (My theory is that WF can proc SoC but it doesn't increase the number of SoC proc you're getting per minutes, there is no restriction for SoR).
Here's one big problem with the SoR build. To be able to use consecration, you need a shadow priest in your group which means you won't get WF. Even if SoR is better with WF than SoC you lose the big chunk of consecration damage through not having a shadow priest .

Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
If you itemize hoping you'll get some buffs, you're nerfing yourself when you don't have them. And it's especially true for a ret pala. When a SoC based ret pala is pulled out of the melee group and doesn't get his BS, WF, SoE, UR ... he does crap damage. A SoR based ret pala put in a melee group would probably do a bit less damage than a SoC based one, but he would do a lot more in every other groups.

So, if you're always in a DPS warrior/enh shamy/feral druid group as a ret pala, then you're VERY lucky and you should use SoC ... if not, then maybe it could be interresting to be flexible.
Firstly whilst a SoC based paladin might lose more outside of a melee group than a SoR paladin, if inside the group the SoC paladin was doing more dps then there is no reason why outside of the group (even after the bigger loss) he is still doing the same/more dps than the SoR paladin.

Anyway, it's besides the point. Being put in a melee group isn't "Very lucky" it's sensible. Any end game raid leader will know that ret paladins gain an awful lot from being in a melee group (probably more than any other class). If there isnt a spot in a melee group the the ret paladin, then you dont bring the ret paladin to the raid as there are far better dps choices available who don't scale as badly outside the melee group


Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
- T4/T5/T6 and now the arena S3 gear have all spell damage and melee hits on some parts
2 pieces of S3 gear have hit. They also have wasted points in resiliance and excessive stamina. 1 Piece of lightbringer and 2 pieces of crystalforge have hit. And all of tier 5/6 waste points in intellect/strength and have large portions of crit which isnt ideal for SoR. Not saying these items are all bad, but far poorer itemised compared to some of the Str/Crit gear that can be found

Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
- Check some of the new 2.3 talents:[indent]- improved JoCr added in the base spell ... it gives around +40 spell damage, almost useless for SoC ... kinda good for SoR.
- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR.
- vengeance duration increase to 30 seconds ... (so useless for a SoC pala with 30% crit, so usefull for a SoR pala with 20% crit)
My model above is based around 2.3 talents. So the marginal extra benefits these will give SoR compared to SoC build has been included. I do think you're exaggerating the effectiveness of these a little however.
#305SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Forthright View Post
I'm really enjoying the read so far, but I'm wondering what the dps cycle looks like if you weave Consecrate in. I'm considering an early post that suggested an Alchemist's Stone to more or less permanently maintain Consecrate
This depends on the level of consecration. Alchemists stone is 8 mana per second gain. Max rank consecrate is 82.5 mana per second loss. Min rank is 15 mana per second loss. Min rank consecrate without spell damage but with JotC would give about 36 dps gain.
#306SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Those who are serious about maxing their "Raid DPS" may want to take a serious look - we should at least know *why* not to use SoR.
Have waffled on about SoR previously. I think in short, the 3 main reasons why not to use the seal is :-

1) Slightly poorer scaleing of +dmg with SoR than str with SoC
2) Buff wise, melee group buffs effect SoC by "X" amount and caster buffs increase SoC by "Y" amount (X>>Y). With SoR, the effect melee buffs have is <X but the effect caster buffs have is >Y. However melee group buff effect on SoC is greater than caster group buff on SoR
3) Itemisation wise SoC wants str/hit/crit which we can get by stealing warrior loot. SoR wants +damage / melee hit / melee haste. Good itemisation of these stats does not exist without points being wasted in crit/str/resiliance etc.
#307SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Forthright View Post
- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR.
JoC is spell hit.
#308SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Have waffled on about SoR previously. I think in short, the 3 main reasons why not to use the seal is :-

1) Slightly poorer scaleing of +dmg with SoR than str with SoC
2) Buff wise, melee group buffs effect SoC by "X" amount and caster buffs increase SoC by "Y" amount (X>>Y). With SoR, the effect melee buffs have is <X but the effect caster buffs have is >Y. However melee group buff effect on SoC is greater than caster group buff on SoR
3) Itemisation wise SoC wants str/hit/crit which we can get by stealing warrior loot. SoR wants +damage / melee hit / melee haste. Good itemisation of these stats does not exist without points being wasted in crit/str/resiliance etc.
And here's a highly situational reason to use SoR - when you're wearing +dmg gear anyways to consecrate AoE packs.

If you can hit 5+ targets with Consecrate, your +dmg scaling from consecrate alone will blow away AP scaling. (and you want to be using a shield anyways if you're going to "tank" a few mobs)


Yeah, AoE packs aren't that frequent, but if you have the +dmg gear already (your +healing gear may work fine for that purpose in 2.3), and if it's the best tool for the job...? The point isn't to just recognize the best overall DPS seal - it's to recognize where the other DPS seals fit into the arsenal.


I'd also question if an SoR build is really "wasting points" in crit/str - autoattack is still a major portion of our damage, and a pure +dmg item will rarely provide more overall DPS than a combination Str/+dmg item.



To rephrase my thought - ability scaling depends completely on how you're using the abilities - and the way you use your abilities depends on the fight. So what are the best abilities to use against single targets? Double targets? AoE packs?


Boss fights are generally single target and thus all of this discussion should apply to that type of fight; but how about maximizing damage in fights with strange gimmicks? For example, Morogrim with the murloc packs - would a +dmg build do more damage due to the use of consecrate, or would focusing on the boss with the melee build yield more damage?
#309SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
So, to sum it up, 5/10/46 with 3/3 PoJ and Surefooted on boots? I believe I could buy into that. Would 2/2 Guardian's Favor be more valuable than 2/5 Divine Intellect, though? Is 4% boost to INT a worthwhile investment for a ret paladin in t5/t6 raids?
I tend to think you'd get more out of putting those 2 points somewhere in the Retribution tree. That's personal preference though.
#310SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Nicolai View Post
I tend to think you'd get more out of putting those 2 points somewhere in the Retribution tree. That's personal preference though.
Well, the choices are IBoM, Vindication, Deflection, Eye for an Eye, Improved Ret Aura, or Divine Purpose. If you think that 2 points in one of those talents is better for PvE raiding than either shorter cooldown on BoP/longer BoF duration or 4% more mana, please, state your case.

My view:

IBoM is 44 more AP per person at 5/5. 2/5 is about 17 more AP. I'm not feeling it, plus my assumption was that one of the holy paladins is covering might.
Vindication doesn't work on boss mobs in raids. I spec for bosses, trash can be dealt with.
Deflection - I shouldn't be getting hit, thus more parry isn't what I'm looking for...
Eye for an Eye - can NPC spells crit? Don't think they can...
Imp. Ret Aura - I'm using Sanctity
Divine Purpose - Again, shouldn't be getting hit. Seems like a PvP talent to me.

Thoughts?
#311SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Zeratull
IBoM would be my choise since it's the only one of those which actually gives you a DPS benefit in PvE and would buff you almost whole the time. And like you were thinking, NPC's can't crit you with spells so Eye for an Eye won't help you.
#312SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Bury
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Well, the choices are IBoM, Vindication, Deflection, Eye for an Eye, Improved Ret Aura, or Divine Purpose. If you think that 2 points in one of those talents is better for PvE raiding than either shorter cooldown on BoP/longer BoF duration or 4% more mana, please, state your case.

My view:

IBoM is 44 more AP per person at 5/5. 2/5 is about 17 more AP. I'm not feeling it, plus my assumption was that one of the holy paladins is covering might.
Vindication doesn't work on boss mobs in raids. I spec for bosses, trash can be dealt with.
Deflection - I shouldn't be getting hit, thus more parry isn't what I'm looking for...
Eye for an Eye - can NPC spells crit? Don't think they can...
Imp. Ret Aura - I'm using Sanctity
Divine Purpose - Again, shouldn't be getting hit. Seems like a PvP talent to me.

Thoughts?
What is 4% more mana for you? For me at 4000 mana, that's a measly 160 mana, or about 10 intellect's worth of mana. I think going for BoK might be better for situations where you'd be the only paladin--seems plausible in heroics and ZA.
On the other hand, Spiritual Focus seems invaluable if you ever PvP.
#313SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
I think it's pretty safe to assume someone else is picking up the Imp BoM.

I don't have a case for any of your other options. If you're strictly a PVEr, then 4% from DI is your best bet I suppose. I was assuming since you were thinking of Guardian's Favor you might want to give yourself a PVP boost.

Strictly PVE, I think teh DI is your best bet. They're pretty much throwaway points though, given how little INT is likely to be on your Ret gear.
#314SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
And here's a highly situational reason to use SoR - when you're wearing +dmg gear anyways to consecrate AoE packs.

If you can hit 5+ targets with Consecrate, your +dmg scaling from consecrate alone will blow away AP scaling. (and you want to be using a shield anyways if you're going to "tank" a few mobs)

Yeah, AoE packs aren't that frequent, but if you have the +dmg gear already (your +healing gear may work fine for that purpose in 2.3), and if it's the best tool for the job...? The point isn't to just recognize the best overall DPS seal - it's to recognize where the other DPS seals fit into the arsenal.

Boss fights are generally single target and thus all of this discussion should apply to that type of fight; but how about maximizing damage in fights with strange gimmicks? For example, Morogrim with the murloc packs - would a +dmg build do more damage due to the use of consecrate, or would focusing on the boss with the melee build yield more damage?
Whilst i agree that +dmg gear would be better to consecrate AOE packs, and that in theory on morogrim if the murlocs were tanked on top of morogrim your total damage might be increased by using +dmg gear and SoR, it's essential to look at the situation in a realistic raid scenario.

99% of the time SoC is the best option. As such you will be placed in a melee group as standard. Now the raid arrives at Morogrim. Whilst your dps might be increased with SoR and consecrating murlocs, without a shadow priest in your group you will not be able to consecrate. Now your shadow priest will be in a group with your AOE experts (mages/warlocks) and probably a shaman for more mana and WoA. Now no raid leader alive would switch out a mage/warlock to allow a paladin to consecrate. Thus you will not be able to consecrate without running oom and crippling your dps, so your role on morogrim will be single targeting him down.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I'd also question if an SoR build is really "wasting points" in crit/str - autoattack is still a major portion of our damage, and a pure +dmg item will rarely provide more overall DPS than a combination Str/+dmg item.
Maybe the term "wasting" was inapproproate. Looking at the spreadsheet. +dmg is 70% more effective at increasing dps than strength and 100% more effective than crit. Thus with this kind of difference, even with the diminishing returns of stacking one stat, pure +dmg may still be better than bringing crit in.
#315SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
JoC is spell hit.
- JoC is around 5-6% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in strength
- JoR is around 15% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in spell damage
#316SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
99% of the time SoC is the best option. As such you will be placed in a melee group as standard. Now the raid arrives at Morogrim. Whilst your dps might be increased with SoR and consecrating murlocs, without a shadow priest in your group you will not be able to consecrate. Now your shadow priest will be in a group with your AOE experts (mages/warlocks) and probably a shaman for more mana and WoA. Now no raid leader alive would switch out a mage/warlock to allow a paladin to consecrate. Thus you will not be able to consecrate without running oom and crippling your dps, so your role on morogrim will be single targeting him down.
Nothing prevent you from using concecrate rank 1 ... easily spammable during a boss fight without shadow priest and does around 80 DPS per target in spell damage gear, more if you switch to a 1H/shield on a pack.

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Maybe the term "wasting" was inapproproate. Looking at the spreadsheet. +dmg is 70% more effective at increasing dps than strength and 100% more effective than crit. Thus with this kind of difference, even with the diminishing returns of stacking one stat, pure +dmg may still be better than bringing crit in.
Can't wait to play with your new spreadsheet
#317SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Whilst i agree that +dmg gear would be better to consecrate AOE packs, and that in theory on morogrim if the murlocs were tanked on top of morogrim your total damage might be increased by using +dmg gear and SoR, it's essential to look at the situation in a realistic raid scenario.

99% of the time SoC is the best option. As such you will be placed in a melee group as standard. Now the raid arrives at Morogrim. Whilst your dps might be increased with SoR and consecrating murlocs, without a shadow priest in your group you will not be able to consecrate. Now your shadow priest will be in a group with your AOE experts (mages/warlocks) and probably a shaman for more mana and WoA. Now no raid leader alive would switch out a mage/warlock to allow a paladin to consecrate. Thus you will not be able to consecrate without running oom and crippling your dps, so your role on morogrim will be single targeting him down.
Well, a realistic raid scenario depends on your guild's actual class balance. I'm rarely in a melee group, and I heal at least 50% of my raids (on bosses). I'm personally more likely to see a S-Priest in my group than a Shaman. (My guild has 1 raiding Enh. Shaman and 3~4 raiding S-Priests)


My damage contribution is mainly on trash - and while trash is not sexy, one still need to kill their way through it to get to the boss. Assuming you're already being used in a DPS role, what should you be doing to maximize damage for an AoE pack?


Going back to the boss scenario - what does it mean to "run oom and cripple your DPS"? For mana usage - is it better to spend 660 mana dealing 8000 damage to a murloc pack, or 236 mana for a 1.5k CS? (Using made-up numbers)


But anyways, I'm just throwing out some random thoughts here. Single target DPS is going to be the most common scenario a DPSing paladin will deal with; assuming ideal group setup, melee-focus'd gear will probably yield the best returns.
#318SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
And here's a highly situational reason to use SoR - when you're wearing +dmg gear anyways to consecrate AoE packs.
Hmmm I'm pretty sure that really doesn't need pointing out, does it? With high spelldamage gear, SoR is better than SoC yes.


Point is, is a ret paladin traditionally used as AoE damage? And can they compete with good mages/locks in AoE damage? I'm pretty sure the answer here is no to both, this is from extensive experience, yes even on undead hyjal trash.

I feel and this is just a personal opinion, that we're currently going beyond the scope of this thread, which is purely about competitive ret DPS.

Can SoR under optimal conditions (gear/buffs/group etc) out DPS SoC under optimal conditions in any of the currently existing boss fights? I believe the answer is no here.
#319SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
- JoC is around 5-6% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in strength
- JoR is around 15% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in spell damage

Your exact quote is "- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR."

Just saying this change is most definitely not "useless" for JoC since JoC is spell hit, regardless of how much JoC contributes to a ret paladins overall damage.
#320SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
...
Point is, is a ret paladin traditionally used as AoE damage? And can they compete with good mages/locks in AoE damage? I'm pretty sure the answer here is no to both, this is from extensive experience, yes even on undead hyjal trash.
The more important question is if you should bother using AoE damage abilities if AoE will yield more overall DPS than single target damage abilities.

For boss fights, I think you could make the case that the extra AoE damage doesn't help kill the boss faster; thus you should focus on single target DPS, which does kill the boss faster.


For trash, especially AoE packs, you are trying to dish out as much AoE damage as you can. I'm assuming you're already in the raid, and that you're being used as DPS (rather than swapping you out for an extra mage/warlock for trash-clearing). In that case, what abilities should you use? SoC w/ a 2h + consecrate ? SoR w/ a 1h/Shield + consecrate?


I feel and this is just a personal opinion, that we're currently going beyond the scope of this thread, which is purely about competitive ret DPS.
And there's a very wide range of content where Ret is looking to be "competitive" - it's not just about single target raid boss damage. There's 5-mans, PvP, etc.

I can understand skipping the PvP scenarios - but Ret paladins who want to be raid DPS should develop that skill in the 5-mans, too. Furthermore, being able to do a 5-man instance and come in as #1 damage done/DPS is a great way to promote "Ret DPS awareness".

I think the overall goal of this thread is to squeeze every last drop of damage out of our class.


Can SoR under optimal conditions (gear/buffs/group etc) out DPS SoC under optimal conditions in any of the currently existing boss fights? I believe the answer is no here.
And what about realistic conditions?


Theoretically, casters can chain cast their abilities - but realistically they have to deal with lag. Ideally, we do the best damage with a Shaman for WF, Warrior for BS, Feral druid for LotP, and a S-Priest for mana regen. Realistically, the S-Priest will not go in a melee group, and even the paladin may not "deserve" a spot in that melee group.


Realistically, there are situations where SoR is better. All I'm asking is that we identify and recognize those situations.

We're technically not "viable raid DPS" right now, so why embrace old dogmas? = P
#321SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Yay, I can tank 5-mans still! :P


Yes its real. Now everyone can stop complaining that ret pallys fail at tanking (o.0).
#322SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post


Yes its real. Now everyone can stop complaining that ret pallys fail at tanking (o.0).
Now I can give my self permission to grab Redoubt while taking hit talents
#323SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Now I can give my self permission to grab Redoubt while taking hit talents
Hear-hear! (Or is it "here-here"?)
#324SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xellos
Armor penetration and spell damage that was going to be added on S3 ret gear is going to be replaced by more strength.

WoW Forums -> SEASON 3 RETRIBUTION: Complaint Compilation

Seems like good news overall, although I would like to see how much STR they add first.
#325SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Mongoose - Whats the ppm with white hits or effective uptime in a normal rotation? Will add as an estimation if i can get this info.
I did some digging, almost everywhere I saw a 1 ppm listed.

However, quiet a few people I asked said they experience a much higher proc, which is the same as my personal experience.

After some further digging, the answer was pretty obvious: Instant attacks like CS proc Mongoose too of course. /doh

Since Mongoose is a PPM, slow weapons have a higher chance to proc Mongoose for instant attacks.

For example, a 3.8 speed weapon would have a 1/60 * 3.8 = 6.33% chance to proc Mongoose every CS.

So atm (pre-2.3 buff) CS adds 6*6.33% chance to proc Mongoose per minute = 1.38 ppm

Post 2.3 CS should add 10 * 6.33% chance to proc Mongoose per minute = 1.633 ppm

I'm not certain how JoC/SoC/WF proc Mongoose, I'm halfway suspecting at least JoC and SoC proc Mongoose, not so sure about WF.

My personal experience is something like 50% uptime, which would correlate with 2ppm, however I can't say anything for sure till I do some testing.

For now, 1.38ppm with a 3.8 speed weapon is a minimum, a lot more if JoC/SoC and/or WF apply.
#326SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Armor penetration and spell damage that was going to be added on S3 ret gear is going to be replaced by more strength.

WoW Forums -> SEASON 3 RETRIBUTION: Complaint Compilation

Seems like good news overall, although I would like to see how much STR they add first.
I find that change rather odd, this has to be some kind of lead in for future changes :o
#327SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ankler
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
I find that change rather odd, this has to be some kind of lead in for future changes :o
Hopefully this is just Blizzard's first step in better itemization in regards to our retribution sets.
#328SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Agonar
Im not sure how i have to understand this changes actually.

1) Does that mean they are removing the EXTRA spell dmg compared to Season2 gears to give more strength?

OR

2) Does that mean they are removing ALL the spell dmg from the season 3 set? Because if im not mistaken we can practically consider +spell dmg to be +armor penetration when using SoC.

Not sure about the good interpretation :\
#329SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Meuble
Hopefully this is just Blizzard's first step in better itemization in regards to our retribution sets.
And tree... imo, if they're getting all the s3 SD out at once, it must mean they're planning to make us less dependant to it. Hopefully... well we'll see.
Since they're getting armor penetration all out, maybe there's no point in testing Executionner for rets (apart from the ohsosexy skin, of course)... any toughts?


Agonar: D'oh. Good point.

Cathmor: Yeah. Or that we're gonna have yet-another-talent in ret, giving SD from AP. Like your way better tough, we already have a lot of points to put in that tree.

Last edited by Meuble : 10/25/07 at 5:45 PM.
#330SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
And tree... imo, if they're getting all the s3 SD out at once, it must mean they're planning to make us less dependant to it. Hopefully... well we'll see.
Perhaps it's a sign that they'll be changing Judgement of Command to be affected by AP instead of spell damage...
#331SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
Im not sure how i have to understand this changes actually.

1) Does that mean they are removing the EXTRA spell dmg compared to Season2 gears to give more strength?

OR

2) Does that mean they are removing ALL the spell dmg from the season 3 set? Because if im not mistaken we can practically consider +spell dmg to be +armor penetration when using SoC.

Not sure about the good interpretation :\
Re-read the link, Drysc edited his post.


Originally Posted by Drysc
The season 3 retribution set has been changed. We're removing the Armor Penetration and Spell Damage that was being added to season 3, and moving those stat points into Strength. Those changes should be visible in an upcoming PTR build.

[ Post edited by Drysc ]
So S3 is losing 1 +dmg, if someone else's numbers were correct. = P
#332SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Forthright
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
JoC is spell hit.
Pretty sure that's a misquote, I don't recall making that comment.
#333SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
And I'm almost sure it's the same with WF. (My theory is that WF can proc SoC but it doesn't increase the number of SoC proc you're getting per minutes, there is no restriction for SoR).
For that to be true they'd have to change the proc chance per hit based on wether you have WF or not - and I doubt it happens. Then again I was surprised haste was changing the proc chances - does it happen also with other PPM mechanics in the game such as weapon enchants (where haste keeps same PPM / reduces proc chance per hit)?
#334SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
For that to be true they'd have to change the proc chance per hit based on wether you have WF or not - and I doubt it happens. Then again I was surprised haste was changing the proc chances - does it happen also with other PPM mechanics in the game such as weapon enchants (where haste keeps same PPM / reduces proc chance per hit)?
There was a change many patches ago that removed the ability of procs to proc off of each other.


It was causing something silly like
White hit -> Hand of Justice -> Sword Specialization -> Hand of Justice


I'd guess they did something similar to WF + SoC. (ie: The WF proc is flagged as a proc and not allowed to trigger SoC).


Can WF trigger other types of weapon procs? (Wound procs, Fiery, etc?)
#335SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rheyah
I don't mean to shit up the theorycraft thread but if Blizzard follow through on this logic and do, infact, shift Judgement of Command to be AP based by some degree then.. Well. About the only way this patch could be better is if it came with a foot massage, a handsome guy with a huge feather and a plate of strawberries.
#336SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
For that to be true they'd have to change the proc chance per hit based on wether you have WF or not - and I doubt it happens. Then again I was surprised haste was changing the proc chances - does it happen also with other PPM mechanics in the game such as weapon enchants (where haste keeps same PPM / reduces proc chance per hit)?
I stated that based on analysis of WWS logs ... usually, if you divide the number of SoC proc by the number of melee hits, you get low SoC procs % when the paladin has got WF. But if you substract the number of WF attacks to the number of melee hits and divide that by the number of SoC procs ... then you magically find the normal SoC proc % ...

For example :
WWS

white hits : 212 hits + 117 crits = 329 white hits
SoC procs : 68 hits + 46 crits = 114 SoC procs

% SoC procs : 34% ... a bit low no ?
76 WF attacks, so that's 283 normal hits

114 SoC procs for 283 normal hits would be around 40% ... seems better

Hoh well ... this is pure theorycrafting.
#337SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
galzohar
fiola's post seems to explain your WWS logs.
There was a change many patches ago that removed the ability of procs to proc off of each other.
So WF also loses power on a ret pally compared to other DPS classes, as like haste it only bossts your white damage, which is not as high of a % of your damage as the white damage of a rogue/warrior. All of these make it seem less and less likely for the paladin to actually get into the melee group, and would probably be treated like hunters and go into the leftover group and probably get just FI and/or trueshot and maybe shadow priest (if your raid has 3). That is unless you actually only bring 2 rogues, DPS warriors (+enhance shaman) as your entire melee dps aside from the ret paladin.

Last edited by galzohar : 10/25/07 at 8:30 PM.
#338SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Didnt they say that SoB procs off WF procs? That would contradict the proc from proc "rule"
#339SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Didnt they say that SoB procs off WF procs? That would contradict the proc from proc "rule"
We call SoR (and thus SoB) procs, but they're guaranteed. There's no weapon speed (that I know of) you can use where SoR or SoB will not proc.
#340SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Regarding WF+SoC. So it's definately confirmed that WF can't proc SoC? I alwasy thought (and coded) that WF could proc SoC providing the white hit that procced WF did not itself proc SoC. So you could only have 1 SoC per swing max. Would be good to get this confirmed to get the model calculation 100% correct.


Originally Posted by Rheyah View Post
I don't mean to shit up the theorycraft thread but if Blizzard follow through on this logic and do, infact, shift Judgement of Command to be AP based by some degree then.. Well. About the only way this patch could be better is if it came with a foot massage, a handsome guy with a huge feather and a plate of strawberries.
I hate to play devil's advocate but if such changes like a JoC change didn't go through, i would actually describe 2.3 as a disappointment (pops divine shield to grant immunity to flames).

Let me explain. I am very grateful of the changes that have gone through and think they are great, however when we look at the three main paldin changes that have occured in 2.3 they are:-

1) Increase in dps due to CS cooldown reduction.
2) Reduced threat
3) More stamina for prot paladins.

The CS change is simply an un-nerfing of an ability which should never have been nerfed and was simply a nerf as a result of major crying from others at an imbalance at 60. It's taken blizzard 8 months to rectify this.
The issues with threat and stamina are again something that are not new. Basic game theory mechanics meant these issues have always been around, it's just taken time for people to become more and more vocal about it. Threat and stamina should have been balanced at the start of TBC not 8 months in.

Now I don't mean to sound ungrateful, as such changes are welcome. Finally our class gets some of the fixes desperately needed. But really, these weren't exactly compicated game altering mechanics which would need a lot of time and effort to balance. They were pretty basic and long overdue.

Blizzard talked about extra utility (i recall a blessing and seal/judgement discussed at blizzcon which were quite nice) and about re-vamping the ret-abilities to be balanced around melee attributes with spell damage. Such changes would have taken more time, effort and resources.....and we have yet to see any of them appear.

So whilst it's nice to have these changes, i feel so far we've just been given quick, basic, obvious and long overdue fixeswith no real effort gone into the more complex class defining areas.

But that's just my two cents.
#341SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Blizzard talked about extra utility (i recall a blessing and seal/judgement discussed at blizzcon which were quite nice) and about re-vamping the ret-abilities to be balanced around melee attributes with spell damage. Such changes would have taken more time, effort and resources.....and we have yet to see any of them appear.
Well, I may have something up for the possible utility. But its way too early to speculate about it. One thing I can quarantee that they are fully aware of the utility problems, and I have my hopes up for something being fixed on that side. We will see how things evolve.
#342SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Looking at what Blizzard has said, I think they're planning on doing to Ret pallys in WotLK what they did to feral druids in TBC. In Vanilla ferals were one of the biggest joke specs in the game, then TBC came out and they became the best tanks in the game (by overbuffing) for a short time. In that time people went from "lawl feralz" to "LF tank bear preferred". In other words, by overbuffing the spec until it gained acceptance then reigning it back in they made feral druids accepted and even desired. I could see the same thing happen to ret pallys in WotLK. The devs have said they don't want to do any major class reviw patches anymore, so the logical place for an overhaul of an entire tree would have to be the next expansion. Thats just my 2 cents though.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
So WF also loses power on a ret pally compared to other DPS classes, as like haste it only bossts your white damage, which is not as high of a % of your damage as the white damage of a rogue/warrior. All of these make it seem less and less likely for the paladin to actually get into the melee group, and would probably be treated like hunters and go into the leftover group and probably get just FI and/or trueshot and maybe shadow priest (if your raid has 3). That is unless you actually only bring 2 rogues, DPS warriors (+enhance shaman) as your entire melee dps aside from the ret paladin.
White damage is still a decent majority of our damage. I can not fathom where people are getting all this "your melee attacks are nothing" notions. Ret pallys still gain a huge amount of DPS from windfury, and as a melee class is there a reason you would take them out of the melee group? Ferals get nothing from WF, running 3 rogues is just asking for trouble, and hunters are lackluster at best.
#343SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
White damage is still a decent majority of our damage. I can not fathom where people are getting all this "your melee attacks are nothing" notions. Ret pallys still gain a huge amount of DPS from windfury, and as a melee class is there a reason you would take them out of the melee group? Ferals get nothing from WF, running 3 rogues is just asking for trouble, and hunters are lackluster at best.
Random Illidan farming guild WWS example
Paladin
Windfury Attack 21
15 * Melee Average 1243
6 * Melee Crit Average 2843 (30%)
Damage 35703

Rogue
Windfury Attack 49
35 * Melee Average 447
14 * Melee Crit Average 975 (30%)
Damage 29295

Total difference: ~20%

Are there better ways to measure WF gains roughly? I mean, thats ~20% more damage gained from that 1 WF spot. I have checked multiple WWS logs and they all give similiar results. If you have Shaman + Warrior + 3 rogues and Retribution Paladin. Its no brainer to not let the Retri pala in the melee group to give +2% damage to whole group and get the WF.

Last edited by Cromfel : 10/25/07 at 9:59 PM.
#344SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Djardin
Thx a lot Bellator for the SoR spreasheet update
I played a bit with it and it seems kinda good. I noticed several things that seemed wrong:
- sanctified seals give +3% spell crits as well
- there is a flask giving +80 holy spell damage
- no idea why, but I had to remove the libram line because it was not working with OpenOffice, but I saw you didn't include libram of divine purpose, I'm getting the best results with this one on the PTR.

Some idea:
- would be nice to be able to pick up different rank of concecration, for example you can spam rank 1 in any group, but you need a shadow priest to spam max rank
- Would also be nice to see the details between seal DPS, judgement DPS for each seals because for the moment it's here only for SoC and I have no idea how accurate is your SoR DPS evaluation...

About the ret paladin spot in raids, it's kinda hard to defend putting a ret pala in the melee group, simply because they don't scale as good as a warrior or a rogue with attack power group buffs and their main buff is raid based and independant of their damage...

Just look at the WWS of Blood Legion (top raid DPS recorded on WWS in a lot of fights) and look at Grant's buffs ... he's often put in the same group than locks or hunters, if he's lucky he gets a resto shamy ...

Example of what I state :
Grant - WWS

Gurtogg Bloodboil kill ranked 2nd on WWS. Check Grant's buffs list ... Not even battle shout or a leader of the pack ...

I know that in my guild, it's exactly the same. When we run 3 rogues, no way the ret pala will get a spot with them in the melee DPS group. When we run 2, well ... getting a druid or hunter in this group is usually preferred because they benefits from some of the group buffs and gives more group damage than a ret pala ... (either +3% group damage or +5% melee crit) ...
#345SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Djardin View Post
I know that in my guild, it's exactly the same. When we run 3 rogues, no way the ret pala will get a spot with them in the melee DPS group. When we run 2, well ... getting a druid or hunter in this group is usually preferred because they benefits from some of the group buffs and gives more group damage than a ret pala ... (either +3% group damage or +5% melee crit) ...
Thats what happens all the time in pretty much everyguild. Thats the perception of WoW community about us. And its all up to Blizzard if they want to change that view. I have my hopes up that they are going to address the melee group viability in communitys eyes.
#346SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Interesting results, I suppose I underestimated the extra WF benefit due to the fact it only affects main hand while for the paladin it affects a 2h weapon.
Are there better ways to measure WF gains roughly?
Well I suppose an actual spreadsheet to calculate that and match the WWS logs would seal the deal regarding the paladin's spot in the melee group. Making sure the rogue and paladin are equally geared though would be quite difficult but not really impossible.
#347SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Interesting results, I suppose I underestimated the extra WF benefit due to the fact it only affects main hand while for the paladin it affects a 2h weapon.

Well I suppose an actual spreadsheet to calculate that and match the WWS logs would seal the deal regarding the paladin's spot in the melee group. Making sure the rogue and paladin are equally geared though would be quite difficult but not really impossible.
For some reason I seem to score a lot more damage than Ed, so I did the same test comparing our rogues to my own WF procs. I know Ed havent gemmed hes gear properly, but still hes got T6 and I have only full T5 on the WWS log.

My own guilds WWS example

Paladin
Windfury Attack 16
11 * Melee Average 1468
5 * Melee Crit Average 3206 (30%)
Damage 32178

Rogue #1
Windfury Attack 30
21 * Melee Average 489
9 * Melee Crit Average 1092 (30%)
Damage 20097

Total difference: ~60%

Rogue #2
Windfury Attack 26
18 * Melee Average 379
8 * Melee Crit Average 766 (30%)
Damage 12950

Total difference: ~150%

Did I completely miss something obvious, or are those numbers really that much in favor of paladin? Im even personally confused of the numbers. Am I doing something wrong? We all were in combat same duration dealing damage. These were our top 2 rogues.

Last edited by Cromfel : 10/25/07 at 10:06 PM.
#348SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Bliss
Well, part of that is you are counting the average melee damage for the rogues, where you actually want average mainhand damage. A fast offhand is lowering their average melee hit by a very large amount combined with 75% offhand damage.

EDIT: For an accurate mainhand damage you could backtrack from their average sinister strike, subtracting the base damage and added damage from talents. You would also have to add in glancing blows.

Last edited by Bliss : 10/25/07 at 10:50 PM.
#349SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hrym
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Here is the new Paladin dps spreadsheet version 1.8. Read the last few pages of the thread to see what has been added to it:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com
every time when i click on "Show Detail", "Strength Gems" or "Correct Gems" i get the following error message & nothing happens:

"Laufzeitfehler '1004'

Die Methode 'Range' für das Objekt '_Global' ist fehlgeschlagen"

which means

"the method 'Range' for object '_Global' has failed"

when i press debug button after clicking "Show Detail" it marks the following line:

Public Sub Expand()

Dim CurCell As Object

    Range(Names("MyEnchants")).EntireRow.Hidden = False
    
    For Each CurCell In Range(Names("MyGems"))
        If CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "m" Then

when i press the other two buttons it also allways fails at the specific Range command...

i'm using excel 2002 sp 3
#350SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Veritas17
Haste. How will haste benefit us overall? I'm more curious at that.

I have the swiftsteel shoulders and will get the swiftsteel bracers probably next week if im not getting anything for my shaman (the guilds only enhancement shaman).

You know, im really trying to figure out why i'm bothering gearing this guy up as much as I am knowing i'm never going to get into a raid as ret lol. With me being the only enhancement shaman I don't get windfury unless i'm there as him so... yeah. Why the hell am I doing this to myself?
#351SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Warpony
Haste is less desireable then previously since they balanced it.

Personally i have my Torch, and will prolly not bother with anymore haste items. The only other piece i'd consider would be the mail bracers, but going from Furious Shackles i'd gain/loose:

-17ap
-10 crit rating
-16 stam
+27 haste
+16 int

Dunno if that's rly viable. I'm a tad to lazy to get the spreadsheet working and do the proper math.
#352SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
I'd go the other way, and consider getting rid of Prot talent points as soon as I have enough +hit on my gear. Getting 3% hit is just too expensive for 8 points (though I guess me being a SoB/JoB user influences that).
#353SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Meuble
Valerys: I did think about that myself too. Considering we're getting 3 hit point in the new ret talent, is Precision still worth it 8 points? Not so sure about it...

About Executionner: WWS doesn't seem to like my french version of the game. After losing about 15mns to find out why my pal with savagery had more AP then the one with Exec, I've decided that it was time to grab some sleep and to try it later. So if anyone got a way to use french combat logs, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll get an english version of the PTR for the we.

Sanctified seals: Increase melee and spell hit by 3% + indispellable sceals... I'm gonna check again, you're making me doubt :o
Edit: Nvm, it's 3 crit, my bad.

Last edited by Meuble : 10/26/07 at 5:50 AM.
#354SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Valerys: I did think about that myself too. Considering we're getting 3 hit point in the new ret talent, is Precision still worth it 8 points? Not so sure about it...
Hmm, which ret talent is that?

Regardless, at a certain point with BT/Hyjal plate gear you will get more than enough +hit to hit the cap without Precision. And there's always Surefooted/+hit gems if you really need to.
#355SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Hmm, which ret talent is that?

Regardless, at a certain point with BT/Hyjal plate gear you will get more than enough +hit to hit the cap without Precision. And there's always Surefooted/+hit gems if you really need to.
The 3% spell hit from Precision will still help your JoComm, though. Unless you completely ignore your JoComm damage, you'll probably want that talent still to help you land your Judgments.
#356SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
If I can get hitcapped without Precision, it opens up the door to better PVP talents, which means better arena gear like S3 gloves sooner rather than later. And I'm all for that.
#357SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nubs
Originally Posted by Nicolai View Post
If I can get hitcapped without Precision, it opens up the door to better PVP talents, which means better arena gear like S3 gloves sooner rather than later. And I'm all for that.
From the previous thread dedicated to paladin retribution dps, and this one now, I believe our main focus has been retribution in a pve environment.

But in a pvp environment remember that hit cap is much lower and to reach hit cap you could quite easily just use some +hit rings or necks, and if more is still needed throw a gem or two in.
#358SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nicolai
Originally Posted by Nubs View Post
From the previous thread dedicated to paladin retribution dps, and this one now, I believe our main focus has been retribution in a pve environment.

But in a pvp environment remember that hit cap is much lower and to reach hit cap you could quite easily just use some +hit rings or necks, and if more is still needed throw a gem or two in.
I absolutely agree. I wasn't trying to suggest a PVP ret build, but rather that some of the best PVE ret gear we can get (or at least get easier than in some raids) is arena gear. The upcoming S3 gloves come to mind.
#359SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Since freeing those 8 points doesn't really up your DPS, I wouldn't rush into capping hit without precision, and replace hit gear with whatever whenever it would increase DPS, even if it means trading a lot of hit rating for very little str/crit. Of course I'm not sure if such tradeoffs are even possible at every gear level but they should definitely be done when it is possible, rather than getting more hit and freeing those points that have no other use anyway.
#360SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nubs
Originally Posted by Nicolai View Post
I absolutely agree. I wasn't trying to suggest a PVP ret build, but rather that some of the best PVE ret gear we can get (or at least get easier than in some raids) is arena gear. The upcoming S3 gloves come to mind.
I agree about the S3 gloves. An additional 5% damage on Crusader Strike over time will add up. However In the same breathe I can also say that I would be hard pressed to stop using Pillager's Gauntlets for S3. Now baring in mind that not everyone has BT or Hyjal gear available to them season 3 gloves will probably be the best upgrade available for quite a few ret paladins.
#361SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
I actually expect the s3 gloves will math out to be superior to silent justice or the pillager's gloves.

My original plan was to use t6 gloves and shoulders to get the 2pc, now I need to pick another slot for the 2pc.
#362SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
I actually expect the s3 gloves will math out to be superior to silent justice or the pillager's gloves.

My original plan was to use t6 gloves and shoulders to get the 2pc, now I need to pick another slot for the 2pc.
We should probably make a new thread for ret itemizing and leave this one for DPS skill cycle/useage discussion. If anyone wants to start a new thread discussing the best bang for your buck in each armor slot, I'm glad to troll that one too.
#363SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Habaka
What really bothers me is...

Well I think it kinda has been asked already, but proper answer not given.

As a BE paladin I use SoB, and seeing how it procs with every hit, shouldnt haste scale way better than STR... or atleast start to scale once you stack enough of it.

I dont really know how the math goes, but just thinking it like this, feels something is wrong with it, anyone care to enlighten me on this?

Edit: Urrr, Duh... How silly of me, must have been a blackout of somekind, edited the key word in there now xD

Last edited by Habaka : 10/26/07 at 4:17 PM.
#364SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nubs
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
What really bothers me is...

Well I think it kinda has been asked already, but proper answer not given.

As a BE paladin I use SoB, and seeing how it procs with every hit, shouldnt it scale way better than STR... or atleast start to scale once you stack enough of it.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but what are you asking here? What should scale better than STR?
#365SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
AFAIK the concensus of haste only being good when stacked is totally wrong. If anything, the first points of haste give the biggest benefit, just like the first %s of crit do. Of course adding 2% crit doesn't really change (noticeably) the value of extra crit, and same goes for haste.
I don't see any reason why haste would only be a good stat if you have a certain amount - either it's good or it isn't.

The only situation I can see where haste is only good after a certain amount is if the haste makes you use a different rotation that doesn't work without it, like the 1.5s (or close to it) cast time on holy light making flash of light not needed, but if you don't have enough haste you still use flash of light in which case haste is wasted. But of course this will not be valid in 2.3 anyway so it's back to "if haste is good, there is no reason for it to be any better when you stack it".
#366SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
AFAIK the concensus of haste only being good when stacked is totally wrong. If anything, the first points of haste give the biggest benefit, just like the first %s of crit do. Of course adding 2% crit doesn't really change (noticeably) the value of extra crit, and same goes for haste.
I don't see any reason why haste would only be a good stat if you have a certain amount - either it's good or it isn't.

The only situation I can see where haste is only good after a certain amount is if the haste makes you use a different rotation that doesn't work without it, like the 1.5s (or close to it) cast time on holy light making flash of light not needed, but if you don't have enough haste you still use flash of light in which case haste is wasted. But of course this will not be valid in 2.3 anyway so it's back to "if haste is good, there is no reason for it to be any better when you stack it".
The argument is whether haste is good for an alliance paladin. As it is right now alliance and horde pallys have two completely different systems of doing damage, and the horde version favors haste as a primary stat whereas the alliance one put it into the "nice to have but not great" pile.

As for "only getting a few points of haste", you sadly do need to stack it in order to see noticeable results. A 2% haste on your typical 3.8 speed weapon only decreases your swing time by .62 seconds. You need much larger amounts of haste to really make an large impact on your DPS.

Oh, and ret pallys don't use spell haste.
#367SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Habaka
So basically what I mean I guess is, that let's say you could get as much haste as to double your attack speed... which you probably cant, but for the sake of an example.

Wouldnt that make your str scale way high with Seal like SoB? Or would it just be too expencive on the item budjet, since haste doesnt scale with Crusader strike at all? :o

So after reaching certain ammount of haste and holding it there, it would increase strengths potential?
#368SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
...
As a BE paladin I use SoB, and seeing how it procs with every hit, shouldnt haste scale way better than STR... or atleast start to scale once you stack enough of it.
...
I was refering to that. But then again maybe "it" refered to str? Anyway I've seen more than once people say haste is only good if you stack it, which I think is conceptually wrong.

Regarding how good it is, gogo spreadsheets?


As for stats scaling differently as your stats change: While increasing, for example, haste, will increase the DPS increase of STR and vice-versa, you'll need a huge change in a stat to really change how well the other stat scales. There are very few examples I've seen in the theorycraft threads on these forums where 1 stat actually becomes better than another per item-budget point after you change your stats (to something achieveable, if haste becomes better once you have 5000 str, for example, you can say it's never better).
#369SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
In terms of dps increase you are right in saying haste doesnt provide additional benefit if stacks. But also, there is no larger quantitative increase in dps from the first few points spent (same goes for crit). The relationship between haste/crit and quantitative dps increase is linear.

And since a paladins dps rotation is based around instant cast spell cooldowns which are not effected by haste there will be no improved rotation emerging from stacking haste.
#370SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
The quantity of the DPS per haste (or crit) doesn't change when you add more, but the relative DPS increase does.
There are really 2 ways to look at it:
1. Getting more haste makes other stats better for quantitive DPS increase but keeps haste the same.
2. Getting more haste reduces the relative effect of additional haste but keeps the relative effect of other stats the same.
Both ways are 100% correct.
#371SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Meuble
Hey again! Finally got an english version. However, atm, I'm not quite sure that my modus operandi for testing really is good. I was thinking about making a LOT of series of 5mn of bashing those blasted lands mobs with each enchant, and to see what I could get out of it... But then it stroke me: If instant attacks increase proc chance, testing with only flat white attack dmg might put savagery on the upper hand...

Sooo.. is it proved, definitly sure, that instant attacks do not increase proc chance? And that SoC and/or SoR won't do that as well?

I've seen different answers regarding this, but nothing that would let me think it was for granted.
#372SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
So basically what I mean I guess is, that let's say you could get as much haste as to double your attack speed... which you probably cant, but for the sake of an example.

Wouldnt that make your str scale way high with Seal like SoB? Or would it just be too expencive on the item budjet, since haste doesnt scale with Crusader strike at all? :o

So after reaching certain ammount of haste and holding it there, it would increase strengths potential?
The theoretical answer to this question is yes there will be a minimum haste rating (based on AP) which a person should have in order to maximise there dps output.

To go into slight detail. For both Crit and haste as examples, since an increase in these stats increases the value of strength there will be a time when increasing the crit/haste value by 1 itemisation point is of greater worth than increasing the the strength stat. As strength gets higher the optimal value of crit/haste will increase.

Such an effect can be modeled, and a graph of AP to minimal Crit/Haste rating can be plotted. This is something i have done (though not included in the published model).

On the crit side of things, assuming things like vengeance were always up regardless of crit, then it would show that there is no benefit (dps wise) of raising crit above 0 until your buffed AP is in the 2000-2500 mark. With haste, it shows that haste is not worth increasing past 0 until the AP is in the region of 5000-5500. From that point on there is an ever increasing amount of haste that one should have to optimise dps.

So yes, to re-answer your question, yes there is a level of haste rating that one should have in order to optimise dps, however until AP is past the 5k mark, this level sits at 0.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I was refering to that. But then again maybe "it" refered to str? Anyway I've seen more than once people say haste is only good if you stack it, which I think is conceptually wrong.

Regarding how good it is, gogo spreadsheets?
My spreadsheet already shows this :p
#373SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Hey again! Finally got an english version. However, atm, I'm not quite sure that my modus operandi for testing really is good. I was thinking about making a LOT of series of 5mn of bashing those blasted lands mobs with each enchant, and to see what I could get out of it... But then it stroke me: If instant attacks increase proc chance, testing with only flat white attack dmg might put savagery on the upper hand...

Sooo.. is it proved, definitly sure, that instant attacks do not increase proc chance? And that SoC and/or SoR won't do that as well?

I've seen different answers regarding this, but nothing that would let me think it was for granted.
There seems to be a mixture of issues here.

SoC is based off the hasted weapon speed and thus haste decreased proc chance and leaves PPM the same. Instants can not proc SoC.

Enchants like mongoose have a proc based off the hasted weapon speeds, thus haste reduced proc chance and thus leaves ppm the same (based on white attacks). However since instants can proc the enchants, the ppm when using white + instants will be greater than using white alone.

If you want to bash on a mob for half an hour with different enchants using white attacks to gett the base PPM it would be useful (unless someone can tell me exactly what they are for each weapon)
#374SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Habaka
Alright, Cheers Bellator...

Eventhough you didint give me any math on the matter, I understood your point and it does seem logical.

I guess my best move would be to slap my Red Belt of Battle back on and try to get the Gloves that drop from Akama, with 2 sockets (the name slips my mind) and replace my pillager gloves along with my band of Devastation... Since I dont think I'd reach 5k AP anytime soon :>

According to your Spreadseet, I'd run with 4k AP with raid buffs, guess I'm still some 1k off, meh! :P

Brute strength prevails yet again! Go STR!
#375SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Meuble
However since instants can proc the enchants, the ppm when using white + instants will be greater than using white alone.
Damn.
The point was: won't savagery be advantaged against proc-based enchants if I don't use CS every second. If what you're saying there is true well, I think I have to spam CS to compare those enchant properly.

And what I was saying regarding SoC / SoR was: Can they make proc-based enchants proc?
#376SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
Alright, Cheers Bellator...

Eventhough you didint give me any math on the matter, I understood your point and it does seem logical.

I guess my best move would be to slap my Red Belt of Battle back on and try to get the Gloves that drop from Akama, with 2 sockets (the name slips my mind) and replace my pillager gloves along with my band of Devastation... Since I dont think I'd reach 5k AP anytime soon :>

According to your Spreadseet, I'd run with 4k AP with raid buffs, guess I'm still some 1k off, meh! :P

Brute strength prevails yet again! Go STR!
Two quick points:-

1) Maths wise. (apologies if this seems patronising, it's not intended)

Lets assume AP is 0 and Haste Rating is 0.
In terms of itemisation 2 AP = 1 Haste rating.

So if we increase AP by 2 we see 0.5 dps increase. and increasing Haste rating by 1 will see 0.1 dps increase. Thus you would go for 2 AP.

However, now we are at 2AP and 0H. Another 2 AP will give 0.5 dps increase, but 1 Haste rating will show a 0.2 dps increase. Again we take the AP

Continuing to increase AP keeps the dps gain from additional AP the same but increases the dps gain from Haste until the point when we are at for example 10 AP and 0 Haste where 2 more AP will increase dps by 0.5 but 1 Haste will increase dps by 0.6, so we get the 1 haste

Increasing the value of haste increases the dps contribution of AP, so then we keep taking AP until haste is again the better option, then we take haste, then more AP etc etc.

The numbers are of course all make believe, but iy gives you the gist maths wise.


2) Whilst in this instance i would agree that grips of silent justice (akama gloves) are better than pillagers, don't avoid items simply because they have haste. A poorly itemised item with strength as the primary stat can still be worse than a well itemised item with haste as the primary stat.
#377SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Damn.
The point was: won't savagery be advantaged against proc-based enchants if I don't use CS every second. If what you're saying there is true well, I think I have to spam CS to compare those enchant properly.

And what I was saying regarding SoC / SoR was: Can they make proc-based enchants proc?
In terms of testing proc based enchants on low level mobs, it's far better just to use white attacks than spam instants as well. The reason being if we can work out the base auto-attack ppp, it is then quite simple to calculate effective ppm against raid bosses. If you get a ppm using white and CS you first have to calculate what the base ppm was and then work out the effective ppm against bosses.

I don't believe SoC/SoR can make proc based enchants proc.
#378SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Damn.
The point was: won't savagery be advantaged against proc-based enchants if I don't use CS every second. If what you're saying there is true well, I think I have to spam CS to compare those enchant properly.

And what I was saying regarding SoC / SoR was: Can they make proc-based enchants proc?
I can confirm SoC and JoC proc mongoose.
#379SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
...

And what I was saying regarding SoC / SoR was: Can they make proc-based enchants proc?
SoC should have the ability to proc weapon enchants. (It's a tad hard to test, but I recall seeing screenshots of double fiery procs to prove it)


SoR was changed to not proc enchants a patch or two ago. (see patch notes)

SoR used to get double procs from the Hakkari Manslayer (instant drain life), but if it does now, that'd be a bug. (I also put that AoE fire enchant from Badlands on the Manslayer - was rather amusing to see lotsa little numbers and to break sheep)
#380SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
From what i've read on mongoose the following appear to be true:-

A) Mongoose has a base proc rate from auto attack of about 1ppm
B) Proc % of Mongoose is based on hasted speed so that the ppm from autoattacks stay at 1ppm.
C) Mongoose can proc from SoC/JoC/Cs/(WF?)

Modelling it into my ret-model shows two things:-

1) Mongoose is probably better than savegry

and quite shockingly,

2) Haste rating has a negative effect on Mongoose.

To elaborate on 1, the proc chance of mongoose is calculated by 1/(60/Weapon Speed). After all other attacks that can proc mongoose, with tier 5ish gear against level 73 mob, this will in effect produce about 2.4ppm. The average effect would thus increase dps more than savegery (will try to include it in next version of spreadsheet)

To elaborate on 2, the proc rate decreases as haste increases. Since haste increases number of autoattacks then in terms of autoattacking, the ppm is the same. But since SoC/JoC/Cs are not effected by haste by lowering the proc rate of mongoose lowers the number of procs from these abilities. Thus haste actually decreases the dps gain from mongoose. Will make sure to model this as well.
#381SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
...

2) Haste rating has a negative effect on Mongoose.

To elaborate on 1, the proc chance of mongoose is calculated by 1/(60/Weapon Speed). After all other attacks that can proc mongoose, with tier 5ish gear against level 73 mob, this will in effect produce about 2.4ppm. The average effect would thus increase dps more than savegery (will try to include it in next version of spreadsheet)

To elaborate on 2, the proc rate decreases as haste increases. Since haste increases number of autoattacks then in terms of autoattacking, the ppm is the same. But since SoC/JoC/Cs are not effected by haste by lowering the proc rate of mongoose lowers the number of procs from these abilities. Thus haste actually decreases the dps gain from mongoose. Will make sure to model this as well.
If we assume that CS/JoC/SoC use the hasted proc rate instead of the unhasted proc rate.


Didn't a rogue in the PPM thread test that ... ?
#382SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
bellator
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
If we assume that CS/JoC/SoC use the hasted proc rate instead of the unhasted proc rate.


Didn't a rogue in the PPM thread test that ... ?
I never followed that thread in depth, just read the cliff notes, but it's worth checking out. So it could be possible that the proc % of these enchants is different for white and instant attacks. Would make sense.

Edit: Looking at the proc post it does appear that proc change for instant attacks is based off base weapon speed not hasted weapon speed.

Last edited by bellator : 10/26/07 at 8:56 PM.
#383SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
While we are on the subject of PPM. I would really like to get the base PPM of the following nailed down for the model:-

Dragonspine Trophy
Madness of the Betrayer
Band of the Eternal Champion
World Breaker

I plan to model all of these as 1ppm with chance to proc off SoC/JoC/CS/WF

Any information to get more accurate figures would be appreciated
#384SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Just don't forget the cooldowns on those trinkets.
#385SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Just don't forget the cooldowns on those trinkets.
I do those trinkets definately have hidden cooldowns? And if so what are they? I know Tsunami Talisman has a hidden cooldown but i wasnt aware of cooldowns on those two
#386SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
I'm not sure about those specific trinkets but almost any trinket I actually did look at had a cooldown, and most of them (with any significant proc) had 45s cooldown. Worth testing, but if you just want to put them in until you get more data I would guess 45s cooldown after a proc.
#387SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I do those trinkets definately have hidden cooldowns? And if so what are they? I know Tsunami Talisman has a hidden cooldown but i wasnt aware of cooldowns on those two
I found this thread:-

Procs with/without internal cooldowns

Will use the info in there for modelling purposes
#388SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Veritas17
Ya know, my question about haste was relating to a BE paladin using SoB to dps with. I'd assume that swinging faster doesn't hurt a sob pally at all and would increase said dps.

This is true, no?
#389SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
1 picture tells more than thousand words?

#390SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
1 picture tells more than thousand words?

<snip>
Am I reading that right? It looks like Blood didn't have a miss % chance, meaning its based of melee hit? Or am I crazy?
#391SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Am I reading that right? It looks like Blood didn't have a miss % chance, meaning its based of melee hit? Or am I crazy?
No you are not crazy, it is indeed melee hit based, unlike our very own talent in DPS tree that is spell hit based.
#392SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Sapp
Seal of Sacrifice please.

That's seriously quite obscene. Including the windfury interaction and straight-up more damage from the seal effect, what does that put Blood at now? 10-15% more damage than command, straight up?

Last edited by Sapp : 10/27/07 at 3:41 AM.
#393SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
I just finished almost an hour of testing:

With a larger pool size, I'd estimate around 15% proc chance (which is significantly higher than the 6% it was when I first got over 5,000 swings on 2.2 PTR ).
With a 15% change to proc, it's about equal to 135 crit rating.
The thing about World Breaker proc is you get a flat 900 crit rating added to your character sheet, so any attacks within the period of Gaining and Losing the proc get the added chance to crit. Having SoC/White/CS/JoCom all crit with Avenging Wrath up is pretty sexy.
#394SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Well, it tries to remove itself on the first attack executed, but if Command procs, both the white swing and the command swing will get the crit bonus before it removes itself due to the functionally simultaneous nature of the calculation for the procced swing.

It's quite a nice smasher. :O
#395SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
I just finished almost an hour of testing:

With a larger pool size, I'd estimate around 15% proc chance (which is significantly higher than the 6% it was when I first got over 5,000 swings on 2.2 PTR ).
With a 15% change to proc, it's about equal to 135 crit rating.
The thing about World Breaker proc is you get a flat 900 crit rating added to your character sheet, so any attacks within the period of Gaining and Losing the proc get the added chance to crit. Having SoC/White/CS/JoCom all crit with Avenging Wrath up is pretty sexy.
Are you saying that the 4 second buff doesnt fade on next attack, and that any attack made in 4 seconds will have 900 crit?

Also was this just from white attacks or were you using SoC/JoC/CS to get procs etc?
#396SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Twinky
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
No you are not crazy, it is indeed melee hit based, unlike our very own talent in DPS tree that is spell hit based.
I'm not even sure if it's hit based, I'm not hit capped by ~4% and I'm almost certain I'm yet to see a SoB judgement 'miss'. It's great For Leo after a WW or demon ~> human form.

To see those numbers will make 2.3 Ret interesting, I'm sorry that alliance are kinda boned atm atleast, but hopefully blizz will notice this and give SoC the love it needs.

Edit: Actually knowing them, they'll likely just screw SoB up.
#397SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Twinky
Originally Posted by Veritas17 View Post
Ya know, my question about haste was relating to a BE paladin using SoB to dps with. I'd assume that swinging faster doesn't hurt a sob pally at all and would increase said dps.

This is true, no?
Seeing as SoB isn't a proc rate, but a constant % of weapon damage it is completely indipendant of weapon speed in terms of it's benefit (as in no normalization) so, I would imagine the faster you swing the more DPS you'll be doing in relation to SoB.
#398SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Eledorian
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Are you saying that the 4 second buff doesnt fade on next attack, and that any attack made in 4 seconds will have 900 crit?

Also was this just from white attacks or were you using SoC/JoC/CS to get procs etc?

It's only for one attack. I had a big WWS sample but it dissapeared cause I don't have an account.

The buff lasts 4 seconds and fades after you attack.
#399SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 frmorrison
I know Seal of Blood is better than SoC, but is the damage of SoB a burden to healers?

Already there is a lot of splash damage, plus Warlocks need to Life Tap in order to deal damage, so I don't know if one extra healing burden is all that great.
#400SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Strifen
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I know Seal of Blood is better than SoC, but is the damage of SoB a burden to healers?

Already there is a lot of splash damage, plus Warlocks need to Life Tap in order to deal damage, so I don't know if one extra healing burden is all that great.
Not at all. It's really minimal and if light is judged on the mob you can barley tell your hp is going down. If you bring resto shaman you will get hit with a CH jump here and there and that alone will cover it.
#401SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Are you saying that the 4 second buff doesnt fade on next attack, and that any attack made in 4 seconds will have 900 crit?

Also was this just from white attacks or were you using SoC/JoC/CS to get procs etc?
From what I could tell, World Breaker has a flat chance to proc from White, SoC, JoC, and CS.

The buff still fades, but you can get extra attacks in before it does.
#402SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Meuble
Ok, I FINALLY managed to get a proper and running english version of the ptr, I'll start gathering data asap.

However, I'm less and less convinced about the utility of gathering flat white auto attacks to compare the 3 enchants, since the proc-based ones can proc of JoC and SoC (that's quite crazy btw).
Stop me from wrong, but considering this, it really looks like Savagery would be advantaged by the fact that I will just auto attack... Unless it's granted that Mongooze and Exec are ppm and will not proc, no matter what, more than X times in a minut. Wich I don't believe to be true.

Anyway, starting tests with savagery / exec. Mongooze might have to wait a bit.
#403SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Yes, ofc savagery will be advantaged over mongoose if you just use aute attack, but by using auto-attack alone to gather data it allows you to gather a base ppm of mongoose etc from which you can then calculate effective ppm/uptime/dps increase in any circumctance.

If would ofc be worth checking to see if mongoose/executioner can proc from SoC/JoC/CS/WF etc
#404SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3kervi
Has anyone tested +40spelldmg, or am I just so unfamiliar with retribution spec that it seems possible enchant for me?
#405SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by kervi View Post
Has anyone tested +40spelldmg, or am I just so unfamiliar with retribution spec that it seems possible enchant for me?
compared to AP, +dmg has a very small effect on dps. Thus savagery beats +40spelldmg enchant hands down.
#406SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Ok, so I've actually got 2 different questions, though they are both about CS.

1) I can't remember if this was covered earlier in the thread or not, and I tried looking for it to double-check before posting this, but couldn't find it. If you're using SoR, does CS proc SoR? Seeing as how SoR is a 100% "proc" rate, would CS include a SoR proc?

and

2) Say you have the Battlemaster enchant on your weapon, which is a chance on hit to heal you and your party for roughly 200-400 damage (not sure on the actual numbers, sorry), would CS proc that enchant?
#407SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
Ok, so I've actually got 2 different questions, though they are both about CS.

1) I can't remember if this was covered earlier in the thread or not, and I tried looking for it to double-check before posting this, but couldn't find it. If you're using SoR, does CS proc SoR? Seeing as how SoR is a 100% "proc" rate, would CS include a SoR proc?

and

2) Say you have the Battlemaster enchant on your weapon, which is a chance on hit to heal you and your party for roughly 200-400 damage (not sure on the actual numbers, sorry), would CS proc that enchant?

CS will proc battlemaster, it wont proc SoR
#408SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Habaka
So I just got this link from my brother, so I dont really know the source, but it does look pretty damn sweet, hopefully it's actually true too.

Too tired to ask / check, so I'll just post the link here and head to bed.

New stats on the S3 set;
IMAGE DUMP
#409SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
I can confirm the change, Im currently at EU PTR.
#410SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Osse
Is it just me or did they nerf the parts that had armor penetration? I mean.. 13 str vs 84 penetration & 23 spell dmg for example.
#411SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Is it just me or did they nerf the parts that had armor penetration? I mean.. 13 str vs 84 penetration & 23 spell dmg for example.
Sigurd
We lost about 150 Item Points in SpellDmg/ArmorPen for 82 Item Points of Strength.
Interesting.
We will most likely see some conversion talent soon. It would be rather odd to see your gear giving you zero improvement to JoC for example.
#412SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
So I just got this link from my brother, so I dont really know the source, but it does look pretty damn sweet, hopefully it's actually true too.

Too tired to ask / check, so I'll just post the link here and head to bed.

New stats on the S3 set;
IMAGE DUMP
Woah, they removed all the spell damage? I thought they were just reverting the SD back to how much was on the Season 2 gear.

This must either mean we're getting free damage or they haven't fully itemized the new season 3 set. It should be interesting to see how this pans out.
#413SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Since we already know str is better use of itemization points than spell damage, so this can only have good impacts unless you're also trying to heal. Who cares if the judgement does less damage if overall DPS is increased? If anything we lose less DPS for being oom.
#414SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rheyah
Something is going to change for paladins at a very low level I believe. Blizzard want us using Judgements - that much is clear from their itemization for us, as they consider them the defining attack of the class. I would say put your theorycraft on hold for a while because I don't think it's going to be relevant soon.
#415SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Putting these revised items into the spreadsheet. In terms of dps, the gloves and chest are increased. The gloves still being the best in game, and the chest being best in game if you are already hit capped. The other 3 pieces show a minor reduction in dps or no change compared to the old S3 and land themselves around low end tier 5 level.

But as has been said, this does seem to suggest two possible changes are on the way:-
1) Some sort of conversion as cromfel suggested
2) Re-itemisation of pve gear in a similar vein to S3 gear (since if 1) is true any +dmg plate is useless compared to str)

However, and i hate to say this but if they did give us the shaman mental quickness ability which seems the easiest and thus most likely option i feel it would be a mistake.

I put mental quickness into my model and it showed (for gear ranging from blues to top end tier6) a close to 20% dps increase. Combined with the dps increase we have already seen this will mean a dps increase from 2.2->2.3 of about 36-37%.

Looking at something like Wow Web Stats which is probably the max a paladin can do atm adding 36% to his dps would put him fighting with the rogues etc for top dps. You could almost justify his place in the raid without utility. Whilst i'd absolutely love this, i do feel i would be a little unbalancing
#416SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Teer
Speaking of which, Bellator you don't have a page or so where you post your spreadsheets? Using v17 and don't know if it's the last
#417SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
Speaking of which, Bellator you don't have a page or so where you post your spreadsheets? Using v17 and don't know if it's the last
I just use this thread to host the file (to avoid too many paladin threads). It's hosted in the first post by cromfel, but i see it is a little out of date. Latest version is 18 which can be found:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Cromfel, mind updating your original post with this. Cheers.
#418SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Its updated now. Just give me PM or post here with request to update and I will edit the OP asap.
#419SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anarkii
I've seen Bellator mention it somewhere in the thread, but it'll be good if you can update the OP with relative stat weights/AEP(I know it depends on gear, but a ballpark estimate) for Horde and Alliance paladins.
#420SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
The removal of spell damage from Arena S3 gear makes me reconsider my two points in Imp. Judgement. I guess I could end up fitting a few points of PoJ in my build after all!
#421SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Meuble
I think it's too early to think like that Prepared. That change won't go (imho at least) without a change to our template or globally our SD dependancy. Wait and see!
#422SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
You could almost justify his place in the raid without utility. Whilst i'd absolutely love this, i do feel i would be a little unbalancing
Try checking it with a slightly lower conversion ratio, maybe 15% or 20%.
#423SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Agrippina
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
I think it's too early to think like that Prepared. That change won't go (imho at least) without a change to our template or globally our SD dependancy. Wait and see!
exciting!
#424SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Siral
Today in guild we have a discussion about the best end game 2h for a ret pally..

Cataclysm edge or Torch of the damned?
#425SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3_Retribute_
Torch of the damned would probably be better because armor ignorance only affects a portion of our damage.
#426SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Checking Bellator's spreadsheet (after fixing CS Normalization) Cataclysm's Edge looks to outperform Torch by a very slight margin.
So in reality, it's mainly aesthetics - in which case Torch wins.
#427SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
I thought the latest version (v18) had normalised CS is in it.

But anyway, the model does indeed suggest for SoB the cataclysm is the best, and for SoC the torch is the best. But its only marginal in both cases.
#428SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Siral View Post
Today in guild we have a discussion about the best end game 2h for a ret pally.. Cataclysm edge or Torch of the damned?
Whichever has drops more often for your guild.. which may turn out to be S3 weapons :/
#429SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The gloves still being the best in game, and the chest being best in game if you are already hit capped.
I'm actually not sure that's true about the chest, even if you're hit capped (though given current itemization, every bit of +hit is great to open up different ring/neck choices etc).

S3: +9 Crit rating
T6: +41 Spelldamage, (+9 Hit rating)


This is including socket bonuses btw, both chests have the same amount of Str.

Sure Spelldamage isn't the top dog stat, but at least for an alliance paladin, 41 more spelldamage is quiet a lot.


I'm still not sure what to make of the S3 set. With no spelldamage, CS is reduced and the coveted "armor unmitigated" holy portion of our damage is nerfed.

Unless they make a significant low level change to our mechanics or benefit from stats as some people have already mentioned, this is not good.

And if they do, I hope they retroactively do these changes to current PvE gear (similar to the change to our Judgement set when 1.9 hit and they came up with all that spelldamage crap).


I've compared T6 and the S3 sets and at least for PvE I'm definitely staying with my T6 set, it's far superior for PvE as it should be.


On an amusing side note, a pic of my log from an Archimonde fight:



32k damage (exactly 31947) burst in 7 seconds! Thank god for the upcoming threat reduction..
#430SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
32k damage (exactly 31947) burst in 7 seconds! Thank god for the upcoming threat reduction..
Just out of curiosity how did your tank retain aggro after that? Your TPS numbers might have been a new record.
#431SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Locazo
I'll probably be going ret with my paladin in 2.3 thanks to the threat reduction. A couple of quick questions since I can't use the spreadsheet (OpenOffice):

Is the tier 6 2 piece bonus worth picking up? If so, which 2 pieces? I can grab any 2 pieces I want so I'm just concerned with which ones are the best if the bonus is indeed worth getting.
#432SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3SomeoneRandom
Well, just going off of the spreadsheet... under the "best of the best" setup, only the Lightbringer Chestpeice is being used, so I would be under the assumption that the 2 piece isn't worth using the actual items. Especially since after the change to season 3 items, I see talk that the breastplate might be even better than t6, especially since you appear to be a Blood elf.

Just my thoughts though. =]
#433SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Turik
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just out of curiosity how did your tank retain aggro after that? Your TPS numbers might have been a new record.

He may have possibly been more than 32k threat in front of the paladin.

Spikey threat does not mean more threat. It just means if you are riding their ass with threat, you are more likely to fuck up. I never understood why "spikeyness" was bad.
#434SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'm actually not sure that's true about the chest, even if you're hit capped (though given current itemization, every bit of +hit is great to open up different ring/neck choices etc).
Oops, my mistake entered the stam/str values the wrong way round in S3. Does indeed make T6 chest better


Originally Posted by Locazo View Post
I'll probably be going ret with my paladin in 2.3 thanks to the threat reduction. A couple of quick questions since I can't use the spreadsheet (OpenOffice):

Is the tier 6 2 piece bonus worth picking up? If so, which 2 pieces? I can grab any 2 pieces I want so I'm just concerned with which ones are the best if the bonus is indeed worth getting.
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Well, just going off of the spreadsheet... under the "best of the best" setup, only the Lightbringer Chestpeice is being used, so I would be under the assumption that the 2 piece isn't worth using the actual items. Especially since after the change to season 3 items, I see talk that the breastplate might be even better than t6, especially since you appear to be a Blood elf.
Please note the gear sets entered into the model are only examples of gear sets at different levels. The best of the best was at the time one of the highest combinations i could find to maximse dps.

The 2 piece lghtbringer is reasonably nice. It adds about 30Mp5, so I would say it's worth it as it either makes certain you can spam judgements etc on CD in a raid or allows you to throw in extra exorcisms/consecrations. This extra Mp5 use cant be modelled into the spreadsheet as dps, but can often be worth it.

Personally i would go for the chest and shoulders
#435SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Reposting from Cromfel's forums, below is the best dps setup I came up with using Bellator's sheet (note this is for SoB, SoC might be slightly different).

Head: Illidari shatterer, glyph of the outcast, relentless earthstorm, 12 crit (JC only) or 10 str
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulders: Lightbringer, greater inscription, 2x 5str/5crit
Back: Shadowmoon Destroyer's, +12 agi
Chest: Lightbringer, +6 stats, 24 AP (JC only) or 10 str, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Wrist: Furious Shackles, brawn, 10 str
Hands: S3 gloves, +15 str
Waist: Red Belt of Battle, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Legs: Endless Rage, nethercobra
Feet: Dreadboots of the Legion, +12 agi, 2x 5str/5crit
Rings: Unstoppable Aggressor's+Band of Devastation or Band of Eternal Champion (seem to be fairly close)
Trinkets: Darkmoon Card Crusade+DST or Berserker's Call
Weapon: Cataclysm's Edge, savagery

You need 2 blue gems for the metagem, you can use the 5str/4agi one from heroic SV for a bit more dps though.

This setup also puts you well over the hit cap so you can drop your Prot talents completely if you want.
#436SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Reposting from Cromfel's forums, below is the best dps setup I came up with using Bellator's sheet (note this is for SoB, SoC might be slightly different).

Head: Illidari shatterer, glyph of the outcast, relentless earthstorm, 12 crit (JC only) or 10 str
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulders: Lightbringer, greater inscription, 2x 5str/5crit
Back: Shadowmoon Destroyer's, +12 agi
Chest: Lightbringer, +6 stats, 24 AP (JC only) or 10 str, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Wrist: Furious Shackles, brawn, 10 str
Hands: S3 gloves, +15 str
Waist: Red Belt of Battle, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Legs: Endless Rage, nethercobra
Feet: Dreadboots of the Legion, +12 agi, 2x 5str/5crit
Rings: Unstoppable Aggressor's+Band of Devastation or Band of Eternal Champion (seem to be fairly close)
Trinkets: Darkmoon Card Crusade+DST or Berserker's Call
Weapon: Cataclysm's Edge, savagery

You need 2 blue gems for the metagem, you can use the 5str/4agi one from heroic SV for a bit more dps though.

This setup also puts you well over the hit cap so you can drop your Prot talents completely if you want.
Exactly how much would this differ for a SoC retadin?
#437SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
This may come across as a stupid question, but what is the cap on hit rating for a paladin?
#438SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
Exactly how much would this differ for a SoC retadin?
Not a lot I think, maybe a bit more Lightbringer instead of random warrior plate. And Torch of the Damned instead of Cataclysm's. This assuming they don't reitemize the tier sets to drop spell damage and/or change SoC mechanics.

A raiding retridin needs about 9% hit, which is something like 142 (?) hit rating. Normally you get 3% of that from Precision talent but the gear setup above removes the need for that.
#439SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Not a lot I think, maybe a bit more Lightbringer instead of random warrior plate. And Torch of the Damned instead of Cataclysm's. This assuming they don't reitemize the tier sets to drop spell damage and/or change SoC mechanics.

A raiding retridin needs about 9% hit, which is something like 142 (?) hit rating. Normally you get 3% of that from Precision talent but the gear setup above removes the need for that.
Sweet thanks!
#440SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Meuble
With precision, we need 95 hit rating to be caped (see there).

For the t6 bonus 2 pieces bonus, I'll say it's a must have. Just don't take the gloves, you'll need s3 ones (+5% on CS!).

For the data on executionner / savagery: sorry it's taking me so long, never used wws before and I had a couple of trouble running it. But I'm still on it!

Last thing, since a post here reminded me of something:
But anyway, the model does indeed suggest for SoB the cataclysm is the best, and for SoC the torch is the best. But its only marginal in both cases.
I know cataclysm outdps the torch by a lil' bit, but isn't it better just because it's a faster weapon? The question is, how good are faster weapons for SoC user? I really been wondering about that, since SoC's there every time you hit, I would tend to think "the faster the better". And considering the s3 halleberd dps, well it might be even better than those two weapons. Any thoughts, any one?
#441SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
@ Meuble

As a quick reply to your faster weapon question, the quick answer is Cataclysm's edge isn't a better weapon for SoB (i assumed you meant this not SoC) due to the faster speed.

When it comes to dps, whilst white damage and SoB are independant of weapon speed (ie they will produce the same dps all things except weapon speed being equal), however CS (and for alliance paladins, SoC), the slower the weapon (due to the higher top end damage), the more damage per hit these abilities will do, and since the rate of the these abilities is not reliant on weapon speed, the dps of these abilities will increase.

For SoB paladins, whilst cataclysms is not a 3.8 speed like the torch, and thus the CS "loses" out in terms of dps, the weapon is 10 ilvls higher, and the dps increase from this is greater than the CS loss so it is a better weapon.

For SoC paladins, since both SoC and CS are effected by weapon speed, the gain of Torch being 3.8 is greater than the gain from going to a faster, Ilvl superior weapon.

Thus in short, for all paladins, slower weapons will be better, but faster weapons can still be superior is their ilvl is far greater than the slow weapon
#442SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Turik View Post
He may have possibly been more than 32k threat in front of the paladin.

Spikey threat does not mean more threat. It just means if you are riding their ass with threat, you are more likely to fuck up. I never understood why "spikeyness" was bad.
Spikey threat does mean more TPS (Threat per Second), which is exactly what my post said.

Threat spikes are much much worse than riding a threatline. If your hate comes in spikes it is very difficult to control where your threat levels will be relative to the tank. If you're already riding the tank's hate level you'll pull, if you're not you'll be damn close to doing so and have to hold back DPS until the tank regains a sufficient margin. If you know your threat is going to be all over the place you'll either be stuck:
a) holding back so if you do deal 32k damage in 7 seconds you won't pull
b) being forced to hold back after a bad spike
c) dying (and on Archimonde most likely wiping the raid by doing so)

Of course these will be addressed with the new Threat Reduction talent in 2.3, so its not as much of a problem now.
#443SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Reposting from Cromfel's forums, below is the best dps setup I came up with using Bellator's sheet (note this is for SoB, SoC might be slightly different).

Head: Illidari shatterer, glyph of the outcast, relentless earthstorm, 12 crit (JC only) or 10 str
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulders: Lightbringer, greater inscription, 2x 5str/5crit
Back: Shadowmoon Destroyer's, +12 agi
Chest: Lightbringer, +6 stats, 24 AP (JC only) or 10 str, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Wrist: Furious Shackles, brawn, 10 str
Hands: S3 gloves, +15 str
Waist: Red Belt of Battle, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Legs: Endless Rage, nethercobra
Feet: Dreadboots of the Legion, +12 agi, 2x 5str/5crit
Rings: Unstoppable Aggressor's+Band of Devastation or Band of Eternal Champion (seem to be fairly close)
Trinkets: Darkmoon Card Crusade+DST or Berserker's Call
Weapon: Cataclysm's Edge, savagery

You need 2 blue gems for the metagem, you can use the 5str/4agi one from heroic SV for a bit more dps though.

This setup also puts you well over the hit cap so you can drop your Prot talents completely if you want.
I came up with a fairly similar setup with one glaring except... I rather use teh Vision of Sargeras. The agility on the leather helm is just... amazing. Helm of Illidari shatterer has too much hit.
#444SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Yes, but that's... leather [/ominous voice]
#445SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
I came up with a fairly similar setup with one glaring except... I rather use teh Vision of Sargeras. The agility on the leather helm is just... amazing. Helm of Illidari shatterer has too much hit.
Looking at the stats CVoS looks like it would be marginally ahead (a few less AP but with enough raw crit to make up for it). But agility is relatively useless for ret pallys as opposed for those who the item was made for, namely rogues. I think if every rogue (and maybe druids if they wanted it) has it, I would take it as well, but they should be recieving first priority on it, just as a DPS Warrior/Ret Pally should have dibs on Illidari Shatterer over the other plate wearers.

Might want to work on your grammar before a banhammer strikes you too bro.
#446SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
32k damage (exactly 31947) burst in 7 seconds! Thank god for the upcoming threat reduction..
Just out of curiosity how did your tank retain aggro after that? Your TPS numbers might have been a new record.
A hint lies in the 2nd part of the line

You are absolutely correct however with your later reply about having to hold back in order not to spike up to aggro gain.

I usually try to stay at 70% on omen in such fights, but even then, "shit can happen" like in the example above.

Just goes to prove how badly this threat reduction was needed.


Originally Posted by Locazo View Post
Is the tier 6 2 piece bonus worth picking up? If so, which 2 pieces? I can grab any 2 pieces I want so I'm just concerned with which ones are the best if the bonus is indeed worth getting.

The 2 piece bonus is most definitely worth it. The 50 mana proc goes off fairly often, ~20% according to my tests.

I wish I could say the same for the 4 set bonus, which is completely useless.

Since you're a belf and will be using SoB, I guess mostly "warrior plate" would beneficial (if you can keep your mana pool up), however for alliance paladins I'd highly suggest sticking to Lightbringer/retadin gear, simply because the increased mana pool allows for a lot more flexibility in your damage (consecration/exorcism).
#447SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Reposting from Cromfel's forums, below is the best dps setup I came up with using Bellator's sheet (note this is for SoB, SoC might be slightly different).

Head: Illidari shatterer, glyph of the outcast, relentless earthstorm, 12 crit (JC only) or 10 str
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulders: Lightbringer, greater inscription, 2x 5str/5crit
Back: Shadowmoon Destroyer's, +12 agi
Chest: Lightbringer, +6 stats, 24 AP (JC only) or 10 str, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Wrist: Furious Shackles, brawn, 10 str
Hands: S3 gloves, +15 str
Waist: Red Belt of Battle, 5str/5crit, 5str/7sta
Legs: Endless Rage, nethercobra
Feet: Dreadboots of the Legion, +12 agi, 2x 5str/5crit
Rings: Unstoppable Aggressor's+Band of Devastation or Band of Eternal Champion (seem to be fairly close)
Trinkets: Darkmoon Card Crusade+DST or Berserker's Call
Weapon: Cataclysm's Edge, savagery

You need 2 blue gems for the metagem, you can use the 5str/4agi one from heroic SV for a bit more dps though.

This setup also puts you well over the hit cap so you can drop your Prot talents completely if you want.

I've seen many such lists mentioned and I'm not sure I agree here, same explanation as before about bellator's suggested "best of best" set.


The thing is, while going blindly by spreadsheet this is the max theoretical DPS, however you're cutting many corners in order to achieve minute DPS increases over the traditional ret gear.



For example here are the numbers from bellators item upgrade analysis:

->Helm of the Illidari Shatterer offers 5.77 dps increase to T6 helm

You're losing ~530 mana for that (with BoK).

-> Legguards of Endless Rage offers 1.15 dps increase to T6 pants

You're losing ~363 mana for that (with BoK) and 9mp5.


I'm sure you can see the pattern here.

Now that extra mana/regen gives you the option to add a few consecration here and there, or like I do with Alchemist's Stone keep up consecration spam virtually 80% of the time in some fights.

1 tap of consecration adds roughly ~150 DPS in my current gear for 8 seconds.

On demon/undead mobs, you can factor in exorcism spam too (which is pretty much all of Hyjal and many in BT).

If you run out of mana, you're forced to reduce your damage considerably.

Simply put, for alliance paladins, I feel warrior gear is really gimp (though I do make exceptions with bracers/boots where there is no viable paladin alternative).



Another thing to consider is, while spelldamage is inferior to Str etc, most of those models consider a fully sundered/CoR etc etc mob. On many mobs which do not have all these debuffs (like on bosses with multiple targets or even trash), spelldamage gains a bit of worth since it buffs your armor unmitigated holy damage.


Just food for thought, I've seen even worse "best of best" lists which have only 1 or 0 T6 pieces and it's just ridiculous.

Last edited by Avitus : 10/29/07 at 5:49 PM.
#448SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
I didn't claim it to be anything other than a pure "maximized dps list".
Also, I made that list without any buffs or target debuffs taken into consideration, only retribution talents (not even BoK). Obviously additional buffs/modifiers that you can select in the spreadsheet may influence it.
#449SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
I think in future versions of the spreadsheet "best of the best" will be labelled "tier 6 warrior gear". The gear sets were only there as examples showing how the save/load/delete functions work, yet have caused far more trouble than they are worth :p
#450SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
I didn't claim it to be anything other than a pure "maximized dps list".
Also, I made that list without any buffs or target debuffs taken into consideration, only retribution talents (not even BoK). Obviously additional buffs/modifiers that you can select in the spreadsheet may influence it.
Yea I'm just pointing out the "dangers" of just going 100% by spreadsheet, I've seen too many people start making up wishlists that would be really bad in practice, simply based on the DPS numbers the spreadsheet spits out.

As paladins we don't have the same luxury as other classes, mana efficiency has to be considered

Note bellator's excellent "time till OOM" figure which was added.
#451SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavis Knight
I was wondering if anyone in this thread would be able to help me maximize my dps output as retribution?

I seem to be having problems because i feel that my output is sub par in relation to my dps statistics.

Which sit at: 1670AP/27.5%Crit/200SD/9%HIT unbuffed.

I had a few questions about dps rotations for Retribution. I feel currently i am making inneficient use of Global cooldown management. I understand that in many cases i have to hit Crusader Strike/Judgement and reseal whenever i can; however, i believe there is more to dpsing as a paladin than this.

I was wondering if anyone had any examples of dps rotations i should follow to maximize that output and not be caught on the Global cooldown as much.

Another issue i have is with the swing timer. At 3.6 seconds its a much bigger deal if it resets. Right now i have an Attack button on my hotkey bar. Sometimes without realizing it i will hit the Attack key when i have an enemy targeted which seems to reset or delay my swings. Is there some other hotkey or macro i should use for targeting? Do most people use the mouse?

Another question i had about the swing timer was:

Is the swing timer more like an instant spell with a 3.6 second cooldown (in regards to the weapon speed). Or is it more like a spell that takes 3.6 seconds to cast? I realize that attack is not a spell; however, i find the comparison in this instance helpful. I asked on the wow forums and no one was able to give a straight answer unfortunately .

One other question i had was: Is spamming Level 1 consecrate worth it assuming i have the mana to do so?

Thank you very much for any help on these dps strings. If you know of any helpful mods to track things like that please let me know.
#452SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Can anyone tell me the spell damage coefficnet of rank 1 SoC?

I have found a way to estimate dps increase based on Int/Mp5 so will hopefully include that.
#453SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
More spreadsheet feedback:

-When you do item analysis, it fills all items with str gems? This is a bit counterproductive since you lose socket bonuses like +hit which changes the results of the item analysis (offers hit items that you shouldn't need).

-Ticking on/off "2 piece Lightbringer" seems to have no effect "on time till OOM" number?

Hope v19 is out soon
#454SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Yea I'm just pointing out the "dangers" of just going 100% by spreadsheet, I've seen too many people start making up wishlists that would be really bad in practice, simply based on the DPS numbers the spreadsheet spits out.

As paladins we don't have the same luxury as other classes, mana efficiency has to be considered

Note bellator's excellent "time till OOM" figure which was added.
As i mentioned in my previous post i'm working on a way to convert Mp5/Int/Mana etc into dps.

I'm working on the assumption that the fight is X minutes long. From this, based on base mana and +/- mana gain it's possible to work out in a 10 minute fight how much spare mana you will have for Exorcisms etc. The average damage over 10 minutes from this can then be converted into a dps number.

It show's that 2 Lightbringer is a must have. However aside from this, the results would indicate that in dps terms there is very little between additional ret-pala gear and warrior dps gear (with warrior dps gear winning slightly).

I'll hopefully get it out tomorrow (along with a Str/Crit point of inflection section) for you to have a nose at.
#455SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Lavis Knight View Post
I seem to be having problems because i feel that my output is sub par in relation to my dps statistics.

Which sit at: 1670AP/27.5%Crit/200SD/9%HIT unbuffed.
I'm not an expert on belf paladin DPS, but from what I can tell they usually ditch most of their spelldamage for pure melee stats and have much higher AP and much less SD than your setup.


Right now i have an Attack button on my hotkey bar. Sometimes without realizing it i will hit the Attack key when i have an enemy targeted which seems to reset or delay my swings. Is there some other hotkey or macro i should use for targeting? Do most people use the mouse?
The default attack button is a toggle. If you press it while attacking you'll stop attacking.

You got 3 options:

-Use mouse right click.
-Make a macro button with /startattack and put it where your current attack button is. This doesn't toggle off if you press it again.
-What I currently use: Incorprate it into your SoC button macro, just add a line with /startattack


Is the swing timer more like an instant spell with a 3.6 second cooldown
Yes.

One other question i had was: Is spamming Level 1 consecrate worth it assuming i have the mana to do so?
Actually spamming max rank (6) is worth it if you got the mana, it's tons of added DPS if you can keep up with the mana, especially with your current spelldamage levels.



Thank you very much for any help on these dps strings. If you know of any helpful mods to track things like that please let me know.
Recount or any of the other DPS meters (assessment, SW-stats come to mind).
#456SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Bellator, can you add the arena weapons, and also perhaps some choice leather dps gear?

Also, I'm getting a strange bug, if I set a gem slot to "none" it gets the stats of outcast glyph (17 str/16 int), not sure though as I've edited the sheet a bit. Can someone else check if it happens for them?
#457SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Lavis Knight
I'm not an expert on belf paladin DPS, but from what I can tell they usually ditch most of their spelldamage for pure melee stats and have much higher AP and much less SD than your setup.
I was trying not to lose too much Int. (I think i have about 6.3k mana) Unfortunately if you want Int you still have to usually take SD as well.

My guild is currently only done Karazhan and starting up Gruul. We will be going to ZA when it starts. I am hoping my stats are good for it, but i am also hoping that i can make my dps rotation more effective. ^^

Thank you very much for your help.

Last edited by Lavis Knight : 10/29/07 at 7:19 PM.
#458SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fanvast
Judgement Question

Hello, Fanvast here. I have been tracking this thread for awhile, and I am a relativly new Retribution Paladin. I leveled with it for a brief time, then returned to holy for PvE. My arena team, Satori, is going to be achieving Gladiator this season (Pretty much 100% chance :P) and I may or may not retire, as I have a sweet netherdrake!

The netherdrake itself is a reason to spec ret, as I have zero prot gear and alot of arena points and some tier 4 all set for Retribution. I need gold!

As I am also in a raiding guild, I may get the oppurtunity to raid. I love your rotations put up, but I am curious as to the first Judgement. Are we judging SoC first, Seal of the Crusader, or even Wisdom or Light?

The way I see it, I am reading the rotation as

1. Judge seal of Crusader, Light, or Wisdom
2. SoC/B
3. Crusader Strike
4. Judge during GCD

Rinse, repeat. Any corrections? I am all set on what gear and gems to aim for.
#459SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavis Knight
This is an adaptation of the WW/Bloodthirst model used by warriors (where they only put 1 point into Imp WW). What that means is 1 point in imp Judgement is actually a DPS increase over 2 points. Effect is very minimal and with 2 points you have little more room for errors.
So is it better to judge every nine seconds?
#460SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Zurm
Any possibility the author could update the main post with a discussion of enchants? Looking at a lot of the geared up raiders I see a lot of variance between mongoose and savagery... plus executioner is coming (although from my understanding its not going to be very good for us since we do so much magic damage).
#461SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3RamzaBehoulve
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Any possibility the author could update the main post with a discussion of enchants? Looking at a lot of the geared up raiders I see a lot of variance between mongoose and savagery... plus executioner is coming (although from my understanding its not going to be very good for us since we do so much magic damage).
Well from previous discussions, it's been pretty much accepted Executionner will perfom subpar to Mongoose and Savagery.

Then between Mongoose and Savagery, it seems between SoC, JoC CS and normal melee attacks we can up the chance to proc per min to around 2.4 if I remember correctly, giviing it a slight edge over Savagery. But then again Savagery stays the most stable of all three, not being a proc, but being a permanent AP bonus.
#462SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
More spreadsheet feedback:

-When you do item analysis, it fills all items with str gems? This is a bit counterproductive since you lose socket bonuses like +hit which changes the results of the item analysis (offers hit items that you shouldn't need).

-Ticking on/off "2 piece Lightbringer" seems to have no effect "on time till OOM" number?

Hope v19 is out soon
With regards gems, i have found that on average a socketed item is more likely to show a higher dps increase if socketed with strength gems than if sockets with gems providing socket bonus. I will try and see if i can get the item analysis to look at items under both situations and report the best. Not sure how much longer it will take to run though.

With regards "2 Piece Lightbringer" in "Playstyle Mana/Info" section, there is a slight mistake in that there shouldnt be an "On/Off" tick box there. When you equip 2+ pieces of lightbringer the box in this section will calculate and show how much mps is being provided by the lightbringer bonus. Will make it clearer in next version
#463SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Zurm
I probably should have specified I am a blood elf.

I would assume being a Blood Elf and using SoB tips the scales making Savagery better?
#464SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Bellator, can you add the arena weapons, and also perhaps some choice leather dps gear?

Also, I'm getting a strange bug, if I set a gem slot to "none" it gets the stats of outcast glyph (17 str/16 int), not sure though as I've edited the sheet a bit. Can someone else check if it happens for them?
The "none" bug is fixed in the next version. If I get time will add arena weapons (it's on the to do list, not 100% sure it it will make next version, but definately one after that).

With regards leather that is a little further down my list sorry. I did include some leather in versions 0.001beta of the model but i found it generally performed poorly (far too much hit, AP not str, Agi not crit). However i'm sure there are some good pieces out there. If you have the time to have a nose and provide me with a list of a few, will try to add them when i add arenas weapons.

Originally Posted by Lavis Knight View Post
So is it better to judge every nine seconds?
Yes, as it is impossible to judge faster than every nine seconds, keep SoC at 100% uptime and CS every 6 seconds. At nine seconds CS can be done every 6 seconds and SoC can be up 100% of the time.
#465SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavis Knight
Originally Posted by bellator View Post


Yes, as it is impossible to judge faster than every nine seconds, keep SoC at 100% uptime and CS every 6 seconds. At nine seconds CS can be done every 6 seconds and SoC can be up 100% of the time.
Is that based off of a 6 second or a 10 second or both? It would be more of a matter that SOC cannot be kept up rather than it being impossible to judge every 9 seconds right? As it is on a different Global cooldown.

Has anyone ever experimented with different weapon speeds to any success?
#466SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
It is based off a 6 Sec CS

And yes, judgement is not on global cooldown. The problem that judging ever 8 second is that either:-

a) You choose to refresh the seal after every judgement and the GCD of the seal overlaps with the CD ending of CS forcing it to be delayed

b) If the judgment comes just before CS and you choose not to push back the CS, thus are forced to wait until GCD of CS is done and then refresh seal meaning 100% SoC uptime is not achievable.

Best option in terms of DPS is to do CS on cooldown and judge whenever possible so that the instant re-sealing does not effect CS. This turns out to be a nine second minimum average between judgements.

In terms of weapons speeds, it is irrelevant to the rotation of SoC/JoC/CS since they are all instant casts which dont effect the swing timer. I guess there is a potential possibility that you could get a certain weapon speed so that using CS and judgement on cooldown only results in the SoC downtime to occur between hits. However whether this actually exists is another question (too late to think about it), and to be honest the practical implementation of this would be next to impossible i would imagine
#467SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Lavis Knight
So then the easiest way to track this would be to only judge when Crusader Strike is on cooldown?

Although in seal of bloods case, aren't there times when JOB will do more damage than Crusader Strike?

In terms of weapons speeds, it is irrelevant to the rotation of SoC/JoC/CS since they are all instant casts which dont effect the swing timer. I guess there is a potential possibility that you could get a certain weapon speed so that using CS and judgement on cooldown only results in the SoC downtime to occur between hits. However whether this actually exists is another question (too late to think about it), and to be honest the practical implementation of this would be next to impossible i would imagine
lol yes that is what i mean. I suppose we don't have too many numbers to choose from typically. Either 3.8 or 3.6 for the most part with maybe a slight tweak depending on haste rating.

Last edited by Lavis Knight : 10/29/07 at 9:19 PM.
#468SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Yes, as it is impossible to judge faster than every nine seconds, keep SoC at 100% uptime and CS every 6 seconds. At nine seconds CS can be done every 6 seconds and SoC can be up 100% of the time.
With a very slow weapon wouldn't it be sometimes possible to judge earlier and recast the seal later, but still in time for the autoattack so you actually don't lose any SoC DPS?

As for int, think how much damage is 500 mana... It's really not a lot at all. Regen is something else though, but still seems to cost too much. I guess we'll haknow exactly once the spreadsheet is updated.

Remember when you theorycraft your base mana, to include EVERY mean of mana regen you're going to use - raid buffs, party buffs, mana pots, jow, 2pt6 and anything else I forgot. Heck many fights usually include some ticks outside the FSR too and time when you're not DPSing and thus not spending any mana.
#469SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Fanvast View Post
The way I see it, I am reading the rotation as

1. Judge seal of Crusader, Light, or Wisdom
2. SoC/B
3. Crusader Strike
4. Judge during GCD

Rinse, repeat. Any corrections? I am all set on what gear and gems to aim for.
You start off with JotC since that's your main "raid buff", let the holy paladins add JoW/JoL, also nice if you can keep an eye on all 3 buffs in case one of them drops due to fear/dodged CS or something and communicate for the other paladins to stick em back up.

Then it's SoB for you, CS, Judge, repeat

Add in exorcism and consecration depending on boss time and mana.

Best served with a side dish of mana pots. Enjoy!
#470SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Using the spreadhseet with its pre-made T5 gear set I got almost 50k mana you can use over 10 minutes, out of which a bit over 45k gets used by the spreadsheet, leaving you with ~4300 mana to spend in those 10 minutes on exorcisms and concentrations. Looking at that it really shouldn't be hard to add mana usage to the spreadsheet at least if you assume 100% DPS time (and no out of FSR regen). Just use the extra mana on exorcisms/concentrations (and HoWs?).

What I wonder is how the SEP system (and optimal DPS rotation) changes when you add exorcism on cooldown, not to mention concentration, as if there aren't errors or bad assumptions on the spreadsheet you have quite a bit of mana to spend on those, even if not on every cooldown. My current rough math shows you can exorcism ~1/2 the time with that leftover mana in a 10 minute fight. Then again (didn't go into exact numbers here) it looks like it would only add 10-30 DPS depending on your spell damage if you cast exorcism 21 times in a 10 minute fight.
#471SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Any possibility the author could update the main post with a discussion of enchants? Looking at a lot of the geared up raiders I see a lot of variance between mongoose and savagery... plus executioner is coming (although from my understanding its not going to be very good for us since we do so much magic damage).
For a brief summary (at least this is my opinion on how things stand):

-Savagery: Best enchant for low end gear, +70 AP is massive.

-Mongoose: Once you start equipping T6 level gear you're going to be overloaded with AP and losing a lot of crit. The 70 AP from Savagery starts looking less and less useful as 120 agi and 2% haste @ estimated 2.4 ppm when spamming all cooldowns. bellator even mentions it might be better overall.

-Executioner: Haven't done any real tests, but I assume based on the nature of our damage (which is 35%-50% unmitigated holy damage) that it loses a lot of worth for us.
#472SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
As for int, think how much damage is 500 mana... It's really not a lot at all. Regen is something else though, but still seems to cost too much. I guess we'll haknow exactly once the spreadsheet is updated.

Remember when you theorycraft your base mana, to include EVERY mean of mana regen you're going to use - raid buffs, party buffs, mana pots, jow, 2pt6 and anything else I forgot. Heck many fights usually include some ticks outside the FSR too and time when you're not DPSing and thus not spending any mana.
Keep in mind spreadsheet theory craft is different than practice. Most of the time I personally don't get BoW (if we're raiding with <4 paladins), many times it's too hectic to keep up JoW 24/7.

In many fights you can't rely on incoming damage and spiritual attunement.

Just mentioning that you shouldn't be prepared for the theoretically optimal situation.


What you say about mana regen >> mana pool is true mostly, but there's also some exceptions to that.

Short, pure burst fights like Shade of Akama where you barely get time for 1 mana potion mean that your mana pool is basically what caps your total possible damage in that fight.

I currently spam Consecration almost 80% of the time in that fight and it gives me a huge edge over a ret paladin that can't due to using warrior gear.


Also remember, the 530 mana you quote is just from one item (helm), now consider many paladins who opt out for full warrior gear, then we're talking 2k-3k mana loss for usually very minimal DPS increase.

And in practice, it's a DPS decrease since you can't keep up consecration spam or exorcism.

Last edited by Avitus : 10/29/07 at 10:12 PM.
#473SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
I guess I'll just leave it to the spreadsheet to figure out really *how* better the warrior gear is compared to paladin gear ignoring mana, and then how better is the extra mana on the paladin gear, and see which grants a net benefit.

Just generalizing though, 500 mana is ~33 int and increases your mana supply by ~1% in 10 minutes. 33 STR is ~20 DPS with the default "best of the best" setup which is about 1.2% increase to your total DPS. Since 1% DPS is by far better than 1% mana I'd say that at least per itemization point, STR>>INT.

I bet you'll get not very different results even in short fights. Remember in short fights, while your regen is less significant, the oom factor is less significant as well and the extra mana is spent in a less efficient way anyway, so while it's easier to get 1% increase to your mana in a short fight, the actual benefit from that 1% is also smaller.

I suppose you're right about not having wisdom most of the time (although with the 2.3 buffs to ret and prot you might just start seeing 4-pally raids more often), I doubt it would make much difference regarding how much your DPS increases when you get more mana.

Maybe my intuition is off and the spreadsheet will say otherwise, but it just doesn't seem likely.
#474SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Maybe my intuition is off and the spreadsheet will say otherwise, but it just doesn't seem likely.
Trust me, I don't need a spreadsheet to tell me what I know from practice. We really do need any mana we can fit in and ret gear is godlike for that.

It's not for any reason that everyone who goes retri asks "how do you keep your mana up"?


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Just generalizing though, 500 mana is ~33 int and increases your mana supply by ~1% in 10 minutes.
That's exactly the problem with generalizing though. Your assumptions are all based on optimum mana regen (JoW/BoW/Shadowpriest?/Spiritual Attunement and what not) I guess.

And if you're considering a shadow priest, you'll never have a shadow priest as well as be in the melee group (enc shammy and warrior for BS) and melee group > shadow priest.


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
STR>>INT.
Definitely. But there's a point where people are just ditching int left and right for very minimal damage stats and that's what I'm trying to point out.

Like for example Helm of Illidari Shatterer 5.7 more DPS vs 530 mana.


I bet you'll get not very different results even in short fights. Remember in short fights, while your regen is less significant, the oom factor is less significant as well and the extra mana is spent in a less efficient way anyway, so while it's easier to get 1% increase to your mana in a short fight, the actual benefit from that 1% is also smaller.
Lets take a real example.

5x T6 offers ~2100 mana with BoK, 9mp5 and 2 set bonus (50 mana proc).

Assume you're wearing 5x warrior plate with 0 mana and 0 regen.

Now take the Akama fight which lasts ~3-4 mins for us, which gives you only 1 chance for a mana pot and there's most definitely no JoW on each of the channelers.

I'll let you do the math of how much more damage can be done in ~3-4 mins with ~2100 more mana in consecration spam.

Also while it's horribly inefficient, an added ~150DPS from consecration is not a small number.

In the akama fight, you can use it on the non-aggroing channeller mobs for example, for X*150DPS where X is the number of channelers

This is the most extreme example, but there are many others.



End of the day I don't think the question is "would you take 1% damage or 1% mana" since that's very very general and those percents you give vary wildly depending on time of the fight, buffs, debuffs, group composition. The question is: Would you take a ~5.7 dps upgrade for ~530 mana loss (illidari shatterer vs t6)? (And similar numbers for most other warrior vs ret gear choices).

Last edited by Avitus : 10/29/07 at 11:36 PM.
#475SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Can anyone tell me the spell damage coefficnet of rank 1 SoC?

I have found a way to estimate dps increase based on Int/Mp5 so will hopefully include that.
Rank 1 SoC is 20%, the same as max rank.
#476SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3TinReaper
Just wondering Bellator if any of your dps calculations on your spreadsheet have included glancing blows?

and have you looked at the effect of weapon expertise?
#477SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Avitus, you take a very extreme example in the case of Illidari Shatterer vs T6. This one applies to you and only you imo. For me, the difference in both is about 35 DPS since don't have precision and I'm not hit capped. The math is never that simple and no real example would give you 5 dps for 530 mana tradeoff. In your case it's 5 dps vs 530 mana and 8 points spent in protection.
#478SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavis Knight
I was again looking at those dps cycles.

So then it is believed that you should only use Crusader Strike if you have a seal up first? If i do that will i follow the fourth example?
#479SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by grover View Post
Rank 1 SoC is 20%, the same as max rank.
Damn, i meant to ask for rank 1 consecration coefficient :p Got the number on that?
#480SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Warpony
Kris: Agreed. If you go full T6 you'll have a hard time getting to 142 hitrating, which atleast is my aim, without severly gimping other things.

In this regard Shatterer + Endless rage are great compliments instead of the T6, and it's the route i've chosen.

So yeah, im sacrifising some mana, getting only 2 pieces T6. But i'll be hitcapped without talents, which for me is a VERY VERY nice bonus.
#481SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
With a very slow weapon wouldn't it be sometimes possible to judge earlier and recast the seal later, but still in time for the autoattack so you actually don't lose any SoC DPS?

As for int, think how much damage is 500 mana... It's really not a lot at all. Regen is something else though, but still seems to cost too much. I guess we'll haknow exactly once the spreadsheet is updated.
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Also remember, the 530 mana you quote is just from one item (helm), now consider many paladins who opt out for full warrior gear, then we're talking 2k-3k mana loss for usually very minimal DPS increase.

And in practice, it's a DPS decrease since you can't keep up consecration spam or exorcism.
Before the spreadsheet comes out, some rough maths especially regarding the "2k-3k mana loss for usually very minimal DPS increase." which might make you think differently.

Let's look at Mp5/Str comparison. In terms of itemisation cost, for 1Mp5 you can get 2.5 Str. Thus for 5Mp5 you can get 12.5 Strength (which turns into 15.125 strength after Divine Strength and BoK). The spreadsheet has shown a rough dps gain per strength is around 0.6dps per strength. So for the cost of 5Mp5 you could get 15.125*0.6 = 9dps from strength.

Now, 5Mp5 is equal to 1 mana per second. Since exorcism costs 340mana this gives you 1 exorcism every 340 seconds. According to my sheet the average exororcism raid buffed will be about 1000. This means that the extra dps will be 1000/340 = 3 dps.

Now lets look at INT. To get enough mana from INT to cast 1 exorcism in a fight you need 20.6 Int (20.6*BoK*15 = 340). This Int can get you 20.6*Divine Strength*Bok = 25 Strength = 25 *0.6 = 15 dps from strength

With Exorcism been 1000 damage If the fight was 10 minutes long, the Int would only give you 1000/600 = 1.66dps. A 5 minute fight would be 3.33dps. The fight would have to be 66 seconds or less to make the Int contribution equal to the Strength contribution.

So I would say that in general the extra 2-3k mana is not worth as the dps gain you can get from not having this mana is greater than if you have it.

Of course, "Big Wins" such as 2 piece lightbringer which is about 30mp5 is a must, and one must ensure they have enough mana(regen) so they can keep their normal rotations going. However after this extra mana for exorcisms in my opinion is not worth it.

Atrius, would appreciate your feedback on the above. Please remember i'm not saying int/regen is bad, just that i feel and it appears any int/regen once you have enough to maintain a SoC/JoC/CS rotation is not needed, and i'd much prefer str to exorcisms

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
2) Remember when you theorycraft your base mana, to include EVERY mean of mana regen you're going to use - raid buffs, party buffs, mana pots, jow, 2pt6 and anything else I forgot. Heck many fights usually include some ticks outside the FSR too and time when you're not DPSing and thus not spending any mana.
As far as I know every source of mana/mana regen is available to turn on/off etc including shadow priests. However things that arent included are:-
1) Ticks outside the FSR - will be very minimal and very difficult to calculate
2) Mana gain from being healed - to complex to calculate and varies so much from fight to fight (I might put a box where you can fill in the hps you take but would advise leave it off)
3) Time not dpsing - model is based on being able to constantly dps. Modeling time not dpsing would be very fight specific.

Originally Posted by TinReaper View Post
Just wondering Bellator if any of your dps calculations on your spreadsheet have included glancing blows?

and have you looked at the effect of weapon expertise?
Yes glancing blows are included. And i have looked at WE. It is great for paladins. As good as hit rating. But since there is no plate or weapons or talents which ret paladins can get to increase it, havent rushed to include it in model

Originally Posted by Lavis Knight View Post
I was again looking at those dps cycles.

So then it is believed that you should only use Crusader Strike if you have a seal up first? If i do that will i follow the fourth example?
If you have only 1 point in improved judgement, then the 4th example is the best one to use. If you have two points in improved judgement there is a slightly different cycle which has times between judgements alternating between 8 and 10 seconds (might be worth adding it Siguard?), but the end result is the same as example 4.
#482SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
About leather gear - you don't necessarily need to add it into the spreadsheet, but at least give us the ability to set up our own items if we want to. At the moment I am wearing [Chestguard of the Conniver] due to the nicely large amount of +hit it provides, and would like to know what would be an upgrade to it.
#483SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Warpony
Gah, bella beat me to it kinda.

Was just about to add: Since when should we base our gear around Shade of Akama, possibly the shortest and most gimped fight in T6 content?

Take that 2000 mana (and it won't rly be that high, since i think 90% of us will go for 2-piece bonus) and spread it out over a 20m Illidan fight... I'd much prefeer the small dps increase from warrior items instead of dropping STR and Hit-rating just to push ~5 more exorsisms...
#484SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Just a quick note that was looking at leather Weapon Expertise and noticed that when Belt of 100 deaths was included in the model it came out as the best pala dps belt in game. Will try to get some leather items and WE items into the model asap
#485SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavis Knight
If you have only 1 point in improved judgement, then the 4th example is the best one to use. If you have two points in improved judgement there is a slightly different cycle which has times between judgements alternating between 8 and 10 seconds (might be worth adding it Siguard?), but the end result is the same as example 4.
It is just that the spreadsheets look intimidating. I would like to try to condense that information into one or two simple rules to remember if possible.

What i got from the 4th one was:

Only use Crusader Strike if you have a Seal.

If this held true and all a paladin had to do was follow that single rule then it would be much easier to remember than the entire spreadsheet. (Which is perfect for a proof for the rule, but at the same time i think when most people look at it they may be turned off by it.)
#486SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Only use Crusader Strike if you have a Seal.
Because of this though don't you delay your judgement if it means you'll lose your SoC right as CS comes up? After all SoC>CS>JoC IIRC but SoC doesn't need casting if you don't JoC, meaning if your CS just came up, wait with the judge/reseal until after CS. Although I still wonder how you could juggle the seal time with a very slow weapon (as in, judge right after a swing, then reseal a few seconds later right before the next swing, giving you time to CS in between in certain situations).

Remember that while you need a 66s fight for that mana to be better than the DPS, in a 66s fight I would make sure I can even spend that much mana before the fight is over. The whole argument against int is in short fights mana doesn't get to the point of running out and on long fights it's insignificant compared to regen, and in both situations strength is just too good considering the portion of the DPS autoattack/SoC/CS make.

Let's take the extreme example of 5.7 DPS loss VS 530 mana. 530 is +1% to your mana (or you could calculate the exorcism damage it deals and divide by 10 minutes based on your spell damage). 5.7/1600=0.35% total DPS increase. Can 1% mana really increase your DPS by more than 0.35%? Or can the 530 mana deal more than 5.7*60*10=3420 damage? Don't think so, although you're free to verify
#487SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Just a quick note that was looking at leather Weapon Expertise and noticed that when Belt of 100 deaths was included in the model it came out as the best pala dps belt in game. Will try to get some leather items and WE items into the model asap
The endgame belt is more than likely to be [Red Belt of Battle] simply because it offers a blue gem slot, of which you need 2 to ensure that your metagem works. In the current spreadsheet [Boneweave Girdle] looks better dps-wise on paper but is actually not, due to lack of required gem slots.
#488SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
The endgame belt is more than likely to be [Red Belt of Battle] simply because it offers a blue gem slot, of which you need 2 to ensure that your metagem works. In the current spreadsheet [Boneweave Girdle] looks better dps-wise on paper but is actually not, due to lack of required gem slots.
You don't need 2 blue gem sockets for a meta gem to work just two blue gems. You can put blue gems in red sockets, or probably ideally use a couple of green gems in either yellow/blue sockets to get the yellow and blue requirements sorted with two gems.

In the next version, there will be a new belt in the sockets. Belt of 100 deaths. It's literally kicking every other belt's dps to a pulp.



@Lavis Knight - simple rules:0

1) Use CS each and every 6 seconds
2) Re-Seal the moment you cast judgement
3) Do **NOT** cast judgement in the 1.5seconds before CS becomes available or in the 1.5sec after using CS
#489SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Coefficients for rank 1 consecration: 46% for spell damage, 95% for JotC
#490SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Hustle
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
1) Use CS each and every 6 seconds
Anyone else worried about sustaining this? In Ret's current state, unless wisdom is judged on the target I can't sustain a mana pool even doing a simple rotation of crusader strikes and command judgments. Obviously on a single target boss where you're just swinging away at him it's likely wisdom will be judged and you'll keep it up with CS, but on fights where DPS is switching targets it's very possible that the other paladins will be occupied healing and will be unable to spare the global cooldown + travel time to judge it for you.

Granted you could judge it yourself, but then I wonder how much DPS you're losing doing wisdom instead of crusader. I guess maybe not more than you lose running out of mana, but that's ugly still. I want the raid to have my 3% crit debuff as well as the holy damage increase I enjoy.

Also, with regards to the discussion above about Divine Intellect, I would agree with the idea that it's generally not a useful talent for Retribution. A lot of what we're wearing is going to be "warrior gear" with no intellect, and the 10% will not make much difference when we're sporting already low values in this area. As protection, there are some bosses I can't sustain adding exorcism to my rotation when I'm tanking and getting loads of mana back, I can't imagine doing so as a Ret paladin with significantly less maximum mana and getting little to no mana from Spiritual Attunement.

Last edited by Hustle : 10/30/07 at 11:50 AM.
#491SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
#492SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Hustle View Post
Anyone else worried about sustaining this? In Ret's current state, unless wisdom is judged on the target I can't sustain a mana pool even doing a simple rotation of crusader strikes and command judgements. Obviously on a single target boss where you're just swinging away at him it's likely wisdom will be judged and you'll keep it up with CS, but on fights where DPS is switching targets it's very possible that the other paladins will be occupied healing and will be unable to spare the global cooldown + travel time to judge it for you.

Granted you could judge it yourself, but then I wonder how much DPS you're losing doing wisdom instead of crusader. I guess maybe not more than you lose running out of mana, but that's ugly still. I want the raid to have my 3% crit debuff as well as the holy damage increase I enjoy.
Right here is the main argument for wearing tier gear over warrior epics.

If you know its going to be hard keeping wisdom up on a fight (for one reason or another) you should first adjust your rotation. Cut out Judgement, downrank Seal of Command, don't use Consecration or Exorcism. Your DPS will suffer, but Crusader Strike is your first priority at all times. If you're still having problems you can chain chug mana pots instead of Haste Potions, again gimping your DPS but extending your DPS time greatly. If you have another pally in the raid to give you Salvation give yourself Blessing of Wisdom instead of Might or Kings. If worst comes to worst you can judge Wisdom yourself, but if you're in a situation where mana is that constraining I don't think it will help a great deal.

With 6500 mana (pretty much all warrior gear raid buffed) you can use Crusader Strike about 27 times (6 second cooldown assumed). Assuming absolutely no regen (worst case senario) and not using any other spells that means you can go for 2.7 minutes before running OOM. Assuming you're wearing 5/5 tier 6 instead of the warrior pieces for those slots (a net gain of 127 INT or 1905 mana, but still ignoring the regen on the legs) you would be able to get in 8 more Crusader Strikes, extending your time before OOM to 3.5 minutes.

Fortunately we do get a good deal of regen abilities (JoW, SA, BoW, Pots) to help us maintain our DPS cycles. Ideally your job as a DPS class is to run out of mana right as the boss dies. Anything that you have left over is wasted, but running out too early is bad as well.

Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
The effects of the old Imp. SotC have been rolled into the base spell. In other words, the version that you train is now as good as the Improved one was before.
#493SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
The patch notes state the talented SotC damage is now included in the base version of the spell.
#494SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
Absolutely nothing because part of that change involved increasing the baseline AP/SP bonus of Crusader by the 15% formerly provided by the talent.
#495SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
One other thing to note about JotC and modeling it for the spreadsheet, it is not increased by other % modifiers like sanctity aura, 2h spec, crusade and vengeance.
For JoC and sanctity aura currently the formula looks like:
(base dmg + (spell dmg + JotC) * 0.43) * 1.10
It should be:
(base dmg + spell dmg * 0.43) * 1.10 + 0.43 * JotC
This applies to all the spells that JotC effects. I'm not sure if other debuffs like misery apply to JotC damage or not.
#496SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by grover View Post
One other thing to note about JotC and modeling it for the spreadsheet, it is not increased by other % modifiers like sanctity aura, 2h spec, crusade and vengeance.
For JoC and sanctity aura currently the formula looks like:
(base dmg + (spell dmg + JotC) * 0.43) * 1.10
It should be:
(base dmg + spell dmg * 0.43) * 1.10 + 0.43 * JotC
This applies to all the spells that JotC effects. I'm not sure if other debuffs like misery apply to JotC damage or not.
Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR
#497SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Regarding this talk about not having JoW. How many fights can you think of where you won't be able to have both JotC and JoW up on the mob you are fighting (and it could potentially make a difference). The only fight i can think of is perhaps phase 2/3, but even then the healing in these phases is not exactly taking so i'm sure a pala friend wouldnt mind blowing a 1.5gcd every time you swap targets.

As far as i can see, JoW will almost always be on, and even if you can't have BoW, JoW+mana pot spam is enough to keep a SoC/JoC/CS rotation up for more than ten minutes in 0 int/mp5 gear.

I'm not anti tier gear. Getting two pieces for the nice bonus is well worth it, however getting 5/5 tier items and other ret pala gear for situational fights that challange the mana pool which hardly ever occurs seem unneccesary
#498SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR
I tested consecration and SoC but didn't actually test JoC. I was thinking that if it worked that way for 2 very different spells they would be consistent and apply it to all of them. Next time I'm on the PTR ill try to remember to test the others.
#499SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
You don't need 2 blue gem sockets for a meta gem to work just two blue gems. You can put blue gems in red sockets, or probably ideally use a couple of green gems in either yellow/blue sockets to get the yellow and blue requirements sorted with two gems.

In the next version, there will be a new belt in the sockets. Belt of 100 deaths. It's literally kicking every other belt's dps to a pulp.
Could this be when you're sitting hit-capped, and comparing Red Belt of Battle to Belt of 100 Deaths? If that were the case, I could easily see it.
If you're not hit-capped, however, the two belts shouldn't be that far off from each other. But I could see how expertise is really amazing.
#500SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Shalcker
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
1) Ticks outside the FSR - will be very minimal and very difficult to calculate
...
3) Time not dpsing - model is based on being able to constantly dps. Modeling time not dpsing would be very fight specific.
I don't think it's that difficult... if you use wws, you can just look at "dps time", invert percentage, multiply it by fight length, and that will be rough estimation of your time spent outside of FSR AND not dpsing, assuming that time spent dpsing is normal rotation that utilizes mana. Yes, it's extremely fight-specific, and can vary, but having optional field would be good... you need to calculate total spirit anyway to include benefit of Improved Divine Spirit, for example (it's ~19 extra spelldmg for human paladins with all buffs ), then it's just simple formula ((Spirit/5) + 15) for every two seconds spent outside of FSR...

Come to think of it, wouldn't you get one full spirit regen tick right before every second Crusader Strike (if you judge and/or consecrate every second cs)? Since crusader strike has 6sec cooldown, that's one second outside of FSR, though i'm not entirely sure in regen mechanics. Quick check seems to indicate that 2sec is independent timer, and you just need to be outside of FSR to get full benefit of it the moment it ticks. That means with cs priority rotation ret paladin either gets spirit tick every second CS (if you time judgements right), or get not spirit ticks at all...
#501SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Has it occured to anyone else that armor penetration is still awesome for retadins? I mean, with CS and white attacks combining for 70~75% of our dmg, armor penetration, in terms of itemization points, is actually a pretty efficient use of item budget, for both pvp (especially on clothies) and pve.

#502SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Warpony View Post
Was just about to add: Since when should we base our gear around Shade of Akama, possibly the shortest and most gimped fight in T6 content?

Take that 2000 mana (and it won't rly be that high, since i think 90% of us will go for 2-piece bonus) and spread it out over a 20m Illidan fight... I'd much prefeer the small dps increase from warrior items instead of dropping STR and Hit-rating just to push ~5 more exorsisms...
Yea it's an extreme example and I agree the exception shouldn't make the rule, you're right, however that goes both ways. I was offering a counter example to the "it's only 1% of your mana" post (which assumes 50000 mana regenned and a 10 minute fight).


Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Avitus, you take a very extreme example in the case of Illidari Shatterer vs T6. This one applies to you and only you imo. For me, the difference in both is about 35 DPS since don't have precision and I'm not hit capped. The math is never that simple and no real example would give you 5 dps for 530 mana tradeoff. In your case it's 5 dps vs 530 mana and 8 points spent in protection.
I'd argue that any pve build that does not include 8 points spent to get precision is using gimped gear since you'd have to spend a large amount of your gear on +hit to get the cap (instead of taking gear that gives you actual str/crit/agi), while at the same time those 8 points you free up cannot be spent anywhere where it increases your damage.



Anyway, as said, most of this is just an opinion/advice from my personal experience, I know what gear I'll stick to and I do believe the extra mana gives an edge, but I welcome others to try other routes in practice and prove me wrong.

One does not learn more from a discussion if we all just agree with eachother blindly
#503SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
@Myth123

What you have to remember for armour penetration is that we dont know how many points of armor penetration you get for one itemisation point.

There is a Graph Option labelled "Armour penetration / item point" in which you specify this number. If you specify a low number armour penetration looks bad, if you specify a high number it looks good. Until we know the exact numbers we won't know the value of it for retadins
#504SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Could this be when you're sitting hit-capped, and comparing Red Belt of Battle to Belt of 100 Deaths? If that were the case, I could easily see it.
If you're not hit-capped, however, the two belts shouldn't be that far off from each other. But I could see how expertise is really amazing.
Yes it was hit capped, but then it is fairly easy at that level to get hit capped
#505SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
@Myth123

What you have to remember for armour penetration is that we dont know how many points of armor penetration you get for one itemisation point.

There is a Graph Option labelled "Armour penetration / item point" in which you specify this number. If you specify a low number armour penetration looks bad, if you specify a high number it looks good. Until we know the exact numbers we won't know the value of it for retadins
I see.
#506SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Can't you calc armor penetration based on an item where you know the total ilvl minus what the other stats cost?
#507SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Aurius
Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.
#508SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Strifen
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.
Firstly, use seal of blood when you're doing raid DPS.

Secondly, enchant your gear and invest in some proper gems. You cant break 500dps because you have 5 pieces of gear unenchanted along with green gems. Your hit rating is very low, helm enchant will help that out. Look for any blue cloak on the AH with +hit and meele stats and keep an eye out for gear that has +hit on it. Replace leg enchant with the Ap/Crit one.
#509SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.
The only fights you shouldn't be using Blood on are those where you are in danger of killing yourself with the recoil; Prince, RoS phase 2 during Deaden, etc. Otherwise it will give you more stable threat as well as a higher sustained DPS.

After looking at your spec and gear I have few more suggestions too. Spec for Precision and possibly resocket some of your gear with +8 hit gems. Reaching the hit cap (or getting close to it) will improve your DPS a lot. I would also suggest, as a blood elf, to move away from the Spell Damage items you're wearing. Since you'll be using Seal of Blood as your main DPS ability the spell damage is mostly wasted. I would also try to run as many heroics as possible (Blood Furnace in particular) in order to upgrade your Breastplate and get the [Libram of Avengement].
#510SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Aurius
Thanks for the quick advice. Will be trying this. (And I know gear was very underdone. Was a fury warroir prior to the pally, and leveled the pally to help the raids when we had no pallys showing for raids and have been playing catchup on rep and gear ever since)
#511SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3grover
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR
I went out and tested JoC, SoC, SoV, JoV, CS, SoR and JoR. SoR is the only ability where modifiers increase the damage that JotC adds.
#512SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Teer
The s3 honor items have lost it spell damage aswell.

#513SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 _Retribute_
I was hearing this from multiple people that arena gear is actually the best itemized for ret. Does that mean you could probably raid in it? Im trying to bypass as much pve content for the least work. Hey I dont want to run kara 100 more times <>
#514SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Aurius
Dang that respec worked wonder. Hit 534 dps for thenight just by respeccing. (And first kill of leo, 2nd horde group on server to do it).

The s3 pvp gear looks great. Might have to start grinding av again pre-patch for the honor on those.
#515SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by _Retribute_ View Post
I was hearing this from multiple people that arena gear is actually the best itemized for ret. Does that mean you could probably raid in it? Im trying to bypass as much pve content for the least work. Hey I dont want to run kara 100 more times <>
Is it the best gear? No (other than the gloves, which are the best). Is it damn close to being the best gear? Yes. Even the season 2 set is better than anything you can get in Kara.
#516SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Season 2 set was by and large fairly competitive for t5 raiding. A selection of the s3 stuff, well, it currently looks like I'll be wearing it in t6 content even with the resilience weighing it down. The Vengeful Scaled chest and gloves are exceptional, and the honor reward boots will likely be worn too.

The honor belt is the best option for an int-granting belt too, beating out tidal call. RBoB is still the best for the slot, however.
#517SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
The s3 honor items have lost it spell damage aswell.
<images>
Hrm. Using MMO-Champion for the old stats:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...ndication2.jpg

Bracers:
-22 +dmg
+10 Str

Belt:
-30 +dmg
+13 Str

Boots
-30 +dmg
+13 Str


If they're changing ability mechanics, I want a preview already. = /
#518SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'd argue that any pve build that does not include 8 points spent to get precision is using gimped gear since you'd have to spend a large amount of your gear on +hit to get the cap (instead of taking gear that gives you actual str/crit/agi), while at the same time those 8 points you free up cannot be spent anywhere where it increases your damage.
Except that items such as Illidari Shatterer have the best stats in their slot even if you ignore the +hit they give.
As for 8 free points, you could e.g. use them to increase your PvP viability, or take both full Imp BoM and Benediction.
#519SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Now I finally found people to give proper test at PTR.

Rogue: Full tier 6 all possible BT epics from Illidan etc
Paladin: Full tier 5 + BT epics and TK/SSC
Warrior: Full Merciless + TK/SSC epics
Druid: Full Merciless + TK/SSC epics
Shaman: Random Kara epics + Merciless

WWS Report from the test.

#1 Massa 1981 (Rogue)
#2 Desdaaja 1548 (Paladin)
#3 Elitetwo 1288 (Warrior)
#4 Inach 1094 (Druid)
#5 Cortesz 811 (Shaman)

Test completed.
#520SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
1548 is insanely high for a paladin with t5, that's higher than full t5 rogues. Damn, this is going to be a good patch for ret paladins, I wonder if they intended for the buffs to be this big.

Woah NM, blasted lands mobs. I am curious to see what the numbers will be like in raids.
#521SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
1548 is insanely high for a paladin with t5, that's higher than full t5 rogues. Damn, this is going to be a good patch for ret paladins, I wonder if they intended for the buffs to be this big.

Woah NM, blasted lands mobs. I am curious to see what the numbers will be like in raids.
Thats why I took insanely, perfectly geared rogue to give comparison point. The fight is equal for both of us and I had Righteous fury up to make sure he can backstab as much as possible. All I wanted to see is how I compare under those circumstances to extremely well geared rogue. Remember that bossfight gives negative effects in avoidance to both players, but I would gain spell damage related benefits and almost unlimited mana. Changing the same test to boss would have little to no effect to our relative DPS. And if some, it would boost my dps more than hes.
#522SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Thats why I took insanely, perfectly geared rogue to give comparison point. The fight is equal for both of us and I had Righteous fury up to make sure he can backstab as much as possible. All I wanted to see is how I compare under those circumstances to extremely well geared rogue. Remember that bossfight gives negative effects in avoidance to both players, but I would gain spell damage related benefits and almost unlimited mana. Changing the same test to boss would have little to no effect to our relative DPS. And if some, it would boost my dps more than hes.
I am not convinced that relative damage stays the same at different levels of mitigation though, but if it did, that's a huge buff - that puts you at roughly 75% of a very well geared rogue's damage. Right now our ret paladin does roughly 900-950 DPS with windfury and our rogues are around 1450-1500. Going from 66% to 75% is a pretty big change if this pans out.
#523SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Here is example of hes gear level compared to mine (zero T6 at PTR).

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/ww...test_rogue.jpg
#524SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
Where did you do this test? Blasted Lands? Did you tanked the mob? If yes then you have increased dps because of parry counterattack.
#525SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Argavaine View Post
Where did you do this test? Blasted Lands? Did you tanked the mob? If yes then you have increased dps because of parry counterattack.
And are those 7 parried attacks significant portion of the damage? Is it more than the fact that I didnt have JotC judged for spell damage and crit? Were some stars not aligned properly to my favor?

Last edited by Cromfel : 10/31/07 at 1:33 PM.
#526SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
And are those 7 parried attacks significant portion of the damage? Is it more than the fact that I didnt have JotC judged for spell damage and crit? Were some stars not aligned properly to my favor?
Stop trying to get us nerfed Cromfel. We still need an AP>spdmg talent or some kind of mana regen (like crusade=5/10/15% of our strength is converted to mana 5, or 1/2/3% of holy dmg done is converted to mana).
#527SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Agonar
...

Last edited by Agonar : 10/31/07 at 3:33 PM. Reason: Reply was not necessary finally...
#528SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
@Cromfel
Please dont feel offended :-) . I am absolutly pro paladin dmg and will get a try as ret in my BT raiding guild after 2.3 is out. I also do 1000 - 1100 dps with my mostly merc gear in blasted lands but if you compare your damage to other classes I want to be sure that you have considered everything.

7 parries seem to be not very much for such a long fight because you should have pretty high parry rating vs this mobs. Is this number sure or just a guess?
which rang of conc did you used? 50 damage/tick without JoCr is very high with rang 1 you need almost 500 spelldmg+vengeance+aura.
#529SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Argavine, I think your 500 spell damage to get ticks of 50 is a little off. Remember than JotC damage does not suffer from downranking at low levels (but doesnt get % modifiers). Assuming he also have vengeance on most of the time to get rank 1 to tick for 50 only needs jotc and about 175 spell damage
#530SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Argavaine
Yes with JotC it is no problem (i get 52 ticks with 195 spelldmg + veng + aura) but without it you need pretty much spelldmg and Cromfel wrote that he didn`t use JotC.

Last edited by Argavaine : 10/31/07 at 4:27 PM.
#531SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Ah completely missed that sorry. In that case 50 does seem quite high
#532SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Habaka
Which potion do you think is better for a SoB and SoC using pala, Haste or Heroic pot? I'm guessing the Heroic one, after the reply I got from Bellator on haste, but you never know, the haste pot does have pretty nice ammount of haste for SoB atleast

Bellator, Any chance you could add [Haste Potion] and [Heroic Potion] estimations to the Spreadsheet?

Last edited by Habaka : 10/31/07 at 5:00 PM.
#533SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xellos
I used Bellator's dps spreadsheet to calculate how much imp.windfury would increase my dps over not having windfury. I used both my current gear and my desired gear with buffs you would expect to see from a shaman, rogue x2, fury warrior group. In both cases, the difference was around 100 dps. This seemed low to me so I ask, "Does this reflect reality?" I would love to see any WWS that shows the difference.
#534SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Anyarede
Couple issues with the Spreadsheet as I've seen.

Stalker's War Bands dont currently have a Gem slot, and dont appear to be receiving one on PTR.

When selecting 'None' for a Gem slot plops a huge 16 int and 17 str instead which did affect the DPS output at the top.

Also are there any plans to add Vindicators Scaled/Plate and Neck/Rings?

Last edited by Anyarede : 10/31/07 at 6:46 PM.
#535SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
Which potion do you think is better for a SoB and SoC using pala, Haste or Heroic pot? I'm guessing the Heroic one, after the reply I got from Bellator on haste, but you never know, the haste pot does have pretty nice ammount of haste for SoB atleast

Bellator, Any chance you could add [Haste Potion] and [Heroic Potion] estimations to the Spreadsheet?
I've never even seen a Heroic Pot before, but chugging haste pots is a huge DPS increase for both alliance and BE pallys. I would assume that a BE using SoB would get more out of it though. As for Heroic Potions, the extra 140 AP seems nice, but having no experience with them I can't say whether or not they're better than haste pots.
#536SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Hmm, isn't Insane Strength pot better than those 2? 120 str>all
#537SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Hmm, isn't Insane Strength pot better than those 2? 120 str>all
Yes it is, but I for one have had a huge struggle to find anyone on my server who could make these... especially a pot master. Nobody seems to have the recipe, but I can find tons of people with haste/heroic pot recipes. I would assume that would be the best choice though. If anyone has some math though that would be great

I suppose the hardest part about calculating that would be that the haste pot would scale based on what gear you had, so it would be slightly had to get a solid number on the dps increase with that.
#538SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Hmm, isn't Insane Strength pot better than those 2? 120 str>all
Well its most definitely better than the Heroic Potion.

However, you have to weigh the relative vales of both pots. Is the the 264 AP better than ~25% quicker attack speeds? I'm sure Bellator or someone will crunch some numbers and give you a definitive answer, but my gut reaction remains with the Haste Pots. That much free speed seems like it will make a larger difference than extra attack power over a short period of time.
#539SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3slashbot
I recently got ahold of Shady Dealer's Pantaloons - Items - World of Warcraft and i was wondering how big of an upgrade if any Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft would be. Also, how do i get it to just embed the item link in a post to where you can hover over it and see it?
#540SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3CaptBooyah
Adding mana/5 gem choices to the spreadsheet would be beneficial to help ppl to see how long they can last with just a few gem changes. Maybe consecration/exorcism added in the calculations as well?

I'd love the day when I don't have to include mana pots into my rotation and could use haste instead =P
#541SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by slashbot View Post
I recently got ahold of Shady Dealer's Pantaloons - Items - World of Warcraft and i was wondering how big of an upgrade if any Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft would be. Also, how do i get it to just embed the item link in a post to where you can hover over it and see it?
[ item ] and [ /item ] (without the spaces of course)

As for the pants, the Divine Retribution will get you more AP, but not by a large margin. The extra crit from the Dealer's is very nice as well. Both look like good choices, though I always lean towards plate over leather simply for PvP (thats just me).
#542SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Would like to see some unique gems added to the spreadsheet: red +24 AP and yellow +12 crit (jewelcrafter only gems), as well as 5 str/4 agi and 5 crit/2 mp5 (unique drops from heroic SV).
#543SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Teer
And speaking of gems, you couldn't change standard gems to rare quality ones? Don't think the majority that use the spreadsheet is in BT/Hyjal yet.

I'm jewelcrafter myself so adding those unique as mentioned above would be nice
#544SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
If you know your way around excel... right click any of the tabs and Unhide DPS sheet. You can edit the list of items inside.

I'd recommend editing existing items if you're not familiar with excel modelling.

bellator hid those sheets for a reason so edit at your own risk.
#545SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
madmardigan83
Judgement of Light

When I noticed the Mp5 stats that JoW applies to the raid, I was taken aback by how much mp5 it adds! I knew it was good, but the numbers really hit it home that having JoW up all the time is a wise move. (I never get to say "Wisdom is up, wand for mana" like in the MC/BWL days)

However, do we have any numbers regarding JoL as well? In fights like Void Reaver where multiple people take dmg in melee, having Light up would be a nice benifit. I'd be ok with crunching the numbers myself, but I'm really not familier with shot rotations on all of the classes etc. The search function didn't show anything up either.

Thanks much!

EDIT: Alrighty, new to this forum so I just found the "Search this thread" button

Looks like we have a few HPS numbers for JoL, but no theory crafted ones like JoW just yet, but it looks like someone is working on them, so I'll just be patient and grateful

Last edited by madmardigan83 : 11/01/07 at 10:35 AM.
#546SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
Looks like we have a few HPS numbers for JoL, but no theory crafted ones like JoW just yet, but it looks like someone is working on them, so I'll just be patient and grateful
Since the proc rate is the same, you can go by the values restored and scale them. IE: since we know that with Wisdom someone gets 74 mana per each successful hit where it procs, and Light grants 95 health, the player would gain 28% more health than mana.

So let's say that the JoW mp/5 is 200. The JoL number hp/5 would be 256.

Does that sound feasible?
#547SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
However, do we have any numbers regarding JoL as well? In fights like Void Reaver where multiple people take dmg in melee, having Light up would be a nice benifit. I'd be ok with crunching the numbers myself, but I'm really not familier with shot rotations on all of the classes etc. The search function didn't show anything up either.
The problem with theorycrafting JoL numbers is that your attack speed can vary greatly from class to class and even player to player depending on your weapons and gear. Its hard to say "a Fury Warrior will get X Hp5" because of that fact. JoW is much easier to calculate because no matter where you go every fire mage will have a 3 second cast Fireball (ignoring haste of course, which I always do when I'm figuring out these things).

But if you want some numbers for fairly typical weapon speeds:
1.5 seconds = 126.67 Hp5
1.8 seconds = 105.56 Hp5
2.2 Seconds = 86.36 Hp5
2.6 seconds = 73.08 Hp5
3.3 seconds = 57.57 Hp5
3.8 seconds = 50 Hp5

All assuming perfect proc rate (40%), no misses, etc. This is also single weapons, if you're wielding two 1.5 speed weapons you would theoretically get double the amount of Hp5. Just as with Judgement of Wisdom, the faster you're hitting the mob the more you're getting out of it.

You reminded me that I need to do the warlock JoW still. I'll get on that asap.

Quick Edit:
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Since the proc rate is the same, you can go by the values restored and scale them. IE: since we know that with Wisdom someone gets 74 mana per each successful hit where it procs, and Light grants 95 health, the player would gain 28% more health than mana.
Unless anyone has some evidence proving otherwise JoW is a 50% proc chance whereas JoL is a 40%.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/01/07 at 3:37 PM.
#548SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
I always assumed both JoW and JoL had 50% proc chance

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Judgement of Wisdom
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Judgement of Light
#549SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Judgement of Light - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

I think we might need to test this out.
#550SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xellos
Does JoW have a chance to proc off each tick of DoT spells?
#551SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Does JoW have a chance to proc off each tick of DoT spells?
Only initial cast. Same with channeled aoe spells (Havent tested, basing on Conse) and channeled dd spells (except arcane missile).
#552SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3madmardigan83
[quote=flyingtoastr;533979]

All assuming perfect proc rate (40%), no misses, etc. This is also single weapons, if you're wielding two 1.5 speed weapons you would theoretically get double the amount of Hp5. Just as with Judgement of Wisdom, the faster you're hitting the mob the more you're getting out of it.

QUOTE]

Is there any off-hand reduction on JoW and JoL procs when DWing? (the same way an off hand has a greater chance to miss, it has a less chance to proc JoW/JoL?)


Thanks for the info on the weapon speeds, once we make sure its 40 or 50%, we'll be able to nail it down for sure the final numbers.
#553SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Looks like JoL is about a 50% proc rate. Sample space is small but it shows that its a lot closer to 50% than 40%.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/01/07 at 4:54 PM.
#554SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
New JoL numbers based on the 50% proc rate:
Weapon speed:
1.5 seconds = 158.33 Hp5
1.8 seconds = 131.94 Hp5
2.2 Seconds = 107.95 Hp5
2.6 seconds = 91.35 Hp5
3.3 seconds = 71.97 Hp5
3.8 seconds = 62.5 Hp5

Assumed perfect 50% proc rate, perfect 100% hit chance, no haste effects, etc. Duel Wielding should give (theoretically) the sum of the two weapon's effects (e.x. a 1.5 and a 1.8 will give 158.33 + 131.94 = 290.27 Hp5).

Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
Is there any off-hand reduction on JoW and JoL procs when DWing? (the same way an off hand has a greater chance to miss, it has a less chance to proc JoW/JoL?)
For the theorycraft numbers I'm pretending you are so perfectly hit capped you have a 100% chance to hit with every attack. Therefore the numbers would be the same for MH and OH weapons. In practice you will see less procs from your OH due to the greater inherent miss chance with off-handed weapons.
#555SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Is there anything remarkable what we should add to the 1st post? Is it lacking something obvious? If so, what stuff?

My time is limited on creating new stuff on the original post. I will be doing more after patch 2.3 hits live but it doesnt mean other Paladins cant submit important stuff to be added. Please post here or send me PM if you have anything you feel worth adding. I will check this topic on daily basis, so updates will be added as soon as people submit informative blocks.
#556SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
everwatch
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Don't feed the trolls.

Updated the JoW list to include what I think is about right for Enhancement Shamans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Enhancement (Duel Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Both the Shadow Priest and Arcane Mage spell rotations are very complicated and vary greatly depending on fight and spec, so take those numbers with the largest grain of salt possible.
Enhancement Shaman weapon speed range from 2.6 to 2.8 base if they're high end raiding and know what they're doing. They also have so much crit as to keep their 30% Flurry haste bonus up at all times. Enhance Shaman end game tend to be very high crit with fully raid buffs. I sit at 40-50% crit in raids personally. You need to take into account their haste for their weapon swings.

WF weapon imbues for a DW Enhance Shaman is at a 36% proc rate, not 40%.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/01/07 at 9:10 PM.
#557SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Rob
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
For the theorycraft numbers I'm pretending you are so perfectly hit capped you have a 100% chance to hit with every attack. Therefore the numbers would be the same for MH and OH weapons. In practice you will see less procs from your OH due to the greater inherent miss chance with off-handed weapons.
MH and OH weapons have an identical chance to hit. Both hands are penalized by 19% for dual wielding.
Originally Posted by everwatch
They also have so much crit as to keep their 30% Flurry haste bonus up at all times.
I'd say that 85% is a realistic Flurry uptime with T5-level gear and standard buffs (i.e. Kings and MotW but no Agi elixirs, no GoA, no LoTP).
#558SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by everwatch View Post
Enhancement Shaman weapon speed range from 2.6 to 2.8 base if they're high end raiding and know what they're doing. They also have so much crit as to keep their 30% Flurry haste bonus up at all times. Enhance Shaman end game tend to be very high crit with fully raid buffs. I sit at 40-50% crit in raids personally. You need to take into account their haste for their weapon swings.

WF weapon imbues for a DW Enhance Shaman is at a 36% proc rate, not 40%.
I do not need to nor plan to include haste effects into my examples.

I have said it numerous times, and frankly I am getting sick of repeating it. Haste effects are not included in any of the Judgement of Wisdom calculations. It complicates things without due reason and, especially for effects like Flurry (where you uptime varies greatly from player to player depending on your gear level), results in wildly different numbers for each person.

The purpose of these numbers was never meant to be any more than basic baseline examples, as in "if you attack at this speed using these attacks you can theoretically get this kind of regen." If you would like to know exactly how much mana you will be getting from a judged target I encourage you to work it out yourself or PM me and I'll be happy to do it for you.

As for WF, I will change that next time I update the list.
#559SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Elzam
Perhaps I missed it amongst the thread and it hasn't had a chance to be updated on the original post, but is there a copy of the spreadsheet that contains the new values for the season 3 gear and perhaps includes Season 3 weapons? I am intrigued to see numerically how much more the change in itemization would help the DPS of SoB PvE Paladins given the increase in strength and drop-off of SD.
#560SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Elzam,

There is a revised version coming soon (i know it's been a while since the last) which has lots of new items statistical analysis etc. Will try and get it out today or over the weekend at latest
#561SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay with getting a new version of this sheet out. However the good news is that every time I make what i deem to be a substantial addition i give it a new version number. This is Version 23, so hopefully lots of new goodies to please you (and likely some minor bugs that I missed).

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

There are lots of minor changes. Here are the major ones:-

1) Database Changes:-

A) The hidden item database has now had a makeover which should make it easier for those brave enough to mess with it to figure out how it works without creating loads of error messages.

B) When selecting items in character sheet there are now splits by plate/mail/leather etc

C) Tier 6 leather is included (hopefully tier 4/5 will come later)

D) Season 3 gladiator gear, honor gear and weapons are included

E) JC only gems and some unique dungeon dropped gems are included


2) Character Sheet Mechanics Changes - ***Big Changes***

A) There is box near the top of the sheet labelled "Spare Mana Dps (SoC)". This box assumes the fight is 10 minutes long. Based on the playstlye of JoC/SoC/CS, mana regen, and mana pool is calculates:-
i) "Mps Spare" - how much extra mana per second you have to use on consecration/exorcism
ii) "Cons (Min)" - It attributes spare mps to this ability until it would be used on cooldown and calculates the dps is provided
iii) "Exorcism - Any extra mana spare is attributed to exorcisms and it's dps calculated
iv) "Mps Left" - it then tells you if you have any mps left after using consecration and exorcism on cooldown

B) The very top "Total Dps" box now lists the SoC dps from a normal rotation, the extra dps you get as explained in 2A), and then the grand total of these two combined

C) When using the Item calc, it now compares items based on the Total Dps including consecration and exorcism, thus giving Int/Mp5 items more weight.

D) Just above the Graph Calc section is a button labelled "Str/Crit POI". This stands for the strength/crit point of intersection. This is basically a bit of fun and tells you (based on your current gear etc) what AP you need to have in order for 1 Crit rating to be more valueable than 1AP.


3) Character Sheet Additions

A) Weapon expertise has been added and is included in the graph at the end (it's the dog's)

B) Haste/Heroic/Insance Strength pots have been added. Remember you can only have one, and there is the Mana pot option in the "playstyle" section as well, so dont have 2 pots active....thats cheating

C) Mongoose and Executioner have been added. These are base on 1ppm, with 40 hits per minute (this is accurate based on SoC/JoC/CS/WF spam playstyle). However it might overvalue them slightly if you dont spam JoC etc. Having them based on actual ppm made excel run very slowly (and also is difficult to model for mongoose seeing as the haste proc will change the hits per min)

D) "Best of the Best" has been relabelled "Warrior Gear". If anyone asks "Why is Lightbringer included in 'Warrior Gear' i will personally give you the 'wow experience' and show you what an axe to the face does to your health! :p


4) Minor Changes

A) Stalker's War Bands have had blue socket removed

B) Selecting "None" for a gem slot won't give you free Int/Stam

C) Lots of minor tweaks i've probably forgotten about


5) Important Notes

A) The "Item Calculation" tool still bases dps value based on socketing all strength gems and not correct gems to get set bonus. It's more often the case that strength gems are betetr than correct gems. Whilst not always true the way item socketing it done makes it a complete pain to socket correctly per item. The end results would probably be the same just slightly different value

B)***Important*** The model still assumes that extra damage caused from JotC can be effected by % modifiers even though this is not the case. When all the dps calculations were set up this was not known and the way they were all set up makes this minor thing a major pain in the ass to change. However please note that since this is a static value then the results shown within the spreadsheet are stil all valid relative to one another, just that the overall dps might be smarginally higher than you can expect. But this is only a small difference so please dont let it dissuade you from using this tool.

Anyway, Enjoy

Bellator
#562SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3myth123
Vindicator and Veteran's Scaled bracers have Y sockets instead of y sockets. (the Y doesn't work)
#563SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
Vindicator and Veteran's Scaled bracers have Y sockets instead of y sockets. (the Y doesn't work)
Cheers. Will be fixed in next version
#564SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Has anyone ever tried modeling the personal DPS loss for using [Nightfall] versus the potential gain of the proc?


I'm curious if there's a reason to try to GM that item back.


Compared to the [Hammer of the Naaru] I'm using now, it has .1 less AS (less WF/SoC damage), 52~ less weapon DPS, and no stats.


On the flipside, if I could boost the DPS of mage/locks by 15%, say 50% of the time...
#565SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Carpathia
Has anyone figured out how to get Bellator's sheet working with the german version of Excel 2003 ?
When i'm trying to use the buttons "Show Detail" "Strength Gems" "Correct Gems" or "Analyse Items" i get this error message : "Laufzeitfehler 1004 : Die Methode 'Range' für das Objekt '_Global' ist fehlgeschlagen" (which is roughly translated : "Runtime error 1004: The method 'Range' for the object '_Global' failed.").
I've reinstalled Execel, installed the service packs and updates but the error message persists, with all versions of the sheet.

Thanks in advance
#566SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
I gave a solution once, go to Options->Transition and check "Transition formula entry".
#567SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
On the flipside, if I could boost the DPS of mage/locks by 15%, say 50% of the time...
The proc has maybe 5-15% uptime, the proc rate scaled down with level. I think it's worth something like 2% overall increased magical damage on the target.

Basically, it's no longer worth it unless your personal dmg is less than like 300 DPS in your real suit.
#568SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
ein3360
Okay, so small question about weapons. Between the blacksmithing weapons and instance drops up to say SSC/TK, what would the better choice be to use? A couple of the people in my guild are saying the the [Hammer of the Naaru] is a better choice than the [Lionheart Executioner] or [Stormherald]. What are your views on the subject?

Last edited by ein3360 : 11/03/07 at 9:21 AM.
#569SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Habaka
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
Okay, so small question about weapons. Between the blacksmithing weapons and instance drops up to say SSC/TK, what would the better choice be to use? A couple of the people in my guild are saying the the [Hammer of the Naaru] is a better choice than the [Lionheart Executioner] or [Stormherald]. What are your views on the subject?
Well, a good rule of the tumb is usually, that if a weapon is better for a warrior over something else, so will it be for you...

And just a quick glance over the items pretty obviously tells you, that Both of the crafted weapons would result in better dps than [Hammer of the Naaru].

Even if [Hammer of the Naaru] indeed has some spelldamage, intellect and sockets, I'm pretty sure it wont be enough to counter the loss of dps from the 2 crafted weapons.

Also PvE wise, the proc is quite nice on the sword and PvP wise, the mace has very very nice stamina and the stun will allow you to drop more extra damage JoC bursts that you'll need.

Just my thoughts though.
#570SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xellos
[Lionheart Executioner] is the winner for pve. The proc is up for about half the time, so it's like having a static 50 str while fighting. The proc is also altered by kings.
#571SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by ein3360 View Post
Okay, so small question about weapons. Between the blacksmithing weapons and instance drops up to say SSC/TK, what would the better choice be to use? A couple of the people in my guild are saying the the [Hammer of the Naaru] is a better choice than the [Lionheart Executioner] or [Stormherald]. What are your views on the subject?
BS weapons are far superior. Technically by stats LHE is better, but that extra stamina on Stormherald comes in very very useful on many fights. Personal choice in my opinion, you can't go wrong with either one.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/03/07 at 4:24 PM.
#572SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
DarKNecross
Rechecking

Last edited by DarKNecross : 11/03/07 at 3:24 PM.
#573SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
CaptBooyah
Noticed that the mana/5 gems also provide me with 8 +hit

Not that Im complaining if that happened ingame but I think it might be a mistake for the spreadsheet.

Thanks very much to everyone for the sheer bulk of work done for this thread. It's really helped me make the decision whether to take the plunge of ret... at least at this rate I dont see it overly supportive enough to give up my first/second place on healer charts. Maybe just one more really cool thing that is deep in the ret tree will change my mind.

Last edited by CaptBooyah : 11/05/07 at 1:42 AM.
#574SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anyarede
Some more minor things on the spread sheet to be anal retentive about:
Justicar Greaves Spelling

Gem bonus for weapons doesnt seem to either be displaying properly or working correctly -
possibly due to the change to 4 gem locations?

Vindicators Scaled Bracers and Pendant of Triumph both need Lookup Info for Loc and MyLoc

Items to consider Including:
Spellsword's Mark of the Redemption (Quest Ring)
Amani Mask of Death (Badges - Plate)
Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate (Badges - Plate)
Bloodthirster's Wargreaves (Badges - Plate)
Chain of Unleashed Rage (Badges - Plate)
Eternium Rage Shackles (Badges - Plate)
#575SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Taba
So I was in SSC tonight on Vashj, (Pre-2.3) and had noticed that i had 34% Glancing Blows.

Is that normal? IT seemed to be a huge damper on my actual DPS, and I was wondering, how, as a paladin, do we get that number down?
#576SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hawaiisb
I have been running DPS tests on the ptr with me and a fury warrior I was coming up consistently with 1050 dps.

My stats are: 31.42% crit and 1902 AP with might. I was getting battle shout so I guess I had almost 2200 AP for my tests.

My general rules are: judge crusader then CS and then as soon as judgment c/d was up I would wait for my next swing and then judge right after and get command up asap. If CS was ticking off right when I could judge I would wait to judge first and then CS because chances are CS would put me on gcd and then I wouldnt be able to get a judgement off til another swing.

I was spamming rank 1 concecration which I would use every time I judged since they share same c/d. I usually concecration and then judge right away since it doesnt have gcd. And then by the time I was done clicking judgement I could load up command right away usually since gcd from concecration would be up. I also was spamming max rank command.

All in all I expected higher dps than that after seeing what all you guys did. Do you guys just think that you got in the 1500's because you flasked and stuff? Or am I doing something fundamentally wrong.
#577SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Cheers for feedback on latest version of dps file, will try to get a bug fixed next version out soon.

Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
All in all I expected higher dps than that after seeing what all you guys did. Do you guys just think that you got in the 1500's because you flasked and stuff? Or am I doing something fundamentally wrong.
You said you were running with about 2200AP. In the test cromfel did for example he had warrior/enchance shaman etc. I would guess his AP was pushing 4000 which would be the difference in dps
#578SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
hawaiisb, you're losing a lot of DPS from not having SoC up all the time. Make a macro that judges and reseals and use only that.
#579SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
I will add this to the original post. If someone wants to do more accurate comparison, feel free to do so.

Weapon Comparison - Author: Thoridon

Bear in mind this is for autoattack and SoC only, doesn't include things like CS, armour penetration, target's armour mitigation, trinkets etc. Also has fixed ap/crit, no group buffs and such involved. It's not a comprehensive set of calcs, but does show the base mechanics for autoattack/SoC like that wiki link you referred to.

To get a real comparison you'd have to calc your full dps with your equipment set and buffs, and they see how each weapon changes your dps for that. Also, these calcs were made a while ago (except new weapons which I added in when they were introduced) and I'm not happy with how I implemented the Lionheart proc - I think my section of calcs on the proc itself is wrong, surely can't add that much dps.

Assuming:

2000 Attack Power
30% crit chance

1. Lionheart Executioner
Weaponsmith Crafted, Sword
365-549 raw damage, 3.7 speed (126.9 raw dps)
Average Damage = 457

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.6 = +514 damage

+52 Strength (weapon), 57 / 7 = 8.1 dps * 3.6 = +29 damage

Total Damage = 457 + 514 + 29 = 998
Crit = 30 + (44/25=1.76) (weapon), 998 * 1.3176 = 1317 damage
1317 / 3.6 = 366 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.6 / 8.57 = 42.0% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1317 * 0.7 * 0.42 = 387 damage
387 / 3.6 = 108 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Lionheart = 1317 + 387 = 1704
Total DPS for Lionheart = 366 + 108 = 474

Chance on hit: Increases Strength by 100 for 10 sec.

When procced,

100 / 7 = 14.3 * 3.6 * 1.3176 = 67 extra damage + 1317 = 1384
1384 * 0.7 * 0.42 = 407

Able to get 2 hits in per proc, increased damage from proc:

(1384-1317)+(407-387)*2 = +174 damage
174 / 3.6 = +48 dps if constantly procced

Assuming 3 proc per minute,
20 / 3.6 = 5.6 possible hits. 2 hits during proc length.
2 / 5.6 = 0.357
48 * 0.357 = +17 average dps increase from the proc
17 * 3.6 = +61 average damage

New totals factoring in the proc:

Combined Damage for Lionheart with proc = 1317 + 387 + 61 = 1765
Total DPS for Lionheart with proc = 366 + 108 + 17 = 491




2. Stormherald
Weaponsmith Crafted, Mace
386-579 raw damage, 3.8 speed (127.0 raw dps)
Average Damage = 483

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.8 = +543 damage

+42 Strength (weapon), 46 / 7 = 6.6 dps * 3.8 = +25 damage

Total Damage = 483 + 543 + 25 = 1051
Crit = 30 + (42/25=1.6Cool (weapon), 1051 * 1.3168 = 1384 damage
1384 / 3.8 = 364 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.8 / 8.57 = 44.3% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1384 * 0.7 * 0.443 = 429 SoC damage
429 / 3.8 = 113 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Stormherald = 1384 + 429 = 1813
Total DPS for Stormherald = 364 + 113 = 477




3. Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse
Drop - Zul'Aman, Sword
380-570 raw damage, 3.7 speed (128.4 raw dps)
Average Damage = 475

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.7 = +529 damage

+120 AP (weapon), 120 / 14 = 8.6 dps * 3.7 = +32 damage

Total Damage = 475 + 529 + 32 = 1036
Crit = 30, 1036 * 1.3 = 1347 damage
Haste = 45, 45 / 15.77 = 2.85%
1360 / (3.7*0.9715=3.595) = 378 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.595 / 8.57 = 42.0% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1347 * 0.7 * 0.42 = 396 SoC damage
396 / 3.595 = 110 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Jin'rokh = 1347 + 396 = 1743
Total DPS for Jin'rokh = 378 + 110 = 488




4. Soul Cleaver
Drop - Black Temple, Axe
386-579 raw damage, 3.7 speed (130.4 raw dps)
Average Damage = 483

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.7 = +529 damage

+65 Strength (weapon), 72 / 7 = 10.2 dps * 3.7 = +38 damage

Total Damage = 483 + 529 + 38 = 1050
Crit = 30, 1050 * 1.3 = 1364 damage
1364 / 3.7 = 369 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.7 / 8.57 = 43.2% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1364 * 0.7 * 0.432 = 412 SoC damage
412 / 3.7 = 111 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Soul Cleaver = 1364 + 412 = 1776
Total DPS for Soul Cleaver = 368 + 111 = 480




5. Twinblade of the Phoenix
Drop - Tempest Keep, Sword
375-564 raw damage, 3.6 speed (130.4 raw dps)
Average Damage = 470

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.6 = +514 damage

Gems: +8 str, +4 str/+4 crit, +4 str/+6 stam (+8 AP socket bonus)

+16 Strength (weapon), 18 / 7 = 2.6 dps * 3.6 = +9 damage
+118 AP (weapon), 118 / 14 = 8.4 dps * 3.6 = +30 damage

Total Damage = 470 + 514 + 9 + 30 = 1023
Crit = 30 + (41/22.1=1.86) (weapon), 1023 * 1.3186 = 1349 damage
1349 / 3.6 = 374 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.6 / 8.57 = 42.0% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1349 * 0.7 * 0.42 = 397 damage
397 / 3.6 = 110 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Twinblade = 1349 + 397 = 1746
Total DPS for Twinblade = 374 + 110 = 484




6. Cataclysm's Edge
Drop - Hyjal, Sword
386-580 raw damage, 3.5 speed (138.0 raw dps)
Average Damage = 483

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.6 = +500 damage

+75 Strength (weapon), 83 / 7 = 11.9 dps * 3.5 = +42 damage

Total Damage = 483 + 500 + 42 = 1025
Crit = 30, 1025 * 1.3 = 1333 damage
1333 / 3.5 = 381 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.5 / 8.57 = 40.8% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1333 * 0.7 * 0.408 = 381 damage
381 / 3.5 = 109 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Cataclysm = 1333 + 381 = 1714
Total DPS for Cataclysm = 381 + 109 = 490




7. Torch of the Damned
Drop - Black Temple, Mace
396-595 raw damage, 3.8 speed (130.4 raw dps)
Average Damage = 496

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.8 = +543 damage

+51 Strength (weapon), 56 / 7 = 8.0 dps * 3.8 = +30 damage

Total Damage = 496 + 543 + 25 = 1064
Crit = 30 + (38/22.1=1.72) (weapon), 1064 * 1.3172 = 1402 damage
Haste = 50, 50 / 15.77 = 3.17%
1402 / (3.8*0.9683=3.6Cool = 381 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.68 / 8.57 = 43.0% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1402 * 0.7 * 0.43 = 422 SoC damage
422 / 3.68 = 115 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Torch = 1402 + 422 = 1824
Total DPS for Torch = 381 + 115 = 496





8. Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword
Arena - 1850 Rating, Sword
386-580 raw damage, 3.6 speed (134.2 raw dps)
Average Damage = 483

2000 AP = 2000 / 14 = 142.9 dps
142.9 * 3.6 = +514 damage

+46 Strength (weapon), 51 / 7 = 7.2 dps * 3.6 = +26 damage

Total Damage = 483 + 514 + 26 = 1023
Crit = 30 + (46/22.1=2.0Cool (weapon), 1023 * 1.3208 = 1351 damage
Hit = (15/15.77=0.95), 1351 * 1.0095 = 1364
1364 / 3.6 = 379 Weapon DPS

SoC = 7ppm, 60 / 7 = 8.57
3.6 / 8.57 = 42.0% chance to proc per hit

SoC damage = 70% of normal damage

1364 * 0.7 * 0.42 = 401 damage
401 / 3.6 = 111 SoC DPS

Combined Damage for Gladiator's = 1364 + 401 = 1765
Total DPS for Gladiator's = 379 + 111 = 490



Top Damage per Hit:
1) Torch of the Damned - 1824
2) Stormherald - 1813
3) Soul Cleaver - 1776*
4) Vengeful Gladiator's - 1765*
5) Lionheart Executioner - 1765
6) Twinblade of the Phoenix - 1746
7) Jin'rokh, The Great Apocalypse - 1743
Cool Cataclysm's Edge - 1714*

Top DPS:
1) Torch of the Damned - 496
2) Lionheart Executioner - 491 (proc may not be calced right for this one)
3) Vengeful Gladiator's - 490*
4) Cataclysm's Edge - 490*
5) Jin'rokh, The Great Apocalypse - 488
6) Twinblade of the Phoenix - 484
7) Soul Cleaver - 480*
Cool Stormherald - 477

* Has armour negation I haven't factored in.
#580SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ein3360
Ok so assuming you're a level 70 paladin and you have the precision talent, which gives you an extra 3% hit rate (which we all agreed is necessary for us), how much hit rating do you need to get in order to hit that magic 9-10%?
#581SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Habaka
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
I have been running DPS tests on the ptr with me and a fury warrior I was coming up consistently with 1050 dps.

My stats are: 31.42% crit and 1902 AP with might. I was getting battle shout so I guess I had almost 2200 AP for my tests.

My general rules are: judge crusader then CS and then as soon as judgment c/d was up I would wait for my next swing and then judge right after and get command up asap. If CS was ticking off right when I could judge I would wait to judge first and then CS because chances are CS would put me on gcd and then I wouldnt be able to get a judgement off til another swing.

I was spamming rank 1 concecration which I would use every time I judged since they share same c/d. I usually concecration and then judge right away since it doesnt have gcd. And then by the time I was done clicking judgement I could load up command right away usually since gcd from concecration would be up. I also was spamming max rank command.

All in all I expected higher dps than that after seeing what all you guys did. Do you guys just think that you got in the 1500's because you flasked and stuff? Or am I doing something fundamentally wrong.
Well, I'm not that great with theorycraft or anything, but I'v got some 29% crit and 2200 AP with Might alone and I'm pusing ~1200 dps

Ofcourse I'm using SoB, which you dont have as a human and I always prioritise Crusader Strike over everything else, so I'm following with the 9 second judgement swing timer.

Also if you have been reading this thread from the beginning, I guess you could easilly drop some crit, since if memory serves, it's better than Strength only when you cant keep your Vengeance up, (though this will change when you are aroung... what was it? ~5k ap?) and with the new buff to Vengeance, it really shouldnt be a problem.

Also Crit is very expencive stat on the item budjet, so for those few percents of crit, you could actually get quite some more Strength, that is ofcourse, if you are able to swap around your gear.
#582SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anarkii
The spreadsheet provides adequate means to compare the DPS of the said weapons. Listing the 'DPS' of these weapons without factoring in important aspects like CS and Armour Penetration is pretty misleading, and I feel its a bit iffy to add it in the OP.
#583SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
The spreadsheet provides adequate means to compare the DPS of the said weapons. Listing the 'DPS' of these weapons without factoring in important aspects like CS and Armour Penetration is pretty misleading, and I feel its a bit iffy to add it in the OP.
Then feel free to make short and simple comparison, complaining without effort to make it better wont help anyone. If you can prove that those calculations are wrong, then show the information and I am more than happy to edit the OP. Until then, what we have is what we use. None here is responsible to provide you with 100% accurate perfect simulations. People contribute what they can and thats what we have.

Go mess around with the spreadsheet and make clean listing of conditions and weapon differences and I will add it to the OP.
#584SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Taba
Does World Breaker Not show up on that list on purpose?

Is it really that awful?
#585SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Taba View Post
Does World Breaker Not show up on that list on purpose?

Is it really that awful?
The spreadsheet thinks it's aweful because it doesnt take into account the "chance on hit"; it only looks at the stats/dmg.
I personally love the worldbreaker
#586SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3LockApologist
Question from a new Ret pally (raided holy forever, tried Ret for 2 days):

Does CS proc SoB/SoC? The DPS cycle listed in the OP has some CS w/o seal active. As I've only been ret a short time, I have not had a chance to test this, but I've always tried to reseal before CS.

Am I wasting a GCD doing that? It would seem to me that if CS procs seals, it would be best to always have a seal active before CS.
#587SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Taba View Post
Does World Breaker Not show up on that list on purpose?

Is it really that awful?
It's about as good as Jin'rohk (the posted calculation overvalues Jin somehow). Twinblade is a clear upgrade from both, then you get BT/Hyjal weapons.
#588SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anarkii
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Then feel free to make short and simple comparison, complaining without effort to make it better wont help anyone. If you can prove that those calculations are wrong, then show the information and I am more than happy to edit the OP. Until then, what we have is what we use. None here is responsible to provide you with 100% accurate perfect simulations. People contribute what they can and thats what we have.

Go mess around with the spreadsheet and make clean listing of conditions and weapon differences and I will add it to the OP.
You misunderstood my point. I meant that the spreadsheet already takes into account armor penetration, and considers DPS from all the abilities, buffs and debuffs, and thus directly provides a more accurate comparison.

For e.g. for my gear here's the comparison :

WB=World Breaker
TbotP=Twinblade of the Phoenix
SC=Soul Cleaver
TotD=Torch of the Damned
CE=Cataclysm's Edge

              WB     TbotP   SC    TotD   CE
White DPS    482     488    494    502    507
SoB DPS      303     307    304    315    311
JoB DPS       87      87     87     87     86
CS DPS       318     318    319    325    328
WF DPS       100     101    101    104    105

Total        1292    1303   1315  1335   1339
Sure, I could provide all the conditions and calculations, but the spreadsheet does that already. I could even write a simulator to do the same, but that's unnecessarily duplicating Bellator's fantastic work. Let's just work towards getting that as accurate as possible, since paladin dps is so much more simpler to model than rogues, for example

Anyhow, retain Thoridon's work by all means if you feel it adds to the knowledge base. It was just a suggestion - feel free to discard it.
#589SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
LockApologist
Originally Posted by Anyarede View Post
Some more minor things on the spread sheet to be anal retentive about:
Justicar Greaves Spelling

Gem bonus for weapons doesnt seem to either be displaying properly or working correctly -
possibly due to the change to 4 gem locations?

Vindicators Scaled Bracers and Pendant of Triumph both need Lookup Info for Loc and MyLoc

Items to consider Including:
Spellsword's Mark of the Redemption (Quest Ring)
Amani Mask of Death (Badges - Plate)
Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate (Badges - Plate)
Bloodthirster's Wargreaves (Badges - Plate)
Chain of Unleashed Rage (Badges - Plate)
Eternium Rage Shackles (Badges - Plate)
I'd add to the list:

[Furious Gizmatic Goggles] (engineering - plate)
[Hammer of the Naaru]
[Thundering Skyfire Diamond]

And probably more.

There seems to be a good sized gap between lvl 70 blues and the T5+ gear on the item lists. I'd guess this might be on the to-do list.

Last edited by LockApologist : 11/05/07 at 2:09 PM.
#590SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
For e.g. for my gear here's the comparison
Good job, it wasnt that hard afterall was it? Throw me PM about stats you used so people can adjust them to their own. And if you have spare time feel free to do similiar for stat milestones (You can come up with your own) and weapon comparison according to ilevel.
#591SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
Question from a new Ret pally (raided holy forever, tried Ret for 2 days):

Does CS proc SoB/SoC? The DPS cycle listed in the OP has some CS w/o seal active. As I've only been ret a short time, I have not had a chance to test this, but I've always tried to reseal before CS.

Am I wasting a GCD doing that? It would seem to me that if CS procs seals, it would be best to always have a seal active before CS.
Seals only proc on normal weapon swings. CS is not a normal weapon swing sadly, otherwise the unnerf in 2.3 would be even more godly.

To that effect, does anyone know if CS can proc Mongoose, Windfury, etc?
#592SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3LockApologist
Regarding the spreadsheet, some feature requests:

Anyway to make it display the skill breakdown, etc for SoB usage? Everything seems dependent on SoC (I do see the SoB box and option on the graph, but there is no option to change the details to SoB).

I don't see how to add new items (i'm an Excel noob, sorry). Manually typing them in seems to cause the hide/expand button to break.

How/where are item set bonuses defined/displayed? I don't see where this is accounted for. Specifically, I'm interested in Doomplate 4 pc, but I couldn't see it for T4/5 etc.

Could you provide a legend for the abbreviations? I was guessing SpDm = spell dmg, but then I saw Dam (S) and I got confused.

Also, SoB is scaling off SpDm in the graph. Is that accounting for the judgement, or is that a bug?
#593SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
hawaiisb
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
hawaiisb, you're losing a lot of DPS from not having SoC up all the time. Make a macro that judges and reseals and use only that.

Ah wow that macro helps a ton. Thanks alot for that.

edit: After running 2 dps tests between college classes I have seen a jump from 960 dps to 1048 dps average just from using the macro. It really frees up alot of time for me to work on my cycle and to get it down alot tighter. I did those tests solo with 31.42% crit and 1902 ap with might.

Last edited by hawaiisb : 11/05/07 at 7:03 PM.
#594SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Denrire
Spreadsheet

I'd like to thank you for putting together this DPS spreadsheet. As for people unable to get it to function under Office 2007 I found out that if you are getting the message "This workbook has lost its VBA project, ActiveX controls and any other programmability-related features." run the installer again and make sure that you have all of the VB tools installed (they're nested in the 'shared files' section). You may also need to go into the trust-center and add the path to the directory where the .xls file is and give it access to run.

On another note, I'd like to ask a couple of things.

First, could you add the Pauldrons of Swift Retribution, the Greaves of the Martyr and enchanter's ring enchantments to the list? I'm not seeing these as options currently.

Thank you!
#595SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Seals only proc on normal weapon swings. CS is not a normal weapon swing sadly, otherwise the unnerf in 2.3 would be even more godly.

To that effect, does anyone know if CS can proc Mongoose, Windfury, etc?
Specials cannot proc WF totem anymore. Hotfixed like two month ago.
#596SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rense
Originally Posted by Denrire View Post
First, could you add the Pauldrons of Swift Retribution, the Greaves of the Martyr and enchanter's ring enchantments to the list? I'm not seeing these as options currently.

Thank you!
For everyone who wants items added:

I know in Excel (not sure about OO but it is probably similar) you can go to Format -> Sheet -> Unhide and select the ones you would like to see. The sheet named "DPS" is the one that has all the items stored on it and you can add or edit any of them you wish (just keep the format the same).

You can also go to the sheet titled "DPS Calc" and tweak any setting you'd like. I know I wanted to reconcile my current DPS so I set the CS cool down back to 10 seconds.

Cheers Bel for this tool, it's extremely nice.
#597SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Added new weapon comparison (Using bellators DPS spreadsheet).

5. Weapon Comparison

Tier5 and Tier6 gears are assumed most common items with full tier 5/6 according to instance itemization available. Values for DPS are not your actual damage output. Its unbuffed reference dps values only so you can compare the difference between weapons (Adjust the evaluation to your own itemization, your mileage may vary). Do not consider the dps value as actual damage output.


Last edited by Cromfel : 11/06/07 at 9:18 AM.
#598SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Seals only proc on normal weapon swings. CS is not a normal weapon swing sadly, otherwise the unnerf in 2.3 would be even more godly.

To that effect, does anyone know if CS can proc Mongoose, Windfury, etc?
CS can proc non damage seals (SoW/SoL/SoJ).

Put up SoW and watch your combat log when you use CS. If you have a slow weapon, you'll easily get a double proc.
#599SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Denrire
Bellator,

In your spreadsheet the "Gladiator's Scaled Shoulders" are named "Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece", which forces excel to pull the data from the shoulder slot item if you select "Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece" in the chest slot item in the character sheet.

I've simply renamed the shoulder slot item to correct the issue in the DPS Calc sheet.
#600SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Agonar
@Bellator,
I know absolutly nothing about Microsoft product like Excel, office and all... but i do have Staroffice but never really played around with it. Is there any plan to make the spreadsheet work with Openoffice in the future? Or is there any way to currently make it work? I keep getting error. :/
#601SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Prepared
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
@Bellator,
I know absolutly nothing about Microsoft product like Excel, office and all... but i do have Staroffice but never really played around with it. Is there any plan to make the spreadsheet work with Openoffice in the future? Or is there any way to currently make it work? I keep getting error. :/
Your OpenOffice.org

I used this development build of OpenOffice, which is able to run most of the scripts. I haven't tried it since version 8 or so, though, since Bellator said that making the spreadsheet compatible is not an option, currently.

The only big trick is that you have to delete the line with the Librams on it, and that your DPS numbers will be lower for it.

Edit: That said, I'm currently working on a platform-independent application which serves the exact same function as the spreadsheet, but requires no viewers, plugins, or otherwise... maybe even with an HTML or text output options... but since I have to dig deeper into the actual math required to determine the DPS values, etc, it's a long way out.

Not to mention, writing up all this equipment. :P

Last edited by Prepared : 11/06/07 at 5:25 PM.
#602SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Agonar
There was a new PTR Build tonight, November 6 and still no change to our base spell or talent for AP -> SD to lessen our reliance on spell dmg and fix some itemization issues.

2.3 is going LIVE on US Servers November 13 and Arena Season 3 is November 20.

Source: https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...66101883&sid=1
#603SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Even though it doesn't look like we'll get everything we asked for in this patch, I'd still call it an overall success. Ret gained a lot of viability from the Threat Reduction and 6 second CS. I would consider it a good start to be expanded on in the next few patches/expansion.

Breaking news from the latest PTR too. Human racials were changed again.


5 free expertise sounds excellent in my books.
#604SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anarkii
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Good job, it wasnt that hard afterall was it? Throw me PM about stats you used so people can adjust them to their own. And if you have spare time feel free to do similiar for stat milestones (You can come up with your own) and weapon comparison according to ilevel.
To extend this a bit further, I developed a simple app that lets you enter your stats and compare weapons. I'm just using this as a preparation for a simulator that I am considering making later on.

The 'Buffs and Debuffs' tab is not functional yet. Right now this assumes all standard raid buffs to compare weapons. However, you need to enter the stats considering the effect of all buffs. Particularly, for Armor Penetration, enter the value of ArmP from gear along with the values from Sunder, FF and CoR.(Or just leave it at 4000 if you aren't sure)

This is pretty much a pre-alpha version that I cooked up in a couple of hours. I may put more effort on it if it's useful to anyone.

(Requires .NET runtime 2.0)

Download RetWeaponCompare
#605SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Found another bug in Bellator's sheet: JoB damage is being increased by the 4-piece T4 bonus. It should only increase JoC.

Can be fixed by editing the formula in cell C42 on the DPS Calc sheet and removing '*G23' from it.
#606SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3madmardigan83
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Even though it doesn't look like we'll get everything we asked for in this patch, I'd still call it an overall success. Ret gained a lot of viability from the Threat Reduction and 6 second CS. I would consider it a good start to be expanded on in the next few patches/expansion.

Breaking news from the latest PTR too. Human racials were changed again.


5 free expertise sounds excellent in my books.
I too, am slightly disapointed since our "reliance" upon SD didn't decrease at all... but it does open the door to potentially new changes for future patches.

I know that in the past 5 weapon skill used to equate to +3% hit on mobs 3 levels higher than you, with the new skill of Expertise, is this still the case? If so, that would be a large benifit for raiding... I may even be able to take the 8 points in Prot and relocated them and then make up for the difference with a few +hit items.
#607SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
I too, am slightly disapointed since our "reliance" upon SD didn't decrease at all... but it does open the door to potentially new changes for future patches.

I know that in the past 5 weapon skill used to equate to +3% hit on mobs 3 levels higher than you, with the new skill of Expertise, is this still the case? If so, that would be a large benifit for raiding... I may even be able to take the 8 points in Prot and relocated them and then make up for the difference with a few +hit items.
Expertise is slightly different from weapon skill, and much closer to what the original WS was.

Each point of WepEx decreases the Dodge and Parry chance of whatever you're attacking by .25%. This is really huge because not only can you reduce parried attacks (excellent for tanks), but if you can hit cap and WepEx cap (~5.6% on bosses or about 88 WepEx rating) you can theoretically have 99% of your attacks be a hit or a crit.

As for speccing out of Precision, thats personal choice, but now that it affects spell hit as well as melee hit I don't think its really worth having the extra points to drop it.
#608SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Does receiving 5 expertise from the new human racial have any affect on how much hit rating one should stack? Am I still aiming for 8-9% hit with a two-hander against raid bosses?
#609SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prinsesa
Hit rating decreases your miss rate.

Expertise decreases the boss' parry/dodge rate (although that also indirectly leads to more hits).

So the answer is no, you should still be aiming for 9% hit.
#610SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
I too, am slightly disapointed since our "reliance" upon SD didn't decrease at all... but it does open the door to potentially new changes for future patches.

I know that in the past 5 weapon skill used to equate to +3% hit on mobs 3 levels higher than you, with the new skill of Expertise, is this still the case? If so, that would be a large benifit for raiding... I may even be able to take the 8 points in Prot and relocated them and then make up for the difference with a few +hit items.
The CS change adds to weapon damage and AP scaling.

That's lessened "reliance" on +dmg right there.


Personally, I don't see why we need the +dmg scaling removed. No Ret DPSer in this thread goes out of their way to get +dmg on their gear. If you don't even use the stat, how are you reliant on it?


If you think that it needs to be changed so that your overall damage scales better, ask for better damage scaling, not removal of the +dmg mechanic. Doing otherwise opens you up to get what you *asked for* and still be disappointed.

(See S3 v2 for an example)
#611SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
Spelldamage is not important in pve but despite the fact that this thread is about pve, there is still pvp. In pvp spelldamage is the way you can hybridize your gamestyle and it is a main source for your burst damage.
#612SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Winkl
So is the +0 SD on the S3 set a concern for PVE?

I'm gonna try ret come 2.3/S3 and have been banking arena and honor points for gear. Coming from Holy spec and just picking up the scraps from raids I've assembled an "ok" ret set so far. My plans were to get the S3 bracers, belt, boots, and gloves and also the S1 shoulders and chest. I should be over 1700 Ap and 25% crit come S3.

Then the S3 stats changed. So now I'm wondering if I should just get the S2 bracers, belt, and boots instead. The trade off by my math is give up 36 Str in exchange for 86 SD. I'm thinking from what I've gathered here is that this is NOT a good trade. 36 Str > 86 SD, in other words. SD is gonna help only for CS and Cons, Exorcism, the later 2 wont find a huge place in a damage rotation anyway.

Just looking for some reassurance that my understanding is correct. PVE again mind you.
#613SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
I don't see how spell damage increases your burst... Granted you get higher damage judgement, but you get much lower damage CS and autoattack because those scale much better with AP.
#614SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Season 3 items are exceptional for PvE purposes. I personally intend to wear the boots, gloves, and chestplate. My belt and bracers are a red belt and Eradication, respectively, which I picked up to make up for the hit lost with the weapon skill change.

Your understanding is incorrect. In nearly all situations, s3 items will be your best bet... even with the resilience weighing them down.
#615SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
@galzohar

Wrong, your white dmg yes but not your yellow dmg ->burst

judgements scale only with spelldmg, consecration scales only with spelldmg,

we lose 154 spelldmg and 252 armorpen by S3 and gain 82 str more -> 82 str with pvp weapon and Divine Str 46,4 dmg with CS .... 154 spelldmg 61,6 dmg with CS....I dont count armor pen it just hurts...

Even SoC does more dmg with this spelldmg 33,9 vs 32,5 and I dont talk about our healing. I am not sure if the new stats are better in pve because of all raidbuffs and constant white dmg but this is our pvp set.
#616SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
galzohar
edit: my numbers were wrong, read the description wrong, just forget it (or do it yourself ;p)

Also I wonder why such a big loss of spell damage and armor reduction was translated into so little STR, meaning the overall item level was reduced as well or you're not counting some stat.

Last edited by galzohar : 11/07/07 at 10:18 PM.
#617SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Argavaine
ok, I forgott the normalization to 3,3 but that only counts to AP so CS dmg :

82 str -> 90.2 str -> 180.4 ap -> 12.88 dps -> 42.52 damage (assumine normalized 3.3)

spelldmg have no connection to weapon speed it is 40% -> 154 spelldmg 61,6damage (the difference is even bigger :-) )

It is difficult to count normal attacks because you dont know how many of them can land but if you use a pvp weapon 3,6 speed that means that you can make 0,9 judgements during the time of 2 swings 7,2 sec (46,4 x2) -> Judgement does 65,6 dmg (154 *1,1 SA *0,43coef *0,9time)


ok dmg str in 7,2 sec:

cs - 42,52*1,2=51,02
aa - 46,4*2=92,8
judgement - 0
consecration - 0
SoC (7ppm) 0,84 procs - 46,4*0,7*1.1SA*0,84=30,01
---------
173,83 dmg over 7,2 sec

dmg spelldmg 7,2 sec:

cs - 61,6*1,2=73,44
aa - 0
judgement - 65,6
concecration - 154*0,95coef*0,9time*1.1 SA-160,93
SoC - 154*1.1SA*0,2coef*0,84=28,46 (ok small lose)
------------

167,5 dmg over 7,2 sec without consecration 328,4 with consecration


We have almost the same dmg numbers without consecration (str and spelldmg) if you would add armor penetration wich depends from your targets total armour old S3 version becomes even more better. You often cannot land 2 swings on your target because pvp is mobile but if your target is immobilized than you can use consecration for your burst (hammer stun) and the numbers become absolutly stupid in favor of old S3.


here are 2 links to Cromfels HP (thx Cromfel :-) )with old and new set :

new http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/retribution/gear.gif

old http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/re...on/season3.jpg

Last edited by Argavaine : 11/07/07 at 7:28 PM.
#618SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Going by your numbers:
Also I wonder why such a big loss of spell damage and armor reduction was translated into so little STR, meaning the overall item level was reduced as well or you're not counting some stat.
One of the things that has been said time and again by blizzard is that a smaller spread of stats = loss of itemization points...

So when we had armor pen and spell dmg on the gear we actually had more itemization points spent than what actually got converted into str because we lost the spread...

Sort of how a green item "of the Tiger" Something like 10/10 compared to an equal level "of Strength" with only 15 str...

Either way though, the items are stronger as they are now.
#619SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Also I wonder why such a big loss of spell damage and armor reduction was translated into so little STR, meaning the overall item level was reduced as well or you're not counting some stat.
It seems that the more of a single stat on an item the more expensive it becomes.

For example, I have seen green wands of same type (forgot the exact name) with two different stat sets. One was "of the Owl" and has 11 INT and 11 SPI. The other was "of intellect" and only had 18 INT. Therefore it would make sense to assume that the more of one stat you pile onto an item the more expensive each point of that stat is. So even though you're losing a lot of SD and Armor Pen. on the items, since its all being dumped into STR (which there was a good amount of to begin with) you don't get an equal amount of STR since each consecutive point costs more and more of the item budget.
#620SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post

Either way though, the items are stronger as they are now.
Maybe with SoB but normally it is not often used in pvp (even by the horde :-) ), look at my last post. The numbers tell a different story. You can tell me if I did some mistake but this way we lose dmg and also important heal.
#621SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Argavaine
One more thing to add, I would love to see the spelldmg removed from all our sets. It is for sure the right way but if they do this they have to fix some mechanics (f. ex. AP dependancy of our instant attacks instead of spelldmg dependancy or AP-> Spelldmg talent.....400 mana for 240 dmg JoCs is not funny).
The best way for it would be to give us AP-> 30% heal talent, that would give us the same healing as shamans but only 10% Spelldmg (180 spelldmg -1800AP) similar to pvp set because our dmg scales better with spelldmg (shock vs CS, SoC, JoC)

Last edited by Argavaine : 11/07/07 at 7:58 PM.
#622SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Argavaine View Post
One more thing to add, I would love to see the spelldmg removed from all our sets. It is for sure the right way but if they do this they have to fix some mechanics (f. ex. AP dependancy of our instant attacks instead of spelldmg dependancy or AP-> Spelldmg talent.....400 mana for 240 dmg JoCs is not funny).
The best way for it would be to give us AP-> 30% heal talent, that would give us the same healing as shamans but only 10% Spelldmg (180 spelldmg -1800AP) similar to pvp set because our dmg scales better with spelldmg (shock vs CS, SoC, JoC)
Yes, personally I would love to see a change like this... realistically the biggest reason I think most people go for spell damage in PvP is for the healing capabilities... I would honestly love to see a change to completely take spell damage off our gear and our melee skills (CS and SOC) and add in a talent that was 30% AP ---> Healing and 10% AP ---> Spell Damage.
From the looks of it though, blizzard seems to think they have done enough for this patch =\ Hopefully some more goodies get added by the time it goes live though.
#623SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kris
Seems bellator went missing here, but in case he comes back, please add Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal to the spreadsheet.
#624SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3bellator
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Seems bellator went missing here, but in case he comes back, please add Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal to the spreadsheet.
I am still around, just been exceptionally busy at work etc recently. Will try to answer any questions i can about the spreadsheet later today.
#625SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Antiock
Does anyone happen to know if [Libram of Divine Judgement] has a hidden cooldown or something? That item seems pretty amazing....almost enough to make me want to use Command instead of Blood.
#626SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
No internal cooldown, 40% proc rate, IIRC.

It was out-performing even the the broken Libram of Avengement that gave you the buff any time you refreshed a judgement with melee (meaning it had 100% uptime).
#627SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
No internal cooldown, 40% proc rate, IIRC.

It was out-performing even the the broken Libram of Avengement that gave you the buff any time you refreshed a judgement with melee (meaning it had 100% uptime).
You sure? By the spreadsheet, SoB w/ Avengement still outperforms SoC w/ 200 AP libram, assuming you don't carry a lot of +dmg or swap other gear.

I have no doubt that 200 AP > + crit if you're already using SoC.
#628SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Well, for soc vs sob I'm not going to go into that, 5-10% better overall damage from a simply better Seal easily beats a libram which is the equivalent of passive 100 AP.

But if you're actually using SoC because you're one of us alliance losers, the new libram absolutely destroys Avengement.
#629SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
You sure? By the spreadsheet, SoB w/ Avengement still outperforms SoC w/ 200 AP libram, assuming you don't carry a lot of +dmg or swap other gear.

I have no doubt that 200 AP > + crit if you're already using SoC.
I can guarantee that this result is only because of how much more powerful SoB is as a spell than SoC and has little to do with the librams. If there was a libram equivalent to 200 AP from Blood it would also destroy Avengement. If you're a BE ret pally, stick with Blood and Avengement (hell Blood and [Libram of Souls Redeemed] would most likely still do more DPS than Command and the new libram). If you're alliance, there is no reason not to be using it.
#630SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I can guarantee that this result is only because of how much more powerful SoB is as a spell than SoC and has little to do with the librams. If there was a libram equivalent to 200 AP from Blood it would also destroy Avengement. If you're a BE ret pally, stick with Blood and Avengement (hell Blood and [Libram of Souls Redeemed] would most likely still do more DPS than Command and the new libram). If you're alliance, there is no reason not to be using it.
Sorry to not clarifying. I failed to look left on the post I quoted to see Human, and I was going with the poster who asked the original question mentioning they might switch to SoC over Blood.

I agree that SoB is better (and I'm glad to have it ;p), and if you're ally, you should get the new libram. No questions.
#631SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hawaiisb
Have any of you been able to test how our mana lasts in 2.3? I have been running tests on the Blasted Lands mobs to test my mana efficiency. I was running oom and barely even getting close to a 2 minute mark. So for my last test I only used 2 buttons. I pushed Crusader Strike every time it was up and then used my judge/soc macro for my 2nd button. I did 979 dps with just these 2 skills but I ran oom in 2 minutes 12 seconds. Anyone else finding our mana efficiency is extremely low?
#632SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
Have any of you been able to test how our mana lasts in 2.3? I have been running tests on the Blasted Lands mobs to test my mana efficiency. I was running oom and barely even getting close to a 2 minute mark. So for my last test I only used 2 buttons. I pushed Crusader Strike every time it was up and then used my judge/soc macro for my 2nd button. I did 979 dps with just these 2 skills but I ran oom in 2 minutes 12 seconds. Anyone else finding our mana efficiency is extremely low?
Which rank of SoC were you using? Blessings/Judgements? How much mana regen do you have on your gear?


Were you using pots? How efficient are the various damage abilities you're using? (Mana used for the ability versus the damage you gained from the ability)
#633SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Take a mage and do the same test. While you'll get more than 2 minutes, you'll be surprised how low you get. Raid buffs are a main source of mana supply in a long fight, you can't just test it unbuffed on BL mobs and complain you don't have mana for it.
The only real source for mana regen when soloing is drinking... Use it. And in a raid you'll have a lot more mana due to raid buffs. Then again due to the regen calculations that were already done, you probably still won't press much more than your CS and judge/reseal but you won't be running oom nearly as fast especially with potions.
#634SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Take a mage and do the same test. While you'll get more than 2 minutes, you'll be surprised how low you get. Raid buffs are a main source of mana supply in a long fight, you can't just test it unbuffed on BL mobs and complain you don't have mana for it.
Quoted for truth.

While running bellator's spreadsheet (v23) a couple times, I noticed the shocking difference in "time till OOM" as well as overall DPS (with consecration etc added) depending on raid buffs.

Especially the insane boost that comes from JoW.

Putting in my current gear (Torch, 5x T6, Alchemist's Stone, crap rings, hit capped etc) and setting the raid buffs to what I usually get in fights (LoTP off, Blood Frenzy on, Expose Weakness on, Shadowpriest off, rest on default), I got the following results:


1. Optimal: Mana Pots YES, BoW IMP, JoW ON:

Time till OOM: Infinite, Total DPS: 1508


2. BoW OFF Mana Pots YES, JoW ON:

Time till OOM: >10 mins, Total DPS: 1465


3. JoW OFF: Mana Pots YES, BoW IMP:

Time till OOM: 374 (6 mins 14 secs), Total DPS: 1428


3. All OFF: Mana Pots OFF, BoW OFF, JoW OFF:

Time till OOM: 133 (2 mins 13 secs), Total DPS: 1428



The shocking thing to notice is the MASSIVE drop in DPS as well as time till OOM when JoW is not applied, even while spamming pots (+Alchemist's Stone) and with Imp BoW.

As a matter of fact (just as a test, not that I'm suggesting you should do this if you're in a raid), if you turn off JotC and keep up JoW yourself, you're running at Infinite time till OOM and 1462 DPS which is more DPS than with "just JotC".


I know till now I quite frequently did fights without JoW, but I'm going to insist on it being there from now on and monitor that it never drops off. The added mana opens up a lot of damage from consecration (as well as exorcism where applicable) and means you never have to downrank/slow down your rotation due to running out of mana.

Hopefully with the 6 sec CD on CS in 2.3 as well as expertise avoiding some dodges and not having to stop for aggro, JoW will never again drop off.


Even without BoW it's doable, but it seems JoW is a must.


I have not been able to figure out any way to have Haste Potions instead of Mana pots, despite JoW ON and IMP BoW, you just run out of mana too fast and don't have any spare mana for Consecration/Exorcism which leads to a DPS decrease in any normal length fight.

Last edited by Avitus : 11/08/07 at 10:58 PM.
#635SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
More spreadsheet feedback (for v23) for bellator:

I think it's almost perfect now and I love the way it's developed. This following is the last few nitpicks:

I noticed a glaring omission in the spreadsheet which we all seem to have missed:


Mana Spring Totem!

Pretty much any shammy of any spec will always have this up. Even our enhancement shammy sticks it up for himself, so I always have it ticking for me as well.

Currently it gives 12mp2 untalented, 15mp2 improved (resto spec).

Next patch (2.3, which is hopefully in 4 days as mentioned in a blue post) it's getting buffed to 20mp2 untalented, 25mp2 improved (resto spec).

That's the equivalent of a whopping 50mp5 untalented or 62.5mp5 improved (more than imp BoW even! ;/).

This definitely needs to be added to make the spreadsheet more complete Especially considering that any ret paladin who's expected to do any serious raid damage will always have a shammy in their party. I suggest using the 2.3 numbers, since it's based on the 2.3 CS cooldown anyway.



Draenei racial auras!

If you're alliance, that shammy will be a Draenei and will also be giving you +1% spell hit from his Inspiring Presence.

Since I doubt (or rather, I'm very certain) any of us are or ever will be "spell hit capped" unless some major itemization gaps are filled, this is a very welcome buff to consider.

Additionally, should you have a Draenei warrior/hunter/paladin in your party, you'll be getting +1% melee hit from his Heroic Presence.

This one is a bit less important I guess since you really shouldn't rely on outside buffs to reach the melee hit cap, however no reason not to include it.




Some way to turn ON/OFF consecration/exorcism in rotation:

This is pretty much a continuation from my previous post.

Currently the way it's implemented, consecration/exorcism damage can only be seen once you pass a certain minimum of "time till oom".

It would be pretty awesome to be able to turn on/off whether you want to include consecration/exorcism in your rotation independent of your mana regen, and have the "Time till OOM" number change accordingly.

Just basic Consecration ON/OFF and Exorcism ON/OFF toggles would do it.


This way you can accurately decide how to use your skills, potions depending on the length of the fight.

Say it's a very short fight, on a non-undead (living!) mob, maybe it's possible to squeeze in a haste potion instead of a mana pot without going oom?



Dark/Demonic Runes:

Not that I suggest such a luxury should be used all the time, but in some fights they can make a big difference to the mana we have available, especially since they're on a different 2 min cooldown than (mana/haste) potions.

[Dark Rune]
[Demonic Rune]

Possible to add this?

I suggest adding 10% of the damage you take from them as mana restored (spiritual attunement).

This way they give 960 - 1600 mana, or an average of 1280 mana every 2 mins.



Comment on Trinkets:

A funny thing I noticed when running the item upgrade analysis:

The combo [Alchemist's Stone] + [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] seems to be the highest DPS combo for a ret paladin with almost any hit capped gear!

The Darkmoon Card is a no brainer (120 AP, 80 spelldamage), but it's interesting to see that the Alchemy trinket comes out on top simply due to the extra mana granted when spamming pots, which allows more consecration/exorcism spam.

That's pretty much what I've used from the beginning of content (as soon as they released the new Darkmoon Cards that is) all the way up to Illidan.

Good to know my intuition was right

Last edited by Avitus : 11/08/07 at 11:20 PM.
#636SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3jusion
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Seems bellator went missing here, but in case he comes back, please add Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal to the spreadsheet.
Yeah, I'd really like to see this as well, if you could, bellator.
#637SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The combo [Alchemist's Stone] + [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] seems to be the highest DPS combo for a ret paladin with almost any hit capped gear!
That's for SoC I assume, for SoB Dragonspine Trophy leaves everything but the Crusade card in the dust. So much in fact that I'm wondering if DST is somehow overvalued in the spreadsheet.
#638SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
That's for SoC I assume, for SoB Dragonspine Trophy leaves everything but the Crusade card in the dust. So much in fact that I'm wondering if DST is somehow overvalued in the spreadsheet.
You're correct
#639SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3pvita
I would be carefull about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. The spreadsheet counts an ideal situation when you hit whole the time statically. Notice please, that it falls of after 10s without hit and needs time to get up. Many fights needs you to move away or pause with hitting. In such cases when you lost stacks, your dps will go down. Trinkets with AP boost on use for next few seconds will win then.

Can we add to dps spreadsheet an option to put enchantments on the rings and [Thundering Skyfire Diamond] meta-gem?
#640SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
The shocking thing to notice is the MASSIVE drop in DPS as well as time till OOM when JoW is not applied, even while spamming pots (+Alchemist's Stone) and with Imp BoW.
Not very shocking, and not only true for paladins... Hunters/mages and even warlocks get a major benefit from it.

Just like you can see in the thread about the (kinda lame) priest spreadsheet, the more mana regen you have and the longer you have until oom, the more time increase you'll see from more mana regen. This, however, is misleading in terms of DPS increase because the fight will last a certain amount of time almost regardless of how much mana you have (assuming your DPS makes little effect on the fight's duration, not to mention that small changes to your DPS make even smaller effect on the fight's duration, for mana calculation purposes), which means that the "time till oom" is quite meaningless. What is meaningful is how much mana you have available over the X minutes the fight is taking, and what kind of damage you can do with that mana over that period.

"Time till oom" assumes a certain rotation and considers the fight over when you're oom, which both aren't true - less mana means more efficient use and slightly less DPS, while being oom doesn't prevent mana from keeping on regening.

RL example: When we were learning mag on my mage and the shadowpriests weren't that great, I would occasionally go oom, but shortly after the potion cooldown would be back up and I'd be rolling. Did I stop being useful when I went oom? Yes for a few seconsd, but not for the whole fight as the "time till oom" figure suggests.
#641SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
When we were learning mag on my mage and the shadowpriests weren't that great, I would occasionally go oom, but shortly after the potion cooldown would be back up and I'd be rolling. Did I stop being useful when I went oom? Yes for a few seconsd, but not for the whole fight as the "time till oom" figure suggests.
The only way - that I can see - to calculate around that kind of situation would be if the spreadsheet had a space to select a custom time frame for a fight (IE: 10 minutes) and let you know how far in the character goes OOM, and how long until enough mana to begin another full DPS rotation, assuming potions, passive regen, etc. The way it's been said, and the way I see it, is that this isn't supposed to be a 100% accurate combat simulation, it's mostly just to compare gear for upgrades, and to some extent the DPS rotations.

Besides, even not DPSing for a "few seconds", as you said, would affect a Paladin's total DPS number for the fight. There's no arguing that, so I don't think there's any real need to see how long a player can hold out for before all available resources are used up because, given enough time, all resources eventually become enable again unless there's some kind of enrage timer.
#642SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
My point is that even when oom you're keeping nearly full CS/JoC/SoC up which is the grand majority of your DPS with full raid buffs, which is why the "omg i'm oom" is really not that big of a deal - you need to figure out the DPS loss rather than saying "with this setup I don't go oom hence it's better", as you can see even with DPS time of 6 minutes in a 10 min fight you'll be doing way way more than 60% of your DPS.
#643SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Raid conditions are not how 1 spec should be balanced around for manaregen. There should be some form of reasonable manaregen for small scale pvp, small scale pve and soloing. Thats what we completely lack. JoW for example takes 12-18seconds to give back the mana used for the actual seal/judge. Thats the point where you can start "regen" mana. Now combine that with average combat durations of grinding for example and you notice our manaregen is actually spending mana more than you gain from that "manaregen" tool.
#644SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Raid conditions are not how 1 spec should be balanced around for manaregen. There should be some form of reasonable manaregen for small scale pvp, small scale pve and soloing. Thats what we completely lack. JoW for example takes 12-18seconds to give back the mana used for the actual seal/judge. Thats the point where you can start "regen" mana. Now combine that with average combat durations of grinding for example and you notice our manaregen is actually spending mana more than you gain from that "manaregen" tool.
How are you grinding?


JoW may take 12-18 seconds to regain the mana for a Seal/Judge - how about SoW? 2 SoW procs make up for most of SoW's mana cost; that's about 2 swings with a 2h weapon.

How are you using your mana? Are you making use of spirit regen where applicable, or are you just trying to use Raid DPS rotations?


I've spent a lot of time grinding exalted with Netherwing, Kurenai, and various other Rep timesinks. I don't think the class needs any help for "grinding mana regen".
#645SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Not very shocking, and not only true for paladins... Hunters/mages and even warlocks get a major benefit from it.

Just like you can see in the thread about the (kinda lame) priest spreadsheet, the more mana regen you have and the longer you have until oom, the more time increase you'll see from more mana regen. This, however, is misleading in terms of DPS increase because the fight will last a certain amount of time almost regardless of how much mana you have (assuming your DPS makes little effect on the fight's duration, not to mention that small changes to your DPS make even smaller effect on the fight's duration, for mana calculation purposes), which means that the "time till oom" is quite meaningless. What is meaningful is how much mana you have available over the X minutes the fight is taking, and what kind of damage you can do with that mana over that period.

"Time till oom" assumes a certain rotation and considers the fight over when you're oom, which both aren't true - less mana means more efficient use and slightly less DPS, while being oom doesn't prevent mana from keeping on regening.

RL example: When we were learning mag on my mage and the shadowpriests weren't that great, I would occasionally go oom, but shortly after the potion cooldown would be back up and I'd be rolling. Did I stop being useful when I went oom? Yes for a few seconsd, but not for the whole fight as the "time till oom" figure suggests.


I really don't see the point of stating the obvious here or breaking it down to that level >.>

All of this is a given.
#646SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
My point is that even when oom you're keeping nearly full CS/JoC/SoC up which is the grand majority of your DPS with full raid buffs, which is why the "omg i'm oom" is really not that big of a deal - you need to figure out the DPS loss rather than saying "with this setup I don't go oom hence it's better", as you can see even with DPS time of 6 minutes in a 10 min fight you'll be doing way way more than 60% of your DPS.
In my current gear, Consecration spam adds ~150 DPS on a single target and takes a ton of mana to keep up (660 mana every 8 seconds).

That's a lot of DPS, it's inefficient as hell, but that's not the point. You want to put as much damage on the boss as possible and there's a pretty large difference of having +150 DPS or not.

If you add exorcism on top you're talking about a pretty major loss of DPS.
#647SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
@bellator: Would it be possible to include Imp. Faerie Fire in your list of buffs and talents? I know there would be some individuals who raid with moonkin, and would like to know the loss of DPS from having hit capped via that debuff on the mob, so they can drop Precision.

And, while I'm on the subject of extra talent points... perhaps inclusion of Divine Intellect, for purposes of your OOM calculations?

I do manage to get it to work mostly on OpenOffice now, incidentally. I just can't click the buttons for sockets, and I have to un-hide the fields from 18 to 85 to be able to socket equipment. Otherwise, works great!
#648SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I really don't see the point of stating the obvious here or breaking it down to that level >.>

All of this is a given.
I wouldn't post it if I didn't see people jumping up and down over their "time till oom". Apperantely it's not obvious for everyone that this stat is pretty meaningless.
#649SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Avitus
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Raid conditions are not how 1 spec should be balanced around for manaregen. There should be some form of reasonable manaregen for small scale pvp, small scale pve and soloing. Thats what we completely lack. JoW for example takes 12-18seconds to give back the mana used for the actual seal/judge. Thats the point where you can start "regen" mana. Now combine that with average combat durations of grinding for example and you notice our manaregen is actually spending mana more than you gain from that "manaregen" tool.
I think that's the case for any mana class vs for example a traditional energy/rage based one.

Blizz doesn't want classes to be able to grind non stop without ever taking a few moments to drink/bandage up etc. Mana out will always be > Mana in when soloing.


Where you are definitely correct however is where we rank compared to other classes:

Mages can grind -> Evocation -> Gems, hell they're the water factories of the game

Warlocks can Dark Pact their pets or Lifetap/Drain Life

Rogues dodge so much they avoid most of the damage and only need to bandage every 50th mob

yada yada...



So yea if you look at it this way, it's really a joke how inefficient we grind/solo play and there's definitely something missing here.

Compared to almost any class, our downtime can be pretty extreme if you're doing a normal DPS rotation (and not doing something silly like DPSing with SoW which I assume is what Blizz logic expects >.>).

I know the rare occasions where I run around in battlegrounds without a healer, it feels like a car running out of fuel every minute (WSG green leaf ftw!).


So far at least for grinding, my solution has been Dreamless Sleep + Alchemist's Stone = 5040 mana (and HP) restored in 8 seconds, 5 pots go for 3g on my local AH and cheaper if you make em yourself. Of course this shouldn't be forced on a class.

Last edited by Avitus : 11/09/07 at 4:53 PM.
#650SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
What they could do with Sanctified Judgement, is to make the manareturn equal the time used for Seal. You are judging once every 10 seconds by default, 8seconds with talents. Thats 33% of Seal duration. Sanctified Judgement should return mana accordingly, giving that remaining 66% of mana back. Make it 75% and we have a judgement promotional system. That way it doesnt feel like ripoff to judge seal with high manacost at 30% of its full duration.
#651SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
What they could do with Sanctified Judgement, is to make the manareturn equal the time used for Seal. You are judging once every 10 seconds by default, 8seconds with talents. Thats 33% of Seal duration. Sanctified Judgement should return mana accordingly, giving that remaining 66% of mana back. Make it 75% and we have a judgement promotional system. That way it doesnt feel like ripoff to judge seal with high manacost at 30% of its full duration.
I'm confused. Sanct. Judgement already scales to the frequency of your judgements.

Let's say your seal costs 260 mana

If you judge every 8 seconds, you get 130 mana back every 8 seconds. 16~ Mana per second

If you judge every 30 seconds, you get 130 mana back every 30 seconds. 4.3~ Mana per second.



Isn't that already doing what you'd like for it to do? Gives you more mana when you judge frequently, compensating for the higher mana cost of frequent judging?
#652SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
And thats exactly how I said it works? Whats your point? Its currently at 50% and it could be around 66% to reflect the worst case scenario where you untalented judge at 10 second intervals. And it wouldnt hurt to have it at 75% as roundedup number to encourage judging more, as the judgement part is pretty horrific damage compared to the mana usage. Taking judgements to your damage rotations increase your mana consumption by ~40% but increase your damage by ~8% when thinking of WWS damage contributions and theoretically it increases your damage about 14% if you have infinite mana what isnt the case in this example.
#653SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
What they could do with Sanctified Judgement, is to make the manareturn equal the time used for Seal. You are judging once every 10 seconds by default, 8seconds with talents. Thats 33% of Seal duration. Sanctified Judgement should return mana accordingly, giving that remaining 66% of mana back. Make it 75% and we have a judgement promotional system. That way it doesnt feel like ripoff to judge seal with high manacost at 30% of its full duration.
Perhaps a less complicated way to work around this is to leave the talent's mana return mostly alone, but make it where Seals cost a certain % of their base mana to cast, and the rest is spent over the time as they're active.

My proposal is: Seals cost 25% of their base cost to cast, and then the remaining 75% over time, in 2 second intervals.

SoC (Rank 6) 238 cost, with talents.
238 * 0.25 = 59.5 (rounded to 60)
(238 - 60) / 15 = 11.86 mp/2 (we'll round up to 12)

8 seconds of SoC use would be:
60 + (12 * 4) = 108 mana

That comes out to about 45% of the mana we would spend now, and 5% better than Sanctified Judgements.

With that change, they could just get rid of that one talent, and maybe give us something else in its place? Also, it would benefit all specs, whether PVPing, grinding/farming, or raiding.
#654SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Perhaps a less complicated way to work around this is to leave the talent's mana return mostly alone, but make it where Seals cost a certain % of their base mana to cast, and the rest is spent over the time as they're active.

My proposal is: Seals cost 25% of their base cost to cast, and then the remaining 75% over time, in 2 second intervals.

SoC (Rank 6) 238 cost, with talents.
238 * 0.25 = 59.5 (rounded to 60)
(238 - 60) / 15 = 11.86 mp/2 (we'll round up to 12)

8 seconds of SoC use would be:
60 + (12 * 4) = 108 mana

That comes out to about 45% of the mana we would spend now, and 5% better than Sanctified Judgements.

With that change, they could just get rid of that one talent, and maybe give us something else in its place? Also, it would benefit all specs, whether PVPing, grinding/farming, or raiding.
Thats actually pretty interesting approach. Not like seals are really important part for holy paladins, but protection paladins could love that kind of system. They are pretty much in same boat with us.
#655SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prepared
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Thats actually pretty interesting approach. Not like seals are really important part for holy paladins, but protection paladins could love that kind of system. They are pretty much in same boat with us.
Definitely~ I figure that would solve a few problems where a Paladin is off-tanking, or tanking low-level instances, or out-gearing content. Basically any situation where the incoming damage, and thus incoming heals, are not able to sustain any kind of meaningful TPS without a shadow priest and mana pot cooldowns (which I hate using on my Paladin, because that means I have to make the choice between health or mana for my cooldown. :x)
#656SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
And thats exactly how I said it works? Whats your point? Its currently at 50% and it could be around 66% to reflect the worst case scenario where you untalented judge at 10 second intervals. And it wouldnt hurt to have it at 75% as roundedup number to encourage judging more, as the judgement part is pretty horrific damage compared to the mana usage. Taking judgements to your damage rotations increase your mana consumption by ~40% but increase your damage by ~8% when thinking of WWS damage contributions and theoretically it increases your damage about 14% if you have infinite mana what isnt the case in this example.
Never mind, I had trouble understanding the point of your post. I misjudged what you meant.

Carry on.
#657SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
felirx
Interesting revelation from the PTR. Judgement of Blood is not triggering the spelldamage portion of Darkmoon Card : Crusade. Instead if procs the melee portion of the trinket. Can this mean we can safely assume Judgement of Blood is a melee attack of a kind?

Judgement of Command however procced BOTH effects...

edit. Small futher test
Judgement of blood goes trough blessing of protection as other judgements, thus it's either a melee or a ranged attack. The damage it deals is same counted the same as JoC, beign holy and magical.

Last edited by felirx : 11/09/07 at 8:53 PM.
#658SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by felirx View Post
Interesting revelation from the PTR. Judgement of Blood is not triggering the spelldamage portion of Darkmoon Card : Crusade. Instead if procs the melee portion of the trinket. Can this mean we can safely assume Judgement of Blood is a melee attack of a kind?

Judgement of Command however procced BOTH effects...
Everything so far reflects that JoB and SoB are 100% melee skills with hit rating etc. I personally find it extremely harsh considering the position where Alliance paladins are with JoC and its spell hit requirement. Specially as SoC is talent in our melee tree, and yet it creates this unsolvable itemization problem with hit rating in addition to the heavy dependancy on spell damage.
#659SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Astinus
Horde Paladins

From what I understand SOB is fantastic for PVE and requires warrior type stats to increase a Horde paladins raid dps. But when pvping we will be using SOC instead.

I assume this means Horde paladins will be required to gear up two different sets in order to maximize their potential in both area's. Is this correct? A pve set with +melee hit, melee crit and AP and a PVP set with those three +spell damage.

One other question I haven't seen an answer to.

What do you think the minimum stats should be for a Horde paladin wishing to make the transition to retribution? As far as minimum AP, Crit %, Hit, Mana, Sta, Weapon DPS ect.

I am in a guild that is primarily in 10 man content and will be moving to ZA as soon as 2.3 comes out. I have been building a ret set with various Kara drops with PVP items sprinkled in. I am unsure when I should make the switch. I want to justify my position in a 10 man raid if possible.

edit: wording

Last edited by Astinus : 11/09/07 at 10:51 PM.
#660SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I wouldn't post it if I didn't see people jumping up and down over their "time till oom". Apperantely it's not obvious for everyone that this stat is pretty meaningless.
That's because it's not meaningless at all, you just need to know how to use it.

I don't know whether you're just drawing comparisons between paladins and your experience as a mage, or whether you also play a raiding ret paladin, but having more mana means being able to spam consecration/exorcism on top of normal rotations. This is a significant difference.

If you're trying to do any sort of competitive DPS in endgame, there's no time for "standing and regenning mana" or even slowing down your rotation means you've screwed up your mana management.

Larger "time till oom" number means more leeway with using these abilities in a shorter fight.


I guess this will all be solved if/when bellator adds consecration/exorcism toggles -> "Time till oom" so you have more input on which rotation you want to use.



Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
What they could do with Sanctified Judgement, is to make the manareturn equal the time used for Seal. You are judging once every 10 seconds by default, 8seconds with talents. Thats 33% of Seal duration. Sanctified Judgement should return mana accordingly, giving that remaining 66% of mana back. Make it 75% and we have a judgement promotional system. That way it doesnt feel like ripoff to judge seal with high manacost at 30% of its full duration.

I think the core of the problem lies (and unfortunately I have to beat a dead horse here) with our basic seal system.

The idea to have a "mana regen seal" and a "life regen seal" and a "stun seal" what not is not necessarily bad.

However, where the implementation fails so badly is that you can't use any of those in parallel, our normal DPS is actually based on having a very specific seal up (and no Buffs don't make up for that since they're too weak on a solo single target benefit and more of a raid benefit when you sum it up).


Compare for example to an enhancement shaman (closest example usually to ret paladin as a mana using melee hybrid), they can stick down Windfury (or Agi totem), Strength of Earth, Mana Spring and even a Spitfire totem for kicks all at the same time.

On top of that, they have their personal weapon enchants (like windfury weapon buff), let alone Shamanistic Rage (2 min cooldown).

They can have all of this up at the same time.

Shadowpriests can stick up dots, drain things and do damage all at the same time.

Hunters can use all their shots plus aspect of the viper without really reducing their main DPS cycles.


Point is if you compare what we have to show in comparison, it's a joke. The only Seals you'll grind with are SoC and maybe SoB.

Using SoW/SoL is not an option since you'll end up taking ages to kill things, which gets you back to square one with higher downtime.

Using JoW/JoL is a waste of mana 90% of the time when mobs die pretty quick.

I personally grind with BoW in hopes that it helps, but it really is not enough.



Anyway, I guess this got too much into rant mode, however my aim is to pinpoint exactly what I think is missing, compared to other classes.

This topic is just opening up old wounds, the core deficiencies of the paladin class: The broken Seal's system.

Oh yea, give Shamanistic Rage btw (and AP - > Spelldamage).
#661SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Astinus View Post
From what I understand SOB is fantastic for PVE and requires warrior type stats to increase a Horde paladins raid dps. But when pvping we will be using SOC instead.

I assume this means Horde paladins will be required to gear up two different sets in order to maximize their potential in both area's? A pve set with +melee hit, melee crit and AP and a PVP set with those three +spell damage.
I've seen horde pallys use both SoC and SoB in PvP as the situation dictates, but it is usually the former. However, the damage addition to SoC from spell damage is small enough that I really don't think it would be worth lugging around 2 separate sets of gear for. Seal of Command still scales with "warrior gear" well (better than spell damage maybe?). The main reasoning behind the spell damage on the PvP sets was to improve Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, and a little emergency healing, or so say all the angry pallys on the Blizzard forums. Whether this is true or not is open to debate.

Originally Posted by Astinus View Post
What do you think the minimum stats should be for a Horde paladin wishing to make the transition to retribution? As far as minimum AP, Crit %, Hit, Mana, Sta, Weapon DPS ect.

I am in a guild that is primarily in 10 man content and will be moving to ZA as soon as 2.3 comes out. I have been building a ret set with various Kara drops with PVP items sprinkled in. I am unsure when I should make the switch. I want to justify my position in a 10 man raid if possible.
Its going to be hard to justify a ret pally in a 10-man unless your DPS is pretty stellar. Chances are you won't get the 3 different Judgments to keep up (our only real unique utility) and will be stuck using JoW if there are no other pallys in the raid (thus lowering your DPS/utility even further). However, if you guild is willing to let you try it, I would say if you have a Tier 2 Blacksmithing weapon or equivalent (Gorehowl or an Arena weapon), enough crit to keep Vengeance up (I would guess about 20-23% in 2.3) and are reasonably close to the hit cap (its hard to get capped in kara gear, but as close as you can get with precision would be excellent) you should do alright. The ZA fights that I did also required a fair amount of health, so being in PvP gear might actually be a decent idea.

Wednesday is my first (real) raid as ret as well. Any last minute advice from the pros?
#662SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Wednesday is my first (real) raid as ret as well. Any last minute advice from the pros?
If the patch hits on Wednesday, I'm not sure any of us can be called pros for a while

PvE ret after 2.3 is going to be a completely different animal.


If you ask me now I'd say:

1. Watch your aggro.
2. Watch your aggro.
3. Watch your aggro.
4. Have a Shammy in your party with WF/SoE (non-negotiable for good results).
5. Spam mana pots.
6. Flask/Str food.

Post 2.3, I assume points 1.-3. become void, good luck
#663SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Felijanes
I'm not sure anyone has mentioned it in another thread, and I didn't see anyone mention anything here, but noticed something about Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal when I ninja-spec'd Ret for the raid today.

Apparently, if you have crusader, wisdom, or light judged, the talisman will count regular hits which refresh the judgement as a judgement itself, so you end up with a 50% chance on any melee hit to do 480 damage over 12 seconds. The damage also scales with sanctity aura, and vengeance, and I presume avenging wrath as well, although I didn't make a point to check. The tic is every 3 seconds so if your melee swing is slower than 3 seconds, the damage adds up pretty fast.

Heres what I got from SW Stats for the first boss that I happen to try it on:

1 Normal 101026 (40.9%)
2 Seal of Command 44259 (17.9%)
3 Crusader Strike 32777 (13.3%)
4 Judgement of Command 21234 (8.6%)
5 Windfury Attack 17061 (6.9%)
6 Enduring Judgement 13660 (5.5%) << This is the proc from the talisman
7 Consecration 9061 (3.7%)
8 Hammer of Wrath 7737 (3.1%)

Its a pretty good chunk of damage.

Have fun with this all you BT-exalted ret pallys!
#664SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Synbios
Sadly, while this is true now, that trinket is "Fixed" to not do that come 2.3. i.e. whacking the mob will not renew the debuff.
#665SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Larger "time till oom" number means more leeway with using these abilities in a shorter fight.
Granted more "time till oom" is always better, the reason it's nearly meaningless is that your "damage done over the fight" is not even close to being lineraly proportional to the "time till oom". Double "time till oom", even if still less than the fight duration, doesn't mean anywhere near double the DPS over that time period. It's in reality a lot less than double the DPS.

When I look at extra mana I'd rather look at the "extra damage done over X minutes" with that mana, and possibly divide by (X*60) to get the DPS benefit, than to look at "time till oom". "time till oom" is a scewed measurement that doesn't directly imply anything other than "you do some kind of more DPS, dunno how much". It even scews different mana stats in relation to eachother (int vs mp5), as if your "time till oom" is less than the fight duration, the int:mp5 ratio you'll get by looking at the "time till oom" will favor int more than it really should, as mp5 keeps working after you're oom while int doesn't.

If you just ignore the "time till oom" and look at it my way, you get a much better picture:
Z int (or mp5) lets you use so and so ability this many times and therefore results in Y extra damage, which over X minutes is D DPS.

Of course it's *still* complicated (to figure out which abilities that mana will actually be used for, although we already have the basic knoledge needed to do so), but you get a much better picture looking at the damage gained from the extra mana rather than the "time till oom" increases.
There is a reason on the new "priest spreadsheet" thread he was getting "increasing returns" for mp5 (which is rediculessly flawed) - because he was looking at the "time till oom" increase instead of "healing done" increase. Same applies here.
#666SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
galzohar, I think you're over analyzing things and underestimating the average understanding of the people using the spreadsheet (at least I hope so). It takes a big stretch of the imagination that anyone would assume that "time till OOM" would give you a linear relation to "damage done over the fight".

I doubt anyone uses the "time till OOM number" for more than a ballpark indication of "do I have more leeway with this raid buff, or that buff, how much more". (Basically "is the number going up or down and by how much, then check where it lists mp5 gained by different buffs).

Also, as the name says, it's an indication of how long you can go using a rotation until you go OOM and crap out significantly.

For example I can take it to tell me I can go for "x minutes, y seconds" with full rotation, if I don't have BoW.

Understanding where you'll most likely cap out in a fight means you can go into the fight with better idea what you'll be facing mana management wise.


Further, the spreadsheet already lists how much extra mana is had from regen to be used for consecration/exorcism.
#667SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Its going to be hard to justify a ret pally in a 10-man unless your DPS is pretty stellar. Chances are you won't get the 3 different Judgments to keep up (our only real unique utility) and will be stuck using JoW if there are no other pallys in the raid (thus lowering your DPS/utility even further). However, if you guild is willing to let you try it, I would say if you have a Tier 2 Blacksmithing weapon or equivalent (Gorehowl or an Arena weapon), enough crit to keep Vengeance up (I would guess about 20-23% in 2.3) and are reasonably close to the hit cap (its hard to get capped in kara gear, but as close as you can get with precision would be excellent) you should do alright. The ZA fights that I did also required a fair amount of health, so being in PvP gear might actually be a decent idea.

Wednesday is my first (real) raid as ret as well. Any last minute advice from the pros?
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Tonight was my first raid as Ret (Kara, so admittedly low end), and I never placed below 4th on any boss or trash between bosses. On Attumen, I ran OOM cuz the prot pally wasn't judging wisdom, so I was auto attacking w/o seal for about the last 20% and placed 4th. Competition was BM hunter gear in 3/4 T4 and similar (usually #1 or 2 if I beat him), 2 rogues that had no reason to be in Kara (full T4, and all the rest of the epics from Kara), and a full Merc BS Tier 2 wielding DPS war. I know they are good players, and were trying (there was much ribbing that a ret pally was beating them). All got kings/might, I had salv/might.

I have Hammer of the Naaru, which is equivalent to BS T2/Gorehowl, but nothing else that is greater than heroic level gear. 1700 AP, 20% crit, 7.5% hit. being competitive and with T4 level dps classes seems like there is no reason to doubt bringing a Ret pally.

My point is not to brag, but to say that Ret seems pretty viable to me at the 10 man level. 25 might be a different story.
#668SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Tonight was my first raid as Ret (Kara, so admittedly low end), and I never placed below 4th on any boss or trash between bosses. On Attumen, I ran OOM cuz the prot pally wasn't judging wisdom, so I was auto attacking w/o seal for about the last 20% and placed 4th. Competition was BM hunter gear in 3/4 T4 and similar (usually #1 or 2 if I beat him), 2 rogues that had no reason to be in Kara (full T4, and all the rest of the epics from Kara), and a full Merc BS Tier 2 wielding DPS war. I know they are good players, and were trying (there was much ribbing that a ret pally was beating them). All got kings/might, I had salv/might.

I have Hammer of the Naaru, which is equivalent to BS T2/Gorehowl, but nothing else that is greater than heroic level gear. 1700 AP, 20% crit, 7.5% hit. being competitive and with T4 level dps classes seems like there is no reason to doubt bringing a Ret pally.

My point is not to brag, but to say that Ret seems pretty viable to me at the 10 man level. 25 might be a different story.
My personal experience (though limited) is the exact opposite of this. In a 10 man your "utility" is basically a Blessing and a Judgment. Since space is very limited in a 10 man, there is much less of a chance that you will be able to have other Paladins to judge, and you're main utility (three continuous judgments and 3% crit) are wasted (since you will most likely be judging Wisdom instead of Crusader). That means your spot is one of a straight-up DPSer. You have to justify bringing a ret pally over a pure DPS class based on mainly damage instead of utility (of course there is the argument that 1 pally is nearly always required for Salvation which you could use).

I'm not saying ret pallys are not viable at the 10 man level. They just have the same problem as with the 5 man level; your main utility is wasted so your spot is dependent on pure DPS. In a 25 man on the other hand you will nearly always have at least 2 or 3 paladins for full Judgments and more Blessings, which gives you the right to argue for DPS and utility.

It does become rather moot after 2.3 though, as I was easily able to keep up with our resident Fury Warrior without even using a full DPS cycle (no consecration). Personal DPS was buffed a ton in the patch.
#669SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
My personal experience (though limited) is the exact opposite of this. In a 10 man your "utility" is basically a Blessing and a Judgment. Since space is very limited in a 10 man, there is much less of a chance that you will be able to have other Paladins to judge, and you're main utility (three continuous judgments and 3% crit) are wasted (since you will most likely be judging Wisdom instead of Crusader). That means your spot is one of a straight-up DPSer. You have to justify bringing a ret pally over a pure DPS class based on mainly damage instead of utility (of course there is the argument that 1 pally is nearly always required for Salvation which you could use).

I'm not saying ret pallys are not viable at the 10 man level. They just have the same problem as with the 5 man level; your main utility is wasted so your spot is dependent on pure DPS. In a 25 man on the other hand you will nearly always have at least 2 or 3 paladins for full Judgments and more Blessings, which gives you the right to argue for DPS and utility.

It does become rather moot after 2.3 though, as I was easily able to keep up with our resident Fury Warrior without even using a full DPS cycle (no consecration). Personal DPS was buffed a ton in the patch.
In my own 5/10 man experience, spec unique-ness doesn't matter at that level.

In a small group, your spec-based utility is outshined by your class-based (baseline) utility. Does a Kara 10 man really care that their only shaman has Unleashed Rage or Earth Shield, compared to Heroism, various totems, and the personal ability/gear to filling a DPS or healing role?


Same thing with paladins. Does your raid/party care if you have BoSanct/iBoW/iBoM when no one's blessed BoSalv or BoKings?


At that point, I think your reputation and relationship to the Party/Raid matters a little more than your specific spec.
#670SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Paksenarrion
What specc with you guys be using now? seems that 1/2 imp judement is better for dps, so that leaves 1 point free. Imp PoJ?
#671SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nemcova
Originally Posted by Felijanes View Post
1 Normal 101026 (40.9%)
2 Seal of Command 44259 (17.9%)
3 Crusader Strike 32777 (13.3%)
4 Judgement of Command 21234 (8.6%)
5 Windfury Attack 17061 (6.9%)
6 Enduring Judgement 13660 (5.5%) << This is the proc from the talisman
7 Consecration 9061 (3.7%)
8 Hammer of Wrath 7737 (3.1%)

Its a pretty good chunk of damage.

Have fun with this all you BT-exalted ret pallys!
actually, ive been holy spec since i came to shattered hand to be a paladin. guild decided to make me into the ret paladin and ive been wondering about the BT exalted trinket. I think this is a pretty good show for how viable the trinket would be. Im about 1.5k rep away from exalted and im pretty excited to see what i bring to the raid.

Im most likely gonna be using this and the hourglass.
#672SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dram
Ashtounge Talisman of Zeal

The trinket is being changed, it will no longer proc off refreshing judgments.
#673SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
flyingtoastr
Alright, I did UA and Shadowbolt Destro Locks finally. To the best of my knowledge these are the two main Warlock raiding builds, but if anyone can confirm a Demo or Fire Destro raiding build I will model it as well. I also put it in Alphabetical oder because I'm a little OCD like that.

These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. All talents/abilities are patch 2.3 versions. Your results will vary greatly.

Chain drinking Super Mana Potions every cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users 122.83 mp5

Druid
Moonkin
Typical Rotation: Insect Swarm, Moonfire, Starfire x3, Wrath, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 123.33 Mp5
Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5
Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Assumed 5/5 Improved Frostbolt

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 138.75 Mp5
Paladin
Protection
Typical Rotation: Judgement, Consecrate, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Judgement assumed talented 8 second cooldown

Retribution
Typical Rotation: Crusader Strike, Judgement, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 97.37 Mp5

Judgement assumed talented 8 second cooldown
Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5
Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Lightning Overload assumed perfect 20% proc rate

Enhancement (Dual Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Windfury Weapon assumed perfect 20% proc rate on both weapons
Shocks assumed to have nontalented 6 second cooldown
Warlock
Affliction (UA)
Typical Rotation (In no particular order): Unstable Affliction, Siphon Life, Corruption, Curse of X, Immolate, Shadowbolt, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Any curse may be used with the same results
Shadowbolt assumed talented 2.5 second cast


Destruction (Shadowbolt)
Typical Rotation: Shadowbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5
As usual, any problems or suggestions with anything post here or PM me. And no, I am still not going to model flurry for Enhancement Shamans, deal with it (I made sure to underline it this time so you will stop bugging me about it).

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/16/07 at 7:34 PM.
#674SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
I updated that to OP.
#675SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Retribution
Typical Rotation: Crusader Strike, Judgement, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 97.37 Mp5

Judgement assumed talented 8 second cooldown[/indent]

Not sure, but wasn't it the case that SoC can proc JoW too?
#676SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Not sure, but wasn't it the case that SoC can proc JoW too?
I'm not sure, if it does than the number will be higher. Can anyone confirm/refute this?
#677SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Agonar
Question concerning 2.3 and Judgement refreshing task:

I was not really able to run any serious test on the PTR since it is up so here is something i am wondering. Comparing to how it is currently on LIVE(pre-2.3) where we are always a bit stressed in raid that the 2 judgements from different paladin fall off, do you feel comfortable on the PTR 2.3 with the Judgement refreshing task now with Crusader Strike on a 6sec. Cooldown?

How it is?

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Agonar : 11/11/07 at 2:16 AM.
#678SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Sapp
Judgements will basically never drop unless you get pulled off the mob for some reason.
#679SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ayreon
On tank and spank fights, they will never fall off now.
#680SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
While it's not an absolute truth, I'm almost certain that I've seen double JoW procs with SoC active, so as long as it wasn't some lag or SCT error JoW can probably proc off of SoC.
#681SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3jokermn
First of all I want to say thanks for this brilliant thread containing tons of useful information.

considering the ret-cycle-spreadsheets i have a question:
having a hunter as my alt using different shotrotation makros I wonder if there is a posibility to create a mininum-client-lag ret-makro using cs and judgement at the right time.
i am not very good in doing makro stuff, but using castsequence commands there should be the possibility to create a weaponspeed/haste optimized cycle.

is anyone able to help with this?
or does such a sequence exist?
or does it not make any sense (and why)?

thanks for the help in advance,

cthu.
#682SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anarkii
On Live, Darkmoon Card: Crusade's spell damage part procs off refreshing judgements. Can anyone confirm that the same happens on the PTR? Judgement of Blood doesn't trigger the spell damage part, so for Blood Elves, any change to this will make the trinket much less useful. I'm asking because Ashtongue Talisman was changed not to proc off refreshing judgements.
#683SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
No DPS class at all in this game has any right whatsoever to bitch about downtime when soloing. Healers have it infinitely worst, as long as in raids / groups the mana regen is sufficient, DPS classes already have a huge advantage over healers/tanks when soloing/grinding.
#684SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
No DPS class at all in this game has any right whatsoever to bitch about downtime when soloing. Healers have it infinitely worst, as long as in raids / groups the mana regen is sufficient, DPS classes already have a huge advantage over healers/tanks when soloing/grinding.
Its not just downtime in soloing, duh. It effects all areas of gameplay naturally. Do you know how frustrating it is to run 5 yard behind your enemy for minutes just because you dont get mana from anything? Ok, that was a little exagarated, but all manaclassas should have some built in manaregen. Some dont need huge, just any kind of manaregen so your class isnt shut down completely after you go oom 1st time.

And no, BoW isnt built in manaregen, reality check. Same can be said for JoW, it needs you to peacefully be whacking your enemy to generate mana. And we all know how easy that is in pvp for example, so it isnt natural manaregen. I would be personally fine if I got around 50-80 mp5 with lets say T5/T6 level gear. Atlest it would be something compared to ZERO manaregen. It could be little addition to some of the talents, nothing fancy.

Some kind of reasonable manaregen is needed for all mana classes.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/11/07 at 8:45 AM.
#685SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3felirx
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
On Live, Darkmoon Card: Crusade's spell damage part procs off refreshing judgements. Can anyone confirm that the same happens on the PTR? Judgement of Blood doesn't trigger the spell damage part, so for Blood Elves, any change to this will make the trinket much less useful. I'm asking because Ashtongue Talisman was changed not to proc off refreshing judgements.
Crusade was still proccing fine from refreshing JotC when i ran the seal of blood test.
#686SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
No DPS class at all in this game has any right whatsoever to bitch about downtime when soloing. Healers have it infinitely worst, as long as in raids / groups the mana regen is sufficient, DPS classes already have a huge advantage over healers/tanks when soloing/grinding.
Every class in the game has a DPS "tree". Almost every one of those has less downtime than ours.

Why compare to "trees" (healing/tanking) that are not designed for grinding? Now that's futile.
#687SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
No DPS class at all in this game has any right whatsoever to bitch about downtime when soloing. Healers have it infinitely worst, as long as in raids / groups the mana regen is sufficient, DPS classes already have a huge advantage over healers/tanks when soloing/grinding.
Last time I checked Paladins were a healing/tanking hybrid class, but thank you for proving me wrong. And actually I have less downtime (on the PTR) in my healing gear than when I'm specced ret. The 800 free spell damage is very awesome for healers and makes grinding cake.

Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
On Live, Darkmoon Card: Crusade's spell damage part procs off refreshing judgements. Can anyone confirm that the same happens on the PTR? Judgement of Blood doesn't trigger the spell damage part, so for Blood Elves, any change to this will make the trinket much less useful. I'm asking because Ashtongue Talisman was changed not to proc off refreshing judgements.
It was working fine last time I was on the PTRs. This was a while ago though when JoW was also proccing off Judgement refreshes, so it might have been changed in one of the latest builds.

I was fooling around on excel a little while ago and decided to make up a graph for how effective Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom are based on your attacks per 5 seconds.



The effects of either Judgement scale linearly based on how quickly you're attacking the target. Not groundbreaking but still pretty cool.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/11/07 at 4:43 PM.
#688SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cathmor
Vindication talent

Question about Vindication:

I know that it doesn't proc on raid bosses, that's something I've observed first-hand and heard time and time again. However, does it proc on boss adds? Elementals/nagas vs Vashj, adds vs Solarion, murlocs vs Tidewalker, for example. Does it have absolutely any function in the PvE raid scene, or would my points be better off in Guardian's Favor? If it will chop some stats off of the trash/adds in raid instances, it might just be worth my time.
#689SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Question about Vindication:

I know that it doesn't proc on raid bosses, that's something I've observed first-hand and heard time and time again. However, does it proc on boss adds? Elementals/nagas vs Vashj, adds vs Solarion, murlocs vs Tidewalker, for example. Does it have absolutely any function in the PvE raid scene, or would my points be better off in Guardian's Favor? If it will chop some stats off of the trash/adds in raid instances, it might just be worth my time.
I think that it would be doubtful in most cases and all the cases where it works would be stuff that really doesn't matter (if you're having a hard time with trash.. srsly). The only advantage you'd get out of it would be that the mob hits weaker than usual... the stamina removal will not take away health and therefore the debuff would only be 'useful' on mobs that regularly heal up to full (as what is the point of taking away stamina from a boss that will never go above a certain health level).

If Vindication worked on raid bosses, that would be all I need to convince myself that ret-raidin is a worthwhile role to persue. Altho, 15% less strength is huuuge debuff to the point that its just too overpowered for anything that hits remotely hard.

imo, vindication is mostly useless in a pve scene... and in a pvp scene I'm doubtful as well.
#690SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prinsesa
I was not really able to run any serious test on the PTR since it is up so here is something i am wondering. Comparing to how it is currently on LIVE(pre-2.3) where we are always a bit stressed in raid that the 2 judgements from different paladin fall off, do you feel comfortable on the PTR 2.3 with the Judgement refreshing task now with Crusader Strike on a 6sec. Cooldown?
Assuming you're hit-capped and attacking from behind (which you should be), the only way for your Crusader Strike to *not hit* would be if it was dodged

With CS on a 10 second cooldown, a single dodge would be enough to cause Judgements to fall off, since Judgements have a 20 second duration.

With CS on a 6 second cooldown, you can CS thrice within a Judgement's duration, so the boss would have to dodge your CS 3 consecutive times in order to cause Judgements to fall off. If we assume a 5.8% dodge rate (I've heard this number thrown around several times, shoot me if I'm wrong), you roughly have a 0.019% chance of letting Judgements fall off.
#691SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Shalcker
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
I think that it would be doubtful in most cases and all the cases where it works would be stuff that really doesn't matter (if you're having a hard time with trash.. srsly). The only advantage you'd get out of it would be that the mob hits weaker than usual... the stamina removal will not take away health and therefore the debuff would only be 'useful' on mobs that regularly heal up to full (as what is the point of taking away stamina from a boss that will never go above a certain health level).
Stamina removal part takes away health by reducing maximum hp. As long as vindication procs while mob is above ~90%, it'll provide some benefit.

imo, vindication is mostly useless in a pve scene... and in a pvp scene I'm doubtful as well.
Well, reducing both mana and health by 15% can be useful in a lot of situations, as well as having another automatic debuff for cleansing to protect stings/corruption/judgements/etc.
#692SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
Stamina removal part takes away health by reducing maximum hp. As long as vindication procs while mob is above ~90%, it'll provide some benefit.
Unless something fundamental has changed in the game bosses and most trash mobs do not have stats. All they have is health, mana, attack power and armor. Thus Vindication would have no effect in PvE.

It remains a PvP talent, just as it was and should be.
#693SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prinsesa
Unless something fundamental has changed in the game bosses and most trash mobs do not have stats. All they have is health, mana, attack power and armor. Thus Vindication would have no effect in PvE.

It remains a PvP talent, just as it was and should be.
Quoted for emphasis. Vindication in its current form *cannot* be made to have a large PvE impact, because it would then become a required debuff for any encounter.

The inherent potential dooms it to a lifetime of extremes: Either it's useless or you should never raid without it.
#694SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Deac
I think it does work on some trash in ZA, just did first boss and some mobs lost mana/health from it
#695SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Its not just downtime in soloing, duh. It effects all areas of gameplay naturally. Do you know how frustrating it is to run 5 yard behind your enemy for minutes just because you dont get mana from anything? Ok, that was a little exagarated, but all manaclassas should have some built in manaregen. Some dont need huge, just any kind of manaregen so your class isnt shut down completely after you go oom 1st time.
Some classes are balanced around being able to run OOM fast. My shadowpriest can go OOM incredibly fast in Arenas, expecially with another class actively manaburning me, and after shadowfiend I am completely spent, expecially if the other people make an effort to kite/neuter the shadowfiend.

I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests. All DPS classes grind incredibly well, and some DPS classes are incredibly easy to shut down once drained of mana. It is part of the game, and it isn't unique to ret paladins. The SoW change should be a nice boost since it gives you the choice between increased burst and increased longevity like hunters get with aspect of the viper/hawk.
#696SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Some classes are balanced around being able to run OOM fast. My shadowpriest can go OOM incredibly fast in Arenas, expecially with another class actively manaburning me, and after shadowfiend I am completely spent, expecially if the other people make an effort to kite/neuter the shadowfiend.

I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests. All DPS classes grind incredibly well, and some DPS classes are incredibly easy to shut down once drained of mana. It is part of the game, and it isn't unique to ret paladins. The SoW change should be a nice boost since it gives you the choice between increased burst and increased longevity like hunters get with aspect of the viper/hawk.
Increase? You just said you have Shadowfiend. Dont you understand the simple difference between no manaregen and some manaregen? Do you understand what it means to have 0 (zero) mana/5, zero natural regen from talents, zero spirit from gear(Stating this because I dont want to give you backdoors) and zero skils like evocation/lifetap/shadowfiend/shamanisticrage?

I find it rather odd to see you who I consider remotely intelligent person to talk about shadowfiend in same post and then say "I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests". You arent making any sense.
#697SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mearis
Shadowpriests are slightly more dependent on mana than retribution paladin, this is self evident to absolutely anyone. Your white melee DPS is probably 3 or 4x higher than a shadowpriest wanding.

I'd gladly give out shadowfiend for arenas in exchange for 5 or 6 higher damage when OOM. If ret paladins have issues with running out of mana in raids WHILE CHAIN POTTING I have no problem with blizzard actively fixing it, but mana problems in arenas or while grinding are problems that every single class faces except warlocks.
#698SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Shadowpriests are slightly more dependent on mana than retribution paladin, this is self evident to absolutely anyone. Your white melee DPS is probably 3 or 4x higher than a shadowpriest wanding.

I'd gladly give out shadowfiend for arenas in exchange for 5 or 6 higher damage when OOM. If ret paladins have issues with running out of mana in raids WHILE CHAIN POTTING I have no problem with blizzard actively fixing it, but mana problems in arenas or while grinding are problems that every single class faces except warlocks.
So you dont understand the difference between going oom at 1 minute 20seconds and going oom at 5 minutes? By your saying "It is exactly same, because both are eventually oom"? Completely ignoring the actual mana consumption.
#699SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Shalcker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Unless something fundamental has changed in the game bosses and most trash mobs do not have stats. All they have is health, mana, attack power and armor. Thus Vindication would have no effect in PvE.
Can you point me to actual testing on this?

As far as i remember, there is no other debuff that reduces actual stats (other then some lowlevel weapon procs).

Most tests on vindication indicate that at least part of mob attack power, health, and mana comes from raw stats with different scaling. When vindication only reduced strength and agility, people reported about 15% attack reduction on mobs that were not immune to it. Health is also affected according to tests on Infested Root-Walker, vindication expiring at full health (they cast regrowth and heal themselves) drops them to 96% (you can probably test it by mindcontrolling mobs under effect of vindication as well).

Mana can be seen directly, and vindication seem to produce about 10% reduction in max mana.

If mob has agility, at least part of it will probably add to dodge (which equals minor +expertise for everyone). If mob has strength, vindication is also -ap debuff.
#700SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
Even if mobs had stats, remember you'd have to check how much each different mob actually relies on those stats. Just like a boss that got his AP reduced to the minimum possible still does a lot of damage (less, but not like a player with 0 AP...). There are just way too many hidden numbers here to conclude how good vindication would be if it would work on bosses - something that can't even be tested because it just doesn't work.
#701SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Unless something fundamental has changed in the game bosses and most trash mobs do not have stats. All they have is health, mana, attack power and armor. Thus Vindication would have no effect in PvE.

It remains a PvP talent, just as it was and should be.
[Paladin] Protection and you!
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

Originally Posted by fiola View Post
Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.
...
I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP
...
Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks
Vindication does have a PvE effect. I don't expect it to work on any bosses*, but the effect is still there for trash, low level content, and grinding.


*I hear it worked on Nef way back when it was first added - has that been changed?
#702SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Increase? You just said you have Shadowfiend. Dont you understand the simple difference between no manaregen and some manaregen? Do you understand what it means to have 0 (zero) mana/5, zero natural regen from talents, zero spirit from gear(Stating this because I dont want to give you backdoors) and zero skils like evocation/lifetap/shadowfiend/shamanisticrage?

I find it rather odd to see you who I consider remotely intelligent person to talk about shadowfiend in same post and then say "I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests". You arent making any sense.
Ignoring BoW/SoW/JoW, paladins have "no mana regen".

Ignoring the Shadowfiend, priests have "no mana regen" either. Take away evocation, innervate, mana tide totem, shamanistic rage from their respective classes, and they too have "no mana regen".


Your reason for ignoring the paladin's mana abilities was that those abilities could be negated in PvP by purge/dispel, kiting.


Mearis's point was that the Shadow-fiend *can* be negated in PvP as well. The shadowfiend can be CC'd/killed. Once the cooldown is used, that's it for the S-Priest's mana regen.

PvP counters also exist for all of the other class mana regen abilities - evocation is channeled and vulnerable to stuns/interrupts. Innervate is dispellable. Shamanistic rage mana regen can be limited by kiting.


Do PvP counters mean that our mana regen skills do not exist? What about for grinding, your original argument's focus?


** A quick example of how SoW/JoW can be used while grinding:
- SoW + CS to kill one mob within 30 seconds, regaining some mana. (SoW provides somewhere around 121 mp5 while active)
- JoW the next mob and switch back to SoC R1, or re-use SoW.

Even ignoring spirit regen, your SoW/JoW combo regained more mana than you spent. You give up some damage *now* on one mob, but the mana you regen allows you to kill the next mobs faster, reducing overall grinding downtime.
#703SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Lets take example from WoW grinding. Random roll gives us Aether Ray what has Health 5,500 - 5,700. Lets assume I can do 900 dps self buffed on that monster, so it takes me ~7 seconds to kill the mob. Lets make it worst case scenario and say it takes me 14 seconds to kill the monster. What is the difference if I start with JoW instead of JoC in the beginning?

You are completely right Fiola. If you arrange the regen into environment where it theoretically works well. But its completely different from ingame environment and how things work in practise. Judgement of Wisdom is great tool, same can be said for SoW. But they arent properly implemented to be practical. I could say that JoW is perfect regen if I would fight with my bare fists for 10 minutes per monster. But is that contradicting gear improvements where we dont gain any manaregen (unlike shadowpriest who eventually have manacost free spells)?
#704SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ztorm
I'm a raid leader in a horde guild that's currently working on Illidan. One of our paladins has contemplated going Ret once patch 2.3 hits. I'm relatively familiar with the benefits a ret paladin can provide, namely JoW for casters/hunters, a third blessing, 2% dps boost to party via imp sanctity aura, and 3% crit bonus to the raid through judgment of crusader. What I'm unsure of is the amount of DPS I should expect from my Ret pally and which group to put him in. Currently, our damage meters are dominated by rogues: our top 2 rogues are generally 10% above other DPS classes with our 3rd in the top 5. Our melee group consists of 3 rogues, a fury warrior, and an enhancement shaman. The pally is pretty well geared, using mostly TK/Hyjal/BT quality DPS warrior gear and a Torch of the Damned. Considering our raid composition, in which group should I put the Ret pally to best take advantage of his raid benefits? Should I drop a rogue and put him in the melee group, or keep our melee group intact and put him in the tank group with a resto shaman for windfury? Likewise, what type of damage should I expect from our Ret pally assuming that he's well informed/skilled. Equivalent to an enhancement shaman? I understand that the DPS part of my question may be difficult to predict, since 2.3 isn't live yet. If so, please let me know, but I am hoping you guys can give me a rough estimate. Thanks for the help.
#705SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Q: What I'm unsure of is the amount of DPS I should expect from my Ret pally.
You are looking for T5/6 geared Ret paladin around 1300-1600 personal DPS*
I do not count PvP geared and gemmed paladin as properly geared. So make sure if he is trying to DPS to gear perfectly like everyone else does. There is no half way. You HAVE to make him understand that pve dps is about tuning your gear to perfect the given job. Starts from proper gems and ends at proper item selections.

Here is addition what support DPS expectations in 2.3 (I know how I perform in live atm). This is only performed in PTR with 1 group and no raid buffs. But as we can see from the rogue DPS. hes clocking close to what todays highend rogues do. About 2000dps. Hence my personal test DPS can be reflected to hes (Using own common sense is adviced, this is only 1 test and not perfect simulation of DPS capabilities). Please take the result as it is. It is ONLY Blasted Lands test, nothing less, nothing more.

Rogue: Full tier 6 all possible BT epics from Illidan etc
Paladin: Full tier 5 + BT epics and TK/SSC

WWS

#1 Massa 1981 (Rogue)
#2 Desdaaja 1548 (Paladin)

Currently at live servers I am around 1000-1300 dps, so with 2.3 I sould see dramatic increase in DPS due direct damage additions and due threat reduction.

Q: Which group to put him in.
*If hes in melee group.
You will replace 1 of your rogues in melee DPS group since Paladin will give 50-150% more damage from that 1 WF group slot than the rogue (Worst case scenario is dagger rogue). In conjuction the group gains the +2% damage. Its win/win, and your rogue will hopefully get BS from MT group (Lets assume there is 2 warriors or even 1warrior/ druid for crit auta). So the worst rogue from 3 in meele group is removed. To confirm my claims, please take a look at your guild WWS logs and calculate how much your rogues actually benefit from WF.

And 1 thing I want to make sure you understand. Do not EVER judge hes performance from 1 try. Coming from healbot to DPS takes some time to adapt, specially it takes time to adapt to each boss encounter on what is best to do and when. Give him fair opportunity to prove hes stand in farm bosses like Akama, Teron, Anetheron. Make sure he gets fair way to prove what he can do.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/12/07 at 3:29 PM.
#706SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Lets take example from WoW grinding. Random roll gives us Aether Ray what has Health 5,500 - 5,700. Lets assume I can do 900 dps self buffed on that monster, so it takes me ~7 seconds to kill the mob. Lets make it worst case scenario and say it takes me 14 seconds to kill the monster. What is the difference if I start with JoW instead of JoC in the beginning?

You are completely right Fiola. If you arrange the regen into environment where it theoretically works well. But its completely different from ingame environment and how things work in practise. Judgement of Wisdom is great tool, same can be said for SoW. But they arent properly implemented to be practical. I could say that JoW is perfect regen if I would fight with my bare fists for 10 minutes per monster. But is that contradicting gear improvements where we dont gain any manaregen (unlike shadowpriest who eventually have manacost free spells)?
Your scenario is as theoretical as mine is, except I think you made up your numbers rather than using actual usage data. But let's play with your "ingame scenario".


You're able to kill an Aether ray in 7 seconds. That's 3 swings, assuming travel time lets your swing timer reset (meaning you kill mobs every 12 seconds or so). What abilities did you use?

CS - with a 10 second CD, you'd get it off once in the 7 seconds you take to kill the mob
JoC - with a 8/10 second CD, you'd get it off once in the 7 seconds you take to kill the mob.

1x CS - 236 mana
1x JoC - 400~ mana including judge and reseal. 300~ mana if you picked up SJ (which you should if you're doing raid DPS or grinding)


Total mana spent: 536 mana - per mob. You spent 7 seconds killing it.


How long does it take a mage or warlock to kill a mob? How much mana do they spend per mob?
#707SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I think you made up your numbers rather than using actual usage data.
Aether Ray - NPCs - World of Warcraft

Why would I make things up? I know how things work ingame, and I know how things can work in theory. There is no need for making up numbers. And you may want to read the post before replying. Then if you get past the first words, you may want to answer my question. At least my 14sec worst case scenario is closer to the truth than your 30sec, where you said you could gain mana.
#708SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Endahl
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
But is that contradicting gear improvements where we dont gain any manaregen (unlike shadowpriest who eventually have manacost free spells)?
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the statement about mana free spells, but there is no itemization point in the game where you could say that about a shadow priest DPS rotation. It's unattainable in TBC and there's no reason to believe it'll be attainable in future expansions. While our +dmg will increase in WotLK and beyond (thus increasing the regen that VT's 5% translates to), so will the mana costs on new spell ranks.

(Yay for .fi)

Last edited by Endahl : 11/12/07 at 4:18 PM.
#709SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Endahl View Post
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the statement about mana free spells, but there is no itemization point in the game where you could say that about a shadow priest DPS rotation. It's unattainable in TBC and there's no reason to believe it'll be attainable in future expansions. While our +dmg will increase in WotLK and beyond (thus increasing the regen that VT's 5% translates to), so will the mana costs on new spell ranks.

(Yay for .fi)
Common sense is adviced to be used. Your regen increases while your gear improves, while ours doesnt. We dont gain any manaregen from greens to full T6 trough itemization (Exception seals the rule, T6 leggins have grand total of 9 mp5). As said before, no manaregen is a lot different from some manaregen. Not to mention the fact that your gain longevity trough gear improvements where we dont. not only you gain manaregen from items, but also your VT becomes more powerful and your shadow fiend retruns more mana.

Shadowpriest: Items giving manaregen + Shadowfiend gaining power from gear + VT improving trough itemization improvements.
Versus
Paladin: No increase in manaregen from any part of itemization, trough any talents or class specific skills.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/12/07 at 4:29 PM.
#710SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
How long does it take a mage or warlock to kill a mob? How much mana do they spend per mob?
Completely false analogy. Both those classes have gear and talents that actively regen while in combat (or in the case of warlocks just kill themselves for more mana). The only piece of regen gear Ret pallys have in bleeding edge is the few Mp5 off the [Lightbringer Greaves] and the two piece Tier 6 bonus. You can't compare the classes like that. Not to mention most Ret Pallys wear warrior gear, which has no IMT or SPI to help with longevity.
#711SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Aether Ray - NPCs - World of Warcraft

Why would I make things up? I know how things work ingame, and I know how things can work in theory. There is no need for making up numbers. And you may want to read the post before replying. Then if you get past the first words, you may want to answer my question. At least my 14sec worst case scenario is closer to the truth than your 30sec, where you said you could gain mana.
900 self-buffed DPS? Post-mitigation? I highly doubt that.


How long do you think it'll take to kill a mob using 1x SoW, 1x SoC, and Auto? 14 seconds even with the DPS loss?


Alright, so let's kill 2 mobs over 1 SoW.

mob 1 - 1x CS + 1x SoW - 236 + 270 = 506 mana
mob 2 - 1x CS - 236 mana

total: 742 mana


28 seconds of auto-attack with SoW (121 MP5 @ 12 PPM) gives us: 678 mana
28 seconds of BoW (36 MP5): 202 mana
2 ticks of spirit regen. (You'd have to be trying to not get any spirit regen in that rotation): 78 mana

total regen: 886 mana


Gained mana there, and you're killing a mob every 14 seconds. If you still have the ultimate grinding trinket [Power Infused Mushroom], you'd gain another 400 mana doing that.


The point of the example is that you let yourself get some mana regeneration every few mobs. It's like building a raid DPS rotation, except that you're maximizing sustainability rather than DPS.


Once you factor in travel time, spirit regen, and so on, it's easy to build a grinding rotation that has no downtime.
#712SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Completely false analogy. Both those classes have gear and talents that actively regen while in combat (or in the case of warlocks just kill themselves for more mana). The only piece of regen gear Ret pallys have in bleeding edge is the few Mp5 off the [Lightbringer Greaves] and the two piece Tier 6 bonus. You can't compare the classes like that. Not to mention most Ret Pallys wear warrior gear, which has no IMT or SPI to help with longevity.
If we're going to say that paladins don't grind effectively enough compared to other classes, it'd help to define what it means to "grind effectively".


You don't want to compare mana costs, fine.

How much time do they take to kill per mob? Do they have 0 downtime? How many mobs can they kill before they need to evocate/lifetap-drain/drink?

Or is comparing Paladin time to kill and Warlock/Mage time to kill a false analogy?


EDIT:
And how do paladins not have gear and talents that actively regen in combat? SoW/JoW *can't* be used out side of combat! SJ/Benediction are mana cost reducing talents on abilities that are only used in combat.

Last edited by Fiola : 11/12/07 at 4:49 PM.
#713SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
900 self-buffed DPS? Post-mitigation? I highly doubt that.


How long do you think it'll take to kill a mob using 1x SoW, 1x SoC, and Auto? 14 seconds even with the DPS loss?


Alright, so let's kill 2 mobs over 1 SoW.

mob 1 - 1x CS + 1x SoW - 236 + 270 = 506 mana
mob 2 - 1x CS - 236 mana

total: 742 mana


28 seconds of auto-attack with SoW (121 MP5 @ 12 PPM) gives us: 678 mana
28 seconds of BoW (36 MP5): 202 mana
2 ticks of spirit regen. (You'd have to be trying to not get any spirit regen in that rotation): 78 mana

total regen: 886 mana


Gained mana there, and you're killing a mob every 14 seconds. If you still have the ultimate grinding trinket [Power Infused Mushroom], you'd gain another 400 mana doing that.


The point of the example is that you let yourself get some mana regeneration every few mobs. It's like building a raid DPS rotation, except that you're maximizing sustainability rather than DPS.


Once you factor in travel time, spirit regen, and so on, it's easy to build a grinding rotation that has no downtime.
Your logic is flawed because you expect the time being irrelevant. If it takes paladin 30 minutes to kill stuff that someone else kills in 10 minutes, it doesnt make things any better if you are "Grinding without downtime". Could you please be a bit more realistic? And btw, 14sec for 5600 health is 400 dps. Why do I have to tell you these? You can easily calculate them all. or do you think leaving some things out somehow helps your case?
#714SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
If we're going to say that paladins don't grind effectively enough compared to other classes, it'd help to define what it means to "grind effectively".
Kill a good number of mobs with little time wasted eating/drinking. Numbers will vary from person to person.

Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
You don't want to compare mana costs, fine.

How much time do they take to kill per mob? Do they have 0 downtime?
I'm not saying they don't spend a lot more mana to kill a mob than a ret pally. Our spells are pretty cheap compared to most mage and warlock spells. But their general itemization gives them more intellect, and both of them have powerful regen capabilities in their gear, talents, or baseline class. A ret paladins form of regen (BoW/JoW) costs more than its worth against most farming mobs, and is nearly useless in PvP due to every class and their brother having a dispel.

The only class in this game that has 0 downtime is a Warlock (BM hunters come very close though). The ability to Dark Pact/Lifetap back to full mana while running between kills and then drain tanking back to full lets them grind indefinently long.

Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Or is comparing Paladin time to kill and Warlock/Mage time to kill a false analogy?
Its not really a time to kill question (I would think with the amount of burst we have it would be quicker for a et pally to kill something than say an Affliction lock). Its more like a time to OOM for soloing.
#715SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
If we're going to say that paladins don't grind effectively enough compared to other classes, it'd help to define what it means to "grind effectively".


You don't want to compare mana costs, fine.

How much time do they take to kill per mob? Do they have 0 downtime? How many mobs can they kill before they need to evocate/lifetap-drain/drink?

Or is comparing Paladin time to kill and Warlock/Mage time to kill a false analogy?
I know that I can grind about 4-5 times more monsters with my Karazhan geared warlock than my T6 geared paladin. Does that ring any bell to you? And thats without any downtime. Why does paladin have healing spells? Are they not to be used? How efficient grinder you are if you cast 2 HL every now and then? how much you gain from doing it compared to time lost due no manaregen?

Why I get the feeling that you are just arguing over this because you are theoretically correct. And you dont care about reasonable class balance because you can just be against the ingame performance in theoretical level.
#716SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
...
Its not really a time to kill question (I would think with the amount of burst we have it would be quicker for a et pally to kill something than say an Affliction lock). Its more like a time to OOM for soloing.
Time to kill while using a grinding rotation that minimizes downtime.




Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
I know that I can grind about 4-5 times more monsters with my Karazhan geared warlock than my T6 geared paladin. Does that ring any bell to you? And thats without any downtime. Why does paladin have healing spells? Are they not to be used? How efficient grinder you are if you cast 2 HL every now and then? how much you gain from doing it compared to time lost due no manaregen?

Why I get the feeling that you are just arguing over this because you are theoretically correct. And you dont care about reasonable class balance because you can just be against the ingame performance in theoretical level.
Are we balanced if we grind as fast as warlocks?

Do all other classes grind as fast as warlocks?


Since you bring up "reasonable class balance", where does a Ret paladin "deserve" to be relative to the other 8 classes in grinding? Where does the Ret paladin currently rank? Where does the Ret paladin deserve to rank?

Are we aiming for "reasonable personal grinding speed", or "grinds as fast as XYZ class"?


As for your feelings about what I'm trying to do: I want you to defend your position (that we need more buffs). I want you to show that you've actually put thought into how the class is "broken" or "flawed" before lobbying for class changes.

When I read your posts on how the paladin class is lacking in the area of grinding, I feel that you're not trying hard enough, or that you have unreasonable expectations. What are you expectations, and how has the class failed to meet those expectations despite your efforts?

Last edited by Fiola : 11/12/07 at 5:02 PM.
#717SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
And how do paladins not have gear and talents that actively regen in combat? SoW/JoW *can't* be used out side of combat! SJ/Benediction are mana cost reducing talents on abilities that are only used in combat.
How long does green geared Paladin with 6000 mana fight compared to full epic paladin with 6000 mana?
0 seconds difference

How long does green geared SPriest with 6000 mana fight compared to full epic SPriest with 6000 mana?
X seconds difference

Are we balanced if we grind as fast as warlocks?

Do all other classes grind as fast as warlocks?
How we should perform compared to those? 10%? 50%? Equally? Im saying we currently perform a bit too low, we could use some ways to give more goals for itemization improvements. You say we are performing fine. We both have our opinion.

As for your feelings about what I'm trying to do: I want you to defend your position (that we need more buffs). I want you to show that you've actually put thought into how the class is "broken" or "flawed" before lobbying for class changes.
I have done my share of ingame pvp/pve and mana consumption tests, have you? I havent seen your tests anywhere that support your claims, but I have shown my tests and explained them. Where are your tests that declare that we are performing well compared to other classes? I suppose you say next that we are working correctly as our best DPS seal is Rank 1 SoC, without actually thinking what it means from game design point of view.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/12/07 at 5:08 PM.
#718SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
How long does green geared Paladin with 6000 mana fight compared to full epic paladin with 6000 mana?

0 seconds
What?


The full epic paladin can kill the same mob in a shorter period of time, meaning he spends more time regenning while he travels between mobs. His damage efficiency should also be higher, allowing him to do more damage per mana point spent. His higher DPS output means he can kill more mobs in the same period of time as the green pally does.

He can also grind higher level mobs (L70-72) at the same speed the green paladin grinds lower level (ie:65~68) mobs, allowing him higher returns for time spent grinding.


How we should perform compared to those? 10%? 50%? Equally? Im saying we currently perform a bit too low, we could use some ways to give more goals for itemization improvements. You say we are performing fine. We both have our opinion.
What is your expectation? What level of grinding speed is "fine"?

You say it's too low - so what's "just right"? Do you have an objective criteria? "XYZ class/spec can grind faster" does not tell us much, especially since you chose a class reknown for its solo effectiveness.


Where do we stand in comparison in other classes? Where should we stand in comparison to other classes?


I have done my share of ingame pvp/pve and mana consumption tests, have you? I havent seen your tests anywhere that support your claims, but I have shown my tests and explained them. Where are your tests that declare that we are performing well compared to other classes? I suppose you say next that we are working correctly as our best DPS seal is Rank 1 SoC, without actually thinking what it means from game design point of view.
I've focused on my experience: Ret palading grinding. I've grinded my way to exalted with a few TBC factions: Kurenai, Netherwing, and Sporegarr stand out as mindless mob-killing grinds.


It's why I'm suggesting things like BoW, spirit regen, and various other things. I had to develop these sort of techniques in order to grind more effectively/efficiently (drinking after every 2~3 mobs was unacceptable).


I've certainly seen very tangible improvement in grinding speed as I upgraded from L70 blues to L70 epics. (going from LC exalted [Trident of the Outcast Tribe] -> [Hammer of the Naaru] stands out in particular)
#719SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cromfel
So yo dont actually have any theorycraft or experience about other classes to back up with? Do you have alts or have you played other classes at same level of gear to have objective understanding on other classes?

I can say I have grinded a lot with well geared shadowpriest:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Well geared retribution paladin:
The World of Warcraft Armory
(+Shockadin alt)

Decent geared warlock:
The World of Warcraft Armory

I have also done theorycraft inspecting our mana consumption and comparing it to our manaregen and evaluating those to ingame environments in theoretical. If you dont have anything but your arrogance against me, we have little to nothing to discuss here. Does your reputation grind reflect our state in highend PvE boss encounters? PvP arenas? Do you have any theorycraft attempting to evaluate our situation or is it all just how you think it works?
#720SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
So yo dont actually have any theorycraft or experience about other classes to back up with? Do you have alts or have you played other classes at same level of gear to have objective understanding on other classes?
When did this turn into an epeen contest?


We're discussing Ret paladin grinding. You have 2 L70 alts that allow you to compare the grinding speed of said classes to a paladin. Good for your perspective.


Said classes (S-Priest/Warlock) do grind faster. I'd expect that - they're DPS class/specs, and damage done is one of the major factors of grinding speed. But what does that say about Ret paladin grinding speed? What's the % of XYZ class grinding speed that you expect?



I have also done theorycraft inspecting our mana consumption and comparing it to our manaregen and evaluating those to ingame environments in theoretical and ingame point of view. If you dont have anything but your arrogance against me, we have little to nothing to discuss here. Does your reputation grind reflect our state in highend PvE boss encounters? PvP arenas? Do you have any theorycraft attempting to evaluate our situation or is it all just how you think it works?
Weren't we talking about grinding speed just now?

I've spent a ridiculous number of game hours grinding with my Ret paladin. Is that not relevant to that discussion? Must I be in a T6 guild that kills Illidan, decked out with the best of gear available in WoW, in order to qualify for commenting on Ret paladin grinding speed?


Does the gear we wear improve the quality of our feedback? Your experience doesn't override mine any more than mine overrides yours.

If you think my theorycraft is so completely flawed, why don't you show me the errors in my math or assumptions? Or am I arrogant for using math to back up my arguments?
#721SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Where is the math you talk of? I havent seen you doing anything that would evaluate our mana consumption. While using SoW verus damage lost, while using JoW verus damage lost and mana lost. Where is this math you speak of?

And stop making it e-peen meter. You asked question about my ways of evaluating our mana consumption and I gave them. Why start craptalking me when I just answer to your question? You said you understand how things work for other classes also, yet you dont have any experience about them? Would my point be valid if I had green geared alts? Item level has nothing to do with results as we know our manaregen does not improve over gear upgrades unlike warlocks or shadowpriests. If you dont have any idea how they work, why are you commenting?

Edit: Actually this conversation is horribly boring and totally stupid. Im done here. There is absolutely no reason to continue as we arent getting anywhere. Feel free to give me PM if you have any further questions.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/12/07 at 6:00 PM.
#722SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Where is the math you talk of? I havent seen you doing anything that would evaluate our mana consumption. While using SoW verus damage lost, while using JoW verus damage lost and mana lost. Where is this math you speak of?

And stop making it e-peen meter. You asked question about my proofs and I gave them. Why start craptalking me when I just answer to your question?
I did do a brief math post. You dismissed it by saying it took too long a time period, while not actually disproving it. (The goal in grinding isn't the highest possible DPS - it's sustainability)

If you can't even disprove a preliminary number based on flawed assumptions (like 900 self-buffed DPS post-mitigation on an undebuffed higher level target), what does that say about *your* knowledge of grinding theorycraft?

Furthermore, why should I honor a made-up number with an hour or two of math?


If you're willing to set out an objective target (100% sustained no-downtime grinding, for one example), I'll happily oblige and show how you can build such a rotation.


As for e-peenery, you're putting up your S-Priest and warlock as proof that you have Ret grinding credentials. I didn't ask you to show that you've spent a lot of time on other classes. I wanted you to back up your claim that "Ret doesn't grind well", preferably by showing that you've put thought into grinding efficiently with Ret.

All you've shown so far is that you've grinded with a warlock/S-Priest (how about a Disc/Holy priest?), while not specifying *how* Ret grinds too slowly.


The fact that you can't even come up with a "realistic" grind rotation to counter my brief simplistic model (on how SoW/JoW can be a mana-regaining cycle) is telling. You run OOM while grinding on your Ret paladin and therefore it must be a class problem; god forbid someone questions *what* your grinding playstyle is.
#723SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Knock your self out mate:

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/re...comparison.jpg
(Expected manapool 6000. Spirit regen included in estimations)

You can draw what ever conclusions you want. Its simplified ofcourse, as you personally said...

Furthermore, why should I honor a made-up number with an hour or two of math?
And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/12/07 at 6:48 PM.
#724SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Denogran
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Knock your self out mate:

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/re...comparison.jpg
(Expected manapool 6000)

You can draw what ever conclusions you want. Its simplified ofcourse, as you personally said...



And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".
Why is a decrease in dps versus a longevity issue a problem? I have a warlock alt, and I can only grind indefinitely if I'm draining life, which certainly is not my highest dps spell.

My warrior doesn't grind nearly as efficiently as my pally did (he's only level 62 atm), and if you factor in the gy-runs from o-shit moments than occasionally happen, it gets even worse. I'd imagine it's the same with rogues. Why aren't you comparing pallies to these classes instead of warlocks, the most overpowered class in the game?

Without being too impertinent, may I ask why you so strongly feel entitled to be better at grinding? I have a prot pally, and I'm basically useless in PVP and grinding. But, I do a very effective and fulfilling job in PVE groups, and I knew going in that PVP and grinding were not going to be things I would even be nominally good at. Healers have even a worse time of it than us tanks.
#725SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Argavaine
I dont know about all classes but I play a warlock and a rogue and I have made the same observation as Cromfel. Ret grinding has to many downtimes compared to other dps classes. Holy priest and resto druids have the same problems like holy paladin which are adressed in the new patch.
#726SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Even ignoring spirit regen, your SoW/JoW combo regained more mana than you spent. You give up some damage *now* on one mob, but the mana you regen allows you to kill the next mobs faster, reducing overall grinding downtime.
Really?

Lets see how all out DPS compares to SoW regen:
Using SoW/BoW over SoC/BoM: 38% damage lost. Giving you 38 seconds time window to drink to be as efficient with all out DPS. Where you need only 25seconds to drink to full and hence perform better. Your grinding efficiency is worse by using your only manaregen compared to not using anything and just drinking between. And I will start my next kill rotation 13 seconds earlier than you. Where exactly is your reduction in overall grinding downtime? Im not even counting the health gain while eating that also is beneficial to all out grinding.

How about BoW only but still not using JoW/SoW:
Using BoW over BoM: 4% damage loss and 15% duration increased. Giving 11% more efficient grinding. Relatively our grinding havent really improved from the start state. Not dramatically enough to say it would be decent grinding machine.

I dont know about all classes but I play a warlock and a rogue and I have made the same observation as Cromfel. Ret grinding has to many downtimes compared to other dps classes. Holy priest and resto druids have the same problems like holy paladin which are adressed in the new patch.
Thank you. We have our observations and knowledge from field, as we have tested multiple classes.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/12/07 at 7:48 PM.
#727SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3galzohar
You guys talk so much about seal of wisdom yet I don't see no comparison of SoW grinding to just drinking. Honestly if you spend less mana per mob than a mage then the mage's only advantage is higher spirit regen when walking between mobs, ~4-5k mana every 10 minutes and less walking due to 41 yard range. While these seem like small differences, in my experience it seems to actually be quite significantly:

-Time between mobs is significant when grinding. The more your gear improves, the more significant it is. As long as mobs are melee ranged classes (or at least mages by my experience) have the major advantage here by pulling the mob to them rather than walking to the mob. As a pally I do drag the mob while meleeing it so I can pull the next asap but it just doesn't feel as effective at least until you're at a gear level where you can safely handle 2 without increased downtime and yet you kill them slow enough that they don't die before you even get close to the next mob...

-spirit regen is a small, yet noticeable addition to your grinding speed. This is especially noticeable when you grind really weak mobs (and/or with really good gear) and therefore your time between mobs increases. It gets to the point where on some mobs my mage drinks once (for 30s, sometimes twice) every 10 minutes and evocates every 10 minutes. Of course a lot of these are situational but it's another place where paladins have disadvantages, although this point is much less significant than the others.

-As you can see, as the mana cost per mob decreases and the time between mobs rises, stuff like evocation and shadowfiend gain value, while SoW loses value (as while reducing DPS is also not used full time and definitely not the judgmenet).

As you can see even if paladins are more mana efficient, it just doesn't cut it - there are too many other factors for fast grinding.

If you compare paladin grinding to rogue/warrior grinding it's not even close as those can bandage thier HP to be faster than eating, while palainds can't bandage their mana to be faster than drinking. As gear levels get higher this only gets more significant.

I would just like to add that while I'm still leveling my paladin, I spend 700-1300 mana per mob (levels 50-52) at lvl56, which is like 2-4 lvl54 fireballs which is what a mage my level would be using if geared properly, taking 6-12s to kill a mob while I'm taking something like 8-15. It's really hard to measure those kind of things though especially due to the variance of DPS having a very large impact on grinding speed (higher variance means slower grinding even at equal average DPS due to overkilling mobs. My mage still holds some fiery wrath gear to swap some epics that don't have enough spell damage for that reason).

Also if you compare paladin regen abilities to other classes paladin's reduces DPS the most by far compared to all of them while regening quite slowly (30s to regen mana for 30s of grinding (by your numbers)? come on!).

Back to raiding?
#728SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Wow, 2 pages of back and forth about an issue which really needs no discussion.


Fiola, here's the situation:

1. For any DPS specced class in the game, as your gear improves, your DPS increases, so you're able to grind more mobs in the same time frame.

This is also true for ret paladins. So no problems here.

2. For most DPS specced classes in the game, as your gear improves, your downtime decreases while grinding.

This however, is NOT true for ret paladins. This is the problem. This is what we're talking about.


You might question whether this is the case, so I'll break it down further.

Downtime consists of 2 things: Needing to refill your A. Healthbar and needing to refill your B. Mana/Energy/Rage bar.

A. Healthbar: For every class in the game, as your gear improves, you take less damage per mob/time frame and thereby have less downtime refilling your healthbar.

This is mainly due to the fact that by increased DPS, you can kill things faster, giving the mobs less time to hit you.

For casters this means killing things before they even reach you, or taking much less hits, thereby almost completely negating having to refill your healthbar.

For melee classes better gear also means more armor, more dodge, more overall mitigation. Also your DPS reaches a point where you can kill things before they come out of your stunlock, thereby taking very little to no damage per mob. You can go on forever (almost) or only taking quick bandage breaks every nth mob, where n rises the more your gear improves.

This is also true for ret paladins. So no problems here.


B. Mana/Energy/Rage bar:

-For Energy/Rage based classes (Rogues/Warriors/Ferals) this is a non issue. Energy/Rage is virtually INFINITE and you never have to use consumables and a long downtime to refill it, as a matter of fact rage promotes constant grinding rather than taking breaks so you don't lose rage. These classes have no other downtime besides refilling their healthbars, energy/rage downtime does not exist.

-For Mana based classes this is the main downtime issue. However, you'll notice that while this downtime is reduced by improved gear for almost every mana based class, this is NOT true for ret paladins.

The key word here is scaling.

A priest doing more damage receives more mana back from Vampiric Touch (and even HP from Vampiric Embrace) as his gear improves.

A warlock can life tap/drain for much more as he gains more spelldamage.

An enhancement Shaman with Shamanistic Rage gains mana back based on his AP, as this AP increases, so does his mana regen.

A mage, well, mages are based on being the water factories of the game. Furthermore, Evocation is percent based on the mage's mana bar, meaning the more total mana you get from your improved gear, the more evocation gives you.

A Hunter's aspect of the viper is percent based on his/her intellect and improves as the hunter gains more int through gear.


That's every class in the game for you.

Now paladins?

BoW does not improve with gear. JoW does not improve with gear. Benediction/Sanctified Judgement are fixed and do not improve with gear.

Our itemization barely improves our mana efficiency in any way. Due to the (faulty) way the class is designed, we need too many stats for there to be room for mana regen. An item with itemvalue spent on mana regen is almost always going to be a downgrade (if it existed).


As such, it's true that a green geared and an epic geared ret paladin will still have the same mana based downtime.

Furthermore, it's not like we're given any powerful cooldown to make up for this (see mage Evocation).


Why is scaling important?

Because that's what the game is based on. This is the core of WoW. Without scaling, without constant improvement, without the carrot on a stick, there's nothing to aim for.


Anyway, that's my attempt at putting a lid on whether this is a relevant issue or not. It is.
#729SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
Btw, is bellator MIA? Hoping for a new version and some response to my feedback a few pages back
#730SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3panny
These comparisons about grinding speed aren't exactly fair since Paladins can heal, have plate armor, and a variety of different resist auras, etc. Every class/spec grinds differently. I really think the complaints about grinding speed are bordering on whining considering the grinding speed of healing specced characters.

If you're going to discuss scaling, it'd better be with real numbers rather than a generalised "oh at T10, Paladin grinding speed is pathetic since it doesn't scale". Elemental Shaman and Moonkin Druids' mana regen scales with Int, but I'd be surprised if anyone argued they grinded better than any melee class.
#731SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Avitus
If you had spent half a minute actually reading what has been written you wouldn't be posting this.
#732SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Prinsesa
Am I correct in the assumption that JoW actually scales *backwards* as our gear level increases?

That is, since JoW is strictly on a percentage-based chance to proc (instead of a PPM), as we start to deal more damage, we can kill the mob in less hits. Less hits means less JoW procs, which means less mana returned per mob.
#733SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
If you had spent half a minute actually reading what has been written you wouldn't be posting this.
You're wrong. You said you covered every class, but you didn't cover every spec. You didn't even cover every DPS spec. You deliberately chose to compare with specs that would favour your conclusion.

Using downtime as a measure of grinding effectiveness is stupid because it doesn't matter what your downtime is, all that matters is mobs per total grinding time. Breaking up mobs_over_total_time into DPS_per_mob and percent_of_resource_per_mob and pointing out that one scales upwards and the other scales downwards for ret paladins DOESN'T MATTER unless you show that there actually exists a point where the ret paladin is... what? Marginalized? No one has even defined what they consider to be an unacceptable 'grinding speed' anyway.

Scaling DOESN'T MATTER unless you show the conditions for unacceptable scaling can currently exist in-game.

Also: saying JoW scales negatively is incorrect. If you can kill an average mob faster, then you'll use less mana overall. Also, the fact that JoW is percentage based rather than PPM wouldn't have any effect anyway.
#734SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jusion
Originally Posted by panny View Post
You're wrong. You said you covered every class, but you didn't cover every spec. You didn't even cover every DPS spec. You deliberately chose to compare with specs that would favour your conclusion.
That's because it pretty dumb to level with most specs other than 1 for most classes. Why the hell should it matter if some idiot has a hard time leveling with some custom spec? Most (smart) levelers know which spec is the "leveling spec" and use that. If you want to level as an elemental shaman, holy priest, etc when there are more viable specs for leveling, go ahead, be bad. But ret is really THE leveling spec, and its worse than the other leveling specs, according to these posters.

Although, I agree with the rest of your post.
#735SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Also: saying JoW scales negatively is incorrect. If you can kill an average mob faster, then you'll use less mana overall. Also, the fact that JoW is percentage based rather than PPM wouldn't have any effect anyway.
Actually, you're wrong here. For JoW less melee hits means less procs means less mana returned. The quicker you kill a mob the less hits you will be having against them. Therefore, the quicker you kill a mob the worse it is. Actually, as you will see JoW isn't even very useful when soloing.



The graph is time (in 3.8 second autoattacks) versus mana restored while only using autoattacks. Assuming a 50% proc chance (every other melee attack), you will gain more mana the longer a fight progresses, which naturally makes sence. However, if you can kill the mob in a very short amount of time (for example 2 autoattack periods) you will actually end up losing mana. This is a result of as follows.

To figure out how much mana it cost to judge a mob you can use the formula {(Seal cost) + (Judgement cost) - (Seal Cost * .50)}. Judgement of Wisdom therefore costs:
270 + 147 - (.50 * 270) = 282 mana

So before you can see any gain from Judgement of Wisdom you have to make up the 282 mana it cost to cast the spell. By plugging it into the equation we can determine how many autoattack cycles it will take to restore the mana cost of the spell.
y = 34 * x
282 = 34 * x
8.294... = x

So you will need over 8 autoattack cycles just to make up the cost of Judging the target. Thats over 30 seconds! Things of course become more complicated when you try to factor in other abilities like CS and more Judgements. These will increase the proc rate, but in addition your mana consumption will also increase. Basically this shows that if you can autoattack the mob to death in less than 30 seconds you are better off not judging the mob at all.

JoW is actually worse for your regen the faster you kill judged mobs. It is not passive regen like the "INT = Mp5" you pointed out for Shamans and Boomkins and can not be compared to them. JoW requires a very heavy and active investment to see any return or increase. It is never active between kills like the Mp5 talents that other classes have, and as is shown above does not really help a huge deal when it takes 30 seconds just to make up the cost of the spell.

Judgement of Wisdom is not a mana restoring ability in most soloing situations and should never be treated as one. It is simply a stopgap that slows your eventual time to OOM. The only true form of active regen we have is drinking, which means more downtime which means less efficient soloing.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/13/07 at 1:19 AM.
#736SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cavalier
Penny, He didn't need to add Elemental shaman or Balance Druid to the equation for the simple fact they both have a scaleing mp5 talent built into their tree (10% of int to mp5).

This is in addition to any other (moonkin form, innervate, mana totem, water shield) ways in which they can regen mana during combat. The tree has built in scaling manaregen.


Also, JoW/SoW being PPM rather than the percentage based it is now means that at some point (preferably 3.0 and slower) a weapon will proc it every hit.

Slow weapons (the only kind a ret paladin uses due to mechanics) have a horrible rate of proccing JoW/SoW specifically because they *aren't* ppm.

Last edited by Cavalier : 11/13/07 at 1:32 AM.
#737SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Penny, He didn't need to add Elemental shaman or Balance Druid to the equation for the simple fact they both have a scaleing mp5 talent built into their tree (10% of int to mp5).

This is in addition to any other (moonkin form, innervate, mana totem, water shield) ways in which they can regen mana during combat. The tree has built in scaling manaregen.


Also, JoW/SoW being PPM rather than the percentage based it is now means that at some point (preferably 3.0 and slower) a weapon will proc it every hit.

Slow weapons (the only kind a ret paladin uses due to mechanics) have a horrible rate of proccing JoW/SoW specifically because they *aren't* ppm.
All the other classes/specs that he mentioned have a scaling mana regeneration mechanism, and he mentioned them. Mana Spring Totem does NOT scale, and is fairly horrid for a non-resto Shaman, especially in a grinding environment. Water Shield doesn't scale. Moonkin form has mana regen in the form of... melee strikes, which is so pathetic it's not worth mentioning. Innervate does scale, you have me on that. Regarding int -> mp5... Conando from EJ has 465 int. When you consider the mana that a fresh level 70 has something like 300 int? 200 int? At most, that's a gain of about 26mp5, definitely not earth shaking scaling for a caster.

But the point is that these things don't matter without a solid definition of what's an acceptable grind rate and whether that rate occurs in the game. Imagine if JoW restored 500 mana per proc. It still wouldn't scale and there would exist some theoritical gear level (T30) where Paladins would be horrible at grinding compared to other classes. But would there still be a percieved problem with scaling? Hardly.

jusion, I thought this discussion was more about raiding 70s grinding, not leveling, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
#738SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by panny View Post
All the other classes/specs that he mentioned have a scaling mana regeneration mechanism, and he mentioned them. Mana Spring Totem does NOT scale, and is fairly horrid for a non-resto Shaman, especially in a grinding environment. Water Shield doesn't scale. Moonkin form has mana regen in the form of... melee strikes, which is so pathetic it's not worth mentioning. Innervate does scale, you have me on that. Regarding int -> mp5... Conando from EJ has 465 int. When you consider the mana that a fresh level 70 has something like 300 int? 200 int? At most, that's a gain of about 26mp5, definitely not earth shaking scaling for a caster.
Mana spring totem may not scale, however the other trees of shaman barely care.. one has cost reduction from critical spell strikes and the other has melee strikes conversion into mana. Both of these will scale with +crit/+hit respectively as well. Paladins have -nothing- that scales mana regen in this aspect.

As someone who has also levelled and played several classes/specs at 70, I also feel that retribution paladin is indeed the least efficient in killing the most amount of mobs before having to break in the least amount of time. My feral druid keeps going with just a heal and an innervate, dont even need to stop. My lock drains when on low health, darkpacts/lifetaps/soul drains when low on mana, indefinitely. My warrior is a bandage making machine.

For sure, a retribution paladin could throttle back the abilities used to conserve mana so that they may kill more before needing to drink. Although, auto-attacking mobs to death isn't anywhere near efficient and the more you leave a mob alive, the more damage you will take and you'll need to either heal via spells which depletes your mana or bandage which you probably didn't need to if you just whooped the crap out of the said mob.

Problem with retadins is that there is very little middle ground to find in regards to damage vs time efficiency. You either do more damage and sit out for a while.. or you do damage for a while and sit out every so often.
#739SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jusion
Originally Posted by panny View Post
jusion, I thought this discussion was more about raiding 70s grinding, not leveling, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh, in that case I retract what I said.
#740SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Knock your self out mate:

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/re...comparison.jpg
(Expected manapool 6000. Spirit regen included in estimations)

You can draw what ever conclusions you want. Its simplified ofcourse, as you personally said...
Thanks for doing some math I can respond to. I'll cover it in a second.


And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".
You made the first claim, which is that Ret paladins grind poorly, and then followed up with numbers with minimal context. Why does it take a full page of discussion before you're willing to use math to back up your claim? This is a theorycraft forum, and math is the primary proof for any claim.


The post I responded to talked about "no manaregen" for pallies, which is flat out false. Paladins have SoW/JoW/BoW at the baseline, which are (in-combat) mana regen abilities. 2 of them are applied once and give a passive (in-combat) bonus for a long period of time.

If you simply said we had limited, non-scaling manaregen, your post would be truthful and I'd have no beef with it.


Okay, you counter that SoW/JoW are no good in grinding, so they might as well not exist. Let's look at the actual numbers.


First off, you say that you do 900 DPS self-buffed, and that you can kill a 5.5k life mob in 7 seconds. You might do 900 raw DPS, but the 72 mob in question has armor, and at least half of your damage is not Holy.


Using your numbers
309 character sheet DPS
CS does 1116 damage per hit (no JotC, 112 DPS@10 seconds now; 186 DPS@6 seconds)
SoC adds 93.1 DPS. (unbuffed melee hit * 70% damage procs * 7 PPM / 60 seconds)
JoC adds 430 damage (using your values without JotC; this is assuming 219 JotC, since you don't specify)

(At full burn, these abilities would yield 570~ DPS on a 30% AC target)


Adjusted damage with 30% crit and 30% AC factored:
281 white DPS
1038 damage per CS
93 121 SoC DPS
430 559 damage per JoC

EDIT: Oops! Forgot crit damage bonus for SoC/JoC. Unfortunately, I don't have time to update the math below, but I think the math gets my point across.

How long does it take you to kill an Aether Ray (5.5k hp)?

Using 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoC + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281 + 93) ~= 11 seconds;
Mana Use: 236 + 130 + 280 = 646 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 79.2 mana from BoW, 39 mana from spirit (2 seconds) = 258.2 mana
Net Mana Use: 427 mana


Using 1x CS + 1x JoW + SoC + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038) / (281 + 93) ~= 12 seconds;
Mana Use 236 + 130 + 280 = 646 mana
Mana Regen: 135 mana from SJ, 86.4 mana from BoW, 209 mana from JoW, 78.5 mana from spirit (4 seconds) = 508.9
Net Mana Use: 137 mana


Using 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281) ~= 14 seconds;
Mana Use: 236 + 130 + 270 = 636 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 100.8 mana from BoW, 427 mana from SoW (assume 12 PPM, includes CS average proc rate), 117.6 mana from spirit (6 seconds)
Net Mana Use: -149.4 (Net mana gain!)


Using 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 430) / (281) ~= 18 seconds;
Mana Use: 130 + 270 = 400 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 129.6 mana from BoW, 436 mana from SoW, 157 mana from spirit (8 seconds)
Net Mana Use: -462.6 mana


Note: Ignored Benediction for seal costs; Judgement cost is a guess, since I can never remember how much it costs with and without Benediction; Forgot to include Vengeance, but it shouldn't affect results too much; spirit regen numbers are deliberately under-estimated to generate more of a worst-case scenario


CONCLUSION:

Looking at this simplified math, you could chain together Combo 2 and Combo 3 for net mana GAIN, killing 2 mobs every 26 seconds and ignoring travel time (which adds more spirit/mp5 regen, meaning you can afford to be more liberal with your mana -> use more DPS abilities). Using JoC + SoW (Combo 3) only loses 2 seconds of kill time versus 1x JoW + SoC. (Combo 2)


If you used the mushroom trinket, Combo 2 becomes a net gain in mana, and you can start sprinkling in Combo 1 into your grind rotation liberally. Also note that I've ignored SoC R1 as a potential combo. SoC R1 has borderline retarded efficiency (until Blizzard"fixes" it), which is highly useful for grinding (aiming for highest sustained DPS possible; mana efficiency == double plus good)


13 seconds to kill a mob on average and you're gaining mana. How is Ret grinding horrible? It doesn't match what a warlock can do with fear + DoTs on multi-targets (due to DoT +dmg scaling), but it's certainly respectable - though that really depends on *your* expectations.


What do you consider to be a reasonable grind rate for a Ret paladin?



EDIT Note: I forgot to add in the crit rate damage bonus for SoC/JoC. However, I think that the math still shows how SoW/JoW can be weaved into a rotation for better sustained grinding. Since the math ignores travel time, the reality is that you'll have more mana to do Combo 1 for higher DPS - as long as you're willing to abuse spirit regen in between mobs.

Last edited by Fiola : 11/13/07 at 4:01 AM.
#741SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
You are still making assumptions based on your narrow ingame testing without any comparison to other classes. As others have also said, you are wrong. Only because you can be against me. This is crystal clear to me, as it isnt first time you start your speculative assumptions and dont have any real information to back up your claims.

"What do you consider to be a reasonable grind rate for a Ret paladin?"

Thats the question what you need to answer. Im still not entitled to do your homework. I have done mine. Ingame testing multiple classes, theory behind our own manaconsumption and double checking them ingame to verify results.

How is Ret grinding horrible ... but it's certainly respectable
Where do you show this conclusion and whats the base of this assumption? Is it safe to say just you just draw that conclusion out of air, since you dont have any 1st hand experience?

If you simply said we had limited, non-scaling manaregen, your post would be truthful and I'd have no beef with it.
Exactly as I expected. Have a nice day mate

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/13/07 at 4:45 AM.
#742SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Originally Posted by panny View Post
All the other classes/specs that he mentioned have a scaling mana regeneration mechanism, and he mentioned them. Mana Spring Totem does NOT scale, and is fairly horrid for a non-resto Shaman, especially in a grinding environment. Water Shield doesn't scale. Moonkin form has mana regen in the form of... melee strikes, which is so pathetic it's not worth mentioning. Innervate does scale, you have me on that. Regarding int -> mp5... Conando from EJ has 465 int. When you consider the mana that a fresh level 70 has something like 300 int? 200 int? At most, that's a gain of about 26mp5, definitely not earth shaking scaling for a caster.
You're still missing the point.

Point is, I don't have to pick every single spec/class, but it's sufficient to pick "one" spec per class that shows scalable downtime reduction (read regen based on gear), expecting this from every spec is ridiculous.

Similarly, not every single regen ability has to scale with gear, however at least "one" has to (or at least enough to make a difference with improving gear).

All those specs/classes have some form of regen that is improved based on their gear, as illustrate in my previous post.

Ret does not have this.


A green geared paladin can run around killing things for 5 mins for example before he has to sit down and drink to full.

An epic geared paladin? Same.


Now do this comparison (green geared vs epic geared) for any of the other classes (using their grinding specs obviously) and you'll see that they have to spend less time regenning the better their gear is.

Can you deny this?


Originally Posted by panny View Post
Using downtime as a measure of grinding effectiveness is stupid because it doesn't matter what your downtime is, all that matters is mobs per total grinding time. Breaking up mobs_over_total_time into DPS_per_mob and percent_of_resource_per_mob and pointing out that one scales upwards and the other scales downwards for ret paladins DOESN'T MATTER unless you show that there actually exists a point where the ret paladin is... what? Marginalized? No one has even defined what they consider to be an unacceptable 'grinding speed' anyway.
How exactly is it your prerogative to define what a correct measure of grinding effectiveness is?

Of course it matters what your downtime is, it's part of the grinding process.

Grinding is broken up into two things: The speed you kill things (your DPS) and the speed you regen back to be able to kill more things (your downtime).

Almost every class has at least one grinding spec where it receives both a buff to their DPS as well as a reduction to their downtime as their gear improves, as I illustrated in my previous post.


Ret does not get reduced downtime as gear improves. You're still stuck drinking to full for 30 secs every 5 mins (example), whether green geared or epic geared.
#743SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
I am genuinly at a loss how you went from serious concerns that were adressed like threat reduction, increased damage, etc, that anyone sensible agreed with, to demanding increased mana regen when solo play.

A paladin in full tier5 probably grinds at least 2x as fast as a raid spec'd healer of any class even in full t6 gear. Grinding in wow is incredibly easy, complaining about that really makes you look petty.
#744SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Fiola
I had to develop these sort of techniques in order to grind more effectively/efficiently (drinking after every 2~3 mobs was unacceptable)...

...It's like building a raid DPS rotation, except that you're maximizing sustainability rather than DPS...

...However, I think that the math still shows how SoW/JoW can be weaved into a rotation for better sustained grinding.
Your "Mana Efficient" Grinding rotations:

Using SoC 1x + 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281) ~= 14 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 236 + 130 + 270 = 916 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 100.8 mana from BoW, 427 mana from SoW (assume 12 PPM, includes CS average proc rate), 117.6 mana from spirit (6 seconds) = 785.4
Your Net Mana Use: -149.4 (Net mana gain!)
Real Net Mana Use: 130.6


Using SoC 1x + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 430) / (281) ~= 18 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 130 + 270 = 680 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 129.6 mana from BoW, 436 mana from SoW, 157 mana from spirit (8 seconds) = 862.6
Your Net Mana Use: -462.6 mana
Real Net Mana Use: -182.6 mana

You are grinding 100 monsters in average of 1600 seconds, while using your zero managain/manaloss rotations that would keep your grinding infinetely up mana wice. But you still have to heal from time to time. Lets say you spend 1 HL every 2 monsters (about 2800 healed monsters dealing 87 dps to you) thats 131 mana consumed for healing. Meaning you would still need to drink 4 times giving you extra downtime of 105 seconds.

Your total time now being 1705 seconds for 100 Aether Rays.

What would happen if we used normal grinding rotations?

Using SoC 1x + 1x CS + white + 1x JoC:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281 + 93) ~= 11 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 236 + 130 = 646 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 79.2 mana from BoW, 39 mana from spirit (2 seconds) = 258.2 mana
Net Mana Use: 387.8 mana

I am grinding 100 monsters in average of 1100 seconds, while using 387.8 mana per 5sec. Hence I would go oom every 77.4 seconds. I would need to drink 14 times. Every time spending 25 seconds to gain full mana bar, thats 355.3 seconds. I dont need to heal because I eat while I am drinking.

I have now used total of 1455.3 seconds to grind 100 Aether Rays.

Result?

I am grinding 15% more efficiently than you, by using normal all out damage rotation. While you are spending 4 minutes more time to the same grinding job than I would do. Where exactly is this efficient grinding and manaregen you speak of? You are only shooting your self to the foot by using SoW/JoW with rotations that you presented to be highly efficient and what "I am not trying hard enough to use". Even if we completely ignored health loss, you would be 10% more inefficient grinder than I am. Is it safe to agree now that we dont have any practical manaregen abilities? Did we really have to do all this, what you should have done in the first place, before starting to throw wild assumptions without any real testing or theorycraft?

You "think" that the math still shows how SoW/JoW can be weaved into a rotation for better sustained grinding, since when these forums are used to throw these wild assumptions as facts, even when the reality is different? If you dont know how it works, dont post. Calculate how things work and then post if you are sure about your results. Grinding is field test what has large margin of error. If you WWS logged your grinding periods, evaluated the results from your grinding periods. Calculated them and then double checked the theory by another testing period, then you should post your results. Just like I did. You havent done anything but "You think", that grinding experiment where your ingame results only give you rotation that allows you to grind infinitely without drinking, are "developed techniques". Thats only finding lazy way, thats not finding efficient way.

For reference: See above comment by flyingtoastr and other replies where people have evaluated Retribution performance between different classes. Dont think, know...

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr
So you will need over 8 autoattack cycles just to make up the cost of Judging the target. Thats over 30 seconds! Things of course become more complicated when you try to factor in other abilities like CS and more Judgements. These will increase the proc rate, but in addition your mana consumption will also increase. Basically this shows that if you can autoattack the mob to death in less than 30 seconds you are better off not judging the mob at all.

JoW is actually worse for your regen the faster you kill judged mobs. It is not passive regen like the "INT = Mp5" you pointed out for Shamans and Boomkins and can not be compared to them. JoW requires a very heavy and active investment to see any return or increase. It is never active between kills like the Mp5 talents that other classes have, and as is shown above does not really help a huge deal when it takes 30 seconds just to make up the cost of the spell.
Have a nice day.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/13/07 at 7:30 AM.
#745SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0panny
do you seriously think that if it takes both you and a warlock the same amount of time to kill 20 mobs but you had to spend 30% of that time oom autoattacking that is an issue
#746SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
A paladin in full tier5 probably grinds at least 2x as fast as a raid spec'd healer of any class even in full t6 gear. Grinding in wow is incredibly easy, complaining about that really makes you look petty.
Why are we comparing Retribution specced Paladin to healing specced ones? Shouldnt we compare DPS specs to DPS spec? Feral druid, extremely good grind machine. No downtime (Dont want to post armory URL as some get offended by it). Shadowpriest, extremely good grinder. Ench shaman, godlike grinding machine, no downtime.

And where is our Retribution Paladin?
#747SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Because grinding is so incredibly imbalanced and Blizzard has zero intention of adressing it. A prot pala is probably the best AoE killing class in the game if you fight in the right areas.

If your most pressing complaint is that you are not able to grind as fast as an affliction warlock can you perhaps admit that that the battle is won and not whine about such incredibly petty issues?
#748SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cavalier
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
I am genuinly at a loss how you went from serious concerns that were adressed like threat reduction, increased damage, etc, that anyone sensible agreed with, to demanding increased mana regen when solo play.

A paladin in full tier5 probably grinds at least 2x as fast as a raid spec'd healer of any class even in full t6 gear. Grinding in wow is incredibly easy, complaining about that really makes you look petty.

It's not just grinding though, this is the same issue Ret paladins have during raids. Long bossfights = oom unless you have a spriest or resto shaman. neither of which should be in the melee group.

Mana regen which doesn't scale = bad.
Mana regen that scales = good.

No paladin mana regen abilities scale, not one bit. This can most easily be shown while solo which is why they are using grinding as a basis for comparison. Besides the fact that either the tanking or healing tree grinds more efficiently than the DPS tree.. which is just wrong.

Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Because grinding is so incredibly imbalanced and Blizzard has zero intention of adressing it. A prot pala is probably the best AoE killing class in the game if you fight in the right areas.

If your most pressing complaint is that you are not able to grind as fast as an affliction warlock can you perhaps admit that that the battle is won and not whine about such incredibly petty issues?
You did see the healing -> SD going into 2.3 right?

That is put in there specifically to address healer's grinding issues. This would be Blizzards way of addressing it...

Actually an affliction lock will kill more mobs with less downtime than a prot pally, because the prot pally doesn't have any form of scaling manaregen either...

Last edited by Cavalier : 11/13/07 at 6:02 AM.
#749SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Do paladins run out of mana on raids with JoW and spamming mana potion every cooldown? I was under the impression that the problem was outside of raids lacking exogenous mana-sources.
#750SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cavalier
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Do paladins run out of mana on raids with JoW and spamming mana potion every cooldown? I was under the impression that the problem was outside of raids lacking exogenous mana-sources.
Using max rank skills? yes

using CS with r1 SoC and no judgement? normally no

edited for clarification:

With CS at a 6s timer thats ~40 mps.
Consecration is 82.5 mps.
R6 JoC with bene+SJ is ~30mps.

152.5 mps or 762.5 Mp5

JoW with a 2h proc's ~11.2mps or 56 mp5 (forgot to calculate in SoC + CS in the original)
pots are good for ~25mps or 100 mp5

yeah we go OOM much faster than pots+JoW can handle.

Last edited by Cavalier : 11/13/07 at 6:35 AM.
#751SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Using max rank skills? yes

using CS with r1 SoC and no judgement? normally no
Yes, if you use max rank consacration on single targets that's a given. That's like mages spamming arcane blast nonstop.
#752SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
A paladin in full tier5 probably grinds at least 2x as fast as a raid spec'd healer of any class even in full t6 gear. Grinding in wow is incredibly easy, complaining about that really makes you look petty.
Welcome to patch 2.3, where it is actually more efficient to grind as a healer than a ret pally (and yes, I have tried it on the PTR). 2.3 is live, you have your free 800 spell damage, so time to stop whining about how unfair it is for healers.

Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Do paladins run out of mana on raids with JoW and spamming mana potion every cooldown? I was under the impression that the problem was outside of raids lacking exogenous mana-sources.
Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:
Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5
Our consumption is as follows:
Using max rank SoC and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-761 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -463 Mp5
Naturally this would lead to "lets downrank to save mana". If you brought everything to the lowest possible rank your consumption and regen would look like this.
Downranking SoC and Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC I + Judgement (8 seconds): 151 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-366 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -68 Mp5
The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.
Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5
If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) and downrank SoC you will regen mana, but at a huge cost to DPS.
Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC I (30 seconds): 55 mana
-206 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +94 Mp5
Make of it as you will. These of course are very very rough estimates that don't take into account all sorts of extra variables (Spiritual Atunement comes to mind first) but they give you a rough idea of what our regen looks like.
#753SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5
TBH you shouldn't spam consecration unless you're regenning huge amounts of mana from SA. I find it silly that people complain they go quickly oom from spamming their most inefficient spell. With this rotation the average retri paladin with 7000 mana will last approximately 730 seconds (12 minutes) before going oom and I find that totally acceptable.
#754SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
What exactly makes us use R1 spells as main source of damage? This isnt using Consecration at all. Only CS + SoC + JoC.


Last edited by Cromfel : 11/13/07 at 8:01 AM.
#755SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
TBH you shouldn't spam consecration unless you're regenning huge amounts of mana from SA. I find it silly that people complain they go quickly oom from spamming their most inefficient spell. With this rotation the average retri paladin with 7000 mana will last approximately 730 seconds (12 minutes) before going oom and I find that totally acceptable.
Of course this is true. The thing to remember about Consecration though is that it is one of your largest DPS spells as well. With no spell damage on a Crusader Judged mob (with Sanctity Aura) Consecration VI is 98 damage per second. Consecration I is 35 DPS. That is a lot of extra DPS. I don't think you can say "never use Consecration", because it is a really good spell. The key is finding your sweet spot where you can maximize your DPS but not run OOM until the second the boss drops.

The golden rule of DPS stands. If you have mana left over after a boss dies you weren't pushing hard enough. If you're OOM before a boss goes down you're not being conservative enough.
#756SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
yeah we go OOM much faster than pots+JoW can handle.
So does every other mana based class! The raid-based mana regen (BoW, SPs, totems, mana pots...) are a very significant part of the mana of ALL mana using classes. Unbuffed they will ALL run oom pretty damn fast (compared to average bossfight length of ~10min) even not going all out.

All those mana regen comparisons really don't mean much. What really means something is at the end if you'll test your mobs/hour as a ret paladin and then as another class, you'll probably be getting the ret palladin having way less mobs/hour. Until your test shows otherwise all these arguments about PARTS of the grinding ability are meaningless, as you need to add up all the parts to really see the speed difference, not just say the mana regen is bad and thus the grinding is bad, or anythign ilke that.

Bringing JoW/SoW into use, as shown above, is completely pointless, since you're better off DRINKING than using it (I could guess that result due from plain experience, that's how big the difference is).
#757SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
All those mana regen comparisons really don't mean much. What really means something is at the end if you'll test your mobs/hour as a ret paladin and then as another class, you'll probably be getting the ret palladin having way less mobs/hour. Until your test shows otherwise all these arguments about PARTS of the grinding ability are meaningless, as you need to add up all the parts to really see the speed difference, not just say the mana regen is bad and thus the grinding is bad, or anythign ilke that.

Bringing JoW/SoW into use, as shown above, is completely pointless, since you're better off DRINKING than using it (I could guess that result due from plain experience, that's how big the difference is).
I have done that testing many times with multiple classes. Feral druid, Shadowpriest, Warlock, Retribution paladin and shockadin. Why does not my results qualify for you? Mobs per hour with Retribution is significantly lower than other classes. Thats one of the very base arguments behind this conversation, and that was countered by "L2P" what seemed to be issue on the accusing player instead of me.

A: Our grinding is extremely inefficient compared to other classes B: We dont have any manaregen abilities or ways to get closer to other classes. Just see flyingtoastr example for reference, it is absolutely stupid to judge JoW on monsters. it is abou 10-20 seconds that it takes for you to kill monster, where you would need 30sec or more to even gain the mana back that you have wasted on the judgement of wisdom.

Reason behind the conclusion:
#1: Testing multiple classes ingame with equal gear level and evaluating their performance
#2: Calculating theoretical possibilities of performing better
#3: Double checking the theory ingame to verify results

Conclusion: We need some kind of manaregen tool similiar to Shamanistic Rage, or just little increase in base mana regeneration.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/13/07 at 8:48 AM.
#758SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Grinding is absolutely not something the game is balanced around, much like 1 vs 1 PvP.

Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?
#759SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Grinding is absolutely not something the game is balanced around, much like 1 vs 1 PvP.

Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?
Who are you to decide what we can talk about our class performance? Are you moderator here, if our conversation was something that is not suitable for these boards, I suppose you can delete the posts. Incase you are moderator here.

Grinding is absolutely something the game is balanced around, much like 5 vs 5 PvP.

See what I did there?
#760SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?
This kind of crap belongs on the Blizzard forums. Keep it out of our topic.
#761SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
This kind of crap belongs on the Blizzard forums. Keep it out of our topic.
It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.

Every class runs out of mana quickly if they use max dps rotations on raids, this is normal and balanced. A lot of classes are completely hamstrung in PvP if they are drained or once they run out of mana. and I don't see Blizzard changing it anytime soon.

If someone wants to suggest that there should be an effort to balance the grinding ability of different classes, the first step would be to massively nerf affliction warlocks and protection paladins, since they are by far the biggest outliers - but since Blizzard is completely not interested, as long as grinding remains trivial for every class, they won't make any changes that only affect that facet of gameplay.
#762SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.

Every class runs out of mana quickly if they use max dps rotations on raids, this is normal and balanced. A lot of classes are completely hamstrung in PvP if they are drained or once they run out of mana. and I don't see Blizzard changing it anytime soon.

If someone wants to suggest that there should be an effort to balance the grinding ability of different classes, the first step would be to massively nerf affliction warlocks and protection paladins, since they are by far the biggest outliers - but since Blizzard is completely not interested, as long as grinding remains trivial for every class, they won't make any changes that only affect that facet of gameplay.
It is extremely easy to narrow the cap between classes if you actually bothered to think about possible solutions instead of just post this crap. You dont have point, anywhere in your post. Only your own assumptions how this game should be designed and how you think its designed. Class grinding longevity has nothing to do with general pvp balance. You are trying to say that we shouldnt get fixed because ability X is not balanced over Y. Those 2 things have zero relation. Who have said we are trying to create perfect balance anyway? We are only saying that our class performance is crippled, and we are saying that it needs some kind of fix. All mana based classes have ways of improving their longevity, while Paladin has zero ways.

Why dont you actually start to think about what you are saying, or just leave in peace? If you dont have anything to contribute than just WoW official forum style generalizations and completely irrelevant comparisons, you shouldnt post at all.

Edit: Nevermind, you already received infraction for it so I think you should take the hint.
#763SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Meuble
Hey everyone. Rough couple of weeks, couldn't get any test done, I will *hopefully* get 3 or 4 wws links for a ret pal with savagery by the night. Hopefully.

About the argument going on: I couldn't care less about grinding! I've been holy for way too long, everytime I spec ret I feel like golds, rep and items really fall in my hand by themselves. Might the whole "woo hoo, I do crazy crits" syndrom talking tho. Anyway, I've gout trouble considering this an issue. Holy pals will probably farm better at 2.3 but, well... good for them.

Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?


edit: Wouldn't be a first "very odd" thing we would have to deal with however >< next blizzcon "ret dependance on SD will be lessened as soon as wotlk hits". Hurray!

Last edited by Meuble : 11/13/07 at 9:31 AM.
#764SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?
It would be very odd if they didnt add any conversion talent. From raw numbers we lost almost 50% of stats in the process, 154 spelldamage and 252 armor penetration is equal to 156 strength, and we received 82 str. So we got reduction in damage and reduction in combat durability due loss in +healing. Thats how WoW itemization works with split stats. But that doesnt justify any reason for nerfing the set just for the sake of doing so. At least I can not currently see the reasoning for this change, as we gained nothing in the process.

It gives even more edge for Blood Elf paladins, since their SoB doesnt gain anything from Spell damage. But yet again I dont see how faction restricted seal should be objective for tailoring our class gear. Hence leaving Alliance paladins pretty much with empty hands. Thats what I have to say about the itemization change. If anyone has some obvious point I have missed, I am more than willing to hear it.

Blizzard developers mentioned that they are trying to lessen our reliance in multiple stats. But currently I dont see any reduction in reliance, only seeing removal of stats that try to fulfil the spell damage dependancy. Tier sets also try to fulfil that dependancy, but for example ring/neck/back slots and trinket slots do not give us that option to follow our class design.
#765SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.
Its not just grinding. I have shown you twice now with pure mathematics that our mana regen whether soloing or raiding is bad to nonexistent. Look at all those restoring abilities that I listed for our regen capabilities. All of those are outside buffs. We have no Shadowfiend, no Dark Pact, no Shamanistic Rage. We don't even have any Meditation or Dreamstate talents. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Let me say that one more time for emphasis. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Is it so much to ask that Paladin's get some sort of regen tool so we aren't forced to completely cut out spells from our DPS cycle to prevent going OOM?

The reason this discussion has been focusing on grinding is because all of our problems are magnified there. Since all our regen is coming from outside buffs, we actually have pretty much nothing to keep us from going OOM very quickly in a soloing situation.

Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?
I'm remaining hopeful that 2.4 will bring additional changes. 2.3 was a huge patch to begin with, and from what they've done the developers are trying to meet the issues for us at the very least. I consider 2.3 a major success regardless of the lack of AP > SD, our two major issues were handled cleanly and efficiently (CS cooldown and Threat Reduction). I like to think optimistically anyway.
#766SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
If I may derail this section of the thread slightly... I was looking at replacing my [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] with a [Shapeshifter's Signet] (both with +12 spell damage), because - with my racial - it would round down to having 10 total Expertise points.

I'm already hit-capped with the gear I have, and we raid with a druid that has Improved Faerie Fire... I'll have about 37% crit raid buffed, and something like 2300 AP. Has anyone yet calculated in the estimated DPS increase from having fewer attacks dodged? I noticed v23 of the spreadsheet (that I can't load all the way, anyhow) has nothing in the WE column from our racial, and putting 5 in just gives me about a 12 DPS boost - and it also doesn't have that ring yet.
#767SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Cromfel my post was *supposed* to support your testing as opposed to the people showing just parts of what affects grinding, sorry if it didn't come out in the way I posted it.

My point is that as actual experience here shows paladins grind slow, and just testing mana regen abilities, same as just testing DPS values, is not enough to show how fast a class is grinding, which is what many other people here were bringing up as both claims to why "paladins grind fine" and "paladins grind slow", while those claims were really not making any point as they only take less than 1/2 of what grinding is about.

At least 15% move speed increase up from 8% would be a rather noticeable, although small, increase in grinding speed. Of course if you don't have anyone in the raid with imp BoM (or the imp BoM guy is also doing imp BoW or kings on guys that need BoM as well), picking up PoJ isn't too viable. If you don't have to spec imp BoM, though, you can easily pick it up too. Then again you want imp BoM for a soloing spec, yet I still think 2/5 BoM 3/3 PoJ should grind faster than 5/5 BoM and a 8% speed increase enchant on boots.
#768SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Cromfel my post was *supposed* to support your testing as opposed to the people showing just parts of what affects grinding, sorry if it didn't come out in the way I posted it.
Sorry, I simply misunderstood your intentions. I appology

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
My point is that as actual experience here shows paladins grind slow, and just testing mana regen abilities, same as just testing DPS values, is not enough to show how fast a class is grinding, which is what many other people here were bringing up as both claims to why "paladins grind fine" and "paladins grind slow", while those claims were really not making any point as they only take less than 1/2 of what grinding is about.

At least 15% move speed increase up from 8% would be a rather noticeable, although small, increase in grinding speed. Of course if you don't have anyone in the raid with imp BoM (or the imp BoM guy is also doing imp BoW or kings on guys that need BoM as well), picking up PoJ isn't too viable. If you don't have to spec imp BoM, though, you can easily pick it up too. Then again you want imp BoM for a soloing spec, yet I still think 2/5 BoM 3/3 PoJ should grind faster than 5/5 BoM and a 8% speed increase enchant on boots.

I think Malan (Or some other Shaman) Had pretty well explained information about speed enchants and their effects in DPS. It must have been in the Shaman megathread.
#769SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Calculating the effect on DPS should be really really easy... If you spend 10% of your time moving to a target, 8% speed increase would result in 0.8% DPS increase. Of course you this would have slight effects on your actual 10% of time spent moving, but it'll change the 0.8% by an insignificant number ("second order" correction).
#770SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Friski
Great thread, with a lot of useful information. I was curious to see if it would be possible to get [Furious Gizmatic Goggles] added into the spreadsheet? Basically because that is all I have/had available to me up to this point and I would like to see what upgrades would benefit me the most before aquiring them and finding out differently. Also if it would be possible to add that ring mentioned a few posts up, the Shapeshifters signet now that it has weapon expertise.
#771SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
"What do you consider to be a reasonable grind rate for a Ret paladin?"

Thats the question what you need to answer. Im still not entitled to do your homework. I have done mine. Ingame testing multiple classes, theory behind our own manaconsumption and double checking them ingame to verify results.
Oh, I'm happy with my grind rate. I've also done my homework to be reasonably efficient with it, given the constraints of my class.

Can it be improved? Sure. Does it need improving? I don't think so.


You say it needs improving. *You* need to do *one* more step beyond simply observing, "this other class can grind faster". Every class has something they can do better than other classes, so handing out buffs based on comparison alone would yield homogenized classes.

What is "enough"? Do Ret paladins need a 100% grinding speed buff? 200%?


Where do you show this conclusion and whats the base of this assumption? Is it safe to say just you just draw that conclusion out of air, since you dont have any 1st hand experience?
The entire math post that you're replying to?

Perhaps I need to use more bolds and italics just for you to read my damn math.


Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Your "Mana Efficient" Grinding rotations:

Using SoC 1x + 1x CS + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 1038 - 430) / (281) ~= 14 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 236 + 130 + 270 = 916 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 100.8 mana from BoW, 427 mana from SoW (assume 12 PPM, includes CS average proc rate), 117.6 mana from spirit (6 seconds) = 785.4
Your Net Mana Use: -149.4 (Net mana gain!)
Real Net Mana Use: 130.6


Using SoC 1x + 1x JoC + SoW + white:
Kill time: (5.5k - 430) / (281) ~= 18 seconds;
Mana Use: 280 + 130 + 270 = 680 mana
Mana Regen: 140 mana from SJ, 129.6 mana from BoW, 436 mana from SoW, 157 mana from spirit (8 seconds) = 862.6
Your Net Mana Use: -462.6 mana
Real Net Mana Use: -182.6 mana
Awww, it's cute what you did here.


Do you understand that the point of the grind rotation is to chain them together?


You fight one mob, you judge, you re-seal. When the mob dies, you still have 20 seconds left on your seal, and you fight your next mob. Judge, re-seal. Rinse, repeat.

Un-necessary sealing wastes mana and increases downtime (eventually).


The point of my math isn't to prove that Paladins absolutely don't need mana regen buffs. My point is that they *do* have (grinding) mana regen. You haven't done any of this *simple* homework, how do you expect Blizzard to give you buffs?

Dev A: "They want mana regen buffs"
Dev B: "How are their existing mana regen abilities deficient?"
Dev A: "Dunno, they want buffs cause Shadow Priests and warlocks can grind better"
Dev B: " ... "



You are grinding 100 monsters in average of 1600 seconds, while using your zero managain/manaloss rotations that would keep your grinding infinetely up mana wice. But you still have to heal from time to time. Lets say you spend 1 HL every 2 monsters (about 2800 healed monsters dealing 87 dps to you) thats 131 mana consumed for healing. Meaning you would still need to drink 4 times giving you extra downtime of 105 seconds.
I think I've adequately explained how your addition to my rotations are invalid.

For this next calculation, I will use my original math, assuming a 5.7k mana pool.

Combo 1:
10.7 seconds, -427 mana per mob -> 13.3 mobs or 143 seconds of grinding till OOM.
Drink for 25 seconds

Cycle Time: 168 seconds
Kill rate: 13.3 mobs per 168 seconds

vs.

Weaving Combo 2 + 3
26 seconds per 2 mobs, or 13 seconds per mob; net mana gain from this cycle

Cycle time: Indefinite

Kill rate: 11 mobs per 143 seconds
Kill rate: 12.9 mobs per 168 seconds



There does seem to be a kill rate penalty using the weaving combo, but you're also gaining mana overall and do not have to sit and drink.

If you'd like to seize this as an "AHA!" point, you can say my math proves that using max ability spam + drinking yields a 3% increase in mob kill rate compared to using SoW/JoW weaving.


We're still ignoring travel time, which I'd rather not bother with, since that's highly variable. And I think this thread has had enough of "grinding theorycraft". I made my point, take it as you will.



You "think" that the math still shows how SoW/JoW can be weaved into a rotation for better sustained grinding, since when these forums are used to throw these wild assumptions as facts, even when the reality is different? If you dont know how it works, dont post. Calculate how things work and then post if you are sure about your results. Grinding is field test what has large margin of error. If you WWS logged your grinding periods, evaluated the results from your grinding periods. Calculated them and then double checked the theory by another testing period, then you should post your results. Just like I did. You havent done anything but "You think", that grinding experiment where your ingame results only give you rotation that allows you to grind infinitely without drinking, are "developed techniques". Thats only finding lazy way, thats not finding efficient way.
I did this math first, and then I used it when grinding.


Feel free to denigrate how this is "just theorycraft". You countered my posts with "just theorycraft". The point is that the math shows us possibilities. In particular, I kept this math simplified for your sake, since you seemed to have never seriously considered the possibilities of using SoW + JoW while grinding.


Have a nice day.
I will, you too.
#772SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Habaka
After playing a rogue to 70, Warrior to 70 and done some grinding with them and seeing how my brother plays his mage...

I agree with Cromfel also.

Ret paladins have... atleast by just observing, lowest damage, goes fastest to a state where he needs to drink / eat and ofcourse since they do it fastest, also most frequently.

Edit: Oh and I dont really see JoW and SoW as a fix, since atleast for my state of mind, that takes waaaay too much damage off, so that killing mobs becomes very very tedious...

I'd rather buy water and food from a vendor and eat / drink every now and then.

Last edited by Habaka : 11/13/07 at 1:11 PM.
#773SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
On the note of Weapon Expertise, I've seen a lot of conflicting reports on boss dodge and parry chances. Some people have set them as low as 5%, and I've seen some estimates as high as 12%. Does anyone know how much expertise we would need to be capped? Obviously any amount of it will be a DPS gain, but where is the point where you can push parry and dodges off the table?

And a quick question for those long time Ret Vets. My first raid as ret is going to be TK to get a few new recruits atuned. On the Kael fight is picking up a Devestation worth it or should I stick with my Skillherald? Also, during the gravity lapses in phase 5 should I bother throwing heals or just worry about keeping alive?
#774SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Dodge is usually low and normal, 5.6%-6% or so from bosses.

Parry is often high, ~14% or so from many bosses.

Don't attack from the front!
#775SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kyne
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
And a quick question for those long time Ret Vets. My first raid as ret is going to be TK to get a few new recruits atuned. On the Kael fight is picking up a Devestation worth it or should I stick with my Skillherald? Also, during the gravity lapses in phase 5 should I bother throwing heals or just worry about keeping alive?
Devastation is worth it, but you're going to have to pace yourself and keep a wary eye on the threat meter since you will be seeing some unusually large numbers. In my experience on Phase 5 when I was Retribution, I would find a good spot for myself and toss heals on targets who required more immediate attention (use your judgment here).
#776SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0myth123
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Its not just grinding. I have shown you twice now with pure mathematics that our mana regen whether soloing or raiding is bad to nonexistent. Look at all those restoring abilities that I listed for our regen capabilities. All of those are outside buffs. We have no Shadowfiend, no Dark Pact, no Shamanistic Rage. We don't even have any Meditation or Dreamstate talents. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Let me say that one more time for emphasis. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Is it so much to ask that Paladin's get some sort of regen tool so we aren't forced to completely cut out spells from our DPS cycle to prevent going OOM?
PvE aside, the complete lack of mana regen in a PvP environment is one of the greatest reasons (perhaps THE) retribution paladins are highly undesirable in arenas right now.

That and crusader strike is really just a glorified auto attack (actually weaker than auto attack with zero spell dmg on our gear)
#777SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
After playing a rogue to 70, Warrior to 70 and done some grinding with them and seeing how my brother plays his mage...

I agree with Cromfel also.

Ret paladins have... atleast by just observing, lowest damage, goes fastest to a state where he needs to drink / eat and ofcourse since they do it fastest, also most frequently.

Edit: Oh and I dont really see JoW and SoW as a fix, since atleast for my state of mind, that takes waaaa ytoo much damage off, so that killing mobs becomes very very tedious...

I'd rather buy water and food from a vendor and eat / drink every now and then.
Ill be damned, everyone agrees with me except 1 individual who says he dont have experience to back up hes observations. Fascinating, everyone so far who have said they have experience came to same conclusion. Could this indicate that we actually could use some tuning on the manaregen front?

Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
PvE aside, the complete lack of mana regen in a PvP environment is one of the greatest reasons (perhaps THE) retribution paladins are highly undesirable in arenas right now.

That and crusader strike is really just a glorified auto attack (actually weaker than auto attack with zero spell dmg on our gear)
And another one? This have to be madness?

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/13/07 at 1:36 PM.
#778SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
I would rather not reply to this thread any further until I have the data, but I'd like to gather some empirical data on killing speed of mobs for different specs/classes.

I'll see if I can get some guildmates to help, does anyone have any suggestions for what mobs would be a good benchmark to measure grinding speed? A measure of mobs/10 minutes seems like a good indication, but controlling the parameters would be a nightmare if we pick a crowded spot. There is also the problem that player skill would be an absolute nightmare to normalize, a great player might try to grind multiple mobs at once while someone instead might limit himself to single pulling mobs that are far awa yfrom each other.

My experience so far is that even with a decent spell damage suit, raid healing spec'd and prot tanks are by far the slowest classes at grinding, and all DPS classes are able to grind at very high speeds, with a few classes being absolutely exceptional (protection paladins and affliction warlocks).

I freely conceed that ret paladins might be at the bottom of the ladder as far as grinding speed of DPS classes, but they are probably well ahead of restoration shamans, holy priests, holy paladins, and protection warriors, even considering the upcoming healing -> spell damage conversion. A guildmate who absolutely hates ret spec'd ret once on a bet and commented that the only thing the spec was good for was grinding mobs.
#779SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
I freely conceed that ret paladins might be at the bottom of the ladder as far as grinding speed of DPS classes, but they are probably well ahead of restoration shamans, holy priests, holy paladins, and protection warriors, even considering the upcoming healing -> spell damage conversion. A guildmate who absolutely hates ret spec'd ret once on a bet and commented that the only thing the spec was good for was grinding mobs.
Are you going to perform the test with Retribution verus healing specced or Retribution versus classic grinding specs?

Good mobs to chain grinding are for example Skettis surgers or SMV elementals if you pick your timing correctly.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/13/07 at 2:20 PM.
#780SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Welcome to patch 2.3, where it is actually more efficient to grind as a healer than a ret pally (and yes, I have tried it on the PTR). 2.3 is live, you have your free 800 spell damage, so time to stop whining about how unfair it is for healers.



Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:
Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5
Our consumption is as follows:
Using max rank SoC and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-761 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -463 Mp5
Naturally this would lead to "lets downrank to save mana". If you brought everything to the lowest possible rank your consumption and regen would look like this.
Downranking SoC and Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC I + Judgement (8 seconds): 151 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-366 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -68 Mp5
The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.
Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5
If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) and downrank SoC you will regen mana, but at a huge cost to DPS.
Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC I (30 seconds): 55 mana
-206 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +94 Mp5
Make of it as you will. These of course are very very rough estimates that don't take into account all sorts of extra variables (Spiritual Atunement comes to mind first) but they give you a rough idea of what our regen looks like.
For those BE pally, SoB comes to:
Using max rank SoB and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-714 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -414 Mp5
Downranking Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-376 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -76 Mp5
Note: BE get slightly less benefit here due to no lower rank of SoB

The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.
Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
-301 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -1 Mp5
If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) you will regen mana, but at a significant cost to DPS.
Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoB I (30 seconds): 210 mana
-231 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +69 Mp5

Personally, I usually run w/o Consecration, as I didn't get BoW in raids (Salv is too important). With build in -threat, I may get BoW and add it back in.
#781SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0orkyben
Hey there, first post here.

Thanks for all the work your guys are putting in, and especially thanks for the spreadsheets - I've spent hours trawling over them already!

Just wanted to double check about "Weapon Expertsie" though; it seems remarkably powerful on Bellator's spreadsheet, so much so that the [Brooch of Deftness] appears to be one of the best DPS neck's avaliable in the game, despite having no Str/AP and no Crit whatsoever. Is this correct? If so, I know where 35 of my badges are going tomorrow!

Thanks again guys.
#782SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
LockApologist
Originally Posted by Friski View Post
Great thread, with a lot of useful information. I was curious to see if it would be possible to get [Furious Gizmatic Goggles] added into the spreadsheet? Basically because that is all I have/had available to me up to this point and I would like to see what upgrades would benefit me the most before aquiring them and finding out differently. Also if it would be possible to add that ring mentioned a few posts up, the Shapeshifters signet now that it has weapon expertise.
I asked this as well, and found that you can add your own items (although I've had mixed luck with that. seems my adding the badge stuff broke the weapon and belt selections, to the point where changing the value doesn't change the stats displayed. Then again, I also messed with the DPS displays to show for SoB, as I don't care about SoC).

To add new items:

Format -> Sheet -> Unhide

Unhide the 'DPS' sheet and add your items in.

Last edited by LockApologist : 11/13/07 at 3:03 PM.
#783SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Friski
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
I asked this as well, and found that you can add your own items (although I've had mixed luck with that. seems my adding the badge stuff broke the weapon and belt selections, to the point where changing the value doesn't change the stats displayed. Then again, I also messed with the DPS displays to show for SoB, as I don't care about SoC).

To add new items:

Format -> Sheet -> Unhide

Unhide the 'DPS' sheet and add your items in.
I tried playing with this some, and failed. I'll keep plugging away though, maybe soon my old excel skills from the past will magically come back to my remembrance. Thanks!
#784SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
koetjeka
Hello guys,

2.3 is on the doorstep and one of the paladins in my guild is speccing retri. There is only 1 problem: his class leader doesn't allow him to sign up for raids. Not enough dps he says.

I of course want a retri pala in raid for the sake of judgement of wisdom so I want to convince the CL to get a retri pala each raid. I'm not a great paladin-theorycrafter so could anyone make me a list why we should get a retri pala instead of a dps warrior for instance?

Things I came up by myself:

-Judgement of wisdom owns for casters;
-Paladins get -30% threat, warriors only 10% in berserker stance.


I hope you can help me out.

thanks in advance!

Last edited by koetjeka : 11/13/07 at 3:57 PM.
#785SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Celthis
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Just wanted to double check about "Weapon Expertsie" though; it seems remarkably powerful on Bellator's spreadsheet, so much so that the [Brooch of Deftness] appears to be one of the best DPS neck's avaliable in the game, despite having no Str/AP and no Crit whatsoever. Is this correct? If so, I know where 35 of my badges are going tomorrow!
I didn't have much time to look at the spreadsheet (at work at the moment), but when I replaced the [Pendant of the Perilous] from the default gear set with [Brooch of Deftness], the listed DPS went from (1347+30) to (1336+32), a loss of 9 dps overall.
#786SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Celthis
Originally Posted by koetjeka View Post
I'm not a great paladin-theorycrafter so could anyone make me a list why we should get a retri pala instead of a dps warrior for instance?

Things I came up by myself:

-Judgement of wisdom owns for casters;
-Paladins get -30% threat, warriors only 10% in berserker stance.
Warriors get -20% threat in berserker stance. Fury warriors with Improved Berserker Stance get the same -30% threat that ret paladins do.

Last edited by Celthis : 11/13/07 at 4:00 PM. Reason: i am terrible with quotes
#787SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rokford
Do most ret paladins attempting to maximize raid DPS use weightstones / sharpening stones? I realise there is a conflict with windfury, but will this weapon buff actually prevent windfury from sticking if/when it is available?
#788SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Celthis
Originally Posted by Rokford View Post
Do most ret paladins attempting to maximize raid DPS use weightstones / sharpening stones? I realise there is a conflict with windfury, but will this weapon buff actually prevent windfury from sticking if/when it is available?
Yes. If you already have a temporary weapon buff, windfury will not apply. You will have to click it off and wait for the totem to pulse again.

Last edited by Celthis : 11/13/07 at 4:10 PM.
#789SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by Rokford View Post
Do most ret paladins attempting to maximize raid DPS use weightstones / sharpening stones? I realise there is a conflict with windfury, but will this weapon buff actually prevent windfury from sticking if/when it is available?
The temporary weapon enchants do prevent totem-based weapon buffs from applying themselves. That's why you'll hear Shaman tell Rogues not to use Poisons on their main hand weapons, because they'll lose the benefit of WF.

That said, the weapon buff stones are a nice buff if you don't have access to a group with a Shaman for some reason, but be careful because you can't cancel the buffs until their duration runs out.
#790SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
That said, the weapon buff stones are a nice buff if you don't have access to a group with a Shaman for some reason, but be careful because you can't cancel the buffs until their duration runs out.
Thats actually fixed (I have no idea when). You can now cancel the weapon buffs from your buff bar.
#791SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Thats actually fixed (I have no idea when). You can now cancel the weapon buffs from your buff bar.
I swear I tried to do it last night on some Brilliant Wizard Oil on my Shaman, and it did not work. I guess I'll have to give it another shot today.
#792SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0orkyben
Originally Posted by Celthis View Post
I didn't have much time to look at the spreadsheet (at work at the moment), but when I replaced the [Pendant of the Perilous] from the default gear set with [Brooch of Deftness], the listed DPS went from (1347+30) to (1336+32), a loss of 9 dps overall.
Haha.

Ok so apparently my first post was a little retaded! >.<

Evidently the difference I experienced was due to being hit capped or not, as the [Brooch of Deftness] as a hefty chunk of hit rating on it, and I must have been below 9% hit before I equipepd it.

With that taken into account the brooch is fairly useless then?
#793SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sapp
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
I swear I tried to do it last night on some Brilliant Wizard Oil on my Shaman, and it did not work. I guess I'll have to give it another shot today.
If you use a buff frame you might not be able to, I never can with CT-BuffMod. It only works with the ugly basic blizzard UI, in my experience.

Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Even with a buff frame, if it's possible to cancel the weapon buff you should be able to use a /cancelaura command to get rid of it.
Good call. I need to make a macro for that.

Last edited by Sapp : 11/13/07 at 4:37 PM.
#794SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rasputin
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
If you use a buff frame you might not be able to, I never can with CT-BuffMod. It only works with the ugly basic blizzard UI, in my experience.
Even with a buff frame, if it's possible to cancel the weapon buff you should be able to use a /cancelaura command to get rid of it.
#795SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Originally Posted by koetjeka View Post
2.3 is on the doorstep and one of the paladins in my guild is speccing retri. There is only 1 problem: his class leader doesn't allow him to sign up for raids. Not enough dps he says.
He should actually test that in a raid, post 2.3, before saying so with certainty.

It looks like you're firmly in the middle of t5 content judging by your realm forum progression post. That's a good spot to properly test Ret for your guild; a PvP+kara geared ret paladin is functionally competing on the same line as most t5 DPS would be.

What other "off specs" is your guild receptive to? Do you have a mix of holy and shadow priests? What do your druids do? Shamans? Do you use any DPS warriors, and how many DPS warriors compared to how many rogues? Any MS blood frenzy warriors?

Any Pallytanks?

The danger comes if you're trying to get a ret to jump straight into t6 content. They really need t6 gear to compete at t6 content, maybe with a sprinkling of the upcoming season 3 pvp gear.
#796SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cavalier
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:
Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5

I should point out that JoW will never hit 100mp5 with any decent 2h, simply due to the procrate vs slow weapon.

In practice it'll be closer to 60-70mp5 depending on luck.
#797SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
I should point out that JoW will never hit 100mp5 with any decent 2h, simply due to the procrate vs slow weapon.

In practice it'll be closer to 60-70mp5 depending on luck.
You forget that JoW procs off all our attacks, including SoC, CS, and Consecration. Trust me, I did the math.
#798SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
I should point out that JoW will never hit 100mp5 with any decent 2h, simply due to the procrate vs slow weapon.

In practice it'll be closer to 60-70mp5 depending on luck.
JoW 50% proc rate
3.8 speed weapon (47.4 mp5)
6sec CS cooldown (30.8 mp5)
7 ppm SoC (21.5 mp5)
Judgement every 8sec (23.1 mps5)

Thats total of 122.8?
#799SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cavalier
I was under the impression it had a 40% proc rate, not sure where I got that number but i'll look it up.

Are you sure that Consecration procs it? if so it should theoretically pay for itself and then some on a JoW mob. Which I know in practice hasn't worked for me.


edit: just tested, yeah the first tick can in fact proc it which is another thing I had forgotten.
#800SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
I was under the impression it had a 40% proc rate, not sure where I got that number but i'll look it up.

Are you sure that Consecration procs it? if so it should theoretically pay for itself and then some on a JoW mob. Which I know in practice hasn't worked for me.


edit: just tested, yeah the first tick can in fact proc it which is another thing I had forgotten.
Both JoW and JoL are 50% proc rates. They can both only proc off the first tic of a DoT (such as Consecration).
#801SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Iod
Originally Posted by koetjeka View Post
Hello guys,

2.3 is on the doorstep and one of the paladins in my guild is speccing retri. There is only 1 problem: his class leader doesn't allow him to sign up for raids. Not enough dps he says.

I of course want a retri pala in raid for the sake of judgement of wisdom so I want to convince the CL to get a retri pala each raid. I'm not a great paladin-theorycrafter so could anyone make me a list why we should get a retri pala instead of a dps warrior for instance?
Sadly I don't have the WWS up yet, but in a Windfury group our Ret Pally hit #5 on Gruul last night (in partial greens, no less). If your Ret pally is appropriately geared and Windfury is available, a Ret Pally certainly would be a viable addition.

In addition, Improved Sanctity Aura (2% Group Damage Bonus) and the talented Seal of the Crusader (additional Crit) should at least provide some compelling utility. Crusader might gimp the Paladin's personal dps, but might at least convince a Raid Leader that he'd be worth taking.

Sorry for the lack of hard numbers at the moment, hopefully I can get you an example log this evening.
#802SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0tarja
Last night in the first night of raiding since the 2.3 patch, I could've sworn that I was proccing JoW far more than normal. My combat log would often have 2 or 3 lines in a row of "You gain 74 mana...". It seemed to me like JoW was proccing off the "immune to vindication" combat result (where vindication procs a TON).

Unfortunately I can't verify it for sure, since it seems like WWS is completely busted or something. I've been trying to load our WWS report for hours now and my position in the queue just keeps getting higher.

Has anyone else noticed this to confirm or deny whether I'm crazy? If this is true, (and if it doesn't get "fixed" by Blizzard), it would be a huge source of mp5. I'll edit this post if I can ever get the WWS report loaded, and figure out whether it's true.
#803SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by tarja View Post
Last night in the first night of raiding since the 2.3 patch, I could've sworn that I was proccing JoW far more than normal. My combat log would often have 2 or 3 lines in a row of "You gain 74 mana...". It seemed to me like JoW was proccing off the "immune to vindication" combat result (where vindication procs a TON).

Unfortunately I can't verify it for sure, since it seems like WWS is completely busted or something. I've been trying to load our WWS report for hours now and my position in the queue just keeps getting higher.

Has anyone else noticed this to confirm or deny whether I'm crazy? If this is true, (and if it doesn't get "fixed" by Blizzard), it would be a huge source of mp5. I'll edit this post if I can ever get the WWS report loaded, and figure out whether it's true.
If that's true, I know where I'm going to put my spare point in, from Imp. Judgement (I accidentally took both points. Habit!)
#804SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
If that's true, I know where I'm going to put my spare point in, from Imp. Judgement (I accidentally took both points. Habit!)
With a 6 second Crusader Strike, is only 1/2 Improved Judgement advantageous for the DPS cycle in lining up cooldowns? I specced to 5/10/46, grabbing Guardian's Favor for some utility in thinking that Vindication does nothing in raids - however, some people are saying that Vindication will proc JoWisdom even if the mob is immune, which means I want at least a point in there. If I move the points from Guardian's Favor and 1 point from Imp. Judgement, that gives me 5/8/48 with everything in ret that I want and Vindication.

Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?
#805SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Iconoclast
armor penetration

So about 12 pages back or so there was some discussion about the value of armor penetration stats on gear...

Was it ever resolved? Did we come up with a determination for it?
How do these values compare for SoC as well ass SoB?
#806SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was determined earlier in the thread, and it's also the default setting in the spreadsheet to have only 1 point in Imp. Judgement. I had 2/2 last night, and noticed myself mashing my Judgement/SoC whenever it came up, and having to wait a few times on the GCD so I could Crusader Strike.
#807SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Agrippina
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
So about 12 pages back or so there was some discussion about the value of armor penetration stats on gear...

Was it ever resolved? Did we come up with a determination for it?
How do these values compare for SoC as well ass SoB?
Hierarchy of ret stats (with kings factored in):

Str->Crit/Agi/Ap-> Armor pen/Haste

It's a solid DPS coefficient, but it isn't quite there. For me, the question is savagery vs. executioner atm. I wonder if anyone has some figures for the worth of those.
#808SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
With a 6 second Crusader Strike, is only 1/2 Improved Judgement advantageous for the DPS cycle in lining up cooldowns? I specced to 5/10/46, grabbing Guardian's Favor for some utility in thinking that Vindication does nothing in raids - however, some people are saying that Vindication will proc JoWisdom even if the mob is immune, which means I want at least a point in there. If I move the points from Guardian's Favor and 1 point from Imp. Judgement, that gives me 5/8/48 with everything in ret that I want and Vindication.

Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?
I'm willing to bet a rather large sum of money that if Vindication is proccing JoW it is a bug that will be fixed soon, much like the JoW proccing off Judgement refreshes bug on the PTRs. Not worth sinking any points into in a pure raiding build unless it is an intended change.

If you look in the first post there is a little diagram that shows DPS cycles with 9 second and 8 second Judgement. The 9 second does come out ahead, but the effect is so marginal I wouldn't really worry about picking up 2 points in it.
#809SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0fingoldin
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Yes, I'm pretty sure that was determined earlier in the thread, and it's also the default setting in the spreadsheet to have only 1 point in Imp. Judgement. I had 2/2 last night, and noticed myself mashing my Judgement/SoC whenever it came up, and having to wait a few times on the GCD so I could Crusader Strike.
I actually found that having 2/2 in there isn't so bad. You can put 1 point into BoM or Deflection, to get to the third tier, but I think just doing 2/2 imp judgment is better overall. The reason being that you can hold off on judgements for an additional second to make sure you weave in your CS at the appropriate time in your cycle, but the shortened cooldown makes it notably easier when you have to switch targets and quickly get a JotC on the new target quickly.

The one thing which I find most annoying and, also, most torn on what I should do, is when you are switching targets fairly often. If your judgment cooldown isn't up, you don't want to waste the mana casting SoB / SoC only to switch to SotC to get off a judgment and then recast your dps seal... wasted seal cast that isn't judged, which if you do that often, adds up (unless you're using rank 1 SoC). But then again, you don't want to just sit there swinging with SotC waiting for your judgment cooldown because that is a pretty decent hit to your sustained dps, and, well, 3% crit buff on things when you need to burn it down fast isn't a bad thing. So, the 2/2 imp judgment helps with that a little bit by making the window that I am sitting there waiting to judge SotC that much smaller so I can get back into my normal damage rotations.

I just found that, yeah, in theory, a 9 second cooldown is better and no reason to put 2 points in it... in practice, it is nice to have 2 points for when you do need to judge quickly to get up those debuffs for the raid.
#810SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Astinus
Talent Spec

Are these the two talent spec's for Retribution now?


With Precision

I couldnt quite figure out where to put the last point saved from Imp. Judgement.


Without Precision

I had 7 points left over. I put 5 in 10% INT and 2 in Pursuit of Justice. I was unsure where to place them.
#811SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0noth
I was feeling rather underwhelmed by the effects of imp BoM, so chose to put the 5 pts into Pursuit of Justice and Guardian's Fervor instead. As for that last point... as the poster above you said, I am finding that having the 2nd point in Imp. Judgement isn't bad, so long as you pay attention to your DPS cycle and prefer CS over judgement when they're both up.
#812SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0hawaiisb
I agree too that imp BoM is underwhelming to spend 5 points on. I would leave this for the holy pallys to get since we usually get the same pally to buff imp BoW and imp BoM.

The spec I went for was:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec gets everything i need really. I just wish I had 1 more point to finish off Sanctified Seals.
#813SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Here's my WWS for last night's raiding. Six bosses in an evening is a new record for our guild. I didn't do as well the night before, thanks to instance servers going down at Solarian at 30%, then before Hydross (whom we logged in to kill past raid time).

Wow Web Stats

A few notes, the [Red Belt of Battle], [Cloak of Darkness], and [Ancestral Ring of Conquest] are all new from post-raid. I am somewhat of a loot sponge, since our melee team has most of the stuff that I want already. Lucky me.
#814SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rasputin
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
I agree too that imp BoM is underwhelming to spend 5 points on. I would leave this for the holy pallys to get since we usually get the same pally to buff imp BoW and imp BoM.

The spec I went for was:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec gets everything i need really. I just wish I had 1 more point to finish off Sanctified Seals.
I'm curious, why would you take 3/3 vindication and 3/3 PoJ over 3/3 Sanctified Seals? It seems to me that in either PvE or PvP, the extra crit and completely undispellable seals would be a better choice than the third point in either of those other talents.

As for Imp BoM, it would certainly be the first thing I'd lose if I wanted to hybridize my build somewhat. But in a pure raiding build, the 44 AP for everyone who hits the mob seems to be the best option(also on the understanding that none of the other paladins have it, as they all prefer to go deeper into holy or prot).
#815SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
As for Imp BoM, it would certainly be the first thing I'd lose if I wanted to hybridize my build somewhat. But in a pure raiding build, the 44 AP for everyone who hits the mob seems to be the best option(also on the understanding that none of the other paladins have it, as they all prefer to go deeper into holy or prot).
Those are exactly the reasons why I have it. Considering all but two of our guild's druids are Feral (one Resto, one Doomkin), and it benefits all our Warriors, our token Rogue, token Enh. Shaman, and myself, that's usually 9-10 people per raid that gain a direct benefit for their damage and aggro generation - however small that may be.

I'm happy with the speed increase on my boots, instead of putting three talent points to achieve basically the same effect. The question is not what would benefit the Paladin more, but the Raid more.
#816SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Just came in to say that I absolutely now love the new speed increase from PoJ. For any heavy movement fight it makes a huge difference to be zipping around at 15% run speed, this also means I can put 12 agi on my boots. So really PoJ is 15% run speed and .50% crit because you can swap that boars speed enchant to agi (if you're one of those people who refuses to play without run speed of some kind).

Now I cant wait to get another piece of +hit gear so I can drop all of these points out of prot. I'm planning to do something like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for a pure PvE DPS ret/support build. Having improved lay on hands is going to be great, if you're one of those healers that recently went ret and you're accustomed to watching tank HP you can save a wipe if you get a fast LoH in there if you have an assist + loh key macro (assists of the mob you're attacking and then lohs). The 30% armor boost is really nice for any fight, you can just wait until 20% pop your loh and then mana pot. You should be able to use it almost every other or every boss fight if you're marching through bt/hyjal.
#817SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Agonar
Is it worth adding the benefit of Judgement Of Wisdom when Wanding? We, in my guild, sometime do that on long fight.

Maybe something in the form of:

0.50(74(60 / S) / 12) = M

S = Wand Speed
M = Mana Regen
#818SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Renaud
Does anyone have any solid information on Healing Done/HPS for Judgement of Light? (Similar to the JoWisdom information availiable in post #1?
#819SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
Is it worth adding the benefit of Judgement Of Wisdom when Wanding? We, in my guild, sometime do that on long fight.

Maybe something in the form of:

0.50(74(60 / S) / 12) = M

S = Wand Speed
M = Mana Regen
Probably a good idea to also include 5 or so of the most used wands amongst casters, starting with the fastest wands.

Does anyone have any solid information on Healing Done/HPS for Judgement of Light? (Similar to the JoWisdom information availiable in post #1?
This was done somewhat in this thread here, altho as it is highly dependent on attack speed (and abilities used), its almost impossible to give an accurate average for anyone. So many variables to add in.. weapon speeds, attack rotations, haste effects, extra attacks...

Last edited by CaptBooyah : 11/15/07 at 1:11 PM.
#820SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Renaud
Blue Diamond Witchwand - Speed 1.5

0.50(74(60 / S) / 12) = M

Where S=Wand Speed and M=Mp5

.5(74(60/1.5)/12)=M
.5(74(40)/12)=M
.5(2960/12)=M
.5(246.66)=M

123.33MP5

EDIT: Yeah, I was just wanting something along the lines of... Rogue1 = SwordSpec - 2.8/1.4speed weapons = ###HPS

I would do these myself, but I do not know any of the special ability uses per minutes etc (due to energy regen)

The more I think about this the more I understand why no one made a listing like this. Thanks for the link though.
#821SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Here's my WWS for last night's raiding. Six bosses in an evening is a new record for our guild. I didn't do as well the night before, thanks to instance servers going down at Solarian at 30%, then before Hydross (whom we logged in to kill past raid time).

Wow Web Stats

A few notes, the [Red Belt of Battle], [Cloak of Darkness], and [Ancestral Ring of Conquest] are all new from post-raid. I am somewhat of a loot sponge, since our melee team has most of the stuff that I want already. Lucky me.
I saw similar results in Kara clear. I was in top 2 (mostly 1) in a melee heavy (4-5 + 2 tank) Kara clear last night. DPS was mostly T4 level with a full merc Arms war (we were in Kara for the badges, not the gear, minus the undergeared spriest. There were about 4 non-sharded loots, 3 of which the spriest got).

Melee grp was rog/rog/prot war/enhc shm/ret then later rog/arms war/enhc shm/ret/MM hunt. So, WF, SoE, UR, BS were all in use. From pre-patch, my average dps went up 100-120 DPS. Max dps up 200. (average was 775-800 range, topped at 1k vs Curator/Illhoof where dmg buffs in effect). The rogue was shadowstep, or he probably would have been top.

In short, I'm loving my Ret. The raid buffs are great, and the changes in 2.3 were a huge help.
#822SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
noth
I saw similar results to Prepared, as well, even coming in #2 on Lurker with just shy of 1k DPS accoring to WWS, and just over it according to Recap. Considering I'd been hard pressed to hit 650 pre-patch, i was pretty pleased. About half-way through the run, they stopped giving me crap, too.

Wow Web Stats

The one thing i saw that kind of surprised me, was that even with 30% reduced threat, and salv, I rode the tanks threat the whole evening. I managed to fail noticing that my salv was down before our first Tidewalker attempt (our MT was having internet problems, kept DCing mid-fight, so we called it a few minutes early, and will be back tonight with a new modem for him), and spent about 2/3 of the attempt with auto-attack off, keeping up with the tanks threat through crusader strike alone. Ouch. :/

As for imp BOM, I have some vain hopes of getting the holy pali to actually spec an imp blessing... ANY imp blessing. *sigh* right now he's got 5/5 toughness and 4/5 Anticipation and please, don't ask me why because I couldn't explain it. At this point, I think I'm getting more benefit out of the added mobility of Pursuit of Justice and Guardians Fervor but I think that the imp BOM route is valid as well.

edit: spelling

Last edited by noth : 11/15/07 at 3:23 PM.
#823SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
Does anyone have any solid information on Healing Done/HPS for Judgement of Light? (Similar to the JoWisdom information availiable in post #1?
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
New JoL numbers based on the 50% proc rate:
Weapon speed:
1.5 seconds = 158.33 Hp5
1.8 seconds = 131.94 Hp5
2.2 Seconds = 107.95 Hp5
2.6 seconds = 91.35 Hp5
3.3 seconds = 71.97 Hp5
3.8 seconds = 62.5 Hp5

Assumed perfect 50% proc rate, perfect 100% hit chance, no haste effects, etc. Duel Wielding should give (theoretically) the sum of the two weapon's effects (e.x. a 1.5 and a 1.8 will give 158.33 + 131.94 = 290.27 Hp5).
Doesn't take into account anything other than regular weapon swings. Light is really too hard to model.
#824SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Agonar
I would do these myself, but I do not know any of the special ability uses per minutes etc (due to energy regen)
"By default the energy bar is full, with 100 points of energy. After energy is spent on an ability, it regenerates fairly quickly (20 energy every 2 seconds) (catform 30 energy every 2 seconds), whether in combat or not."

Quote from a WoWWiki Articles, im not sure if everything there is really accurate but thats all we got(i think).

Heres the link: Energy - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
#825SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
If you want a formula for JoL you would simply have to take the number of attacks you make with your main hand, off hand, and special attacks made within 1 minute. That will give you how many procs per minute you will see. In math it looks something like so:
( 60 / X * .50 ) + ( 60 / Y * .50 ) + ( S * .50 ) = P

X = Main hand speed
Y = Off hand speed
S = Number of special attacks per minute
P = Procs of JoL per minute
Since I can't ignore haste effects for Rogues and Warriors the actual formula becomes a bit more complex.
( ( K / X * .50 ) + ( K / Y * .50 ) ) + * ( H / X2 * .50 ) + ( H / Y2 * .50 ) ) + (S * .50 ) = P iff ( K + H ) = 60

X = Main hand speed (unhasted)
Y = Off hand speed (unhasted)
X2 = Main hand speed (hasted)
Y2 = Off hand speed (hasted)
S = Special attacks per minute
K = Time not hasted (seconds)
H = Time with haste (seconds)
P = Procs per minute
For this formula to work K + H must equal 60. Anything other than that will give you pretty nonsensical results.

If you wanted to find how much Hp5 that is you would simply have to convert the procs into heals and divide.
( P * 95 ) / 12 = Hp5 from JoL
So the final "master formula" for Hp5 JoL is as follows.
( ( ( ( K / X * .50 ) + ( K / Y * .50 ) ) + ( ( H / X2 * .50 ) + ( H / Y2 * .50 ) ) + (S * .50 ) ) * 95 ) / 12 = Hp5 from JoL iff ( K + H ) = 60

X = Main hand speed (unhasted)
Y = Off hand speed (unhasted)
X2 = Main hand speed (hasted)
Y2 = Off hand speed (hasted)
S = Special attacks per minute
K = Time not hasted (seconds)
H = Time with haste (seconds)
Excuse the obscene number of parentheses, I couldn't think of a more elegant way of doing it. This formula is nice because it works whether you have haste or not, and even works for people using 2 handers. Simply put a 0 for the variables that do not apply to you (such as all the off hand variables if you're using a 2 handed weapon). And please, before you try out the formula go look up the order of operations. That being said, if I made an error please correct me.

And now you see why modeling JoL is so hard, there are far too many variables.
#826SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
DarKNecross
A warrior in my guild brought up the Exalted Lower City ring in our raid last night.
They changed [Shapeshifter's Signet] to have 20 Expertise Rating instead of the skill rating.
When I put the new values into Bellator's spreadsheet, it ended up being one or two DPS lower than [Stormrage Signet Ring].
Any thoughts on this item?

Last edited by DarKNecross : 11/16/07 at 6:20 PM.
#827SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Renaud
And please, before you try out the formula go look up the order of operations.
I LOL'ed IRL at this. It kills me how many people do not know how to do this.

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally!
#828SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
A warrior in my guild brought up the Exalted Lower City ring in our raid last night.
They changed [Shapeshifter's Signet] to have 20 Expertise instead of the skill rating.
When I put the new values into Bellator's spreadsheet, it ended up being one or two DPS lower than [Stormrage Signet Ring].
Any thoughts on this item?
It gives you expertise RATING, not expertise.
#829SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Iod
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
I LOL'ed IRL at this. It kills me how many people do not know how to do this.

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally!
Sorry for the derail, but I always found "Paul's Epileptic Mother Died At Supper" to be easier to remember.
#830SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
...
And now you see why modeling JoL is so hard, there are far too many variables.
The way I see it, it's modeling the # of attacks that is hard.

It's basically the same thing, but I don't see why to include the JoL proc rates inside the parenthesis when they can be pulled out.

JoL HPSecond = [# of attacks per second] * [50% JoL proc rate] * [JoL heal proc value]


[# of attacks per second] = [# of Auto-Attacks per second] + [# of Special Attacks per second]

This is where the math gets nasty and stuff, but if we're just interested in a ball park number, we can simplify it some more:
[# of Auto-Attacks per second] = [ 1 / (MH AS) + 1 / (OH AS) ] * [Average Haste %]

[# of Special Attacks per second] depends on class, but for warriors, just looking at the cooldowns (MS/BT per 6 seconds, WW per 8/10 seconds, etc) would work, since DPS warriors AFAIK are generally cooldown limited. (Rogues are a little more complicated since they have a talent that converts # OH autoattacks into energy into +# Special Attacks, but even then, I'm pretty sure that haste doesn't change the # of special attacks by more than 10%)

[Average Haste %] is really the trickiest part. However, if we take some short cuts, we should come up with a decent estimate. Class self-haste buffs have pretty high uptimes and can be estimated thus (90+% in good gear for Flurry; SnD is player controlled, ideally 100%). Static +haste is straightforward, and +haste procs can be converted into an average.

So let's take a Fury warrior with 2.6/1.5 AS weapons (just as an example, I don't know the "ideal" warrior DW speeds) with +10% haste from gear. and 95% flurry uptime

He'd have:
1.05 Auto-attacks per second * 110% haste from gear * 118% haste from flurry
0.41~ special attacks per second

Total: 1.78 Attacks per second -> 84~ HPS from JoL or 423 HP5 (Approximation)
#831SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0hawaiisb
Posted from my guild website following my first REAL raid ret specced.


So I'm gonna try to run through my performance at our last raid. After looking at my dps as well as other contributions I am extremely proud of my performance. It will definitely be getting better as I get used to it too.

Winterchill
1152 dps
Wow Web Stats
26640 mana back
Loading...
51870 raw healing (85% overheal)
Loading...

Anetheron
1148 dps
Loading...
17834 mana back
Loading...
84113 raw healing (too much overheal)
Wow Web Stats


Add to all of this a 3% crit buff raidwide as well as 2% of my party's damage from my aura and I would say ret is definitely raid viable. In my opinion the mana back from wisdom and the healing from light were both way under what I would have expected to see. Maybe the seals werent up the whole time or something but I remember other people showing way higher returns on those.
#832SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The way I see it, it's modeling the # of attacks that is hard.
Why couldnt we just pick fights like Teron with few of the highend guilds and average out attacks for certain specs we know for sure. Then double check possible theory attacks to that and see if they match? Not exactly the best way, but should be pretty decent if nothing else. We can always add to OP later if someone gets to do full perfect lists, but for now we could just estimate for common good.

If you are up for it, make listing of them and I will add to OP.
#833SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Might also be good to include miss/dodge/parry rate as well as these numbers would be slightly higher than what they would be. My math hasn't been updated in a few years and even then it was computational mathematics so I dont think pigeon holing helps much here. So please excuse my shabby formula hoccing =]

Ignoring haste... for now..

( (( 60 / X ) - ( 60 / X * A )) * .50 ) + ( (( 60 / Y ) - ( 60 / Y * A )) * .50 ) + ( ( S - ( S * A ) ) * .50 ) = P

X = Main hand speed
Y = Off hand speed
A = Avoidance % / 100 (dodge/parry/miss rate)
S = Number of special attacks per minute
P = Procs of JoL per minute

My first problem is whether or not specials are capped at 9% hit, in which case A would have a different value in the specials bracket if hit cap is not reached with the white damage. Unfort, Im not too aware of the miss rate comparatives between main and off hands, as well as the difference for classes.

So to test the formula.. assuming 2.6/2.6 weapon speeds (DW Whirlwinds ftw) and a 15% total avoidance to include dodge and miss (because you're attacking behind like a good little melee dps'er). Assuming 16 special attacks in a minute (BT + WW-1 rotation)

9.81 + 9.81 + 6.8 = 26.42 procs per minute

assuming your special attacks never are missed/dodged...

9.81 + 9.81 + 8 = 27.62 procs per minute

Someone would obviously have to correct the miss rate formula providing class/offhand specifics... more variables than dating a schizophrenic with parkinson syndrome.
#834SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Might also be good to include miss/dodge/parry rate as well as these numbers would be slightly higher than what they would be. My math hasn't been updated in a few years and even then it was computational mathematics so I dont think pigeon holing helps much here. So please excuse my shabby formula hoccing =]
The problem with being this nitpicky with details is that it forces you to really open a huge can of worms. If you're going to bring in every variable possible to get the most accurate result you will have to start compensating for the randomness inherent in how a percentage proc works. The only time you will ever see a perfect 50% proc is (theoretically) if you conducted a test with an infinite number of attacks. In the much smaller scales we are working with you will never get that perfect proc rate we are assuming for the equations. I used the term "ideal maximum" a lot when I was modeling Judgement of Wisdom, and that really is what these numbers are. Real game tests are the only way you will get 100% accurate numbers, and even then the results will vary from fight to fight, person to person, and time to time. There is no way to account for it because of the randomness involved with a percentage based system. Anyway, thats just my little spheal about how much I hate avoidance. On with the theorycrafting!

Modifying the formula I used earlier (thanks Fiola for the help) for avoidance will make it look something like so (without haste).
( ( 1 / X + 1 / Y + S ) - A * ( 1 / X + 1 / Y ) - ( AS * S ) ) * ( .50 ) * ( 95 ) * ( 5 ) = Hp5

X = Main hand speed
Y = Off hand speed
S = Special attacks per second
A = Avoidance (Miss + Dodge + Block + Parry)
AS = Avoidance for Specials
Since special attacks always have a 9% miss rate (as opposed to a 28% or whatever a dual wield weapon is) I felt the need to divide the avoidance for specials from the avoidance from normal melees (e.x. you might be hit capped for specials but not for normal melees). A and AS must be percentage values, and should be a lot less than 1 unless something is terribly wrong.

So using that 2.6/2.6 Fury warrior from earlier, we can model his Hp5 from JoL like so. Lets say he's got 15% to hit, no expertise, attacking from behind, has an 8 second Whirlwind cooldown, and doesn't know where his hamstring button went (and no Windfury because there are enough variables already). The boss has a 5% chance to dodge and since he's attacking from behind there is no block or parry chance.
X = 2.6
Y = 2.6
S = .292
A = .13 + .05 = .18
AS = .05

( ( 1 / X + 1 / Y + S ) - A * ( 1 / X + 1 / Y ) - ( AS * S )) * ( .50 ) * ( 95 ) * ( 5 ) = Hp5
( ( 1 / 2.6 + 1 / 2.6 + .292 ) - .18 * ( 1 / 2.6 + 1 / 2.6 ) - ( .05 * .292 )) * ( .50 ) * ( 95 ) * ( 5 ) = Hp5
( ( .38 + .38 + .292 ) - .18 * ( .38 + .38 ) - ( AS * .292 )) * ( .50 ) * ( 95 ) * ( 5 ) = Hp5
( .91 ) * ( .50 ) * ( 95 ) * ( 5 ) = Hp5

216 = Hp5
That doesn't include haste, but you get the picture.
#835SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
A lot of us have observed that the crit rates of SoB and JoB are not in line with the expected if we assume it is based on melee crit rate.

I went through about 100+ WWS reports of raiding ret paladins and I consistently see the crit hovering around 15%.

Then I wondered if it could it be a twisted mechanic in which spell crit affects SoB? The answer is no. Since I'm currently holy now on Live, I just tested out SoB with 20.5% spellcrit(25.5% Holy Crit). The sample size was somewhat small, but I got only 4% crit.

This doesn't make sense at all. We(BEs) need to do a lot more testing on this, because this can change things drastically. If SoB and JoB aren't based on melee crit rate, the gap between SoB and SoC is almost nil. I'm not even kidding here. Changing the calculation on Bellator's spreadsheet to accomodate the fact that SoB/JoB may not be based on melee crit, SoB and SoC overall DPS are pretty much identical.

If this is so, SoB's only advantage would be mana - being less expensive than max rank SoC and providing mana back through Spiritual Attunement.

Again, I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing - but to me, it seems significant enough to warrant extensive testing. Thoughts?
#836SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Speculation, but is it possible that SoB's damage gets counted as '2 hits' one to you, one to the mob, and only the one to the mob is capable of critting?
#837SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Yup, that's it. Nice catch.
#838SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Habaka
Oh my... I like this guys gear a lot, doing 1700+ dps, with 4/5 fanatism and being fine with threat?

He's thread on US forums:
WoW Forums -> The Rise of Ret - 1701 DPS (PVE)

WWS:
Saabik - WWS

Edit: I wonder if my omen threat library is not updated, since I was in the threat ceiling all night on yesterdays raid when we did Hyjal and BT (And I'm pretty sure our tank is not a gimp, though what do I know about warrior tanking :P)
#839SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Why couldnt we just pick fights like Teron with few of the highend guilds and average out attacks for certain specs we know for sure. Then double check possible theory attacks to that and see if they match? Not exactly the best way, but should be pretty decent if nothing else. We can always add to OP later if someone gets to do full perfect lists, but for now we could just estimate for common good.

If you are up for it, make listing of them and I will add to OP.
I'd love to do the math, but I plead ignorance on "typical" Class/spec gearing or WWS.


Got any good candidates in mind? (Armory of someone to analyze and a WWS of them in action)
#840SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
Oh my... I like this guys gear a lot, doing 1700+ dps, with 4/5 fanatism and being fine with threat?

He's thread on US forums:
WoW Forums -> The Rise of Ret - 1701 DPS (PVE)

WWS:
Saabik - WWS

Edit: I wonder if my omen threat library is not updated, since I was in the threat ceiling all night on yesterdays raid when we did Hyjal and BT (And I'm pretty sure our tank is not a gimp, though what do I know about warrior tanking :P)
I've been following that thread for the last day or two, it's encouraging to see results like that and positive/constructive reponses/reactions from forum-goers. Saabik is a class act.
#841SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
Edit: I wonder if my omen threat library is not updated, since I was in the threat ceiling all night on yesterdays raid when we did Hyjal and BT (And I'm pretty sure our tank is not a gimp, though what do I know about warrior tanking :P)
I can add that atleast on Friday's omen, fanaticism was still bugged. Tested by hitting a mob with white attack for around 800 and omen popping same 800 threat done and by being threatcapped according to omen at 1040dps in anetheron. No salvation used on the first test.
#842SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0orkyben
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
A warrior in my guild brought up the Exalted Lower City ring in our raid last night.
They changed [Shapeshifter's Signet] to have 20 Expertise Rating instead of the skill rating.
When I put the new values into Bellator's spreadsheet, it ended up being one or two DPS lower than [Stormrage Signet Ring].
Any thoughts on this item?
Did you try the [Stormrage Signet Ring] on when you were already at/over the hit cap?
#843SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
20 expertise rating equates to 4% reduced chance to dodge/parry yes? Where as 30 hit rating only returns 2%~ reduced chance to miss.

I assume that the extra 2% that a swing wont be avoided, would return a considerable dps increase... hell, 4% expertise almost gets rid of dodge completely from the back arc =P
#844SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
20 expertise rating equates to 4% reduced chance to dodge/parry yes? Where as 30 hit rating only returns 2%~ reduced chance to miss.

I assume that the extra 2% that a swing wont be avoided, would return a considerable dps increase... hell, 4% expertise almost gets rid of dodge completely from the back arc =P
Isn't 4~ expertise rating -> 1 expertise?


20 expertise rating would then be around 5 expertise, and each point of expertise is -.25% enemy dodge/parry, for a total of -1.25% dodge/parry


For raid DPS purposes, you'd attack from behind, so that's +1.25% hit normally, +2.5% hit when you attack from the front (for whatever reasons).
#845SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Any of you raiding ret pallies able to put together a video showing your dps on a boss in BT/Hyjal? I'm thinking about going ret as soon as s3 comes out, and was just curious to get a more visual representation of how ret pallies perform (as opposed to the spreadsheets, which I'm sick of looking at now).
#846SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
What I was kinda wondering is how many horde paladins will actually be speccing ret, considering there paladins aren't in a huge surplus on the horde side anyway and healing is usually in short supply compared to DPS classes?
If you're not speccing ret, is it more because you didn't gear for it or more because your guild simply needs you more as a healer?

As for "who the ret paladin replaces" in a raid, I was wondering if my assumption that you replace a rogue in the rougeX3 war shaman group with a ret paladin is anywhere near optimal, or would you still be running with 3 rogues even when you have a ret paladin in the raid and if so which classes will be the first to be removed? After all you're obviously not going to replace a healer with a DPSer...
#847SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
I'm confused....

Based on the spreadsheet with my current gear, i should be putting out around 1000 dps. (without windfury, etc)
Here was me in karazhan last night:

Loading...

Here is my gear...
The World of Warcraft Armory

In case there's something messed up with my armory:
1790 AP (+ darkmoon card)
83 hit
27.83 crit
(3/3 in precision)

What am i doing wrong?
- i judge crusader, SoCommand, crusader strike, concecrate rank 1, .... etc etc...
#848SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dram
You need more hit, the 95 hit rating you need to be capped is if you take the 3% hit in protection.
#849SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Dram View Post
You need more hit, the 95 hit rating you need to be capped is if you take the 3% hit in protection.
So being at 83 hit is taking my dps down that much?? (i was 3/3 precision at the time of that log)
#850SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Replace the 3-rd rogue of course, paladins are already too close to them for DPS and rogues don't have almost any raid contribution compared to paladins.
#851SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dram
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
So being at 83 hit is taking my dps down that much?? (i was 3/3 precision at the time of that log)
Ah, your armory shows you don't have the precision talent. Anyway what was seal uptime? That was a big loss of dps for me so I went and found a macro that judges and reseals with one keystroke.
#852SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
hawaiisb
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
So being at 83 hit is taking my dps down that much?? (i was 3/3 precision at the time of that log)
For comparison here is a WWS log from me as ret.

Wow Web Stats

I noticed you have Rage's bracers. Take a WWS log of your fight vs him and post it up here for the best comparison.

My gear is around your levle. You have like 70 more attack power and I have about 2.5% more crit.

The World of Warcraft Armory

A few big things pop out to me from looking over your WWS log.

1. No enhancement shaman or feral druid it looks like. I'm not even sure that you have a dps warrior. The absence of any type of buff from another class is probably a 20% dps drain.

2. Bad luck. You have 17 MORE hit rating than me. Yet you have a 33% miss on Exorcism while I had only a 10% miss rate. You have a 25% miss rate for SoC while I have a 11.5% miss rate. You missed CS by 15.3% while I missed CS by 3.2%. Judgement of Command you had 18.1% miss while I had 5.0%.

We will really need another WWS to see how you did on other bosses. This may be a massive fluke or you may just be doing things horribly wrong.

Make sure you are dpsing behind the boss so you dont get parry's. Use consumables if you expect to break 1k dps.

And very importantly make a macro that judges and then reloads soc in 1 push.

/cast judgement
/cast seal of command(rank 7)

Load up Crusader and then when you run in just hit the macro once and you already have it judged as well as command up again. DO NOT judge if you are on global cooldown because this will cause Command to not get put up. Crusader strike is number 1 priority. Push macro when youre not on CD and CS isnt up. rank 1 concecration is the cheapest 60 dps you'll ever get.

Give those a try and I look forward to seeing more WWS in the future :p

Last edited by hawaiisb : 11/17/07 at 9:01 PM.
#853SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Voinov
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
I'm confused....

Based on the spreadsheet with my current gear, i should be putting out around 1000 dps. (without windfury, etc)
Here was me in karazhan last night:

Loading...

Here is my gear...
The World of Warcraft Armory

In case there's something messed up with my armory:
1790 AP (+ darkmoon card)
83 hit
27.83 crit
(3/3 in precision)

What am i doing wrong?
- i judge crusader, SoCommand, crusader strike, concecrate rank 1, .... etc etc...
Well, i'm looking your wws page and i find some problems :

DPS time = 2 minutes :
So, you must have done :

-near 20 crusader strikes..I read you have done 6...wtf ?
-near 14 proc of Seal of Command : I read you did 7 hits whereas it is known that it makes 7 ppm...lack 7 ppm, what have you done with SoC uptime ?
-near 14 JoC : you have done 6...


Even your number of melee hits is dramatically low oO
If i consider you have dpsed the time needed to make 20 melee hits, your numbers of hits of CS, SoC and JoC is still dramatically low...you need to be more efficient on your dps cycle...
#854SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
According to the above post, with such a difference between number of hits what you were supposed to have for a normal fight length, I'm really wondering if you're even in melee range 100% of the time...

All the party buffs are HUGE for melee classes. Unless the instance is on farm they're almost not worth bringing if they can't get those buffs (rogue outside of a melee group? Get a hunter instead... at least I think that should be right).

Just something to point out is that for your seal to affect your melee swing, it needs to be active when your melee hit is made. You in no way need 100% seal uptime, as if you hit, judge, wait, reseal and then hit again you will do the same seal damage as if you had 100% seal uptime. Seal does nothing between swings.
This is relevant when you have your CS and JoC up at the same time and more than 1.5s before the next melee swing - in such a case you can judge and CS then reseal when the GCD is up. This is also why I don't see any point of going with less than 2/2 improved judgement. Sometimes you'll have to wait with the judge in order to have your seal up for the next melee swing, but sometimes you'll be able to judge even when you can't reseal right away because you'll be able to put your seal back up before the next melee swing. Due to "odd" attack speeds both situations will invitably happen in fights, thus you cannot predict a judgement rotation (not easily, at least), but will get a benefit from the last point in improved judgement.
This is specifically noticeable on the first attack in a fight - move in range with seal active spamming your CS, and as soon as your CS connects judge, and reseal as soon as your GCD is up afterwards. Your next melee swing will be affected by your seal even though your seal wasn't up 100%.

Seal needs to be up for 100% of the swings, not 100% of the time.
#855SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0hawaiisb
Ah yes i also noticed you threw up quite a lot of flash heals. If you flash heal your dps will suffer greatly as will your mana. Sometimes a spot heal is very needed but because time you spent healing is counted towards you DPS time, your dps will be significantly lower. As you can see your heals only landed for about 450 to 500 healing. Thats the main reason I don't usually heal in a raid. If you want to be treated as melee dps you've got to put 100% of your effort into doing melee dps. If your guild is fine with a low dps spot healer then maybe your one of the rare people that actually do play a hybrid raiding roll.
#856SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Frah
So I have obtained myself a ret pala for raiding. One thing I am not so sure on is how best to group them and how reliant on other classes they are. Currently if I have 1 dps group it is somethign like.. rogue rogue dps war ret/shaman and if i have 2 groups it is more like... rogue rogue dpswar shaman hunter + rogue rogue ret dps/OTwar hunter.

Obviously it is kind of hard to say as it is quite dependant on what is available. Recently I have been trying to understand better what each class wants in their group the most in order to maximize raid grouping efficiency.

I was also curious as to where this raid wide 3% crit comes from and if it still exists since the talent was removed but people still seem to mention it on the forums.

Lastly does vindication (the -%attributes) work on bosses or am i right that it is just stunable mobs?
#857SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Voinov
Originally Posted by Frah View Post

I was also curious as to where this raid wide 3% crit comes from and if it still exists since the talent was removed but people still seem to mention it on the forums.

Lastly does vindication (the -%attributes) work on bosses or am i right that it is just stunable mobs?
Yes, the +3% crit still exists, it has only been changed of place.

Vindication works on stunable mobs yes...but weirdly, it works on Void Reaver...well, i cannot be sure it is very efficient but in any case, the debuff appears on him.
#858SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
We will really need another WWS to see how you did on other bosses. This may be a massive fluke or you may just be doing things horribly wrong.
Thanks for the feedback.
Tonight we went back in and cleared the rest...

Wow Web Stats

Pretty similar results, but maybe things will look different when i try it in a 25 man (i've always raided holy up to this point)
Another problem i have is i run OOM soooo fast... but again, in both of these 10 mans i didn't have wisdom.
#859SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sapp
Have we worked out the most efficient/effective way to consume excess mana yet? Like, starting from a baseline of rank 1 SoC being judged on cooldown when it won't interfere with Cstrike and Cstrike always on cooldown, which is the most effective/efficient direction to progress in to increase mana consumption and DPS?

Upranking to max rank SoC? Keeping a rank 1 Consecrate patch active as close to 100% as possible without interfering with other cooldowns? Periodically using max-rank Consecrate?

Is it ever worthwhile to use max rank over rank 1 SoC before you're in an infinite mana situation?

Last edited by Sapp : 11/18/07 at 3:35 AM.
#860SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
Have we worked out the most efficient/effective way to consume excess mana yet? Like, starting from a baseline of rank 1 SoC being judged on cooldown when it won't interfere with Cstrike and Cstrike always on cooldown, which is the most effective/efficient direction to progress in to increase mana consumption and DPS?

Upranking to max rank SoC? Keeping a rank 1 Consecrate patch active as close to 100% as possible without interfering with other cooldowns? Periodically using max-rank Consecrate?

Is it ever worthwhile to use over rank 1 SoC?
For an alliance paladin, the new libram available in 2.3 ([Libram of Divine Judgement]) has made judgeing at every cooldown even more important than before. You really want to have that buff as much as possible. I would guess that because you will be using Judgement at every cooldown to mantain the buff, upraking SoC will be an easy way to increase your DPS without having to add too many more keystrokes. Consecration is one of those abilities that increases your DPS by a ton but ends up costing so much it might not be worth it. For a horde paladin using Blood, the libram is less important.

Since I don't have access to a ret pally right now (I need to stay holy for a bit longer so we can keep progressing) I can't really give you exact numbers at the moment. I'm nearly sure Consecration will end up being a greater DPS boost, but it is a ton more expensive than simply using max rank SoC.

The few numbers I can give are thus; no spell damage included, maximum values assumed for JoC, 3/3 Sanctified Judgement assumed, 2/2 Improved Judgement assumed:
Consecration I
64 damage over 8 seconds = 8 DPS
120 mana
15 mana per DPS

Consecration VI
512 damage over 8 seconds = 64 DPS
660 mana
10.31 mana per DPS

Judgement of Command I
50 damage every 8 seconds = 6.25 DPS
179.5 mana
28.72 mana per DPS

Judgement of Command VI
252 damage every 8 seconds = 31.5 DPS
287 mana
9.1 mana per DPS
This seems to suggest that upranking JoC to rank VI provides much more of a DPS increase than adding a rank I Consecration for less of a mana cost. Of course Consecration gets nearly double the spell damage coefficient of JoC so eventually this would change.

On a side note on the topic of librams, I thought I would let you know that [Libram of Avengement] is still bugged on live and refreshes its buff on refreshed Judgements. Good for those aspiring ret pallys out there who don't have access to the Heroic libram yet.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 11/18/07 at 5:17 AM.
#861SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
The numbers here seem reasonable to me, given that you didn't have windfury. It's probably the single most important buff you can get from your raid.

Originally Posted by Frah
Currently if I have 1 dps group it is somethign like.. rogue rogue dps war ret/shaman and if i have 2 groups it is more like... rogue rogue dpswar shaman hunter + rogue rogue ret dps/OTwar hunter.
On the same topic, your two-group configuration needs the ret in with the shaman. Even a resto shaman's WF is enough for me to be very competitive, without it I fall to the middle or even lower end of the charts.
#862SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Xaviera
I wanted to try out Ret dps since the patch, and since I'm not really doing much on my Paladin anymore, I don't have any way to test that in a raid setting. Except for the weekly Naxx pugs, which conveniently has a nice tank and spank boss!

ImageShack - Hosting :: retpatchrc4.gif

You can click my profile name to go to my armory; as you can see, while I do have some good ret gear, there's also a lot of room for improvement. I can't see Saabik's DPS gear, since it's healing currently on armory, but I'm assuming it's a lot better than mine. Mainly, I'm lacking the badge libram which is huge, and both of my rings and 2nd trinket are quite bad as well. My spec is also kind of odd because I did it before the Patch, some things changed after, and now point allocation doesn't quite make sense. Haven't respecced yet, sorry!

On this Patchwerk I had a Flask on, Scroll of Strength, Scroll of Agility, and some 20 str food. Enhance shaman, warrior, and TSA hunter in group. Also had a shadow priest, yes, I was stacking the group for fun.

I also used my Holy Mightstone [Holy Mightstone] which I kept around forever, however, I forgot to use it until Patchwerk was at like 60%. I used my Avenging Wrath at 90% in conjunction with Heroism, but forgot to use my Bloodlust Brooch then (and actually didn't use the Brooch buff at all, being so new to ret I'm not used to all the stuff yet! - I should tie the trinket use in with AW on a macro).

The shadow priest gave me 6000 mana, at the end of the fight I had 4000 mana still. It was just about 2 minutes from start to finish and I used my only potion on a Haste potion when Heroism went up at 90%.

I think that on a longer fight (3-5+ minutes), that DPS is possible. As I said, there was a lot of room for improvement still, gearwise, and timing/using trinket properly.

I'd link to the WWS but it's hosted on the DnT site, and DnT WWS is still desired to be private.

On a side note, I frapsed that Patchwerk kill but it's not particularly interesting because some of my mods weren't working properly and I had to click stuff or have icons in weird spots to see cooldowns. That, and the framerate is jittery and bad, something happened with my wow video settings in some places and my FPS was poor. (Compared to 75 fps everywhere else, this was like 15) If someone wants me to upload the video I can.

Last edited by Xaviera : 11/18/07 at 7:10 AM.
#863SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Since I don't have access to a ret pally right now (I need to stay holy for a bit longer so we can keep progressing) I can't really give you exact numbers at the moment. I'm nearly sure Consecration will end up being a greater DPS boost, but it is a ton more expensive than simply using max rank SoC.
I appreciate your input, but I actually wanted to pick the brain of someone who was both doing it currently and had run the full numbers, like Cromfel or Bellator.
#864SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Secor
Here is a hyjal wws for yall to pick apart and learn from. Its the first 4 bosses. The only thing different from then and my current armory is I had mongoose instead of executioner and I was using t5 legs instead of the bloodboil ones to sit at 97 hit rating. There are misses in there during trash but you can attribute that to the banshee curse with only 2 mages to remove it. I also off-tanked stuff that I pulled agro on so you see a few parries too.

Can skip the kazzak boss, all I did was use seal of wisdom with no SR then dumped all my mana sub 10% with regular abilities. I was using consecrate fairly often, and max rank soc the entire time on the other bosses. I only use max rank consecrate during avenging wrath and when the bosses are close to dying. As for Archimonde somehow I placed 4th for him too, wish it was recorded, oh well. I also took a few afk breaks in horde camp trash to make dinner so it isnt a good representation of what I can do at full attention.

Wow Web Stats

(I'll be able to show more wws the coming weeks and I will actually have unleased rage in them to boot.)

Last edited by Secor : 11/19/07 at 11:46 AM.
#865SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rasputin
Is anyone following the lively discussion over in the Executioner v. Mongoose thread? As much as I enjoy the incredibly cheap Savagery, I have to wonder if Executioner is better, even if it only does affect white damage. It's certainly an increase to that, and noticeable one.
#866SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0NPC
Hi guys,

I was wonderding does anyone know whether vindication reduces a mobs health when it procs or not?

If it does is it beneficial to have 3/3 vindication for faster mob kiling? (since they will have %15 less hp to chop off)
#867SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Caity
My apologies if it's been asked, but I have had the hardest problems trying to find the answer to a specific question regarding SoC and WF.

SoC vs SoB?
I have experimented with both SoC and SoB. From what I have read and know, SoB turns out to be better most of the time, giving a steady output of DPS. However, SoC can proc off of Windfury, whereas SoB cannot. I am given a shaman in raids for WF and was wondering if this would make SoC the better option for me as I have capped hit, no mana issues, as well as a large crit chance and very substantial gear.

The answer to my first question will probably answer this question however I will ask it anyway. What do you believe to be the best DPS libram for a ret pally in my situation?
Libram of Avengement, Heroic BF: Libram of Avengement - Items - World of Warcraft
Libram of Diving Judgment, badge reward: Libram of Divine Judgement - Items - World of Warcraft

Thanks for your time.
#868SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
From what I have heard in this thread and elsewhere, Seal of Blood is about 20% more damage over Seal of Command, even with Windfury. For PvE situations where you don't have to worry about your personal health too much, it's probably best to use Libram of Avengement and Seal of Blood.
#869SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rasputin
I'm not sure if I'm missing something in what you're saying, but I definitely get Seal of Blood procs from both the white attack which procs WF and the WF attack itself.

Also, an interesting post by Drysc here: Drysc post re: Ret itemization

Originally Posted by Drysc
Ret badge rewards are there, technically, but it isn't as apparent as there's still some class changes coming that will be "finishing" the intended vision of hybrid itemization.

You don't want the DPS plate now, but we want you to want it. Similar to the Heart of the Wild change, and the first 'lean' into having kitties desire rogue itemization. It's an overall change in itemization focus as we move forward, and into Wrath. We're in a state of transition now, and it's going to be a bit uncomfortable in some cases.
#870SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
You're going to want to use seal of blood 99% of the time. The only place I don't use seal of blood personally is during RoS P2/P3 for obvious reasons. It's simply just better DPS.

Also seal of blood procs off of all attacks, meaning your windfurry proc will also proc seal of blood making it even better.

Example:

03:44'30.046 Regulate gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
046 Regulate's Melee crits Anetheron for 3267
140 Regulate's gains Windfury Attack
218 Regulate's Melee crits Anetheron for 3930
953 Regulate's Seal of Blood hits Anetheron for 891 Holy damage
953 Regulate's gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
03:44'31.328 Regulate's Seal of Blood crits Anetheron for 1883 Holy damage

Use Libram of Avengement, as you're going to be using seal of blood anyways so the badge one is worthless to you. I'm pretty sure this is even better for SoC now too because the way it works is once you judge something on a mob, every-time you attack and it refreshes the judgement the buff gets refreshed too, so its always up.
#871SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by NPC View Post
I was wonderding does anyone know whether vindication reduces a mobs health when it procs or not?

If it does is it beneficial to have 3/3 vindication for faster mob kiling? (since they will have %15 less hp to chop off)
According to Fiola it does have an effect on mobs (Source). Supposedly its about a 10% reduction to mana and an unknown reduction to health. I'm personally not sold on it, dumping 3 points into a talent that is useless on fights that matter is a waste in my opinion, but it does remain a good PvP/Solo talent if you use it.

Originally Posted by Caity View Post
My apologies if it's been asked, but I have had the hardest problems trying to find the answer to a specific question regarding SoC and WF.

SoC vs SoB?
I have experimented with both SoC and SoB. From what I have read and know, SoB turns out to be better most of the time, giving a steady output of DPS. However, SoC can proc off of Windfury, whereas SoB cannot. I am given a shaman in raids for WF and was wondering if this would make SoC the better option for me as I have capped hit, no mana issues, as well as a large crit chance and very substantial gear.
Seal of Blood outdoes Command on every fight where you are not in danger of killing yourself with the recoil (Prince, RoS during Deaden, etc.). Even if you assume 20% of your attacks proc Windfury and you have a 40% chance to proc SoC from those attacks, that results in just over 1 extra proc per minute with a 3.8 speed weapon. WF alone can not justify using SoC. I'm pretty sure SoB still also procs on WF attacks (though I can't say for sure since I'm a human). And even if it doesn't, SoB has so much else going for it (damage to you = mana, melee hit rating for the Judgement, etc.) its worth it even if it doesn't proc off WF.
#872SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
I wouldn't bring the damage to you=mana argument, otherwise we'd all be stepping in AoEs for the regen... Although seal of blood does have enough other advantages (namely higher DPS) anyway. If both proc on windfury or even if both don't proc on windfury then the pressence of windfury doesn't really change which one is better... Except maybe SoB in the case that maybe SoC proc won't take windfury AP into account...

Just wondering, with low weapon skill I've noticed that if my attack glances, SoC still procs normally (as it's spell resist which is level based and not wepaon skill based). Is the same thing true for SoB? Damage based on what your melee attack *should* have done or what it actually does? I would guess it isn't affected by glances as it seems to also crit seperately than the normal attack and is a special (and specials don't glance). And while we're at it, can it be partially resisted due to boss level difference?
#873SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
Vindication is pretty much a PvP talent that happens to have a small effect in PvE.


On mobs, the -HP effect will probably be canceled out by the damage you did on that first 1/2 hits unless it's an elite or you allow it to heal itself to full. The -MP effect is not a big deal against (normal) NPCs. From my limited grinding experience post-patch, the -Str/Agi part of Vindication doesn't have a noticeable effect on incoming damage either (I'm confident there is an effect, but it's no demo shout/thunderclap).


If your prime focus is PvE, you can probably find better talents to pick up. (Vindication procs do trigger certain buffs though, so that may be worth one point)






Head's up re: ZA Ret gear: (the stuff with pure Str/Sta/+hit and a tiny bit of Armor Penetration)

WoW Forums -> Where is my ZA gear?
Originally Posted by Drysc
Ret badge rewards are there, technically, but it isn't as apparent as there's still some class changes coming that will be "finishing" the intended vision of hybrid itemization.

You don't want the DPS plate now, but we want you to want it. Similar to the Heart of the Wild change, and the first 'lean' into having kitties desire rogue itemization. It's an overall change in itemization focus as we move forward, and into Wrath. We're in a state of transition now, and it's going to be a bit uncomfortable in some cases.
Itemization changes incoming?

Last edited by Fiola : 11/19/07 at 4:12 PM.
#874SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Head's up re: ZA Ret gear: (the stuff with pure Str/Sta/+hit and a tiny bit of Armor Penetration)

WoW Forums -> Where is my ZA gear?


Itemization changes incoming?
My guess is they're going to start to transition away from spell dmg on ret gear.
I can't wait.
#875SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I wouldn't bring the damage to you=mana argument, otherwise we'd all be stepping in AoEs for the regen...
Damage is mana though. In fact, its one of the largest forms of regen a ret pally has. The are plenty of fights out there were even a holy pally won't heal himself for the simple reason that SA gives a ton of mana (I myself am guilty of this, especially on fights like Naj'entus where mana is tight to begin with). Seal of Blood does cause damage to you which does cause you to regen through heals. Its part of the seal and ignoring it is foolish and incorrect. And even though I think Blizzard designed the recoil to be a drawback the seal, it has become one of its strongest points.

Of course, the recoil is also the reason you don't use SoB is PvP.
#876SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Spiritual Attunement is a god send as a healer... While I havent gone and purposefully gotten myself almost killed so I can be healed to full, I have done things like stand in scalding water or used blessing of sacrifice to take consistent, controllable damage so that I can receive benefits from being being healed by others or taking advantage of a shadow priest in party. I also let other healers heal me instead of doing so myself unless Im in dire circumstances.

Majority of raiding encounters these days have incidental damage done to the raid or are just melee unfriendly and so being healed is no different from any other dps class in these circumstances, its just that a retadin benefits from it. So it something important to consider.

If a retadin stops to heal himself or anyone else apart from dire situations, its a waste of their time dpsing in the first place.
#877SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Of course, the recoil is also the reason you don't use SoB is PvP.
There are occasions where using SoB is highly recommendend in pvp. Eg when you're facing a mage that likes to polyform. If you time your judgement right, the recoil has a high chance of breaking polyform and other break-on-damage-CC.
#878SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
There is a difference though between regen you get through healing you would've gotten anyway, and additional damage you cause to yourself to regen that mana. If you consider the recoil effect of SoB as mana regen, you should also consider it as extra mana cost to healers. So SoB gives you more mana and takes more mana from healers. Wil the sum of it be favoring SoB? If you do the math and see it does, then great, it's another benefit. However if the net loss of healer mana is causing more problems than your healing taken is resolving, SoB's recoil would be at least not as good as what it would be with no recoil, which is why I would say to at least ignore the extra mana from recoil as that's "lowballing" its negative impact.

Of course maybe I'm wrong and it's worth it to take damage to regen mana (in which case you should also hop in AOEs from time to time when it's not too dangerous...). For a healer to intentionally take damage, unless you know for sure that damage will be healed up by a non-threat-capped shadow priests' VE (which ret paladins will not have), you will only be getting a net mana gain for the raid if the person healing you has at least 10 HP/mana, which is pretty hard to reach with most heals I think (except probably chain heal).

Bottom line is while my guestimation is possibly wrong, and SoB's recoil actually might be positive, saying it's good because it equals more mana regen is plain ignorant too. That mana regen costs mana to others, and that cost needs to be taken into account before you can say the recoil has a positive effect rather than negative.

Of course the purpose of this post isn't to say not use SoB, as it is clearly more DPS with small HP cost. It's more about "how much better/worse is SoB than previously theorycrafted considering the recoil damage?"
#879SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Vitalay
Haven't warlocks been doing this math for years?
#880SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
So SoB gives you more mana and takes more mana from healers. Wil the sum of it be favoring SoB? If you do the math and see it does, then great, it's another benefit. However if the net loss of healer mana is causing more problems than your healing taken is resolving, SoB's recoil would be at least not as good as what it would be with no recoil, which is why I would say to at least ignore the extra mana from recoil as that's "lowballing" its negative impact.
Between seal of light and the odds and end chain heal splashes, the SoB damage is really subtle. The fact is it still gives me a bit more mana to play around with, without putting a strain on healers. For any half decent healer group SoB isn't going to cause problems. I don't think any BE paladin has been told to stop using SoB because their healers are running into mana problems, and if they are it's not from a ret paladin using SoB.
#881SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
That's not what I was saying. SoB is obviously worth using for the extra damage alone even at the cost of health. What I was saying is that the "it's good to take damage because it gives you mana" is not nescessarily true and needs further analysys than just saying "it's not much damage it's fine". Granted you can say that as an argument for using SoB for its damage, but it's not a good enough argument to justify the recoil damage being a "good thing". For taking damage to be a "good thing" it needs to be that the effort to heal you back up is worth the mana you gain. Whatever that effort it takes to heal it up VS whatever gains you actually get from it (because granted, small damage = small healing = also small mana return) is much more difficult to figure out.

Bottom line is you need to figure out if (assuming it doesn't kill him, obviously) taking X damage is worth the X/10 mana returned or not, from a raid-wise prespective. Of course if you're getting spammed with overheals it's probably worth it, but that's not something to automatically assume for every fight.
Also does JoL actually trigger spiritual attunement? Because if you bring JoL as somethign that helps negate the recoil you're also saying JoL is actually negative because it's less mana regen...

this is about the recoil effect being bad VS good, not about SoB being bad VS good. We know SoB is good. Just need to figure out if the reoil effect is really making it better or not, and obviously saying it's better because it's equivalent to mana regen is rather ignorant since *something* needs to be healing that damage back up.
#882SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
A warrior in my guild brought up the Exalted Lower City ring in our raid last night.
They changed [Shapeshifter's Signet] to have 20 Expertise Rating instead of the skill rating.
When I put the new values into Bellator's spreadsheet, it ended up being one or two DPS lower than [Stormrage Signet Ring].
Any thoughts on this item?
Backtracking a bit, Sigurd brought up the changed Lower City ring which now grants 20 Expertise Rating. I don't think I saw anyone respond to him, and I'd really like to know what others thought. Is this item worthy of using if you haven't a lot of expertise? Being a human myself, I have a base 5 expertise rating, and none of my gear has the item stat expertise currently. I've been considering grabbing this ring and replacing my [A'dal's Command] - the loss of strength might be outweighed by the -dodge from expertise. Does anyone have a guideline for what amount of strength outweighs what amount of expertise rating?
#883SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
We cleared TK yesterday for some attunements and I have to say Im extremely pleased by the results with Kael'Thas encounter, despite the fact that I died. Usually I consider this kind of events very bad for Retribution, but I was #1 on dps and #8 on overall damage (Lets blame the few minute of being death and few phases where you wont get to do real damage for the low overall placement). Unfortunately my fraps was old version and the video files made Adobe Premier to crash, so I cant make movie out of it. Refreshingly good results to say the least.
#884SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Originally Posted by DarKNecross
A warrior in my guild brought up the Exalted Lower City ring in our raid last night.
They changed [Shapeshifter's Signet] to have 20 Expertise Rating instead of the skill rating.
When I put the new values into Bellator's spreadsheet, it ended up being one or two DPS lower than [Stormrage Signet Ring].
Any thoughts on this item?
Backtracking a bit, Sigurd brought up the changed Lower City ring which now grants 20 Expertise Rating. I don't think I saw anyone respond to him, and I'd really like to know what others thought. Is this item worthy of using if you haven't a lot of expertise? Being a human myself, I have a base 5 expertise rating, and none of my gear has the item stat expertise currently. I've been considering grabbing this ring and replacing my [A'dal's Command] - the loss of strength might be outweighed by the -dodge from expertise. Does anyone have a guideline for what amount of strength outweighs what amount of expertise rating?
You bringing attention to that ring just made my week.
Time to pug some shadow labs runs LOLOL /sigh

but still... it'll be worth it.
#885SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
You bringing attention to that ring just made my week.
Time to pug some shadow labs runs LOLOL /sigh

but still... it'll be worth it.
I'm on the fence about the usefulness of this ring. As a retribution paladin, most of the time we'll be attacking from behind, which halves the usefulness of expertise - we shouldn't be seeing any parries, so reducing parry rate becomes a moot point. 20 expertise rating is, 'round about, -1.25% dodge? When compared to the A'dal's Command ring, granting 29 strength, you're then pitting 58 attack power (about 70 after Kings and Divine Strength come into play) against a little over 1% more of your attacks landing instead of being dodged. I'm inclined to stay with the AP.
#886SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0orkyben
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
I'm on the fence about the usefulness of this ring. As a retribution paladin, most of the time we'll be attacking from behind, which halves the usefulness of expertise - we shouldn't be seeing any parries, so reducing parry rate becomes a moot point. 20 expertise rating is, 'round about, -1.25% dodge? When compared to the A'dal's Command ring, granting 29 strength, you're then pitting 58 attack power (about 70 after Kings and Divine Strength come into play) against a little over 1% more of your attacks landing instead of being dodged. I'm inclined to stay with the AP.
Heavily dependant on what your fighting I can imagine; on some bosses "standing behind" it isn't as easy as it sounds. Due to the AP scaling with buffs though, I'd be more inclined to the Adal's Command as well - plus it saves a whole load of Shadow Labs pugs.

Also, does anybody know if SoB procs Mongoose?
#887SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
That's not what I was saying. SoB is obviously worth using for the extra damage alone even at the cost of health. What I was saying is that the "it's good to take damage because it gives you mana" is not nescessarily true and needs further analysys than just saying "it's not much damage it's fine". Granted you can say that as an argument for using SoB for its damage, but it's not a good enough argument to justify the recoil damage being a "good thing". For taking damage to be a "good thing" it needs to be that the effort to heal you back up is worth the mana you gain. Whatever that effort it takes to heal it up VS whatever gains you actually get from it (because granted, small damage = small healing = also small mana return) is much more difficult to figure out.

Bottom line is you need to figure out if (assuming it doesn't kill him, obviously) taking X damage is worth the X/10 mana returned or not, from a raid-wise prespective. Of course if you're getting spammed with overheals it's probably worth it, but that's not something to automatically assume for every fight.
Also does JoL actually trigger spiritual attunement? Because if you bring JoL as somethign that helps negate the recoil you're also saying JoL is actually negative because it's less mana regen...

this is about the recoil effect being bad VS good, not about SoB being bad VS good. We know SoB is good. Just need to figure out if the reoil effect is really making it better or not, and obviously saying it's better because it's equivalent to mana regen is rather ignorant since *something* needs to be healing that damage back up.
Here's a little number crunching.

My Holy Light VII heals for about 2400 on someone without BoL in a raid (roughly).

Assuming a BE ret pally hits for exactly 1000 damage every swing, he will be dealing 350 damage with his SoB procs and taking 135 damage in recoil. It will take nearly 18 melee attacks for the recoil damage to exceed how much I can heal for in one heal, or 1 minute 8 seconds with a 3.8 speed weapon. In addition 50% of those melee attacks have procced Judgement of Light, refunding him 855 health. The actual time before I require more than 1 heal to bring him to full is extended even longer.

My Holy Light VII costs 438 mana to cast (with the Lurker Libram). The BE pally will only get back 240 mana. So is it a loss of mana technically. But it is mana gained for the ret pally, who frankly needs it a lot more than I do. Ret pallys have so little regen that any little bit helps. And in all seriousness, if your mana is so tight as a healer that you can't afford to throw one extra heal every minute or so then the problem lies with you, not the ret pally. Learn to chain chug like the rest of us.

And yes, JoL does proc Spiritual Atunement. Its a heal from "Judgement of Light" which is not you, so you get mana for it.
#888SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
So if you assume JoL generally overheals but with SoB it won't, it definitely adds a positive factor to the recoil effect.
However I don't find a healer wasting 2X the mana as the ret paladin gains back as a good thing. Yes you can probably be fine doing it (which is why you use SoB really, otherwise you wouldn't), but the recoil damage does actually hurt the healer (in mana lost and healing done to ret paladin instead of someone else) more than it helps (by finishing the fight faster). However since only 1/2 the healing is actually required it's starting to look better. Add the efficiency of chain heals over holy light for raid healing and it's starting to make me think you can actually look at the SoB recoil as a non-negative effect if you assume JoL would otherwise mostly overheal (which would not be true in fights where there's consistent AOE that doesn't get healed up instantly (first example that comes to mind: netherspite).

After all though it still only ends up with the SoB recoil being something more or less break-even, meaning it doesn't help nor hurt the raid at the end, at least not much. However this can be analized better of course, but I definitely wouldn't simply count SoB's recoil as extra mana ignoring everything else, when for example checking how much more dps you get with it compared to SoC.
#889SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
And yes, JoL does proc Spiritual Atunement. Its a heal from "Judgement of Light" which is not you, so you get mana for it.
It doesn't.

Zrave's Judgement of Light heals Zrave for 115

(No mana returned)
#890SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
So since healing done by JoL doesn't return any mana, it's effectively (at best) reduction to the recoil damage done by SoB, which means it's actually a bad thing according to the model considering it as extra mana regen

So I still say your healers need to have good HP/mana ratio (definitely better than raid healing HL, maybe chain heal can have enough HP/mana to be worth it) for the recoil to be a good thing, and even then... Increasing a paladin's mana isn't a whole lot of DPS (compared to what, say other classes could do with that extra mana). Even if it's a 1:1 conversion (as in you get healed with a 10 HP/mana spell) would you really spend a healer's time just to transfer mana to the paladin? is that really a good thing?
#891SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
It doesn't.

Zrave's Judgement of Light heals Zrave for 115

(No mana returned)
I'm nearly positive thats because its your JoL (SA can not proc on your own heals). Unless someone can show me a combat log of another paladin's JoL refusing to proc SA for you then I'm still sure it does return mana. Remember also that the change to SA in 2.1 requires the heal to be 100% effective healing, any overheal and SA will not proc.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
So since healing done by JoL doesn't return any mana, it's effectively (at best) reduction to the recoil damage done by SoB, which means it's actually a bad thing according to the model considering it as extra mana regen

So I still say your healers need to have good HP/mana ratio (definitely better than raid healing HL, maybe chain heal can have enough HP/mana to be worth it) for the recoil to be a good thing, and even then... Increasing a paladin's mana isn't a whole lot of DPS (compared to what, say other classes could do with that extra mana). Even if it's a 1:1 conversion (as in you get healed with a 10 HP/mana spell) would you really spend a healer's time just to transfer mana to the paladin? is that really a good thing?
If you are a raid healer in a decent 25 man you will only be healing the raid. That means 100% of your time is spent healing non-tank raid members. You are not losing any "healing time" by throwing an extra heal every minute on a ret pally. A healer who tries to pad his/her numbers by doing jobs they aren't assigned to unless it is absolutely necessary is putting people in danger of dying which in turn puts the raid in danger of wiping. Saying "what the other classes could do with more mana" is a fallacy. No DPS classes are getting that mana. No other class in the game regens mana from heals (except arguably Warlocks, but that is a different case of active vs passive). What is that healer gonna do with the extra mana? No DPS, I can guarantee that. As I said before, if your mana pool and regen on your healers is so small that they can't accommodate that then there is something wrong with your healers, not Seal of Blood recoil.

And please, I know raid healing with Holy Light isn't ideal, but its the only realistic numbers I can give you without doing way too much math for this rather pointless argument. If I roll a 70 Shaman and get him into equivalent gear (i.e. never gonna happen) I'll be more than happy to do it for Chain Heal as well.
#892SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I'm nearly positive thats because its your JoL (SA can not proc on your own heals). Unless someone can show me a combat log of another paladin's JoL refusing to proc SA for you then I'm still sure it does return mana. Remember also that the change to SA in 2.1 requires the heal to be 100% effective healing, any overheal and SA will not proc.
It's not. JoL is counted as your own heals, like prayer of mending or earth shield. Pulling Cromfel's Kael WWS for credibility

WWS

Look at any of the melee. JoL healing is credited to them.
#893SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
It's not. JoL is counted as your own heals, like prayer of mending or earth shield. Pulling Cromfel's Kael WWS for credibility

WWS

Look at any of the melee. JoL healing is credited to them.
Ok, I was incorrect.

So if we look at it this way:
18 attacks for SoB to cause > 2400 recoil damage (with steady 1000 white attacks).
18 attacks with a 3.8 speed weapon = 68.4 seconds.
11 Crusader Strikes in 68.4 seconds.
29 attacks in 68.4 seconds that can proc JoL.
14.5 procs of JoL.
1377.5 healed from JoL.
1022.5 effective damage taken.

1000 damage is a little more than a Rank IV Flash of Light for myself raid buffed (raid buffed it is about 900-925). Rank V FoL is much over that, around 1150. But for argument's sake, a Rank IV FoL is 90 mana, and a Rank V is 115. If I healed a ret pally with a Rank IV Flash of Light due only to his recoil damage he will regen more than the heal cost for me.

There ya go.
#894SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Now the *real* question is, is it really a good deal to give away a healer mana to the ret paladin? I suppose when healing is a nonissue compared to DPS then it's worth it, although that isn't nescessarily always the case. That extra mana on the paladin could possibly make the raid last longer by a bigger margin than how much faster it would kill the boss by using it on a ret paladin's DPS. It could possibly also not be true, although I doubt it.

Thinking about it in any fight where there is aoe damage the ret paladin can take without dying, it completely nullifies every advantage SoB might be having due to the recoil, since a SoC paladin can decide to take just as much damage and regen just as much mana. Basically if you're saying "SoB's recoil is a good thing" you're saying "it's a good thing for the paladin to take as much damage as possible without dying (at least up to the point where extra mana doesn't give as much DPS, such as when you start using a less effieicnt ability to burn it). And I'm really not sure that's true, and even if it is, it's definitely not nearly as good as straight-up mana regen and thus shouldn't be modeled like that, which was my primary point - You can't model SoB's recoil as straight mana regen no matter how you look at it unless it's both impossible to intentionally take AOE damage without dying AND your healers are clearly overkilling the encounter.

I'm not saying the recoil makes SoB *bad*, as we all know that it does better DPS. I'm just saying that the recoil, in general, doesn't make it any better.
#895SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Now the *real* question is, is it really a good deal to give away a healer mana to the ret paladin?
Who else is gonna use the mana? If a healer is not healing his spot is wasted (contray to popular belief, even with all the free spell damage we do not DPS in raid outside of the few "fun times" like the trash in Hyjal). Are you asking if its better to heal a lock who's life taping than a ret pally using SoB? Honestly for the life of my I can not figure out what you are getting at here.

Healing a mage is a pure loss of mana for the healer. The mage gains nothing from that heal other than extended DPS time. What does a BE pally get? Extended DPS time and a small amount of regen. So it looks like the pally is actually getting more from his "self-death" than the mage.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I'm not saying the recoil makes SoB *bad*, as we all know that it does better DPS. I'm just saying that the recoil, in general, doesn't make it any better.
Whether you like it or not, that recoil is regen. Period. No matter how small it is, no matter if it takes me an extra 400 mana over the course of a fight to keep him topped off, it is free mana to a DPS player. How is that not an increase in value to the spell?

The fights in the game where healing is so tight that you would see mana problems due to excess healing (usually due to large AoE damage) can not be used as examples, because a ret pally won't be using Blood in these cases. Only someone who really wanted to die would use Blood on Naj'entus or RoS (for example).
#896SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Who else is gonna use the mana? If a healer is not healing his spot is wasted
And thus instead of making him feed you mana you're probably better off bringing another DPSer... Of course that's taking things to the extreme but it is another point.
Again if the SoB damage is a good thing, so is any AOE damage that you can take, on purpose or not, as long as it doesn't kill you. If you somehow find that it's actually good, that means all ret paladins should be throwing themselves in every possible AOE (as long as it doesn't kill them) so that they have more mana, on fights where this is possible.
#897SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
And thus instead of making him feed you mana you're probably better off bringing another DPSer... Of course that's taking things to the extreme but it is another point.
What? If you need a single healer to heal through less than 200 damage every 4 seconds you need to start bringing better healers. It is perfectly easy to simply throw a renew on the pally every minute or so. "ZOMG, we just wasted a GCD on a ret pally." Is that too much too?

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Again if the SoB damage is a good thing, so is any AOE damage that you can take, on purpose or not, as long as it doesn't kill you. If you somehow find that it's actually good, that means all ret paladins should be throwing themselves in every possible AOE (as long as it doesn't kill them) so that they have more mana, on fights where this is possible.
To an extent this is true. If you know your healers can handle it and are ready for it you can get a lot more mana from standing in a bit of AoE (as long as the healers are aware of it) or throwing a BoSac on a tank, which in turn increases the DPS you can do. This isn't a license to be reckless and go "I'm gonna stand next in the Saber Lash on Mother Sharaz so I can get lots of heals!!!!" but pretending SA doesn't exist and not using it to its full advantage is a mistake that far too many paladins, ret and holy, make.
#898SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dio
I've followed this thread closely the past couple of days (just registered here on elitistjerks today though).

I play a bloodelf paladin and im currently raiding as retribution, and I plan to continue doing so.

My question comes down to this.

SoB or SoC?, and if I pick SoB I should really have no spelldmg should I? guess I should go for purely "warrior gear"?


and if SoC. How much spellpower is worth going for, before you start gimping your self?
#899SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0RangerSix
Any report yet on weither Executioner is better then Savagery/Mongoose for an alliance paladin?
#900SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by Dio View Post
I've followed this thread closely the past couple of days (just registered here on elitistjerks today though).

I play a bloodelf paladin and im currently raiding as retribution, and I plan to continue doing so.

My question comes down to this.

SoB or SoC?, and if I pick SoB I should really have no spelldmg should I? guess I should go for purely "warrior gear"?


and if SoC. How much spellpower is worth going for, before you start gimping your self?
Do we have to go over this every page?

You're a horde paladin, say NO to spell damage gear. Gear yourself 100% as a warrior. Make sure you're hit capped 9% with talents, gem for +strength when you can. I have a whopping 0 spell damage and I constantly pull 1500-1700 DPS with SoB, just don't worry about spell damage.

Use seal of blood unless you can kill yourself with it (Prince, RoS) stuff like that. I'm unsure about the SoC question, I'm sure some alliance ret paladins can help you out there.
#901SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Dio View Post
...

and if SoC. How much spellpower is worth going for, before you start gimping your self?
If you regularly use your abilities (CS, JoC), 1 +dmg is worth 1~ AP (More for multiple target AoE, less if you're not using abilities every cooldown)


In that case, the best +dmg to get is on armor that already comes with Strength. (Tier armor, PvP non-set epics, that one belt from BT) When you compare them with equivalent warrior items, you find the "equivalent AP" from Str & +dmg on the paladin item is higher than the AP from the warrior item. (You do trade off stats like crit/hit - that might be made up for with the int and mana efficiency/mana regen set bonuses)


Every other armor type trades off too much. Accessories tend to be Melee OR Caster; getting +dmg would mean getting excessive caster stats like spell crit or spell hit without any melee stats like Str or Crit/Hit. Weapons follow the same pattern.


(All that said, I'd still recommend getting some +dmg gear to use for AoE, normal dungeon tanking and the like)
#902SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
WoW Forums -> Crusader Strike
Originally Posted by Eyonix
In an upcoming mini-patch, we're making a change to crusader strike so that it will cause 110% of weapon damage and no longer gain any bonus from spell damage.

Discuss. I'll follow-up in this thread as needed.
#903SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
What they could do with Sanctified Judgement, is to make the manareturn equal the time used for Seal. You are judging once every 10 seconds by default, 8seconds with talents. Thats 33% of Seal duration. Sanctified Judgement should return mana accordingly, giving that remaining 66% of mana back. Make it 75% and we have a judgement promotional system. That way it doesnt feel like ripoff to judge seal with high manacost at 30% of its full duration.
" * Sanctified Judgments (Retribution) now returns 80% of the Seal's mana cost, increased from 50%. "

Now thats what I call reaction

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....26842681&sid=1

Looks very nice.
#904SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
I wonder what they're trying to do with the retpally. By throwing away our dependancy (hopefully a SoC change will be done? Allys must seriously miss SoB... well, much more, now that SD isn't efficient on CS) to SD they're also taking away our hability to throw a heal every now and then. I don't think it's a bad thing, since our heals are close to nothing anyway, but the hybrid side... well, it doesn't look like blizz want to fix us to be hybrid. Anyway, I'm BE, so hurray for that change.

About exec: Did two runs of half an hour, couldn't host them on wws. And I don't know why, but the first one is 28mn long, the over one 30mn. And I'm pretty sure I stopped combatlogging at the same point. Anyway, they both score 28 executionners proc. Since I got a couple of epics with armor penetration, I think I'll go for it on my next weapon - if it's ever to loot - since regarding armor penetration, the more you get the betterit is. I tend to think it won't be that efficient for us but I'll be able to gather some other runs on blasted on my live server that way.
#905SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SomeoneRandom
Based on the spreadsheet.. it has executioner slightly ahead of both savagery and mongoose... which is interesting.... considering I am currently using Soul Cleaver and Choker of Serrated Blades, I am thinking about trying it out.... but with only a 1ppm that you have seen I am having my doubts.

That test you ran was with CS and Judge? or just white hits?
#906SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
While the more armor penetration you have the better it is to get more, the difference is very very small. Especially between different gearsets. As in someone geared for armor penetration gets very little additional benefit from armor penetration compared to someone who has none on his gear. Increasing effects - yes. Much - no.
#907SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0noth
galzohar - can you explain that a little more? Why is armor penetration better the more you have? I've seen a few people say this but I've never been able to see anything explaining why, or the mechanics behind armor pen... I guess i just don't understand how armor reduction on damage works...
#908SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 zeidrich
Originally Posted by noth View Post
galzohar - can you explain that a little more? Why is armor penetration better the more you have? I've seen a few people say this but I've never been able to see anything explaining why, or the mechanics behind armor pen... I guess i just don't understand how armor reduction on damage works...
In short, the lower mobs armor gets, the more benefit you get from taking off an additional point of armor.

Taking a mob from 250 armor to 0 armor gives you a larger increase in DPS than taking a mob from 500 to 250 armor.

Therefore taking a mob from 500 to 0 armor is more than twice as effective as taking a mob from 500 to 250 armor.

Thus, the second 250 armor penetration you get is better than the first 250 armor penetration you have.
#909SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
In the above example, it would be FAR FAR less than twice as effective. More effective yes, but very slightly.

Armor is most easily looked at as an "EHP" (effective hit points) increase. EHP=HP*(1+armor/constant) where the constant can be derived easily if you play around with the (kinda well-known and agreed upon) armor mitigation formula. IIRC the constant is somewhere in the 10k area (or was it more like 12-13k? I really don't remember, but doesn't matter for the purpose of this post).

As you can see, if for example a target has 0.5 armor/constant, reducing armor/constant by 0.5 will cause the target to lose 1/3 of its EHP, and thus dying 50% faster (2/3 of the time taken to kill = 3/2 killing speed as distance = time * speed). If the target had 1 armor/constant, reducing 0.5 would reduce it from 2X EHP to 1.5X, or reducing EHP by 25%, thus reducing time needed to kill to 3/4 or increasing killing speed to 4/3 - 33% faster.

That shows how armor penetration relative DPS increase scales up as you get more of it. However if you look up at the appropriate threads regarding how much armor bosses actually have, or if you even just find (or use my rough) constant and compare it to your armor penetration, you can see that the numbers you're playing with are much smaller than that constant, therefore you get much smaller benefits.

Assuming a 10k constant, 1000 armor mob would have 1.1X EHP. Reducing it to 500 armor would reduce it to 1.05X EHP, increasing DPS by ~4.7%. Once you already have that 500 armor penetration and know how much DPS you do with it, reducing additional 500 armor would reduce the mob's EHP from 1.05X to 1 thus increasing DPS by ~5%. As you can see the additional effects of armor penetration even when you get a lot of armor penetration gear is not big at all, but it's definitely there.

EDIT: Just to point out that I didn't really bother looking for exact values from the appropriate threads, but if that interests you feel free to do so, however you will not get significantly different results as those numbers aren't too far from reality. You may get penetration to scale slightly better or slightly worse with more penetration, but you're *not* going to go and say "omg armor penetration has such awesome increasing effects! I have so much of it I need more!"
#910SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0noth
thanks galzohar, that was what I was looking for.
#911SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 zeidrich
You misunderstood me. I was just saying the 500 point reduction was more than twice as effective as the 250 point reduction. NOT that the additional 250 point reduction gave twice the effect as the first 250 point reduction. I'm in perfect agreement that the scaling effects of stacking armor penetration is very marginal. But I just wanted to point out how it worked.

The DR formula is: Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

At level 70 that is Armor / (Armor + 70057.5)

500 armor is 0.70864188782198915777911632356589 % DR
250 armor is 0.35558084130427052590406428901611 % DR
0 armor is 0% DR

Assuming you're doing 1000 DPS before armor and a theoretical mob with 500 base armor.

At 0 armor reduction you're doing 992.91358112178010842220883676435 DPS
At 250 armor reduction you're doing 996.44419158695729474095935710984 DPS
At 500 armor reduction you're doing 1000 DPS.

Going from 250 to 500 armor reduction is a difference of 3.55580841304270525904064289016 DPS
Going from 0 to 250 armor reduction is a difference of 3.5306104651771863187505203455 DPS
Going from 0 to 500 armor reduction is a difference of 7.0864188782198915777911632356589

2*3.5306104651771863187505203455 = 7.061220930354372637501040691

7.0864188782198915777911632356589 > 7.061220930354372637501040691

So going from 0 to 500 armor reduction is more than twice as effective as going from 0 to 250 armor reduction.

But obviously, as you can see, the difference is minute. It is only 0.3% more. I would not spend time trying to stack armor reduction for some magical cumulative effect. It's tiny.

MAJOR EDIT: I may have made a mistake somewhere, as the poster above me has mentioned the constant for armor is around 10000. I remember it being 10,535 or something to that extent. The formula I used was from wowwiki, Armor - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft and I believe it could be wrong. But as the above poster mentioned, there is some constant (k) where DR is evaluated as Armor/(Armor-k), so while the numbers may be off in reality, the concept they illustrate should still be valid.

Last edited by zeidrich : 11/21/07 at 7:31 PM.
#912SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SomeoneRandom
Well, for example completely naked, my paladin has 188 armor which according to my character sheet is 1.75% reduction, with an extra 861 armor (Devo Aura, closest thing I could get to 840) I have 9.04% reduction....

That is a VERY sizeable difference in damage in my book... a 1000 damage hit would do

982.5 (with executioner proc up) or
909.6 (without executioner proc up)
Extra 73 DMG!

Compare this to a middle armor range cloth user(picked a random mage in my guild) who has 2014 armor... 16.23% reduction, without devo aura down to 1153 armor, 10.08% reduction...


837.7(without executioner proc up)
899.2(with executioner proc up)
Extra 65 DMG!

The difference in the two is 12% increase in the effectiveness of your armor pen... granted its not much... but IS a noticeable increase.... especially once you have higher numbers and can start shredding mobs/players with 3kish down to 0...
#913SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
I built a chart comparing the DPS gain of 100-1000 Armor Penetration when the target has 1K - 10K AC.


800 Armor Penetration
2K AC: +6.80% physical damage
4K AC: +5.82% physical damage
6k AC: +5.08% physical damage
8k AC: +4.51% physical damage

** Note: Used 10557 as armor constant, derived from my own character sheet percentages


So if Executioner has 1 PPM and lasts 15 seconds, then it's 25~% damage bonus over time. (+1.1~1.7% physical damage on average). If you do 1K DPS, with 70% of that physical damage, that would yield an average 7.7~11.9 DPS.


EDIT: Oh hey, I can copy/paste. Here's my numbers:
AC\AP	100	200	300	400	500	600	700	800	900	1000
1000	0.87%	1.76%	2.67%	3.59%	4.52%	5.48%	6.45%	7.44%	8.45%	9.47%
2000	0.80%	1.62%	2.45%	3.29%	4.15%	5.02%	5.90%	6.80%	7.72%	8.65%
3000	0.74%	1.50%	2.26%	3.04%	3.83%	4.63%	5.44%	6.27%	7.11%	7.96%
4000	0.69%	1.39%	2.10%	2.83%	3.56%	4.30%	5.05%	5.82%	6.59%	7.38%
5000	0.65%	1.30%	1.97%	2.64%	3.32%	4.01%	4.71%	5.42%	6.14%	6.87%
6000	0.61%	1.22%	1.85%	2.48%	3.11%	3.76%	4.41%	5.08%	5.75%	6.43%
7000	0.57%	1.15%	1.74%	2.33%	2.93%	3.54%	4.15%	4.77%	5.40%	6.04%
8000	0.54%	1.09%	1.64%	2.20%	2.77%	3.34%	3.92%	4.51%	5.10%	5.70%
9000	0.51%	1.03%	1.56%	2.09%	2.62%	3.17%	3.71%	4.27%	4.82%	5.39%
10000	0.49%	0.98%	1.48%	1.98%	2.49%	3.01%	3.53%	4.05%	4.58%	5.11%

Last edited by Fiola : 11/21/07 at 8:30 PM.
#914SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Of course you're taking the armor range up to 8k, while in reality as I understand from the "boss armor values" thread is way highballing the boss armor, so the range of min~max DPS increase from armor penetration should be much smaller.
#915SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Of course you're taking the armor range up to 8k, while in reality as I understand from the "boss armor values" thread is way highballing the boss armor, so the range of min~max DPS increase from armor penetration should be much smaller.
It can go up that high in PvP. = )


Looking at that thread ([RAID] Boss armor values), there are mobs with pretty high AC - VR has 10.7k, for instance. With SA, that'd only be reduced to 8.2k~ a little lower with FF and various other debuffs.


In either case, it was just meant to be a rough estimate. 800 AC is worth around +5% physical damage against typical AC values, more if raid-debuffed. (Executioner is -840, and you can get some more -AC from gear.)
#916SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nero
sorry for the noobish question and i've done some looking but this is mainly for the Ret pally in our guild who i trying very hard to proove to us hes viable.

Should a ret pally be using rank 2 consecrate on a single target when dpsing? hell, should he be using consecrate at all?

My gut tells me no.~ =[
#917SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prinsesa
In an upcoming mini-patch, we're making a change to crusader strike so that it will cause 110% of weapon damage and no longer gain any bonus from spell damage.
I think this is the second step of the transitional change that Drysc/Eyonix was referring to in the Zul'Aman loot thread.

The first step was offering us Zul'Aman/Heroic/Season 3 loot that was heavy on the STR/AP, but light (or more like nonexistent) on the spell damage. Obviously, this made some people mad at first, because having 0 spell damage when your abilities still have a coefficient represents wasted potential.

Now, it looks like they're working on the mechanics side of things by removing our dependency on spell damage.

That being said, it's not perfect yet given:
1. Seal of Command still has a spell damage coefficient and is the only DPS seal option for Alliance.
2. Judgment of the Crusader increases Holy spell damage, which coefficient-less abilities would not benefit from
3. Judgments of Command and Blood still have spell damage coefficients as well

It'll be interesting to see what additional steps Blizzard will take in this direction.
#918SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Originally Posted by nero View Post
sorry for the noobish question and i've done some looking but this is mainly for the Ret pally in our guild who i trying very hard to proove to us hes viable.

Should a ret pally be using rank 2 consecrate on a single target when dpsing? hell, should he be using consecrate at all?

My gut tells me no.~ =[

Yes, in fact he should use max rank (rank 6) if he's able to.

Of course this really dependent on his group/raid setup and what buffs/group synergy they can offer (and gear).


I usually have BoW, JoW, unimproved mana spring from my shammy to help me out + spamming mana pots on cooldown and I can pretty much keep up full rank consecration spam throughout most fights.

That's an added average +150 DPS or more on a single target with ~260 spelldamage on gear (and JotC, Sanctity Aura, Vengeance), which is not a small amount.


My rule of thumb usually is to look at my mana bar and make sure that consecration spam is not going to eat up into my ability to use all other attacks without pause.
#919SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
I think this is the second step of the transitional change that Drysc/Eyonix was referring to in the Zul'Aman loot thread.

The first step was offering us Zul'Aman/Heroic/Season 3 loot that was heavy on the STR/AP, but light (or more like nonexistent) on the spell damage. Obviously, this made some people mad at first, because having 0 spell damage when your abilities still have a coefficient represents wasted potential.

My only fear is that they only do half a job. This would probably be even worse than leaving it as it is.

There's so many things that could be neglected/overlooked during this change and Blizzard does have a track record of introducing 10 oddities every time they fix 5 problems.

Anyway, trying to be an optimist and hoping that they "do" do a good job, here's what's missing:

-SoC benefits from AP instead of Spelldamage
-JoC benefits from AP instead of Spelldamage
-JoC changed to melee hit (!! - One of the before mentioned oddities that has been overlooked for ages)
-Ret Itemization (at least the Tier Sets) reworked with increased Melee Stats instead of Spelldamage
-Consecration/Exorcism/Holy Wrath/Hammer of Wrath all gain from BOTH AP as well as Spelldamage, this way neither ret or prot/holy paladins are cut out from upgrading these abilities, which we all do use atm in all specs.
-JotC now gives a percent damage increase to holy damage abilities on the target instead of flat spelldamage, balanced around how much +260 spelldamage from imp JotC now gives us. This way it would still remain the same benefit to ret/prot/holy without becoming an imba +AP raid buff (trying to maintain neutrality without buffs, but that would be a good idea).


My estimation:

Somewhere along the line they'll forget about the use of consecration/exorcism/holy wrath or muck up JotC. Maybe a forum post on blizz forums is in order to get some attention.


Of course alternatively they could have just given us an AP -> Spelldamage talent like they gave enhancement shammies, then all these changes wouldn't be necessary, but I assume that's not the case anymore considering the change to CS.
#920SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
I don't understand much of the "dependancy" on spell damage. Right some abilities scale only with it, and it does increase ret paladin DPS, but both alliance and horde get noticeably more DPS from AP and STR per itemization point, which results in most/all cases with the spell damage gear providing less DPS than pure warrior gear (with possible few exceptions, which ATM I'm not going to look for as you have a spreadsheet to do it for you). If they do remove benefits from spell damage though they should definitely change the sets. Heck they should change the sets anyway comsidering the much smaller benefit from spell damage compared to STR/AP/crit/hit.
#921SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prinsesa
I don't understand much of the "dependancy" on spell damage
It represents wasted potential. As Muphrid once put it, "people don't want to know they're good, they want to know they're the best they can be." That 43% coefficient is staring at you in the face and taunting you that you're making 0 use of it.

Yes, stacking STR/other melee stats gives better DPS returns than stacking spell damage/other caster stats, but the fact that the option is even there only serves to confuse less knowledgeable people and unnecessarily complicate stat weighings for those that ARE in the know.
#922SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Valerys
Bellator's spreadsheet needs to be updated with this change. I suspect it will cause some changes on relative item values...
Also, armor pen might become a useful stat for us now with CS being fully weapon damage.
#923SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sorry
With neither the dps plate from Zul'Aman nor from the badge vendor having any intellect on it I hope they come up with something to counter constant mana starvation.
#924SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Bellator's spreadsheet needs to be updated with this change. I suspect it will cause some changes on relative item values...
Also, armor pen might become a useful stat for us now with CS being fully weapon damage.
Haven't seen Bellator post much lately, but if you want to help yourself do it : (in Excel)

(Note: this is using v23_2.3. If you're using an older version, the cell numbers might be different)

Format->Sheet->Unhide->DPS Calc
Go down to CS section->Average Hit(Pre Buffs)

Current Formula is :
=IF(Character!A100=0,0,((C6*C4+(Character!F16/14)*3.3)*(100%+2%*Character!A95)+0.4*SUM(Character!M16:N16)+IF(K22="Yes",18,0))*IF(K2 3="Yes",105%,100%))

Change it to :
=IF(Character!A100=0,0,((C6*C4+(Character!F16/14)*3.3)*110%*(100%+2%*Character!A95)+IF(K22="Yes",18,0))*IF(K23="Yes",105%,100%))
#925SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by nero View Post
sorry for the noobish question and i've done some looking but this is mainly for the Ret pally in our guild who i trying very hard to proove to us hes viable.

Should a ret pally be using rank 2 consecrate on a single target when dpsing? hell, should he be using consecrate at all?

My gut tells me no.~ =[
Rank 2 or rank one works depending on his mana situation. Is this on a boss or a trash pull?
#926SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Isn't CS already full physical damage? With the 40% of holy spell damage being applied to the melee attack as melee damage? Because I only see 1 number pop when I use CS even when I do wear like 23 spell damage ;p
And it seems to not be affected by JotC's spell damage anyway? Or am I missing something?
#927SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Jotc on a target gives c-Strike a +100 or so bonus. The attack is just normalized, so for most people the end result is a Cstrike that still hits for slightly less than a white hit.

As a side note, where do we stand on Haste for ret nowadays? Wasn't it determined that the proc rate for Command specifically wasn't hindered by +haste?

I ask because I find myself wearing a matched set of Band of Devastation, and even with the haste nerf they're quite dandy items.
#928SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
Haste will always be better for us SoB user. It's assumed (or so I believe) that SoC works the same way that over procs do regarding hast, and will proc less par hit if you are to attack faster. But since much dmg come from white attacks, hast is nowhere near bad, even for you allys. And it's *the* stat as ret BE.

Regarding the test I've been doing in Blasted, they were white attacks only, sorry I forgot to specify so.
#929SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
There have been updates for the upcoming patchnotes:

Paladins
- Crusader Strike - Now deals 110% weapon damage and refreshes all Judgements on target.
- Sanctified Judgement (All ranks) - Seal's mana cost returned changed from 50% to 80%

Interesting point in my opinion, espacially for Hordepaladins. Whereas for Alliancepaladins this could become a nerf.


Additionally I have a question concerning the new libram (giving 200AP after judging SoC):
Did any hordepaladin test this libram with SoB? Maybe it proccs off that attack, too and it is simply a wrong tooltip.
Maybe this is something to test on a testrealm.
#930SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
There have been updates for the upcoming patchnotes:

Paladins
- Crusader Strike - Now deals 110% weapon damage and refreshes all Judgements on target.
- Sanctified Judgement (All ranks) - Seal's mana cost returned changed from 50% to 80%

Interesting point in my opinion, espacially for Hordepaladins. Whereas for Alliancepaladins this could become a nerf.
Most of the posts in the last page have been about this

Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
Additionally I have a question concerning the new libram (giving 200AP after judging SoC):
Did any hordepaladin test this libram with SoB? Maybe it proccs off that attack, too and it is simply a wrong tooltip.
Maybe this is something to test on a testrealm.
It doesn't work with SoB.
#931SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Could some BE Paladin confirm JoB performance if it cuts trough Rogue CloS? JoC is resisted hence supporting the spell hit mechanics, but how about JoB? I have never seen WWS where JoB would receive any full resists where I get ~20% full resist for JoC.
#932SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
Tested just now: 100% of the JoB went through the rogue's cloak... That is, the 3 times we tested it. I'm gonna keep it up, but I'll be surprised to be so lucky 3 times in a row (I got no +hit spell at all btw).
#933SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
It represents wasted potential. As Muphrid once put it, "people don't want to know they're good, they want to know they're the best they can be." That 43% coefficient is staring at you in the face and taunting you that you're making 0 use of it.

Yes, stacking STR/other melee stats gives better DPS returns than stacking spell damage/other caster stats, but the fact that the option is even there only serves to confuse less knowledgeable people and unnecessarily complicate stat weighings for those that ARE in the know.
So?


Originally CS gained 100% weapon damage (3.3 seconds of AP DPS, or 23.6% of total AP) and 40% of +dmg

The new CS does 110% weapon damage (unknown if normalized to 3.3).


The new +dmg scaling trades 40% +dmg scaling for 10% weapon damage (10% base weapon damage and .3x seconds of AP DPS) At most levels of gear using JotC (219 +Holy), the new CS will do less overall damage. If there was so much wasted potential, I'd have expected to see a damage increase.


Besides, prioritizing AP vs. +dmg for raid DPS has always been easy. Get tier gear, slot +Str gems and enchant +str where possible.


The main advantage we gained from the CS NERF is that it opens them up to give us a generous AP->+dmg talent. The way our abilities work now, such a talent would be equal to +30% AP, which might be a tad overpowered. Remove +dmg scaling from our main AP DPS abilities, and then they can give us a decent coefficient that can power our +dmg abilities when we want to use those (in AP gear).



Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Tested just now: 100% of the JoB went through the rogue's cloak... That is, the 3 times we tested it. I'm gonna keep it up, but I'll be surprised to be so lucky 3 times in a row (I got no +hit spell at all btw).
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Could some BE Paladin confirm JoB performance if it cuts trough Rogue CloS? JoC is resisted hence supporting the spell hit mechanics, but how about JoB? I have never seen WWS where JoB would receive any full resists where I get ~20% full resist for JoC.
The tests prove that JoB is not based on spell hit; but that doesn't prove that JoB is based on melee hit. There are zero reported full resists even for non +hit capped BElf paladins.


Based on the fact that there are *zero* reported JoB (full) resists, the conclusion is that JoB doesn't check for resists at all.
#934SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
At most levels of gear using JotC (219 +Holy), the new CS will do less overall damage. If there was so much wasted potential, I'd have expected to see a damage increase.
That is not strictly true.

Existing :
Base CS Damage = Avg Weapon Damage + (AP/14)*3.3 +40% of Spelldamage

New :
Base CS Damage = [Avg Weapon Damage +(AP/14)*3.3]*110%

For 219 spell damage, let's see at what Avg Weapon Damage these are equal.

APF(Attack Power factor)=AP*3.3/14

X+APF+219*0.4=1.1X+1.1APF
=> 0.1X+0.1APF=87.6
=> X+APF=876

For my weapon, World Breaker with 464 average damage, the required AP to even out is 1747. Standard Raid Buffed AP is usually above 3K.

And as AP and Weapon scales, this will only get better, and that is what we've wanted all along.
#935SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
That is not strictly true.

Existing :
Base CS Damage = Avg Weapon Damage + (AP/14)*3.3 +40% of Spelldamage

New :
Base CS Damage = [Avg Weapon Damage +(AP/14)*3.3]*110%

For 219 spell damage, let's see at what Avg Weapon Damage these are equal.

APF(Attack Power factor)=AP*3.3/14

X+APF+219*0.4=1.1X+1.1APF
=> 0.1X+0.1APF=87.6
=> X+APF=876

For my weapon, World Breaker with 464 average damage, the required AP to even out is 1747. Standard Raid Buffed AP is usually above 3K.

And as AP and Weapon scales, this will only get better, and that is what we've wanted all along.
EDIT:
Using T4, you gain 160 +dmg. (*if* you geared yourself with warrior gear with no +dmg, yes, you'd see a damage increase in most cases, depending on weapon)


That adds 64 damage to CS. 219 +Holy damage from JotC adds 87.6 damage to CS.

Let's give this T4 paladin a World Breaker. 10% of weapon damage means he gains 46.4 damage. How much AP to break even?

64 + 87.6 = 150.6 damage lost from removal of +dmg scaling
464 * 10% = 46.4 damage gained from 10% weapon damage
X * 3.3 * 10% = X * 0.33 damage gained from AP, where X is your AP DPS.


The AP we break even at is where X * 0.33 = (150.6 - 46.4) = 104.2 damage

X = 315.8 AP DPS, which would require 4421 AP


I don't know how much raid buffs can add to your AP, but I find it hard to believe that a T4 paladin using a World Breaker will have 4421 AP.

Last edited by Fiola : 11/22/07 at 2:10 PM.
#936SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Originally CS gained 100% weapon damage (3.3 seconds of AP DPS, or 23.6% of total AP) and 40% of +dmg

The new CS does 110% weapon damage (unknown if normalized to 3.3).

The new +dmg scaling trades 40% +dmg scaling for 10% weapon damage (10% base weapon damage and .3x seconds of AP DPS) At most levels of gear using JotC (219 +Holy), the new CS will do less overall damage. If there was so much wasted potential, I'd have expected to see a damage increase.
To paraphrase a Blue post from a few days ago, the devs are in the process of changing Retribution Paladins (and kitty Druids) so that they use their "pure" counterpart's gear more (Warriors and Rogues respectively). This change just seems to be another step in that direction. Yeah, its a mild damage nerf for the moment, but I'm fairly confident that something big is coming soon that will justify it in the end. All the signs are pointing that way; removing spell damage from the season 3 gear, changing Crusader Strike to be based off pure melee stats rather than a mix of it and spell damage, etc.
#937SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
To paraphrase a Blue post from a few days ago, the devs are in the process of changing Retribution Paladins (and kitty Druids) so that they use their "pure" counterpart's gear more (Warriors and Rogues respectively). This change just seems to be another step in that direction. Yeah, its a mild damage nerf for the moment, but I'm fairly confident that something big is coming soon that will justify it in the end. All the signs are pointing that way; removing spell damage from the season 3 gear, changing Crusader Strike to be based off pure melee stats rather than a mix of it and spell damage, etc.
I'm content to live with any amount of buffs/nerfs as long as I still get to play a Ret paladin. (The day it becomes a cheap MS warrior knockoff is when I switch specs/classes)


But I'm not going to be told, "this is a great buff for the class" when simple theorycraft shows that it's a straight up nerf.


It's a nerf (at least for some cases) that prepares us for a (potential) buff. That's great if we get such a buff. But in of itself, it's a nerf. The math shows it. Telling me otherwise makes me wonder if the other person understands the mechanics of the class or if he's using a different language where nerfs are buffs and buffs are nerfs.
#938SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Strifen
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post

But I'm not going to be told, "this is a great buff for the class" when simple theorycraft shows that it's a straight up nerf.

It's a buff for some ret paladins, like the ones with... 0 spell damage

This is going to be a big increase in CS damage for most BE paladins that don't have any spell damage at all (in a raid setting for sure).

The fact is they still are in the process of changing all our other abilities, it makes no sense for them to have spell damage effect some of our attacks and some not effecting it at all.

I personally think one of the biggest pushes to do this is to get us going on the exact same loot that 2h warriors need which is (str/crit). They just cant reasonably itemize spell damage ret gear well in raids because, well. Most guilds don't even have one ret paladin and a guild has one ret paladin at most so they cant pollute loot tables with +spell dmg/+str/crit gear because raid guilds are going to get screwed if they keep getting repeat drops of it.

Ret paladins are pretty all over the place right now though, really hope blizzard just comes out and says what direction they want to take us already.

Last edited by Strifen : 11/22/07 at 2:44 PM.
#939SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I'm content to live with any amount of buffs/nerfs as long as I still get to play a Ret paladin. (The day it becomes a cheap MS warrior knockoff is when I switch specs/classes)

But I'm not going to be told, "this is a great buff for the class" when simple theorycraft shows that it's a straight up nerf.

It's a nerf (at least for some cases) that prepares us for a (potential) buff. That's great if we get such a buff. But in of itself, it's a nerf. The math shows it. Telling me otherwise makes me wonder if the other person understands the mechanics of the class or if he's using a different language where nerfs are buffs and buffs are nerfs.
With all due respect, this is not the "Fiola gets to complain because he is going to be using similar stats to a warrior" thread. I encourage you to go make that crap on the Blizzard forums.

I said myself that this is a nerf. The math proves that in most cases it is. Unless you're already wearing pure warrior gear (granted, most of the ret pallys in the world are already) your CS damage will decrease a little. I'm not arguing with that at all. But it is in no way so large as to warrant a "this is the end of retribution" crap. Changes like this take time. The devs have to reitemize. They have to rebalance. They have to test every minute change they make to anything in the game, and any sort of AP < SD talent or changing the entire Paladin combat system to work off melee stats (the two possible outcomes I can see coming from this) is a pretty damn large change. I would much prefer to see small changes like this every patch, even if they are small nerfs for the short term, then the complete lack of anything we had for the two years preceeding 2.3.

And I think I've proved at least a few times that I know about my class. Grow up.
#940SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
With all due respect, this is not the "Fiola gets to complain because he is going to be using similar stats to a warrior" thread. I encourage you to go make that crap on the Blizzard forums.

I said myself that this is a nerf. The math proves that in most cases it is. Unless you're already wearing pure warrior gear (granted, most of the ret pallys in the world are already) your CS damage will decrease a little. I'm not arguing with that at all. But it is in no way so large as to warrant a "this is the end of retribution" crap. Changes like this take time. The devs have to reitemize. They have to rebalance. They have to test every minute change they make to anything in the game, and any sort of AP < SD talent or changing the entire Paladin combat system to work off melee stats (the two possible outcomes I can see coming from this) is a pretty damn large change. I would much prefer to see small changes like this every patch, even if they are small nerfs for the short term, then the complete lack of anything we had for the two years preceeding 2.3.

And I think I've proved at least a few times that I know about my class. Grow up.
Where have I complained about using Str/Crit as damage stats? I do mind if Ret paladin ability use ends up being [CS every 6 seconds, SoC, JoC every 8 seconds] or worse, [CS every 6 seconds, SoC every 30 seconds], but we aren't at that point ... yet.


But where am I complaining that this change is the "end to retribution" or that we all need to mass quit the class because it's hopeless? I'm showing how this change is a nerf with pretty easily attained conditions (Using tier gear + JotC).


You yourself agree that it's a damage nerf.


Great! That was *my entire point*. You argue the nerf is necessary for future buffs. Great. I can be patient and watch what happens - that's what I resigned myself to do after reading Eyonix's post.


Have you anything else to add to the discussion?
#941SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 zeidrich
According to the stats on: Deepforge Broadaxe - Items - World of Warcraft

29 STR = 34 spell damage.

Before the change:
34 damage = 13.6 bonus damage on CS
29 STR = 35 STR after kings/DS = 70 AP
70/14 = 5 * 3.3 = 16.5 bonus damage on CS

After the change:
29 STR = 16.5*1.1 = 18.15 bonus damage

Simple theorycraft shows that this is a buff IMO Fiola. The only reason it doesn't look like a buff is because our Tier sets are incorrectly itemized.

Anyways, I think your calcs are misleading.

You have 379 +damage, that = 152 bonus damage.
(152/3.3)*14 = 643 AP to make up for it.

In that, if you took a paladin right now, removed all his spell damage gear and stopped judging crusader, he would need an additional 643 AP to make up the difference. = 321 buffed strength = 268 unbuffed strength.

Now take the average hit, I'm pulling a CS hit from one of our pallies that decided to go ret for the day in a TK raid yesterday. He is typically holy but has put together a minor hodgepodge of ret gear and is using a BS weapon. His average melee hit on VR is 977. Now calculating the boss's average damage reduction over the course of the fight, I look at our tanks Revenge hits. Against an unarmored target they should hit on average for 460, they were hitting for average of 287. That puts him in the ballpark of 35% DR. That puts his average unarmored hit at ~1500.

So now add the additional 10% of your average hit to that number, and we now have to make up 2 bonus damage.

That is to say, even if you are currently geared up in a fairly high spell damage set, (and even t6 only has 175 spell damage on it) as long as your CS are hitting somewhere over 1000 damage typically, you probably wont even see much difference.

Simply, the easiest way to tell how much of a difference you will see would be to parse a night's worth of swings. Take your melee hits, and compare them with CS hits. If your melee swings*110% are lower than your CS swings, thats about how much of a hit you will take in your current gear.

In looking at Cromfel's WWS that was posted earlier:
WWS
His Average melee hit (non glancing) was 2605
His Average CS hit was 2776

With the change, his new average CS hit would be 2865.5

In his circumstance it was a fairly hefty buff.
In low gear circumstances I think it will be about neutral.

Only in extreme situations where you gear specifically towards spell damage to the exclusion of AP related stats will you notice much of a nerf, and even then, I can't see it being more than 5-10%. But if you're gearing in that fashion, you're wasting a lot of potential anyways.
#942SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
According to the stats on: Deepforge Broadaxe - Items - World of Warcraft

29 STR = 34 spell damage.

Before the change:
34 damage = 13.6 bonus damage on CS
29 STR = 35 STR after kings/DS = 70 AP
70/14 = 5 * 3.3 = 16.5 bonus damage on CS

After the change:
29 STR = 16.5*1.1 = 18.15 bonus damage

Simple theorycraft shows that this is a buff IMO Fiola. The only reason it doesn't look like a buff is because our Tier sets are incorrectly itemized.
Per iLevel point, AP is more efficient at increasing damage than +dmg. However, the +dmg on our Tier gear is "cheaper". On that gear, you're not trading 34 +dmg for 29 Str.


For example, look at how our Vindicator items were changed.
Bracers:
-22 +dmg
+10 Str

Belt:
-30 +dmg
+13 Str

Boots
-30 +dmg
+13 Str
The only difference between the two versions of those items was +dmg and Str. If you look at those trades, do they yield increased damage on CS? (Compare old items using 40% +dmg CS, to new items using 110% Weapon Damage CS)


Anyways, I think your calcs are misleading.

You have 379 +damage, that = 152 bonus damage.
(152/3.3)*14 = 643 AP to make up for it.

In that, if you took a paladin right now, removed all his spell damage gear and stopped judging crusader, he would need an additional 643 AP to make up the difference. = 321 buffed strength = 268 unbuffed strength.
That number is for trading +dmg for AP on gear in order to make up for the loss of +dmg.


For the new 110% weapon damage CS to be higher damage than the 40% +dmg CS, we're looking at the trade:
110% Weapon Damage Vs. 100% Weapon Damage + 40% +Holy

or

10% Weapon Damage Vs. 40% +Holy

or

10% * [Weapon Damage + 3.3 AP DPS] > 40% +Holy

For the specific gear point you used, 379 +dmg (152 bonus CS damage), your (buffed) average weapon damage has to be >= 1520 before ALL modifiers. (Approximation that ignores normalization)

This is because all of those modifiers (Crit%, Vengeance, iSanctity Aura, Crusade, etc) affect both versions of CS equally.

[EDIT ADD]
To use your WWS numbers, your math has to include *all* relevant modifiers, which affect both versions of CS equally anyways - in short, the modifiers add extraneous math that cancels each other out in the end.
[/EDIT]


Using Cromfel's character sheet data, his average weapon damage is 1160 right now (at 2122 AP). For his average weapon damage to exceed 1520, he needs 1326 more AP when fully buffed, or 3450 AP total.


That might be achievable for him, but I don't think most paladins can hit that gear point. (Cromfel also has 236 +dmg, too, which raises the break-even AP point higher)

Last edited by Fiola : 11/22/07 at 4:29 PM.
#943SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
My haste question dissapeared under this!

Was or was it not determined at the last that Haste did not negatively affect the Seal of Command proc? Not hearsay, but what the actual testing revealed.
#944SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
According to the stats on: Deepforge Broadaxe - Items - World of Warcraft

29 STR = 34 spell damage.

Before the change:
34 damage = 13.6 bonus damage on CS
29 STR = 35 STR after kings/DS = 70 AP
70/14 = 5 * 3.3 = 16.5 bonus damage on CS

After the change:
29 STR = 16.5*1.1 = 18.15 bonus damage

Simple theorycraft shows that this is a buff IMO Fiola. The only reason it doesn't look like a buff is because our Tier sets are incorrectly itemized.

Anyways, I think your calcs are misleading.

You have 379 +damage, that = 152 bonus damage.
(152/3.3)*14 = 643 AP to make up for it.
I think you both have some merits to your arguments. Thorene, you excluded the way that stats exponentially increase in cost on items, so you really should be looking at an equation more like:

29 strength = 34 spell damage = 19 strength and 22 spell damage

For the last of the three stat spreads, you'd be looking at 8.8 CS damage from spell damage, and 10.84 damage from strength (total of 19.64 damage). So in a case of mixed itemization, like on our Tiered sets, this is a slight theoretical damage decrease.

Now all that being said, in the real world very few Ret Paladins wear Tiered sets in favor of a higher strength setup (sometimes for social reasons, sometimes for pragmatic reasons). So realistically those of us who go spell damage free are going to see a damage increase from this change. I personally am going to see my on paper damage go up by between 1-2% when 2.3.2 goes live, because my Ret set will only 34 spell damage on it once Season 3 goes live. And if we get even more buffs on top of that in later patches, then that's okay in my books.
#945SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
The haste question was already talked about... You will get the same PPM regardless of haste rating, and thus SOC does the same DPS wether you have 0 haste rating or 1000. Therefore haste isn't as powerful a plain +% DPS increase (unlike for example for mages/locks) because it's only affecting your normal attack DPS. How good it is compared to other stats need to be calculated, but since SoB does gain DPS from haste obviously haste for horde > haste for alliance.
#946SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
If you look at the graph in the spreadsheet, you can modify it to work for SoB or SoC. For SoB, its pretty much on par with str point for point, although for alliance it was quite low in value.
#947SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0grover
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
This is because all of those modifiers (Crit%, Vengeance, iSanctity Aura, Crusade, etc) affect both versions of CS equally.
The new CS will benefit slightly more from modifiers than the old CS because the damage from JotC does not get increased by modifiers.
#948SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The AP we break even at is where X * 0.33 = (150.6 - 46.4) = 104.2 damage

X = 315.8 AP DPS, which would require 4421 AP
4421AP?
Are you counting in the weapon's damage range as well?

You will need less AP to break even with a higher top-end weapon.

A Paladin with Torch of the Damned will need much less than a Paladin using World Breaker.


Does anyone else remember those "leaked" patch notes from before 2.3 was on the PTR? The 110% Crusader Strike was one of those changes. Call me crazy, but those notes may have had more truth behind them than originally thought.
#949SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Handled

I question how long before we see the AP/SD Talent and where it's going to sit at.

Aside from that has anyone started working on a Gear DPS Spreadsheet? So far instead of using a Spreadsheet I'm using itemvalues addon but the weighted values are questionable as it's hard to give a rating to Haste that falls in line with Crit or Strength.
#950SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
4421AP?
Are you counting in the weapon's damage range as well?
That example by Fiola was with 160 +dmg from gear. Almost all alliance paladins who use tier sets will lose some damage. You need full warrior gear to start seeing results, and that's where they appear to be heading. We'll have to wait and hope they reitemize tier sets.
#951SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Handled
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Could some BE Paladin confirm JoB performance if it cuts trough Rogue CloS? JoC is resisted hence supporting the spell hit mechanics, but how about JoB? I have never seen WWS where JoB would receive any full resists where I get ~20% full resist for JoC.
#952SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Valerys
JoB is weird. For mobs that have spell reflect (such as the melee naga in SSC), it goes right through it. However, if a mobs is completely immune to spells (like those flying worms in Karazhan after Curator), it is also immune to JoB.
#953SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
I have a question concerning the offtank abilities of a retri paladin. Is there a possibility to tank parts of addwaves in Hyjal (not the whole but some low mobs of those) in a way compareable to Furywarriors with 1h+Shield? My guild refuses to use Retripaladins over a second offensive warrior due to the fact that the warrior has the ability to use his shield and 1h to offtank.
#954SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Retri paladins are like 5 times better than fury warriors tanking trash in Hyjal. I think your guild is just biased towards warriors.
#955SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
JoB is weird. For mobs that have spell reflect (such as the melee naga in SSC), it goes right through it. However, if a mobs is completely immune to spells (like those flying worms in Karazhan after Curator), it is also immune to JoB.
This is true, but they ARE hurt by SoB. But i agree Job is wierd.
#956SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
About saying that paladins using tier sets will lose damage, aren't they already subpar anyway to paladins using warrior gear? Why are you using your tier set in the firstplace?
#957SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
About saying that paladins using tier sets will lose damage, aren't they already subpar anyway to paladins using warrior gear? Why are you using your tier set in the firstplace?
Look at the 2 piece bonuses for either tier 5 or tier 6.

There is your answer.
#958SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
So assuming those set bonuses are actually worth using, as in the 2pT5 is still good when you have warrior gear from T6 instances, then maybe you'll have enough spell damage for the change to actually be a DPS loss, and even then I didn't go through the math but see every post saying something else about it being a DPS loss VS a DPS gain for someone who actually has that much spell damage.

All in all I do hope they make tier gear useful for more than the 2-piece set bonuses... I mean that's what tier gear is meant for. Wether they let paladins gain more from spell damage or remove the damage from the gear, I don't care, as long as it's actually good gear.
#959SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
I have a question concerning the offtank abilities of a retri paladin. Is there a possibility to tank parts of addwaves in Hyjal (not the whole but some low mobs of those) in a way compareable to Furywarriors with 1h+Shield? My guild refuses to use Retripaladins over a second offensive warrior due to the fact that the warrior has the ability to use his shield and 1h to offtank.
I just yesterday tanked all Hyjal trash as Retribution Paladin, I only have Redoubt from prot as I went for hit talents. Worked just fine. Then I just swap to DPS gear on boss. I think its plain stupid to not use Paladin, its so much of more dps when mages/warlocks can go pretty much all out AoE after killing few mobs singletarget. Only problem you have is if your other tanks dont know their job and let the Abominations stun you while you aoe tank. It is pretty much instakill no matter who aoe tanks when that happens (Disclaimer: Ofc it doesnt always happen, but its likely to cause problems).
#960SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gwen
I feel tanking waves in hyjal to be more benefitial to the raid than actually trying to kill something. The fury warrior running around can mostly grab 1 - 2 mobs on him while a retribution or holy paladin in proper tanking gear can grab whole pacts letting your MT's focusing on bigger targets like abominations. I'm quite pleased with the results of tanking with retribution sofar, I haven't tried it yet in 5 mans and am wondering if someone has experiance tanking heroics as retribution without improved righteous fury.

While clearing the second part of Black Temple yesterday I noticed something really annoying, JoW was pushed of on almost every boss from the debuff list. The change with our mages all respeccing fire is the cause I believe, with each individual taking up 2 extra debuff slots (Fireball dot, Ignite) compared to arcane pre 2.3. If I remember correctly blizzard implemented a priority system for debuffs and somehow I'm left to believe JoW is really low on it, beeing pushed of almost all the time when the debuff limit is reached.
#961SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
4421AP?
Are you counting in the weapon's damage range as well?

You will need less AP to break even with a higher top-end weapon.

A Paladin with Torch of the Damned will need much less than a Paladin using World Breaker.


Does anyone else remember those "leaked" patch notes from before 2.3 was on the PTR? The 110% Crusader Strike was one of those changes. Call me crazy, but those notes may have had more truth behind them than originally thought.
The AP we break even at is where X * 0.33 = (150.6 - 46.4) = 104.2 damage

46.4 damage, using the average weapon damage of World Breaker * 10%.

The Torch of the Damned has 495.5 damage, which would gain 49.6 damage from the change.


That shaves the breakeven point down to 4285 AP. Closer, but since we were looking at a T4 paladin (now using a BT weapon?), I don't think he/she'll have that.


Also, for 0 +dmg from gear but using JotC:
JotC adds 219 * .4 = 87.6 damage

Gorehowl: (87.6-43.2) / .33 * 14 = 1884 AP
World Breaker: (87.6 - 46.4) / .33 * 14 = 1748 AP
Torch of the Damned: (87.6 - 49.6) / .33 * 14 = 1612 AP


I know I break 2k AP raid buffed pretty easily (BS+BoM) in T4/S1 gear (while not "properly" stacking AP), so as Eyonix said - those wearing warrior gear got buffed - Which is pretty much the main idea of the itemization fix.


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
About saying that paladins using tier sets will lose damage, aren't they already subpar anyway to paladins using warrior gear? Why are you using your tier set in the firstplace?
Depends on ability use (/cough SoB) and raid buffs like WF totem.

But honestly, we just got buffed in 2.3. A small damage adjustment downwards isn't a big deal.


Anyways, merry Black Friday looting for those of you in US. = D
#962SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Valerys
Originally Posted by Gwen View Post
While clearing the second part of Black Temple yesterday I noticed something really annoying, JoW was pushed of on almost every boss from the debuff list. The change with our mages all respeccing fire is the cause I believe, with each individual taking up 2 extra debuff slots (Fireball dot, Ignite) compared to arcane pre 2.3. If I remember correctly blizzard implemented a priority system for debuffs and somehow I'm left to believe JoW is really low on it, beeing pushed of almost all the time when the debuff limit is reached.
I've seen this as well. However, I found that as long as I meticulously refreshed all judgements with CS every 6 seconds, they were not pushed off (probably since they get dragged back to the top of debuff list upon refreshing).

Incidentally, the ideal SoB gear list I put together some pages back still holds true after the CS change, with the exception that [Signet of Primal Wrath] now outranks [Band of Devastation] by a teensy weensy amount (0.01 dps).
#963SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Axira
Someone told me this just a while ago, as so called leaked 2.4 changes:

*NEW SPELL* Blessing of Defiance - Increase target's block value by 148.
*NEW SPELL* Seal Of Protection - Temporarily increase total Paladin's hit points by 1200. Unleashing this seal will judge an enemy,decreasing all damage done by judged target by 5%. (3 minute cooldown)
And I noticed that it was part of a previous leak as well, which has been half true so far on 2.2.2 testing done, PvP details, blue posts.,

That would probably convince alot of guilds into taking along at least 1 ret paladin to keep that judgement on the boss, and at the same time it would also be a nice new skill for tankadins.
#964SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
Again to the tanking question (sorry for messing up the thread):
Would it be a good idea for a horde retri paladin to get S3 armor (getting arenapoints is not a problem), filling the rest-slots up with the pve warrior epics from bt/hyjal and taking t6 for tanking purposes (so taking t6-tank-version).
Or which Tankitems do you use for not getting 1hit in Hyjal trash situations? Karaequip? Thanks in advance for your helpful answers.
#965SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Axira
Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
Again to the tanking question (sorry for messing up the thread):
Would it be a good idea for a horde retri paladin to get S3 armor (getting arenapoints is not a problem), filling the rest-slots up with the pve warrior epics from bt/hyjal and taking t6 for tanking purposes (so taking t6-tank-version).
Or which Tankitems do you use for not getting 1hit in Hyjal trash situations? Karaequip? Thanks in advance for your helpful answers.
Yes and no.. Since afaik Blizz allready confirmed pretty much that they were changing T4, T5 and T6 itemisation for the retribution set... as in removing all the SD stats. Which would probably also mean that the PvE-sets will become better for PvE purposes then the PvP sets. (Just like it is for all other classes, and how it should be.) (Source: WoW Forums -> Where is my ZA gear?)

But besides that we've no idea if Sunwell will include a new Tier-set as well, but at least we can be sure that the random plate drops there will be better then the S3 arena gear.
#966SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Habaka
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Tested just now: 100% of the JoB went through the rogue's cloak... That is, the 3 times we tested it. I'm gonna keep it up, but I'll be surprised to be so lucky 3 times in a row (I got no +hit spell at all btw).
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
JoB is weird. For mobs that have spell reflect (such as the melee naga in SSC), it goes right through it. However, if a mobs is completely immune to spells (like those flying worms in Karazhan after Curator), it is also immune to JoB.
It goes through CloS and Spell Reflect, since it's counted as melee, but it does not work on the little wyrm thingies at KZ because the mobs are immune to Magical damage... in this case, holy. It's not the "melee" judgement, but the spell school of it
#967SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 zeidrich
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Only problem you have is if your other tanks dont know their job and let the Abominations stun you while you aoe tank. It is pretty much instakill no matter who aoe tanks when that happens.
And if you use free action potions, even that is not an issue.
#968SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
Which gear do you use for trashtanking? Is ZA and Karaequip enough? Or should it be much more?
#969SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
Which gear do you use for trashtanking? Is ZA and Karaequip enough? Or should it be much more?
I can tank entire ghoul waves in my Kara tanking gear without too much trouble, and can easily single tank in my healing gear. The only mobs that you really have to worry about are the Aboms and Necromancers.
#970SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Arelae
Search is a pain, so i'll ask: How powerful compared to some of the higher end trinkets is the Crusade deck, and will it still be very good post CS adjustment patch in 2.3.2?
#971SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Axira
Originally Posted by Arelae View Post
Search is a pain, so i'll ask: How powerful compared to some of the higher end trinkets is the Crusade deck, and will it still be very good post CS adjustment patch in 2.3.2?
It's pretty safe to assume that they'll be removing the SD requirement from all abilities in a future patch. With their confirmed plans for ret paladins to be needing the exact same stats as DPS warriors.

Removing the SD-part from CS and converting it into AP, strength or weaponstats is just the first of many to come.
So SD trinkets will most likely become useless in the near future.
#972SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Ok, it's been 2 weeks since Bellator last posted anything here. Is there anyone brave enough to maintain the dps sheet, add the new items and update the skills? That'd be an awesome help for the rest of us excel noobs.
#973SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
I'm getting my last vortex to craft my Lionheart Executioner. In light of this new Crusader Strike, should I enchant it with Executioner or Mongoose?
#974SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Some people claim that executioner for a blood elf is going to be superior in 2.3.2, but I have the most recent version of the spreadsheet and both mongoose and savagery top it by a significant margin.
#975SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Some people claim that executioner for a blood elf is going to be superior in 2.3.2, but I have the most recent version of the spreadsheet and both mongoose and savagery top it by a significant margin.
From my noncomprehensive testings of executioner, I've been getting 25-33% uptimes, giving around -1 to +4 dps compared with savagery. This is in theory though since I have no clue if bellator's spreadsheet is counting 70Ap vs 210-277 armor penetration correctly.
#976SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Well from most of my math, mongoose is about 10 dps superior to savagery, which is marginally superior to executioner. End result is that executioner is not the best, imo. I'll be slapping mongoose on my new weapon when it drops.
#977SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
if Mongoose indeed is ~10dps better than savagery in topend gear (lets say total of 17(sava, bellator)+10dps gain as a hypothesis), Executioner would need to give 360 armor penetration over time (again, bellators sheet). This comes to 42% uptime, needing 1.68 procs per minute. This is, atleast with seal of blood and windfury not achievable. Testing this far has shown the ppm to be roughly 1~1.2 depending on windfury.

Oh well, atleast there's always the "wtf" effect you get in PvP when it procs against a clothie
#978SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
Well, that's unfortunate - I was hoping to play around with some armor penetration.

How about on a weapon like Cataclysm's Edge? I know that ArP becomes more effective with higher stacking of it.
#979SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
The tests i've been doing have been performed with cataclysms edge + grips of silent justice and Shady dealers, giving 685 ArP.
Adding 1000 armor penetration to the spreadsheet "out of the blue", the effectivenes of Executioner at 30% uptime (1.2ppm) increases to 23 dps gain. Savagery with same set is 19. If we assume mongoose stays as a constant savagery dps+10, there willl be a breakpoint where Executioner might pull ahead. In this example, giving 1000 armor penetration "out of the blue", increased the effectiveness of executioner by roughly 3 dps.

Take the calculation with a grain of salt though, since it is somewhat based on the spreadsheet and I haven't performed any calculations on mongoose in practise.
#980SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Your calculations are wrong, Savagery is a constant 70 AP so it's a constant DPS upgrade. Moongoose scales as you upgrade your gear so the difference between the two increases with gear.
#981SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
I'd say that executioner would probably scale a lot more as you add more Armour Penetration to your gear.
Especially if you consider all the other armour reducing debuffs around, ie sunder, faerie fire, CoR...

Might be the set you pull out especially for the clothie boss fights where enough of the ArP would put them on effectively 0 DR. ie Solarian, Shade of Aran, etc
#982SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
So with 5x Sunder, Fairie Fire, and CoR, would a Cataclysm's Edge with Executioner outdps a Torch of the Damned with Mongoose?

If someone could run a number crunch I'd be much oblidged, as I am currently at work and unable to.
#983SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
So with 5x Sunder, Fairie Fire, and CoR, would a Cataclysm's Edge with Executioner outdps a Torch of the Damned with Mongoose?

If someone could run a number crunch I'd be much oblidged, as I am currently at work and unable to.
It depends what boss you're talking about. Some bosses like Solarian are "squishy" and have low armor vales, some like Noobreaver have very high armor. The closer to zero you take their armor the more effective armor penetration is.

You also shouldn't compare Cataclysm's Edge to TotD since they are both have completely different stats. CE has a ton more Attack Power and a higher base DPS than TotD, but its topend is much lower, so it naturally falls a little behind TotD. If you want a real test you would have to do either CE with Executioner versus CE with Mongoose or TotD with Executioner vs. TotD with Mongoose.
#984SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Added:

Full item comparison - Author: Nuuga

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Paladin DPS Gear Rankings

How are the items being ranked?
- Currently, this is for Seal of Command Retribution Paladins only. Assuming an 8 (or 10 second depending on talents) damage cycle of normal attacks with SOC and then Judgement of Command and Crusader Strike.
- Based on this attack cycle, a DPS value based on the item's strength, attack power, agility, +hit, +crit and +spell damage are calculated.
- Also relative mob level is taken into account as you can see in the full attack table below.
#985SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
That site needs to have a "max hit" filter, since it rates a lot of items very high even though they have a lot of item points spent on Hit Rating.

And are those values for ArP correct? It's saying that the CE will do more dps than Torch. Seems a little high, given that 1/3 of our dps is Holy.
#986SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
So with 5x Sunder, Fairie Fire, and CoR, would a Cataclysm's Edge with Executioner outdps a Torch of the Damned with Mongoose?

If someone could run a number crunch I'd be much oblidged, as I am currently at work and unable to.
Doing the math with the spreadsheet, applying all of those to the target, I still get mongoose at the lead by a strong margin (as a blood elf using SoB) on both weapons. But I will mention that executioner is less "sucky" on a cataclysms. I really don't feel that armor pen is a good stat for us (at least for now) because we still have a significant portion of our damage as magic.
#987SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aramul
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
That site needs to have a "max hit" filter, since it rates a lot of items very high even though they have a lot of item points spent on Hit Rating.
Make sure you're inputting your stats correctly. If you set your hit rating over the cap, then it will not affect the rankings.
#988SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
I'm putting in 95 hit rating and 3/3 precision (9.02% hit) but it rates Band of the Ranger General over the Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring.

My typical damage output comes out as ~42% melee, ~23% strike, or ~65% physical damage total. So in theory wouldn't there be a point of inflection where ArP becomes more useful than another stat (except Strength, of course)? Especially after the patch when we will have 0 spell damage.

Or will stacking Strength/Crit still be the way to go?
#989SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
I'm too lazy to do the math, but my guess is that the armor pen you would need to have would need to be quite large, enough so that the sacrifice in other stats makes it not worth it at any point. Maybe when WotLK comes out this will change... but as of right now 65% of melee damage doesn't warrant it for me, where I could get str or crit which affects 90+% of my abilities.
#990SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
The way that I see it, having crit at around 25% unbuffed is more enough to keep vengeance always up and from there on.. more strength!!! =D

That being said, my gem choices are usually: +8 str, +4 crit/+4 str, +12 sta and 3mana/5.
#991SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leonti
First, thanks for this great piece on Retri Theorycraft on the net!

I'm actually not sure speccing Imp BoM or Imp SoC, my question is depending on the dps effect of both. I've used the linked DPS Spreadsheet in this Post to calculate the difference between both:

3% Crit through ImpSoc ( self only ) : ~10 dps
~40 AP through ImpBoM ( raid ) : ~10 dps + raid dps increase

I think with ~30% base Crit it isn't necessary, since the 2.3 Patch buff of Vengenance, to stack more personal Crit to ensure Vengenance staying up all the time. So I decided to use Imp BoM.

Any suggestions would be nice.

Greets Leonti aka Celeon

p.s.: Sorry for my cruel english typo ...
#992SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Leonti View Post
I'm actually not sure speccing Imp BoM or Imp SoC, my question is depending on the dps effect of both. I've used the linked DPS Spreadsheet in this Post to calculate the difference between both:

3% Crit through ImpSoc ( self only ) : ~10 dps
~40 AP through ImpBoM ( raid ) : ~10 dps + raid dps increase

I think with ~30% base Crit it isn't necessary, since the 2.3 Patch buff of Vengenance, to stack more personal Crit to ensure Vengenance staying up all the time. So I decided to use Imp BoM.
The 3% crit from SC (or Improved SoC now I suppose) is raid wide. Its your biggest contributor to raid DPS and your second main raid utility. If you're a raiding Ret Pally you have to get it. It turns a "dead" Judgement to everyone except yourself into an incredible DPS buff.

Improved BoM is a "meh" talent IMO. Getting Pursuit of Justice and BoK seems more valuable to me, but that is because my guild runs with a raidbitch holydin who has Improved BoM. Most of the time you'll be single Salving yourself anyway unless you have an excess number of pallys, so it isn't worth the 5 points in most cases.
#993SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leonti
*damn* i swapped Imp SoC and Sanctified Seals Description. My fault ... *vanish* Thanks
#994SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
myth123
Currently Bellator's spreadsheet overvalues Mongoose (constant 1.6% crit > 4.8% crit with 33% up time, same with haste) and undervalues Executioner (constant 280 armor pen < 840 armor pen with 33% up time)

Editted out the bits on windfury cooldown. Apparently I was mistaken about it having an internal cooldown.

Last edited by myth123 : 11/26/07 at 9:53 AM.
#995SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
I'm not sure if I read your post correctly, but unless I'm wrong, Windfury Totem does not have an internal 3sec cooldown. You're thinking of the Windfury weapon buff that is exclusive to Shamans.

Regardless, Haste is not a good stat for Retribution Paladins. Having it only effect ~45% of our total damage makes it a poor stat to stack as opposed to Strength.
#996SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
Currently Bellator's spreadsheet overvalues Mongoose (constant 1.6% crit > 4.8% crit with 33% up time, same with haste) and undervalues Executioner (constant 280 armor pen < 840 armor pen with 33% up time)
Those estimations are pretty reasonable to make. The difference in valuations will be pretty minimal.

Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
The way DST is treated (average value) also contributes to overvaluing mongoose because while DST is up in actual play, a mongoose haste proc will lead to white attacks when windfury is still on cooldown.
There is no WF cooldown.
#997SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mélian-Môrwen
sry

sorry guys....

had the s3 gloves on...false alarm. was wondering why I had 115% cs dmg. already cleared that up. sad panda.

Last edited by Mélian-Môrwen : 11/25/07 at 2:07 PM.
#998SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Valerys
Right now, according to the spreadsheet, DST appears to be the absolute best SoB trinket, well over anything else in value (except maybe Crusade card). I'm wondering if it's really so or if the spreadsheet overvalues it somehow.
#999SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Regardless, Haste is not a good stat for Retribution Paladins.
Not true for Horde.

Having it only effect ~45% of our total damage makes it a poor stat to stack as opposed to Strength.
Dunno, according to WWS around 80% of my damage is physical. Maybe you should stop using SoR
#1000SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
Originally Posted by Ayreon View Post
Dunno, according to WWS around 80% of my damage is physical. Maybe you should stop using SoR
Haste does not effect Crusader Strike's cooldown
#1001SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
Someone on the official forums pointed out that the SJ buff makes Benediction less needed. Here's some math to look at the benefit / talent point:
Base mana costs:
SoC R6 - 280 mana
Judgement - 148 mana (using thottbot values; I've had Benediction for so long I don't know what the base mana cost is)

Total: 428 mana for Seal + Judge, or 267 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds


Benediction:
SoC R6 - 238 mana
Judgement - 125 mana

Total: 363 mana for Seal + Judge, or 227 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds
Benefit: 65 mana saved; 40 MP5 when chain judging; 8 MP5 per talent point


Sanctified Judgement:
SoC R6 - 280 mana
Judgement - 148 mana; +224 mana for SoC R6

Total: 204 mana for Seal + Judge, or 127.5 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds
Benefit: 224 mana saved; 140 MP5 when chain judging; 46.7 MP5 per talent point


Benediction + Sanctified Judgement:
SoC R6 - 238 mana
Judgement - 125 mana; +190.4 mana for SoC R6

Total: 172.6 mana for Seal + Judge, or 108 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds
Benefit: 255.4 mana saved; 159.6 MP5 when chain judging

If we assume we're going to pick up Sanct. Judgement anyways, what is the marginal gain going from SJ alone to SJ + Benediction?

Marginal Gains
SJ benefit: 140 MP5
SJ + Benediction benefit: 160~ MP5
Benediction marginal benefit: 20 MP5, or 4 MP5 per talent point (counting the marginal 5 points spent).


20 MP5 is still nice, but iBoM looks much better in comparison, especially if your fellow paladin raiders tend not to pick up that talent.

Last edited by Fiola : 11/26/07 at 1:56 PM.
#1002SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
Is it sure that when taking Benediction, Sanctified Judgement use the new cost of the spell and not its base cost? I was wondering about that myself... we already have iBoM, so I think I'll go for benediction nonetheless but still, I'd like to be sure about that. Oh and we might want to redo those maths with a judgement every 9 secs. I'll do it tomorow.
#1003SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fiola
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Is it sure that when taking Benediction, Sanctified Judgement use the new cost of the spell and not its base cost? I was wondering about that myself... we already have iBoM, so I think I'll go for benediction nonetheless but still, I'd like to be sure about that. Oh and we might want to redo those maths with a judgement every 9 secs. I'll do it tomorow.
It was true from 2.0 (when SJ was introduced) to 2.2.


I forget what my 2.3 SJ mana returns were, but I'm 90% sure this hasn't changed in 2.3.


If your SJ returns 119 mana when you judge JoC, it's post Benediction. If it returns 140 mana, that's pre-Benediction (and would nullify that entire math post I just did).


Digging up a recent post-patch WWS, average SJ returns for me were 117. This was from using JoW; SoW costs 270 mana, so I'd expect to see 135 SJ ticks if SJ used the pre-Benediction mana cost. 117 is a little off from the expected 115, but it's close enough.
Fiola - WWS

Last edited by Fiola : 11/26/07 at 4:04 PM.
#1004SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Haste does not effect Crusader Strike's cooldown
My WWS logs show 45-49% melee, 24-28% SoB when I'm not using consecrate or exorcism (so JoB and CS are the only other outgoing damage). Claiming that haste only effects 45% of a paladin's outgoing damage seems grossly inaccurate. This is without S3 gloves and with windfury and the DST, but the WF is a reasonable assumption and the DST/gloves aren't going to skew my numbers 25%.
#1005SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Haste does not effect Crusader Strike's cooldown

It does boost your white and SoB damage though .)
#1006SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Luxury
Originally Posted by Ayreon View Post
It does boost your white and SoB damage though .)
But not SoC damage, as shown in previous tests mentioned earlier in the thread, so for alliance paladins haste is not an attractive stat to take in place of crit, which is usually the stat it replaces on most gear.
#1007SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Your numbers were wrong Fiola.

From the PTRs:

Without Benediction
SoC VI: 280
Judgement: 147
Mana Return from SJ: 224
Total Cost: 203
With 5/5 Benediction
SoC VI: 238
Judgement: 124
Mana Return from SJ: 190
Total Cost: 172
All in all its closer to a 19 Mp5 gain from taking 5/5 Benediction (19.375 to be exact) and Judging every 8 seconds. Over the course of a 10 minute fight thats an extra 2325 mana, or 9.8 more Crusader Strikes. Whether thats worth giving up the extra 44 AP is of personal choice. It really comes down to your raid makeup (Do you have enough Pallys to not have to single salv yourself? Do you have a raidbitch Holydin with Improved BoM and BoW? Are you willing to sacrifice BoK/Holy Talents to pick up both?). I personally would always take Benediction. You can never go wrong with more regen.
#1008SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Hey, it's just 1 mana! That's within the realm of a rounding error. = P


As a mana regen nut, I'm inclined to keep my 5 points in benediction, but the math shows SJ cuts the value of Benediction in half. (40~ MP5 for Benediction alone -> 20~ MP5 if paired with SJ)


The actual value of that depends a little on your mana efficiency - 20 mp5 ~= 4 Mana per second; if you have 4 DPM efficiency (for SoC + CS from my last SWS parse), 4 MP5 supports 16 DPS (simplified). How much DPS does 44 AP add?

If we accept that most AP using classes can get 1~ DPS per 10 AP, it takes 4~ iBoM buffs for said talent to break even with Benediction.


For personal use, Benediction still looks like a more worthwhile talent. (I generally bless BoW/BoSalv before BoM, so I wouldn't get any personal benefit from iBoM, either)
#1009SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0JulianMaiev
The tooltip wording is ambiguous, so I'm hoping someone else has done the math on this:

What precisely does Imp SotC affect? Just attacks? Abilities? Spells?
#1010SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by JulianMaiev View Post
The tooltip wording is ambiguous, so I'm hoping someone else has done the math on this:

What precisely does Imp SotC affect? Just attacks? Abilities? Spells?
All attacks against that mob, including spells and physical attacks.
#1011SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Pitbuller
"If we accept that most AP using classes can get 1~ DPS per 10 AP, it takes 4~ iBoM buffs for said talent to break even with Benediction."
Right number is closer to 1dps per 3-4AP
#1012SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
The thing i'm having a problem with now is knowing the best times to pop avenging wrath.
#1013SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
The thing i'm having a problem with now is knowing the best times to pop avenging wrath.
You should use 1st AW pretty early in combat. Threat wont be much of problem anymore, and in worst case scenario you are close to threat cap with AW if your tank is even remotely competitive. Its rule of thumb that you will get 2 AWs in 1 bossfight, and thats something I personally try to aim for. I also use haste potions simultaneusly with AW. I can imagine it being huge boost to BE paladins (Damn you spoiled light stealers!). Something that needs to take under consider is the offset between AW and haste potion cooldowns. Do you want to delay the next haste potion to be used with next AW. If its very likely that you wont get 3rd haste potion during the fight, then save it for next AW. Other than that chain the potions as cooldown allows.

Pretty important thing to take into account is possible CC of boss. Archimonde fear, airburst, mother teleport and so on. When you plan to use AW make sure to do it instantly after said CC. Just to make sure you get all out of the cooldown.
#1014SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dolamroth
Just wondering what would Boost my dps more insane Str pots or haste pots?
#1015SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
Edit: See below for more accurate results.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/27/07 at 2:06 PM.
#1016SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
felirx
Originally Posted by Dolamroth View Post
Just wondering what would Boost my dps more insane Str pots or haste pots?
Quickly plugging in to bellator's spreadsheet, both pots gives
Haste = +180 dps Soc, 262 dps Sob for 15 second
Insane Strenght = +71 dps Soc, +77 dps Sob for 15 seconds

Naturally the actual DPS numbers will vary depending on gear but you can see the difference in the pots quite clearly.

Last edited by felirx : 11/27/07 at 2:14 PM.
#1017SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by felirx View Post
Quickly plugging in both pots gives
Haste = +180 dps Soc, 262 dps Sob for 15 second
Insane Strenght = +71 dps Soc, +77 dps Sob for 15 seconds
Did you use bellators sheet?

Edit: Just checked from my ingame WWS and haste potion would be around 177 dps, so thats pretty accurate.
#1018SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Strifen
Well, this was fun. Ret paladin dps pushed to the limit: Wow Web Stats

Didn't get to fully use 2cnd AW and forget to eat +20 str food. Figure once I get the rest of the upgrades I need I can easily break 2k DPS in ideal situations like this. I know my group was stacked to hell and I cycled lusts to the meele (it's what we always do however). Can't wait for the cursader strike change, that's going to be a huge boost to my DPS. Thing are looking good.

Last edited by Strifen : 11/28/07 at 1:22 AM.
#1019SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Valerys
Just keep in mind that on some boss fights saving your Forbearance for Divine Shield is better. On Vashj phase 1 for example, I find it best to save it in case I get a static charge.
#1020SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Finally got my Torch of the Damned and the results are pretty amazing, too bad I was using old damage meters and had to hold dps cause it was showing me constantly on the edge of threat: WWS
#1021SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Well, this was fun. Ret paladin dps pushed to the limit: Wow Web Stats

Didn't get to fully use 2cnd AW and forget to eat +20 str food. Figure once I get the rest of the upgrades I need I can easily break 2k DPS in ideal situations like this. I know my group was stacked to hell and I cycled lusts to the meele (it's what we always do however). Can't wait for the cursader strike change, that's going to be a huge boost to my DPS. Thing are looking good.
Synergy with SOB and haste is just insane. And Im afraid that it will be most likely nerfed shortly after 2.3.2 only that I hope none of Alliance paladins are receiving end of this nerf where SoB works so damn well under right circumstances.

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/28/07 at 9:58 AM.
#1022SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
I am rather interested in some maths on the value of ret paladins assuming windfury slots are taken, or assuming that the opportunity cost for taking a ret paladin is one melee ending up outside of the windfury group.

We tipically run with 1 enh shaman, 1 or 2 dps warriors, and 2 or 3 rogues and 2 feral druids. We almost always have the enh shaman with the melees, but the resto shaman is almost always with a shadowpriest and some casters, expecially on fights that require a lot of chain healing. We have been trying to recruit extra shamans with no luck.

Is it worth it to bring a ret paladin over an extra ranged DPS class assuming he won't get windfury? Is it worth it to switch a ret paladin into a group instead of a rogue and leave a group without battleshout/unleashed rage? It is obvious that a paladin gets more from windfury than a rogue, but does a paladin get more from ap than a rogue does? UR + BS is nearly ~700 AP or so.

It seems like at least for me the limiting factor is that melees require a hell of a lot more support than say an extra warlock, and the amount of support you can bring is limited wihout twisting your entire raid make up.
#1023SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
My gear is fairly sub-par (Armory) at the moment compared to the rest of our dps, and when put in with the melee I was right up there with our rogues. My group wasn't even that impressive as our fury warrior wasn't online last night (3x rogue, me, enh sham). I expect when my gear gets better I'll be competitive with all but our 4pc t6 warlock and 2x warglaive rogue.
#1024SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
How often could a retadin get away with using haste pots instead of mana pots to keep his mana up?

Only way I can think is when BoW, JoW, windfury and a shadowpriest is present... or perhaps spiritual attunement provides enough mana return to not worry about the shadowpriest? Maybe just on short fights under 5mins?

I played with ret in a ZA raid last week and I did drink mana pots during the dragonhawk boss Jan'alai mainly because I consecrated to help with adds. My dps was quite decent with my kara gear/S2 gear in mind so Im wondering if its almost better to get dangerously low on mana while using haste pots on cooldown.
#1025SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Once 2.3.2 hits mana shouldn't be any problem unless you insist on spamming max rank consecration all fight.
#1026SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
I am rather interested in some maths on the value of ret paladins assuming windfury slots are taken, or assuming that the opportunity cost for taking a ret paladin is one melee ending up outside of the windfury group.

We tipically run with 1 enh shaman, 1 or 2 dps warriors, and 2 or 3 rogues and 2 feral druids. We almost always have the enh shaman with the melees, but the resto shaman is almost always with a shadowpriest and some casters, expecially on fights that require a lot of chain healing. We have been trying to recruit extra shamans with no luck.

Is it worth it to bring a ret paladin over an extra ranged DPS class assuming he won't get windfury? Is it worth it to switch a ret paladin into a group instead of a rogue and leave a group without battleshout/unleashed rage? It is obvious that a paladin gets more from windfury than a rogue, but does a paladin get more from ap than a rogue does? UR + BS is nearly ~700 AP or so.

It seems like at least for me the limiting factor is that melees require a hell of a lot more support than say an extra warlock, and the amount of support you can bring is limited wihout twisting your entire raid make up.
No matter where a ret pally is he will still be providing the same utility and support. He will always be CSing, always have the 3% more crit, always have the 2% more damage aura regardless of whether he is in the melee group or not. All you will be doing by putting him in a caster/tank group is gimping his personal DPS. Yuo have to decide whether the 122 Mp5, 2.2% crit and extra blessing (with gimp DPS) is worth the spot of another warlock (who most likely brings nothing other than an extra soulstone).

Unless your Rogues seriously outgear your Ret pally he will gain more raw AP from UR than the rogues. Classes that use 2 handed weapons typically have more Attack Power than duel wielders (for various reasons, such as the much lower hit cap), and since UR is a percentage increase the more you have the more you get. The math for figuring out who gets more actual DPS is a little complicated, but I'll do it later if you still need it (I'm running a tad bit late for work).
#1027SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Every calculation so far indicate that instead rogue its always more raid DPS to put the retribution paladin in the melee group. All my ingame tests have shown 50-150% more damage from that 1 WF slot when its utilized for Retribution than rogue. Something we use is Rogue + Rogue + Warrior + Shaman + Retribution in our current raids. For me, and in our guild with our setup, it would be plain stupid to not put me in the melee group. Its not like the raid dps is magically better of quality somehow when the numbers go down.
#1028SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
How often could a retadin get away with using haste pots instead of mana pots to keep his mana up?
Only way I can think is when BoW, JoW, windfury and a shadowpriest is present... or perhaps spiritual attunement provides enough mana return to not worry about the shadowpriest? Maybe just on short fights under 5mins?
In 25 man raids when you have JoW on the mob, BoW, and a decent amount of aoe damage coming in that's enough mana coming back to not need super mana potions. I chug haste potions like its going out of style (guild bank funds them) and I never seems to have mana problems on any fight. In 10 mans I usually need to take a mana pot over a haste potion because raid buffs are the majority of your mana regen and in 10 mans it's much less likely to have BoW/JoW.

As for the windfurry discussion, I honestly wouldn't even DPS as ret without a windfurry totem present, I would most likely respec holy or bring in another dps class. I know that sounds extreme, but that's just how much windfurry adds to our dps. Thankfully 1 of our rogues is pve multilate right now so we stick him in the hunter group, hunter, hunter, feral, resto sham, rogue and he can do double poisions and gets a a ton of synergy out of this group. Normal meele group is rogue, rogue, enhance shaman, ret pally, ms war.
#1029SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Every calculation so far indicate that instead rogue its always more raid DPS to put the retribution paladin in the melee group. All my ingame tests have shown 50-150% more damage from that 1 WF slot when its utilized for Retribution than rogue. Something we use is Rogue + Rogue + Warrior + Shaman + Retribution in our current raids. For me, and in our guild with our setup, it would be plain stupid to not put me in the melee group. Its not like the raid dps is magically better of quality somehow when the numbers go down.
In our guild's case, one of our main tanks is a prot pally.
So for me to be in his group (hyjal especially), he can put out infinite threat and do a considerable amount of AoE damage.

Maybe my dps will look shitty, but the boss and trash will die faster.
#1030SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Beerbaron
My guild runs feral/melee heavy and recently we had the following two groups in a 25 man raid:

Group 1:
Enhancement Shaman (well geared)
Feral Druid
Ret Pally
Rogue (combat, highest geared in guild)
MS Warrior

Group 2:
Enhancement Shaman (alt with decent gear)
Feral Druid
Rogue (combat)
Rogue (combat)
Survival Hunter

There was a bit of discussion and no real consensus over the best way to set up these two groups in terms of maximum raid dps. Would it be better to swap the group 1 feral with a group 2 rogue and give group 2 the agility totem for example? Should we have swapped the Ret Pally with a group 2 rogue and used windfury for both groups? What would be the best setup and totem use given these 10 raid members?
#1031SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
In our guild's case, one of our main tanks is a prot pally.
So for me to be in his group (hyjal especially), he can put out infinite threat and do a considerable amount of AoE damage.

Maybe my dps will look shitty, but the boss and trash will die faster.
Why keep you in hes group at boss tho if it wont benefit anyone really?

Last edited by Cromfel : 11/28/07 at 12:18 PM.
#1032SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Why keep you in hes group at boss tho if it wont benefit anyone really?
No clue; i was pissed that with all of our shaman, i couldn't have windfury
I still managed 900 dps, though!

Right now the officers are still pissed that they lost their best healer in exchange for my moderate dps.
I'm still trying to convince them it's better raid dps, but too many variables have been changing for me to be able to prove that fact.
#1033SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
My guild runs feral/melee heavy and recently we had the following two groups in a 25 man raid:

Group 1:
Enhancement Shaman (well geared)
Feral Druid
Ret Pally
Rogue (combat, highest geared in guild)
MS Warrior

Group 2:
Enhancement Shaman (alt with decent gear)
Feral Druid
Rogue (combat)
Rogue (combat)
Survival Hunter

There was a bit of discussion and no real consensus over the best way to set up these two groups in terms of maximum raid dps. Would it be better to swap the group 1 feral with a group 2 rogue and give group 2 the agility totem for example? Should we have swapped the Ret Pally with a group 2 rogue and used windfury for both groups? What would be the best setup and totem use given these 10 raid members?
If it were me, just gut feeling, throw both ferals in g2 and put one of the rogues from g2 in g1, use windfury in g1 and agility in g2.
#1034SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xellos
Went as ret on monday for some Teron Gorefiend atttempts. I was pretty pleased with the results and my highest dps for the night was 1384 (roguex2, feral druid, enh shaman, myself). However, I did find that after the first bloodlust, combined with AW, I was riding a fine line with threat. I had to stop attacking or Crusader Striking more than I wanted. When I hear people cycling lusts in their melee group, I wonder what tricks they use for their tank to still keep hate. I assume windfury in the tank group or chain MDs are obvious answers, but if there's anything else that I'm missing, please let me know.

That experience almost makes me want to enchant my next cloak with subtlety...
#1035SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Went as ret on monday for some Teron Gorefiend atttempts. I was pretty pleased with the results and my highest dps for the night was 1384 (roguex2, feral druid, enh shaman, myself). However, I did find that after the first bloodlust, combined with AW, I was riding a fine line with threat. I had to stop attacking or Crusader Striking more than I wanted. When I hear people cycling lusts in their melee group, I wonder what tricks they use for their tank to still keep hate. I assume windfury in the tank group or chain MDs are obvious answers, but if there's anything else that I'm missing, please let me know.

That experience almost makes me want to enchant my next cloak with subtlety...
When was the last time you updated omen? The older version will not take into account our passive 30% threat reduction. If you are running on the newest omen and you're getting threat capped at 1384 DPS then your tank is probably doing something wrong and I would suggest that you point him to the direction of some of the threads on EJ about tank TPS.
#1036SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xellos
I had omen updated for the fight. Another indication that I was riding the threat line too fine was when teron turned around and smashed my face during 1 attempt.
#1037SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
I had omen updated for the fight. Another indication that I was riding the threat line too fine was when teron turned around and smashed my face during 1 attempt.
Bummer. Asside from giving your tank windfurry and having hunters MD him, the only other things I can think of is having a shaman lust him on engage, make sure he has prom, earth shield as healing aggro from these account to him, lotp with the extra 5% crit will help too. It sounds like the main thing is his TPS cycles are off, and no amount of raid support is going to fix that.

And yea, go for the sub enchant to cloak.
#1038SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madmardigan83
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
I am rather interested in some maths on the value of ret paladins assuming windfury slots are taken, or assuming that the opportunity cost for taking a ret paladin is one melee ending up outside of the windfury group.

We tipically run with 1 enh shaman, 1 or 2 dps warriors, and 2 or 3 rogues and 2 feral druids. We almost always have the enh shaman with the melees, but the resto shaman is almost always with a shadowpriest and some casters, expecially on fights that require a lot of chain healing. We have been trying to recruit extra shamans with no luck.

Is it worth it to bring a ret paladin over an extra ranged DPS class assuming he won't get windfury? Is it worth it to switch a ret paladin into a group instead of a rogue and leave a group without battleshout/unleashed rage? It is obvious that a paladin gets more from windfury than a rogue, but does a paladin get more from ap than a rogue does? UR + BS is nearly ~700 AP or so.

It seems like at least for me the limiting factor is that melees require a hell of a lot more support than say an extra warlock, and the amount of support you can bring is limited wihout twisting your entire raid make up.

***I asked this very same question in the shaman forums a month or so ago... this is the math someone did for me regarding it. I don't believe these include 2.3 changes, so I'm not sure if it would different at all anymore. If this math doesn't make sense, please let me know, and we can fix it so it's more on target and is useful.***



If we assume that swapping in a Retribution Paladin means swapping out a Rogue, we see the following changes.

The Rogue loses and the Paladin Gains the following buffs:



Battle Shout

Leader of the Pack

Windfury

Strength of the Earth Totem

Unleashed Rage


The Party gains Imp Sanctity Aura.

To summarize, the Rogue loses 510 + 10% of normal AP (assuming 710 total), 5% crit, and 20% MH White Damage, which the Paladin gains. The other four members of the party gain 2% damage.

With a 3.8 speed weapon, a Retribution Paladin will swing 15.8 times a minute. Windfury effectively increases this to 19 times. Seal of Command will proc approximately 8 times during this time.

710 AP will add 78 DPS from the Paladin's MH swings and Windfury Procs, 35.8 DPS from Crusader Strike, and 28 DPS from Seal of Command. Alternatively, it will add 34.5 DPS from Seal of Blood. 5% crit will increase the total of these numbers (using Seal of Command over Blood) to 148 DPS.

In addition, the Paladin gains a 26% (Windfury and Crit bonus) increase to their previous white damage, and a 5% increase in previous Crusader Strike, Seal of Command and Judgement of Command damage.

A Sword Rogue maintaining Slice and Dice with a 2.6/1.4 combination will be attacking with speed 2/1.08. In one average minute's time, they will swing their main hand 34 times (including Sword Spec procs) and their off hand 55.6 times, and Sinister Strike as many as 18 times. Windfury will proc 6 times.

710 AP will add 87 DPS from the rogue's MH swings and Windfury procs, 38 DPS from the OH Swings, and 37 DPS from Sinister Strike procs. The total, factoring in the 5% crit, is 170 DPS.

In additional, the Rogue gains a 26% increase to their previous MH white damage only, and a 5% increase in previous OH and Sinister Strike Damage.

So, we have the following equation.

26% * Paladin White + 5% * (Crusader + SoC + JoC) + 148 + 2% * 4 Person Party = 26% * Rogue MH White + 5% (Rogue OH White + Sinister Strike) + 170

If someone could contribute the stats of an equally geared Sword Rogue and a Retribution Paladin, we could see which is almost factually better. The following, however, is pure assumption.

Assumptions:



The Paladin's DPS is split 50/50 between White and Yellow. [AKA: PW = PY]

The Rogue's DPS is split 50/25/25 between MH, OH and Specials

The Rogue's DPS is 1000 ungrouped.

The Party of 4's DPS is 3750 (another Rogue, a Druid, a Warrior and Shaman).



26% * PW + 5% * PY + 148 + 2% * 4Party = 26% * 500 + 5% * 500 + 170
26% * PW + 5% * PY + 2% * 3750 = 130 + 25 + 170 - 148
26% * PW + 5% * PY + 75 = 325 - 148
26% * PW + 5% * PY = 177 - 75
26% * PW + 5% * PW = 102
PW ( 26% + 5% ) = 102
PW ( 31% ) = 102
PW = 329
PTotal = 658

So, a Paladin in 2.3 can have 65.8% a Rogue's ungrouped DPS while outside the group themselves and be even with a Rogue for being put in the DPS group.
#1039SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Bummer. Asside from giving your tank windfurry and having hunters MD him, the only other things I can think of is having a shaman lust him on engage, make sure he has prom, earth shield as healing aggro from these account to him, lotp with the extra 5% crit will help too. It sounds like the main thing is his TPS cycles are off, and no amount of raid support is going to fix that.

And yea, go for the sub enchant to cloak.
Due to how threat modifiers work, Subtlety won't be a gigantic difference in TPS if you're already "riding the line", as it were.

Assuming Salvation and Fanaticism, threat for a Paladin would be:

0.7 * 0.7 = 0.49 threat per dmg

Or 51% threat reduction, and with Subtlety to cloak:

0.98 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.4802 threat per dmg

Rounding off to 52% threat reduction.
#1040SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Strifen
Yea I agree and understand how threat reduction works, but the thing is if he's already threat capped on tank and spank fights, it would be logical to use the threat reduction enchant would it not ? Even as minimal as it is. Also if your tank doesn't have 2% threat to gloves, I recommend he gets that aswell. Those two things should help your situation. Agreeably minimally but it helps!

Last edited by Strifen : 11/28/07 at 1:36 PM.
#1041SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Yea I agree and understand how threat reduction works, but the thing is if he's already threat capped on tank and spank fights, it would be logical to use the threat reduction enchant would it not ? Even as minimal as it is. Also if your tank doesn't have 2% threat to gloves, I recommend he gets that aswell. Those two things should help your situation.
Oh, no doubt... I wasn't knocking the enchant, but just illustrating how it wasn't a magical cure for anything. :P
#1042SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
Due to how threat modifiers work, Subtlety won't be a gigantic difference in TPS if you're already "riding the line", as it were.

Assuming Salvation and Fanaticism, threat for a Paladin would be:

0.7 * 0.7 = 0.49 threat per dmg

Or 51% threat reduction, and with Subtlety to cloak:

0.98 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.4802 threat per dmg

Rounding off to 52% threat reduction.
In terms of damage done per point of threat:

No Threat Reduction: 100%

Fanatacism (30%): 143% (1 / 70%)

Fanatacism + Salv: 204%

Fanatacism + Salv + Subtlety: 208%


Put another way, Subtlety allows you to do more 2~% more damage without pulling aggro (assuming you're riding your tank's max threat) That makes it a lot better than something like +12 agi (~0.5% crit, which isn't quite 0.5% more damage).


Again, this is assuming that threat is an issue.
#1043SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
In our guild's case, one of our main tanks is a prot pally.
Back in my tanking days, I always said my ideal group would be:

Protection Paladin
Retribution Paladin
DPS Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Warlock (Blood Pact) or Restoration Druid (Tree of Life Aura) depending on the fight. Could sub in another melee DPS on most encounters, really.

Running with a "melee DPS" group like that would produce maximum threat for the tank, and wouldn't significantly hurt DPS output for the group except in situations where the Warrior would want to use Commanding Shout over Battle Shout.
#1044SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dannethkilm
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
In terms of damage done per point of threat:

No Threat Reduction: 100%

Fanatacism (30%): 143% (1 / 70%)

Fanatacism + Salv: 204%

Fanatacism + Salv + Subtlety: 208%
One trinket that I have yet to see on the Bellador spread sheet is [Prism of Inner Calm] from Vashj. I was able to obtain it and it use it when ever I find I am threat capped. It especially pays off when you get the insane crit sprees flowing. With it, I was able to just attack constantly without pulling on Voidreaver with out having to throw any concern to the 3 tanks threat. When I looked at Omen, I was way below all the tanks even when delivering the windfury bombs.

Even Cromfel would use it as I seen in some of his videos, he HAS to swap to SoW because he is at the threat cap. I would even go as far to argue that it is one of the top dps trinket for paladins even though it doesn't have any melee friendly stats on it.
#1045SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by Dannethkilm View Post
Even Cromfel would use it as I seen in some of his videos, he HAS to swap to SoW because he is at the threat cap. I would even go as far to argue that it is one of the top dps trinket for paladins even though it doesn't have any melee friendly stats on it.
I'm almost positive, correct me if I'm wrong Cromfel but those videos are before 2.3 and our threat reduction buff. I dont think that he would need to go to SoW now.

It's one of the better trinkets if you're threat capped of course, doesn't matter what damage you're going to get out of another trinket if you're having to slow down your DPS.

With that said, has threat over-all been an issue for most people since the changes ? I have 0 issues whatsoever with pushing myself to the max, admittedly, our tank does some amazing TPS, but I'm curious as to how other paladins are finding it.
#1046SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
At worst I get some red flashing as I touch 90% tank thread, if I trinket blow early in hopes of getting a third round of trinket in right at the end of the fight. I've had exactly 0 issues with actually pulling threat except on like random shit in hyjal trash if I attack something that is only being held by the prot pally's 600sp Consecrates.
#1047SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
I've had zero threat issues except on Morogrim when I don't get graved for a long period of time. I have to hold back on bosses with a hateful strike a little bit as well. Letting the tank top 4k threat before I start in seems to be sufficient in most cases, pre-patch I was at about the same comfort level with 8k (a few seconds later).
#1048SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
***I asked this very same question in the shaman forums a month or so ago... this is the math someone did for me regarding it. I don't believe these include 2.3 changes, so I'm not sure if it would different at all anymore. If this math doesn't make sense, please let me know, and we can fix it so it's more on target and is useful.***



If we assume that swapping in a Retribution Paladin means swapping out a Rogue, we see the following changes.

The Rogue loses and the Paladin Gains the following buffs:



Battle Shout

Leader of the Pack

Windfury

Strength of the Earth Totem

Unleashed Rage


The Party gains Imp Sanctity Aura.

To summarize, the Rogue loses 510 + 10% of normal AP (assuming 710 total), 5% crit, and 20% MH White Damage, which the Paladin gains. The other four members of the party gain 2% damage.

With a 3.8 speed weapon, a Retribution Paladin will swing 15.8 times a minute. Windfury effectively increases this to 19 times. Seal of Command will proc approximately 8 times during this time.

710 AP will add 78 DPS from the Paladin's MH swings and Windfury Procs, 35.8 DPS from Crusader Strike, and 28 DPS from Seal of Command. Alternatively, it will add 34.5 DPS from Seal of Blood. 5% crit will increase the total of these numbers (using Seal of Command over Blood) to 148 DPS.

In addition, the Paladin gains a 26% (Windfury and Crit bonus) increase to their previous white damage, and a 5% increase in previous Crusader Strike, Seal of Command and Judgement of Command damage.

A Sword Rogue maintaining Slice and Dice with a 2.6/1.4 combination will be attacking with speed 2/1.08. In one average minute's time, they will swing their main hand 34 times (including Sword Spec procs) and their off hand 55.6 times, and Sinister Strike as many as 18 times. Windfury will proc 6 times.

710 AP will add 87 DPS from the rogue's MH swings and Windfury procs, 38 DPS from the OH Swings, and 37 DPS from Sinister Strike procs. The total, factoring in the 5% crit, is 170 DPS.

In additional, the Rogue gains a 26% increase to their previous MH white damage only, and a 5% increase in previous OH and Sinister Strike Damage.

So, we have the following equation.

26% * Paladin White + 5% * (Crusader + SoC + JoC) + 148 + 2% * 4 Person Party = 26% * Rogue MH White + 5% (Rogue OH White + Sinister Strike) + 170

If someone could contribute the stats of an equally geared Sword Rogue and a Retribution Paladin, we could see which is almost factually better. The following, however, is pure assumption.

Assumptions:



The Paladin's DPS is split 50/50 between White and Yellow. [AKA: PW = PY]

The Rogue's DPS is split 50/25/25 between MH, OH and Specials

The Rogue's DPS is 1000 ungrouped.

The Party of 4's DPS is 3750 (another Rogue, a Druid, a Warrior and Shaman).



26% * PW + 5% * PY + 148 + 2% * 4Party = 26% * 500 + 5% * 500 + 170
26% * PW + 5% * PY + 2% * 3750 = 130 + 25 + 170 - 148
26% * PW + 5% * PY + 75 = 325 - 148
26% * PW + 5% * PY = 177 - 75
26% * PW + 5% * PW = 102
PW ( 26% + 5% ) = 102
PW ( 31% ) = 102
PW = 329
PTotal = 658

So, a Paladin in 2.3 can have 65.8% a Rogue's ungrouped DPS while outside the group themselves and be even with a Rogue for being put in the DPS group.
Mostly correct, but this does not include the fact that Ret pally get 2x AP benefit from Str that rogues do and another 10% from Divine Str, thus get much higher benefit from SoE totems. Also, Ret will typically have higher AP than Rogues to start with, so 10% from UR is higher.

Thus the 710 AP gained by ret is a low estimate.
#1049SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
I havent had any threat problems after the patch, and have firmly banked my prism and removed my threat reduction enchant from cloak.
#1050SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
Right now the officers are still pissed that they lost their best healer in exchange for my moderate dps.
I'm still trying to convince them it's better raid dps, but too many variables have been changing for me to be able to prove that fact.
Im in the same boat here... going from #1 healer (mostly) to moderate support dps has been a tough sell.

The other problem I see is that being the raid leader, my view of the raid narrows considerably when I switch from watching green bars go up to watching red bars go down. (altho this most likely stop me from yelling over vent over little things)

Thanks to those who answered my previous question about mana issues, I guess I'll start stacking haste pots now in preparation. =]
#1051SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nemcova
I've been running into alot of discrepancies about what group i should be put into. We only run 2 shaman, no enhance shaman. and we have 2 fury warriors and 2 rogues that consistently raid. usually we end up doing those 4 melee with 1 shaman, and then the other shaman with casters and maybe a shadow priest.

what ends up happening with me is, they just kinda throw me in the whoever they can. 90% of the time i gotta ask the officers to fit me in to at least get a battle shout(from a prot warrior)

Granted i used to be holy before the patch, i was asked to go ret to give it a try. my gear is pretty decent but i dont think they are giving me a fair chance to show what this spec can do.

is there any way i can go about trying to get into the melee group without stepping over anyone? Its gotten to a point where, they find it hard to bring me into raids cuz they dont see my dps as being enough.

and yes, they are measuring my straight dps as justification of a raid invite (note i was always invited as holy)
any help would be nice :P

Last edited by Nemcova : 11/30/07 at 1:26 AM.
#1052SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Im in the same boat here... going from #1 healer (mostly) to moderate support dps has been a tough sell.

The other problem I see is that being the raid leader, my view of the raid narrows considerably when I switch from watching green bars go up to watching red bars go down. (altho this most likely stop me from yelling over vent over little things)

Thanks to those who answered my previous question about mana issues, I guess I'll start stacking haste pots now in preparation. =]
Same here as well. In my case a lot of healers stepped up and we have a great cadre of healers to choose from. I switched prepatch and the raid DPS went up. My original argument was that our pally MT could have a higher threat cap. Now I am in a melee grp with a fury, enhance, druid and a rogue and raid DPS is unreal. I can still go holy and do decent healing but I am truly a RetPally now.

I came in #5 in a Kael downing and #3 on Solarian and nobody says lolret anymore...
#1053SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Ok, as said before, as a bare minimum you will need Windfury to do any form of competitive personal dps.

That's pretty much the only buff I think is non-negotiable, everything else is nice but not required.

Why?

As a slow 2h wielding class, windfury procs are a godsend, every proc means a huge extra hit and a huge damage contribution.

Rogues/Fury warriors (dual wielders) gain a lot less from windfury procs.

2h wielding MS warriors (for blood frenzy) used to be on the same boat as us, but go with tight slam rotations now-a-days to provide competitive DPS, which interferes with their gain from windfury.

As such, this puts us at the top of the "windfury needers" food chain, our average results are 8-15% damage gained from windfury procs, where as dual wielders gain 4-7% according to my experience.


Now who to take out of the melee shammy group: A rogue.

Why?

Since you don't have an enhancement shammy the argument of "but we need the unleashed rage (+10% AP)" for your rogues becomes irrelevant.

What's left is SoE, which is 77 str untalented, which gives your rogues only 85 AP, where as it gives you/fury warriors 186 AP (this is with kings and talents) and slightly less for MS warriors.


In addition, you boost your groups damage by 2% through imp Sanctity Aura.




So in a nutshell: High dependency on WF to provide good personal DPS and a lot more benefit from WF/SoE than any rogue as well as a group buff of 2% damage vs nada by the rogue.

The above was just to argue group placement, not raid relevance (raid buffs etc).
#1054SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Nemcova View Post
Is there any way i can go about trying to get into the melee group without stepping over anyone?
The classes you have priority over (IMO) in order:

1. Mutilate Rogues
Yeah, they're rare, but if you have one in raid chances are he'll be using dual DP, and thus be getting no benefit from Windfury. Kick him to the tank or hunter group.

2. Feral Druids
Again, no benefit from Windfury at all. The crit aura is nice, but the 2% damage and 3% crit from the ret pally make up for it. Tank or hunter group for the kitties.

3. Any "third rogue"
Its really just a waste of buffs to put a third rogue in a melee group over a ret pally. The DPS he loses is small compared to the amount you gain. Stick him in a corner somewhere.

Those are the classes I would drop first from a melee group in exchange for a ret pally. It is impossible to underemphasize the benefit that a ret pally gains from the group buffs he gets from a melee group. The are only a few fights (Kaz'Rogal) I can think of where I would really want to be in a caster group for a shadow priest.
#1055SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rotor
Just like to put it out there that I have yet to group up with and get a Windfury Totem and I do 800-940 dps just fine. I don't expect to do Rogue dps and just due to the nature of Bursty 2H damage vs constant Dual Wield I don't really expect to compete with them on the Damage meters.

I do however keep really close behind them -_^

I'm sure I can post a few WWS once I get a hold of some recent ones. If it's wanted.
#1056SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nemcova
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Ok, as said before, as a bare minimum you will need Windfury to do any form of competitive personal dps.

That's pretty much the only buff I think is non-negotiable, everything else is nice but not required.

Why?

As a slow 2h wielding class, windfury procs are a godsend, every proc means a huge extra hit and a huge damage contribution.

Rogues/Fury warriors (dual wielders) gain a lot less from windfury procs.

2h wielding MS warriors (for blood frenzy) used to be on the same boat as us, but go with tight slam rotations now-a-days to provide competitive DPS, which interferes with their gain from windfury.

As such, this puts us at the top of the "windfury needers" food chain, our average results are 8-15% damage gained from windfury procs, where as dual wielders gain 4-7% according to my experience.


Now who to take out of the melee shammy group: A rogue.

Why?

Since you don't have an enhancement shammy the argument of "but we need the unleashed rage (+10% AP)" for your rogues becomes irrelevant.

What's left is SoE, which is 77 str untalented, which gives your rogues only 85 AP, where as it gives you/fury warriors 186 AP (this is with kings and talents) and slightly less for MS warriors.


In addition, you boost your groups damage by 2% through imp Sanctity Aura.




So in a nutshell: High dependency on WF to provide good personal DPS and a lot more benefit from WF/SoE than any rogue as well as a group buff of 2% damage vs nada by the rogue.

The above was just to argue group placement, not raid relevance (raid buffs etc).
this is basically what i tell them, but they say that a rogue benefits more than me cuz my dps is "So bad" which it isnt, like the poster prior, i maintain about 800-900 without even having battle shout.but then they use that against me when making the melee group
#1057SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by Nemcova View Post
this is basically what i tell them, but they say that a rogue benefits more than me cuz my dps is "So bad" which it isnt, like the poster prior, i maintain about 800-900 without even having battle shout.but then they use that against me when making the melee group
Why are they doing it even if it is 100% obvious the raid DPS will suffer from it? Thats just plain stupid stuff. Sorry to say, but if your raid leaders cant understand what it means to gain 50-150% more damage for that 1 WF group slot and by that increase raid DPS even more due sanctity aura and such. Its just plain idiotic to not put you in WF group if you are in raid.
#1058SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
Find someone with comparable gear on SWS, get a breakdown of how much extra dps they pull entirely due to WF, and then compare it to a similar gear-level rogue's extra dps due to WF. Make links. Show that you're right.

Not that I necessarily think it'll help, your raid leaders sound like the same kind of people who were saying "lol why would a priest go shadow" for several months after BC came out. However, there's a marginal chance that real-world data will work where "logic" and "math" doesn't (seriously who uses those). ...Or they'll just claim that the rogue in your data sucks. I had to deal with the same flak but it went away the moment I got WF and started breathing down the rogues' necks.
#1059SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nemcova
Originally Posted by Nayair View Post
Find someone with comparable gear on SWS, get a breakdown of how much extra dps they pull entirely due to WF, and then compare it to a similar gear-level rogue's extra dps due to WF. Make links. Show that you're right.

Not that I necessarily think it'll help, your raid leaders sound like the same kind of people who were saying "lol why would a priest go shadow" for several months after BC came out. However, there's a marginal chance that real-world data will work where "logic" and "math" doesn't (seriously who uses those). ...Or they'll just claim that the rogue in your data sucks. I had to deal with the same flak but it went away the moment I got WF and started breathing down the rogues' necks.
yea its interesting. They have told me personally that they would never let a paladin go ret in the guild. But shortly after we got into SSC, our GM left and we had our paladin class lead take over. And he was the one who approached me to give it a shot when 2.3 came out. cuz i actively worked on all 3 of my sets(holy>prot>ret)

being as ret was my tertiary set, it wasnt that high of quality at the time, but its improved alot. when we were progressing through RoS this week, i was right with the rogues and fury wars when we only had 1 shaman in the raid (given to casters) and then, and i didnt even have battle shout, but when our other shaman logged in, the 2 rogues and 2 warriors got the shaman without question.

i just have no way around it . i dont know how to get it through their heads that i can benefit GREATLY from having a shaman in the group.

Last edited by Nemcova : 11/30/07 at 1:44 AM.
#1060SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Theras
Here's some WWS reports of my first night as (hopefully) a full time Ret Paladin:

Gurtogg Bloodboil (no Windfury, no Battle Shout) - Wow Web Stats
Teron Gorefiend (only Windfury) - Wow Web Stats
High Warlord Naj'entus (ideal melee DPS group) - Wow Web Stats

Take a look at my relative position throughout the night. First place with a nearly ideal melee DPS group (Windfury / SoE, Improved Battle Shout, LotP), middle of the pack (but competitive) with just the Shaman present, and near the bottom of the pile with a group with no group buffs at all. That should give you a pretty decent idea of what exactly group placement does for a Retribution Paladin.

Edit: Even using some very simple math it's easy to see who benefits the most from melee totems. Let's look at mine and (the Rogue from my WWS report) Kouheii's Armory profiles:

The World of Warcraft Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

My average, unbuffed, pre-armor weapon swing is 1080.5 damage. Kouheii's average, unbuffed, pre-armor main hand swing is 595 damage. Regular, unimproved Windfury procs would be for 1201.29 damage for me, and 680.82 damage for him. I gain 63.23 DPS, he gains 50.43 DPS. Paladin wins.

Strength of Earth will give me 239 attack power after Kings and Divine Strength. Strength of Earth Totem will give him 109 attack power after Kings. Paladin wins.

Unleashed Rage will give me 197.8 attack power. Unleashed Rage will give him 173.4 attack power. Paladin wins.

The scale tips more in our favor if we are fully raid buffed, as well. I'm of course not trying to say that Retribution Paladins are better than Rogues, but that we gain more out of Shaman buffs than they do. And if you have to choose between Rogue 3 in the melee DPS group and your only Retribution Paladin, the choice should be pretty easy.

Last edited by Theras : 11/30/07 at 2:17 AM.
#1061SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
I think the words "Try it and prove me wrong" might go a long way... altho that is putting you in the hot seat assuming you can rise to the task of convincing them otherwise.

There was some math done about rogues vs paladins with the benefit of WF some pages ago you could look at and expand upon as well.

You simply can't please everyone, when you have 5 mages.. not all of them can be in the shadowpriests group... when you have 2 warlocks, one group is going to miss out on imp buffs... when you have 2 paladins, someones missing out on an extra blessing... etc etc

Composition to the most efficient value is name of the game and someone is bound to be sour over being left out of awesome dps group synergy.
#1062SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nemcova
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
I think the words "Try it and prove me wrong" might go a long way... altho that is putting you in the hot seat assuming you can rise to the task of convincing them otherwise.

There was some math done about rogues vs paladins with the benefit of WF some pages ago you could look at and expand upon as well.

You simply can't please everyone, when you have 5 mages.. not all of them can be in the shadowpriests group... when you have 2 warlocks, one group is going to miss out on imp buffs... when you have 2 paladins, someones missing out on an extra blessing... etc etc

Composition to the most efficient value is name of the game and someone is bound to be sour over being left out of awesome dps group synergy.
i dont mind getting put in the hot seat at all. I mean, i was purely holy until we got into hyjal. 2 nights of messing up terribly on trash, and they finally gave me a shot at AoE tanking the trash.

we got to archimonde in a matter of days. and alot of it hinged on me being a knowledgeable paladin(and having a decent prot set :P)
#1063SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Veneda
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
The scale tips more in our favor if we are fully raid buffed, as well.(...)
Bingo.

Ret paladin scaling is one of the best in game thanks to many % multipliers of damage and stats - 20% STR (BoK+talents), practically granted +11% crit from talents (+5%, Imp. SoCr, SS), Crusade + Imp. Sanctity is 2-5% normal damage multiplier and 12-15% of the holy part and that is topped with 15% of the Vengeance. With so many % multipliers big numbers get much bigger then it would look like from gear upgrades/buffs.

Sidenote - this great scaling is somehow a problem for starting ret pallies. Starting point for this scaling is not that great and in small scale PvE (5 and 10 man) most of the buffs that can mulitply it are not even granted. I'm not saying it should be changed, but it's very noticable thing that supports the image of retribution as not viable DPS.
#1064SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Pitbuller
How big dps boost 1str actually give. I tested with MaxDps spreadsheet and I didnt see "Ret paladin scaling is one of the best in game ". Its better than feral druid but worser than any dual wielders. Or am I missing something relevant?
#1065SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mearis
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Why are they doing it even if it is 100% obvious the raid DPS will suffer from it? Thats just plain stupid stuff. Sorry to say, but if your raid leaders cant understand what it means to gain 50-150% more damage for that 1 WF group slot and by that increase raid DPS even more due sanctity aura and such. Its just plain idiotic to not put you in WF group if you are in raid.
There is also the non-trivial point that being in a shaman group will get you heroism - and a 30% damage increase is obviously better for a rogue. I guess min/maxing absolutely would be shifting the ret paladin out for heroism, then back in after.

That said, this is about as good a fight for melees as you can:

Loading...

Arihant had battleshout, leader of the pack.
Rogues had windfury, heroism, battleshout.

We had a survival hunter and a bloodfrenzy warrior both in the raid.

Here are also some really dumb Gorefiend wipes, but on those parses Arihant had an enh shaman:

Wow Web Stats

I also want to adress something that a lot of people brought up in this thread recently. Arihant recently has respec'd a lot back and forth since one of our holy paladins recently moved back to help his old guild, and we have been fairly pressed for healers, even though we have been trying to recruit some more shamans for sometime.

If your guild is excellent for DPS and you are one of the top healers, understand why asking to spec ret might be a tough sell. Hopefully guild bank is intelligent enough to fund your respecs, but a lot of time one extra healer is a lot more valuable than one extra DPS, expecially if you have extra DPS that end up sitting out a lot on raids.

In the end this is a team game, raid leaders should try to accomodate everyone's desires to play whatever spec they want, but the main priority is always killing the boss.

Last edited by Mearis : 11/30/07 at 5:19 AM.
#1066SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raika
Originally Posted by Mearis
There is also the non-trivial point that being in a shaman group will get you heroism - and a 30% damage increase is obviously better for a rogue. I guess min/maxing absolutely would be shifting the ret paladin out for heroism, then back in after.
Is 30% attack speed really going to benefit rogues more? Given that such a high percentage of their damage is yellow, I think the auto attack reliant ret paladin would have far more to gain. This may be slightly different on alliance, as I'm not 100% sure if SoC benefits from Blood Lust or not, given how it works with haste.
#1067SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by Raika View Post
Is 30% attack speed really going to benefit rogues more? Given that such a high percentage of their damage is yellow, I think the auto attack reliant ret paladin would have far more to gain. This may be slightly different on alliance, as I'm not 100% sure if SoC benefits from Blood Lust or not, given how it works with haste.
Rogues have a *slightly* higher % of white damage than paladins. And yes, SoC doesn't benefit from it. With SoB though, I'd venture as far as to say, a paladin may get more out of Bloodlust than any other dps class. Haste scaling with SoB is incredible.
#1068SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by Raika View Post
Is 30% attack speed really going to benefit rogues more? Given that such a high percentage of their damage is yellow, I think the auto attack reliant ret paladin would have far more to gain. This may be slightly different on alliance, as I'm not 100% sure if SoC benefits from Blood Lust or not, given how it works with haste.
Rogues also tipically wear a lot more haste gear, and haste feeds them through combat potency procs. Paladins on the other hand can pop AW during heroism - would be interesting to see who benefits more, but I strongly suspect its the rogues.
#1069SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Grokir
I've been following this thread for the past few days, and have one question that I'm sure has been answered (I probably just missed it).

Soon I will have my Lionheart Executioner and will need a nice and shiny enchant on it, Mongoose is what seemed obvious, but I am questioning whether the Executioner enchant is actually better. thnx for any replies and sorry if this has already been answered.
#1070SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ignus
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Here's some WWS reports of my first night as (hopefully) a full time Ret Paladin:

Gurtogg Bloodboil (no Windfury, no Battle Shout) - Wow Web Stats
Teron Gorefiend (only Windfury) - Wow Web Stats
High Warlord Naj'entus (ideal melee DPS group) - Wow Web Stats

Take a look at my relative position throughout the night. First place with a nearly ideal melee DPS group (Windfury / SoE, Improved Battle Shout, LotP), middle of the pack (but competitive) with just the Shaman present, and near the bottom of the pile with a group with no group buffs at all. That should give you a pretty decent idea of what exactly group placement does for a Retribution Paladin.

Edit: Even using some very simple math it's easy to see who benefits the most from melee totems. Let's look at mine and (the Rogue from my WWS report) Kouheii's Armory profiles:

The World of Warcraft Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

My average, unbuffed, pre-armor weapon swing is 1080.5 damage. Kouheii's average, unbuffed, pre-armor main hand swing is 595 damage. Regular, unimproved Windfury procs would be for 1201.29 damage for me, and 680.82 damage for him. I gain 63.23 DPS, he gains 50.43 DPS. Paladin wins.

Strength of Earth will give me 239 attack power after Kings and Divine Strength. Strength of Earth Totem will give him 109 attack power after Kings. Paladin wins.

Unleashed Rage will give me 197.8 attack power. Unleashed Rage will give him 173.4 attack power. Paladin wins.

The scale tips more in our favor if we are fully raid buffed, as well. I'm of course not trying to say that Retribution Paladins are better than Rogues, but that we gain more out of Shaman buffs than they do. And if you have to choose between Rogue 3 in the melee DPS group and your only Retribution Paladin, the choice should be pretty easy.


I think the comparison of the first 2 WWS's really says it all. with windfury, you did 10,000 more damage in a 3 minute fight than you did without windfury in a 7 minute fight.
#1071SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0orkyben
Wow......just wow.

I'm in a 3/6 SSC and 1/4 TK guild with both Maggy and Gruul on farm, just to give you an idea of progress and avaliable gear. I had my first raid as Retribution last night on our "Gruul and Maggy" weekly raid, after much time gearing up and convincing the officers it might work.

I was in the perfect melee group, Fury Warrior, Feral Druid, Enh. Shaman and a Rogue. Mana was a slight issue throughtout the fights, nothing a Mana Potion couldn't solve however. Aggro, well, this was an issue. Despite having Salvation and the 30% threat Reduction from talents I was still capped behind the off-tank on Gruul, and on Maggy I pushed to 123% of the tanks aggro before I decided it was time to back off and look sexy for 30 seconds.

Damage though, wow. I topped the damage meters on both boss encounters, and topped the DPS as well. I hit 1007dps on Gruul despite being held back by the off-tanks aggro. I had Haste Potions in my bags ready to pop, and I couldn't, I even had to skip an Avenging Wrath because of threat as well...not to mention the occassional backing off, counting to 10, before re-engaging. Was even top on Magtheridon, despite being on box clicking duty.

I'm not sure if Armory is functioning yet, but I am in mainly PVP/crafted gear, with just one piece on T4; certainly outgeared by some of the higher geared players present last night.

It was absolutely incredible. Safe to say the Rogues, Mages and Warlocks in my guild are NOT happy at the moment.

Thanks again for this thread and especially for the spreadsheets!

<3 Retribution!
#1072SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by Ignus View Post
I think the comparison of the first 2 WWS's really says it all. with windfury, you did 10,000 more damage in a 3 minute fight than you did without windfury in a 7 minute fight.
They are completely different fights.

Teron is a DPS burn fight with no aggro thresholds whatsoever. Gurtogg everyone except hunters is immensely threat capped, since there are multiple knockbacks and there is some horrendous damage going around. Gurtogg is pretty much a healing fight, DPS is trivial there as long as your healing is good

Of course windfury is a big boost, but the two fights are hardly comparable in any way.

For reference, my guild is further back than Imperatoris, but check out those parses:
Wow Web Stats - Teron, 8 healers, 21000 DPS
Loading... - Gurtogg, 8 healers, 14000 DPS

We had ~6000 more raid DPS on Teron, but look at the amount of healing required in both fights.
#1073SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Originally Posted by Grokir View Post
Soon I will have my Lionheart Executioner and will need a nice and shiny enchant on it, Mongoose is what seemed obvious, but I am questioning whether the Executioner enchant is actually better. thnx for any replies and sorry if this has already been answered.
Mongoose was what I used to use, but I just got a Cataclysm's Edge tonight and I decided to put Executioner on it. Executioner sounds better and better as it's researched more fully in the thread dedicated to it, and I'm fairly sure that an Executioner enchant's ~5% damage increase for the duration of a proc will do more than the 4 and a bit crit gained from a Mongoose proc, even when Executioner only works on ~75% of our damage. Not to mention, Armor penetration stacks with Armor penetration really well.
#1074SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Theras
Originally Posted by Ignus View Post
I think the comparison of the first 2 WWS's really says it all. with windfury, you did 10,000 more damage in a 3 minute fight than you did without windfury in a 7 minute fight.
That's not really a valid conclusion. I specifically said to look at the relative performance, since absolute performance is pretty meaningless across different types of fights. DPS'ing on Gurtogg is pretty downright scary because of threat and positioning issues, while Naj'entus and Teron Gorefiend are nothing but an exercise in perfecting your cycle. Then you have to take into account elements of movement like on Gurtogg, and the shield Naj'entus throws up and the spines he impales you with that cut into DPS time.

The only thing that's constant across the three fights is that everybody has those issues, so you'd expect relative positions to stay similar if nothing else changes.

Last edited by Theras : 11/30/07 at 9:36 AM.
#1075SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by Theras View Post

The only thing that's constant across the three fights is that everybody has those issues, so you'd expect relative positions to stay similar if nothing else changes.
Hmm, I disagree. Some fights favour some players a lot more than others - rogues have vanish, mages invisibility, so classes with an aggro wipe do much better on fights like Gurtogg compared to Teron. Shadowpriests end up massively threat capped early on both Teron and Najentus because of VE healing aggro.

I expect that the ratio of rogue/ret paladin damage varies wildly between Teron and Gurtogg.
#1076SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
I didn't really feel like it would be that pronounced of a difference, but perhaps you're right. After all, I've only been doing this for a grand total of four hours in any serious fashion. I just wish our DPS Warrior had stayed in the raid, since their mechanics and scaling are very similar to ours.
#1077SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nemcova
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
There is also the non-trivial point that being in a shaman group will get you heroism - and a 30% damage increase is obviously better for a rogue. I guess min/maxing absolutely would be shifting the ret paladin out for heroism, then back in after.

That said, this is about as good a fight for melees as you can:

Loading...

Arihant had battleshout, leader of the pack.
Rogues had windfury, heroism, battleshout.

We had a survival hunter and a bloodfrenzy warrior both in the raid.

Here are also some really dumb Gorefiend wipes, but on those parses Arihant had an enh shaman:

Wow Web Stats

I also want to adress something that a lot of people brought up in this thread recently. Arihant recently has respec'd a lot back and forth since one of our holy paladins recently moved back to help his old guild, and we have been fairly pressed for healers, even though we have been trying to recruit some more shamans for sometime.

If your guild is excellent for DPS and you are one of the top healers, understand why asking to spec ret might be a tough sell. Hopefully guild bank is intelligent enough to fund your respecs, but a lot of time one extra healer is a lot more valuable than one extra DPS, expecially if you have extra DPS that end up sitting out a lot on raids.

In the end this is a team game, raid leaders should try to accomodate everyone's desires to play whatever spec they want, but the main priority is always killing the boss.
I was actually asked to give ret a try, the guild master approached me and i agreed to try. Ive caught alot of flak since taking the offer, but im enjoying the challenege, i just dont think im getting a fair chance, in 2 weeks time, i havent been able to get into a shaman group yet.

its the truth, i was one of the top healers in the guild, on most boss fights i would take the hard assignments. but by not means are we amazing on dps. i have the potential to bring something to the table in regards to raid dps, but they just dont seem to wanna give me a fair shot. im guessin they think imma get frustrated and ask to go back to holy. but i have pretty darn good gear and i know i can keep up.
#1078SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
Here's an example of gurtogg vs teron, ~same group composition expect the feral druid in teron

Loading...
Me and the fury warrior threatcapped here _without_ windfury expect on insignificance phases

Wow Web Stats
Teron, no threatcap really
#1079SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prepared
I have a WWS that folks might want to look at. The night before last, we cleared SSC and tried to kill Vashj for the second time (first was two weeks prior, and we blamed our rustiness on our long downtime, and the abundance of people new to the fight).

At tries 7 and 8, our Enhancement Shaman spec'd to Elemental in order to kite the Striders because the Hunter assigned to it was ill, and he admitted it was likely affecting his performance. So for the duration of both of those attempts we lost WF (because the Resto shaman either was dead and unable to drop the totem, busy healing, or was dropping Grounding Totem), but gained Battle Shout because our DPS warrior was taken off the elementals and put on Nagas.

You can see the marked decrease in my DPS, and also Xarius (the arms warrior), but see the very minor change to the rogue's DPS (Hamilax).

Wow Web Stats

For reference, my flask did run out at some point, but I honestly can't pinpoint it. It was a long night, and I didn't even pop it until we were halfway through Leo's trash (I think).
#1080SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kasi
The number about 3 minutes vs 7 minutes for the Naj vs Bloodboil encounter isn't exactly valid because the WWS for the parse that night was screwed up for Naj. Look at it and you see only 1.9 million damage. I think what Theras showed KP the other night was that in a melee group he could put out dps that competed with our best melee. (hey )

For analysis of that fight, provided you don't get ghosted on Teron or Spined on Naj or Fel raged on Bloodboil the best fight of the 3 to test your dps is Teron. Very hard to overcome threat of the MT and you get full dps time. Naj is pretty close, just that the numbers get decreased a bit due to the shield going up every minute. Threat btw for our guild (and our shadow priests) is not a concern on either of those fights, and that is with full use of VE/VT. Bloodboil is different though, and being threat capped comes much easier to them. I pretty much have to drop tranquil air constantly for the SP in my group.

I have noticed that as our guild has gotten further into T6 melee is pulling a bit out in front (I am an elemental shaman) and I've noticed from parses of other guilds that many T6 guilds run with 2 enhancement shamans. So at some point I might switch over to that if its better. Which is odd since our guild for a while has been pretty caster heavy, but just the mechanics of T6 content favor melee over ranged for the most part.
#1081SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
The number about 3 minutes vs 7 minutes for the Naj vs Bloodboil encounter isn't exactly valid because the WWS for the parse that night was screwed up for Naj. Look at it and you see only 1.9 million damage.
Oh wow, I absolutely forgot about that bug. There's an issue right now with the Naj'entus encounter where the AE somehow bugs out and causes a log split into two "attempts" even though we only fought him once. You have to combine the first and second "attempts" to get the whole picture. I believe this should be a slightly more accurate split.

Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
I have noticed that as our guild has gotten further into T6 melee is pulling a bit out in front (I am an elemental shaman) and I've noticed from parses of other guilds that many T6 guilds run with 2 enhancement shamans. So at some point I might switch over to that if its better.
This would make my day. Unleashed Rage would be easily as good as a second Improved Battle Shout - if not better - for the melee group, not to mention the boost we'd get to Windfury attacks and Strength of Earth totem. That is probably quite a bit more significant than 101 spell damage and 3% spell crit (the former which can be done by a Restoration Shaman).
#1082SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tiffana
Is anyone reworking the spreadsheet for the 2.3.2 changes? I'd like to see how the shift to AP focus is affecting how our skills break down in terms of % damage output.

Is SoC and JoC being reduced, with the focus being on auto-attack and crusader strike? If so, armor pen and haste suddenly got a lot more attractive.
#1083SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Raika
Is there really any point that armor piercing would surpass mongoose for ret? As in, you have >x armor piercing on your gear, making executioner possibly better? Based on what I've seen, 4.8% crit + 2% haste > 840 armor piercing no matter how much you stack, which doesn't quite seem right - Maybe I'm not looking at the data correctly?

I also couldn't find (even on the executioner/mongoose thread) a solid Proc rate/up time for executioner, has anyone seen some good data floating around? The best I got was between .75 and 1.47 or something, which is quite a big range for ppm.

Last edited by Raika : 12/01/07 at 4:02 PM.
#1084SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Zurm
nvm

Last edited by Zurm : 12/02/07 at 12:37 AM.
#1085SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Minor clarification, I'm pretty sure mongoose is 3% haste.
No it isn't. Lightning Speed - Spells - World of Warcraft
#1086SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Originally Posted by Raika View Post
Is there really any point that armor piercing would surpass mongoose for ret? As in, you have >x armor piercing on your gear, making executioner possibly better? Based on what I've seen, 4.8% crit + 2% haste > 840 armor piercing no matter how much you stack, which doesn't quite seem right - Maybe I'm not looking at the data correctly?
Crit% doesn't directly equal +%dmg though.
#1087SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tiffana
Originally Posted by Raika View Post
Is there really any point that armor piercing would surpass mongoose for ret? As in, you have >x armor piercing on your gear, making executioner possibly better? Based on what I've seen, 4.8% crit + 2% haste > 840 armor piercing no matter how much you stack, which doesn't quite seem right - Maybe I'm not looking at the data correctly?

I also couldn't find (even on the executioner/mongoose thread) a solid Proc rate/up time for executioner, has anyone seen some good data floating around? The best I got was between .75 and 1.47 or something, which is quite a big range for ppm.
Theres a solid analysis of Executioner up, and IIRC the roags have determined that its much better then Mongoose for sustained DPS.

We're in a pretty similar situation to them now, 75% of our damage (more now that JoC will get no boosts from +Dmg on our gear, because we won't be stacking +Dmg) is physical and Armour Pen just stacks so very very well.
#1088SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
Don't forget that Mongoose scales with Kings, giving you 132agility which is 5.28% crit.

Since most Ret Paladins will not be stacking ArP because it's not as good as Strength, all you're looking at is a 5.6% increase in dps on Crusader Strike and Auto-attack when Executioner procs, as opposed to having Mongoose give 5.28% crit on all your abilities and 2% haste for your autoattack (and Seal of Blood, if applicable).

Every spreadsheet I use Mongoose always comes up on top, unless I specifically gimp my other stats to get more ArP, which is also results in lower dps.

Which is a real shame since Executioner looks badass.
#1089SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raika
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
Crit% doesn't directly equal +%dmg though.
While that's true, the 2% haste seems that it would put it over the top anyway.

However, if I can find any real excuse I'm going to go with executioner when I get my T3 lionheart because it looks better :x
#1090SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dolamroth
So what is better for raid dps on your 2h? Sav mon or Ex?
#1091SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
Originally Posted by Dolamroth View Post
So what is better for raid dps on your 2h? Sav mon or Ex?
For Paladins (and not necessarily all classes), Mongoose is always slightly better than Executioner unless you stack an absurd amount of armor penetration. Thing is, stacking currently available armor penetration gear tends to yield lower DPS than a straight str/crit setup, so that's kind of a dumb idea.

Both enchants are better than Savagery. Savagery is a great budget enchant, though!
#1092SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Originally Posted by Raika View Post
However, if I can find any real excuse I'm going to go with executioner when I get my T3 lionheart because it looks better :x
This was also part of my reasoning for getting Executioner on Cataclysm, though the pre-existing 335 armor pen is an advantage there. I may get the leggings from Gurtogg for even more armor pen to complete the ensemble. It's not supremely optimal but it's fairly nice, I feel. Those leggings are str/crit/penetration as well, after all... depends on if they drop before ~4 more weeks of Arena pass, or I'll just use Vengeful.
#1093SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dolamroth
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
For Paladins (and not necessarily all classes), Mongoose is always slightly better than Executioner unless you stack an absurd amount of armor penetration. Thing is, stacking currently available armor penetration gear tends to yield lower DPS than a straight str/crit setup, so that's kind of a dumb idea.

Both enchants are better than Savagery. Savagery is a great budget enchant, though!
TyVM this Thread is Awesome guys keep the good info flowing!!
#1094SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
As a side note, I've always wondered a bit why Seal of Command hasn't been "normalized" yet. Like, the scaling proc rate is removed and normalized to a stable 40% or 50% chance, since the scaling encourages extremely slow weapons in the same way old Strike mechanics did, and leads to the exact same situations; 3.8 speed weapons starkly superior to higher DPS, otherwise better (but nevertheless slightly faster) weapons.
#1095SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
As a side note, I've always wondered a bit why Seal of Command hasn't been "normalized" yet. Like, the scaling proc rate is removed and normalized to a stable 40% or 50% chance, since the scaling encourages extremely slow weapons in the same way old Strike mechanics did, and leads to the exact same situations; 3.8 speed weapons starkly superior to higher DPS, otherwise better (but nevertheless slightly faster) weapons.
Lets hope that never happens.

If SoC would be normalized to the default 2h multiplier of 3.3 speed, every single alliance ret paladin using any decent weapon what-so-ever (speeds 3.5-3.8) will be hit by a massive nerf bat.


My assumptions why it's not normalized:

-It's not an on demand instant attack, rather a random occurrence instant proc. There's a significant difference here in how reliably this can be used in PVP for example.

-As far as I know, all melee "procs" are not weapon speed normalized for all classes, correct me if I'm wrong here.

-After SoC damage was reduced to 70%, it would be an overly penalizing measure to further weapon speed normalize it.

-A further, very significant separation between SoB dps and SoC dps.

-Game variation: Otherwise all warriors and all paladins would be aiming for the same weapons always.
#1096SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gormal
I don't find that its hard to stack ArP with a careful selection of gear. I picked up three of the new heroic badge rewards and some other pieces and have been toying around between my plain str/crit gear and stacking ArP. The difference for me comes out to 30AP and 3.66% crit, which is negligible when I can get nearly 650 ArP. I don't have Executioner on my weapon since I still have use it for PvP, but it should be a substantial DPS increase even if I do fill out my non-ArP set with a little better gear.

1976 AP
28.04 Crit
647 ArP

vs.

2016 AP
31.70 Crit
0 ArP

[Dory's Embrace]
[Vindicator's Band of Triumph]
[Choker of Serrated Blades]
[Chain of Unleashed Rage]
[Eternium Rage-shackles]
#1097SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
-A further, very significant separation between SoB dps and SoC dps.
It doesn't have to be a nerf, and frankly for the most part all warriors and Paladins are already aiming for the same weapons when it comes to two-handers. It's not like there's that much variety, the only fast-ish weapons are the Halberd from naj'entus and Cataclysm's Edge, and a few fairly common 3.5 weapons from the playhouse in Karazhan.

I was just noting it was one of the oddities of Paladins that remained, and was very similar to many that had been stomped out ages ago.

Besides, they could standardize it to 50% proc to equalize the ability with blood.
#1098SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
I don't find that its hard to stack ArP with a careful selection of gear.
Yes, but isn't the the 3.7% crit and 30 AP still more damage then the 650 ArP because of vengeance and relentless earthstorm?
#1099SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Yes, but isn't the the 3.7% crit and 30 AP still more damage then the 650 ArP because of vengeance and relentless earthstorm?
Depends. Armor pen gets better the less armor the boss has. So if you're attacking a very squishy boss who has say 1000 armor, knocking her down to 350 is gonna be a huge DPS increase. On the contrary, knocking a boss from 10000 to 9350 is going to be a very marginal increase.
#1100SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
realistically, you can model almost all bosses as starting from 6200 or 7700 armor. Common armor debuffs are -2600 for sunders, - 610 for Faerie Fire, -800 for Recklessness. So for most bosses, you'll be attacking a target with -4000 armor, -3200 if you don't use Recklessness. That means you attack a target with 2200 armor, 3000 without reck, or 3700, 4500 without reck.
#1101SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
jokermn
This evening I had my first raid as Retri Paladin check the WWS (Wow Web Stats) thanks for all the nice tips in this thread. Hopefully I showed my guild that I can compete. I had problems keeping my seals up. So there is a bit lack of damage where I did not use seal of blood because I judged on GCD. Maybe this improves with experience! Are there any more tips you can give checking my stats?

// Edit:

Yes I use a resealmakro. Maybe I should not spam it :/
Furthermore, why is conceration (Weihe) not listed in my damage?

Last edited by jokermn : 12/02/07 at 7:10 PM.
#1102SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0whut.
Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
This evening I had my first raid as Retri Paladin check the WWS (Wow Web Stats) thanks for all the nice tips in this thread. Hopefully I showed my guild that I can compete. I had problems keeping my seals up. So there is a bit lack of damage where I did not use seal of blood because I judged on GCD. Maybe this improves with experience! Are there any more tips you can give checking my stats?
You have a macro for Judge/Re-seal, right?

Oh and is there any way to look at that WWS in english?
#1103SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Oxudes
Wow Web Stats

Well, just wanted to share it with you guys, no particular reason - I usually raid as prot, yesterday one lock said he doesn't want gruul and they needed some dps, I grabbed my dusty ret gear and hopped in (forgetting a dps trink, so i had darkmoon: madness on). Also, I'd like to point out I still don't have the libram from BF (got fed up cause it wouldn't drop).

Anyway, as pre 2.3 ret, I'm really surprised at what the changes have done (was ret before, went prot cause we lacked tanks at that point). Threat was no longer an issue, CS is ungodly even now. Even mana wasn't an issue (popped one pot and ended well over 70% mana). Also, the shaman in the group was resto, not enh :P.

I'm just happy cause I've made all the guildies that were laughing at me preraid shut up :P .
#1104SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gormal
With raid buffs, I don't have a problem keep vengeance up at all with around 30% crit. With our melee consistently beating our casters on dps, CoR has gotten priority over CoS/E. Since executioner gets even better with windfury, and ArP gets better as you stack more, executioner will be a substantial dps boost over a little bit of crit. I'm also a fan of the consistent and stable damage you get from AP/ArP over the more spikey damage/threat from a lot of crit. Now that we're in Hyjal/BT the gear available to me will push my attainable crit/AP up quite a bit higher so I'll have to reevaluate my choices, especially without having executioner currently.
#1105SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
How do you manage with only 4% hit? Or is your armoury showing off your pvp gear as opposed to your pve?
#1106SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
I tried not being hit capped one time by switching out a ring and helm... didn't go so well. I make sure im hit capped all the time, its the single biggest boost to your dps you can get.

As a side note, I actually do good dps even using a [World Breaker]. Naturally I'm currently looking for an upgrade, but Archimonde and RoS don't seem to like me very much, so I may just get a s3 weapon this week if it doesn't drop yet again.
#1107SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Gormal
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
How do you manage with only 4% hit? Or is your armoury showing off your pvp gear as opposed to your pve?
If I'm wearing full vindicator's without the afore-mentioned ArP items even on, its a pretty safe bet that I'm in PvP gear. I have 102 hit rating currently in my set with 647 ArP, plus the usual points in precision. I'm playing around with PvP specs right now, but I'm usually 5/8/48.

Last edited by Gormal : 12/03/07 at 5:20 AM.
#1108SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Secor
Armor pen isnt too difficult to stack its on some very pro items that dont gimp you. Akama gloves, bloodboil legs, primal wrath ring and archimonde sword at the least. Obviously thats close to 2k armor pen w/ an executioner proc running. And all those items are viable alternatives to what else can go in those slots even if you didnt care for the armor pen.
#1109SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Meuble
They might be viables, but they remain alternatives. I have the gurtogg leggards, I'll switch em anytime for archi ones. Akama gloves ain't worth mentionning, since our best gloves in game are so easy to get (s3), and so on... Archimonde's sword is good, but Torch will still be better. Of course, if it drops and you can get it, go for it. But it's not the best stuff out there for us, really.

edit: I was talking for SoC, refering on the stats cromfel posted... some pages ago. Still, it's not the Armor pen that make the difference on Cataclysm Edge :p

Last edited by Meuble : 12/03/07 at 2:21 PM.
#1110SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
They might be viables, but they remain alternatives. I have the gurtogg leggards, I'll switch em anytime for archi ones. Akama gloves ain't worth mentionning, since our best gloves in game are so easy to get (s3), and so on... Archimonde's sword is good, but Torch will still be better. Of course, if it drops and you can get it, go for it. But it's not the best stuff out there for us, really.
From my toying around with the spreadsheet, wearing ZERO armor penetration otherwise, the [Cataclysm's Edge] comes out above [Torch of the Damned] all the time for SoB. You can see my gear in my armory, I should be logged out in my ret gear for the next few days.
#1111SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
That's odd. From any spreadsheet I use Torch is always the best for SOBlood, due to the crit and haste.
Armor penetration does absolutely nothing for either seal so it's a nonfactor.

And to you guys claiming Executioner is better than Mongoose... it isn't. The 5.6% increased dps is assuming that COR/5Sunders/FF are all applied on the boss. Since most bosses tend to have higher armor this isn't even an accurate estimate in how much Executioner helps.
5.28% crit (with kings) and 2% haste will beat 840armor penetration in terms of raid dps. Unless you specifically gimp your other stats (Strength, Crit, Haste), ArP will never be a good stat for a Paladin. And even if you do wear a lot of armor penetration your overall dps will go down since you've sacrificed too much.
#1112SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xellos
Went back to Teron again. Wow Web Stats

This time I wasn't threat capped. I can only assume that our MT was sleeping during our earlier attempt. I was pretty happy with the Teron and Anetheron results although I burned through mana pretty quick on Teron and didn't have BoM/BS for either Teron or Anetheron. Fortunately, Anetheron did enough raid damage for me to use haste potions most of the time (was a sloppy night in hyjal).

Looking at the WWS for the Anetheron kill, it shows a 30% miss rate for exorcism, whereas the it shows 9% for the entire night. Is this the norm or did WWS flake out on me?
#1113SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sapp
Bad luck + 17% resist rate for spells against bosses.
#1114SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ragnor
From my understanding it should be 17% vs a lvl 73, assuming you don't have precision (less if you do), so either you had an unlucky streak or it bugged.
#1115SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
That's odd. From any spreadsheet I use Torch is always the best for SOBlood, due to the crit and haste.
Armor penetration does absolutely nothing for either seal so it's a nonfactor.

And to you guys claiming Executioner is better than Mongoose... it isn't. The 5.6% increased dps is assuming that COR/5Sunders/FF are all applied on the boss. Since most bosses tend to have higher armor this isn't even an accurate estimate in how much Executioner helps.
5.28% crit (with kings) and 2% haste will beat 840armor penetration in terms of raid dps. Unless you specifically gimp your other stats (Strength, Crit, Haste), ArP will never be a good stat for a Paladin. And even if you do wear a lot of armor penetration your overall dps will go down since you've sacrificed too much.
I'm not saying your wrong but making a statement like this with no maths or calculations to back it up is a bit strange.

I haven't seen an 100% accurate spreadsheet for ret dps/itemization. Quite a few things need to be fixed in bellator's, it hasn't been updated in over a month! Also the author of maxdps.com has been updating bugs in his formulas every couple of days based on feedback on cromfel's forums.

Which spreadsheet/site are you using to arrive at this conclusion?
#1116SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
DarKNecross
I took some information from Meeks' Warrior DPS Spreadsheet to try and find an accurate "static" value of Mongoose/Executioner.
Unfortunately, it's far from perfect, but it gives me a rough estimation.
I built a mini program (we've been messing with Visual BASIC 2008 in class the past couple of days) to calculate the values.
Here's the current formula I've been using:
mongoose = 120 * (1 - (1 - (weaponSpeed / 60)) ^ (15 * ((1 / weaponSpeed * (1 - (6 - hitRating / 15.8) / 100 - (5.6 - expertiseRating * 0.25) / 100) + ((7 + 10 + 7) / 60) * 1.2))))
If hitRating >= 94.8 Then
   hitRating = 94.8
End If
"mongoose" is in static agility. Executioner is about the same, just change 120 with 840 and make it Armor Pen. It's not quite perfect yet, though.
With a 3.8 Speed Weapon, hit capped, and the 5 expertise racial, I've got 62 Agility and 434 ArmorPen.
This is fairly close to the 2PPM theory, but the downside is this assumes Mongoose and Executioner never Refresh themselves prematurely.
I took some info from Nuuga's MaxDps.com website to try and compare my outcomes.
My input vaules:
130 DPS Weapon; 3.8 Speed; 3500AP buffed; 96 hit rating; 39% crit; 50 haste rating; 0 armor penetration; 250 Spell Damage; BOSS mob; All boxes checked

When you figure that after Kings, the 62 agility becomes 68, you look at the "Extra Stat Contributions" and we get
(68 / 10) * 3.22 = 21.90
(434 / 100) * 4.87 = 21.14
Note that the website doesn't consider Windfury in the Contributions.

Now let's assume for a second you're using Cataclysm's Edge (335 Armor Pen, 3.5 Speed)
Mongoose changes to 66 agility and Executioner changes to 418. The new values from MaxDPS are below:
(66 / 10) * 3.19 = 21.05
(418 / 100) * 5.03 = 21.03

Just for the sake of argument, I'll change back to the 3.8 Speed weapon but use 600 Armor Penetration in the MaxDPS Calculation.
The values are back to 68 Agility and 434 Armor Pen, and the new MaxDPS numbers are below:
(68 / 10) * 3.32 = 22.58
(434 / 100) * 5.32 = 23.09

Assuming my calculations have a margin for error, as does the MaxDPS website, I'm still just going to have to say the better enchant is really whichever glow you like better. I will say it'd be nice to know the code Nuuga is using for his website, and what other buffs/debuffs are being accounted for. I'd assume there's no Blood Frenzy or other raid damage modifiers which would, in reality, increase the value of Executioner over Mongoose.

Last edited by DarKNecross : 12/04/07 at 12:01 PM.
#1117SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Agrippina
Here's a question that's been nagging at me - why does MaxDPS.com list strength as a stronger dmg coefficient for ret paladins even when not hit capped? (Point for point, rating for rating.) When I input my gear into bellator's spreadsheet hit is significantly stronger than strength until capped. MaxDPS seems to have a lot of weird things like that, for example it seems to undervalue crit/agi compared to Bellator's.
#1118SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Zurm
I, personally, have not be very happy with the MaxDPS site... I also find that it puts too much emphasis on spell damage, even after you indicate for it to use Seal of Blood as opposed to command. Also, I completely disagree with the weight it gives to armor penetration, but that's an ongoing argument in this thread so I won't totally discredit it for this given the fact that we have not come to a final agreement on the stat.

As for DarKNecross's post, I am just going to assume that is all for SoC (as you are human). Then again, would it even make a difference in the end considering Executioner only affects our white damage + cs? I guess the difference would be primarily in gear... wearing warrior gear myself and having virtually no spell damage, I can say that if those results are indeed accurate then executioner may in fact come out on top.

Regardless, I'm still not convinced... I personally find too many inaccuracies in both the spreadsheet and MaxDPS regarding executioner (and rightly so, its a new enchant so some research has to be done). What I'd like to see is comparative performance on something very standard... say two teron gorefiend fights where you live the whole time. None of these math formulas have convinced me yet because no one still really knows the proc rate on executioner for sure...at least AFAIK.

Last edited by Zurm : 12/04/07 at 3:21 PM.
#1119SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Renaud
Wow Web Stats

Here is my WWS report - I stayed in during pounding on VR (Like all the melee's do) so I got a crapload of mana back from incoming heals. On Magtheridon I was a clicker (so my uptime was jacked, and DPS/Total Damage were off a bit, and I died early)

Any recommendations from what you see offhand? I am sure there are ways for me to maximize my damage and increase my overall DPS significantly. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

(Number 3 on Damage for VR woowoo!)
#1120SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
Wow Web Stats

Here is my WWS report - I stayed in during pounding on VR (Like all the melee's do) so I got a crapload of mana back from incoming heals. On Magtheridon I was a clicker (so my uptime was jacked, and DPS/Total Damage were off a bit, and I died early)

Any recommendations from what you see offhand? I am sure there are ways for me to maximize my damage and increase my overall DPS significantly. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

(Number 3 on Damage for VR woowoo!)
I think if you attack from behind, you will see more DPS as nothing can parry an attack from behind. Also you might need a little more hit. If you aren't using a sword, find a suitable one as soon as possible as expertise lowers the mobs chance to dodge/parry. Other than that, it looks like you are throwing everything you have at bosses except exorcism.
#1121SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dram
He's a blood elf, his weapon doesn't matter. The 7.5% hit is a bit low, I was looking maybe just change the Ogre Slayer's Band for the Karazhan dps ring.
#1122SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SmegHead
Hey folks, been lurking this forum for a while.

I've been raiding as ret since I pretty much set foot in them 4 months ago..

Since 2.3 i'm hitting 3rd / 4th on the dps meter at a constant so long as WF is around (massive massive buff for me)...

Got some interesting WWS stats to show you


WWS Stats

Oh and check out the dps on this attempt ^^

Wow Web Stats

But yeah, i'm very pleased with 2.3...before I was at 5th/6th on dps (given my gear has improved since before 2.3) - The threat reduction was just a godsend.

My gear is decent (Full Merci) - And i'm using gear from SSC but that's it...not anywhere near Hyjal or BT for this damage.

I'm alliance by the way, so it's SoC and not SoB

Would give you an armoury page but everytime I try to go onto the WoW webby Firefox crashes :/

Can check it yourself though...just type in SmaegHead and look for the stormrage server.
#1123SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raika
Based on the low spell damage direction ret is going I'm starting to wonder if Crusade is still worth it... so.. in addition to me using Seal of Blood...
Which trinkets would be the best for me?
How does Dragonspine Trophy Compare to Darkmoon Card: Crusade, or even Tsunami Talisman (do SoB crits proc it?) and Berserker's Call (and Bloodlust Brooch)?

I don't really trust spreadsheets on the procs, and I have no idea how often Crusade really stays up in practice, or if SoB hits proc it; there are all kinds of little reasons I ask :x Anyone have experience with said trinkets?
#1124SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0DarKNecross
I guess it's still situational.
If I were to choose two trinkets to use instead of DMC:C it'd be Berserker's Call and DST.
#1125SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
For me personally, Crusade seems to go up to full stacks quite quickly, and stays on unless there's a major disruption (getting graved on Moro, etc). I intend to replace it with Berserker's Call once the next patch comes, and might do so even before, though it'd be a closer call, I think. My other trinket is the DST, I don't plan to replace it any time soon.
#1126SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Vamperica
Hello this is my first post on your nice forum. I was sent here for some ret theory crafting.

Could you take a look at my armory and tell me if my gemming and spec is ok

Also someone told me i should do one point into imp judgement so it doesnt mess up my rotation.

i got 3rd place on teron gorefiend last week but this week 10th i believe so doesnt make since to me i must be doing something wrong. My macros dont always readd my blessing like seal of blood so i have to spam it till it pops on.

/cast judgement
/cast seal of blood
is what i have.

But any possible help to increase my dps rotation and dmg would be appreciated.

i also went to maxdps.com and didnt understand why s3 gear besides pants and shoulders has such low dps rating i thought s3 was hot shit

i was looking to get arch pants and sword next.

Last edited by Vamperica : 12/05/07 at 7:01 AM.
#1127SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sorry
I'm using:

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Command
/startattack

and it works. Just remember that it won't cast the Seal if the global cd isn't up from a Crusader Strike for example.
#1128SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Vamperica View Post
i also went to maxdps.com and didnt understand why s3 gear besides pants and shoulders has such low dps rating i thought s3 was hot shit

i was looking to get arch pants and sword next.
As of now, maxdps.com only has alliance paladins covered... so its gonna overvalue spell damage greatly... s3 gear is some of the best... for the most part it seems to rank higher than t5, and slightly under t6 equiv... except for the gloves which are the best in the game...

Personally I am going to be using the Helm until Illidari Shatterer (why does it have to be so late in BT =[)

As for your macro... you should just need to slam a /stopcasting in there and it should be fine.

As for gems, you are well over hit cap... at 10.3% when you only need 8.6%, so you can replace some of your hit gems... might wanna put the proper gems in your belt since its basically free stamina.
Try to grab a band of devastation or an Ancestral Ring of Conquest if you happen to still run SSC, other than that you just need to perfect your cycle and understand how much concecrate / exorcism you can use to hit 0 mana at the end of a fight...

I am currently doing a lot better recently now that I got used to using multiple different ranks so that I could keep up a full cycle with some rank of concecrate at all times.

Must say though, I wish I had your luck in trinkets

Last edited by SomeoneRandom : 12/05/07 at 9:58 AM.
#1129SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Secor
Vamperica, a lot of that s3 gear uses its itemization for resilience. A bt/hyjal item doesnt need resilience allowing for more dps stats or stamina. The very best of the best raid drops will beat out s3. But s3 is great to use until you get those raid drops.
#1130SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
It's pretty important not to chain-jam the judge/reseal macro button. At best you'll waste mana on an extra Seal of Blood, at worst you'll put yourself in GCD when you should be judging. Have judgement up somewhere else on your bar and when it shows it's ready, push the macro button once (make sure you're not in GCD from something else as you do so). Voila! Perfection. I think if you get fancy enough with the macro you can prevent mistakes from pushing it more than once, but meh. I haven't needed to do so.

Another reason you may have posted so low the second week would be if you didn't have windfury. You can compete or do awfully entirely based on whether or not you have that one buff.
#1131SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Secor View Post
Vamperica, a lot of that s3 gear uses its itemization for resilience. A bt/hyjal item doesnt need resilience allowing for more dps stats or stamina. The very best of the best raid drops will beat out s3. But s3 is great to use until you get those raid drops.
It may use some itemization on resilience, but other than that it is PERFECTLY itemized for horde ret pallies... STR / Crit / Int, no wasted spell damage....

Also it is item level 146... which means other than Archimonde and Illidan loot it is FIVE LEVELS higher than anything you can get....

Also remember how itemization points work, the more stats there are on the item the more itemization points you use... hence Beast > Bear > STR in terms of how many itemization points you gain, so the added resilience really doesn't take all that much.

So yes... Tier 6 raid loot is better... but since items like Helm of the Illidari Shatterer are so late in BT, you will use s3 for a long time...
#1132SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Buanna
Is there any chance the maintainer of the DPS spreadsheet can add Ring enchantments? I know, clearly, the best would be stats, but I wonder at the numbers they'd produce.

Last edited by Buanna : 12/05/07 at 12:36 PM. Reason: figured out the new question on my own
#1133SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Vamperica View Post
Hello this is my first post on your nice forum. I was sent here for some ret theory crafting.

Could you take a look at my armory and tell me if my gemming and spec is ok
At the moment you have 20 hit rating more then you need, you only need ~90 with precision, you could change the hit gem in your chest.
#1134SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ragnor
Originally Posted by Buanna View Post
Is there any chance the maintainer of the DPS spreadsheet can add Ring enchantments? I know, clearly, the best would be stats, but I wonder at the numbers they'd produce.
2 weapon damage > 4 all stats for pve imo

Edit:

Striking..
[+wep damage] / [weapon speed] * [14] = AP
2 / 3.5 * 14 = 8AP

4 All stats..
str * divine str mod * bok mod * (1 str = 2 ap)
4 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 2 = 9.68
4 agi = some tiny amount of crit

So indeed 4 stats is better.

Last edited by Ragnor : 12/05/07 at 7:10 PM.
#1135SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dyermaker
I am wondering if anyone has reviewed the 2.3.2 changes? How do the changes to Crusader Strike change the itemization priorities? Obviously it diminishes the value of Spell Damage even further and raises the PvE value of the s3 gloves. But what does it do to Armor Penetration? Would this be the item that tips the scales between Mongoose and Executioner enchants?
#1136SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Dyermaker View Post
I am wondering if anyone has reviewed the 2.3.2 changes? How do the changes to Crusader Strike change the itemization priorities? Obviously it diminishes the value of Spell Damage even further and raises the PvE value of the s3 gloves. But what does it do to Armor Penetration? Would this be the item that tips the scales between Mongoose and Executioner enchants?
Right now CS does Weapon Damage + 40% spell damage. In 2.3.2 CS does 110% weapon damage.

Its a gain of 10% of your weapon damage and loss of 40% of your spell damage. For most Paladins this will be a marginal decrease in CS damage.

However, both the new and old versions of CS deal all physical damage. Therefore, whatever bonus you were getting from your armor pen on CS now will remain the same (e.x. if you were gaining 5% more CS damage pre-2.3.2 you will still gain 5% more in 2.3.2). Since most people will see a small decrease in CS damage, I would assume Executioner would be less useful because of this change. The Mongoose proc will always provide you with the same additional crit, but the value of the armor penetration goes down if you're dealing less damage (5% more on a 1000 CS is a larger gain than 5% more on a 900 CS).

As for the season 3 gloves, they are undisputably the best gloves in the game and the change to CS does not change this at all.
#1137SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Anarkii
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
2 weapon damage > 4 all stats for pve imo
Not even close. 4 stats is better by a significant margin.
#1138SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
I'm using:

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Command
/startattack

and it works. Just remember that it won't cast the Seal if the global cd isn't up from a Crusader Strike for example.
Here is the macro I use which helps so I can smash the judge reseal button without the wasting mana on extra seals:

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command(rank 5)

Be careful however to time your resealing with you swings. I use quartz and I make sure I am judging/resealing during swing downtime.
#1139SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Dram View Post
He's a blood elf, his weapon doesn't matter. The 7.5% hit is a bit low, I was looking maybe just change the Ogre Slayer's Band for the Karazhan dps ring.
I thought that blood elf pallys had a sword specialization racial...
#1140SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I thought that blood elf pallys had a sword specialization racial...
Nope, that's humans. Humans get sword and mace specialization.
#1141SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0noth
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I thought that blood elf pallys had a sword specialization racial...
belfs get like, 5 to all resists, mana stealing, the aoe slience, and 5 JC points.

As an aside, I don't think you ACTUALLY need the /stopcasting part in your seal/judge macro. you DO need to wait until the GCD is up before hitting it, though. I thought /stopcasting stopped actually DOING anything when 2.3 went live?
#1142SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Renaud
Correct me if I'm wrong, but /stopcasting still will stop casting whatever spell you are currently casting. If you are casting a heal and click a macro w/ /stopcasting in it, it should stop that spell and do whatever is in the macro. I used a /stopcasting /cast Holy Light macro for a while for healing the MT. I would reclick it after 1.5 seconds or so of the cast if it was going to be 100% overheal (Unless it was a fight where the tank takes crazy burst damage of course).

But as of 2.3 I believe that /stopcasting in a macro (following an ability or item that does not cause the GCD to activate) is not a neccessity.
#1143SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0noth
Right, that's what I meant, sorry it wasn't clear.
#1144SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Not even close. 4 stats is better by a significant margin.
Well it's not that far off depending on your weapon speed.. 2 weapon damage = 8 AP for a 3.5 speed weapon however 4 All Stats = 9.68 AP after bok and divine str and a small amount of crit.

So indeed it's better including buffs/talents.
#1145SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Vamperica
hey thanks for the tips guys. But what about only putting one point into imp judgement so it doesnt interupt your rotation, someone suggested that to me. Is there any truth to this.

and i guess i can remove some hit.

and should i lv1 fart fire between swings too?

also i got a 8259 cs crit on those big demons on the way to mother shaz and a 7031 white crit. i think she inlarged me.

I was second or first on shaz till i got fa and it ruined my whole rotation and just got chain silenced after that.

I was a sad panda ;(

Last edited by Vamperica : 12/05/07 at 8:21 PM.
#1146SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vamperica
thanks for the macros works like a charm

#showtooltip Seal of Blood(Rank 1)
/castsequence reset=9 Judgement, Seal of Blood(Rank 1)
#1147SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Pitbuller
4 stats is also 4agi that makes it almoust double better than 2weapon damage. And 4 * int + sta + spi for free
#1148SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0DarKNecross
Honestly, I wouldn't recommend using a macro for Judgements and Seals. At best, it saves you from clicking another button. At worst, it'll throw your rotation off, eat extra mana, and overall harm your DPS.
Putting only 1 point in Imp Judgement would help prevent you from accidentally doing a Judge and Reseal which would trigger a GCD and delay your Crusader Strike, but if you're paying attention you don't really need it.
I'd also recommend Mongoose or Executioner over Savagery. While with Savagery you see the extra attack power on your character sheet, it doesn't make it better than procs.
#1149SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gormal
The whole one less point in improved judgement spiel is that you can use a rotation where your dps is the same as if you had one second less betwen CD's. Having 2/2 gives you a larger margin for error, and is good if you intend to pvp at all. All it really does is free up a talent point that you can use elsewhere. Executioner and mongoose are the better PvE enchants, but again, if you want to PvP at all, the constant AP from savagery is still the most popular way to go.

As far as using consecrate, you should drop at least a rank 1 any time you can depending on your rotation and the fight. Rank 1 should equate to an extra 50dps if you keep it up at all times, and depending on available mana you can uprank quite often. I tend to use rank 3 as much as I think I can get away with it until I dip too low on the blue bar. Saving a little mana and using a higher rank while you have avenging wrath up is always a good idea as well, just like coordinating on-use trinkets with AW is a good idea. Since AW is a percentage boost, using it in conjunction with bloodlust, trinkets, haste potions, or whatever else is there for you will always help your dps a lot.
#1150SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
After following this thread for a while, I still don't understand the 1/2 imp judgement thing... Many times you'll be able to judge+CS and reseal after and not lose ANY DPS, as your next white swing will only happen after you reseal. In other words, you don't need a 100% seal uptime, but rather having the seal up every time a white swing connects. With a slow weapon, it's not unlikely to have something like:
0.00: white swing
0.5: judgement is up - use it
1: Crusader strike is up - use it
2.5: GCD is up - reseal
3-4 depending on weapon speed: Next melee swing
Is this fact taken into account when theorycrafting the 2/2 vs 1/2 improved judgement cycles?
#1151SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Buanna
1/2 Improved Judgement is generally a loss of DPS over 2/2.

The absolute worst case scenario with 2/2 is that every 24 seconds, you make a white hit without a seal being active. To throw out some numbers, based on my gear, that would be a loss of 12 dps if I instead only judged every 9 seconds.

However, that worst case isn't really possible in the real world given my swing speed. The most likely case (if I'm not paying attention) is that I'm dropping one proc chance every 72 seconds, making 2/2 a 5 DPS increase over 1/2.

If I am paying attention, all I have to do is not Judge if I'm going to swing in the next 1.5 seconds. Doing that still averages me a 10 DPS increase over 1/2.

So in my specific case, that one talent point is giving me 10 DPS. Is a talent worth 10 DPS? I like to think so, because where else would that talent point go?
#1152SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Gormal
Rather than just throwing out some arbitrary numbers, why not punch up the dps cycle spreadsheet on page 1? It sounds like you're judging every time its up regardless of the GCD, and assuming that its the best way to do things. Example 4 in the spreadsheet uses a 9-second Judgement cooldown and shows a 28dps increase versus the 8 second cooldown rotation used in example 1.

Last edited by Gormal : 12/06/07 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Grammar
#1153SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Buanna
My numbers come directly from the spreadsheet. Well, technically the spreadsheet says I gain 13 DPS with an 8 second cooldown over a 9, but it's not smart enough to realize I might wait 9.5 seconds to judge Blood once every 72 seconds.
#1154SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Regardless, the increase in DPS from 1/2 Improved Judgement is very very small. There isn't much else you can put it in (Improved BoM is for raidbitch holydins IMO) and it does offer a lot more versatility when it comes to rejudging multiple targets. If you absolutely must maximize your DPS to the greatest degree you can do it, but typically I would just sink the extra talent point in it. Its not a huge loss or gain either way.
#1155SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
I've yet to see a spreadsheet that makes a weapon-speed based rotation that would take into account not judging if GCD would interrupt seal dmg and judging when it wouldn't interrupt. The rotation spreadsheet, last time I looked at it, showed for both rotations either judging on cooldown and resealing later or judging only when you can instantly reseal. No spreadsheet shows a rotation where you would judge when you can't reseal only if you will be able to reseal after the GCD but before the next white hit.

There's also the issue of if your jdugement is up almost 1.5s before your CS for whatever reason - there would be a breakpoint were it's better to judge+reseal and then CS than to CS and then judge+reseal, assuming you can't do what I said above (as in, your melee swing will hit before you could reseal so you can't judge+CS and then reseal without losing seal dmg).

I'd like to see a more conditional rotation that will say "when judgement is up, if GCD will be up for resealing before next melee attack, judge. Otherwise wait until right after next melee swing." (assumine a weapon speed >=3 otherwise you may get 2 melee swings until you can reseal again so you'll have to wait with the judgement until the next one).
Modeling this rotation with 8s judgement and then seeing if it actually ever uses judgement in <9s intervals will show if there can be any DPS increase from 9s to 8s, and TBH it's kinda hard to believe 8s wouldn't be more dps than 9s. Not to mention the actual difference is dependant on weapon speed, which again isn't taken into consideration in the rotation spreadsheet afaik unless it was updated.
#1156SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0DarKNecross
The main point of the two rotations isn't DPS with 8s vs 9s. In all reality, they should be doing the same DPS (in the initial screenshot, the reason 9sec pulls ahead of 8sec is due to the very beginning). Regardless of what happens, you'll want to use CS every time it's up. That leaves Judging and Resealing to be done around that GCD. Both rotations only Judge on average every 9 seconds, so while having a 9sec Judgement over 8sec won't really net you any extra DPS, it keeps you from accidentally Judging and resealing early, which could put your CS on GCD.
#1157SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Eyonix is asking for class feedback:
WoW Forums -> Class Feedback Requested

I registered my concerns in post #69
WoW Forums -> Class Feedback Requested

I'd encourage you all to register your concerns as well, while their window is open.
#1158SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ragnor
Is there a better way for an alliance pally to handle kaz'rogal other than wear ~250 shadow res, use r1 soc and hope for resists?
#1159SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Is there a better way for an alliance pally to handle kaz'rogal other than wear ~250 shadow res, use r1 soc and hope for resists?
yes, wear 350 shadow resist
#1160SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ragnor
Working on it..

Azgalor and Kaz'Rogal seem to be pretty crappy fights for us, without mega resist gear we can't stay on the boss for very long (I just nuked adds on azgalor) and and with mega resist gear we do average damage. Archimonde however was fun, I ended up around 4th behind our much better geared (pve wise) rogue, ench shaman and dps warr which was respectable.

Does anyone have a mod that checks the targets debuffs when you crusader strike and will let your raids other paladins via pm or message to a channel know to rejudge jow and jol. They fell off a couple of times when I got air bursted then feared for miles when I landed.

Last edited by Ragnor : 12/06/07 at 9:31 PM.
#1161SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Does anyone have a mod that checks the targets debuffs when you crusader strike and will let your raids other paladins via pm or message to a channel know to rejudge jow and jol. They fell off a couple of times when I got air bursted then feared for miles when I landed.
Demon can tell you what debuffs are on a boss quickly and easily, but I don't know of anything that can actually tell other people when they fall off. If there are any savvy programmers out there it would be an excellent idea for a mod though.

I just have a macro that says something along the lines of "Rebuff Judgements" in the pally chat that I spam whenever something falls off.
#1162SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Demon can tell you what debuffs are on a boss quickly and easily, but I don't know of anything that can actually tell other people when they fall off. If there are any savvy programmers out there it would be an excellent idea for a mod though.

I just have a macro that says something along the lines of "Rebuff Judgements" in the pally chat that I spam whenever something falls off.
I've bugged all the paladins in my guild to download DeMon in addition to using it myself. They use Clique to heal so it doesn't matter who their target is or who their focus, so they can just target/focus the boss and monitor for themselves. If something falls off and they don't rejudge it in a timely fashion, I either spam the pally channel or call out on Vent "Rejudge Wisdom/Light"
#1163SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Here is the macro I use which helps so I can smash the judge reseal button without the wasting mana on extra seals:

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command(rank 5)
My personal judge/reseal macro has always been:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=30/alt Seal of Command, Judgement


Is there any advantage to use the quoted one or is it just two ways to do the same thing?

Also with my macro you don't need to initially seal up before you start using the macro.
#1164SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
If you use
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of XYZ (rank e)

You can just push the macro when you have no seal up and it will skip the judgement, putting the seal up.
#1165SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
Can anyone please post his Tankstats (Blockrating, Parry, Dodge) of the equipment he is using in the Hyjal waves as trashtank whilst being retribution skilled? Would be very nice.
Reason: Guildleader says: why bring a retri paladin that can not offtank over a furywarrior that is able to tank the waves.
#1166SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prinsesa
I'm beating up on a Servant of Allistarj right now to level my one-handed axe skill, and I'm witnessing some very odd behavior from the Libram of Avengement. Specifically, it looks like the Justice buff is being refreshed with every swing I take.

All I'm doing are plain autoattacks while the Servant is judged with Light, and the Justice buff just keeps reapplying. Even when it falls of completely, it just pops up again with no interaction from me.

I turned away to let the Judgement fall off, and the refreshing stopped. As soon as I judged Light, it started going off again.

I tried it with Judgement of the Crusader, and it's working as well. Judgement of Wisdom works too.

I switched to my Hammer of Destiny, essentially putting me back to my normal PvE set, and Justice is still refreshing every hit.

This is pretty big. Can anyone else play around with it and confirm it works? Justice is not only triggering from Judgement of Light/Wisdom/the Crusader when the tooltip specifically only mentions Command, Righetousness, Blood and Vengeance, but its also triggering from plain old white hits as long as the target has a Judgement on him.
#1167SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
I'm beating up on a Servant of Allistarj right now to level my one-handed axe skill, and I'm witnessing some very odd behavior from the Libram of Avengement. Specifically, it looks like the Justice buff is being refreshed with every swing I take.

All I'm doing are plain autoattacks while the Servant is judged with Light, and the Justice buff just keeps reapplying. Even when it falls of completely, it just pops up again with no interaction from me.

I turned away to let the Judgement fall off, and the refreshing stopped. As soon as I judged Light, it started going off again.

I tried it with Judgement of the Crusader, and it's working as well. Judgement of Wisdom works too.

I switched to my Hammer of Destiny, essentially putting me back to my normal PvE set, and Justice is still refreshing every hit.

This is pretty big. Can anyone else play around with it and confirm it works? Justice is not only triggering from Judgement of Light/Wisdom/the Crusader when the tooltip specifically only mentions Command, Righetousness, Blood and Vengeance, but its also triggering from plain old white hits as long as the target has a Judgement on him.
This was a bug from way back on the 2.3 PTR and supposedly Blizzard had fixed it. It seems that they might not have, but I'm not complaining.
#1168SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0felirx
last week when our prot paladin was MIA, I offtanked the ghoul etc waves in hyjal.
My gear is something along the lines of few Karazhan epics, chest form Anetheron, TK ring and rest blues. If I we're specced prot, I would be crushing immune. Granted I died a few times, firstly due to my own stupidity by taking couple waves of shadow bolts and partly due to having an abomination or two whacking at the same time. With proper tanking gear and not some heroic blues, It's more than doable to tank the same packs that prot paladins do and not die. The TPS will be naturally lower and you will take a bit more damage.
#1169SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
I did some number crunching trying to evaluate the difference between SoB and SoC using haste gear and Heroism/Bloodlust and haste potions. Theoretical model is using SoC/SoB, JoC/JoB, melee and CS. Percentual contribution is calculated from paperdoll DPS of ~average T6 content paladin.

Theoretical difference (Double check anyone?)



Ingame

Just grabbed Blood Legion 2 teron gorefiend fights where Grant had SoB and SoC used with same amount of heroism and haste potions. In 180sec Teron Gorefiend, he would have done 7% more damage with SoB than SoC (1 AW, 1 heroism and 1 haste potion). So if anyone wants to double check for possible errors, go for it.

With 10% melee haste gear, he would have gained...
~6% damage with SoC
~7% damage with SoB

With 20% melee haste gear, he would have gained...
~12% damage with SoC
~15% damage with SoB

With 30% melee haste gear, he would have gained...
~18% damage with SoC
~22% damage with SoB

Could someone try to do similiar comparison and doublecheck if I did any major mistakes? Specially in the theoretical part. I will add the picture to OP so people get a bit better grasp of the seal difference (If someone can confirm it aint much off).

Last edited by Cromfel : 12/08/07 at 4:54 PM.
#1170SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Avitus
Originally Posted by felirx View Post
If you use
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of XYZ (rank e)

You can just push the macro when you have no seal up and it will skip the judgement, putting the seal up.
Yea but it has no built in check to avoid resealing while you're already sealed up and wasting mana.

Also if you press it during GCD (bad practice, but it happens), you don't reseal and have to be extra cautious to avoid a whole rotation of no seal up.
#1171SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0whut.
Is there anyway to do something like

/castsequence reset=9 Judgement, Seal of Blood(Rank 1)

Where it will auto-reseal after I judge?
I don't use a swing timer, but I really liked the old

/Cast Judgement
/StopCasting
/Cast Seal of Command
/StopCasting

Because it would auto-reseal. Only thing is, pressing it when Judgement isn't up and losing mana.
Any way to have the best of both worlds?
#1172SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0DarKNecross
If you want a one-button macro for DPS, you can try:
#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/castsequence reset=6 Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command
#1173SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
Is this one button DPS using the right spellorder? I thought the best way to maximize dps is to use Judgement, CS, CS, Judgement, CS, Judegement, CS, CS, Judgement, CS ... and so on: called the 2:1:2 model-
In your castsequence it is only one CS, Judgement. SO you are missing one CS each second cycle.

Or am I completly wrong?
#1174SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cromfel
A bit more SoB versus SoC raiding difference using: Random average BE Paladin WWS

SoB

Damage dealt to foes : 381 166

49.42% Melee 188 362 (Melee 166 930 + WF 21 432)
19.02% Seal of Blood 72 510
20.44% Crusader Strike 77 908
9.35% Judgement of Blood 35 620
1.21% Exorcism 4 602
0.57% Consecration 2 164
Total: 100%


SoC

SoC will deal damage as follows.
(72510 SoB * 2.10641 SoC multiplier * 0.4317 Proc% * WF reduction 0.872)
I added WF reduction as they can not proc SoC, while they do proc SoB. SoC multiplier means damage that is dealt by SoC with exactly same gear but adding SotC spell damage trough coefficiency and giving the addition multipliers according to vengeance, SA, iSA etc.

Damage dealt to foes : 358 108

52.59% Melee 188362 (Melee 166 930 + WF 21 432)
16.06% Seal of Command 57 496
21.76% Crusader Strike 77 908
7.70% Judgement of Command 27 576
1.29% Exorcism 4 602
0.60% Consecration 2 164
Total: 100%

So Bloodelf SoB users will deal ~6.5% more damage under normal raiding conditions. Lets add Alliance expertise and we are at 5.25%. Thats 5.25% more damage as "racial" for being BE. I think the faction difference should be removed, combined with silence when thinking of PvP and PvE the horde Paladin isnt really the same spec at all what alliance Retribution paladins are.



Here is how Haste effects both factions in increased total damage (Including all attacks). This is applied to everything. Haste potions, Bloodlust/Heroism and just normal haste trough gear. WF could be considered as constant 20% haste for BE.

Last edited by Cromfel : 12/09/07 at 2:00 PM.
#1175SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Duncan
I got a question about what's better for increasing your DPS if you kinda start "naked/new" as a retribution Paladin.

I have been Holy since BC, my retri stuff is all blues, with honor stuff (belt, waist, rings, neck, boots) and season2 shoulders. My weapon is Glaive of the Pit.

I have a lot of arena points left over from season2 and i am asking myself if it's DPS wise better to get a good weapon first (S2 or S3) or to upgrade blue armor pieces with season3 armor ?

€: I want to use it mainly for Solo PvP, BG and farming. Propably not arena. That's why i'm asking this here, where it is about DPS and not survivability and whatnot.

Last edited by Duncan : 12/09/07 at 5:14 PM.
#1176SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prinsesa
I believe a weapon upgrade would be the largest overall increase in your damage, compared to spending an equal amount of honor/arena points on armor pieces.

Also, keep in mind that the season 3 set is more properly itemized for Retribution, insofar as a lack of spell damage and more STR (and most importantly for PvP, actual resilience). This currently only applies to Crusader Strike (and SoB), but its not unreasonable to expect that SoC and other Ret abilities will be given the same no-spell-efficient-but-more-melee-coefficient revamp sooner or later.

Edit: The Season 3 gloves are amazing for buffing your Crusader Strike damage.
#1177SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
#1178SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Handled
Desire and Suffering I tend to go light, Help dispel and keep JotC up, I save everything for Anger

http://wowwebstats.com/weha4smrkx23a?s=4074-4093
#1179SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aramul
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
Get a Druid to roll a lifebloom on you and you'll never notice your health go down.
#1180SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
Be ready to stop attacking until you are healed.
#1181SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
I havent died a single time in RoS due reflect damage, not even once. Never... So I assume it isnt bad to heal even with Deaden + AW + Haste Pot and still they have managed to keep me alive.
#1182SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
Just use common sense and if you get very low stop attacking. You take 50% of the damage you do, chain heals should cover it nicely, but if you try hard you can usually get yourself killed. Our warriors had a habit of killing themselves with execute + rage from damage taken + execute during deadens since each execute feeds the subsequent ones.
#1183SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Argavaine
@flyingtoastr


Sometimes you can nuke yourself for some damage but it is nothing my healers could not manage so far.
#1184SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Strifen
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
Only thing I do is pay attention to deaden timers and I try not to CS during a deaden. If you get a CS/WF/SOC and most of them crit during a deaden it's likely you'll die. Never happened to me, but I've dropped myself below 20% from 100% a few times with lucky crit/proc chains without the help of a deaden.

Also for AW timers, what I usually do is blow it once during P1 for the initial burn then it's up again for the final P3 burn. Another thing in P3, save your AW for when he's getting low, you don't want to pop AW early on in P3 due to the nature of the fight you do more damage as time goes on so save it for later. What I like to do is wait for the last 20 seconds of my lust in P3 (we lust around ~80%) and then pop AW/Trinket/Haste potions and go to town. Big numbers!

Last edited by Strifen : 12/10/07 at 8:41 AM.
#1185SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Agonar
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
I pretty much bursted myself down a couples of time back when we were learning the fight. If i am in a Windfury group, ill end auto-attacking and spamming crusader strike every 6sec. without any seal up(or using SoR because it cant crit . Or ill seal Seal Of Command and auto-attack with it without using Crusader Strike at all, keeping only 1 judgment up(usually JoL on phase 2 and phase 3). Edit: I only do that during the Deaden.

I could probably push a bit more damage, but better be safe than sorry since phase 3 is a DPS race, we dont want anyone to dies in phase 2.

Call me a paranoiac.

Last edited by Agonar : 12/10/07 at 12:39 PM.
#1186SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Just for fun, I decided to play it dumb last week and use SoB instead of SoC on ROS phase 2... I didn't die but during deadens I certainly came close a few times. That being said, if I asked one of the druids to roll a lifebloom on me, as mentioned earlier, im 100% sure i'd be fine even with the increased reflect damage. Also, I have a sneaky suspicion that using SoB made RoS drop the first torch for my guild (which I won, finally an endgame weapon!), so I'm probably going to keep using it until I kill myself to keep my superstitions going.
#1187SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0escariot
Some quick clarifications

I've read a few of you mentioning (as well as the spreadsheet) that the Alchemist's Stone is one of the best raiding trinkets for SoC pallies, but I'm not sure I understand why it's such a better contender for SoC than SoB. I assumed that horde and alli pallies alike would benefit from consecration spam mixed with their normal rotation (mana allowing of course). So is there another reason that it's usefulness is so varying? The difference in its value on Bellator's spreadsheet leads me to think I'm missing something obvious. I'm trying to decide on a secondary profession to replace mining and it's a debate between alch for the stone, ench for the ring enchants, or engi... for fun? Then again, the LW drums might be something I could consider as well.

On a quick side question, the spreadsheet shows the lionheart being decisively better than the stormherald for raid dps, and yet from my experience I've run into far fewer pallies wieling the lionheart exe. Is this simply due to the stun proc and sta for pvp? My deep thunder rarely procs so I have a hard time justifying not switching over to the lionheart once I get my final vortex.

Final inquiry! Bellator's spreadsheet has mongoose marked higher than executioner for raid dps -- I haven't heard much on the debate recently, has it been put to rest that mongoose does outshine executioner in terms of raid dps or is it still up in the air and dependent on additional armor penetration from gear?

I appreciate the help guys, this thread has been unimaginably useful in helping me perform better than my guild ever expected as ret. Thank you all!
#1188SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by escariot View Post
On a quick side question, the spreadsheet shows the lionheart being decisively better than the stormherald for raid dps, and yet from my experience I've run into far fewer pallies wieling the lionheart exe. Is this simply due to the stun proc and sta for pvp? My deep thunder rarely procs so I have a hard time justifying not switching over to the lionheart once I get my final vortex.
From a pure raid DPS standpoint the sword is much better than Stormherald. It has more strength and crit as well as a proc that is very useful (and powerful) in PvE. The difference really comes down to the stamina on SH (the proc rate on the stun is so low its not worth mentioning). For overall utility, that stamina comes in very useful for soloing/PvP/Naj'entus etc. IMO is more or a personal choice thing, both are excellent weapons and you can't go wrong with either. If you absolutely must maximize your DPS to the highest amount possible then the Sword is better.

And as a personal aside, thanks to everyone for you input on the RoS encounter. I'm crossing my fingers for a Torch when we get her down.
#1189SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jokermn
RoS dropped the torch yesterday.
And our Warrior took it :/
#1190SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
Originally Posted by jokermn View Post
RoS dropped the torch yesterday.
And our Warrior took it :/
Did he have more DKP or was he given priority over you? If it's the latter I'd suggest you simply leave that guild as warriors should use 2-handers only for pvp.
#1191SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Did he have more DKP or was he given priority over you? If it's the latter I'd suggest you simply leave that guild as warriors should use 2-handers only for pvp.
? I think our ret paladin came to an agreement with our arms warrior that the ret paladin would pass on the Archimonde weapon, and the warrior would pass on the RoS one - but arms warrior bring a bigger increase in raid DPS than fury, as bloodfrenzy more than covers the gap in damage in most situations if you bring a normal amount of melee DPS.

That said, both weapons are excellent for arms/ret, come to an informal agreement with your guildmates.
#1192SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Hamburglar
The question for me sort of remains. As a belf pala, do I want the alchemy trinket, chugging manapots and spamming concecration or go without it and do hastepots? And can the seal of blood proc crit? And does it even matter. Hohum. Going to down the spreadsheet and do some testing, but Im a bit limited due to insane amounts of work .. at work...
#1193SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by Hamburglar View Post
The question for me sort of remains. As a belf pala, do I want the alchemy trinket, chugging manapots and spamming concecration or go without it and do hastepots? And can the seal of blood proc crit? And does it even matter. Hohum. Going to down the spreadsheet and do some testing, but Im a bit limited due to insane amounts of work .. at work...
As a belf I recommend that you don't bother with the alchemy trinket. Stick to some-type of dps trinket and drop haste potions over mana potions. With JoW on a mob I rarley have any mana problems and the way haste scales with SoB every haste potion is quite a nice dps boost. Not to mention the fact as a BE your gear should be pure warriors gear, meaning no +spell damage which equals pretty lousy consecrate damage. SoB sure can crit. Nothing like getting a white/wf attack crit and then having both seal of blood procs crit from it. I'll admit I haven't plugged any numbers into the spreadsheet, but I'm going off of personal experience (bt/hyjal farming).
#1194SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0goose
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
? I think our ret paladin came to an agreement with our arms warrior that the ret paladin would pass on the Archimonde weapon, and the warrior would pass on the RoS one - but arms warrior bring a bigger increase in raid DPS than fury, as bloodfrenzy more than covers the gap in damage in most situations if you bring a normal amount of melee DPS.

That said, both weapons are excellent for arms/ret, come to an informal agreement with your guildmates.
Yes our arms warrior and I agreed that even though the Archimonde weapon slightly out performs the RoS weapon for a retribution pala, that a arms warrior would benfit more from the swords then maces. His quote was "mace are for pvp and swords for pve" so I have no clue why the warrior in jokermn's guild took it over a retri paladin which is pretty much selfish even if he had more DKP.
That said, i wouldnt mind picking up the Archimonde sword when it drops for the second time even if it does kill my dkp, but knowing my luck with weapons niether weapons will drop for me.
#1195SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0myth123
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So I'm curious about something now that my guild is working on RoS.

With the randomness that is inherent in SoC is it hard to keep your incoming damage under control during phase 2, specifically during a deaden? I would assume you wouldn't want to pop AW in case of a WF/SoC crit string, but has anyone come close enough to killing themselves that they have to stop attacking during deadens?
I use seal of light. I save the wings and SoB for when deaden's not up. Yes, it seriously nerfs DPS but it's better than dying.
#1196SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0myth123
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Just for fun, I decided to play it dumb last week and use SoB instead of SoC on ROS phase 2... I didn't die but during deadens I certainly came close a few times. That being said, if I asked one of the druids to roll a lifebloom on me, as mentioned earlier, im 100% sure i'd be fine even with the increased reflect damage. Also, I have a sneaky suspicion that using SoB made RoS drop the first torch for my guild (which I won, finally an endgame weapon!), so I'm probably going to keep using it until I kill myself to keep my superstitions going.

I thought so too, until I critted white (6k)+sob (4k)+windfury(6.4k) and SoB(4k). I was dead instantly.
#1197SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Hamburglar
Side question.
When raiding as retri, do you guys mostly judge wis and do blood / command? Id figure socru was the best, but seeing Strifen recommending me wisdom and blood, socru and 3% raid-crit is lost.
#1198SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xellos
Have your holy paladins judge wisdom and light at the beginning and you get the best of all three worlds!
#1199SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Originally Posted by Hamburglar View Post
Side question.
When raiding as retri, do you guys mostly judge wis and do blood / command? Id figure socru was the best, but seeing Strifen recommending me wisdom and blood, socru and 3% raid-crit is lost.
I don't mean you judge wisdom, I mean in a raid setting when it's been judged on a mob (via another paladin). In raids you should judge crusader, if you have two holy paladins have the second judge wisdom, if you have three then have the third judge light.
#1200SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0escariot
Originally Posted by Hamburglar View Post
Side question.
When raiding as retri, do you guys mostly judge wis and do blood / command? Id figure socru was the best, but seeing Strifen recommending me wisdom and blood, socru and 3% raid-crit is lost.
What most raids do is have the other paladins judge wisdom/light and you judge your imp sotc and hold them all up. If you absolutely have to choose, I personally start with sotc and switch to wisdom midway if its a boss that's likely to give people mana issues. It's rare that another pally cant judge wisdom to help you though.
#1201SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Winkl
Not feeling the love. I'm Newly Ret since 2.3 coming from Holy. Guild decided to give ret a try and since I was one of the few interested but having the best gear gave it a go. My gear is here: The World of Warcraft Armory Not fantastic but pretty decent. Hit capped, 1850 atk and 29.66 crit unbuffed.

I'm really surprised at the variety of my ranking on fights. It's usually bottom of the barrel, just above the tanks. See the lurker fight below. Killed VR for the first time too and it was comparable. On the other hand I did surprisingly well on our first Leo takedown coming in 7th.

Lurker: Wow Web Stats
Leo: Wow Web Stats

My first inclination is that Lurker and VR require a lot of downtime for dps. Running away from pound or the whirls. Whereas ranged can keep on them all the time. On Leo everyones got downtime either running from whrilwinds or fighting their demon. So rather than me putting in a fantastic showing on Leo, its more a funtion of everyone else did crappily, due to the nature of the fight.

I think if I keep floating at the bottom of the dps charts I'm gonna be asked to spec back to healbot.

What if anything can I do to improve the performance. Note: No windfury, and unlikely to be (only 1 shammy). I'm using flasks and sharp stones and agi food already too.
#1202SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Gormal
Your performance was poor because you were not being utilized correctly. A feral druid and a marks hunter are not going to give you a substantial dps boost. You've got your one shaman in the caster group so your warlocks and that shadowpriest can get a little spell damage. Move that shaman into a group with your melee, and it will do more for your raid overall. One of the great things about doing 2h dps is that you have so much more to gain from raid buffs than other classes. If its any consolation, your rogues don't seem to be pulling their weight regardless of buffs.

Edit: Shaman group was lock/priest/spriest/tree.

Last edited by Gormal : 12/12/07 at 2:39 PM.
#1203SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0thisizterry
Hmm.. a tip for the lurker fight, there are a few things you can do to increase your dps time. During whirls i usually just stand there on the inner edge of the platform and eat it, get a renew and my mana replenishes at the same time. It helps you to sustain your dps through the gain in mana, and during spouts move forward into the inner pool where he is stationed to continue dpsing through the spout. Just a tip to buy you extra dps time... Also, on VR i don't know how your guild does it by the melee in my guild usually just stand in and eat the poundings with a shaman chain healing or holy priest circle healing. It double benefits me because im pretty much at full mana the whole fight so i can drop max rank consecrates and everything.
#1204SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Winkl View Post
What if anything can I do to improve the performance. Note: No windfury, and unlikely to be (only 1 shammy). I'm using flasks and sharp stones and agi food already too.
You can say the same about any DPS, if they dont have the proper party buffs, then their DPS is going to be horrible. Casters love boomkin/shadow priests/elemental shammys/ proper warlock curses, melee love Enchance shammys/ fury/arms warrs/ LOTP/ and on a raid wide basis survival hunters and hemo rogues. I think only pure DPS classes can hold their own w/o buffs and with buffs the blow stuff away. '

Also keep in mind the SotC buff. I have done a few back of the envelope calcs and I think it buffs your raid DPS by about 2-2.5%. So go ahead and put that extra DPS in your cap. This scales exponentially as your raid DPS gets higher. Here are my estimates based on who you can farm:

Mag: ~1.8%
Half SSC/TK: ~2%
Vashj: ~2.2%
Kael: ~2.5%
Half Hyjal/BT: ~ 2.8%
Archimonde: ~ 3.2%
Illidan: ~3.5%

Not too sure on the later MH/BT numbers cause my guild is 3/9 BT but these are empirical numbers anyways. It all depends on your raid makeup.

I was in your boat before I went ret pre 2.3 and then I got put in the melee group and I'm consistently top 8, with some bosses over 1000DPS.
#1205SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0escariot
profession support?

Until I get a weapon that outshines my BS one, I'm pretty much stuck with BS as one profession but I really have no need for mining anymore (have an alt miner with an epic if I need money or ore for something). But I'm at a loss about what really fills the gap best. I'm leaning most towards LW for the drums because no one else in our typical melee group has them, but LW seems a bit odd for a pally. Not to mention it's expensive, but if it's the best I'd be willing to foot the bill. I'm trying to weigh it against Ench for the ring enchants, or engi just for fun/repair bots I suppose. Alch seems out of the picture since the Alchemist's Stone isn't quite as impressive for BE. Any recommendations or input?
#1206SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
There was a post earlier about the benefits on an enhancement shaman for a ret pally, and you do something like 65% of your dps without one, meaning having an enhancement shaman is like a 50% dps boost. More than ANY other class, we get the most out of a shaman. And I'm willing to bet your raid dps will increase if you guys give some melee wf over casters getting spell damage. Just the nature of the totem is by definition a higher dps boost (figure casters in raids have 1200 spell damage, another 101 is a smaller increase than a 20% chance at another attack for melee). Maybe run THAT by your raid leaders
#1207SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nayair
Originally Posted by Winkl View Post
My guild is at about the same place it sounds like (a bit lower progression-wise) and my gear is decent but certainly has some weak points. Here's our last night's Lurker WWS for comparison :

Lurker: Wow Web Stats

The big difference is that I have battle shout and an enhance shaman in my group (and I'm a blood elf). I didn't use haste pots, I used manas, this is probably necessary because I actually do run in and out of whirls. As the WWS shows, I still maintain an 85% dps time, beaten only by our tank at 87% dps, so I feel that if you are aggressive and on the ball, running out should provide superior dps. However, this is a minor point. The main point is that WF of some type, even from a resto shaman, will make a retardedly large difference. Battleshout and the enhance AP buff are just icing - however delicious icing it may be - on the cake.

If anyone wants to theorize as to why I always go from 1-3 down to 5-7 on Morogrim, I'd be interested to hear it I know I'm going to fall behind the people AEing the Murlocs, but if you look at the WWS log you will see that I fell behind the two hunters as well, despite only having been graved once. I roll with Pursuit of Justice so as long as DS is ready a grave isn't even that bad of a disruption.
#1208SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gormal
Given a single target like Tidewalker, where he doesn't have to break rotation, your hunter's going to do optimal dps. Against a single target, r1 consecrate is ~50dps for a minimal amount of mana, so maybe you should try to work that in if you aren't strapped for mana. Other than that, the only way I can think of to improve your dps is to be very aggressive in your use of abilities and cooldowns. If you'd popped AW a little sooner, you could've gotten a third off before the fight ended. I try to coordinate my AW with bloodlust or trinkets to help it scale even better. Have a chat with your shaman and see when he's planning on using BL, every little bit helps a lot.

The reason that you're dropping in the overall damage done is simply because most everyone above you is AOEing. Drop a consecrate during the murlocs and you'll be back on top.
#1209SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Saltycracker
So we were raiding last night...OMG

Im curious why I am hit capped but still missing bosses...

Saltycracker - WWS

Any Thoughts?

*edit* Nevermind, those misses are really dodges. WTB expertise PST....

Last edited by Saltycracker : 12/14/07 at 12:27 PM.
#1210SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xellos
Bosses can still dodge even if you're hit capped and meleeing from behind. Not sure if Anetheron will parry if he turns around to cast Carrion Swarm, but that might be a reason too.
#1211SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wrl
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Bosses can still dodge even if you're hit capped and meleeing from behind. Not sure if Anetheron will parry if he turns around to cast Carrion Swarm, but that might be a reason too.
All bosses that can turn to cast a spell can parry during that turn. Recently of note I've been parried by Anetheron and Najentus due to them turning around to throw out some pain.
#1212SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Caligula
Dodge and parry =/= miss.

Salty are you wearing an SR piece that drops your hit rating or something?
#1213SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Bosses can still dodge even if you're hit capped and meleeing from behind. Not sure if Anetheron will parry if he turns around to cast Carrion Swarm, but that might be a reason too.
They will parry while they cast carrion swarm. Same is with Teron. Good tip for melee at Teron fight is have the boss be turned against raid, so majority of the cast will be away from melee, hence reducing parrys.
#1214SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Caligula
Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
Dodge and parry =/= miss.

Salty are you wearing an SR piece that drops your hit rating or something?
There's also this as well.

Loading...
#1215SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
Dodge and parry =/= miss.

Salty are you wearing an SR piece that drops your hit rating or something?
Nope, our guild only has like 15 out of 225 Hearts of darkness you need for getting SR made...

I actually have way too much hit at the moment. Im wearing Shapeshifter's Signet instead of Garona's Signet Ring and still over the cap. Waiting for T5 shoulders to drop so I can wear those and the pants..

A quick note about parrys. We wiped on Najentus a few times last night because melee was attacking in parry range too far to the side. This will KILL your tanks literally. I know pallys cant contribute to this too much cause of our slow attack speed, but if a boss parrys your attacks, it will hit the tank quicker as a consequence. This eats up shield block charges and makes for some very nasty double crushing blow combos. Do it from behind not only to improve your DPS, but to keep your tanks alive longer as well. Remind your fellow duel wielders of this as well L2P newbs.
#1216SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
xellos
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
They will parry while they cast carrion swarm. Same is with Teron. Good tip for melee at Teron fight is have the boss be turned against raid, so majority of the cast will be away from melee, hence reducing parrys.
Ok, that makes sense. It would explain my abyssmal 15% miss rate during 1 Teron kill.

On a different note, have any ret paladins conducted testing concerning mongoose vs. executioner, e.g. replacing mongoose with executioner? I've seen theorycrafting saying that the dps difference between them is marginal and that it comes down to which glow you like better. However, it's difficult for my mind to wrap around the fact that 840 armor penetration for 70% of my damage could be as good as almost 5% crit and 2% haste. My guild has started working on Archimonde so I've been deliberating on what enchant to get on [Cataclysm's Edge] .

Last edited by xellos : 12/14/07 at 1:17 PM. Reason: grammar
#1217SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Handled
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Ok, that makes sense. It would explain my abyssmal 15% miss rate during 1 Teron kill.

On a different note, have any ret paladins conducted testing concerning mongoose vs. executioner, e.g. replacing mongoose with executioner? I've seen theorycrafting saying that the dps difference between them is marginal and that it comes down to which glow you like better. However, it's difficult for my mind to wrap around the fact that 840 armor penetration for 70% of my damage could be as good as almost 5% crit and 2% haste. My guild has started working on Archimonde so I've been deliberating on what enchant to get on [Cataclysm's Edge] .
I have been swapping gear in and out on a ton of different boss fights and been doing a ton of theorycrafting to determine which is better for Retribution DPS. I have swapped out gear for Armor Pen even haste and Armor Pen while still maintaining my Hit rating but I can't find a quality happy point. It feels like the DPS is close to the same regardless using Armor Pen gear or not.
#1218SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Holyfox
Ret + WF

Hello I was wondering if anyone could help me with some math. Basically right now I'm raiding Ret with WORLD BREAKER and using SoB. The problem that arises is that most times I'm put into a group with an enhancement shaman who refuses to throw a WF totem or totem twist even though there is a 2h user in the group. I have seen math that shows combat rogues get a dps increase from WF over GOA and I know that I myself would get a huge increase while getting WF and partially because SoB scaling with the AP that WF gives. I was wondering if there was any math that shows how much dps a BE ret pally using my type of wep would gain from WF and from GOA so that I can show my guild the difference, and also better understand why I'm not getting a WF totem in raids. If I'm wrong and the overall raid's dps is lowered by getting a WF totem then I'm cool with not having one. I really care less about my overall dps then the guilds since it's a team game. I believe that myself and a 2h warrior and a rogue's benefit from a WF will outweigh the whole groups benefit from a GOA totem unless there is a tanking druid in the group. I have the math that shows the dps increases for the other classes but cannot find anything on BE ret pallies. Any help would be much appreciated.
#1219SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sapp
if more than one person in a group can use windfury, you drop windfury. GOA is notably worse for every variety of rogue, and a warrior or ret paladin without windfury will do pathetic damage. it only even comes close for the two flavors of dagger rogues, and that doesn't really count since dagger rogues are incredibly suboptimal in raids, between doing less damage than sinister strike builds and being incredibly finicky DPS.

Dropping GOA is lowering overall raid DPS by a notable amount. Especially in a group of Ret paladin, Arms warrior, Combat rogue, (enhance shaman/some other fucker who is presumably a feral or hunter).

Basically, GoA is roughly ~3-4% increased damage for the recipient, depending on class. Windfury is ~25% increased white damage for the recipient (remember the AP bonus on windfury attacks), and White damage is 50%+ of total DPS for nearly all melee classes. Even without considering the multiplying factor that means for warriors and the ret paladin in terms of rage generation and seal procs, 25% more white damage from a ret/warrior/rogue is a hell of a lot more damage than any gain for your hunter and enhance shaman.

Basically, it's raid optimal to make sure ALL melee has windfury as your first priority. Only when you run out of melee to give Windfury to do you start considering WoA for casters or GoA for hunters/ferals.

Last edited by Sapp : 12/15/07 at 5:08 PM.
#1220SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0DarKNecross
If your Enhancement Shaman isn't lazy, he can easily keep Windfury and GoA up in a raid environment. First night I mentioned it, our rogues shot up about 100DPS each fight.
#1221SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Pitbuller
I did something odd and play with Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo. That is shaman simulator. But with right adjustement you can think that is simple retripaladin swing sim. Firt turn off DW and flurry. Then switch shock off. Put flametongue(You can think this is SoB or SoC) instead of wf. Then put all your gear values and buffs. Then adjust spell crit so much that flametonue damage is 43% of melee dps.(70% melee 30% spell damage. 0.3/0.7=.43) And there is ret paladin simulator. I know this isnt perfect but you can test mongoose vs executioner.
My result was that any gear levels in game mongoose => executioner. There is many basic thing that is wrong when using different class sim but give it a try. Biggest flaw is that SS is 10s CD and CS is 6s CD.(little over value to mongoose. there is option to get SS CD to 9s.[4-pieces set bonus -> Eartshaker) Did I wake up any thoughts?
#1222SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Isuildor
I was having a look at the ret season 3 hands and i saw the 5% damage increase to CS, i was wondering if it is worth getting.
#1223SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Isuildor View Post
I was having a look at the ret season 3 hands and i saw the 5% damage increase to CS, i was wondering if it is worth getting.
These are the best gloves in the entire game because of that bonus.
#1224SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Holyfox
yes those gloves are better for raiding then any gloves you will see in the game
#1225SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0outaimusha
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
If your Enhancement Shaman isn't lazy, he can easily keep Windfury and GoA up in a raid environment. First night I mentioned it, our rogues shot up about 100DPS each fight.
It's not a question of them being lazy or not. It's a question of the shaman playing smart or not.

Yes. Totem weaving is possible.

No. It shouldn't be done.

Realistically in a raid encounter this does two things to the Shaman. Gives them horrible mana efficiency, and seriously hinders their own Dps by wasting global cool downs. The uptime of a totem buff after the totem is gone is 3 seconds 4 at the most. To keep WF and GoA up constantly the Shaman would literally have to do nothing but weave totems. Taking away a large chunk of dps to slightly increase the dps of 4 others. I would wager that would either decrease overall performance or just balance out.

It'll be a moot point eventually anyway. Blizzard is aware Totem weaving is possible, and intends to find a way to make it not possible.
#1226SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0escariot
Originally Posted by outaimusha View Post
It's not a question of them being lazy or not. It's a question of the shaman playing smart or not.

Yes. Totem weaving is possible.

No. It shouldn't be done.

Realistically in a raid encounter this does two things to the Shaman. Gives them horrible mana efficiency, and seriously hinders their own Dps by wasting global cool downs. The uptime of a totem buff after the totem is gone is 3 seconds 4 at the most. To keep WF and GoA up constantly the Shaman would literally have to do nothing but weave totems. Taking away a large chunk of dps to slightly increase the dps of 4 others. I would wager that would either decrease overall performance or just balance out.

It'll be a moot point eventually anyway. Blizzard is aware Totem weaving is possible, and intends to find a way to make it not possible.
Unless it was just changed in 2.3, the buff duration is 9s I believe. Done right the party can have wf the entire fight and GoA around 80% realistically. It cuts their dps a bit, but not terribly so unless you consider the mana strain.

Having said that, I agree it shouldn't be done in most situations simply because the buff from GoA is rarely worth the extra mana cost. The new clearcasting talent definitely helps the mana situation but it's not going to be enough even with SR. The only way a shaman can realistically totem weave an entire fight is with a shadow priest in the party, and now your melee dps group is looking a bit strange (obviously wf on a 5th melee dps would far outweigh a shadow priest to allow totem weaving). It's a bit more understandable in a 10-man environment depending on the party setup simply because you can't always get an ideal group.
#1227SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Karakas
Err what DPS loss? At most you're using a GCD every 10 seconds on Stormstrike and every 6 on a Shock, surely the rest you can keep totem twisting up.

And with Shamanistic Rage and JoW, mana should never be an issue for Enhancement Shaman.
#1228SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Pitbuller
97agi(imp totems/kings) with 85% uptime gives whole party around 3.3%more crit. This contribute almoust four time more damage than earth shocking. Drop extra shock(earth) if mana or GBC dosnt allow to twist.
#1229SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SomeoneRandom
Enhancement shaman are also one of the only classes that from what I have seen do not have to pop mana potions.... so if you have a lazy shaman who isn't totem twisting simply because of mana... find a new one or educate him on the basic costs of raiding.
#1230SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
So now I've been ret for almost a week now, it was a very disappointing start in TK, dying on trash, nubbing out on Alar and a mediocre performance on Solarian. I wasn't in a melee group, so I had to rely on a resto shaman to feed my totems which were out of range half the time or she just didnt drop them. Then I set myself up in the tank group for void reaver (as we had two paladin tanks that week) along with the enhancement shaman and the warrior MT for pure threat production. To my surprise, I took number 1 on the charts. I also had no problems with mana either as I was getting circle of healing spam from the MT healer =]

The following saturday, we practiced on kael a bit.... then went off to SSC after respawn for an hour. Managed to get a WWS report for this.

Hydross + Leo

For SSC I had the enhancement shaman in my group right up until leo where he switched onto his warlock to tank leo's demon form. If I had the WF totems going in Leo, I reckon I wouldve easily been up there with the top 3.

From this past week of not being in a melee group and then being in one... I'd have to say that all a raid leader needs to do is give it a chance. You'd be surprised how much a paladins personal dps will rise.
#1231SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Enhancement shaman are also one of the only classes that from what I have seen do not have to pop mana potions.... so if you have a lazy shaman who isn't totem twisting simply because of mana... find a new one or educate him on the basic costs of raiding.
Popping mana pots means no haste pots. Mana shouldn't be an issue though, if it is, get the shaman to twist rank 2 WF totem instead.
#1232SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zai
Has there been any discussion on decent weapon enchants for retadins? Now that I finally have a twohander worth enchanting I'm looking around for enchants, but so far it feels pretty disappointing.

I haven't done any math whatsoever yet, but Savagery feels like the best bet to slap on a weapon.
#1233SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Zai View Post
Has there been any discussion on decent weapon enchants for retadins?
Yes there was. Roll a few pages back or something
#1234SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mearis
Originally Posted by outaimusha View Post
It's not a question of them being lazy or not. It's a question of the shaman playing smart or not.

Yes. Totem weaving is possible.

No. It shouldn't be done.

Realistically in a raid encounter this does two things to the Shaman. Gives them horrible mana efficiency, and seriously hinders their own Dps by wasting global cool downs. The uptime of a totem buff after the totem is gone is 3 seconds 4 at the most. To keep WF and GoA up constantly the Shaman would literally have to do nothing but weave totems. Taking away a large chunk of dps to slightly increase the dps of 4 others. I would wager that would either decrease overall performance or just balance out.

It'll be a moot point eventually anyway. Blizzard is aware Totem weaving is possible, and intends to find a way to make it not possible.
Can you explain why? Totem twisting seems like a huge boost for the group, and it requires a small bit of micromanagement - how does 1 extra GCD every 10 seconds lower your DPS? Twisting GoA + WF is pretty huge with a group of 3 rogues and 1 fury warrior.
#1235SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by Zai View Post
Has there been any discussion on decent weapon enchants for retadins? Now that I finally have a twohander worth enchanting I'm looking around for enchants, but so far it feels pretty disappointing.

I haven't done any math whatsoever yet, but Savagery feels like the best bet to slap on a weapon.

Yes there was and if I recall correctly, the general consensus was that the differences between Mongoose, Savagery and Executioner are minimal (~5-10 DPS, at most).

Personally, after trying Mongoose for a week, I went back to Savagery. Yes, on paper, Mongoose may outperform it..but on paper, you don't see the procs that are wasted because you have to stop attacking for whatever reason (boss switches phases, resets aggro etc.), or procs wasted because it procced off a killing blow. Savagery is there for each and every hit, it's there when I need it, and I like it.
#1236SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Just throwing this out there: I have huge mana problems in all encounters.

- I keep rank1 concecrate up for about 80% of the fight, and max rank whenever AW is active. (I have the darkmoon trinket, so I always feel compelled to take advantage of the +80 spell dmg)
- If i'm fighting a demon/undead boss, i exercise whenever the CD is up.
- max rank seal of command, judging every 8 sec, (thinking of downranking this, though, considering the judgement isn't a very good % of my damage)
- Pop mana pots on cooldown, etc, etc.
- JoW is always put up by one of the healers (altho it seems to get pushed off by other debuffs??)

Here is the spec I raid with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


We tend to go light on pallys recently due to attendance issues and bringing shamen instead, so i usually have to sacrifice one or two crucial pally buffs for BoW. (What i tend to do is give myself 10 min salv in the beginning, and switch to might after the tank has a significant lead.)


Anyway... should I ditch the R1 consecrate?
Or just downrank to R4 or 5 of SoCommand?
Should I put 2 points into Divine Intellect instead of Imp might?

I've started to buy dark runes, but I hate using the healthstone CD.
#1237SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
Should I put 2 points into Divine Intellect instead of Imp might?
DI is never the right answer. Mana problems stem more from the balance of mana spent vs returned, not from how much you start with (while it helps, its not a real solution).

I guess the first question to ask is whether or not the other pally(s) in the raid are dropping judgement of wisdom on the target. On most fights where I don't have to move a lot, JoW gives me upwards of 100 mp5 easily. Being horde, I can't really comment on your use of max rank SoC versus downranking, I never run into any issues with SoB.
#1238SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
Just throwing this out there: I have huge mana problems in all encounters.
....

Anyway... should I ditch the R1 consecrate?
Or just downrank to R4 or 5 of SoCommand?
Should I put 2 points into Divine Intellect instead of Imp might?
Do you run SWS?


I don't think SWS is completely accurate for damage done by seals (due to SJ giving mana rebates), but it should give you a ranking of

Exorcism
R1 Consecrate
CS

and their relative efficiency.


Pioritize abilities based on their efficiency (because you're mana limited, so using your mana better will let you get better damage with your current gear no matter what the fight is).


Divine Intellect is *definitely* not going to help (for raid DPS), since it's a static bonus of a few hundred mana, tops. Looking at your current armory, you get something like 75~ mana per point ... Over a 6 minute fight, that's not much. Mana regen is what you need for higher sustainability.



Anyways, looking at your armory, I suspect that you don't have enough +dmg (55 with your current gear; 135 with Crusade card?) to make Exorcism or Consecrate worthwhile (especially without JotC). R1 Consecrate may still be fine when you have both JotC and JoW up since it's a 120 mana spell with a 50% chance to return 74 mana, but Exorcism gets somewhere around 2.2~ DPM in my +dmg focused gear. It's not going to be any better in pure AP gear.






On a different topic:

Does SoB proc off of WF? Does it use the WF attack's white damage (WF has bonus AP for the extra swing) or your normal white damage?
#1239SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Noraj
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
Just throwing this out there: I have huge mana problems in all encounters.

...snipped...
Anyway... should I ditch the R1 consecrate?
Or just downrank to R4 or 5 of SoCommand?
Should I put 2 points into Divine Intellect instead of Imp might?

I've started to buy dark runes, but I hate using the healthstone CD.
On a fight where the mob isn't removing my mana, I use Avenging Wrath on its cooldowns, and I'm judging and using Crusader Strike on every cooldown, I can last 10 minutes with Blessing of Wisdom. When I uprank Seal of Command to maximum, my time to zero mana goes down to three or four minutes. The DPS difference is absolutely minimal. Now, when the 2.3.2 planned changes for Sanctified Judgements goes into effect, upranking will be a much more viable option as you'll be getting 80% of the mana cost of SoCom back as opposed to 50%.

That being said, start trying to fix the mana issues by downranking before spending gold on a respec.


Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Can you explain why? Totem twisting seems like a huge boost for the group, and it requires a small bit of micromanagement - how does 1 extra GCD every 10 seconds lower your DPS? Twisting GoA + WF is pretty huge with a group of 3 rogues and 1 fury warrior.
Totem Twisting is a bit of a benefit, but should not be relied on. Unless I'm mistaken, the effect has been listed as not working as intended, and will be corrected in the next patch.

As to the Moongoose Vs. Savagery Vs. Executioner question it ultimately boils down to where you spend the majority of your time and the balance quality of your raid. With a mob suffering from five Sunders / a 5 point Expose Armor, Faerie Fire, and Curse of Recklessness, an Executioner proc brings a tremendous amount to the table. If you're just PvPing, the proc will mean considerably less.

Each armor level will be lessened by the listed debuff in a running count.
Numbers from default values, and using the Armor Reduction Calculator found at:
http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reduction.php

Assumes a base armor value of 7000 on a level 73 mob

CoR = Curse of Recklessness
Sun = Five Sunder Armors  520*5 = 2600
FF = Faerie Fire  610
ExP = Executioner Proc  840

Armor Level     Debuff     Mitigation
7000            -          36.92%
4400            Sun        26.895%
3790            FF         24.063%
2990            CoR       22.07%
2150            ExP        16.919%

Last edited by Noraj : 12/18/07 at 3:08 AM.
#1240SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Renaud
Have their been any comparisons between [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] and [World Breaker]

I will have my choice, but I would prefer not to get both. Does the crit from the WB outweigh the haste? I am a bloodelf, but currently have no static haste items, or is DPS/Top End Damage > all?

[Edit: Evidently I am too moronic to understand how to do the Wowhead links, if someone could inform me I would be appreciative.]
[Edit2: Nevermind, I was thinking too hard]

Last edited by Renaud : 12/17/07 at 3:33 PM.
#1241SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
Have their been any comparisons between Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse and World Breaker?

I will have my choice, but I would prefer not to get both. Does the crit from the WB outweigh the haste? I am a bloodelf, but currently have no static haste items.

[Edit: Evidently I am too moronic to understand how to do the Wowhead links, if someone could inform me I would be appreciative.]
Use "item" tags

[_item] ITEM NAME [/item] << Remove "_" in the first tag

[Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
[World Breaker]


I think the names have to be exact for it to work.
#1242SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Do you run SWS?
Wow Web Stats

I think every one of the attempts i was almost OOM after 1-2 minutes.
A healer would put JoW up, but then it would vanish.

I'm thinking that even though CS refreshes it, it doesn't move the debuff up in position, so it gets pushed off by everyone else's debuffs.
No one was sure what was going on, because we always saw it go up, then it would disappear.

Also in the Gorefiend attempts, the shaman was dropping FR totem instead of mana spring, which hurt.
#1243SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Oxudes
Hey, popping in here again, would just like some advice on choosing between [Red Belt of Battle] and [Chain of Unleashed Rage]. For raiding of course.

edit: oh, I'm at about 1690 AP, 31.7% crit, hit capped unbuffed.
#1244SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Buanna
Originally Posted by Noraj View Post
Totem Twisting is a bit of a benefit, but should not be relied on. Unless I'm mistaken, the effect has been listed as not working as intended, and will be corrected in the next patch.
It was only mentioned as not intended. There were no projections given as to fixing it.
#1245SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
Wow Web Stats

I think every one of the attempts i was almost OOM after 1-2 minutes.
A healer would put JoW up, but then it would vanish.

I'm thinking that even though CS refreshes it, it doesn't move the debuff up in position, so it gets pushed off by everyone else's debuffs.
No one was sure what was going on, because we always saw it go up, then it would disappear.

Also in the Gorefiend attempts, the shaman was dropping FR totem instead of mana spring, which hurt.
Using your WWS:
Average CS - 1511 damage (236 mana) - 6.4 DPM

Average Exorcism - 1110 damage (340 mana, assuming you used max rank) - 3.2 DPM.


Figuring out mana efficiency of JoC is a little tricky, since technically you could just run SoC R1 and judge it every 29 seconds, or you could judge every 8~ seconds with max rank, but we'll just play with the current numbers.

Your WWS shows 8 SoC procs for 1.4k average and 10 JoCs for 480. Assuming that's max rank JoC (238 mana, -119 SJ, +124~ judgment; 243 total mana), you did an average of 1600 damage for 243 mana, or 6.58 DPM.

You could get the same seal damage with SoC R1 - looking at 10 casts of SoC R1, you would average 20.36 DPM from the seal damage. (If you don't need 10 casts of SoC R1 to get 8 SoC procs, then you end up with some really obscene efficiency number)


For consecrate, I don't know what rank you used - but it did an average of 47 damage, or 376 damage over 8 seconds. If that was R1 (120 mana), that has a DPM of 3.13, which is lower than that of Exorcism.


Recap using your WWS numbers:

CS - 6.4 DPM
Exorcism - 3.2 DPM
Consecrate - 3.13 DPM (assuming R1)

R6 SoC + JoC - 6.58 DPM
Theoretical SoC R1 - 20.36 DPM

I separated SoC/JoC from the other abilities since they're a different type of mechanic. Differentiating between seal and judgement mana costs is kind of arbitrary.


So if running OOM caused you to use CS less, then you should cast Consecrate and Exorcism less often. For max DPM, I think R1 SoC (no judgement) + CS every CD + JoW should be close to the best efficiency rotation.


Recalculation using JoW: (-37 mana cost per hit)

CS - 7.59
Exorcism - 3.66 DPM
Consecrate - 4.53 DPM (assuming R1)

R6 SoC + JoC - 9.07 DPM
Theoretical SoC R1 - 44.09 DPM
For mana efficiency, I think the theorycraft math here suggests you should stick to CS + your preferred rank of SoC.

(If you can guarantee JotC + JoW, R1 Exorcism might have high enough efficiency to be worth using)
#1246SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Aramul
Originally Posted by Fiola
Figuring out mana efficiency of JoC is a little tricky, since technically you could just run SoC R1 and judge it every 29 seconds, or you could judge every 8~ seconds with max rank, but we'll just play with the current numbers.
Since SoC damage can be maintained with just a r1 SoC every ~30 seconds, the overall mana cost and DPM of JoC can be seperated from SoC by taking all mana spent on SoC/Judgement, and subtracting the cost of r1 SoC every 30 seconds.

Using Afkbot's WWS
The fight lasted 2:56, SoC r1 would need to be cast 6 times during the fight to maintain 100% SoC uptime. SoC dealt 32898 total damage.
SoC DPM = 32898 / (6 * 55) = 32898 / 330 = 99.6

With 16 casts of SoC/JoC during the fight, actual mana spent on Seal/Judge (assuming max rank) is 16 * 243 - 330 = 3558. JoC dealt 10657 total damage.
JoC DPM = 10657 / 3558 = 2.995

Assuming JoW was up (it was), theoretical mana spent drops by 37*16=592.
JoC DPM = 10657 / (3558 - 592) = 10657 / 2966 = 3.593

Edit: Didn't listen to my own advice on seperation.

Last edited by Aramul : 12/17/07 at 9:56 PM.
#1247SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0DarKNecross
For Item vs. Item comparisons, I highly recommend people look at MaxDPS.com. It may not be quite perfect now, but it's about as good as an opinion you'll get from anyone else.

Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
Have their been any comparisons between [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] and [World Breaker]

I will have my choice, but I would prefer not to get both. Does the crit from the WB outweigh the haste? I am a bloodelf, but currently have no static haste items, or is DPS/Top End Damage > all?

[Edit: Evidently I am too moronic to understand how to do the Wowhead links, if someone could inform me I would be appreciative.]
[Edit2: Nevermind, I was thinking too hard]
Jin'rohk - haste is amazing as a Blood Elf paladin.

Originally Posted by Oxudes View Post
Hey, popping in here again, would just like some advice on choosing between [Red Belt of Battle] and [Chain of Unleashed Rage]. For raiding of course.

edit: oh, I'm at about 1690 AP, 31.7% crit, hit capped unbuffed.
Red Belt of Battle - the crit scales your DPS more than the Armor pen.
#1248SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gormal
Keep in mind that maxdps.com does not work for seal of blood, and for whatever reason weighs hit rating absurdly high. Common sense should tell you which items are the better ones, though.
#1249SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Isuildor
Originally Posted by Wh0areume View Post
Wow Web Stats

I think every one of the attempts i was almost OOM after 1-2 minutes.
A healer would put JoW up, but then it would vanish.

I'm thinking that even though CS refreshes it, it doesn't move the debuff up in position, so it gets pushed off by everyone else's debuffs.
No one was sure what was going on, because we always saw it go up, then it would disappear.
how many warlocks and shadow priests does your guild take because a boss can only ever have 40 debuffs. So if you have too many classes that do debuffs, things will keep getting pushed off.
#1250SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Keep in mind that maxdps.com does not work for seal of blood, and for whatever reason weighs hit rating absurdly high. Common sense should tell you which items are the better ones, though.
If you plug your stats into maxdps.com and for hit rating put in enough to be hit capped, it no longer rates hit rating as high.
#1251SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Mordekhuul
nm, I retract my Stormherald vs. Lionheart champion question, as it has been answered several times int his thread (LH slightly edges Stormherald in PVE dps, but SH has stamina that is handy in some situations as well = personal choice).

I will leave the question standing for those that have progressed far beyond my meager SSC/TK experience, though. How quickly in T3 content are SH or LH replaced by simple raid boss drops, if ever?

Last edited by Mordekhuul : 12/18/07 at 9:58 AM.
#1252SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Mordekhuul:

Archimonde ([Cataclysm's Edge]) and Reliquary of Souls ([Torch of the Damned]) are the only two bosses in T3 content that drop a feasible replacement. One could argue the axe off Teron Gorefiend ([Soul Cleaver]) is as well, but not over the 3rd tier of crafted weapons IMO.

Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
If you plug your stats into maxdps.com and for hit rating put in enough to be hit capped, it no longer rates hit rating as high.
While this is true, I find armor penetration is rated extremely high, and again as a blood elf the whole seal of blood thing not working is a huge downer, causing spell damage to be rated too highly.
#1253SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Saltycracker
I apologize in advance if this horse has been beaten.

Is Seal of Vengeance a waste of time/mana to weave into a spell rotation? I'm thinking of stacking 5 at the beginning of a fight, then moving on to seal of command and getting hits in every so often with SoV up to refresh it.

Bliz: why is SoV gimped. Let Crusader strike refresh it. Kthx.

edit: I wanna be an emo paladin and hurt myself. Lil help here with SoB?

Last edited by Saltycracker : 12/18/07 at 1:26 PM.
#1254SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Its not gimped... from my understanding it is far and away the best tanking seal in the game... alliance get a protadin seal, horde gets a retadin seal. FIXT?
#1255SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Its not gimped... from my understanding it is far and away the best tanking seal in the game...
I am not quite sure our prot colleagues would agree...
#1256SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0kalbear
I am not quite sure our prot colleagues would agree...
It's better than SoR unless you have a massive amount of spelldamage, but it's only really useful against certain bosses. If you can't refresh the stack reliably for whatever reason (usually movement or impairment) it's really bad. But it's situationally awesome.

Both seals should be available to both factions, given how good they can be in those builds. That they aren't shows you how poorly thought out the paladin class has been for a while; no fights have been considered with SoV or SoB in mind.
#1257SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Its not gimped... from my understanding it is far and away the best tanking seal in the game... alliance get a protadin seal, horde gets a retadin seal. FIXT?
SoV is theoretically the highest TPS seal in the game. In practice, it falls far short. Because of boss resist rates and lack of spell hit, misses/parries/dodges, and a lack of a gaurenteed proc chance with anything slower than a 3.0 speed weapon it can be very difficult to maintain a stack on any given boss. SoR is still the tanking seal of choice.

So Horde get an amazingly powerful ret seal and alliance get... something to keep rogues from vanishing in PvP (though if you're not laying down the Rank I consecrates you deserve to be double cheap shotted anyway). Good game.
#1258SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0a9eagle
I'm trying to create some macros for castsquences for better timings of spell rotations, but i've heard some spells like Hammer of Wrath reset the Swing Timer. Mainly trying to time a crusader strike judgement reseal within the 1.5 sec GCD, without getting an auto-attack unsealed

Does anyone know what other spells reset the swing timer?

Main one's i'm wondering about are:

Concecration
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath
Hammer of Justice
Repentance (i know it stops auto-attack, so by stoping auto attack will the next swing happen 3.8 secs later)

TY for your time.
#1259SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Renaud
Originally Posted by a9eagle View Post
I'm trying to create some macros for castsquences for better timings of spell rotations, but i've heard some spells like Hammer of Wrath reset the Swing Timer. Mainly trying to time a crusader strike judgement reseal within the 1.5 sec GCD, without getting an auto-attack unsealed

Does anyone know what other spells reset the swing timer?

Main one's i'm wondering about are:

Concecration
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath
Hammer of Justice
Repentance (i know it stops auto-attack, so by stoping auto attack will the next swing happen 3.8 secs later)

TY for your time.
Instant cast abilities do not reset the swing timer. As for not getting an autoattack w/out a seal, I recommend a swingtimer (I use Quartz). Personally I use the following macro for judge/reseal...

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

Watching the swingtimer I time my clicks of the judge/reseal macro soon after a swing prioritizing CS first of course (judgeing and getting the new seal up before your next swing will happen).

Last edited by Renaud : 12/18/07 at 3:02 PM.
#1260SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
So Horde get an amazingly powerful ret seal and alliance get... something to keep rogues from vanishing in PvP (though if you're not laying down the Rank I consecrates you deserve to be double cheap shotted anyway). Good game.
Actually... With SoB getting through CoS, we are also better to keep them from vanishing than you are. Good game indeed :P
#1261SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
1.25% expertise racial... yes please..
#1262SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
1.25% expertise racial... yes please..
How exactly is class specific spell related to race specific racials? Should we also mention Dwarfs? No, lets not go there. Those 2 have no relation. Current situation is like Horde shamans whould have Bloodlust that only effects melee speed, and Alliance shamans would have Heroism that only effects spell casting speed. The arguing would be enormous. Think of an advantages over healing scenarios that Alliance would have. We have similiar situation going with SoV versus SoB, in a different environment. Even when SoV is Retribution seal, it is considered as tanking spell. Where SoB is considered as pure DPS seal.
#1263SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
I think the closest thing the SoV versus SoB argument resembles is the old Fear Ward problems. Its the same kind of thing, one faction having a vastly superior skill to the other. It isn't a mandatory ability for every encounter, but it makes things a lot easier. I think having nice little flavor differences between factions and races is a very good idea, but something as game breaking as SoB or Fear Ward really shouldn't be confined to one race.

I really hope Blizzard either gives SoB to both factions (of course renaming it for alliance, the whole Blood thing doesn't really work for us) or fix SoV to either be a guaranteed proc or unresistable (which would make it a much better tanking seal). Or fix Seal of Command to be useful, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
1.25% expertise racial... yes please..
Don't get me started on Tauren bear tanks. Racials are an entirely different topic.
#1264SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0AriasImmortal
I had some questions, at work so I can't check the spreadsheet:

I specced ret yesterday as my guild was short on DPS for the night (11 healers, though) and I'm hoping that they'll let me stay and play around with it. I'm primarily holy though my ret gear isn't half bad, just need new boots, cloak, trinkets, and I need to enchant everything.

Are the season 3 gloves a massive upgrade over pillager's gauntlets?
I'm almost hit capped (5.5% or something before precision), would it be better to get the str/int helm enchant or the ap/hit one?

Also, what unbuffed stats should I be shooting for to be competitive against t6 geared DPS?
#1265SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by AriasImmortal View Post
I had some questions, at work so I can't check the spreadsheet:

I specced ret yesterday as my guild was short on DPS for the night (11 healers, though) and I'm hoping that they'll let me stay and play around with it. I'm primarily holy though my ret gear isn't half bad, just need new boots, cloak, trinkets, and I need to enchant everything.

Are the season 3 gloves a massive upgrade over pillager's gauntlets?
I'm almost hit capped (5.5% or something before precision), would it be better to get the str/int helm enchant or the ap/hit one?

Also, what unbuffed stats should I be shooting for to be competitive against t6 geared DPS?
The season 3 gloves are a must. I cant think of a scenario where they wouldn't be better.

Get a Darkmoon: Crusade card if you are thinking about staying ret. Its expensive, but its the best ret trinket save maybe the Dragonspine Trophy.

Personally I am over the hitcap with no gems, so I use the str/int enchant. Pretty much all the gear in T6 comes with more than enough hit, and if not you can always gem it. Also, snag a relentless earthstorm diamond if you can.

In terms of stats: ~1850 AP, 30-35% crit, hit capped, expertise helps a lot if you can swing it. Spell damage is pretty marginal, but if you have some tier gear, that should be enough.
#1266SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Argavaine
I have a Question about BT exalted trinket for Paladins Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal - Items - World of Warcraft. It scales with vengeance and sanctity aura and it does 155 damage/2 sec with both up. That means 620/16 sec->38,75 dps. Ok sometimes you can get double proc and sometimes no procs for a while but nevertheless it seems to be pretty nice. What do you think about it?

Last edited by Argavaine : 12/19/07 at 6:56 PM.
#1267SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aurius
A small update. Several weeks back I posted on this thread about advice on talents and that for being ret since I was having hard issues proving to my guild that ret can work, and to keep bringing me. I am happy to report on SSC Hydross to Kara nights I can push 800+ dps, similar in TK. We even killed vashj recently (First kill horde side on durotan) and I have been ret the entire time except one raid where we had a complete lack of healers. Been awesome recently and to those that gave advice previously thanks a lot. Done with most of my gear as well from SSC/TK but a few upgrades left to get : )).
#1268SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
1.25% expertise racial... yes please..
This meant "While we're whinging about something we don't have..." but I guess its a sore spot none the less.

At either rate, I like the variations across races/classes and I think their should be more of it. I also agree with the buffing of SoV to support the notion that Alliance paladins aren't as dementedly crazed on retribution (in the concept sense, not game talented) as their illgotten-power crazed elvish brethren. =]
#1269SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ysabelle
I'm stumped. I cant choose between Executioner or Mongoose for my Soul Cleaver. I would typically go for the mongoose since I'm a BE and the haste proc helps out Sob a ton. The only reason I'm considering Executioner now is because I have a nice amount of armor pen already unbuffed. With Soul cleaver, in my raid gear I have exactly 777 armor pen(lucky me, /rolleyes). We use FF, curse of reck and Imp EA since we dont use warrior mt's. Thats alot of armor reduction already. Will it outdps the mongoose enchant at this point?
#1270SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
I think debating the weapon enchant topic further is equivalent to beating a dead horse at this point. I'll sum it up by saying you have two options: toy with the spreadsheet and find your answer that way, or pick the prettier enchant. I think the overall difference is minimal at best. I prefer mongoose over executioner simply because executioner doesn't scale as well on higher-armor targets, but its great for pvp vs clothies.
#1271SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wrl
I would like to see more discussion about the Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal. Here is what I can put together:

1. It is holy damage.
2. It is 30dps base if you judge ever 8 seconds exactly.
3. Theoretically it should do (480/8)*.5*1.3*1.1*1.02*1.05 damage with 3/3 vengeance, Sanctity Aura, and Misery. That should be 46 dps, theoretically way more than any other trinket.

Now the questions for those that actually have it:

1. What does it ACTUALLY scale with? Arg tends to think that he wasn't getting this level of damage from scaling.
2. Is it resistable?
3. Does it have the refresh on CS bug ala Libram of Avengement?


Enduring Judgement - Spells - World of Warcraft is the effect for those curious. Not a whole lot of info there to work with.

Can we basically confirm that this and Darkmoon Card: Crusade is the best PvE DPS combo?
#1272SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
You assume a perfect uptime for it which is hugely inaccurate. First, a successful proc on a judgement will not put a new debuff but simply refresh the time of the already ticking one. Second, in a 25 person raid it will be pushed off the mob all the time by other debuffs. It's really great on paper but quite lacking in practice unfortunately.
#1273SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aramul
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
You assume a perfect uptime for it which is hugely inaccurate. First, a successful proc on a judgement will not put a new debuff but simply refresh the time of the already ticking one. Second, in a 25 person raid it will be pushed off the mob all the time by other debuffs. It's really great on paper but quite lacking in practice unfortunately.
The debuff lasts 8 seconds. Under perfect judging conditions, the debuff will drop at the same time your judgement cooldown comes up. Buffed with Vengeance, Misery, Sanctity Aura, and Crusade, the proc will deal 167.4 damage every 2 seconds, or 669.8 damage every proc. Since a proc occurs every other judgement, and judgements occur every 9 seconds in a good dps cycle, the trinket deals 669.8/18=37.2 dps. However it has the disadvantage of being a debuff which can both knock off better debuffs (what isn't better than a 37.2 dps dot?) and be knocked off by other debuffs.
#1274SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I think debating the weapon enchant topic further is equivalent to beating a dead horse at this point. I'll sum it up by saying you have two options: toy with the spreadsheet and find your answer that way, or pick the prettier enchant. I think the overall difference is minimal at best. I prefer mongoose over executioner simply because executioner doesn't scale as well on higher-armor targets, but its great for pvp vs clothies.
For me it depends on my weapon.
Since soul cleaver is the best that's dropped for me, I slapped executioner on it to add to my existing armor ignore.

If the torch drops, i'll probably put mongoose on it.
If the archimonde sword drops, executioner (or maybe because of its speed, i might even consider savagery)
#1275SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wh0areume
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
However it has the disadvantage of being a debuff which can both knock off better debuffs (what isn't better than a 37.2 dps dot?) and be knocked off by other debuffs.
Because of this, i know it's not even an option for me.
We have debuffs being pushed off constantly.
#1276SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Deathwing
We had a debate about this in guild a few weeks ago. Aren't armor debuffs a percentage dps increase regardless of the target's armor(unless it's zero)? This is basically the reverse of stacking armor. Yes, the AC to DR conversion has diminishing returns, but the AC to delta DR is linear...so wouldn't subtracting armor work the same way?
#1277SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Re: Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal...

Does anyone know if this thing has an internal cooldown?
#1278SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wrl
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
We had a debate about this in guild a few weeks ago. Aren't armor debuffs a percentage dps increase regardless of the target's armor(unless it's zero)? This is basically the reverse of stacking armor. Yes, the AC to DR conversion has diminishing returns, but the AC to delta DR is linear...so wouldn't subtracting armor work the same way?
AC to Time to Live is Linear, but any change in AC has more of a change in DR at lower armor.

Here is a helpful graph


And the equation for that graph (basically):



Where
y=the % increase to physical damage
x=the target's armor
z=the armor penetration
#1279SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wrl
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Re: Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal...

Does anyone know if this thing has an internal cooldown?
99.999% sure it doesn't. Giving it a 8 second internal cooldown would prevent it from that refreshing bug however (if it is true).
#1280SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aramul
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Re: Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal...

Does anyone know if this thing has an internal cooldown?
None of the Ashtongue trinkets have internal cooldowns.
#1281SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Lackdanon
Omen Threat meters with Ret dps.

Heyas, I´m finding that Omen isn´t calculating my threat properly and I find my self way over the MT when I just Auto attack and CS with out even judging. Is this still the case or whats the latest version with the real Threat numbers for ret. I just updated to Omen-r55025. Is this the latest one?

Thanks,

Lackdanon
#1282SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
That should be the latest version... I'm using a version from like a week ago and it works perfectly.
#1283SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mind
Cataclysm's Edge VS Torch of the Damned

Hi guys, about one totally different question. What do you think its better for blood elf paladin (SoB).

[Cataclysm's Edge] or [Torch of the Damned]

I have it both, but dunno why I feel the sword its better for pve.

I actually have some WWS here, as you can check dps:

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Retribution Black Temple DPS - WWS

My actual unbuffed stats with the sword sit around 2000ap, 29-30% crit, 1147 armor penetration and 31 haste (1.97%). Because my gear is ArP based I feel the sword its better for dps.

I would like to know if anyone already stacked alot of haste gear and checked a really noticeable dps increase.

But, in general, what would you say its best for SoB, sword or mace?
#1284SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mind View Post
Hi guys, about one totally different question. What do you think its better for blood elf paladin (SoB).

[Cataclysm's Edge] or [Torch of the Damned]

I have it both, but dunno why I feel the sword its better for pve.

I actually have some WWS here, as you can check dps:

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Retribution Black Temple DPS - WWS

My actual unbuffed stats with the sword sit around 2000ap, 29-30% crit, 1147 armor penetration and 31 haste (1.97%). Because my gear is ArP based I feel the sword its better for dps.

I would like to know if anyone already stacked alot of haste gear and checked a really noticeable dps increase.

But, in general, what would you say its best for SoB, sword or mace?
Front page weapon examples show CE as about 2 DPS higher than TotD with SoB. These are just rough comparisons but you get the gist (the differences between the two weapons are small). As with nearly everything regarding those two weapons, its really what you get first and personal choice from there. Can't go wrong with either one. Now if you (for some odd reason) start stacking huge amounts of armor penetration the sword will begin to give more benefit, as the more Armor Pen you have the more effective each point of it becomes.

Haste has been proven the best stat for anyone using SoB.

Actually though, your post reminded me of something I've been meaning to do for a while.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 12/22/07 at 3:53 AM.
#1285SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
Haste has been proven to be the best for Seal of Blood? I find that odd.

A typical recount shows my damage broken up like this:

Melee (46%)
Crusader Strike (24%)
Seal of Blood (20%)
Judgement of Blood (10%)

Given that CS and my autoattack are the largest portions of my dps, wouldn't stacking ArP be more beneficial than stacking Haste which effects a smaller portion of my dps?
Or am I missing something here that makes Haste amazing?
#1286SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
edit:
Or am I missing something here that makes Haste amazing?
More Haste => More white hits => more SoB => Way more dps _o/
#1287SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
So to give a little rough example as to why haste is so good.

Lets say you're using a regular old 3.8 speed weapon with Seal of Blood. You hit with every attack for exactly 1000 white and then 350 yellow.

Example 1: No Haste
Swing Timer: 3.8 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 355.26
Now lets say you go on a DKP binge and buy 150 passive haste rating on new gear (~10% increased attack speed). Your weapon speed now drops dramatically while the damage output remains the same.

Example 2: 10% haste
Swing Timer: 3.42 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 394.74
As you can see, that 10% haste increased your DPS fairly dramatically. It is quite possible to get a very slow weapon (such as TotD) down to a very quick attack speed if you gear correctly. You will be keeping the very high topend damage of a slow weapon, yet hitting very quickly. Thanks to Seal of Blood's amazing mechanics, its damage scales very well with haste rating.

And just to give a very extreme example, lets say you popped a Haste Potion with all your passive haste gear on. You now have a total of 550 haste rating, which works out to about a 35% attack speed increase.

Example 3: Haste Potion + Haste Gear
Swing Timer: 2.47 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 546.56
Yes, haste is very nice.
#1288SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kazekan
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So to give a little rough example as to why haste is so good.

Lets say you're using a regular old 3.8 speed weapon with Seal of Blood. You hit with every attack for exactly 1000 white and then 350 yellow.

Example 1: No Haste
Swing Timer: 3.8 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 355.26
Now lets say you go on a DKP binge and buy 150 passive haste rating on new gear (~10% increased attack speed). Your weapon speed now drops dramatically while the damage output remains the same.

Example 2: 10% haste
Swing Timer: 3.42 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 394.74
As you can see, that 10% haste increased your DPS fairly dramatically. It is quite possible to get a very slow weapon (such as TotD) down to a very quick attack speed if you gear correctly. You will be keeping the very high topend damage of a slow weapon, yet hitting very quickly. Thanks to Seal of Blood's amazing mechanics, its damage scales very well with haste rating.

And just to give a very extreme example, lets say you popped a Haste Potion with all your passive haste gear on. You now have a total of 550 haste rating, which works out to about a 35% attack speed increase.

Example 3: Haste Potion + Haste Gear
Swing Timer: 2.47 seconds
White Attack: 1000
Seal of Blood: 350
DPS: 546.56
Yes, haste is very nice.
You gain 10% haste, but don't lose ANYTHING? In what scenario (except jumping from a T4 gear level to T6 of course), will you not sacrifice any other stats for haste? Since I'm not a ret pally for raids, I don't know what stats you end up actually giving up, but for Holy, you end up losing MP5/crit for the most part. I won't argue that haste isn't great for SoB, however I highly doubt that your white dmg & SoB dmg would be the same for both gear setups (unless of course you're sacrificing something like crit & INT/STA/SD or something). Just seems a bit misleading.
#1289SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Handled
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
You gain 10% haste, but don't lose ANYTHING? In what scenario (except jumping from a T4 gear level to T6 of course), will you not sacrifice any other stats for haste? Since I'm not a ret pally for raids, I don't know what stats you end up actually giving up, but for Holy, you end up losing MP5/crit for the most part. I won't argue that haste isn't great for SoB, however I highly doubt that your white dmg & SoB dmg would be the same for both gear setups (unless of course you're sacrificing something like crit & INT/STA/SD or something). Just seems a bit misleading.
The sacrifice you make for Haste is Critical Strike but you also pickup Hit in fact when I'm haste stacked I find my hitting rating is pretty high but I still have to throw on Mail boots with +Hit to cap @ 142. With Vengeance as it currently is I see no reason to not stack Haste and Arm Pen that is what I have been doing and have pulled some higher numbers the past few weeks. The only thing I find I still lack is mana for sustained DPS I have to choose between Haste pots or Mana pots and it's a choice I wish didn't matter.
#1290SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
You gain 10% haste, but don't lose ANYTHING? In what scenario (except jumping from a T4 gear level to T6 of course), will you not sacrifice any other stats for haste? Since I'm not a ret pally for raids, I don't know what stats you end up actually giving up, but for Holy, you end up losing MP5/crit for the most part. I won't argue that haste isn't great for SoB, however I highly doubt that your white dmg & SoB dmg would be the same for both gear setups (unless of course you're sacrificing something like crit & INT/STA/SD or something). Just seems a bit misleading.
Well, yes you sometimes lose some other stats for haste, but in general for SOB if you can wear the items while maintaining hit cap...

For example : Red belt of battle is 4 dps less than Belt of Seething Fury(haste) as long as you can maintain hit cap.
Band of Devastation is also the 2nd best ring in game after Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring.
Swiftsteel Bracers end up being slightly better than Furious Shackles in the long run as well.

Its not all that hard to actually grab quite a little bit of haste, Personally, I am just gonna grab haste gear whenever nobody wants it just to test / mess around with it, Swinging a torch at 2 speed sounds like it might be fun

I think the biggest problem people have with haste is it is slightly harder to notice unless you have a whole lot of it... especially spell haste... If your holy light is casting .2 seconds faster it is sort of hard to tell, but when you have 200 more +heal, it is very easy to notice.
#1291SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
You gain 10% haste, but don't lose ANYTHING? In what scenario (except jumping from a T4 gear level to T6 of course), will you not sacrifice any other stats for haste? Since I'm not a ret pally for raids, I don't know what stats you end up actually giving up, but for Holy, you end up losing MP5/crit for the most part. I won't argue that haste isn't great for SoB, however I highly doubt that your white dmg & SoB dmg would be the same for both gear setups (unless of course you're sacrificing something like crit & INT/STA/SD or something). Just seems a bit misleading.
If you look at random epics from BT that have haste versus those that do not the stat you are going to sacrifice is Critical Strike Rating. Most of the haste gear is still well endowed with hit rating, and Strength is available in droves. In reality, as long as you keep your crit high enough to keep Vengeance up (very easy to do with the extended duration) and stay hit capped you will notice a large increase in DPS from haste items without a huge loss of other stats. The problem does come about that you will be sacrificing real Paladin gear in order to wear haste rating warrior epics, which will be a dent in your mana pool. But, in all honesty, the 2-piece Lightbringer bonus is all you really need at that level for most fights (and of course the Season 3 gloves). It is quite attainable to stack a huge amount of haste rating and maintain or even increase your white damage.

Spell Haste is an entirely different matter, as the BT/Hyjal plate healing haste sets are terribly itemized (loss of all regen for haste, no thanks). You really can not compare the two.
#1292SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Handled
Originally Posted by Nayair View Post
Find someone with comparable gear on SWS, get a breakdown of how much extra dps they pull entirely due to WF, and then compare it to a similar gear-level rogue's extra dps due to WF. Make links. Show that you're right.

Not that I necessarily think it'll help, your raid leaders sound like the same kind of people who were saying "lol why would a priest go shadow" for several months after BC came out. However, there's a marginal chance that real-world data will work where "logic" and "math" doesn't (seriously who uses those). ...Or they'll just claim that the rogue in your data sucks. I had to deal with the same flak but it went away the moment I got WF and started breathing down the rogues' necks.
I think this is a very fair comparison for what any Horde Paladin in BT and Hyjal gear can expect when properly geared and put into a group with proper melee makeup. As you can see by the results we only got 1 Bloodlust, I rotate 2 AW's into my rotation because I know how fast after combat starts I can use the first one. I was using a set of Partial Arm Pen and Haste gear the same setup from this Build - Requital - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

I found it to be an effective build but I still can't really decide if it's the best I can do.

Wow Web Stats

Last edited by Handled : 12/22/07 at 5:57 PM.
#1293SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
Seems like nobody saw the first part of my question...

Haste is good, but it only affects about 70% of my damage whereas ArP would effect about 75%.

What makes Haste better than Armor Penetration, especially considering that the more ArP you get the more valuable it becomes?
#1294SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Handled
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Seems like nobody saw the first part of my question...

Haste is good, but it only affects about 70% of my damage whereas ArP would effect about 75%.

What makes Haste better than Armor Penetration, especially considering that the more ArP you get the more valuable it becomes?
I'm in the same debate but as Paladins we have a limited amount of ArP we can get without killing our stats off. So I don't go overboard, Haste however is all over the place I agree with you that they should both be as useful but the sacrifice for ArP is greater in other stat reduction then Haste is. Not to mention our current T6 is still broken and the 4PC is garbage.
#1295SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
I'd say haste also benefits the paladin in ways such as more chances at JoW/JoL procs which in the long run equates to more dps from longevity.

At the moment, we gain no bonus from just hitting harder. It would make sense for Blizzard to give paladins (or just ret paladins) an inbuilt VT for such a task. The sooner we don't have to chain chug mana pots, the more effectiveness we will push out.
#1296SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Seems like nobody saw the first part of my question...

Haste is good, but it only affects about 70% of my damage whereas ArP would effect about 75%.

What makes Haste better than Armor Penetration, especially considering that the more ArP you get the more valuable it becomes?
I could be wrong, being that I haven't been ret since day 1 or anything, but I thought ArP only affects white hits?

And even if it were to affect Crusader Strikes as well as white hits, Haste would end up being more damage anyway, It may affect slightly less damage, but it adds JoW / JoL procs, creates more windfury hits, possibly adds another white hit in a AW / Haste pot as well...

Again, just my opinions, I don't actually have any numbers to put behind it because I have not been able to pick up more haste than a band of devastation

Also I think it has been covered multiple times over that the actual increase in damage by stacking armor penetration doesn't warrant it much extra value.

Last edited by SomeoneRandom : 12/23/07 at 2:59 AM.
#1297SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0galzohar
You guys need to remember it's far from only "how much of my dmg does this stat affect?" it's also "how much would this stat cost?" Obvoiusly a stat that increases 1/2 your dmg by 1% will be better than a stat that costs double and increases 3/4 of your dmg by 1%.
For example with stats we know their value, you need a lot less hit rating than crit rating to get 1%, so hit is way better than crit (until cap) even though 1% hit isn't that much better than 1% crit. So when comparing haste and ArP you need to take their costs into account, or even better to compare actual items you can actually choose between and see which gives more DPS, as at the end DPS is what matters, not which stat is better dps per itemization.
#1298SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Handled
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
You guys need to remember it's far from only "how much of my dmg does this stat affect?" it's also "how much would this stat cost?" Obvoiusly a stat that increases 1/2 your dmg by 1% will be better than a stat that costs double and increases 3/4 of your dmg by 1%.
For example with stats we know their value, you need a lot less hit rating than crit rating to get 1%, so hit is way better than crit (until cap) even though 1% hit isn't that much better than 1% crit. So when comparing haste and ArP you need to take their costs into account, or even better to compare actual items you can actually choose between and see which gives more DPS, as at the end DPS is what matters, not which stat is better dps per itemization.
In the current state of WoW, Warriors have access to ArP in abundance compared to Paladin based on T6. We have a few rings, a Neck and if we get ArP past that point we are forced to take ZA gear. I'm pretty sure to get more ArP I would lose crit and hit from ZA loot.

Last edited by Handled : 12/23/07 at 7:38 PM.
#1299SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0urukai
hi guyz, first i want to thank u for this rly wonderful thread.

second i want to ask u if [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] really better than [Grips of Silent Justice].

i always thought they are better but then i started to calculate-> WoW Web Stats

on archimonde i did 84k damage with cs with s3 gloves on. without the gloves it would be 80k(? 84000/105x5?). this is an overall damage increase of 1%

with the grips i would get 20 more strenght and 175 armor ignore.shouldnt this better?
the most bosses have 7700 armor or 6200
7700:
fully debuffed without CoR -> 4490 which is a 30% migation, now -175 armor ignore and it would be 29% migation which would be 1% damage increase for Melee,SoB and CS?

6200:
fully debuffed without CoR -> 2990-> 22% migation, -175 =20,5% migation which would be 1,5% damage increase?

hope u can help me to find an error in my math or confirm it

the formula i used to calc the migation is armor/(armor+10557.5)
#1300SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Vamperica
hi guys i recently got Mark of the Champion what do you guys think of that seems to me its better than berserker trinket because you dont have to wait for a cd to use it and your getting a constint 150 ap in those 2m berserker is down.

Also snaged illidans helm ;p thats one for the ret.

i looked on forum but how do i post links to items were i just mouse over and it pops up the item info and stuff.
#1301SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Vamperica View Post
hi guys i recently got Mark of the Champion what do you guys think of that seems to me its better than berserker trinket because you dont have to wait for a cd to use it and your getting a constint 150 ap in those 2m berserker is down.

Also snaged illidans helm ;p thats one for the ret.

i looked on forum but how do i post links to items were i just mouse over and it pops up the item info and stuff.
To put in cool little mouseover links to items you just use the [*ITEM]Item name[*/ITEM] tags (without the asteriks of course).

If you're looking for passive attack power [Bloodlust Brooch] works out to be about 118 AP, and [Berserker's Call] is 150 AP, assuming you pop the trinket exactly every two minutes. So by straight theorycraft the KT trinket is better than Bloodlust Brooch and equal to Berserker's Call.

That being said, I am personally of the opinion that [Mark of the Champion] would be better against bosses that you can use it on (all of hyjal, most of BT). It provides the same AP benefit as Berserker's Call but doesn't jump from low to high every 2 minutes. Also, BC requires you to stay on top of your trinket cooldowns, which everyone has failed to do at least once. Of course, the on use ability on BC is amazing for AW cycles or Heroisms, during which the KT trinket doesn't give any spectacular benefit. Both are good trinkets though. Personal choice.
#1302SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Jack Thompson Syndrome...

Anyhow, atm, Im still a little disappointed in retadin dps in the overall sense. The only time my performance is outstanding/comparative to other dps is when I have fulltime totem support and a lot of mana incoming. I find it discouraging that this is the only time a retadin will prove themselves and the mistake of not giving them WF (or a negligent resto shaman) will only further degrade the opinion.

btw, Merry Xmas Retadins... I hope you all got the chance to shut -some- ppl up and look forward to a new year of big floating numbers from the crit goddess.
#1303SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dolamroth
I'm Still having Threat problems with my tank on boss fights that allow me to Whale on said boss,Any tips?I'm trying to get

Prism of Inner Calm,But she wont Drop it for me.
#1304SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Highborne
Alright, here is a question that I guess only I have ever thought.

What is more beneficial for a haste build Ret paladin using Seal of Blood?

I currently have +10 haste helm and +10 haste glove enchants on Helm of the Illidari Shatterer and Pillager's Gauntlets.

I sit at 79 hit rating (I know a tad low) with 1840 attack power and 27.85% crit. I bought the Vengeful Gladiator Scaled Gauntlets which lowers my hit rating more if I use them (looking for a work around for that, ie hit gem in chest and maybe surefooted enchant) but I want to know what people's opinions are on haste on gloves/helm.

Name: Highborne
Realm: Illidan
#1305SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Anarkii
15 str enchant on gloves is slightly better than 10 haste rating because of Divine Strength and Kings. 34AP/16Hit is much much superior to 10 Haste Rating on helm when you're not hit capped.
#1306SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Highborne
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
15 str enchant on gloves is slightly better than 10 haste rating because of Divine Strength and Kings. 34AP/16Hit is much much superior to 10 Haste Rating on helm when you're not hit capped.


Assume hit capped even though I am not currently.

Would 17str/16 int > 10 haste helm (If 15 str gloves is I would assume same for helm)

Do you have numbers to back this up?
#1307SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Anarkii
Use Bellator's Spreadsheet linked in the first post. Haste enchants are missing, but you can manually add the enchants and check for the same. Being hitcapped, 17str/16int is the best head enchant.
#1308SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Antiock
What's your general opinion on mana/intellect? Do you shoot for a specific mana pool, or when comparing items do you say "i'd be willing to lose the 5 strength from one item for 20 int from the other"?

Basically I've noticed that whenever I have a tough gear choice to make, it's choosing between warrior drops in raids, which have no intellect, or pvp epics which generally have less str/hit/crit/whatever.

Right now I have about 6k mana unbuffed, and a lot of the time it seems like way too much, but every once in a while I run out of mana and feel like an idiot.
#1309SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
What's your general opinion on mana/intellect? Do you shoot for a specific mana pool, or when comparing items do you say "i'd be willing to lose the 5 strength from one item for 20 int from the other"?

Basically I've noticed that whenever I have a tough gear choice to make, it's choosing between warrior drops in raids, which have no intellect, or pvp epics which generally have less str/hit/crit/whatever.

Right now I have about 6k mana unbuffed, and a lot of the time it seems like way too much, but every once in a while I run out of mana and feel like an idiot.
As a Retribution Paladin you really only have three things you need to worry about in a raid:

1. Keep up your unique buffs and debuffs.
1. Don't die.
2. Do high DPS.

In my experience, Intellect doesn't really do any of the above in any meaningful fashion. It'll increase your longevity slightly - about 1 second per 1 Intellect - but at the cost of other DPS stats. If you sacrifice Strength, for example, you lose about a proportional amount of DPS. Plus, you can chug super mana potions - or even free major mana potions from daily quests, or AFK'ing in AV - and eliminate your mana problems entirely regardless of your equipment.

It's just not worth losing as high as 5% of your DPS by going with the current crop of "Paladin DPS" gear, when wearing off-set pieces will get you better results, and with none of the negatives if you're using mana potions. We've got enough (mostly unjustified now) negative stigma to work through already, and handicapping ourselves doesn't help terribly much with the problem.
#1310SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
What's your general opinion on mana/intellect? Do you shoot for a specific mana pool, or when comparing items do you say "i'd be willing to lose the 5 strength from one item for 20 int from the other"?

Basically I've noticed that whenever I have a tough gear choice to make, it's choosing between warrior drops in raids, which have no intellect, or pvp epics which generally have less str/hit/crit/whatever.

Right now I have about 6k mana unbuffed, and a lot of the time it seems like way too much, but every once in a while I run out of mana and feel like an idiot.
Depending on your content level, you'll want at least a couple of pieces of "real" ret gear with INT on them. Everyone should have the Season 3 Gloves; in addition to their sweet bonus they pack 22 Intellect (with BoK ~360 mana). In addition, the 2 piece bonus for tier 5 and tier 6 are great ways to become more efficient, so you'll be getting at least another 50 INT or so from there. In all regards, you can be very effective with only this additional INT. Of course, more mana means more longevity, which means you might be able to skip one or two Super Mana cooldowns in exchange for Haste Pots, or even weave in Consecration and Exorcism into your cycle. However, point for point I would guess that INT is far less of a DPS contributer than STR.

One interesting thing to note about the changes that have been going into ret is the (partial) removal of spell damage. I am hopeful that 2.4 will also bring a reitemization to the Ret tier sets with the substitution of the Spell Damage for more useful STR or crit, which will make the tier sets (with INT) more appealing to wear.
#1311SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
grayrest
Does anybody use fel mana pots? I hit 70 two weeks ago and I now have a passable gear set--s1 sword, 1575 ap, 25.4% crit, .2% under hit cap without precision--with absolutely no spell damage because SoB doesn't need it and CS won't either in a few weeks.

The two issues I'm unsure about are 1) whether you can have negative spell damage (which would affect JoB and consecrate/exorcism) and 2) does the debuff interact with JotC? Basically, the question is whether fel mana pots have the drawback when you're at 0 spell damage or not. I'm not sure what you'd do with the extra mana, but I figure more mana can't hurt.

Last edited by grayrest : 12/27/07 at 10:09 PM.
#1312SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Anarkii
They're worth using if you can afford it. More mana means you can use the next pot cooldown on haste pots, for example.
#1313SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
I'd say no myself to jotc being affected by -dmg debuffs. Wouldn't the +dmg apply itself on the mob's received dmg rather than what the paladin delivers?

So you send a certain amount of dmg towards the mob based on your stats and then the mob applies its mitigations and dmg increases from vulnerabilities/debuffs, giving you your final number for the strike.
#1314SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by grayrest View Post
1) whether you can have negative spell damage (which would affect JoB and consecrate/exorcism)
Unless something has drastically changed in the last patch, no (at least on the character sheet).

Originally Posted by grayrest View Post
2) does the debuff interact with JotC?

This would be interesting to test. I'll jump on my warrior and make some fel manas after the raid tonight and check it out. I'll update when I have data.

EDIT: Just realized I can not test the results well because of the fact that I am still holy and thus even naked have a small amount of spell damage due to spec. Sorry. If one of our ret friends could quickly test it that would be stellar.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 12/28/07 at 5:09 AM. Reason: Can't test
#1315SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Theras
All tests were with a two handed weapon, with zero spell damage, and Seal of Righteousness. No percentage modifiers were present as I'm currently Protection specced and unbuffed.

Baseline test: 159 - 160 damage per strike.
Judgement of the Crusader up: 249 - 250 damage per strike.
Fel Ache up: 149 - 150 damage per strike.
Judgement of the Crusader and Fel Ache up: 239 - 240 damage per strike.

My character sheet did go down to -25 spell damage when I quaffed the Fel Mana Potion. So you can indeed go negative on spell damage, and the debuff is indeed detrimental to Retribution Paladins (roughly 3-4 DPS per potion you drink in a fight). Of course, if you were to use the extra 800 average mana you gain from the potion to cast minimum rank Consecrations you'd gain about 4-5 DPS, so it would be a wash. It really comes down to what's cheaper: Fel Mana Potions, or Super Mana Potions. Probably the Supers, if your realm is anything like Uther.

Edit: Also interesting to note is that the character sheet doesn't go negative on healing, but you still lose an amount equal to -50 healing off your spells. I wonder if this is unintended?

Last edited by Theras : 12/28/07 at 3:48 AM.
#1316SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gormal
After 2.3.2, I don't see a downside for horde paladins other than a reduced effect from JoL (and what paladin doesn't want other people to heal them anyway?) As it stands now, horde paladins should already be using these as you can make up the minimal loss in dps with a single consecrate allowed by the 400+ mana if you're wearing pure str/crit gear. This is a really interesting question and a great answer quickly, though. As far as the poor alliance saps are concerned, I don't see the loss of a little spell damage hurting your command damage enough to make up for the extra mana you're bound to gain from these things.
#1317SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Merple
Are there any recommendations for talent specs for Ret oriented off-tanks? Essentially, I'd like to be able to tank normal and heroic instances while still maintaining a competitive Ret DPS build.

I'm thinking something along the lines of this: Essentially the only tanking talents I'm taking are Redoubt, Shield Spec and Imp RF. I assume for all normal instances and most heroics, the healer can make up for the lack of mitigation, so long as I hold aggro.

Last edited by Merple : 12/28/07 at 11:01 AM.
#1318SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tilted
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Are there any recommendations for talent specs for Ret oriented off-tanks? Essentially, I'd like to be able to tank normal and heroic instances while still maintaining a competitive Ret DPS build.

I'm thinking something along the lines of this: Essentially the only tanking talents I'm taking are Redoubt, Shield Spec and Imp RF. I assume for all normal instances and most heroics, the healer can make up for the lack of mitigation, so long as I hold aggro.
Don't bother with shield spec if you don't have Holy Shield. Put those points in Toughness instead, which will increase your overall survivability more. I'd also shift the points from Guardian's Favor into Toughness as well unless you want it specifically for PvP.
#1319SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Unless something has drastically changed in the last patch, no (at least on the character sheet).




This would be interesting to test. I'll jump on my warrior and make some fel manas after the raid tonight and check it out. I'll update when I have data.

EDIT: Just realized I can not test the results well because of the fact that I am still holy and thus even naked have a small amount of spell damage due to spec. Sorry. If one of our ret friends could quickly test it that would be stellar.
I've tested this. Hammer of the Naaru is my only +dmg, so 33. Popped 2 fel manas. Char sheet reads -31 +dmg.

So, this will affect JoB/Consc. About 16 dmg per pot for JoB and 32 per pot for Consc. Since I don't typically use Consc due to mana, I can live with the minor dmg debuff. And, since Fel's return mana over time, you can take them a bit sooner than you would a Super.
#1320SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Lockeed
I have a question regarding Retadin PvP gear for S3. For the non set epics, would it be better to go with the warrior gear, or to stick with the actual Retadin gear?
#1321SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Theras
Originally Posted by Lockeed View Post
I have a question regarding Retadin PvP gear for S3. For the non set epics, would it be better to go with the warrior gear, or to stick with the actual Retadin gear?
Well let's take a look at the [Vindicator's Plate Belt] and the [Vindicator's Scaled Belt]. The boots have the same stats.

You're going to gain Strength and a good chunk of Intellect going with the Scaled gear, at a loss of a bit of crit, resilience, and Stamina. Personally I value Strength over Crit, and I feel the loss of a minor amount of Resilience isn't really relevent since it's now possible to Resilience cap in the Season 3 gear. I went with the Scaled gear, since unlike PvE, having a deeper mana pool can matter for longer PvP fights where you're being ignored.

Your experience may vary.
#1322SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0grayrest
Originally Posted by Lockeed View Post
I have a question regarding Retadin PvP gear for S3. For the non set epics, would it be better to go with the warrior gear, or to stick with the actual Retadin gear?
IMO the only case you might choose plate is on the bracers if you want to snag the gem bonus [Vindicator's Scaled Bracers][Vindicator's Plate Bracers]. I use the orange as one of my RED activation gems.
#1323SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Luxury
General comment on haste: Keep in mind that haste is really only worth the cost in crit for SoB paladins. Because haste doesn't increase the SoC portion of your dps, point for point you're better off with crit for all current levels of crit achievable.
#1324SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Luxury
I also don't think S3 gloves are the best choice if you're not hitcapped and have decently high crit. In that case [Grips of Silent Justice] is better assuming 10 str gems in each slot. Remember that a 5% gain to CS is about a 1% gain in overall dps.

The int on S3 is irrelevant as most people with ret raiding experience can attest mana is generally not an issue, and int does little to help mana consumption anyway. MP5 is actually the far superior choice given the mana consumption rate of the standard abilities for improved longevity in PvE.

Last edited by Luxury : 01/02/08 at 3:31 PM.
#1325SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 frmorrison
MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Paladin DPS Gear Rankings

How are the items being ranked?
- Currently, this is for Seal of Command Retribution Paladins only.
That site is updated to include Seal of Blood.


Something I did not see listed, is Vindication (spell hit based) if it procs on a boss even though immune, can proc JoW and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.
#1326SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Something I did not see listed, is Vindication (spell hit based) if it procs on a boss even though immune, can proc JoW and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.
Mmmm, thats a good deal of mana return there given its new proc rate. Every little bit helps =]
#1327SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Prinsesa
Do we know if Vindication's proc rate goes up with more points? Extra JoW procs make it an interesting avenue to explore, even for Prot Paladins (I usually judge Wisdom to provide raid utility if threat isn't tight).
#1328SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0flyingtoastr
Well the PTR is refusing to allow me on so I can't test whether different ranks proc more/less often.

However, assuming a flat 30% proc rate (the only data I could find on WoWhead listed this, if its wrong please correct me), by moving 1 point into Vindication a paladin would gain a fair amount of Mp5. From only white attacks with a 3.8 speed weapon you would theoretically get an extra proc of JoW every 6 swings. This works out to be ~16 Mp5. Not too shabby for 1 talent point.
#1329SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tonyk
That's a great find. I never even thought about that.

I'll definitely try to work 1 point in Vindication in my future PVE builds
#1330SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Bellators Dps Model V24 (2.3.2)

Hi Guys,

Sorry I haven't been around for a long time, and the dps model has become slightly out of date. I havent been raiding for a long while now, and work, committments etc reduced the amount of time I had to keep informed of all the new happening and browze the forums as much as i would have like.

Thanks for all the PM's. They have all been read (if not responded to).

I did however want to get the model uptodate before 2.4 hits PTR (fingers crossed for more changes). I have updated the spreadsheet to V24 (2.3.2). It can be downloaded here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

There aren't a lot of changes since the last version:-

1) It is now 2.3.2 compliant - 110% CS & 80% Sanctified Crusader included
2) Have gone through the badge loot & ZA loot (including leather and mail) and added a lot of items.

There is no protection on the sheets so you can unhide and look at the item database and the dps calculation sheet. If you spot any items that are missing or have incorrect stats, or if you can make sense of all the calculations that are going on and see any mistakes please let me know.

Any additions/changes/suggestion etc are probably best addresses through a PM. I don't have as much time to browze the forums nowadays so may miss something, but can easily keep uptodate in my PM's and can respond to additions/changes etc in forums.

Regarding the one big issue with Open Office and compatibility issues that some have had. I'm sorry but I dont have the time to figure out / correct why there are compatibility issues (if anyone figures it out, please let me know). The file was created with Excel 2003. So that and later versions should be fine.

Anyway, enjoy and i hope to get a new version with your suggestions updated pre 2.4 and then some big changes with new gear etc when 2.4 hits

Have a nice weekend
#1331SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kandiru
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
That site is updated to include Seal of Blood.


Something I did not see listed, is Vindication (spell hit based) if it procs on a boss even though immune, can proc JoW and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.
I have aded 1 point in Vindication to my prot build, and I haven't seen a single double Jow (from swing and Vindication proc), not noticed any additional procs of JoW. Does Vindication definitely still have this behaviour?
#1332SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Kandiru View Post
I have aded 1 point in Vindication to my prot build, and I haven't seen a single double Jow (from swing and Vindication proc), not noticed any additional procs of JoW. Does Vindication definitely still have this behaviour?
I have not seen any double JoW procs. I don't think Vindication does so. (Might be worth tracking total hits + total JoW procs though - Is there a hidden proc limit?)


It definitely does count for the spell-damage buffs from the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] though.
#1333SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 frmorrison
The Vindication cannot double proc JoW, it just counts as another spell, so that will increase your chances of getting mana.

Anyway, this was observed on the current PTR.
#1334SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aramul
The Vindication thing was just a rumor, and never had any evidence to support it. Immune is just like miss or dodge, it is not a hit and will not proc abilities (windfury, seal of command, judgement of wisdom). Unless someone comes up with evidence in support, there's no reason to believe there's some crazy 'proc limit' on JoW that applies only to Vindication.
#1335SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sorry
I only have 2 old WWS-Reports to look at from ZA, one with 2/3 Vindication and one without, I specced out of it to reach BoK and didn't think the debuff was much useful.

Melee+SoC+CS+JoC hits, not counting Consecration:
For example on Narolakk,
with Vindication: 108 hits, 152 JoW procs
without Vindication: 126 hits, 93 JoW procs

Akil'zon:
with Vindication: 111 hits, 148 JoW procs
without Vindication: 115 hits, 84 JoW procs

Halaazi (can't be sure about JoW uptime here):
with: 122 hits, 138 procs
without: 153 hits, 68 procs

Looks like there is a connection, I guess more testing would be useful.

Last edited by Sorry : 01/05/08 at 7:19 PM.
#1336SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Hi Guys,

Sorry I haven't been around for a long time, and the dps model has become slightly out of date. I havent been raiding for a long while now, and work, committments etc reduced the amount of time I had to keep informed of all the new happening and browze the forums as much as i would have like.

Thanks for all the PM's. They have all been read (if not responded to).

I did however want to get the model uptodate before 2.4 hits PTR (fingers crossed for more changes). I have updated the spreadsheet to V24 (2.3.2).
Great! I had almost stopped following this thread, since the spreadsheet updates were the high point for me and MaxDPS.com just doesn't cut it (too simplistic, doesn't consider consecration/exorcism).

Welcome back, PM incoming.
#1337SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Dps Spreadsheet v25 (2.3.2)

Avitus, glad to hear you like the spreadsheet I checked out the maxdps site which i'd never heard of (guess it sprung up during my absense. I'm quite impressed. It doesnt have the complexities of a solo class model, but since it is dealing with every classes dps it can't be expected to and is a useful tool. It had great potential if the author has the time to continue expanding upon it.

Anyway, there is a new version (25) of the spreadsheet that can be downloaded here:-

[It appears the location i save files to is down at the moment. Will update this space as soon as i can upload]

Thanks to Kris and Kerri for feedback. Based on this, the following changes have been made:-

1) Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal added
2) Surefooted enchant for boots added
3) Bugs that occured surrounding pvp head/shoulder/bracer gear has been fixed
4) The Item analysis page has had a workover:-
a) There is now a dropdown box next to the "Item Analyse" button. It is default set to "All" in which case the analysis will look for upgrades on all your items, however the drop down can now be used to select an individual item of gear and the analysis will run only on that item
b) The feel of the page is more compact not (you'll see what i mean when you look and use it.

My next big to do is to get the spreadsheet functioning at the same level for SoB as it is for SoC. This may take a while, but hey, you've all been waiting 7 months for Sunwell so i know you're patient

Have a good weekend
#1338SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Meuble
Unless someone comes up with evidence in support, there's no reason to believe there's some crazy 'proc limit' on JoW that applies only to Vindication.
It's not "that" crazy. We know for sure that
It definitely does count for the spell-damage buffs from the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] though.
And we know as well that JoW proc from spells. Vindication could be (and from the two previous facts I'll tend to say is) considered as an offensive spell and can proc JoW like any other offensive spell. With sorry's wws moreover, I know I'll put a point in it next time I raid as ret (I'll try to record it to see if the numbers match the theory)


edit:
My next big to do is to get the spreadsheet functioning at the same level for SoB as it is for SoC.
Yeeeeeeah!
#1339SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
bellator
SOB Information Needed

To make the SoB section of the spreadsheet as accurate as possible. Need confirmation on the following questions:-

1) Does SoB proc off Crusader Strike?
2) Does SoB proc off a windfury hit?
3) Can SoB be Fully Resisted?
4) Can SoB be Partially Resisted?
5) Can SoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
6) Does SoB use Melee Crit?
7) Can JoB be Fully Resisted?
8) Can JoB be Partially Resisted?
9) Can JoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
10) Does Job Use Melee Crit?

I also need to know:-

11) What are the spell damage coefficnets for the different ranks of consecration. I know Rank 1 is 46% and Rank 6 is 95%. Dont know the rest.

Cheers

Last edited by bellator : 01/06/08 at 10:13 AM.
#1340SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Just a quick update. In the version of the spreadsheet i'm working on atm, all the functionality such as Item Analysis, Mana Efficiency, Skill Dps Breakdown now works for SoB.

As soon as i have the underlying calculations (as per previous mail sorted), should be ready for publishing (a lot quicker than i anticipated)
#1341SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Durandal
1) No
2) Yes
3) ?
4) ?
5) Yes
6) Yes
7) No
8) No

I'm fairly sure this is correct someone verify
#1342SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Durandel, i realised in my question list i used the same number multiple times. Have re-numbered them. If you get a sec to re-number your answers accordingly would be appreciated

Cheers
#1343SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Anyway, there is a new version (25) of the spreadsheet that can be downloaded here:-

[It appears the location i save files to is down at the moment. Will update this space as soon as i can upload]

Slightly off topic, but I can really recommend Filefront for this purpose.

A benefit would be you could just link to your profile directory there on the front post of this thread and we could see new (and old) files without having to worry about posting single file links, just a "new spreadsheet up!" message
#1344SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fiola
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The Vindication cannot double proc JoW, it just counts as another spell, so that will increase your chances of getting mana.

Anyway, this was observed on the current PTR.
Since Vindication is an on-hit proc, it always accompanies a melee hit. We know melee hits proc JoW, so if Vindication can proc JoW, we'd expect to see two JoW procs from time to time. We do not seem to see these "double procs".


However, Sorry's WWS stats show an increase in JoW procs with Vindication, so it looks like Vindication does affect JoW proc-rate, but not in a way that allows "double procs".
#1345SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Fiola, the most logical suggestion i could come up with whereby we get an increase in procs but not see double procs if it was programmed that a vindication proc could proc JoW so long as the melee hit that procced vindication did not also proc wow. To cite an example where this mechanic is present. I was under the impression that a windfury proc could proc SoC so long as the melee hit which proced windfury did not proc SoC.

However looking at Sorry's data. For the times when vindication was on, JoW procs > number of hits. I cant see how this can be the case without a double proc occuring.
#1346SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cromfel
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Hi Guys,

Have a nice weekend
Good to see you still around

I updated the OP.
#1347SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Avitus
Alright, I've been doing some tests to get the different co-efficients for Consecration and Exorcism for the spreadsheet (already PMed), when I stumbled on something very disturbing regarding JotC.

Consecration:

(To be read as follows: Rank x: Base damage per tick, Damage when using 222 spelldamage gear - co-efficient)

Rank 6: 64, 90 - 94%
Rank 5: 48, 74 - 94%
Rank 4: 35, 61 - 94%
Rank 3: 24, 45 - 76%
Rank 2: 15, 32 - 61%
Rank 1: 8, 21 - 47%

What was very intersting is that in contrast to normal spelldamage gained from gear, the spelldamage from JotC doesn't seem to be affected by the co-efficient decline when downranking.

Meaning that ALL ranks of Consecration gain 95% from the 219 spelldamage added by JotC.


After further testing, I also discovered that damage added from JotC is NOT affected by any multipliers like everything else (sanctity, imp sanctity, crusade, vengeance, avenging wrath).

This means that JotC will always add a static +26 DPS to consecration regardless of buffs or multipliers.


Consecration rank 6 on a humanoid (+3% from crusade), with 3 stacks of vengeance (+15%) and imp Sanctity aura (+12.2%) and 302 spelldamage (222 from gear + 80 from trinket stacks):

Test result 132 tick! Theorycraft: (64 + (302 * 0.95)/8) * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.03 * 1.15 = 132.72 DPS

Add JotC ("26 DPS"):

Test result 159 tick! Theorycraft: 26 + (64 + (302 * 0.95)/8) * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.03 * 1.15 = 158.72 DPS
Instead of 167.27 DPS if JotC spelldamage was affected by multipliers!

Add Avenging Wrath (+30%):

Test result 199 tick! Theorycraft: 26 + (64 + (302 * 0.95)/8) * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.03 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 198.53 DPS
Instead of 217.45 DPS if JotC spelldamage was affected by multipliers!


As you can see, damage gained from JotC does not benefit from any multipliers

Summary:

-Spelldamage added by JotC does not receive a penalty coefficient when downranking
-Spelldamage added by JotC does not benefit from any multipliers
-JotC will always add "26" more per tick to any rank of consecration regardless of buffs or multipliers


Exorcism:

I did not have time to test this fully and somehow I think it's silly to downrank this spell, given that max rank (7) exorcism costs 340 mana every 15 seconds, which is very little.

I suggest you just model the max rank, which receives a 43% co-efficient.

Also regarding JotC the same behavoir can be experienced as with Consecration, it's rank independant and multiplier independant, meaning JotC always adds 94.17 to any rank of exorcism regardless of multipliers/buffs.


I'm afraid through this bit of testing I've discovered a glaring flaw in one of our core abilities (JotC), I wouldn't be surprised if it gives a static buff that doesn't benefit from any multipliers on all abilities (SoC, Holy Wrath, Crusader Strike atm).

Last edited by Avitus : 01/06/08 at 10:55 PM.
#1348SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Avitus
This is a very big issue if you consider the loss of DPS to SoC and JoC (and currently Crusader Strike) from having the 219 holy spelldamage you gain from JotC NOT benefit from active multipliers.

As it stands, multipliers are the strong point of the retri dps and scalability, having JotC not benefit from it means we lose quiet a lot.

I used to consider JotC = +219 free spelldamage, but as I've learned now it is "219 spelldamage that does not benefit from any multipliers".

Multipliers:

Vengeance: +15%
Sanctity Aura: +10%
Crusade: +3%
Improved Sanctity Aura: +2%

=> Stacked = 32.9% => JotC 219 spelldamage would be equivalent of 291 spelldamage

Further for SoC:

2h spec: +6%

=> Stacked = 40.9% => JotC 219 spelldamage would be equivalent of 308.5 spelldamage

and Avenging Wrath (when used): +30%

=> Stacked = 72.7% (83.1% for SoC) => JotC 219 spelldamage would be equivalent of 378.4 (401.1 for SoC) spelldamage


This means, through this mechanics bug, for all our abilities that benefit from JotC (JoC, Exorcism, Consecration, Holy Wrath), we're losing: 72 spelldamage!

For all SoC procs we're losing: 89.5 spelldamage!

Both these numbers should not be underestimated as they're a pretty huge chunk of DPS we're losing on a constant basis (all these multipliers should have 100% uptime 10 seconds into the fight).

Just compare, a [Flask of Supreme Power] or a trinket, would give you slightly less than the 72 (and 89.5) spelldamage we're losing here respectively by not having JotC benefit from our multipliers.

Also while AW is up we're losing: 159.4 spelldamage and 182 spelldamage to SoC!


This is pretty huge, I suggest the somewhat louder blizzard forum activists of this community take this to the blizz forums and demand a fix

Last edited by Avitus : 01/06/08 at 11:00 PM.
#1349SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Rasputin
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
To make the SoB section of the spreadsheet as accurate as possible. Need confirmation on the following questions:-
I just ran Mother through Illidan to make sure of my remembered impressions, so here are the answers as best I know them.

1) Does SoB proc off Crusader Strike?
No

2) Does SoB proc off a windfury hit?
Yes

3) Can SoB be Fully Resisted?
No

4) Can SoB be Partially Resisted?
No

5) Can SoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
Yes, all of the above.

6) Does SoB use Melee Crit?
Yes

7) Can JoB be Fully Resisted?
No

8) Can JoB be Partially Resisted?
No

9) Can JoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
No, none of the above.

10) Does Job Use Melee Crit?
Yes

I also need to know:-

11) What are the spell damage coefficnets for the different ranks of consecration. I know Rank 1 is 46% and Rank 6 is 95%. Dont know the rest.

Cheers
Can't help you on this one.

I got these results and confirmation through Recount. I realize they are not scientific.

1032 SoB attacks.

355 JoB attacks.

Hope this helps.
#1350SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Anarkii
Can anyone explain this :

Zrave's Seal of Blood crits Essence of Anger for 2462 Holy damage (379 resisted)
That's the first time I've seen SoB partially resisted. I got multiple partial resists on that kill.

Oh, and

Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Essence of Anger for 1139 Holy damage (362 resisted)
on that same kill.
#1351SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Habaka
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Can anyone explain this :



That's the first time I've seen SoB partially resisted. I got multiple partial resists on that kill.

Oh, and



on that same kill.
That sure sounds odd :o

Was thinking if it could be something with the encounter, but I'v done RoS quite many times myself and dont remember ever getting partial resists... Maybe I should check some of our old WWS files if they are still hosted

( Oh and welcome back Bellator, sure have missed you and your spreadsheet <3 )

Edit: Just went through the WWS reports and didint encounter any resists or partial resists on RoS encounter, though the reports are old, since our WWS guy stopped logging a while back, so I dunno, new mechanic? :P

Last edited by Habaka : 01/07/08 at 4:18 AM.
#1352SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Valerys
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
To make the SoB section of the spreadsheet as accurate as possible. Need confirmation on the following questions:-

1) Does SoB proc off Crusader Strike?
2) Does SoB proc off a windfury hit?
3) Can SoB be Fully Resisted?
4) Can SoB be Partially Resisted?
5) Can SoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
6) Does SoB use Melee Crit?
7) Can JoB be Fully Resisted?
8) Can JoB be Partially Resisted?
9) Can JoB be missed/dodge/parried/blocked?
10) Does Job Use Melee Crit?

I also need to know:-

11) What are the spell damage coefficnets for the different ranks of consecration. I know Rank 1 is 46% and Rank 6 is 95%. Dont know the rest.

Cheers
1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) No
5) Yes
6) Yes
7), 8), 9), 10) I believe JoB uses melee hit and crit, but works like a spell otherwise, i.e. it can be fully or partially resisted.

11) According to WoWWiki:
Calculation:
sLvl = Level that the rank of this spell can first be learned
cLvl = Caster's Current Level
Downranking Multiplier = Min(1, (sLvL + 11) / cLvl)

So for ranks 5 and 6 the coef is the normal 95%, rank 4 is 0.83%, rank 3 is 0.69%, and rank 2 is 0.56%.
#1353SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Man, it's good to be back and see the community in full flow as usual

Avitus,

Regarding the weird behavoiur of JotC. I mentioned it briefly in my PM, but for the community I briefly mentioned the weird behaviour, though in far less detail a while ago.

The weird thing was that whilst the bonus damage from JotC was not getting any % modifier effects when used with Consecration, it was getting % modifiers applied to it for SoR. Some further investigation is definately needed here.

However for the time being, since SoR got the bonus damage, my model will assume that this applies to SoC. This is however an important issue as as you mentioned it is a loss of 89.5 spelldamage.

Rasputin, Anarkii, Habaka, Valeys

Thanks for the information on SoB/JoB

JoB seems to have bought about some differing opinion. I find it hard to imagine any damagin ability that doesnt suffer from either a resistance effect or a melee miss etc effect. For the time being i will treat it as resistable / partially resistable (as my general rule of thumb is its better to slightly underestimate the dps than overestimate it)

Again, with SoB, whilst the consensus seems that it can be missed dodged, parried but not partially resisted, the one example of the partial resist by Anarkii does bring doubt on this. For the time being i will make it partially resistable but not resistable.

I do ask, when you are raiding etc keep an eye on your combat log. And any screenshots, logs of these abilities you can get showining "S/JoB has been parried/blocked/resisted" etc etc would be great so we can get some conclusive evidence to on which to model.

Thanks though to all you (evil scum of the earth horde) paladins. Will do my upmost to get the latest version of the spreadsheet with SoB out today, with lots of extra goodies that have been suggested in my pms via Avitus and others.

Have a good day.
#1354SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Anarkii
Just to make sure I wasn't the only one seeing a partial resist on SoB, I just went through logs of SoB use on Reliquary of Souls. Grant from Blood Legion was the first name that came to my mind, so this is a random pick :

Grant's Seal of Blood crits Essence of Anger for 2210 Holy damage (1021 resisted)

Grant - WWS

I then went and checked my logs for other encounters. There were other encounters where it definitely has partial resists, so it's not limited to RoS.

Is it something to do with hit rating? My current values are 93 hit rating + precision. That's 2 hit rating below the cap. (I can get capped, but this was the best balance I found).
#1355SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
11) According to WoWWiki:
Calculation:
sLvl = Level that the rank of this spell can first be learned
cLvl = Caster's Current Level
Downranking Multiplier = Min(1, (sLvL + 11) / cLvl)

So for ranks 5 and 6 the coef is the normal 95%, rank 4 is 0.83%, rank 3 is 0.69%, and rank 2 is 0.56%.
Valerys,

Avitus did some testing on live which he pmed me. He found the coef to be:-

Consecration:

Rank 6: 64, 90 - 94%
Rank 5: 48, 74 - 94%
Rank 4: 35, 61 - 94%
Rank 3: 24, 45 - 76%
Rank 2: 15, 32 - 61%
Rank 1: 8, 21 - 47%

Thus i am a little uncertain of the wowwiki formula as it doesnt match.

I do however also need coefficients for the Ranks of Exorcism. For the time being i will use this formula as a close approximation, but if anyone happens to know / has time to test them out, please let me know.
#1356SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
bellator
*NEW* Paldin DPS Model - Big Changes

Hey Guys,

Just to let you know I have uploaded the latest version of the paladin DPS model at it's new home at filefront. It can be found:-

[Replaced with version 28. See post 1363]

There are a number of big and small changes:-

Big Changes

1) SoB is now fully catered for. At the top of the character screen is a drop down box which you can select SoB/SoC from. Selecting SoB will change the skills in the skill overview section. The Graph at the bottom of the page and the "Strength Equivalency Points" calculation will both be based on SoB, and the item analysis page will run using SoB. (NOTE: If you run an item analysis with SoC, then switch to SoB you have to re-run the item analysis. It does not automatically get updated.

As a couple of examples to see the differences., take a look at the graph output. You will notice that Haste is far more valuabel when run with SoB as opposed to SoC. Also on the item analysis, you will see that when run with SoB that Cataclysm's edge beats Torch of the Damned

2) The way Consecration & Exorcism is modelled has changed. Previously they were tacked on as an extra being utilised by the 'spare mana' to give an extra dps boost. Now they have been integrated into the "Dps and Skill Overview" and their usage directly effects the "Time to OOM calculation".

If you look towards the bottom of the sheet you can see a section "Consecration / Exorcism Usage". Here you can change the Rank of the spells used (or turn it off). The dps time till OOM by default assume they are cast on cooldown, however there is also the option to override the cooldown and enter your own CD for these abilities.

As a result you can now play around with the different levels of the spells on a CD of your choosing and see how it effects your dps and time till OOM and adjust them to best bit your gear playstyle.

Small Changes

Added Furious Gizmatic Goggles
Added Mana Spring Totem and Mana Tide Totem
Added Dark / Demonic Rune
Added Drums of War & Drums of Battle
Added the Draenei trails Heroic Prescence and Inspirin Presence.


Anyway, enjoy the new model, and please tell me if there are bugs / errors that occur as there has been a lot of changes and little time to fully test everything.

Last edited by bellator : 01/07/08 at 11:49 AM.
#1357SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shalymar
Paladin DPS Model v27

I downloaded the new Paldin dps sheet this morning. When I run the Individual Item Upgrade Analysis, the application stops working when it reaches the first trinket. Is anyone else seeing this error?

Last edited by Shalymar : 01/07/08 at 10:25 AM.
#1358SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
Paladin DPS Model v27

I downloaded the new Paldin dps sheet this morning. When I run the Individual Item Upgrade Analysis, the application stops working when it reaches the first trinket. Is anyone else seeing this error?
Shalymar, is the dropdown box set to "All" when you ran it. As not been able to replicate this bug
#1359SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kris
One more bug: When I set Exorcism usage to OFF, it doesn't calc dps for consecration too.
#1360SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saltycracker
Re: Belators New Sheet

Tytyty for putting out a new version! A couple changes I made which I made that some people may be interested in:

Added Shapeshifter's Signet: If you have way too much hit this ring is a cheap way to get some expertise
Added Sundered Chrysoprase: I have one in my Twinblade and its a good gem if you are already using a Shifting Tanzanite in some of your gear

Cheers!
#1361SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) No
5) Yes
6) Yes
7), 8), 9), 10) I believe JoB uses melee hit and crit, but works like a spell otherwise, i.e. it can be fully or partially resisted.
4 is wrong, Sob can be partially resisted.

7) yes
8) yes
9) no
10) yes
#1362SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Rasputin
If this is any help, here is my Recount of the night for SoB and JoB:

SoB:


JoB:


Additionally, here is our WWS of that night(please don't mind the terrible performance). I'm not overly familiar with WWS, but the dropdown menu does seem to show partial resists. So, for better than I:

Jayhanez WWS

Edit: As WWS treats SoB backlash identically with a hit, could backlashes on me which were partially absorbed by a PW:S or some other effect be skewing these results? In any case I'll try to watch my results and combat log more carefully next week.

Last edited by Rasputin : 01/07/08 at 11:00 AM. Reason: Additional question
#1363SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
*NEW* Paldin DPS Model - V28

Hey guys, yet another updated model V28 with more big changes.

Paladin_Dps_v28_2.3.2.xls - FileFront.com

Changes from v 28:-

1) The main change is that there has been quite a bit of restructuring.

a) The Graph Section is now on a seperate tab called "Graph". There is a button to clear the graph
b) The playstyle / mana section which was in effect just a combination of different talents, pots etc has been removed. Ther various bits that made up this section have been moved into their relative postions. For example, benedition and sanctified crusader can be found under talents, mana pots can be dound under pots etc.
c) The top top the page (highlighted yellow) contains all the output. It has the dps section per skill, a mana overview section, a "Strength Equivalency Point" section and then the load/save feature.
d) Under the "Gear" section is a section called "Skill Overview" which was originally in the "playstyle/mana" section. This controls the abilities and how you use them
e) The talents/buffs/pots section has been split into 3 sections, one for each.

Whilst this may confuse you at first if you are used to the old layout, bear with it, as things are now more logically placed rather than scattershotted all over the place.

2) Shapeshifter's Signet has been added
3) Sundered Chryosphere has been added
4) The Exorcism bug has been fixed. It now no longer turns off consecration also
5) The "Item Calc" section is less prone to bugging. If you stilll mange to get it to bug, let me know

Any feedback on the new layout etc much appreciated.
Plus if anyone can tell me how to copy over an old file on Filefront so that I can keep the link the same would be appreciated
#1364SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Shalymar
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Hey guys, yet another updated model V28 with more big changes.

Paladin_Dps_v28_2.3.2.xls - FileFront.com

Changes from v 28:-

1) The main change is that there has been quite a bit of restructuring.

a) The Graph Section is now on a seperate tab called "Graph". There is a button to clear the graph
b) The playstyle / mana section which was in effect just a combination of different talents, pots etc has been removed. Ther various bits that made up this section have been moved into their relative postions. For example, benedition and sanctified crusader can be found under talents, mana pots can be dound under pots etc.
c) The top top the page (highlighted yellow) contains all the output. It has the dps section per skill, a mana overview section, a "Strength Equivalency Point" section and then the load/save feature.
d) Under the "Gear" section is a section called "Skill Overview" which was originally in the "playstyle/mana" section. This controls the abilities and how you use them
e) The talents/buffs/pots section has been split into 3 sections, one for each.

Whilst this may confuse you at first if you are used to the old layout, bear with it, as things are now more logically placed rather than scattershotted all over the place.

2) Shapeshifter's Signet has been added
3) Sundered Chryosphere has been added
4) The Exorcism bug has been fixed. It now no longer turns off consecration also
5) The "Item Calc" section is less prone to bugging. If you stilll mange to get it to bug, let me know

Any feedback on the new layout etc much appreciated.
Plus if anyone can tell me how to copy over an old file on Filefront so that I can keep the link the same would be appreciated
This latest version of the dps sheet fixed the problem I was having. Yes, I had the dropdown box set to "All" when I ran it.
#1365SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Agonar
Say Bellator, does your Spreadsheet work with OpenOffice? If not, are you planning to create one compatible with O.Office in the futur?

Thanks!
#1366SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Avitus
Wow, great work on the new version, I'm on my way out atm, but I'll definitely dig into it as soon as I'm back!

I can confirm from previous tests that JotC is bugged for Consecration as well as Exorcism and does indeed not gain from multipliers.

I'll be doing some more tests for SoR, JoR, SoC and JoC later to see if it's the same here too.

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Plus if anyone can tell me how to copy over an old file on Filefront so that I can keep the link the same would be appreciated
jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

Last edited by Avitus : 01/07/08 at 1:18 PM.
#1367SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bellator
New Feature Requires Testing for Paladin Model

Hi Guys,

I'm testing a new feature which i may try and incorporate into later versions and would like those of you familiar with the sheet to test it out. The file can be found:-

jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

It is Called Version 29 Beta. (If you are not testing the new feature, its best to stick to version 28)

It is exactly the same as version 28, but had one extra sheet tab called "Insert Item". From here you can select a type of item to add, enter all the relevant details for the item (there are a couple of comments explaining things). Then click add item and it should be placed in the item database and be accessible from the character tab drop down menus.

What do you think. Is it worth pursuing?

---------------------------

Shalymer, glad to hear the bugs gone

Agonar, unfortunately my knowledge about open office and how to make an excel file with macros etc compatible with it is next to none. So unfortunately I dont have any short version of making and open office version sorry

Avitus, thanks for the info on jotc, and filefront
#1368SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kerri
Ohhh nice!

Good job getting the SoB option in there

Only thing I noticed was Libram of Divine Judgement is a upgrade with a sob build... yet its a Soc libram... nothing major though
#1369SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Carpathia
Hi bellator, nice to read you again

A small thing about the SoB Time till OOM : in my opinion the self damage and the resulting mana through spritual attunement should be added as mana gained with SoB.

The formula would be like this for the spiritual attunement part:

Mana gained per second = SoB DPS * 0.01 + JoB DPS * 0.033


there is also a bug with cons : JoW is not included at its mana cost - for example Cons Rank1 costs 15mp/s in the sheet, regardless if JoW is checked or not.
I also think Exorcism can trigger JoW, but I didn't test it yet.

Last edited by Carpathia : 01/07/08 at 8:17 PM.
#1370SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kerri
I'm pretty sure Exorcism can trigger JoW.
#1371SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kris
Bellator, about the beta. Just entered all my items, went to item calc and when it went through everything there came a "Type Mismatch" error. All items were calced, the current weapon is set to ---User Added----.
#1372SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
bellator
Originally Posted by Kerri View Post
Ohhh nice!

Good job getting the SoB option in there

Only thing I noticed was Libram of Divine Judgement is a upgrade with a sob build... yet its a Soc libram... nothing major though
For the time being just ignore this libram when using SoB. In v29, this will be fixed and Libram of Divine Judgement won't give any benefit in a SoB build.

Originally Posted by Carpathia View Post
Hi bellator, nice to read you again

A small thing about the SoB Time till OOM : in my opinion the self damage and the resulting mana through spritual attunement should be added as mana gained with SoB.

The formula would be like this for the spiritual attunement part:

Mana gained per second = SoB DPS * 0.01 + JoB DPS * 0.033
Hi Carpathia, I will include this as an option to turn on/off in v 29

Originally Posted by Carpathia View Post
there is also a bug with cons : JoW is not included at its mana cost - for example Cons Rank1 costs 15mp/s in the sheet, regardless if JoW is checked or not.
I also think Exorcism can trigger JoW, but I didn't test it yet.
Note that the "cost" of a skill in the "skills overview" section at the top of the character sheet is the base cost of the ability. It does not show reduction of cost from benedition / JoW etc here. However JoW is still been counted. This is shown in the "Judement of Wisdom" Line in the "Buffs / Debuffs" Section under Mp5. This is showing the mana gained from Jow through using all the abilities that can trigger it.

However, Exorcism and Consecration currently do not proc JoW in the spreadsheet. They will in v29

Last edited by bellator : 01/08/08 at 3:52 AM.
#1373SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Deac
is there any way to lock hit rating? I mean that if your hit caped, items with + hit is less dps but the spread sheet still gives the dps increase.

would really help when trying to see if haste items are usefull, because atm they are all worse for me.
#1374SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Deac View Post
is there any way to lock hit rating? I mean that if your hit caped, items with + hit is less dps but the spread sheet still gives the dps increase.

would really help when trying to see if haste items are usefull, because atm they are all worse for me.
Deac, just to clarify, are you saying that when hit capped, if you selected another item that has +hit on it, you want the hit on the item to be taken into account in the dps value as if the hit was beneficial even though there will not be a gain based on this extra hit?

If this is the case, unfortunately there is no way to do this. All +hit is doing is reducing the change to miss statistic (which all dps calculations are driven from). Once miss reaches 0% it is impossible to get it go go lower, and the only way for extra +hit to have an effect would be to increase the miss % which would scew all the data.

What exactly is it you want to find out from the model? Maybe there is another way around it that i can help with.
#1375SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kris
What I think he means is: He thinks he's hit capped and the spreadsheet says he isn't, therefore giving high dps on +hit items.
#1376SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Gormal
I did a quick glance through possible drops while trying to determine our best possible set of gear. Appropriately enchanted, this is what I came up with, but I feel like I've made a mistake somewhere so I'd like to be corrected where I've strayed.

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Swiftsteel Shoulders]
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece]
[Furious Shackles]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Dreadboots of the Legion]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Cataclysm's Edge]

A lot of this depends on having 10str gems and it assumes that the wearer is JC/enchanting for 24AP/12Crit gems and 4stat enchants.

Last edited by Gormal : 01/08/08 at 7:14 AM.
#1377SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Zurm
Just for more evidence in case people are confused, this is my guild's WWS... feel free to look at any of the raids in the past few weeks (I went ret about 5 weeks ago). Partial resists everywhere

WWS

And Gormal, I noticed some items that weren't ideal in your list, we should also keep in mind BE's and Ally pallies need to gear slightly differently.

S3 Glad chest --> T6 (basically the same, but you get more spell damage with otherwise identical gear).
Cloak of Fiends --> Cloak of Darkness (at least, it was for me playing around with bellator's spreadsheet)
I also can't really check this, but wasn't Torch best for alliance pallies?

Last edited by Zurm : 01/08/08 at 7:18 AM.
#1378SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Bellator, about the beta. Just entered all my items, went to item calc and when it went through everything there came a "Type Mismatch" error. All items were calced, the current weapon is set to ---User Added----.
Cheers for letting me know. Have looked into it and it appears that for some items (weapons for example), it was trying to treat the header Row "------User Added------" as a weapon for comparison instead of ignoring it, and thus confusing itself. This has been fixed for the next version which will be out shortly
#1379SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Gormal
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Just for more evidence in case people are confused, this is my guild's WWS... feel free to look at any of the raids in the past few weeks (I went ret about 5 weeks ago). Partial resists everywhere

WWS

And Gormal, I noticed some items that weren't ideal in your list, we should also keep in mind BE's and Ally pallies need to gear slightly differently.

S3 Glad chest --> T6 (basically the same, but you get more spell damage with otherwise identical gear).
Cloak of Fiends --> Cloak of Darkness (at least, it was for me playing around with bellator's spreadsheet)
I also can't really check this, but wasn't Torch best for alliance pallies?
Yeah I'm a selfish belfadin, so anything with haste will benefit me more than you poor alliance saps. That list also attempts tp factor in 94 hit rating from items, so don't just plug it in maxdps and pick the top items. That isn't directed at Zurm, its just a general warning. I'm really happy that this thread has gained some real direction of late.

Last edited by Gormal : 01/08/08 at 7:32 AM.
#1380SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Paladin DPS Model v29

Hey Guys,

Another new version for you (don't you wish Blizzard was this efficient :p)

It's Listed as version 29 here:-

jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com


Changes:-

1) There is a spreadsheet to Add your own items. Please note this feature is very much in Beta atm. It may end up being removed or expanded on. It's added cant be deleted, if you enter incorrect data it might bug, and theres no way of transferring items added to later versions. Use with care if you use it at all. I was half tempted to omit it from non beta versions of the sheet, but it will give you something to play with.

2) Libram of Divine Judgement no longer works with SoB

3) Consecration and Exorcism correctly proc JoW

4) Under "Buffs / Debuffs" There is a new one labelled "S/JoB Spiritual Attunement". This only works when SoB is chosen, and will provide mana based on the assumption that all self inflicted damage cause from S/JoB will be healed up from another player. If this assumption is incorrect for you (ie you feel most healing will be from JoL or from personal heals, leave it off.

5) Having JoC turned off, but the cooldown override on will no longer cause any bugs (but i doubt anyone noticed this)


I also plan to have a user guide of sorts available at some point in the not too distant future.
#1381SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Gormal, I would also look at trying to get 2 piec Tier 6 if you can, the 2 piece set bonus is just amazing
#1382SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Gormal, I would also look at trying to get 2 piec Tier 6 if you can, the 2 piece set bonus is just amazing
I don't have mana problems as things stand, though I can always drop an extra consecrate rank with the excess mana. Are other alliance paladins feeling strapped for mana ever?

Edit: Do we have an estimate on the average mp5 of T6 2set bonus?
#1383SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Deac
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
What I think he means is: He thinks he's hit capped and the spreadsheet says he isn't, therefore giving high dps on +hit items.
yeap
#1384SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
bellator
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
I don't have mana problems as things stand, though I can always drop an extra consecrate rank with the excess mana. Are other alliance paladins feeling strapped for mana ever?

Edit: Do we have an estimate on the average mp5 of T6 2set bonus?
I thought you were a belf. If you are alliance i would go for Torch over Cataclysm.

As for an estimate, it is very variable on weapons and gear etc, but for a tier 6 type paladin comes in at about 30ish mp5

Originally Posted by Deac View Post
yeap
Hmm, wonder why it's saying you are not hit capped. Can you list out your items and there contributions to getting you to the 9% cap?

Remember in terms of item analysis, if you have for example 9% hit exactly, and you analyse lets say you gloves compared to other gloves and your current gloves give you 1% hit, then other gloves with +hit on them will be counting towards the dps contribution as without your gloves you are not hit capped....if that makes sense

Edit: Deac, i looked at your character on the armory, and it says he only had 7.7% hit which is not hit capped. What other factors have you got to make yourself hit capped?

Last edited by bellator : 01/08/08 at 9:28 AM.
#1385SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Renaud
Can the Str Scroll buff be added to the buff list please? I love the new Belf included sheed Bellator!!
#1386SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Averie
Paladin
Crusader Strike (Retribution) now causes 110% of weapon damage and no longer gains any bonus from spell damage.

Righteous Fury: This spell will no longer cost twice the listed mana to cast.

Sanctified Judgements (Retribution) now returns 80% of the Seal's mana cost, increased from 50%.
The new changes with today's patch, 2.3.2.

It will be interesting to see how these affect optimal gear choices now.
#1387SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Alatandir
To Bellator (or anyone else who may know this info)

You have created a very nice spreadsheet encapsulating a lot of information on our mechanics. Thank you and my props to you! I have a question however. On the "Character" sheet of your Paladin?Dps?v28_2.3.2, I was trying to check the math on your attack dps calculations, but the cell references formulas and information that I couldn't get to display for me. Could you please post here what your formula is for calculating the Crusader Strike DPS? Thanks.
#1388SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rajawali
its really confusing with new patch

now ret pally its more like arms warior with mana? are spell dmg really not good in retri ? why tier use all spell dmg? if now ret pally more like arms warior,why we must use mana not blue rage or something? sorry its a newb questieon
#1389SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
Can the Str Scroll buff be added to the buff list please? I love the new Belf included sheed Bellator!!
Sure, this will be added in next version and thanks

Originally Posted by Averie View Post
The new changes with today's patch, 2.3.2.

It will be interesting to see how these affect optimal gear choices now.
Just fyi, the Last couple of iterations of the model have been based on 2.3.2

Originally Posted by Alatandir View Post
You have created a very nice spreadsheet encapsulating a lot of information on our mechanics. Thank you and my props to you! I have a question however. On the "Character" sheet of your Paladin?Dps?v28_2.3.2, I was trying to check the math on your attack dps calculations, but the cell references formulas and information that I couldn't get to display for me. Could you please post here what your formula is for calculating the Crusader Strike DPS? Thanks.
It gets quite complicated, so i'll try to split it down into parts if thats ok.

It first calculates the base hit:-

=[(Weapon Speed * Weapon Damage) + (Buffed AP / 14)*3.3 + 18(if Libram of Righteous Power equipped)] * 110% *105%(if vengeful glatiators gauntlets are equipped) * (100% + 2% per point in 2H weapon specialisation)

Then it works factors in crit and avoidance we'll call Modified base hit

= (Base hit * Crit Modifier - Base hit * Avoidance)

Here, Avoidance is a % such as 5.6% is hit is capped and attacking from behind to count only dodge
Also, Crit Modifier is a % so if we have 30% crit, the crit modifier would be 310%

Then all the buffs are factored in to get the Average Hit

= Modified Base Hit * Sanctity Aura(102%) * Crusade(103%) * Averaged Avenging Wrathe (103.3%) * Venegeance (115%) * Ferocious Inspiration (103%) * (100% - Boss Dmg Mitigation)

The Average Hit is then divided by the cooldown (6seconds) to get the dps.

Hope that made sense
#1390SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shalymar
Originally Posted by Rajawali View Post
now ret pally its more like arms warior with mana? are spell dmg really not good in retri ? why tier use all spell dmg? if now ret pally more like arms warior,why we must use mana not blue rage or something? sorry its a newb questieon
I never understood why our tier ret sets use spell damage and healing instead of something like attack power, crit, and hit, like the dps warriors gear. Maybe they will change this as well. We still need mana because we can heal and have spells that user mana unlike a dps warrior.
#1391SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rajawali
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
I never understood why our tier ret sets use spell damage and healing instead of something like attack power, crit, and hit, like the dps warriors gear. Maybe they will change this as well. We still need mana because we can heal and have spells that user mana unlike a dps warrior.
yeah i know ,i myself as prot paladin use speel dmg for threat and dps, but retri paladin? why spell damage not add more damage? subs for lack of AP, if blizz and now crusader strike its more like white dmg from warior hehehh
#1392SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kerri
Could you also add enchants for rings... +4 stats helps a tad . I'd also like to see how it compares to the +2 weapon damage.
#1393SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Aramul
Originally Posted by Kerri View Post
Could you also add enchants for rings... +4 stats helps a tad . I'd also like to see how it compares to the +2 weapon damage.
+4 stats is straight up better than +2 damage. The strength alone adds more damage per swing than +2 damage, before considering the other stats.

4 strength * 1.1(BoK) * 1.1(DS) = 9.6 ap
9.6 ap / 14 = .6857 dps
.6857 dps * 3.5 speed = 2.4 damage per swing
#1394SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Avitus
Spelldamage/Mana:

Do (mainly alliance) paladins use Consecration into their rotations?

Remember with enough mana back/spelldamage it's a really powerfull tool.

I currently use rank 6 consecration 100% uptime and full t6 and it gives me ~+150 sustained DPS.
#1395SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Anhedrin
Hi, I am fairly new to the ret paladin. I was wondering if someone could answer a quick ret dps question.
I am looking into a semi hybrid dps build. I want this build to allow me be to be a semi effect healer as well as good dps.
I have noticed while spec’ing out of the prot tree to forgo precision and trying to cap out my hit at about 140 ish; I would have to focus more on +hit.
I think in order for this to work I would have to loose out on a bunch of str and crit. As well my talent points would be spread a little thin to gain some healing advantage.
My question is, how large of a reduction of dps do you think would result in specing and gearing this way? Would this nerf me pretty bad or would this be viable for some decent pew pew.

Incase you want a little bit more information about my paladin:
The build I was considering would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (point left into vindication just incase the extra procs of wisdom is true)
Unfortunately I logged off in my healing gear but I have most of the Badge gear and am working on my arena head, breast plate, Weapon to replace my current ret epics.
#1396SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Kerri View Post
Could you also add enchants for rings... +4 stats helps a tad . I'd also like to see how it compares to the +2 weapon damage.
Ring enchants have been added and will be in next version. On first glance at the model, as aramul says, stats is showing as superior to striking.

@ Anhedrin,

In terms of your build, all your missing that most pure ret pallies would take is 4 points in beneditcion and 3 in precision. So basically your mana regen will be down a little, and countering the precision loss with gear will have a small effect on str / crit. However when it comes to end games, chances are that you will eventually find yourself hit capped without focusing primarily on it, so long term this won't be as much an issue

Bottom line, you'll notice a slight decrease in dps, but it's not a lot as your talent build is 90% ret.
#1397SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2noth
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Spelldamage/Mana:

Do (mainly alliance) paladins use Consecration into their rotations?

Remember with enough mana back/spelldamage it's a really powerfull tool.

I currently use rank 6 consecration 100% uptime and full t6 and it gives me ~+150 sustained DPS.
How are you keeping your mana up doing this? I'm certainly not t6 geared, but I have mana issues consecrating now and again, let alone constantly. Is there a trick I've missed maybe?
#1398SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Raika
Sorry if this is a stupid question Bellator, but I didn't see the answer anywhere/missed it. What kind of assumptions are made on the spreadsheet as far as the mob you are hitting? I'm just curious, as the output is certainly higher than the dps I actually do with correct gems/enchants/buffs/gear factored in the spreadsheet. I believe I set the correct values in each field :o
#1399SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2fingoldin
So, I never saw any conclusive result on the vindication proc'ing JoW. With 2.3.2 live now, anyone have any early reports on either double procs or side by side comparisons between with and without vindication?

Also, one note which I didn't see mentioned yet for BE paladins, I noticed (and this changed recently, just noticed it when I got back from the holidays) that judgement of blood doesn't seem to proc Dark Moon Card: Crusader's spell damage anymore... of course, with using SoB, JoB, and CS, there really isn't anything other than consecrate, holy wrath, and exorcism which uses spell damage for us anymore.
#1400SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Raika
Originally Posted by fingoldin View Post
So, I never saw any conclusive result on the vindication proc'ing JoW. With 2.3.2 live now, anyone have any early reports on either double procs or side by side comparisons between with and without vindication?

Also, one note which I didn't see mentioned yet for BE paladins, I noticed (and this changed recently, just noticed it when I got back from the holidays) that judgement of blood doesn't seem to proc Dark Moon Card: Crusader's spell damage anymore... of course, with using SoB, JoB, and CS, there really isn't anything other than consecrate, holy wrath, and exorcism which uses spell damage for us anymore.
As i understand it, Judgement of Blood has a spell damage coefficient, but is not a spell.
Just tested it, and the Judgement registers as a melee attack with Crusade.
Also, it is certainly still effected by the damage, just tested it to make sure - didn't face the mob, right clicked vengeance between judgements, and it was pretty clear that Amani Punisher (Spell damage mace - I forget how to link items here :o) was increasing the damage.

If I had more money to toy around with specs, I test vindication, but it's most likely a yes - I've heard it procs Crusade's spell damage component, so it will *likely* proc JoW.
#1401SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Anhedrin View Post
Hi, I am fairly new to the ret paladin. I was wondering if someone could answer a quick ret dps question.
I am looking into a semi hybrid dps build. I want this build to allow me be to be a semi effect healer as well as good dps.
The spec you provided has all the necessities for ret DPS I'd say, the main penalty is simply that not having precision will require you to replace some AP/crit on your gear with 47 extra hit rating.

Simplified if you're going to add it through gems, 47 hit rating is equivalent to 47 str added through gem sockets. 47 str = 113.74 AP with kings and div. str. (or 125.114 with unleashed rage on top if you have an enh shamman in your party). Also a loss of 3% spellhit, though that's not too major. If you want a rough estimate, it's like having everyone around you flasked while you're not.

I'd say it really depends on where you will raid. If it's heavy end raiding then I'd say you should specialize, if it's just pvp/low end instances then you should be fine (especially since you don't need 9% hit there in any case).

About the healing part, hmmm I personally would not heal with that spec, at most for soloing, group pvp, never for raiding.



Originally Posted by noth View Post
How are you keeping your mana up doing this? I'm certainly not t6 geared, but I have mana issues consecrating now and again, let alone constantly. Is there a trick I've missed maybe?
Complete 100% consecration uptime only works in many but not all fights.

They can be broken down into:

1. Fights where you take lots of damage and receive tons of mana through Spiritual Attunement
2. Fights where you spend a lot, or some time not DPSing and get breaks to regen.
3. Very short fights

Fights where you should be able to keep 100% consecration uptime:
BT:
Naj'entus (Spiritual Attunenemt)
Supremus (Many breaks for melee)
Shade of Akama (Very short "boss fight")
Teron (Spiritual Attunenemt)
Reliquary of Souls (Spiritual Attunenemt + Short Phases with 100% mana back after)

MH:
Rage Winterchill (Short fight, moderate Spiritual Attunement)
Anetheron (Short fight, moderate Spiritual Attunement)
Archimonde (Occasional breaks, moderate Spritiual Attunement, need to make sure 1 holy paladin always sticks JoW back after melee gets bursted)



Fights where only moderate consecration is possible:
BT:
Bloodboil (Aggro sensitive anyway, long fight where you sometimes take no damage at all, only consecrate/go all out during "Insignificance" debuff)
Mother Shahraz (Gimped gear, mana drain, long fight)
Council (Very long fight)
Illidan(Very long fight, high consecration uptime possible due to many breaks, but not 100%)

MH:
Kaz'rogal (Mana drain, shittiest fight for us :S)
Azgalor (Silence! Though lots of mana due to moderate Spiritual Attunement and occasional breaks)

As you see, essentially most of these fights are long endurance fights anyway and not really dps races.

Unfortunately we haven't been in SSC/TK for over 3 months, so I don't really remember how much I could keep consecration up there and I'd rather not post assumptions/guesses.


Mana mechanics that help (sorted in order of importance):
-JoW: This is the no.1 source of mana for us (even more than potions). You should always make sure it's applied by one of your paladins (you apply JotC) and re-applied if it should drop. Get a mod to monitor it (Demon from wowace) and get your holy paladins to get it too. Nag if it drops. Do not DPS without it. (Estimated on Spreadsheet 156.46mp5 for me, depends on your weaponspeed)

-Spamming super mana pots (or injectors) is a must, every cooldown.
For very short fights like Akama there's a trick where you can use a Fel mana potion at the very start so you can squeeze in a 2nd mana potion before the fight ends, though personally I've stopped doing that (dislike the debuff).
In addition I use an Alchemist's Stone as one of my trinkets providing +40% mana from potions, though I'm currently weighing out if I'll still use it after the Sanctified Judgement buff. (140mp5 for me, 100 mp5 without Alchemist's Stone)

-Mana Spring Totem: As a rule of thumb, never DPS without Windfury. Since you already should have a Shaman in your group, make sure he sticks down a Mana Spring Totem. (That's 50mp5 from enhancement/elemental Shammies, or 62.5mp5 from improved Mana Spring from restos.)

-Blessing of Wisdom: If you have 4+ paladins, you should always get this (after BoS/BoK/BoM). (Improved it's 49.2mp5)

-Dark/Demonic Runes: A luxury, not really to be spammed unless you can afford grinding for it (or it's a new kill), but worth having as a backup for emergencies when you think you're going low. Refunds 900-1500 mana on a seperate CD and does 600-1000 damage to you (which in return give you 60-100 mana through SA when healed up). "If" spammed, it would give you an additional 50mp5.

(-Shadowpriest: I personally have never had one in my group while ret since windfury is the priority and you won't have a shadowpriest in the melee group breaking your raid synergy, but should you get one for some weird reason, a shadowpriest doing ~1200 DPS would roughly return 300mp5 to you! I highly doubt that's ever an option though.)


Gear that helps:

-At least for alliance paladins, I've always been a promoter of tier gear vs full out warrior gear. Servers/Armory are down atm, so off the top of my head I think the pieces of my pve gear that have int on them are 5x T6, Boneweave Girdle, Alchemist's Stone, plus Chest, Bracers, Rings enchanted with +Stats. According to wowhead that's a total of +186 int.

Which is a 3070 mana advantage over someone wearing all out warrior gear with 0 int. This isn't worth awfully much in long fights (where mostly regen counts rather than base mana pool), but in shorter fights it's a godsend.

-T6 two set bonus: Don't leave home without it. I really suggest this to anyone seriously considering pve ret and is currently in Hyjal/BT, it's really worth it. (Estimated 30mp5 on spreadsheet) If only I could say the same for the worthless 4 set bonus...

-Mp5 from gear: Can't really see any mp5 gear worth using besides T6 (or T4) pants providing 9mp5. I guess this is an unfortunate limitation of stat distribution/item value while disregarding class mechanics.

-Alchemist's Stone: Yay or Nay, I've yet to come to a conclusion, but it's an extra 40mp5 while spamming pots and it gives some crit/AP/int.




I'm sure most of this is known, but I thought I'd underline some things which are easily ignored, like just how good/important JoW is for us to function optimally and how big of a damage boost consecration can be if you can maintain it.

Last edited by Avitus : 01/08/08 at 10:54 PM.
#1402SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Prinsesa
Has anyone done testing on the new 80% Sanctified Judgement and how it relates to Benediction?

I'd like to know if Sanctified Judgement returns the pre- or post-Benediction mana cost of the Seal. That is:

Seal of Blood base mana cost: 210
Seal of Blood 5/5 Benediction mana cost: 178.5

If SJ returns 80% of the pre-Benediction cost, which is 168, then SoB has a net cost of 10.5 mana (spent 178.5, got 168 back)
If SJ returns 80% of the post-Benediction cost, which is 142.8, then SoB has a net cost of 35.7 mana (spent 178.5, got 142.8 back)
If you don't have Benediction at all, then SoB has a net cost of 42 mana (spent 210, got 168 back)
#1403SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Fiola
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Has anyone done testing on the new 80% Sanctified Judgement and how it relates to Benediction?

I'd like to know if Sanctified Judgement returns the pre- or post-Benediction mana cost of the Seal. That is:

Seal of Blood base mana cost: 210
Seal of Blood 5/5 Benediction mana cost: 178.5

If SJ returns 80% of the pre-Benediction cost, which is 168, then SoB has a net cost of 10.5 mana (spent 178.5, got 168 back)
If SJ returns 80% of the post-Benediction cost, which is 142.8, then SoB has a net cost of 35.7 mana (spent 178.5, got 142.8 back)
If you don't have Benediction at all, then SoB has a net cost of 42 mana (spent 210, got 168 back)
With the 50% SJ, it returned post-benediction cost.

Checking in Shattrah just now, that has not changed.

SoR - 221 mana, returned 177 mana (80%)
SotC - 178 mana, returned 143 mana (80%)

If you look hard, I think there was a post reporting PTR testing 10~ pages back.
#1404SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
If SJ returns 80% of the post-Benediction cost, which is 142.8, then SoB has a net cost of 35.7 mana (spent 178.5, got 142.8 back)
If you don't have Benediction at all, then SoB has a net cost of 42 mana (spent 210, got 168 back)
This is how it works.

So you could drop Benediction for a small mana usage increase to pickup imp Might.
#1405SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Avitus
Unfortunately Sanctified Judgement currently works POST benediction cost, so shockingly enough having Benediction reduces the effectiveness of Sanctified Judgement (though you still end up with a net increase by using both).

So unless they also changed how Sanctified Judgement works with this latest buff, I doubt it has changed in 2.3.2.

Should be easy to check when the servers go up again.

Edit: Beaten to it!
#1406SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
grayrest
Originally Posted by Anhedrin View Post
I have noticed while spec’ing out of the prot tree to forgo precision and trying to cap out my hit at about 140 ish; I would have to focus more on +hit.

The build I was considering would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I am also a fairly new ret paladin (and paladin in general, I jumped over from mage just before 2.3 when I saw that Blizz would nerf my tree to oblivion). My guild is just getting into t5 content due to lack of people and a strict recruiting policy, so my experience is Kara and the ZA bear boss.

As for dps tradeoffs, you need 142 hit to be capped and the precision talent provides you with the equivalent of 48 +hit. You obviously have to trade off something to pick up the +hit and for my gear options, the tradeoff stat is crit rating. If you could perfectly trade off hit rating for crit rating, you'd gain 2.17% crit by taking the talent. While the tradeoff isn't trivial, doing crit-> hit isn't off the wall because Blizz tends to create items that make this trade. A particularly good example of this is [Bloodthirster's Wargreaves] versus [Greaves of the Bloodwarder]. In practice, you're probably going to lose slightly less crit and a bit of AP.

As a healer, I see myself primarily as the stabilizing healer. I can't consistently spam HL (more or less every talent in Holy after the 13 I take is about making HL better), so I spam FoL on the tank to soften the spikes while the fully talented healers handle the big heals. Along the same lines, I also take the job of landing the first heal on the tank as the fight starts because I have the lowest threat* of any healer by a fair margin.

* I have not thoroughly tested this so I'm trusting that Fanaticism does what it says and affects healing as well as damage.

As for your build, I would shift your talent points around to this. This build is a fairly pure FoL spammer. Illumination doesn't do that much for FoL spam, much less partial illumination. My preference is to gear for mp5 and gem primarily with Royal Nightseye.

One question I have is whether Sanctified Seals affects healing spells. I assume it does and my FoL crits track my holy crit rate fairly closely, but I haven't watched my spell crit paper doll sheet when adding those talent points.

Last edited by grayrest : 01/09/08 at 1:35 AM.
#1407SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Svetozar
DPS spreadsheet: item calc.

First of all, Thank you Bellator for the awesome job you are doing here with the speadsheet. You are my hero.

I've been playing with the Item Calc. worksheet and the calculation for me stops on cloack (Vengeance Wrap currently equipped) with error message (Run-time error '9' Subscript out of range)

I am a casual PVE player (Heroics, Karazhan mostly; heading into ZA and Gruul, SSK), so I thought it would be very handy to have an option of choosing the level of loot a player has access to (like maxdps.com has) in the Item calc section.

Thanks again for the good work. Keep it coming
#1408SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by grayrest View Post
One question I have is whether Sanctified Seals affects healing spells. I assume it does and my FoL crits track my holy crit rate fairly closely, but I haven't watched my spell crit paper doll sheet when adding those talent points.
Sanctified Seals does increase all your spell crit ratings by 3%, so yes it will apply to your healing spells.
#1409SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Valerys
Bellator, can you add Arcane Torrent for the blood elves? It can potentially return 483 mana every 2 minutes (assuming a boss where you can use Mana Tap), that's about 20 mp5.
#1410SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Diraphise
A toggle for the human expertise racial would be great.
#1411SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Seekur
In regards to damage rotation, I prefer to judge before crusader strike with Libram of Avengement. Why would you not take advantage of the extra crit caused by judging, i.e. beginning the fight with CS, then judge. Also from what I've noticed so far with 1/2 Imp. Judgement the timing works out well by judging first.

Anything wrong with judging first as opposed to CS first?

Also there is a lot of talk about not judging SotC. Are you talking about regular mobs? Bosses? Isn't that one of the reasons to be in the raid? 3% crit to the raid? I know my answer for this, just wondering what people are refering to when they say 'they never judge SotC' now with the new CS. Yes I get it that CS no longer takes advantage of spell dmg from gear, but 3% crit is 3% crit.

Last edited by Seekur : 01/09/08 at 11:05 AM.
#1412SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Seekur View Post
In regards to damage rotation, I prefer to judge before crusader strike with Libram of Avengement. Why would you not take advantage of the extra crit caused by judging, i.e. beginning the fight with CS, then judge. Also from what I've noticed so far with 1/2 Imp. Judgement the timing works out well by judging first.

Anything wrong with judging first as opposed to CS first?

Also there is a lot of talk about not judging SotC. Are you talking about regular mobs? Bosses? Isn't that one of the reasons to be in the raid? 3% crit to the raid? I know my answer for this, just wondering what people are refering to when they say 'they never judge SotC' now with the new CS. Yes I get it that CS no longer takes advantage of spell dmg gained from JotC, but 3% crit is 3% crit.
I haven't checked whether this is still true since I was prot most of the night last night, but at least before 2.3.2, the act of refreshing judgements through melee maintained the "Justice" buff, allowing me to prioritize CS as the more damaging attack.
#1413SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Is anyone having problems with castsequence post patch? Right now my macro looks like:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command(rank 5)

It sometimes gets hung up and I have to judge manually, whereafter if acts like normal. I know they changed the way the castsequence works in the patch but I cannot figgure out what they did.
#1414SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shalymar
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Is anyone having problems with castsequence post patch? Right now my macro looks like:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command(rank 5)

It sometimes gets hung up and I have to judge manually, whereafter if acts like normal. I know they changed the way the castsequence works in the patch but I cannot figgure out what they did.
They add a new symbol "!" to the front of some of these abilities to keep them from turning off and on when using the /castsequence macro. Try putting that on each ability to see if it fixes the problem.
#1415SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Merple
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Is anyone having problems with castsequence post patch? Right now my macro looks like:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command(rank 5)

It sometimes gets hung up and I have to judge manually, whereafter if acts like normal. I know they changed the way the castsequence works in the patch but I cannot figgure out what they did.

I'm currently using the following macro:

/cast Judgement
/cast [equipped: shield] Seal of Righteousness; Seal of Blood

which essentially means that whether I'm DPSing or tanking, my keybindings don't change.

The problem is if you spam the button, you reseal a bunch of times unnecessarily, wasting mana.

Is there a way to work this into a castsequence macro to prevent this?
#1416SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
I'm currently using the following macro:

/cast Judgement
/cast [equipped: shield] Seal of Righteousness; Seal of Blood

which essentially means that whether I'm DPSing or tanking, my keybindings don't change.

The problem is if you spam the button, you reseal a bunch of times unnecessarily, wasting mana.

Is there a way to work this into a castsequence macro to prevent this?
So if I replace Blood with Command in this macro, it'll seal SoR when I've got a shield equipped and SoComm at all other times? If this works as I think it does, you just saved me a little bit in remapping/rearranging keys when I spec prot...
#1417SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
So if I replace Blood with Command in this macro, it'll seal SoR when I've got a shield equipped and SoComm at all other times? If this works as I think it does, you just saved me a little bit in remapping/rearranging keys when I spec prot...
Same for me.

Now if only there was a way to additionally make this one macro use SoComm when I have, say, my pvp trinket equipped.




Is there?
#1418SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Merple
From what I understand about macroing, you can't make a conditional based on a specific item, just item type, so no, you can't do it with the PvP trinket. However yes, the macro I provided seals Righteousness when you're wearing a shield and Blood (Command) when you don't (which means you've probably got a 2-hander on)

Apparently I've managed to help people while posing my own question. You still have to carefully watch your judgement cooldown because if you try to judge too early (or if you mash judgement in PvP like I do), you reseal a bunch of times without actually judging (until the cooldown passes) and waste a bunch of mana.

I'll see if you can use conditionals in /castsequence and get back to you.

ed: Castsequence is functionally different than I want, so it's not looking like it's possible. Oh well. Enjoy the macro.

ed2: What you _could_ do is, if you used a wardrobe switcher like ItemRack, make your PVE sets not wear a shirt or tabard, and your PVP set wear a shirt/tabbard. Because you can do it by item type, something along the lines of:

/cast Judgement
/cast [equipped: shield] Seal of Righteousness; [equipped: shirt] Seal of Command; Seal of Blood

That _should_ work. Somewhat of a cascading If statement.

Besides, real men tank with no shirt on, but we all know AV can get nippley

Last edited by Merple : 01/09/08 at 1:55 PM.
#1419SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
From what I understand about macroing, you can't make a conditional based on a specific item, just item type, so no, you can't do it with the PvP trinket. However yes, the macro I provided seals Righteousness when you're wearing a shield and Blood (Command) when you don't (which means you've probably got a 2-hander on)

Apparently I've managed to help people while posing my own question. You still have to carefully watch your judgement cooldown because if you try to judge too early (or if you mash judgement in PvP like I do), you reseal a bunch of times without actually judging (until the cooldown passes) and waste a bunch of mana.

I'll see if you can use conditionals in /castsequence and get back to you.

ed: Castsequence is functionally different than I want, so it's not looking like it's possible. Oh well. Enjoy the macro.

ed2: What you _could_ do is, if you used a wardrobe switcher like ItemRack, make your PVE sets not wear a shirt or tabard, and your PVP set wear a shirt/tabbard. Because you can do it by item type, something along the lines of:

/cast Judgement
/cast [equipped: shield] Seal of Righteousness; [equipped: shirt] Seal of Command; Seal of Blood

That _should_ work. Somewhat of a cascading If statement.

Besides, real men tank with no shirt on, but we all know AV can get nippley
I've been using the following macro to judge/reseal until now:
#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command

Whenever I respec to prot, I need to go in and change "Command" to "Righteousness" on the 3rd line of the macro. Don't really care for castsequence macro's much, and I'm very aware of the danger of continuously resealing by pounding the hotkey for this macro. I'm definitely going to put in that shield condition tonight! Thanks Merple
#1420SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ysabelle
Question, since there is a 3second cd on wf, would it be detrimental to my dps to constantly push my normal autoswings past 3.0 often? I'm talking about during non lust/haste pot phases.

At the moment, I'm swinging my Cataclysms Edge for 3.35 with my seething fury belt and my 1 haste ring. Ill have the haste bracers soon, bringing it pretty close to the 3.0 mark. The thing is though, I'm next for dst and with that I'll easily be swinging faster then 3 seconds often. My gm is telling me its going to start hurting my dps to be swinging this fast and losing wf procs.
#1421SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2grayrest
Originally Posted by Ysabelle View Post
Question, since there is a 3second cd on wf, would it be detrimental to my dps to constantly push my normal autoswings past 3.0 often? I'm talking about during non lust/haste pot phases.
The 3 second cooldown does not apply to you. It applies only to the weapon imbue (which the shaman uses) and not to totem (which everybody else uses). There is no cooldown on windfury from the totem.
#1422SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
From what I understand about macroing, you can't make a conditional based on a specific item, just item type, so no, you can't do it with the PvP trinket. However yes, the macro I provided seals Righteousness when you're wearing a shield and Blood (Command) when you don't (which means you've probably got a 2-hander on)

Apparently I've managed to help people while posing my own question. You still have to carefully watch your judgement cooldown because if you try to judge too early (or if you mash judgement in PvP like I do), you reseal a bunch of times without actually judging (until the cooldown passes) and waste a bunch of mana.

I'll see if you can use conditionals in /castsequence and get back to you.

ed: Castsequence is functionally different than I want, so it's not looking like it's possible. Oh well. Enjoy the macro.

ed2: What you _could_ do is, if you used a wardrobe switcher like ItemRack, make your PVE sets not wear a shirt or tabard, and your PVP set wear a shirt/tabbard. Because you can do it by item type, something along the lines of:

/cast Judgement
/cast [equipped: shield] Seal of Righteousness; [equipped: shirt] Seal of Command; Seal of Blood

That _should_ work. Somewhat of a cascading If statement.

Besides, real men tank with no shirt on, but we all know AV can get nippley
I love you.
#1423SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Merple
Let me know if that actually works. I'm at work and can't test it.
#1424SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Let me know if that actually works. I'm at work and can't test it.
I'll use it tonight and get back to you, I'm at work for a little while longer myself.
#1425SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
I'll use it tonight and get back to you, I'm at work for a little while longer myself.
I have just tested this, and while I didn't have a shirt on me, I can happily report that [equipped: tabard] works perfectly, so I can only imagine that the shirt will work as well.
#1426SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Can anyone confirm/deny that the damage portion of [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] is affected by percentage modifiers such as Sanctity Aura and Vengeance?
#1427SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Aramul
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Can anyone confirm/deny that the damage portion of [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] is affected by percentage modifiers such as Sanctity Aura and Vengeance?
Confirmed. Was ticking for as much as 163 in Terrokar with full Vengeance + Sanctity. With no buffs, ticks for 123/124 against elementals (with Crusade).
#1428SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Raika View Post
Sorry if this is a stupid question Bellator, but I didn't see the answer anywhere/missed it. What kind of assumptions are made on the spreadsheet as far as the mob you are hitting? I'm just curious, as the output is certainly higher than the dps I actually do with correct gems/enchants/buffs/gear factored in the spreadsheet. I believe I set the correct values in each field :o
Raika, sorry for the delayed reply.

In terms of boss assumptions, the spreadsheet assumes the boss is a lvl73 mob with 7700 armour (the highests of all boss mobs in BT). It assumes you are attacking from behind. It takes into account misses, dodges, glancing blows, partial resists and full resists. It also assumes you are continuosly attacking with zero lag and a perfect rotation, and assumes you use all CD's such as heroism, trinkets etc etc on cooldown

The reasons why you will be seeing a higher than expected DPS is one or more of the following:-

1) It does not factor in lag

2) There are very few if any boss fights where the boss simply stands still and lets you continuously hit him without interruption. Take SSC as an example. Hydross moves and dps needs to slow each transistion plus he can iceblock you. Lurker does his geyser and vanishes. Leo whirlwinds, Morogrim water tombs you, Karathress requires movement between bosses, and vajsh requires movement and has adds in phase 2. If there was a test dummy boss in Shattrah you could hit without any effects stopping you then these levels of dps would probably be reached, but until then it's essential to realise this is optimal dps not the dps you will see in every fight.

3) It's worthwhile checking the "Skill Usage" section to check you are using these spells in your rotation at the CD set

Hope that helps
#1429SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Svetozar View Post
First of all, Thank you Bellator for the awesome job you are doing here with the speadsheet. You are my hero.

I've been playing with the Item Calc. worksheet and the calculation for me stops on cloack (Vengeance Wrap currently equipped) with error message (Run-time error '9' Subscript out of range)

I am a casual PVE player (Heroics, Karazhan mostly; heading into ZA and Gruul, SSK), so I thought it would be very handy to have an option of choosing the level of loot a player has access to (like maxdps.com has) in the Item calc section.

Thanks again for the good work. Keep it coming
Did you also have the "Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph" listed? I think this problem you have mentioned has been resolved and will be in the next version.

Regarding limiting the level of loot this is a great idea i do want in, but it could prove a bugger to code. Hopefully i will get to it at some point, but dont expect it in the next version of the sheet.
#1430SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2p4yz
Rogue VS Ret Pally

Could someone explain why a raid leader would take a rogue over a Ret paladin with similar gear (2k AP/30% crit/Hit cap).
Talking BT here.

Rogue would, with similar gear, only edge out between 300-400 more DPS, if in the same melee group. Is this completely wrong?

How much MORE dps would a rogue need over a Ret Pally to sacrifice the extra blessing/+3% crit to raid/judgements /2% damage to party ETC. Very interested (and subbed) ret pally.
#1431SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sarkan-ZdC
Well, just look at your Raid DPS. You do give your're Raid 3% Crit.

Anyhow, will be hard to calculate. Ticks/DoTs do not Crit, some Classes Crit for 150% (Shadowpriests), some 175%, some 200, some 230%. Have fun looking up a WWS report for your guild and making the calculation.

Then 2% Damge for your Group. The Man-Reg (Average 122 MP/5 per Player!!) from Post No. 1 and 1 extra blessing.

Depends very much on Raid DPS and Raid Composition.

I personally would always bring the Ret. Someone takes the gear that is dissed if he is not there and I love synergies.
#1432SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2p4yz
So even after all the extra's a Ret pally brings, there is still competition on bringing an extra rogue over a Retribution paladin?

How could that even be a factor? That's like saying bringing a rogue over an Enhancement shaman is still competitive isn't it?

Sorry, it just seems like no one has run the numbers, so they just let raid leaders do what they please.
#1433SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
As said previously, DPS contribution is extremely case by case... depends on raid composition, party make-ups and what you're fighting. There is no real numbers to shown that will apply to EVERY case.

And even if raiders are comparatively geared, it doesn't mean they're on the same level playing field. I've met some goddamn awful raiders and I wonder how they ever got their way through karazhan or even heroics for that matter without some sort of warning bell going off.

Maybe a raid leader prefers one player over another, maybe the other raider comes with full consumables, well-read, repair money, on time and is very easy going in to what his role is in the raid. I've also known some rogues to blow great big freaking holes out of the other dps in the meters. We have a rogue that consistently tops TK meters.. and this is TK where you spend on fight twiddling your thumbs and another competing with heavy aoe dps.

I know from experience that gear means nothing other than a fancy dress code compared to some of the aforementioned points.

If you're looking for a post that will end all arguments with your raid leader, you sure as hell won't find it here.

Although if your raid leader likes a good read.... then there is 50+ pages to flick through... =]
#1434SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Well, it looks like 2.4 wont be hitting PTR this week, but to console ourselves, here's version 30 of the spreadsheet with lots of goodies:-

jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

Changes

1) Item Analysis has now had an upgrade. When running the analysis you can choose to include / ignore items from certain locations. These are currently broken down into:-
-Pre Raid
-Karazhan / Gruul / Mag
-Zul Aman
-SSC / TK
-MH / BT
-PvP
-Badge Loot
-Craftables
-User Added (items you have added)

Limiting which items to look at speeds up the analysis

2) Ring Enchants (Stats, Striking) have been added in the gear selection area

3) Scroll of Strength V has been added under buffs

4) Improved Divine Spirit has been added (Note: Since this is the only buff that relies on the paladins spirit, and the buffed spirit of a paladin does not vary that much from pre raid to tier 6 raiding, i have decided not to model in spirit into the current model as it is too time consuming and not worth the effort. Instead on the line where this buff is present, you can enter your buffed spirit and it will add the respective spell damage. This wont change when you change gear etc, but since any variations are very small, the inaccuracy this would bring into the dps calculations is extremely minor. If spirit ever becomes a more useful stat for paladins i will of course model this in

5) Arcan Torrent Has been added for the belfs

6) Bug Fix. Previously correctly gemmed weapons were not getting the socket bonus. They are now

7) Bug Fix. An error would occur in item analysis when certain items were equipped. This is fixed

8) Bug Fix. An error would occur when adding items to the database if the database window was hidden. This is fixed.

I plan to add in more racials in future versions. Plus if someone can provide the correct stats for a naked, talentless level 70 human/blood elf, then i will add these in.

Also, please note there have been lots of new features added in the last few versions, so I imagine there are still a number of bugs lurking around. Let me know if you find them

Happy DPSing
#1435SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Jacey
First of all, Thanks for the spreadsheet Bellator =)

a bug with the new V30: When i go to item compare and click Analyse items, im getting the following error:
Error 1004: method Range of object _Global failed.

Is that something on my end i can fix or a general bug?
#1436SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Antiock
I just want to echo every one else's appreciation for the spreadsheet, Bellator. It's very informative, and kinda fun to play around with.

Would it be possible to add [Thundering Skyfire Diamond] to the spreadsheet?
#1437SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Jacey View Post
First of all, Thanks for the spreadsheet Bellator =)

a bug with the new V30: When i go to item compare and click Analyse items, im getting the following error:
Error 1004: method Range of object _Global failed.

Is that something on my end i can fix or a general bug?
Hi, can you give some extra information on this please. Does this bug always occcur if did it occur when you changed certain gear or added your own items etc. Also, what version of Excel are you using? I've been able to get this bug myself.



Antiock, will try and get that gem in next version
#1438SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tianan
Maybe Im doing something wrong but when I tried to add the helm "Horseman's Helm" I wasn't able to select Blue as one of the socket colors. This was with the Paladin_Dps_v30_2.3.2 sheet. I see Red, yellow, meta, and Green?
#1439SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Jacey
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Hi, can you give some extra information on this please. Does this bug always occcur if did it occur when you changed certain gear or added your own items etc. Also, what version of Excel are you using? I've been able to get this bug myself.
Occurs both if i change stuff, or if i just start up the spreadsheet and go straight into item calc and click the button. Using Excel XP from the Microsoft Office XP Small Business Pack (running it on Vista though, might be a problem?).

When i click the Problem solving button, i get this http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8193/errorrl8.jpg

Hope it helps a bit, im quite a PC noob myself so dont expect too much =(
#1440SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Jacey View Post
Occurs both if i change stuff, or if i just start up the spreadsheet and go straight into item calc and click the button. Using Excel XP from the Microsoft Office XP Small Business Pack (running it on Vista though, might be a problem?).

When i click the Problem solving button, i get this http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8193/errorrl8.jpg

Hope it helps a bit, im quite a PC noob myself so dont expect too much =(
hmm, odd. What version of Excel are you using. 2000/3/7? Click on "help"-->About Microsoft Excel to find out.

Do all the other functions in the spreadsheet work?
#1441SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Tianan View Post
Maybe Im doing something wrong but when I tried to add the helm "Horseman's Helm" I wasn't able to select Blue as one of the socket colors. This was with the Paladin_Dps_v30_2.3.2 sheet. I see Red, yellow, meta, and Green?
Yeah...i....er....kinda invented the new "Green" gem socket with this version /whistles

I've e-mailed blizzard to ask them if they would change all gear in game to use green instead of blue sockets. However if they fail to accomodate my simple request, will change the spreadsheet for the next version
#1442SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Jacey
Sais here.. Microsoft Excel 2002 (10.2614.2625)
hmm.
#1443SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Fun with Retribution

When would you say, gear-wise, that retribution starts to come into its own for a young paladin?

After two years of playing and raiding my warlock, I took a paladin to 70, and am enjoying the pally very much (over the past month at 70), but I have severe self-inflicted trauma around what spec to stick with long term and possibly swap into our raids with if I switch mains.

What I like about retribution is that I can compete in PVP and all kinds of PVE without spec changes, really, and beating on mobs with large weapons is a nice shift from ranged spellcasting.

However, in the few Kara runs I've taken my pally to, with a smattering of some 7 or so epics (one of them Thunder - not quite to the point of upgrading to Deep Thunder yet), putting out some 400 dps is a bit underwhelming, and I'm wondering about the feel of the class as I gain gear, and when it starts to feel stronger.

Further, unless I am taking a lot of incidental damage, mana is a huge issue, when wearing warrior dps gear. I have read of retribution pallies chaining haste potions (I am horde), but even chaining mana potions I have mana issues.

I pop CS every time it is up and judge SoB every time it is up (waiting only if it would interfere with CS).

My spec, for Kara, was 5/8/44 with the first 5 retribution points in Imp Might (none in Benediction after reading that the mana savings are very minimal due to its interaction with Sanctified Judgement).

If anyone else has ever had a huge conflict of their own creation around whether to be full prot, prot/holy hybrid, full holy, or retribution, please have mercy and give some advice and words of wisdom around getting the most ouf of retrubiton and what it takes to start feeling more of the love retribution seems to promise
#1444SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Aelwynsc
Ok guys I've been reading here now for several months and have progressed QUITE a bit thanks to the theorycrafting expertise of all of you, but I'm struggling right now to get my RET pally higher than roughly 430 DPS. I've got a link here to my WOWARMORY page, and here's a link to the latest stats for a raid into karazhan with my guild. My rotation of hits is SotC, JotC, SoB, JoB, CS, going back to JoB and tossing in Avenging Wrath whenever it's not on cooldown and Exorcism when applicable. I'm open to any help that can be given here as based on what I have read so far, I should be doing alot better in DPS than I am at this point.

Ah and almost forgot that the guild I'm in is a casual one that happens to raid, vs the hardcore variety so we've not been to the higher level BT and Hyjal instances.

Thanks guys!

Last edited by Aelwynsc : 01/10/08 at 2:08 PM.
#1445SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
Originally Posted by Aelwynsc View Post
Ok guys I've been reading here now for several months and have progressed QUITE a bit thanks to the theorycrafting expertise of all of you, but I'm struggling right now to get my RET pally higher than roughly 430 DPS. I've got a link here to my WOWARMORY page, and here's a link to the latest stats for a raid into karazhan with my guild. My rotation of hits is SotC, JotC, SoB, JoB, CS, going back to JoB and tossing in Avenging Wrath whenever it's not on cooldown and Exorcism when applicable. I'm open to any help that can be given here as based on what I have read so far, I should be doing alot better in DPS than I am at this point.
You still aren't loaded into the Armory, so I'll have to comment on your cycle only. A quick gander at your WWS report tells me that your cycle isn't very tight at all. For example, on your Prince Malchezaar attempt, your first Judgement cycle was 12 seconds long, your second was 14 seconds long, and your third was another 14 seconds long. You're also not resealing until a second or more afterwards. The next time you log on, create a macro that looks like this:

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

This is your new Judgement hotkey. Whenever you use Judgement, it will immediately reapply Seal of Blood, so you'll never have to delay for a swing timer, or worry about DPS loss from Seal uptime again.

As for your actual cycle:
  1. Seal of Command (or Blood) must always be active while in melee range.
  2. Crusader Strike must always be prioritized over Judgement.
  3. (2) must not infringe upon (1).

If you're executing a cycle that follows those rules, you end up with a rotation that looks exactly like the first timeline here:



What this means is that you won't want to use your Judgement macro within 1.5 seconds of Crusader Strike coming off cooldown, or you'll run into DPS loss. However, if you have only one point in Improved Judgement, that should never happen as it's a perfect 9 second cycle.
#1446SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gellen
Originally Posted by Jacey View Post
First of all, Thanks for the spreadsheet Bellator =)

a bug with the new V30: When i go to item compare and click Analyse items, im getting the following error:
Error 1004: method Range of object _Global failed.

Is that something on my end i can fix or a general bug?
It should happen on show/hide details, strength gems and correct gems as well.
It's fixable on your end(at least with Office 2007). You need to find the lotus compatibility settings and check the "Transition formula entry" for all tabs(Character and Item Calc at least)

In Office 2007 they are under excel options/advanced at the bottom.

I have no clue as to why you need it but maybe bellator can enlighten us.
#1447SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Gellen View Post
It should happen on show/hide details, strength gems and correct gems as well.
It's fixable on your end(at least with Office 2007). You need to find the lotus compatibility settings and check the "Transition formula entry" for all tabs(Character and Item Calc at least)

In Office 2007 they are under excel options/advanced at the bottom.

I have no clue as to why you need it but maybe bellator can enlighten us.
Lotus Compatibility Setting! I have never used Lotus in my life.

Whenever programming macro's, since i dont really have a in depth knowledge of the codeing i generally run the record macro first to see which processes it's calling to do certain things then write the code based on this. So why it would be calling lotus functions i have no idea. Damn Excel.
#1448SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
c0rnflake
When turning on Insane Strength to compare it to Haste potions, it seems to be adding 15 strength instead of 120.

Last edited by c0rnflake : 01/10/08 at 6:06 PM. Reason: I fail at linking items
#1449SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
Originally Posted by p4yz View Post
Could someone explain why a raid leader would take a rogue over a Ret paladin with similar gear (2k AP/30% crit/Hit cap).
Talking BT here.

Rogue would, with similar gear, only edge out between 300-400 more DPS, if in the same melee group. Is this completely wrong?

How much MORE dps would a rogue need over a Ret Pally to sacrifice the extra blessing/+3% crit to raid/judgements /2% damage to party ETC. Very interested (and subbed) ret pally.
I actually did extensive research into this, and a lot of math. There was a post earlier in this thread (page was in the mid-30's i think) that showed some of the math. The rogues in my guild are VERY good... consistently over 1900 dps on pure burn fights, so I had a tough time convincing them to kick a rogue out of the enh sham group. At around equal item levels, looking PURELY at dps, its better to put a rogue in a non-buff group and move a ret pally in there, IF they want to bring a ret pally. If you run with only 2 holy pallies, i'd say the 3rd blessing and keeping 3 judgements up puts you way past a rogue in terms of utility, even if you did 500 dps.

Why kick a rogue out of the dps group for a ret pally? The math is fairly simple, but what follows is for BLOOD ELFS ONLY. I'd say rogues get a equal or drop more from UR cause the extra AP affects both their OH and MH, even if they have slightly lower ap on average. For us, more AP affects the white hit AND SoB dmg. However, the added benefit of WF (since one of our specials procs off WF and thats not the case for a rogue, also only a rogue's MH procs wf) gives us a big advantage, as well as the extra benefit we get from SoE (a 2.2 multiplier before buffs). Plus, a rogue can always put a poison on their MH if they don't get a dps group, we'd have to put on a weightstone which is far less useful. From my experience, i gain anywhere from 400-600 dps being in the melee dps group, I haven't seen rogues get more than 250-300. The fact that you are buffing raid dps (even ifyou are switching a lower dps person into the group) should be enough reason. PLUS, if you have a stacked dps group, the ret pally adds 2% dmg to the group, where as a rogue would add nothing.

The real problem comes if your guild rolls with more than 2 rogues. My guild typically puts 2 rogues, me, a dps warrior, and an enhancement shaman in the dps group. I didn't replace a rogue, but rather the feral druid, since I got more from joining than the feral druid did, but provide an approximately equal buff (5% crit is around as good a 2% dmg to a group like i mentioned). If your guild runs with 3 or more, then yea, I'd say there may not be room for you as ret until you start bringing one less rogue

Sorry bout the wall of text, just wanted to share what I've learned
#1450SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Jacey
Originally Posted by Gellen View Post
It should happen on show/hide details, strength gems and correct gems as well.
It's fixable on your end(at least with Office 2007). You need to find the lotus compatibility settings and check the "Transition formula entry" for all tabs(Character and Item Calc at least)

In Office 2007 they are under excel options/advanced at the bottom.

I have no clue as to why you need it but maybe bellator can enlighten us.
Thanks alot, this "Transition formula entry" worked like a charm, its all fixed now

Just one more question for Bellator - Does the spreadsheet correctly note down the fact that haste also increases the amount of SoB procs you get, as it is every hit and the proc chance doesnt go down the faster your hitting?

Edit: Seeing as i'm quite the noob, it works now, but can someone please explain how the Item Calc works? Managed to input my items and calculate it, but im getting some weird numbers. The numbers range from 0.something to about 28, is this number the increase in dps you get from the concerning item? I'm quite worried with some of the items popping up =P (just for my information, how much +% hit does the spreadsheet assume you need?)

Last edited by Jacey : 01/10/08 at 6:45 PM.
#1451SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by c0rnflake View Post
When turning on Insane Strength to compare it to Haste potions, it seems to be adding 15 strength instead of 120.
This is normalized for the potion cooldown. 120 Str for 15 secs over a 120sec pot CD
#1452SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2sag_ich_nicht
While killing Leotheras today I noticed something I hadn't noticed before, I was just checking my mana to see if I should use a mana potion and got a glimpse of my 5 second rule ticker. The Crusader Strike cooldown is 6 seconds, so you have one second of non-casting mana regeneration.

My knowledge of the 5 second rule is limited but if this has an effect, has it been accounted for in the spreadsheet?
#1453SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Fiola
Originally Posted by sag_ich_nicht View Post
While killing Leotheras today I noticed something I hadn't noticed before, I was just checking my mana to see if I should use a mana potion and got a glimpse of my 5 second rule ticker. The Crusader Strike cooldown is 6 seconds, so you have one second of non-casting mana regeneration.

My knowledge of the 5 second rule is limited but if this has an effect, has it been accounted for in the spreadsheet?
The 5SR will not kick in if you're seal/judging every 8/9 seconds and CSing every 6 seconds for max DPS.



Might make for an interesting mana-regen cycle though - SoC R1 every 30 seconds + CS every 7 seconds? (~2 ticks of regen)

Or would SoC Max Rank + JoC every 8/9 seconds be better for DPM?
#1454SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Aelwynsc
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
You still aren't loaded into the Armory, so I'll have to comment on your cycle only.
I'd noticed that myself, but then when I clicked on the link within the guild listing to the right it seems to come up. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Seems WoWarmory is having issues of late.


Originally Posted by Theras View Post
A quick gander at your WWS report tells me that your cycle isn't very tight at all. For example, on your Prince Malchezaar attempt, your first Judgement cycle was 12 seconds long, your second was 14 seconds long, and your third was another 14 seconds long. You're also not resealing until a second or more afterwards. The next time you log on, create a macro that looks like this:

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

This is your new Judgement hotkey. Whenever you use Judgement, it will immediately reapply Seal of Blood, so you'll never have to delay for a swing timer, or worry about DPS loss from Seal uptime again.

As for your actual cycle:
  1. Seal of Command (or Blood) must always be active while in melee range.
  2. Crusader Strike must always be prioritized over Judgement.
  3. (2) must not infringe upon (1).

If you're executing a cycle that follows those rules, you end up with a rotation that looks exactly like the first timeline here:



What this means is that you won't want to use your Judgement macro within 1.5 seconds of Crusader Strike coming off cooldown, or you'll run into DPS loss. However, if you have only one point in Improved Judgement, that should never happen as it's a perfect 9 second cycle.
Definitely will work on that issue and try to get it tighter for sure. Gut feeling is that once I tighten up this, the gearing is gonna be my challenge but then can't get help with that until WoWarmory is working properly. Of course have to get with Bellator as well since his sheet doesn't have some of my gear in it like my Myrmidion's headdress......
#1455SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2sag_ich_nicht
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The 5SR will not kick in if you're seal/judging every 8/9 seconds and CSing every 6 seconds for max DPS.
Hmm... Okay, after further reading up I learned it is in 2 second pulses. Well, in that case I need to punch the author of X-Perl to make his 5SR ticker more like an energy ticker. And yes I agree, it might be worth a shot to try come up with a mana reg cycle using that, but the question is if it is worth the effort or would even net any gain.
#1456SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Jacey View Post
Just one more question for Bellator - Does the spreadsheet correctly note down the fact that haste also increases the amount of SoB procs you get, as it is every hit and the proc chance doesnt go down the faster your hitting?

Edit: Seeing as i'm quite the noob, it works now, but can someone please explain how the Item Calc works? Managed to input my items and calculate it, but im getting some weird numbers. The numbers range from 0.something to about 28, is this number the increase in dps you get from the concerning item? I'm quite worried with some of the items popping up =P (just for my information, how much +% hit does the spreadsheet assume you need?)
Haste does effect SoB in the sheet

Briefly, how item calc works. Lets say you've set up your gear and it's saying you have 1000dps. When you run Item calc, it will first look at your head gear. It goes through each helm item and works out the dps if you had each helm. It looks at Helm X and the dps drops to 990. It then looks at Helm Y and dps is 1010, so it lists Helm Y with 10 (dps increase next it it). It does that with all items. The enchants you set up will stay the same, but every socket of every item it compares is filled with +Str gems (to keep things even), as it's impossible to know exactly how you would socket it. Ideally it would socket each item based on the gemming combination which gives the highest dps, but the calculation time would be tooo big

The hit cap is 9% hit

Originally Posted by Aelwynsc View Post
Definitely will work on that issue and try to get it tighter for sure. Gut feeling is that once I tighten up this, the gearing is gonna be my challenge but then can't get help with that until WoWarmory is working properly. Of course have to get with Bellator as well since his sheet doesn't have some of my gear in it like my Myrmidion's headdress......
The spreadsheet's item database is aimed to have all Karazhan + epics in. It also has a selection of what I believe to be the best pre-raid blues. I'm sorry, it's nothing personal but i will not be adding Myrmidion's headset in as it could open the floodgate and I would end up spending half my time adding countless blues to fit everyone's needs.

However, this is why i am working on the insert item function to accomodate people's needs.
#1457SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by sag_ich_nicht View Post
Hmm... Okay, after further reading up I learned it is in 2 second pulses. Well, in that case I need to punch the author of X-Perl to make his 5SR ticker more like an energy ticker. And yes I agree, it might be worth a shot to try come up with a mana reg cycle using that, but the question is if it is worth the effort or would even net any gain.
I Need input on the mechanics of the 5SR. I know:-
a) You need to not use a mana spell for 5 seconds
b) it ticks every 2 seconds

What I need to know, if you cast crusader strike every 6 seconds do you:-
1) Get 1 tick 5 seconds after casting crusader strike
2) Get 0 ticks as you need 7 seconds (5+2) for the first tick to occur

If the answer is 2) then I will not program 5SR into the spreadsheet as the model assumes using CS on CD and i see no benefit in extending the CD of one of the most damagin abilites to save mana for other things. If you dont have the regen for casting CS every 6 seconds you have a problem

If the answer is 2, then i will program it so:-

A) If you have Judgement/Exorcism/Consecration turned off.
.....You will get 1 tick every 6 seconds

b) If you have Judgement turned on, but exo/cons off
.....You will get 1 tick every 18 seconds (based on the 9sec judgement CS on CD SoC 100% uptime which in my view is the best rotation and the one used in the sheet)

c) If you have either Exorcism or consecration turned on
....You dont get any ticks (in reality you might get the occassional tick, but there's so many potential ways of using these abilites it would get too confusing)
#1458SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2grayrest
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I Need input on the mechanics of the 5SR. I know:-
a) You need to not use a mana spell for 5 seconds
b) it ticks every 2 seconds

What I need to know, if you cast crusader strike every 6 seconds do you:-
1) Get 1 tick 5 seconds after casting crusader strike
2) Get 0 ticks as you need 7 seconds (5+2) for the first tick to occur
Neither. The 5sr begins every time you expend mana (this only really impacts mage clearcasting and channeled spells). Mana ticks, like energy ticks, occur at a fixed interval. If you're in the 5sr when the tick occurs, you get no mana. If you're outside the 5sr, you get mana. If you CS every 6 seconds exactly (no latency) and your CS doesn't coincide exactly with a tick, you will get 1 tick every 5th CS.

In all honesty, the return is such a tiny amount (~20 mana every 30 seconds) that I don't think it'd be worth modeling.
#1459SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Jakome
Hi guys, my buddy got a bug up his ass and decided to go ret and we are currently on a mission to get him into the raid. I've tried to read the thread but I started struggling at pg 20. I glanced over the last few and didn't see anything on what I need.

The new thing they have for us now is some guild on are server "tested" and said that imp seal of crusader only works with party members and not for the whole raid. I have a hard time believing that because all other Judgments give the effect to the raid. Does it give the whole raid the buff and if it does is there a way to prove it to them?
#1460SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sorry
Hard to imagine since Judgements work for everybody, even for the opposite faction.
#1461SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Originally Posted by Jakome View Post
Hi guys, my buddy got a bug up his ass and decided to go ret and we are currently on a mission to get him into the raid. I've tried to read the thread but I started struggling at pg 20. I glanced over the last few and didn't see anything on what I need.

The new thing they have for us now is some guild on are server "tested" and said that imp seal of crusader only works with party members and not for the whole raid. I have a hard time believing that because all other Judgments give the effect to the raid. Does it give the whole raid the buff and if it does is there a way to prove it to them?
Yes improved seal of the crusader works for the whole raid. They are probably thinking of Sanctity Aura. It's hard to prove the crit increase for the raid, but for the spell damage:-

Make a raid with another paladin, but be in different groups. Find a mob. Get him to spam consecrations and watch the tick damage. After 10 seconds judge SoTC and he will see the tick damage increase even though he is in a different group.

If SotC is working for the holy damage then there is no reason it shouldnt for the crit.
#1462SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Iod
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
It's hard to prove the crit increase for the raid, but for the spell damage:-
Perusing my WWS logs, I have supporting evidence at least for it working for the whole Raid. My base Crit is 26%, with a Feral Druid that jumps to 31%. Over the course of an evening (and over 1000 shots fired) my average Crit rate is 33%. The only other thing present to affect crit? That's right, our Retribution Paladin.

Jakome, to be perfectly honest the people saying that have their heads up their asses. A good Ret Pally is quite valuable.
#1463SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
ulath7
SoB vs SoR

I'm sure this has been documented somewhere, but at what point does one want to use Seal of Blood, Seal of Command or Seal of Righteousness to do the most "white" DPS?

I've only started building a Ret set and last I calculated, can only get to around 1400 AP. I have Hammer of the Naru as a weapon.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by ulath7 : 01/11/08 at 2:14 PM.
#1464SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Adurith
I have a question that I'd really like to get an answer to:

My guild currently has BT on farm but I'm looking to optimize my damage on each boss (we run every 25 man each week). With that said, I have an Armor Penetration set that I use on bosses like Teron and then a normal Strength set for bosses like VR and Council. My question is this: Is there a list of bosses and the amount of armor they have somewhere? I've looked on Wikipedia and I've searched for it here on the elitistjerks forums but I can't find any answers.

Any help would be much appreciated.
#1465SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
Originally Posted by Adurith View Post
My question is this: Is there a list of bosses and the amount of armor they have somewhere? I've looked on Wikipedia and I've searched for it here on the elitistjerks forums but I can't find any answers.
http://elitistjerks.com/496799-post8.html
#1466SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Avitus
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Is anyone having problems with castsequence post patch? Right now my macro looks like:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command(rank 5)

It sometimes gets hung up and I have to judge manually, whereafter if acts like normal. I know they changed the way the castsequence works in the patch but I cannot figgure out what they did.
Has anyone found a solution to this?

I have the same problem and it's incredibly frustrating when it bugs up at a critical moment to say the least.

Currently my own castsequence macro looks like this:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=30/alt Seal of Command, Judgement

I've tried without the initial /startattack, I've tried by adding an exclamation mark infront of Judgement (though supposedly that's only for toggle able abilities?), but it still bugs up for no apparent reason every now and then.

I know as a last solution I could switch to a multi line /cast macro, but I've always preferred /castsequence since it restricts you from resealing accidentally when you already have a seal up.



Any help would be very much appreciated.


EDIT: Found a 9 page blue flagged threat at the official wow UI/macro forum:

WoW Forums -> /castsequence not cycling properly?

Seems like it's a known issue, I really hope it doesn't take until 2.4 to fix.

Last edited by Avitus : 01/11/08 at 6:56 PM.
#1467SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
While we are on the topic of macros...

I saw some people used /startattack in their macros. Does this turn auto-attack on if its not, but leave it on if it is? If this is the case, this is the command i've been searching for regarding a cs macro. I loose too much dps when switching targets to having to wait for cs or judge to come off CD for autoattack to turn back on.
#1468SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I saw some people used /startattack in their macros. Does this turn auto-attack on if its not, but leave it on if it is?
Yes.
#1469SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by ulath7 View Post
I'm sure this has been documented somewhere, but at what point does one want to use Seal of Blood, Seal of Command or Seal of Righteousness to do the most "white" DPS?

I've only started building a Ret set and last I calculated, can only get to around 1400 AP. I have Hammer of the Naru as a weapon.

Thanks in advance.
You'll -never- use SoR and as a Belf.. you'll only use SoC when the possibility of the SoB/JoB recoil will kill you is very high... and this is only on a very small amount of fights.. ie Prince of Kara.

Ive only just gotten to 2k in my gear unbuffed. It takes alot of gathering the right pieces, so unless you're doing a good job in 25mans or the arenas.. don't expect high stat numbers (altho the badge gear helps a great deal)
#1470SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
You'll -never- use SoR and as a Belf.. you'll only use SoC when the possibility of the SoB/JoB recoil will kill you is very high... and this is only on a very small amount of fights.. ie Prince of Kara.

Ive only just gotten to 2k in my gear unbuffed. It takes alot of gathering the right pieces, so unless you're doing a good job in 25mans or the arenas.. don't expect high stat numbers (altho the badge gear helps a great deal)
Does it? The badge gear didn't look terribly impressive to me as someone with a mix of Karazhan/pvp epics and heroic blues. A lot of points spent on ArP and +hit. I'm pretty sure if I pick up the three badge epics that would replace blues for me (already have the horseman's helm and the battleground bracers) I would be over the hit cap with Precision thrown in.

I'll have to read up on the value of ArP when present in small doses like those three pieces would give me.
#1471SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
Does it? The badge gear didn't look terribly impressive to me as someone with a mix of Karazhan/pvp epics and heroic blues. A lot of points spent on ArP and +hit. I'm pretty sure if I pick up the three badge epics that would replace blues for me (already have the horseman's helm and the battleground bracers) I would be over the hit cap with Precision thrown in.

I'll have to read up on the value of ArP when present in small doses like those three pieces would give me.
Well, if you're at the hit cap with good set pieces then fine. Currently, Im sporting the badge legs, I had the helm until I got the engineering headpiece. The main thing about the badge plate pieces, they have very healthy amounts of strength. The pants beat 10 levels of crap out of the the mech pants and the bracers are just huge (altho comparable with pvp bracers). I guess the hit on the higher item level gear allows you to use more obtainable epics to buff your strength/crit stats (like Adal's command/band of conquest etc).

When I started, I only had 1500 AP.. now I have nearly 2k unbuffed (1994 last check) thanks to enchants, str gems and some decent T5 upgrades. Looking to get the pants from solarian for a better trash/pvp set because who the frell needs more than 5% hit for trash. =]
#1472SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Secta
Does SoB still provide better DPS then SoC if you're equipped with Libram of Divine Judgement?

When I have a Shaman in my group providing WF, I go with SoB. However, when I don't have that luxury I'm using SoC beacuse my Libram seems to have a decent proc rating. I personally think I'm better off though with the Libram for Blood Furnace and just constantly using SoB.

Anyone have some confirmed numbers on this?
#1473SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Anarkii
Originally Posted by Secta View Post
Does SoB still provide better DPS then SoC if you're equipped with Libram of Divine Judgement?

When I have a Shaman in my group providing WF, I go with SoB. However, when I don't have that luxury I'm using SoC beacuse my Libram seems to have a decent proc rating. I personally think I'm better off though with the Libram for Blood Furnace and just constantly using SoB.

Anyone have some confirmed numbers on this?
Yes, SoB beats SoC with the LoDJ, by a comfortable margin. The only fights BElfs should consider using SoC is when they might kill themselves with SoB.
#1474SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Well, if you're at the hit cap with good set pieces then fine. Currently, Im sporting the badge legs, I had the helm until I got the engineering headpiece. The main thing about the badge plate pieces, they have very healthy amounts of strength. The pants beat 10 levels of crap out of the the mech pants and the bracers are just huge (altho comparable with pvp bracers). I guess the hit on the higher item level gear allows you to use more obtainable epics to buff your strength/crit stats (like Adal's command/band of conquest etc).

When I started, I only had 1500 AP.. now I have nearly 2k unbuffed (1994 last check) thanks to enchants, str gems and some decent T5 upgrades. Looking to get the pants from solarian for a better trash/pvp set because who the frell needs more than 5% hit for trash. =]
Good point. Its true that I'll be way over the hit cap if I magic up another 250 badges to buy all of the heroic plate gear, but I can at least make some favorable gear swaps as you mention (swap Ring of Ghoulish Delight for the Violet Signet, etc).
#1475SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Diraphise
More spreadsheet stuff:

-Ironstriders of Urgency have a listed socket bonus of +3 agi instead of +3 str.
-The 2/3/4 mp5 gems seem to add 8 hit and nothing else.

Could you perhaps also add Falling Star? It's the one stamina gem I do bother using, and I can't seem to give user-added gems a colour.

Last edited by Diraphise : 01/13/08 at 6:21 PM.
#1476SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
Good point. Its true that I'll be way over the hit cap if I magic up another 250 badges to buy all of the heroic plate gear, but I can at least make some favorable gear swaps as you mention (swap Ring of Ghoulish Delight for the Violet Signet, etc).
If you run the badge rewards through the spreadsheet or maxdps.com, you'll find that the leather pieces outstrip most of the plate rewards. Don't be afraid to grab mail/leather if its going to give you a bigger overall improvement.

[Master Assassin Wristwraps] beat out [Eternium Rage-shackles] for instance.
#1477SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Marxus
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
If you run the badge rewards through the spreadsheet or maxdps.com, you'll find that the leather pieces outstrip most of the plate rewards. Don't be afraid to grab mail/leather if its going to give you a bigger overall improvement.

[Master Assassin Wristwraps] beat out [Eternium Rage-shackles] for instance.
Mostly because the plate is geared more toward fury warriors.
#1478SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gory
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Has anyone found a solution to this?

I have the same problem and it's incredibly frustrating when it bugs up at a critical moment to say the least.

Currently my own castsequence macro looks like this:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=30/alt Seal of Command, Judgement

I've tried without the initial /startattack, I've tried by adding an exclamation mark infront of Judgement (though supposedly that's only for toggle able abilities?), but it still bugs up for no apparent reason every now and then.

I know as a last solution I could switch to a multi line /cast macro, but I've always preferred /castsequence since it restricts you from resealing accidentally when you already have a seal up.



Any help would be very much appreciated.


EDIT: Found a 9 page blue flagged threat at the official wow UI/macro forum:

WoW Forums -> /castsequence not cycling properly?

Seems like it's a known issue, I really hope it doesn't take until 2.4 to fix.
I have encountered the same problem with castsequence macros, which seemed to not reset due to the long reset time in them.

Therefore I use this on my pala (judgement talented at 8 seconds) :
#showtooltip judgement
/castsequence reset=7 judgement, seal of <ownage>

You can do reset=8 if you got judgement talented at 9 seconds, this never failed me so far.
#1479SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
If you run the badge rewards through the spreadsheet or maxdps.com, you'll find that the leather pieces outstrip most of the plate rewards. Don't be afraid to grab mail/leather if its going to give you a bigger overall improvement.

[Master Assassin Wristwraps] beat out [Eternium Rage-shackles] for instance.
Thanks for the tip. I hadn't considered it. I hate to lose the extra armor of plate pieces by going as low down the chain as leather, but for raiding it shouldn't matter much, and for PVP I'll pick up plenty of high armor PVP pieces over time as it is.

I have the battleground bracers, so my first priorities from the badge rewards are probably replacing my rare shattered hand legs and my rare shoulders. I'll have to check the leather on those Perhaps even the mail pieces, if they have any enhancement shaman oriented pieces in there.
#1480SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
If you run the badge rewards through the spreadsheet or maxdps.com.......
For itemization, given the current state of both MaxDPS and the spreadsheet, what do you find most accurate at the moment?

I was a little surprised to see some helms ranked higher than the horseman helm that are spending itemization points on +dmg, given the change to crusader strike, for instance (when I looked at maxdps.com).
#1481SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
For itemization, given the current state of both MaxDPS and the spreadsheet, what do you find most accurate at the moment?

I was a little surprised to see some helms ranked higher than the horseman helm that are spending itemization points on +dmg, given the change to crusader strike, for instance (when I looked at maxdps.com).
The spreadsheet is far more accurate since it's more detailed and specialized.

Just because an item has +dmg doesn't mean it's bad, +dmg is a cheap stat. The question is always "how much AP/crit are you giving up for how much +dmg?".
#1482SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The spreadsheet is far more accurate since it's more detailed and specialized.

Just because an item has +dmg doesn't mean it's bad, +dmg is a cheap stat. The question is always "how much AP/crit are you giving up for how much +dmg?".
+dmg only affects Judgement of Blood, with a .43 modifier, correct? Unless I am consecrating or using exorcism, I believe that is the only ability it impacts.

I will use the spreadsheet when I have more time, and thanks for the advice.
#1483SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
+dmg only affects Judgement of Blood, with a .43 modifier, correct? Unless I am consecrating or using exorcism, I believe that is the only ability it impacts.

I will use the spreadsheet when I have more time, and thanks for the advice.
Ah you're horde, hmmm in that case things change quiet a bit due to JoB. Still, I'd go with the spreadsheet.

Which helmet do you have (armory link?)?
#1484SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Ah you're horde, hmmm in that case things change quiet a bit due to JoB. Still, I'd go with the spreadsheet.

Which helmet do you have (armory link?)?
Myndle, my Pally

I have been workng on heroic badges lately, in between raiding my warlock, and plan to do at least the minimum 10 arena matches plus battlegrounds as well, to get there faster.

I'll upgrade to Deep Thunder within a couple of days now. With plenty of void crystals saved up from my main, I am planning on Mongoose, unless the spreadsheet shows Executioner as a clear winner (I also need to research between Mongoose and Executioner in PVP, as until such time as I am able to switch mains, Myndle will be mostly doing lower tier raids and PVP).

Question - can Crusader Strike proc weapon enchants?
#1485SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
I was a little surprised to see some helms ranked higher than the horseman helm...
The reason you're seeing that is because the Horseman's Helm doesn't have a Meta socket on it, which is an absolutely colossal DPS increase. Having a helmet with a meta socket is almost always preferable to having one without.
#1486SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
Myndle, my Pally

I have been workng on heroic badges lately, in between raiding my warlock, and plan to do at least the minimum 10 arena matches plus battlegrounds as well, to get there faster.

I'll upgrade to Deep Thunder within a couple of days now. With plenty of void crystals saved up from my main, I am planning on Mongoose, unless the spreadsheet shows Executioner as a clear winner (I also need to research between Mongoose and Executioner in PVP, as until such time as I am able to switch mains, Myndle will be mostly doing lower tier raids and PVP).

Question - can Crusader Strike proc weapon enchants?
Executioner is inferior in PvP, the debate is between Mongoose and Savagery. I just put mongoose on my S3 sword, and am not unhappy with the trade from static AP. I've been toying around with Battlemaster's Cruelty and while it makes my damage more unpredictable, it has really helped us in 5s to burst someone down.

Yes, mongoose can proc off of a CS.
#1487SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ragnor
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Executioner is inferior in PvP, the debate is between Mongoose and Savagery. I just put mongoose on my S3 sword, and am not unhappy with the trade from static AP. I've been toying around with Battlemaster's Cruelty and while it makes my damage more unpredictable, it has really helped us in 5s to burst someone down.

Yes, mongoose can proc off of a CS.
Whether you go choose Mongoose, Executioner or Savagery largely comes down to personal preference. There is no clearly superior miles ahead choice at all.
#1488SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Petru
I've been reading these forums on and off for a while, particularly this thread of late but have never had the need to actually post until now. Firstly, I'd like to thank the participants for providing an excellent source of information. Secondly, thanks to Bellator for providing such a brilliant utility.

Onto my reason for posting - I have a question specifically for Bellator and the Upgrade Analysis tab on the spreadsheet. I'm currently wearing the [Arrow-fall Chestguard], which I accept is far from the best available, so I ran the analysis to look at upgrades available. It lists [Lightbringer Breastplate] as being 9.86 DPS increase, yet curiously lists the [Justicar Breastplate] as being a 9.88 DPS increase. This has me confused somewhat, as the Lightbringer boasts 12 Strength, 0.27% crit, 6 +dmg and 1.33% hit over the Justicar while both have three sockets to play with.

Am I missing something obvious here or have I somehow managed to fubar your spreadsheet?
#1489SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
I agree that none of the enchants are vastly superior, but executioner comes off as just a little too inconsistent for my tastes with respect to PvP. Mongoose provides the same benefit regardless of who you're attacking, while executioner gains will swing depending on the armor of your target. The increased dodge from mongoose is also a nice bonus as I find that I'm often a melee target.

Sigurd drew up some quick numbers to compare mongoose to executioner:

Originally Posted by Sigurd
Well, in PvP, executioner proccing against high armor targets is almost worthless, while against a low armor target is good.
Just some rough stats, in my current PvP gear I've got 10,112 Armor and 48.92% mitigation. When Executioner procs, it'd drop me to 9,272 Armor, and 46.74% mitigation - a difference of 2.18%. That's okay i guess..

Compare that to a clothie, a Warlock with ~2522 Armor (19.28% Mitigation). When Exe. procs it'd bring him to 1682 Armor (13.80% Mitigation). So you get an increase of 5.48% damage against him. Sad to say, around 5.48% is the maximum you'll get in PvP from an Executioner proc, unless their's extra Armor Pen (Faerie Fire, Sunders, Expose). Priests and mages have a way to increase their armor beyond what you get from gear (Ice Armor, Inner Fire).

Your worst case scenario is either going to be bear form druid (~14,220 Armor 57.37% to 13,380 Armor 55.90%) 1.47% increase, or a Warrior/Paladin with a Shield on (~16,793 Armor 61.40% to 15,953 Armor 60.14%) 1.26%.

I personally wouldn't use Executioner in PvP over Mongoose.

As for Savagery vs. Mongoose, people highly underestimate the uptime for 'goose. It's higher than 1PPM - closer to 2, since White attacks, SoC, JoC, and CS all have a chance to proc it. Logically it's understandable to assume "this 70AP is always 70AP, and it's never nothing, so that's better than ~5% crit sometimes" but the reasoning is flawed. It boils down to, for lack of a more fitting analogy, visible versus invisible damage increases. Savagery might seem better than Mongoose if you spend time looking at your character sheet, but in practice I can assure you, you'll almost always get better results from using 'Goose.
#1490SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2noth
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Complete 100% consecration uptime only works in many but not all fights.

[... trimmed lots of awesome info for the quote ...]
I'm sure most of this is known, but I thought I'd underline some things which are easily ignored, like just how good/important JoW is for us to function optimally and how big of a damage boost consecration can be if you can maintain it.
I'm slow getting back (I was out sick from work )but thanks for the post!! We're currently slamming our heads against Kael which is a screwy fight, mana-wise, for me. Virtually no consumption right up till the weapons, then dump my mana pool in 1 fell swoop with consecrate, and start popping pots to keep goin' afterwards. I'm glad to hear that SA will be netting me some love in the future though!!
#1491SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mordekhuul
I'm now working to get my current gear into Bellator's spreadsheet.

I need to input the horseman's helm as a new item, but when I do, and I hit "show details", it doesn't show 3 rows under the helm, but only two.

After some playing around, i can see that this is because the item creation page doesn't have a "b" option. It has r, y, and g. I selected 'g' to see if it would function as blue, but that seems to lead to the above mentioned error.

When I put in r,r,r instead, to test it out, the created item displays all three rows with no issues.
#1492SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Valerys
Originally Posted by Petru View Post
Am I missing something obvious here or have I somehow managed to fubar your spreadsheet?
IMO it's better to manually test the different gear upgrades on the gear selection sheet. The analysis sheet stuffs Str gems into all your gear, which may not be the best choice for dps when considering some socket bonuses.
#1493SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by noth View Post
I'm slow getting back (I was out sick from work )but thanks for the post!! We're currently slamming our heads against Kael which is a screwy fight, mana-wise, for me. Virtually no consumption right up till the weapons, then dump my mana pool in 1 fell swoop with consecrate, and start popping pots to keep goin' afterwards. I'm glad to hear that SA will be netting me some love in the future though!!
Ah Kael fight, I used to have a special "cheat" for this fight, namely [Major Dreamless Sleep Potion]

Admittedly last time I was there was some time before we got threat reduction, I would go all out on Kael, then run away to aggro break for 12 secs (right as I was about to pull aggro) and pop a Dreamless Sleep Potion.

With Alchemist's Stone, it would give exactly 5040 mana (and HP) which is a ton.

For P2 -> P4 (reset damage meters after P1) I'd usually end up in the top 3.

Noteworthy tips:

-Don't bother much in P1, make sure you enter P2 with full mana and no potions on CD.
-P2 (weapons), wings, heroism, consecration spam on the weapons, jotc, go all out
-P2 -> P3: Pop super mana pots
-P4 -> Once you mash kael down, run out of his range and pop a dreamless sleep potion = almost full mana again if you had alchemist's stone

-Make sure there's no tremor totem when you use Dreamless Sleep and that Kael just used his AoE arcane explosion thing
-If you can, make sure one of the holy paladins healing MT can stick a JoW on Kael at the start of p4.


Though mana management should be much easier now and there's no threat probs anymore so take this with a pinch of salt, this is what I used to do however
#1494SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
IMO it's better to manually test the different gear upgrades on the gear selection sheet. The analysis sheet stuffs Str gems into all your gear, which may not be the best choice for dps when considering some socket bonuses.
One thing to note is that also screws up socket bonuses, most importantly things with hit. So manually adjust your hit rating to compensate before running item analysis.
#1495SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Kael'thas threat and mana conservation stuff...
If you loot the legendary axe, you'll still have threat problems as the weapon is just so insane. If you can loot the axe in P3, and pop that dreamless sleep between 3 and into 4, it will help you a lot. I'm a huge proponent of doing as much damage as you can as early as you can, but I've pulled aggro on Kael a few times thanks to huge crits and the axe proc when I push too hard. Any other fight in the game I have no aggro problems whatsoever even popping AW/trinkets within 10 seconds of the fight starting, but p4 Kael really hampers me.
#1496SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Well, looting the axe is a given and not really optional, don't think you'd be meleeing without it.

Still, according to my guild's calculations, I'd have to be pushing 2500 DPS with salv and 30% thread reduction from talents to pull aggro off our warrior MT in most average fights.

With legendary axe and all, you would need to be using all cooldowns, have a stacked group and pretty much the best gear in game if you want to hope to achieve that number (my best so far at teron was 1950 sustained DPS in a stacked group, 1750 in a normal group with just enh sham and war) and somehow I doubt it still.

What sorta TPS does your MT pump out?
#1497SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mearis
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

-Make sure there's no tremor totem when you use Dreamless Sleep and that Kael just used his AoE arcane explosion thing
What happens if he flame strikes where you are standing while using dreamless potion? That honestly seems really dumb.
#1498SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
What happens if he flame strikes where you are standing while using dreamless potion? That honestly seems really dumb.
You bubble? DPSing without any mana.. you'd might as well be dead =]

Alternatively, you could always get yourself swapped into a group with a resto shaman for mana totem (yes, I cant remember the talented versions name) or maybe steal a mages spot in the Spriests group for 30 secs or so =]

After going all out after phase 2, I usually chill for phase 3, judging wisdom on Telonicus and auto-attacking/mana pot to get my mana back up to full... I've also thought about BoSac'ing the tanks for that little extra health kick from SpiA

Of course, we're still having issues with 3->4 transition, so maybe I should be just emptying myself out throughout 2-3 regardless.
#1499SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
What happens if he flame strikes where you are standing while using dreamless potion? That honestly seems really dumb.
Bubble happens.

The only problem I've ever had with MDSP is other players being a little overzealous and cleansing the debuff off. Make sure to inform everyone beforehand.

EDIT: I'm updating the JoW list and I need one quick tidbit of info from you guys. Can SoC and SoB procs in turn proc JoW? Some of the people on the WoW forums are saying they can, which would result in a pretty sizable Mp5 increase, but I trust you guys more then them. Anyone have a combatlog or such that supports/refutes this?

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 01/15/08 at 10:37 AM.
#1500SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tekzor
Weapon Switching for Enchant Procs

A question I’ve had in my mind for a while has been what the positive and negative aspects of weapon switching to take advantage of multiple weapon enchants would be. I use a Torch of the Damned with mongoose currently, but I was playing around with a Soul Cleaver with executioner and noticed that I could get both procs up at the same time. [Using Soul Cleaver instead of my Torch in a raid situation would probably reduce any gains noticed from the enchant procs, but if I grabbed a second Torch and put executioner on it…] GCD from weapon switch may be an issue, but since I will have to manage that manually, it should be avoidable. Has anyone tried this out before and was there any appreciable difference?
#1501SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Tekzor View Post
A question I’ve had in my mind for a while has been what the positive and negative aspects of weapon switching to take advantage of multiple weapon enchants would be. I use a Torch of the Damned with mongoose currently, but I was playing around with a Soul Cleaver with executioner and noticed that I could get both procs up at the same time. [Using Soul Cleaver instead of my Torch in a raid situation would probably reduce any gains noticed from the enchant procs, but if I grabbed a second Torch and put executioner on it…] GCD from weapon switch may be an issue, but since I will have to manage that manually, it should be avoidable. Has anyone tried this out before and was there any appreciable difference?
I know Mages used to use a blade of wizardry and swap it on, I imagine you could do the same with something like this... It would probably net you a decent amount of DPS... on the spreadsheet going from no weapon enchant to executioner is a gain of 22 DPS for me, which isn't all that bad considering, but if you mess up with swapping weapons and reset a swing timer it might ruin all the benefit.
#1502SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CunningB
EDIT: I'm updating the JoW list and I need one quick tidbit of info from you guys. Can SoC and SoB procs in turn proc JoW? Some of the people on the WoW forums are saying they can, which would result in a pretty sizable Mp5 increase, but I trust you guys more then them. Anyone have a combatlog or such that supports/refutes this?
Im pretty sure with the Ret paladin i'm currently leveling i've seen JoW proc off SoC extra attacks, it appears as 2 entrys in a row in both the combat log and on SCT with the same timecodes, although I used addon based combat log and SCT so theres a small chance of it being lag.
#1503SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well, looting the axe is a given and not really optional, don't think you'd be meleeing without it.

Still, according to my guild's calculations, I'd have to be pushing 2500 DPS with salv and 30% thread reduction from talents to pull aggro off our warrior MT in most average fights.

With legendary axe and all, you would need to be using all cooldowns, have a stacked group and pretty much the best gear in game if you want to hope to achieve that number (my best so far at teron was 1950 sustained DPS in a stacked group, 1750 in a normal group with just enh sham and war) and somehow I doubt it still.

What sorta TPS does your MT pump out?
Early in P4 all of our tanks seem to lack the rage to really put out a lot of threat, but they're normally just fine. Last time I pulled aggro was right after the first shield and I'd used Bloodlust Brooch and AW and just wasn't watching my threat. Once we leave to kill a couple eggs, its not an issue anymore. My highest sustained dps so far has been 1800 on Teron, so with cooldowns including Shaman bloodlust and the axe, I'd say that its perfectly feasible for me to be bursting well over 2k for that short period of time. I don't run live damage meters so I can't tell for sure, it could just be our tanks slacking but our arms warrior has the same problem.
#1504SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Hi Guys,

Just a quick note to let you know I have seen a number of questions regarding the spreadsheet etc. I have been and am still away on business this week with extremely limited access to the internet and thus the forums. I promise I have read the posts and will reply when i'm back this weekend and have more time.
#1505SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CunningB
Just did a quick play about to see if I could get a dual JoW proc off a SoC and the gods of chance were favouring me, this is from the normal blizzard combat log so hopefully no issue with addon lag



Not sure how this would affect the mana gain calculations from it though, might be as much as anoth 10% onto of the current listed gain thought
#1506SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Thanks Cunning, thats just what I needed.

Assuming 8 PPM for SoC gives you an extra 4 procs of JoW per minute, that's another ~25 Mp5.

Now I just need one of you cute Blood Elf pallys to give me SoB info.
#1507SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
So, does anybody know of any mobs that are:

1) Immune to Vindication...

2) Will do less damage than a heal every 15 seconds from a Shaman alt, and...

3) Have a very high amount of health, infinite health, or heal themselves?

I went afk punching a Servant in the Blasted Lands last night, and got some odd Judgement of Wisdom results over my two hour log (54% proc rate using only auto attack and one point in Vindication). I'd like to test it on a Vindication immune target to see if that affects the proc rate at all, and I'm also going to go back to the Blasted Lands and get an 8 hour log before posting definitive results.
#1508SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Lars
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
So, does anybody know of any mobs that are:

1) Immune to Vindication...

2) Will do less damage than a heal every 15 seconds from a Shaman alt, and...

3) Have a very high amount of health, infinite health, or heal themselves?

I went afk punching a Servant in the Blasted Lands last night, and got some odd Judgement of Wisdom results over my two hour log (54% proc rate using only auto attack and one point in Vindication). I'd like to test it on a Vindication immune target to see if that affects the proc rate at all, and I'm also going to go back to the Blasted Lands and get an 8 hour log before posting definitive results.
I'm not sure if they are immune to Vindication or not, but the Halaa guards have an insane amount of health and barely do any damage.
#1509SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sheltim
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Early in P4 all of our tanks seem to lack the rage to really put out a lot of threat, but they're normally just fine. Last time I pulled aggro was right after the first shield and I'd used Bloodlust Brooch and AW and just wasn't watching my threat. Once we leave to kill a couple eggs, its not an issue anymore. My highest sustained dps so far has been 1800 on Teron, so with cooldowns including Shaman bloodlust and the axe, I'd say that its perfectly feasible for me to be bursting well over 2k for that short period of time. I don't run live damage meters so I can't tell for sure, it could just be our tanks slacking but our arms warrior has the same problem.
Unrelated to the topic at hand, I checked your Armory profile (I put my first points into Ret, ever, last night...) and noticed you have the Libram of Divine Judgement. Were you grinding just before logging out or is there another reason you aren't using SOBlood?

Yes, I've read the thread and know that SOBlood should outdps SOCommand, even with the LODJ, which is why I'm asking.
#1510SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2noth
Originally Posted by Sheltim View Post
Unrelated to the topic at hand, I checked your Armory profile (I put my first points into Ret, ever, last night...) and noticed you have the Libram of Divine Judgement. Were you grinding just before logging out or is there another reason you aren't using SOBlood?

Yes, I've read the thread and know that SOBlood should outdps SOCommand, even with the LODJ, which is why I'm asking.

looks like he's in PvP gear... often horde palis use seal of command for PvP because of the higher potential burst.
#1511SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shalas
Originally Posted by Tekzor View Post
A question I’ve had in my mind for a while has been what the positive and negative aspects of weapon switching to take advantage of multiple weapon enchants would be. I use a Torch of the Damned with mongoose currently, but I was playing around with a Soul Cleaver with executioner and noticed that I could get both procs up at the same time. [Using Soul Cleaver instead of my Torch in a raid situation would probably reduce any gains noticed from the enchant procs, but if I grabbed a second Torch and put executioner on it…] GCD from weapon switch may be an issue, but since I will have to manage that manually, it should be avoidable. Has anyone tried this out before and was there any appreciable difference?
The main problem is that swapping weapons resets your swing timer. You're only looking at gains of around 10 DPS (significantly under the 22 dps for full-time Executioner due to that you'd only have Executioner equipped when Mongoose is up), which even ignoring GCD issues would probably be less than the dps you'd lose to swing timer resets.

You'd also probably just want two identical weapons with Mongoose to swap between, as Mongoose from different weapons stacks.
#1512SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shalymar
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Hi Guys,

Just a quick note to let you know I have seen a number of questions regarding the spreadsheet etc. I have been and am still away on business this week with extremely limited access to the internet and thus the forums. I promise I have read the posts and will reply when i'm back this weekend and have more time.
DPS Spreadsheet Bug:

The Khorium Champion shows a +hit of 27, it should be +37.
#1513SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gormal
I spent a few minutes outside of shatt with JoW on some wolves and didn't get a single JoW proc from SoB. I did get procs off JoB, however.

#1514SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
grayrest
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Now I just need one of you cute Blood Elf pallys to give me SoB info.
I decided that this was a good excuse to get my 2h axes up. I was unabled to get a double proc going from pounding on the blasted lands mobs from skill 300 to skill 325. Considering SoB hits on every swing, I find it unlikely that I wouldn't see anything in a couple hundred attacks. For grins (and so I could pay less attention) I switched to SoL with the same results from 325-330. In switching to SoC at 330, I saw two double JoW procs in the first three SoC procs.

Edit: I did notice the IED proc off a vindication (I wear my heal set when doing this), but that's about the only thing of note.

Last edited by grayrest : 01/15/08 at 4:17 PM.
#1515SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Zurm
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
I spent a few minutes outside of shatt with JoW on some wolves and didn't get a single JoW proc from SoB. I did get procs off JoB, however.
Confirmed, SoB does NOT proc JoW.

Proof

I expect the reason is because SoB procs every hit TWICE... once on the mob, once on yourself.

Last edited by Zurm : 01/15/08 at 5:28 PM.
#1516SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Heh, so SoC finally has something better than SoB.

Thanks for the help everyone, new version of the JoW list should be up tomorrow.
#1517SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
Yea, but SoB costs 210 mana, SoC(6) is 280. Although if you get a SoC proc in one of your two hits till your next judgement I guess that is compensated
#1518SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Laqwanda
I'm leveling my pally right now and I want to be an end game SoR pally. I would wear all cloth with spell hit/crit and larg e amounts of spell dmg raid buffed in the 1300-1500 range. All sockets would be socketed with +8 melle hit. Could i compete end game dps and is this even viable?
#1519SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Redcape
Originally Posted by Laqwanda View Post
I'm leveling my pally right now and I want to be an end game SoR pally. I would wear all cloth with spell hit/crit and larg e amounts of spell dmg raid buffed in the 1300-1500 range. All sockets would be socketed with +8 melle hit. Could i compete end game dps and is this even viable?
No, but you can do something similar and not be awful. Spell hit and spell crit are worthless to you, ignore them. If you want to use SoR, the best gear is spellpower mixed with physical hit, crit and str. It sounds bizarre, but I had basically the same thing in mind, and until 2.3.2 came out it was actually quite competitive dpswise with a full AP/Crit SoC build. I used s2 arena/honor gear and t4/t5 gear and a mix of physical and spellpower rings/trinkets/cloak/neck. You want to be hit capped and have maximum spellpower for that style but spell hit and spell crit are very weak. Your build would be 10/8/43. It is just worse than a AP/crit build now though because of the change to Crusader Strike. You won't be totally useless or anything, but you won't be particularly good.

Just make sure you use t4/t5/t6 gear and s2 stuff and you will be ok. If you actually use cloth gear mostly you will be terrible, aside from a few pieces like the Collar of Cho'gall since it has only spellpower and doesn't waste points on spellcrit/spellhit.

Edit: Oh, and eye of magtheridon is INSANE for that build. Just saying.
#1520SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2andz
Thank you folks for all the valuable information. This post is not ment to be offensive or anything like that, i just honestly believe i could have an idea to improve the thread structure.

In my opinion, this thread is getting confusing. 51 pages (and growing) iss just too much to remember, and to read if you are looking just for a specific information. My suggestion is to split this post furthermore up into Therorycraft(Itemsation), Therorycraft(Spells&Abilities) and a part to discuss freely whatever comes in your mind and does not fit into the above mentioned categories.

Now if anyone feels this post is non-contrbuting to the topic. Yes you are right. However what´s the use in super-informative posts if hardly anyone can find them in time.
If this post is violating any forum rules or you consider it disturbing, feel free to delete it immediatly.

Kind regards,
andz
#1521SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by andz View Post
Thank you folks for all the valuable information. This post is not ment to be offensive or anything like that, i just honestly believe i could have an idea to improve the thread structure.

In my opinion, this thread is getting confusing. 51 pages (and growing) iss just too much to remember, and to read if you are looking just for a specific information. My suggestion is to split this post furthermore up into Therorycraft(Itemsation), Therorycraft(Spells&Abilities) and a part to discuss freely whatever comes in your mind and does not fit into the above mentioned categories.

Now if anyone feels this post is non-contrbuting to the topic. Yes you are right. However what´s the use in super-informative posts if hardly anyone can find them in time.
If this post is violating any forum rules or you consider it disturbing, feel free to delete it immediatly.

Kind regards,
andz
Its like a good long novel.. takes time to soak in everything thats happening. Of course it doesn't help when someone posts a question thats been addressed before every 5-6 posts. =]

Majority of the more valuable information is in the opening post... most of the other information present are just little things that one can learn from reading their logs/experimentation.

Perhaps OP should consider a 'quote' section that highlights some of the jewels of advice/findings/FAQs from the now hueg like xbox thread that this little revolution has started.
#1522SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sheltim
I did my first Karazhan run as Retribution last night. The first thing that struck me was simply how mana starved I was. I had to use Blessing of Wisdom the entire night. On every boss fight I had to switch to JOWisdom and SOWisdom about halfway through, even though I was only using Crusader Strike and JOBlood/SOBlood (I dropped Consecrate from my rotation).

Aside from chain chugging mana potions, which I'd hate to do in a farm Kara run, is there something I'm missing?
#1523SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2orkyben
Hey again.

I have a question about the DPS Spreadsheet; relating to "Expertise".

Does the spreadsheet assume you are stood in front, or behind your target?

If it assumes you are in front, then expertise would negate both Parry and Dodge; hence being twice as effective as it would be in reality (taking into account you stand behind targets most of the time).

This leads me to the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] Vs. [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] debate. :S

Thanks.
#1524SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2galzohar
Originally Posted by Sheltim View Post
I did my first Karazhan run as Retribution last night. The first thing that struck me was simply how mana starved I was. I had to use Blessing of Wisdom the entire night. On every boss fight I had to switch to JOWisdom and SOWisdom about halfway through, even though I was only using Crusader Strike and JOBlood/SOBlood (I dropped Consecrate from my rotation).

Aside from chain chugging mana potions, which I'd hate to do in a farm Kara run, is there something I'm missing?
Ret pallies are simply suboptimal in kara. You require the raid buffs for mana, another pally to JoW for you, and windfury totem to do good DPS, and this is not something you usually get in a 10-man.
#1525SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rheyah
You do not need Windfury to do good DPS. You can do perfectly capable DPS without it, just not compatible with a 25 person environment. You need it there, where the stacking buffs of other classes vastly increase their damage potential and the groups of mobs are larger and tougher.

A Ret paladin is perfectly capable of topping DPS meters without Windfury in a 10 person raid. I've done it myself.
#1526SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Sheltim View Post
I did my first Karazhan run as Retribution last night. The first thing that struck me was simply how mana starved I was. I had to use Blessing of Wisdom the entire night. On every boss fight I had to switch to JOWisdom and SOWisdom about halfway through, even though I was only using Crusader Strike and JOBlood/SOBlood (I dropped Consecrate from my rotation).

Aside from chain chugging mana potions, which I'd hate to do in a farm Kara run, is there something I'm missing?
If my math isn't wrong (its early in the morning, sorry), using a straight CS/JoB cycle will cost you ~315 Mp5. Between JoW (~100 Mp5) and BoW (41 Mp5) it looks like you will be spending ~174 mana every 5 seconds. That gives you (with about 5.1k mana with paw and AI) about 150 seconds of DPS time. In all honesty you might need to be potting in kara. Its easiest just to spend those AV tokens on some [Major Combat Mana Potion]s (as an aside, the new flavor texts on those things is awesome!).

One of the hardest things for me to get used to when I spec ret is that the style of potting is so much different than healing. When I'm holy its just the general "at -3000 mana pot and burn one every 2 minutes after". With ret it really depends on your cycle.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Ret pallies are simply suboptimal in kara. You require the raid buffs for mana, another pally to JoW for you, and windfury totem to do good DPS, and this is not something you usually get in a 10-man.
That's such an oversimplification it hurts. Of course you won't do 25-man damage in kara, but you can still do respectable personal DPS without an enhancement shaman.

The reason ret pallys aren't great in kara is the same reason DPS Warriors and Rogues aren't. The instance in general is melee unfriendly (excluding Aran) and more importantly all melee DPS classes scale with gear to an incredible degree. Once you start getting some nice heroic/T5/Za DPS loots you'll see your personal DPS skyrocket compared to the casters that rule kara.
#1527SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Hey again.

I have a question about the DPS Spreadsheet; relating to "Expertise".

Does the spreadsheet assume you are stood in front, or behind your target?

If it assumes you are in front, then expertise would negate both Parry and Dodge; hence being twice as effective as it would be in reality (taking into account you stand behind targets most of the time).

This leads me to the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] Vs. [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] debate. :S

Thanks.
If you have enough hit, expertise is a great way to increase your DPS. Im sitting at about 14 expertise which reduces dodges and parries by about 4%. I think the spreadsheet assumes you attack from the back.

I would still stand in back and here is why. A boss cannot parry from behind, only dodge. If a boss parries one of your attacks, it increases the speed if his next attack which is usually on the tank. So if you are getting parried, it means your tank is getting hit more often which eats up their shield blocks.
#1528SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Even if you somehow reach the total expertise cap for a frontal attack (I read somewhere its something like 10% for most T6 bosses) you still wouldn't want to. Most bosses can block from the front (in addition to parry and dodge), and WepEx does nothing for that.
#1529SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Rheyah View Post
A Ret paladin is perfectly capable of topping DPS meters without Windfury in a 10 person raid. I've done it myself.
Only when a large gear gap is present. My T6 ret pally beats out alts in t4/5, but I can never do competitive dps in Kara with people of equal gear without WF. Warlocks can still push 1800+ dps without a proper group, i can't break 1200. On the other hand, with a proper dps group, I sit anywhere between 1500-1800 dps.
#1530SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Foofu
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Haste does effect SoB in the sheet

Briefly, how item calc works. Lets say you've set up your gear and it's saying you have 1000dps. When you run Item calc, it will first look at your head gear. It goes through each helm item and works out the dps if you had each helm. It looks at Helm X and the dps drops to 990. It then looks at Helm Y and dps is 1010, so it lists Helm Y with 10 (dps increase next it it). It does that with all items. The enchants you set up will stay the same, but every socket of every item it compares is filled with +Str gems (to keep things even), as it's impossible to know exactly how you would socket it. Ideally it would socket each item based on the gemming combination which gives the highest dps, but the calculation time would be tooo big

The hit cap is 9% hit
Socketing everything to str would be fine comparing 2 items in a void, but the spreadsheet compares 2 different items using the rest of your gear as a base. This means anyone without 9% total hit using any combination of 15 of their 16 items will have at least 1 item comparison that overvalues +hit since you're no longer capped and hit is the biggest dps increase stat when you're not capped. When you have sockets you can stick +hit gems in that is probably not the best comparison.

I've reworked my copy of v30 to socket to 9% hit and then socket str if that's something you would be interested in incorporating in future versions bellator. It helps keep the spreadsheet from grossly overvaluing items with +hit on them for people who have to socket some +hit to cap (or could be better off socketing hit to cap). I think this is a lot better way to work the comparison for anyone who isn't already several percent beyond the hit cap because it brings down the value of straight +hit vs. sockets to something reasonable. It could on occasion screw you out of a tiny bit of dps where it would be better to gem str and live with 8.x% hit instead of gemming to 9.x but I consider that an acceptable tradeoff. Gemming for +hit is the right answer over staying uncapped the vast majority of the time.

The spreadsheet is currently unable to tell you the very best combination of items. It can find a combination of items for which there is no single item that results in a dps upgrade however, which makes for a fairly solid ending gearset. The one I found had all str gems socketed, even with the option to socket +hit, so I'm inclined to believe people at high (T6 farm) levels of gear have very little need for this enhancement, but it may find some combinations you wouldn't otherwise see I suppose.

One more tip for people, if you don't want to see a socket bonus on an item broken up, you can add the item again yourself and use the stats you would have socketed instead and simply not include any sockets (except meta if applicable).

-----------

If anyone is interested in using what I wrote:

Changes the function of "Socket Strength" to fill with Strength Gems like normal and then backfill hit gems into yellow, blue, and red sockets in that order as needed to reach 9% hit (or run out of sockets).

Please note I'm using 8 Str and 8 Hit gems. You can obviously just change the 8's to 10's to go back to using 10's if they are available to you.

1.) Name your +hit total cell (H17) to "Hit" (no quotes)
2.) In the macro editor go to module2 and replace from Public Sub Socket_Str() to the first End Sub with the following

Public Sub Socket_Str()
    Dim PlusHit
    Dim CurCell As Object

    For Each CurCell In Range(Names("MyGems"))
        If CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "m" Then
            CurCell.Value = "12 Agi & 3% Increased Crit Dmg"
        ElseIf CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "y" Then
            CurCell.Value = "8 Str"
        ElseIf CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "b" Then
            CurCell.Value = "8 Str"
        ElseIf CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "r" Then
            CurCell.Value = "8 Str"
        Else
            CurCell.Value = "None"
        End If
    Next

    'only bother to socket hit if the base gear doesn't have it
    PlusHit = Range(Names("Hit")).Value
    If PlusHit < 9 Then

        'socket hit to yellows first
        For Each CurCell In Range(Names("MyGems"))
            If CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "y" Then
                PlusHit = Range(Names("Hit")).Value
                If PlusHit < 9 Then
                    CurCell.Value = "8 Hit"
                Else
                    Exit Sub
                End If
            End If
        Next

        'socket hit to blues next
        For Each CurCell In Range(Names("MyGems"))
            If CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "b" Then
                PlusHit = Range(Names("Hit")).Value
                If PlusHit < 9 Then
                    CurCell.Value = "8 Hit"
                Else
                    Exit Sub
                End If
            End If
        Next

        'socket hit to red last
        For Each CurCell In Range(Names("MyGems"))
            If CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "r" Then
                PlusHit = Range(Names("Hit")).Value
                If PlusHit < 9 Then
                    CurCell.Value = "8 Hit"
                Else
                    Exit Sub
                End If
            End If
        Next
    End If
End Sub
#1531SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2orkyben
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I would still stand in back and here is why. A boss cannot parry from behind, only dodge. If a boss parries one of your attacks, it increases the speed if his next attack which is usually on the tank. So if you are getting parried, it means your tank is getting hit more often which eats up their shield blocks.
Oh of course you would always attack from behind; what I wanted to know was if the spreadsheet took this into account.

If the Spreadsheet assumed you attack from the front - then any "Expertise" would negate both dodges AND parry's. In reality you always stand behind your target; so "Expertise" only negates dodges. If this were the case then the spreadsheet would be effectively doubling the DPS value of Expertise rating - if you see what I mean. :P

If you are sure the spreadsheet assumes you are standing behind you target (and can't be parried) then this isn't an issue and the spreadsheet is accurate.
#1532SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Hey again.

I have a question about the DPS Spreadsheet; relating to "Expertise".

Does the spreadsheet assume you are stood in front, or behind your target?

If it assumes you are in front, then expertise would negate both Parry and Dodge; hence being twice as effective as it would be in reality (taking into account you stand behind targets most of the time).
DPSing "from the front" does not exist in wow and as such the spreadsheet only considers the dodge reduction.


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Ret pallies are simply suboptimal in kara. You require the raid buffs for mana, another pally to JoW for you, and windfury totem to do good DPS, and this is not something you usually get in a 10-man.
But then again, the only buff that "really" matters for a ret pala is WF. All the other stuff is a roughly linear-ish increase for ret pala as well as all other classes, so there's no argument here.

Breaking the reply into two parts.

Ret pala in Kara without WF:

With equal gear, you can compete for top position, you can do very decent dps especially in places like Kara where you can spam undead. Probably won't be the very top (though possible, depends on group combo), but won't be at the bottom either, depending on the classes/individual players that you have.

Ret pala in Kara man with WF:

You can comfortably reach the top, especially in Kara with all the undead.




Personally when I do Kara for badges I'm lucky enough to have 1-2 shaman alts who can provide WF and SoE, just don't spam consecration too much or if you're geared enough in your ret kit/got reliable healers OT mobs for mana.

Use some cheap mana pots here and there and drink every chance.


And if you're doing ZA then you should worry about group synergy, been topping meters there but we do go with a good group synergy to go for timed run.
#1533SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Tyrian
Our raids almost always have a ret pally in them. I was a little surprised to hear him say he was one of the only ret pallys raiding on the server, not just for an Illidan killing guild but for all the major raiing guilds.

I usually keep him in the Windfury+Fury Warrior group but sometimes I mix him into the crit/agi+str totem group (feral druid + hunter + resto shaman) to take turns giving other people windfury. Heres the dps of our last teron kill showing his performance: (1361 dps)

WWS = WWS Loading... Other bosses available on request if anyone is interested.

Not trying to make any sweeping conclusions on spec viability - ill leave that to others to do - but we're very happy with how ret pallys perform in raids (both by themself and factoring in all the utility/synergy benefits) and with any upcoming Class Mechanic changes - it can only get better.

Last edited by Tyrian : 01/17/08 at 2:10 AM.
#1534SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ragnor
I normally do hyjal and farm bosses as ret, progression as holy. However lately we are simply lacking quality holy paladins (and backup healers in general) who are attuned. The quality of dps applications has been great but we only see healers applying with 1500-1700 +heal and not attuned zzzz.

As for other guilds on Blackrock, I think Eminence will never have a serious raiding ret paladin. Eriond and some of their old school warrior officers are strongly against dps paladins. Before I joined I HitSquad pre TBC I considered Eminence and was told no because they didn't want another Blackreigns 2.0 lol. Well I did have ashkandi and full T2.5 but I also had some pretty awesome healing gear part way through naxx (rejuv gem, shard of the scale, widow's mace etc etc ).

At the end of the day not enough healers = raid over, a ret pally is expendable easy to interchange for any other dps at a push.

Respec'ing at least once a week breaks up the monotony of raiding anyway heh and of not having enough time due to work to have decent alts.
#1535SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Tyrian
As for other guilds on Blackrock, I think Eminence will never have a serious raiding ret paladin. Eriond and some of their old school warrior officers are strongly against dps paladins
When we first let people know we were recruiting a Ret Pally we were met with skeptisicm (and a little criticism) from others, both in-guild and out of guild. Common comments included "Ret pallys are broken/shit" or "We dont need one" or "They dont justify their spot compared to other classes" or "What benefits do they even bring to the raid?".

When we looked around and researched a little - threads like this were very helpful - and WWS invaluable (I remember following Blood Legions' ret pally Grant quite alot on WWS for a while).

Eriond and some of their old school warrior officers are strongly against dps paladins
Well thats the thing - guilds really can only have ret pallys if their Raid Leader/GM are a little openminded and prepared to try it out. People who share direct raid/group spots with ret pallys (like warriors, rogues) naturally might be a little more hesitant. As a mage however, I was personally thrilled id be getting JOW up on fights where we needed *evil face *

From the very start we made it clear that we were recruiting a good player and that that we'll give him a fair chance to prove what his class is capable of - and if it wasnt deemed acceptable we'd politely remove him - however that never happened. I think raid leaders have to get away from the idea of 'we are recruiting a ret pally - omg!' and instead focus more on the player.

Find and recruit a player who applies, who happens to be a ret pally, who can convince you of their determination/desire to be a core part of your guild and give them a chance to prove it. Guilds might be surprised at the results.


Perhaps off on a slight tangent, one thing blizzard REALLY need to do is change buff tooltips to be updated by talents that affect them. Some of my rogues still had no idea (after months of raiding with a ret pally in their group) that Improved Sanctity Aura gives them 2% more damage, hence encouraging people tend to question their worth.

People are much more open to hybrids if they see a fancy effect (windfury, LOTP heal and tooltip, moonkin aura tooltip, vampiric embrace) that visibly benefits them. The ret pallys ones are not transparent enough and IMO should be remade into something that much more obvious/visable that people can appreciate. 3% crit, 2% damage is nice, but its completely obscured, hidden by tooltips that dont even mention them - and therefore a little underrated and unappredicated. As a raid leader - thats the biggest problem I have with the class - give pallys a fancy 'ooh - look it procced' buff their group can admire, like windfury/lotp/vampiric embrace etc does currently. It makes you enjoy having them in your group more. It doesnt have to be overpowered obviously, just a little more interactive than the current very uninspired, dull "2% damage to group, 3% crit to raid".

Last edited by Tyrian : 01/17/08 at 8:47 AM.
#1536SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
The ret pallys ones are not transparent enough and IMO should be remade into something that much more obvious/visable that people can appreciate. 3% crit, 2% damage is nice, but its completely obscured, hidden by tooltips that dont mention them - and therefore a little underrated..
I could not agree any more with this statement. My personal opinion is these skills need to be increased -slightly- and add just one more piece of synergy to top it off.

One thought was consecration healing party members, either via a deep ret talent or just paladins in general. of course, the mana regen issue would need to be dealt with first.
#1537SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mearis
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
At the end of the day not enough healers = raid over, a ret pally is expendable easy to interchange for any other dps at a push.

Respec'ing at least once a week breaks up the monotony of raiding anyway heh and of not having enough time due to work to have decent alts.
This is basically the crux, and the fact that it is quite easy to get quality DPS, but quality healers are much much more rare in my experience. We have a raiding ret paladin, he was on almost all our BT guild firsts, but there was a long stretch of time when we were struggling for healers and he healed.

If you put your spec ahead of the guild progression, no guild should cater to your whims. There are also some fights where extra melees are a liability, like Najentus, Illidan, etc. Besides that - our ret paladin has done up to 1300 dps on some fights without windfury, and around 1500 at the very max with windfury and all the trimming - usually he hovers in the 1200-1400 DPS range though.
#1538SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Antiock
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
I could not agree any more with this statement. My personal opinion is these skills need to be increased -slightly- and add just one more piece of synergy to top it off.

One thought was consecration healing party members, either via a deep ret talent or just paladins in general. of course, the mana regen issue would need to be dealt with first.
I would like to see repentence made trainable, and add a new spell for ret. Maybe a new blessing that'd be useful for anyone in the raid, like add haste rating. I have no idea exactly how much haste would be "balanced" (maybe like 1%), but I feel like that would be pretty useful to anyone, and would be something very unique to ret paladins.
#1539SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
I would like to see repentence made trainable, and add a new spell for ret. Maybe a new blessing that'd be useful for anyone in the raid, like add haste rating. I have no idea exactly how much haste would be "balanced" (maybe like 1%), but I feel like that would be pretty useful to anyone, and would be something very unique to ret paladins.
Blessings aren't the answer, because we need something which is very visible, applies to our party, and affects melee damage only. We need to not only justify our raid slot, but our melee group spot as well. We need Unleashed Rage, or Windfury level group buffs. Crit is take by ferals, AP is taken by enhancement shamans and warriors. Haste is open, as is armor penetration. Since armor pen is less useful to US, my prejudice would be to an Unleashed Rage type buff which increases party member haste by some amount.


To dream the impossible dream...
#1540SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Antiock
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Blessings aren't the answer, because we need something which is very visible, applies to our party, and affects melee damage only. We need to not only justify our raid slot, but our melee group spot as well. We need Unleashed Rage, or Windfury level group buffs. Crit is take by ferals, AP is taken by enhancement shamans and warriors. Haste is open, as is armor penetration. Since armor pen is less useful to US, my prejudice would be to an Unleashed Rage type buff which increases party member haste by some amount.


To dream the impossible dream...
Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe if it was added to vengeance, where you'd get your 5% damage, and 1% haste to the party (still stacking 3 times, up to 15% and 3% haste).

But you're right. This is all just dreaming for now.

And just to get this thread back into reality a little....when a boss drops below 20%, do you guys try to weave Hammer of Wrath into your attacks? I know it resets the swing timer, but I wasn't sure if it would actually be a dps increase if you used it immediately after an attack.

Last edited by Antiock : 01/17/08 at 11:02 AM.
#1541SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2xellos
As far as visible buffs go, I've always loved the idea of having an improved Avenging Wrath where the effect would extend to your group as well. Of course, the effect would be scaled down for the group since 30% extra dmg for the group every 3 min would be slightly crazy. It could replace the terrible improved retribution aura talent. Additionally, have improved AW switch places with Divine Purpose so it's a true deep retribution talent. Give mini-wings to the group members when you use it for good measure too. A man can only dream...
#1542SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tyrian
Give mini-wings to the group members when you use it for good measure too
As funny as it sounds, its a good idea. Even if you think of a different effect for a new pally synergy group-buff (haste sounds nice), im sure people would love getting their own pally wings!
#1543SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
hen a boss drops below 20%, do you guys try to weave Hammer of Wrath into your attacks? I know it resets the swing timer, but I wasn't sure if it would actually be a dps increase if you used it immediately after an attack.
I sometimes use it, like when killing Al'ar adds or if I have extra mana at the end of a fight. If you have mana left after a boss, you diddnt rank your spells correctly. I dont know if this is cannonically correct, but I have a fun macro attached to my hammer:

/y ITS HAMMER (of wrath) TIME!!!!!!!!
/cast Hammer of Wrath

My turn for a noobish question. Can you have a sharpening/weightstone on your weapon and still get the benefit of WF totem? I have been using sharpening/weightstones for a while and I ran out of them last night in BT, whereafter I saw a lot more <Windfury Attack>

Showing a little epeen, heres another retpally teron WWS where I blew him out of his shoes:
WWS Loading...
#1544SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Anarkii
No you can't use stones if you want to get WF.
#1545SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2xellos
Haste would be nice, but it would be too similar to Bloodlust/Heroism in my opinion. The other idea I had for improved AW is faster mana/energy regeneration and rage generation. It'd be like Shamanistic Rage, Adrenaline Rush, and Endless Rage rolled into one.
#1546SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
My turn for a noobish question. Can you have a sharpening/weightstone on your weapon and still get the benefit of WF totem? I have been using sharpening/weightstones for a while and I ran out of them last night in BT, whereafter I saw a lot more <Windfury Attack>
Sharpening Stones overwrite a Windfury buff, so no you don't want to use them if you get the shaman. If you're stuck in a tank group or something though I could see use for them.

Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
And just to get this thread back into reality a little....when a boss drops below 20%, do you guys try to weave Hammer of Wrath into your attacks? I know it resets the swing timer, but I wasn't sure if it would actually be a dps increase if you used it immediately after an attack.
If you have the mana for it, HoW is a pretty sizable DPS increase. However, it does reset the swing timer, so you have to be careful to do it right after an autoswing so you push that back as little as possible. The fact remains it is the biggest mana sink Paladins have, so you have to be careful with it so that you don't blow too much mana and can't CS for the last 10% or so.

I honestly would like to see some additional utility added to the actual Judgement Spell, like making successful Judgements increase party damage by X% for 10 seconds. Just something to make it completely worthwhile to keep up a full Judgement cycle other than slightly higher personal DPS. It would be nice to get some uniqueness to the buff too, maybe armor penetration, critical strike bonus damage, haste rating... Lots of options there.
#1547SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I honestly would like to see some additional utility added to the actual Judgement Spell, like making successful Judgements increase party damage by X% for 10 seconds. Just something to make it completely worthwhile to keep up a full Judgement cycle other than slightly higher personal DPS. It would be nice to get some uniqueness to the buff too, maybe armor penetration, critical strike bonus damage, haste rating... Lots of options there.
Im pulling for seal of blood, but I had the thought of more of a "Prismatic Seal" that joined light, wis and crusader into one judgement so you dont need other pallys to rejudge light and wis in case they get pushed off by other debuffs. Trivial, maybe.

I'm also liking the group AW buff. Maybe "Increases party damage by 6%" something like 30%/5 or something of that nature.
#1548SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shalymar
Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
As funny as it sounds, its a good idea. Even if you think of a different effect for a new pally synergy group-buff (haste sounds nice), im sure people would love getting their own pally wings!
Can you say Pally's version of Bloodlust FTW! I love the idea.
#1549SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Sorry to say, but my experience with HoW spam, even with 4 set T6 bonus (+10% to HoW), is that it's completely useless, not only does it delay your swing timer, but in effect it delays your chances to SoC (due to that swing delay) too, which is a double penalty that's just not worth taking.

You're better off just continuing your rotation or spamming consecration if you want to blow your extra mana.

Makes me really wonder what they were thinking with that set bonus in the first place since you won't use T6 in pvp (and if you do, the benefit of that set bonus is very marginal) and in PvE it's beyond worthless... I'd trade it off for 10 str, or 1 str even, anything for that matter.

Compare to all other DPS classes, their set bonuses pretty much give them a flat ~5% DPS increase (warlocks, mages, rogues) or at least a significant buff to their main attack.
#1550SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
Ideally I'd like to see the Tier 6 4-piece bonus steal the [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] bonus. It's never a sign of good design when a best in slot PvE item is from PvP.

Still no luck finding a mob that's immune to Vindication and that won't stomp my face in.
#1551SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
I agree that our 4 piece bonus is terrible. A nice 5% boost to CS or seals or something would have been nicer (and more in line with all the other DPS classes getting increased damage to their main combat attacks). But I digress.

Hammer of Wrath IV
440 Mana
665-735 damage
6 second CD

Ideal Situation:
Assuming you have unlimited mana and use it every 6 seconds, 3 stacks of Vengeance, JotC, 213 spell damage (5 pieces of T6), Sanctity Aura (with 2/2 Improved), 3/3 Crusade (active), 4-piece T6 bonus, and always hit.
Hammer of Wrath IV
Average Damage: 1294
DPM: 2.94
DPS: 215.67
Compared to Max Rank Consecration in the exact same situation:
Consecration VI
Average Damage (tic): 153
DPM: 1.85
DPS: 153
There are two things to remember from here though. First is that Hammer of Wrath is both capable of critting and takes your melee crit chance. This means your average paladin will be seeing about a third of his Hammers getting a critical, upping the actual DPS by a fairly good degree. The second thing to remember, and the most important, is that HoW does push back your swing timer. It is entirely possible that the extra DPS you gain from HoW is lost in the increased time on your swings, especially if you time it badly. A talent to remove the cast time to HoW would really be excellent for Paladin DPS though.

This of course isn't counting full or partial resists, since I have no real way to calculate the latter.
#1552SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Ideally I'd like to see the Tier 6 4-piece bonus steal the [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] bonus. It's never a sign of good design when a best in slot PvE item is from PvP.

Still no luck finding a mob that's immune to Vindication and that won't stomp my face in.
Really? You'd want a reduction to Hammer of Justice cooldown for a PvE set bonus? I'm no expert on tier 6 mobs, but I operate under the impression that most enemies in raid instances are immune to stuns. I'd like either of the t4 ret bonuses... or hell, even the t6 prot 4 piece bonus. Most any of the other set bonuses that don't apply to holy or prot-specific abilities would do.
#1553SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 zeidrich
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Really? You'd want a reduction to Hammer of Justice cooldown for a PvE set bonus? I'm no expert on tier 6 mobs, but I operate under the impression that most enemies in raid instances are immune to stuns. I'd like either of the t4 ret bonuses... or hell, even the t6 prot 4 piece bonus. Most any of the other set bonuses that don't apply to holy or prot-specific abilities would do.
He means the +5% damage to crusader strike. The bonus specific to the gauntlets. Not the 4-piece bonus of the gladiator's set (since hammer of wrath is crap, and CS is used every cooldown).

In fact, I would venture to say that the 4 piece PvE bonus would really be more at home on a PvP set.
#1554SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Sorry to say, but my experience with HoW spam, even with 4 set T6 bonus (+10% to HoW), is that it's completely useless, not only does it delay your swing timer, but in effect it delays your chances to SoC (due to that swing delay)
If you use HoW like Slam (use right after a swing), the dps lose from the reset of the Swing timer is not much.


It still is marginal but a gain, assuming you use a swing timer.
#1555SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Avitus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If you use HoW like Slam (use right after a swing), the dps lose from the reset of the Swing timer is not much.


It still is marginal but a gain, assuming you use a swing timer.
I know about slam timing since I have a warrior too

The gain you're theorizing about, sounds more to me like a "what if batman and superman had a baby" sort of scenario, possible if you stretch your imagination, but realistically with the low spelldamage on retri gear, lag, delaying of swing timer which causes a double penalty of delaying white as well as SoC procs (as well as WF procs, triple penalty if you will), clipping with GCD of other abilities... need I go on?

Simply not worth it and in no way ever worth justifying the laughable T6 4 set "bonus".

Frankly I find the set bonus a bit insulting, it just shows how misinformed even the devs are about how this spec works.

Last edited by Avitus : 01/18/08 at 1:22 AM.
#1556SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2little_ramona
First-time poster here. Please forgive me for any breach of forum-ettiquette. I would also like to apologise if the following post has been posted earlier, I haven't read all 63 pages yet.

What I am looking for is some kind of at-a-glance system for comparing ret gear, similar to the Tank Points mod. As a PvP ret pally pre-BC I used the following system:

Str = 1 point
Int = 1
Stam = 1
Agi = 0.5
1% crit = 10

...then compare the totals of the different items (obviously). This system worked well for me and was very easy to calculate (however, I do think I under-rated agi/crit and over-rated int).

What systems do you all use? Is there a mod around that will do the work for you? TY and peace.
#1557SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by little_ramona View Post
What systems do you all use? Is there a mod around that will do the work for you? TY and peace.
Use this spreadsheet: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

You'll find your personal "Strength Equivalency" values at the top of the first page after you configure the gear/raid buffs to match yours.
#1558SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2little_ramona
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Use this spreadsheet: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

You'll find your personal "Strength Equivalency" values at the top of the first page after you configure the gear/raid buffs to match yours.
Thanks! Time to confront my fear of spreadsheets.
#1559SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Antiock
Originally Posted by little_ramona View Post
Thanks! Time to confront my fear of spreadsheets.
As spreadsheets go, this one is very well made and extremely easy to use. I've used spreadsheets for other classes, and never seen one I liked as much as this.
#1560SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Ideal Situation:
Assuming you have unlimited mana and use it every 6 seconds, 3 stacks of Vengeance, JotC, 213 spell damage (5 pieces of T6), Sanctity Aura (with 2/2 Improved), 3/3 Crusade (active), 4-piece T6 bonus, and always hit.
Hammer of Wrath IV
Average Damage: 1294
DPM: 2.94
DPS: 215.67
Compared to Max Rank Consecration in the exact same situation:
Consecration VI
Average Damage (tic): 153
DPM: 1.85
DPS: 153
Using a plate-only optimal DPS set like you did yields the following breakdown for your other actions:

White damage: 585 DPS
Seal of Command damage: 311 DPS
Windfury damage: 120 DPS

So that's 508 damage that's guaranteed to be lost to Hammer of Wrath cast time, with flawless timing. I'm also going to assume that you have 40% crit chance fully buffed, so that bumps up Hammer of Wrath's gross damage to 1825.

Using those numbers, the point to which you can delay before Hammer of Wrath deals less damage than using Consecration is 0.393 seconds. That includes both latency and reaction time. To put it in perspective, I lose about 0.2 to 0.3 seconds per cast to latency on my Mage when I rapidly hammer the Frostbolt button; that leaves less than a tenth of a second of wiggle room to ensure that Hammer of Wrath is an effective use of a cooldown.

However, all of this math is assuming that you have the four piece Tier 6 set bonus. If you don't have the set bonus, the point to which you can delay your cast is 0.230 seconds after your swing, which is impossible given my very normal North American latency.

Conclusion: Hammer of Wrath is only worthwhile if the following two conditions are met:
  1. You are playing from the server room in Irvine California.
  2. Your secret identity is Barry Allen.
#1561SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
So the conclusion we can draw from this is that HoW is pretty much useless in PvE situations (though in PvP it is quite fun) for a ret pally as long as it has a cast time. Seems like a simple enough thing to fix, and I would expect the devs could tack it on to some talent to make it instant cast (or replace Improved Retribution Aura).
#1562SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Valerys
[Cloak of Fiends] should be added to the spreadsheet, as far as I can tell it's currently the best cloak in the game if you are hit capped.
#1563SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Antiock
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Conclusion: Hammer of Wrath is only worthwhile if the following two conditions are met:
  1. You are playing from the server room in Irvine California.
  2. Your secret identity is Barry Allen.
Thanks for all the calculations, guys. This is something that I've been very unsure about since I started raiding as ret.
#1564SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Valerys
I think HoW is nice in a few very specific situations - such as when Leotheras is at 2%, whirlwinding, and we have to burn him down asap because our warlock tank just died.
#1565SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Antiock
Hmmm....is it just me, or does the spreadsheet not check to make sure you're meeting the gem requirements for meta gems? At least, that seems to be the case with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
#1566SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2HolyHotty
After deciding to save a Torch of the Damned from being DE'd last week, I got lucky and 6 pieces of BT/Hyjal loot dropped that no one wanted. I've been Ret for about a week now and am still trying to figure out all the intricacies of the spec. I've pretty much got the basics: SoB > SoC, Str/AP > Crit/Agi > spelldmg, 9% hit with talents is all I need, the relentless earthstorm diamond is the best meta gem, and Haste is a really good stat. However, I still have a few questions and I read way too slow to make it through 63 pages worth of posts . I apologize in advance for any questions that have been asked and answered a million times, and I'll make my list short and to the point.

Assume: Seal of Blood, only doing heroics through ZA (guild would kill me if I showed up to BT as ret), I have access to every piece of PvE and cheap PvP gear, no access to epic gems, gold not important for consumables or enchants.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Questions:
1) "Best" weapon enchant(s)? (Solo and raids)
2) Elixirs, Flasks?
3) Best dps rotation? (Do I need to time crusader strike with my auto attacks? Questions like that.)
4) Suggestions for gear/talents? ie. obvious or easy to obtain gear upgrades, better enchants, and talents I should/shouldn't have.

Thank you in advance for the help.
#1567SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
Rotation is in the first post, talents... it varies but usually its something like 5/8-10/46-48. If you want an idea look at my armory.

The rest can be answered by the spreadsheet bellator makes... enter your gear and plug away.

Bellator's spreadsheets

Edit: And in case it hasn't been said enough, TYVM for your hard work on this spreadsheet Bellator. It IS much appreciated by the members of this thread.
#1568SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2HolyHotty
Thanks for the quick reply. I read the first 10 pages or so of info, but I was just wondering if any "new and improved" rotations or theorycraft stuff like that came up in the following 50 pages. The few uber ret pallies that I checked all have mongoose so I guess I'll go with that one :P. Also, I'm terrible at figuring out how to use spreadsheets but I'll keep at it :P
#1569SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
Weapon enchant depends on your gear. At lower gear levels, savagery is accepted as the best, and around endgame mongoose or executioner can be best depending on how much armor penetration you have. Seeing as how a large chunk of dmg I do is magic, I decided to avoid armor penetration and use mongoose.

Looking at your armory, you look pretty well off atm. I'd say priority #1 is to get a [Libram of Avengement] from heroic BF (I think, been a while). That's endgame
#1570SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2xellos
Originally Posted by HolyHotty View Post
(guild would kill me if I showed up to BT as ret)
Your guild sucks :p

While looking at your armory I noticed that you have 115 hit rating and 3/3 Precision. All you need is 9% total hit (~142 hit rating), so you could drop 1 point out of precision or adjust your gear when you get upgrades. Additionally, pick up the S3 gloves. Getting the best hands in the game for only 1125 arena points is unbelievable.
#1571SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Your guild sucks :p

While looking at your armory I noticed that you have 115 hit rating and 3/3 Precision. All you need is 9% total hit (~142 hit rating), so you could drop 1 point out of precision or adjust your gear when you get upgrades. Additionally, pick up the S3 gloves. Getting the best hands in the game for only 1125 arena points is unbelievable.
Troof on the S3 gloves. Best, bonus, ever.

Get a new helm glyph, it looks like you have all the hit you could ever need. Get Glyph of the Outcast from lower city (+str/int).

You arguably have better gear than me, and heres a WWS of our first night on Bloodboil to show you how viable ret is, especially with seal of blood on your side. Start talking to your raid leader to bring a ret pally. The utility and damage we bring to a 25 man is very valuable.

Wow Web Stats
#1572SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Zurm
Salty, that is by far the oddest placement of classes in a WWS for gorefiend I have ever seen... warlocks not first? O_o

I guess you guys are still gearing up...most everyone in my guild only needs 1-2 pieces to be fully endgame, and I usually place 5th-8th. Can't touch the over 2k dps the locks do and the 1800+ dps rogues. I usually sit around the 1500 mark for gorefiend.

Edit:

Actually... our guild placed 24th on world dps on gorefiend this week. I got first ghost though, so I didn't do that amazing.

If you guys are curious what ret dps looks like on gorefiend, I frapsed the kill linked above. Gearwise, I'm missing [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Belt of Seething Fury], and [Lightbringer Breastplate] from being fully endgame. Also good for those who haven't been ghosted yet. Please don't critique my video editing skills; I made the video in about 10 minutes for one of our shaman who wanted to see what my damage looks like.

Enjoy

Last edited by Zurm : 01/18/08 at 4:44 PM.
#1573SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2HolyHotty
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll definitely have to get those S3 gloves, that libram, and maybe a new glyph for my helm. It would probably be a lot of fun to give ret a try in BT, unfortunately we already have a ret paladin that's been ret since 2.3, and I'm pretty sure he'd try to find and kill me in real life if I took his spot.
#1574SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Salty, that is by far the oddest placement of classes in a WWS for gorefiend I have ever seen... warlocks not first? O_o

I guess you guys are still gearing up...most everyone in my guild only needs 1-2 pieces to be fully endgame, and I usually place 5th-8th. Can't touch the over 2k dps the locks do and the 1800+ dps rogues. I usually sit around the 1500 mark for gorefiend.
]
I posted a Grutogg Bloodboil WWS, but I can show you a Gorefiend as well =P We were just learning the fight so the locks were spamming drain life a lot. As far as the locks go, they should be shadowbolt spamming/ CoDoom and wtf ever else they do. Usually out best lock (Caps....Caps lock get it?) is throwing out mad deeps and is on top a lot of the fights. Dont hate on me for hammer of wrathing at the end, that was prior EJ discussion.

Wow Web Stats

Why are you shooting for that belt [Belt of Seething Fury]? The [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is mo better imo. The expertise REALLY cuts down on dodges.
#1575SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So the conclusion we can draw from this is that HoW is pretty much useless in PvE situations (though in PvP it is quite fun) for a ret pally as long as it has a cast time. Seems like a simple enough thing to fix, and I would expect the devs could tack it on to some talent to make it instant cast (or replace Improved Retribution Aura).
But no, they can't give us a "ranged instacast execute", that would be imbalanced *cough SW: Death* :P


Originally Posted by HolyHotty View Post
Questions:
1) "Best" weapon enchant(s)? (Solo and raids)
2) Elixirs, Flasks?
3) Best dps rotation? (Do I need to time crusader strike with my auto attacks? Questions like that.)
4) Suggestions for gear/talents? ie. obvious or easy to obtain gear upgrades, better enchants, and talents I should/shouldn't have.

Thank you in advance for the help.
1) Mongoose. Supposedly for Belf stacking haste Executioner is arguably equal, but you can't go wrong with Mongoose imo.
2) Flask of Relentless Assault. If you want to use pots, depends on your stats, but Str pot or Agi pot (surprisingly good), Str Food
3) CS everytime it's up, JoC/JoB everytime it's up and won't conflict with CS, Consecration inbetween if you got mana
4) Spec looks good, you could arguably dump your Benediction points into Imp BoM (if you're the disgnated BoM buffer), though difference is marginal either way
4*) Gear looks pretty good, maybe try to lose some hit (-1.2%) and get str/crit instead, maybe drop your neck and get the one from SSC trash if you still can get there, you HAVE to upgrade your libram farm [Libram of Avengement] in heroic Blood Furnace, possibly invest in a [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] for sustained pve dps

Hope all that info wasn't too tightly packed to read

Last edited by Avitus : 01/18/08 at 5:35 PM.
#1576SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cathmor
Okay, I've been following along with the thread for a while now, and have been raiding as ret since just a bit after 2.3. Got a question that has been touched on but I don't think has been really dug into... everyone always says, straight strength gems for every slot you can, just enough other color gems to activate your meta gem, and stack AP to the max. But, is there an AP breakpoint or point of inflection in which it becomes better for overall damage to start stacking crit? I remember this question being tossed around but I can't find it and don't remember if it came to a conclusion.

I realize of course that this breakpoint is probably at a fairly high value and would require procs/raid buffs to be active, but I'm just wondering if it would be better to start stacking crit at a certain point.
#1577SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
I remember people used to say that crit became more effective than AP for sustained DPS at somewhere around 2000 AP unbuffed. I've never seen any math for it though, so later tonight when I get home from work I'll try to run some numbers to figure it out.
#1578SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I remember people used to say that crit became more effective than AP for sustained DPS at somewhere around 2000 AP unbuffed. I've never seen any math for it though, so later tonight when I get home from work I'll try to run some numbers to figure it out.
I look forward to your results, Dazanna. If you're even remotely close on your memory of 2k AP unbuffed, my gear gemming theory might need to change once I start upgrading this gear.
#1579SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Teer
Seal universal macro

There was a post about macros somewhere in the middle that I digged up to remake my actionbar.
The thing was that the macro should cast SoR if using shields, and SoC/SoB if using a... shirt. It sounded silly but it worked. Well, I read a bit on WoWWiki and discovered that there was a Two-Hand option to use with the [equipped:] modifier.
I tend to respecc a lot - mostly holy on raids, sometimes retribution, and sometimes protection. I pride myself in having sets for all three talent trees that is considered "very good".

So this is what I came up with:
#showtooltip
/cast [modifier:shift,equipped:Shields] Seal of Righteousness; [modifier:shift,equipped:Two-Hand] Seal of Blood; [equipped:Two-Hand] Crusader Strike; [equipped:Shields,equipped:Shirt]Holy Shield; Holy Shock;
The button is assigned to "1" for me. So Shift+1 and using a shield result in SoR. Shift+1 and using a two-hand weapon result in SoB. Just hitting 1 and using a two-hand weapon will result in Crusader Strike. Hitting 1 and having a shield and shirt (shirt there to separate the Protection spell from Holy) result in Holy Shield. And default hitting 1 will result in Holy Shock.


And on a personal note I'm going SSC as ret for the second time on Sunday, seems RL was impressed by my performance and utility (healed on two fights), even if I wasn't
#1580SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Fiola
Let's see if I can get the math right this time ...


7 Str (Picked this value since it translates into 14 AP -> 1 AA DPS)
vs.
7 Crit rating

Assuming DS:
7 Str => 15.4 AP adds
+1,1 auto-attack DPS

Total: +1.1 DPS * (1+ Current Crit Rate)

7 Crit rating adds
+0.32% Crit
Total: +0.32% * Base Auto-attack DPS


There're 2 variables to account for: Crit Rate and your existing Base DPS (damage before crit is factored in). % damage modifiers WF, 2h Weap. Spec, Vengeance, etc. affect Crit/AP roughly equally and will be ignored. I'm also going to assume that SoC/CS are roughly proportional to your auto-attack DPS and can likewise be ignored.


Let's say you have a 126 DPS weapon 2k AP, and 30% crit. Base AA DPS is (126 DPS + 2000/14) = 269 DPS

7 Str adds 1.1 * (1 + 30%) = 1.43 DPS
0.32% adds 0.32% * 269 = 0.86 DPS


The AA DPS where the stats are equal is 1.1 / 0.32% = 344 DPS. With a 126 DPS weapon, you need to add 218 DPS from AP, or 3052 AP, in order for 7 Crit Rating to match 7 Str.


Now consider raid buffs. Kings: +10% Str (and worth +crit). LotP: +5% crit. Battle Shout (+350~ AP?). Unleashed Rage: +10% AP. Flasks/Elixirs, iJotC.

At a glance, raid buffs further increase the value of Str relative to Crit%.



If you want a more accurate break even point, you'd want to calculate out the benefits of AP -> CS (normalization means CS doesn't have the same AP-Crit relation as AA), and perhaps include the DPS added by judgements. (which scale with Crit but not AP)
#1581SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
There's actually a point of inflection calculation on the Graph tab of the spreadsheet ("Calculate Str/Crit POI").

For me personally the POI lies somewhere between 4800 and 5200 AP buffed, LotP makes the biggest difference obviously if you have it ticked on. Given that buffed to the eyeballs I can get ~4100-4200 AP, I don't think I have to worry about regemming for the POI anytime soon.

I've tried different sets of gear and raid buffed, for Kara gear -> T6 the POI seems to lie somewhere between 4300 and 5200 buffed.

Conclusion: Don't bother.
#1582SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bellator
Hey guys, am back from my week away at work. In the whole work life balance thing, work officially crit life for 4000, life died :p

Anyway, have been through the threads i've missed and answered anything pertaining to the spreadsheet etc. If i have missed anything please let me know. I hope to get a new version out in the next few days though this may be delayed to next weekend due to work committments.

Originally Posted by Diraphise View Post
More spreadsheet stuff:

-Ironstriders of Urgency have a listed socket bonus of +3 agi instead of +3 str.
-The 2/3/4 mp5 gems seem to add 8 hit and nothing else.

Could you perhaps also add Falling Star? It's the one stamina gem I do bother using, and I can't seem to give user-added gems a colour.
Will make the changes and add falling star for next version

Originally Posted by Petru View Post
I've been reading these forums on and off for a while, particularly this thread of late but have never had the need to actually post until now. Firstly, I'd like to thank the participants for providing an excellent source of information. Secondly, thanks to Bellator for providing such a brilliant utility.

Onto my reason for posting - I have a question specifically for Bellator and the Upgrade Analysis tab on the spreadsheet. I'm currently wearing the [Arrow-fall Chestguard], which I accept is far from the best available, so I ran the analysis to look at upgrades available. It lists [Lightbringer Breastplate] as being 9.86 DPS increase, yet curiously lists the [Justicar Breastplate] as being a 9.88 DPS increase. This has me confused somewhat, as the Lightbringer boasts 12 Strength, 0.27% crit, 6 +dmg and 1.33% hit over the Justicar while both have three sockets to play with.

Am I missing something obvious here or have I somehow managed to fubar your spreadsheet?
Hey Petru, thanks for the compliment Have had a look at your issue, and i'm unable to figure out whats going wrong. Whilst Lightbringer is less of an upgrade if you are already hit capped without the chestpiece, there is still always a significant difference when I run the analysis. Can I suggest trying to start over. Re-download the latest version and re-try? Sorry I cant be of more help.

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
I'm now working to get my current gear into Bellator's spreadsheet.

I need to input the horseman's helm as a new item, but when I do, and I hit "show details", it doesn't show 3 rows under the helm, but only two.

After some playing around, i can see that this is because the item creation page doesn't have a "b" option. It has r, y, and g. I selected 'g' to see if it would function as blue, but that seems to lead to the above mentioned error.

When I put in r,r,r instead, to test it out, the created item displays all three rows with no issues.
Yeah the spreadsheet accidentally has the 'new' Wotlk green socket instead of blue. (ps there is no 'new' green sockets). Will be fixed in next version. Only issue it causes at the moment is it is impossible to get the socker bonus with a green socket

Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
IMO it's better to manually test the different gear upgrades on the gear selection sheet. The analysis sheet stuffs Str gems into all your gear, which may not be the best choice for dps when considering some socket bonuses.
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
One thing to note is that also screws up socket bonuses, most importantly things with hit. So manually adjust your hit rating to compensate before running item analysis.
Yeah it's true there are limitations to the item analysis. Whilst i think it gives a very good overview of the order of items, manual adjustments to items close to one another in the actual character sheet can show anything that has been lost in calculation. I plan to expand the analysis to include things such as socket bonus / hit etc to try to increase accuracy, but just have to be careful to balance accuracy with time to complete analysis.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Still, according to my guild's calculations, I'd have to be pushing 2500 DPS with salv and 30% thread reduction from talents to pull aggro off our warrior MT in most average fights.
Not really a question I know, but a little fyi, am thinking of putting a TPS calculator in the model as well

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Thanks Cunning, thats just what I needed.

Assuming 8 PPM for SoC gives you an extra 4 procs of JoW per minute, that's another ~25 Mp5.
Another fyi, JoW gain from SoC is currently included in the dps spreadsheet, so anyone thinking they have to add it manually, no need.

Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
DPS Spreadsheet Bug:

The Khorium Champion shows a +hit of 27, it should be +37.
Cheers, will be fixed next version

Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Oh of course you would always attack from behind; what I wanted to know was if the spreadsheet took this into account.

If the Spreadsheet assumed you attack from the front - then any "Expertise" would negate both dodges AND parry's. In reality you always stand behind your target; so "Expertise" only negates dodges. If this were the case then the spreadsheet would be effectively doubling the DPS value of Expertise rating - if you see what I mean. :P

If you are sure the spreadsheet assumes you are standing behind you target (and can't be parried) then this isn't an issue and the spreadsheet is accurate.
Originally Posted by Foofu View Post

.....Information regarding bringing in +Hit to the Item Analysis
Hey, thanks for input, will reply in more detail a little later when i have more time.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
U
You'll find your personal "Strength Equivalency" values at the top of the first page after you configure the gear/raid buffs to match yours.
Originally Posted by little_ramona View Post
Thanks! Time to confront my fear of spreadsheets.
Ramona, just as a little added note, after setting gear/buffs etc, you need to run "Graph Calculation" on the "Graph" tab for the Strength Equivalency to show, and then re-run it everytime you change gear to get updated numbers as this basically pulls data from the graph.

Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
As spreadsheets go, this one is very well made and extremely easy to use. I've used spreadsheets for other classes, and never seen one I liked as much as this.
Thankyou, after a gruelling week at work this made me

Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
[Cloak of Fiends] should be added to the spreadsheet, as far as I can tell it's currently the best cloak in the game if you are hit capped.
I thought i did a thorough ZA sweep adding everthing, but seemed to miss this. Thanks. Will add it in next version

I can confirm the spreadsheet does work as if you are standing behind your target

Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Edit: And in case it hasn't been said enough, TYVM for your hard work on this spreadsheet Bellator. It IS much appreciated by the members of this thread.
Thank you kindly, it has been my pleasure
#1583SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Valerys
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
Hmmm....is it just me, or does the spreadsheet not check to make sure you're meeting the gem requirements for meta gems? At least, that seems to be the case with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
It doesn't, which is also why it's better to simply manually check for gear upgrades from individual items.
#1584SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2orkyben
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I can confirm the spreadsheet does work as if you are standing behind your target
Awesome. Tyvm <3
#1585SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Why are you shooting for that belt [Belt of Seething Fury]? The [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is mo better imo. The expertise REALLY cuts down on dodges.
Because my guild no longer runs SSC/TK, and while expertise is good, the difference in dps on the spreadsheet is minimal (due to seething fury having high ap + haste) and not worth the massive amounts of gold required to pay off some guild that is less progressed to let me get dibs on that belt.
#1586SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Theras
Tomorrow I'm going to download the latest version and do a sweep of the entire item list to do the following:
  1. Organize by item level, while maintaining the existing plate/mail/leather and pve/pvp divisions.
  2. Correct spelling errors.
  3. Correct any stat errors I can find.
And email the lot of it to Bellator. Since I can't really contribute anything mathematically to the spreadsheet, I can at least help out aesthetically.
#1587SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feanortm
Hello, this is my first post here (though I've been following the ret thread here since the one that reached 100+ pages).
I have always been ret.
Now, I have some questions regarding my gear and ways to improve it.
You can see my armory from my profile. I will be replacing the shoulders with [Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate]
Not sure what cloak and ring slot 1 armory is showing, but i got Aran's cloak and use revered Violet Eye ring for Karazhan.

Yes, I know my hit is too low, will be correcting that.
Hit rating aside, what piece can I take that would be the biggest improvement (I have access to badge, Kara and pvp gear) ?
Most of the other badge plate has way too much hit to be an upgrade from what I have.

Also, when raiding, should I be chugging mana pots and using consecrate and exorcism, or just SoC, CS and judge with haste/strength pots?

On the last Kara run I scored first place on damage, even with the lowish hit i had.
#1588SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ragnor
Originally Posted by Feanortm View Post
..hat piece can I take that would be the biggest improvement (I have access to badge, Kara and pvp gear) ?
The easiest way to tell is to enter your current gear, gems, enchant and buffs you normally have into bellator's spreadsheet. After that make a list of upgrades and just try switching them in one at a time and looking at the results.
#1589SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feanortm
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
The easiest way to tell is to enter your current gear, gems, enchant and buffs you normally have into bellator's spreadsheet. After that make a list of upgrades and just try switching them in one at a time and looking at the results.
I did, but it's showing some weird results. Plus I think I noticed some gear missing. Will mess around with it a bit more.

Macro question: are there any other, besides cast judgement, reseal SoC, that will be helpful for pve?
#1590SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Feanortm View Post
I did, but it's showing some weird results. Plus I think I noticed some gear missing. Will mess around with it a bit more.

Macro question: are there any other, besides cast judgement, reseal SoC, that will be helpful for pve?
If you're not hitcapped already.. the dps increase will be extremely better than pieces without. I like the badge gear for the fact that they take care of all my +hit in such a small amount of pieces meaning I can use better pieces in other slots.

Plus they have a lot of stam so when I stopped using the helm, I gemmed it with even more stam in case I ever needed a huge boost. Its pretty easy to know how much dps you do at 0 health
#1591SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Aurius
Seem to have hit a brick wall with my DPS recently. I can hit 850 on Kael attempts (We are still learnig him, getting into phase 4 consistently) but regardless of flask/elixir/haste pot use I seem to not get much outside of that 850ish mark. Will try a few of the spreadsheets, maybe ive hit a gear issue and just arent getting any lucky drops.
#1592SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feanortm
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Seem to have hit a brick wall with my DPS recently. I can hit 850 on Kael attempts (We are still learnig him, getting into phase 4 consistently) but regardless of flask/elixir/haste pot use I seem to not get much outside of that 850ish mark. Will try a few of the spreadsheets, maybe ive hit a gear issue and just arent getting any lucky drops.
DOn't claim that I know much, but will try:
Are you really using Bladesfist's Breadth and Libram of Righteous Power in TK? They are easily replacable by better items.
Your gear should be good enough for more than 850. Are you in a melee group?
If you are using haste pots, are you having mana issues, despite SA healing?
ALso, you are over the hit cap, change the head enchant to [Glyph of the Outcast]
#1593SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Aurius
I am finally allowed to remain in th emelee group with an enhance shammy and warrior
I use haste pots when able to but on some fights not as much as id like.

I know about the Libram from Heroic Blood furnace. I am allergic to pugs and its like pulling teeth to get the needed healer and tank online together to get certain dungeons like BF ran. Started pugging recently normal Slab for the lower city rep. I should have the better enchant in a week or so.
Bladefists Breadth yes. Only trinkets I have seen better is the Crusade Darkmoon card, (Expensive and hard to find on my blasted server) And tsunami talisman. I am also saving up the badges to perhaps get one of the battlemasters trinkets.
#1594SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Avitus
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
I know about the Libram from Heroic Blood furnace. I am allergic to pugs and its like pulling teeth to get the needed healer and tank online together to get certain dungeons like BF ran.
..


I am also saving up the badges to perhaps get one of the battlemasters trinkets.
Just convince some friends or guildies to run BF heroic up to the first boss on a daily/frequent basis. It takes about 15 mins up to the first boss and to kill him with a focused group.

Oh, and Battlemaster's Trinkets are crap for damage.
#1595SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2galzohar
Remember latency doesn't really play a role when it comes to timing HoW/slam, as if you know your latency is 200ms you can click it 200ms before. However if your latency is 150-250ms, you have to click it 150ms before to be safe, and lose 0-100ms (50ms on average) every time. So the time lost should be dependant on your ping's variance, not your actual ping, assuming the swing timer is actually working properly. Any time lost beyond ping variance/2 would be because you simply can't click an ability at perfect accuracy, but with a countdown bar moving your human reaction time becomes a non-factor - it's not that you have to react to "HoW NOW!" (optimally no less than 0.2s), but rather "HoW in 3... 2... 1... now" (which would normally be a lot less than the former). Of course it may collide with other global cooldowns but I suppose you should first check if HoW is worth using in *any* kind of situation before you check if it's worth using over other abilities, as even if delaying other abilities for it is not worthwhile, it might still be worthwhile to use it every time you had just attacked, hadn't cast any GCD ability in the last 1.5s and won't need to cast one in the next 0.5s (or just delay it by up to 0.5s).

Considering all that, it would take more than the rough guestimation I've seen here to rule out HoW useage. Although you should also consider the lack of mana efficiency which might make you have to choose between this and concecration, however it still takes more math to figure out which would be the better burnoff as HoW is more mana efficient but concecration doesn't waste 0.5s+ of autoattacks.

Overall going back to being rough, with 1200 HoW and 30% crit it'll do 3120 dps for 0.5s seconds... I don't think your autoattack can come close, not even your total dps so delaying specials would still be worth it for HoW if you have the mana and perform it perfectly. However waste 1/2 a second of autoattack and it's down to 1560 dps, which still may or may not be higher than your autoattack dps and/nor your full dps. At the end it really depends on how much time you waste on casting a HoW, which is very personal (I've seen great fury warriors say they cannot perform a good slam rotation whatsoever, while others put very nice dps with it).
#1596SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feanortm
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Bladefists Breadth yes. Only trinkets I have seen better is the Crusade Darkmoon card, (Expensive and hard to find on my blasted server) And tsunami talisman. I am also saving up the badges to perhaps get one of the battlemasters trinkets.
I believe [Abacus of Violent Odds] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller] will both be upgrades over Bladefist's Breadth. You can choose between them, depending on whether you need more crit or AP. The first works quite well with Heroism and haste potions.

You can get both from non-heroic instances.
#1597SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Just convince some friends or guildies to run BF heroic up to the first boss on a daily/frequent basis. It takes about 15 mins up to the first boss and to kill him with a focused group.

Oh, and Battlemaster's Trinkets are crap for damage.
You won't get as much DPS out of a Battlemaster trinket, but the On Use effect can be very helpful. On any sort of survival fight (Naj, Archimonde, etc.) that extra health can be a life saver, and staying alive is the best method of upping your DPS.

As a pure DPS trinket you'll be better off getting an Abacus or DST, but Battlemaster trinkets are far from worthless.
#1598SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Larhia
hey ladys and gentleman

i've read this threat now for time to time to get a better knowledge of playing a ret paladin in raids.
we are raiding at this time ssc & tk , vashj/kael/alar left in these instances.
i want to do my very best to raise my dps in raids. at this time i can do 800-1100 dps, belongs to encounter.
im using flask of relentless attacks, str buff food and haste pots.
my gear is the following:
The World of Warcraft Armory
( im still working on the belt next items i want to bit on, are helmet from voidreaver and hydross shoulders, also season 3 gloves are in work)

the rotation i use is simple, cs every time its ready and same with judgement. (im using soc)
most of the time i'am in melee grp, and get windfury / str- / agi totem / ap shout / drums etc.
does anyone have any sugestions to optimize equip and/or buffs or anything else ?

p.s.: sorry for stupid question, but is there anywhere a "how to" for the bellator spread sheet ? dont really know what to do :P

thx for help
#1599SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feanortm
Question: With my current gear, can i do ZA ?
#1600SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2orkyben
Originally Posted by Larhia View Post
hey ladys and gentleman

i've read this threat now for time to time to get a better knowledge of playing a ret paladin in raids.
we are raiding at this time ssc & tk , vashj/kael/alar left in these instances.
i want to do my very best to raise my dps in raids. at this time i can do 800-1100 dps, belongs to encounter.
im using flask of relentless attacks, str buff food and haste pots.
my gear is the following:
The World of Warcraft Armory
( im still working on the belt next items i want to bit on, are helmet from voidreaver and hydross shoulders, also season 3 gloves are in work)

the rotation i use is simple, cs every time its ready and same with judgement. (im using soc)
most of the time i'am in melee grp, and get windfury / str- / agi totem / ap shout / drums etc.
does anyone have any sugestions to optimize equip and/or buffs or anything else ?

p.s.: sorry for stupid question, but is there anywhere a "how to" for the bellator spread sheet ? dont really know what to do :P

thx for help

Flask of Relentless Assault, Roasted Clefthoof and Haste Potions (mana permitting) are the best choices. Could always add in a "Scroll of Strength" or something, usually fairly cheap on the AH - I have a bank full of them! Obviously if your not in the "Windfury" group, crack out a sharpening stone.

On the subject of your helmet, don't take the one from VR. An excessive amount of +Hit - and you seem to be nearly on the cap already, and it doesn't have a meta gem! The 12 Agi + 3% Increased Crit damage gem is a HUGE dps increase. Your current helm is far superior.

Hydross shoulders are sexy, use them myself.

For your belt, maybe the [Red Belt of Battle]? Someone in your guild should have the recipe.

Attack cycle, thats pretty much it. CS and Judgement whenever they are off cooldown. Make sure you use the cycle on the first post in this thread, using the 9 second judgement. Use a macro to re-apply your seal and just watch your GCD carefully.

Don't use SoC though! Your a Blood Elf and have been blessed with the glory of Seal of Blood! Use it - its a huge increase over SoC - and ofc you will regain mana from Spiritual Attunement.

=)
#1601SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2orkyben
Originally Posted by Feanortm View Post
Question: With my current gear, can i do ZA ?
Shouldn't be an problem, I'd suggest getting a little more +Hit though to push you towards the cap.

Maybe change your helm enchant? :o
#1602SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feanortm
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Shouldn't be an problem, I'd suggest getting a little more +Hit though to push you towards the cap.

Maybe change your helm enchant? :o
I am using the revered Violet Eye ring instead of horseman's for raids, so I am somehwere around 70 hit rating. I'd hate to change the head enchant because i will lose some AP and mana (I have to watch I don't go oom on bosses even while chugging super mana potions).
Thanks.
#1603SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Feanortm View Post
I am using the revered Violet Eye ring instead of horseman's for raids, so I am somehwere around 70 hit rating. I'd hate to change the head enchant because i will lose some AP and mana (I have to watch I don't go oom on bosses even while chugging super mana potions).
Thanks.
+hit means more dps and it outdoes any other stat increase by a mile (well, on par with expertise, kinda)

Could be as easy as just putting another +hit ring.. or a few gems.
#1604SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
As funny as it sounds, its a good idea. Even if you think of a different effect for a new pally synergy group-buff (haste sounds nice), im sure people would love getting their own pally wings!
Personally I think the group buff that Ret needed that could have solved the " Do you deserve a melee spot " It's simple 1/3/5% per stack of Vengeance to the group, the 5% to the group is very much equal to Windfury, the glowing hands would be visible and people would realize they had it. It would not turn into an OP issue in PvP becuase you still have to stack 3 to create your highest damage possible.

Best case possible is 1/3/5% + .50/.75/1.0 % Haste, you can tweak the haste numbers but the reason I left them at that level is they would not hurt Alliance based on the SoC PPM nor would it be an incredible buff that made peole scream OP. Overall it would be approximately a 6-7% + 2% Sanctity aura that is Borderline what you get out of SoE + WF.

I think a group AW would be asking for a lot but a group Vengeance that required stacks and was as Deep in Retribution as it is would not be abusable but would be clearly a great melee tool.
#1605SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Larhia
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Flask of Relentless Assault, Roasted Clefthoof and Haste Potions (mana permitting) are the best choices. Could always add in a "Scroll of Strength" or something, usually fairly cheap on the AH - I have a bank full of them! Obviously if your not in the "Windfury" group, crack out a sharpening stone.
im lucky to be nearly everytime in windfury group. most time i dont have to much mana problems so that i can use the haste potions because of JoW.

Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
For your belt, maybe the [Red Belt of Battle]? Someone in your guild should have the recipe.
grml, since we are raiding this pattern never dropped. and other guilds/players who have this one are selling the nethervortex for a very high amount of gold.

On the subject of my helmet, i just want to get rid of karazhan trinket but dont want to switch my gems into +hit. thats why i thought about getting VR helmet.
#1606SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
Ok, so I'm posting here wondering now. -chuckles.-

I'm not sure my character is linked through the side bar, but anyway.

Having trouble breaking the 700DPS (sustained) mark, something I am not happy about. Part of it is, our guild has no actual dedicated melee group, with the exception of an Enhancement Shaman, a Rogue and Me, for our active 25-mans.

In any case, another issue, is finding a macro to do my judge/seal mechanic in my DPS cycle, can anyone help with that?

Also, of course, gear upgrades available? We've recently started raiding 25-mans with the guild i'm in, 2/2 Gruul's and One boss down in TK and SSC (The loot hogs.) Our ZA team (Which I am not on.) Is 3/6 ZA (yay for one night a week ZA runs.) And I have no access to Kara, as our Kara nights are work nights.

In any case, in case my armory link is not working in the side bar.

This should be it
#1607SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
I have been using an itemvalue addon that determine the worth of an item but I'm going to say where to place ArP and Haste vs everything else this is still something I can't decide for sure where to leave haste and move to ArP or if I should keep stacking ArP.

With my current gear I have thought about dropping 2 [Band of Devastation] for [Stormrage Signet Ring] and [Signet of Primal Wrath] Anyone else coming up with some outstanding results in the department of ArP vs Haste?
#1608SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by Samiel View Post
Ok, so I'm posting here wondering now. -chuckles.-

I'm not sure my character is linked through the side bar, but anyway.

Having trouble breaking the 700DPS (sustained) mark, something I am not happy about. Part of it is, our guild has no actual dedicated melee group, with the exception of an Enhancement Shaman, a Rogue and Me, for our active 25-mans.

In any case, another issue, is finding a macro to do my judge/seal mechanic in my DPS cycle, can anyone help with that?

Also, of course, gear upgrades available? We've recently started raiding 25-mans with the guild i'm in, 2/2 Gruul's and One boss down in TK and SSC (The loot hogs.) Our ZA team (Which I am not on.) Is 3/6 ZA (yay for one night a week ZA runs.) And I have no access to Kara, as our Kara nights are work nights.

In any case, in case my armory link is not working in the side bar.

This should be it
Your armory shows you as being protection spec and in tanking gear. But it sounds like you're pretty much limited to pvp gear and heroic badge rewards. If you get Bellator's spreadsheet, you can use the itemcalc to see what items that are available to you are upgrades.
#1609SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3EboJenkins
My paladin was in epic healing gear, but my raid is letting me go ret since we can start healing kara with only two healers. We are not far in the progression game, I understand. To me it seems the core stats for a ret pally appear after kara, so the gear available to me isn't awesome but it can do the job. I recently got Despair as my first ret weapon, the Str is nice and the proc is huge. I decided to put Executioner on it, but I understand that after Hit and Str, haste is one of the most beneficial stats for a ret pally, especially a horde pally with Seal of Blood.

Was I wrong to put Executioner on it? I decided to do so because I figure ignoring armor will up my white hits significantly, and that in turn will also up my seal damage. Should I have gone for mongoose? I'm at 21% crit with only a few epics/blues and mostly greens. I lol'd at Crusader (+60 Str at level 70?) or the +20 str.

My many thanks to you masters of all things great! I read most of the thread and I'm astounded! :-D
#1610SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
The difference in dps between Mongoose and Executioner are fairly minimal. That being said, I will go with Mongoose since your mileage may vary with Executioner depending on how much armor penetration you have already, raid debuffs on the boss, and the armor value of the boss itself. Mongoose will affect 100% of your damage while Executioner will affect roughly 70%.

In your case it'd be better to use Savagery since your AP is still relatively low, and increasing your AP is the most efficient way to increase your damage after being hit capped. Finally, it'd behoove you to use Bellator's gear spreadsheet to see the rough dps approximations of each enchant with your current gear.
#1611SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teer
I had some strange bug happening to me last week in SSC. I was retribution but had to fill in for a tank that was late so I jumped into tank gear and tanked adds on Hydross. Since I wasn't protection specced and didn't have Holy Shield I used the [Libram of Avengement] to get Vengeance up easier. But after I had judged Wisdom on Hydross and just stood and auto attacked without using Judgement the buff from the libram kept refreshing itself. And the buff was active, I checked my character screen.

Here is a screenshot of the bug. The buff from the libram last 5 seconds, and Judgement has 8 sec cooldown, so Judgement cooldown can't be ready while the buff is active.
#1612SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
I had some strange bug happening to me last week in SSC. I was retribution but had to fill in for a tank that was late so I jumped into tank gear and tanked adds on Hydross. Since I wasn't protection specced and didn't have Holy Shield I used the [Libram of Avengement] to get Vengeance up easier. But after I had judged Wisdom on Hydross and just stood and auto attacked without using Judgement the buff from the libram kept refreshing itself. And the buff was active, I checked my character screen.

Here is a screenshot of the bug. The buff from the libram last 5 seconds, and Judgement has 8 sec cooldown, so Judgement cooldown can't be ready while the buff is active.
That bug has been around for about 2 patches now? Each auto-attack refreshes the judgement, which apparently triggers the Libram's effect.

A slightly related effect is that auto-attack on a judged mob will trigger spell damage charges on the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. I've recently discovered that it can also trigger the damage in Zul'Jin Phase 3, which is rather painful.
#1613SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
Your armory shows you as being protection spec and in tanking gear. But it sounds like you're pretty much limited to pvp gear and heroic badge rewards. If you get Bellator's spreadsheet, you can use the itemcalc to see what items that are available to you are upgrades.

Ah, I can't use Bellator's Spreadsheet, I have no Excel. I see Armory hasn't updated yet.
#1614SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
That bug has been around for about 2 patches now? Each auto-attack refreshes the judgement, which apparently triggers the Libram's effect.

A slightly related effect is that auto-attack on a judged mob will trigger spell damage charges on the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. I've recently discovered that it can also trigger the damage in Zul'Jin Phase 3, which is rather painful.
Could be the effect of Vindication? Not that Im complaining about having the 80 spell dmg while raiding =D
#1615SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shikari
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Could be the effect of Vindication? Not that Im complaining about having the 80 spell dmg while raiding =D
It isn't the effect of Vindication which triggers On-Spellcast Trinkets. Auto-Attacks, which refresh your own Judgement on the target, are capable of triggering Trinkets. I'm Holy Paladin for myself and use [Tome of Fiery Redemption] for farming. If I judge my target with any kind of Seal and the Tome hasn't triggered yet, it can trigger from any Auto Attack refreshing the Judgement.
One thing to notice is: Refreshing a Judgement is a Cast you made (Whysoever). On the Kael'thas encounter when I judge my Seal of Wisdom on Thaladred the Darkener (Who AoE-Silences, if someone comes close to him), I can't refresh my Judgement by autoattacking him until the Silence has worn off.
#1616SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Could be the effect of Vindication? Not that Im complaining about having the 80 spell dmg while raiding =D
It's both, actually. Vindication and refreshing a judgement will both stack up the spell dmg portion of that trinket.
#1617SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gwen
Originally Posted by Shikari View Post
One thing to notice is: Refreshing a Judgement is a Cast you made (Whysoever). On the Kael'thas encounter when I judge my Seal of Wisdom on Thaladred the Darkener (Who AoE-Silences, if someone comes close to him), I can't refresh my Judgement by autoattacking him until the Silence has worn off.
This is very noticable on the zul'jin encounter in phase 3 (eagle), where a refreshment of your own seal (light, wisdom, however not sure about crusader) will trigger the 1250 damage on spellcast effect. In general the effect of these mechanics brings me to question if there would be any 'on spellcast' trinckets or items with no hidden cooldown, for they might provide an interesting addition in dps when it would be possible to judge light or wisdom.
#1618SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pazgaz
I didn't notice it mentioned before, but vindication is considered a spell cast. It triggers the SP part of DM:C

Edit:

two posts up. I'm blind.

Last edited by Pazgaz : 01/23/08 at 11:06 AM.
#1619SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
The Judgement refresh seems to trigger Mark of Vindication, too. Tested it while doing my dailies last night, and noticed a Mark proc from auto-attack. (no spells/abilities were used)

And yes, the Zul'Jin phase 3 damage sucks. I find myself dropping out 15~ seconds before the phase change so the judgement can fade. (Or should I just not judge at the beginning? Choices...)
#1620SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lopaka
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The Judgement refresh seems to trigger Mark of Vindication, too. Tested it while doing my dailies last night, and noticed a Mark proc from auto-attack. (no spells/abilities were used)

And yes, the Zul'Jin phase 3 damage sucks. I find myself dropping out 15~ seconds before the phase change so the judgement can fade. (Or should I just not judge at the beginning? Choices...)
I normally back out at the start of phase 3 and just avoid tornadoes till the judgments drop off the boss, then get in and dps when I can. Our shaman drops WF, Earth Elemental and a Searing totem, which also helps a ton. (And CS doesn't get you zapped, which is awesome)
#1621SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feanortm
Speaking of Judgements... I've noticed in heroics, on mobs who use spell reflect, my Judgement and SoC go right through it without causing any damage to me, while, example, a mage can kill himself with fireballs. Do Judgement and SoC count as a melee hit in those cases?
#1622SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
I normally back out at the start of phase 3 and just avoid tornadoes till the judgments drop off the boss, then get in and dps when I can. Our shaman drops WF, Earth Elemental and a Searing totem, which also helps a ton. (And CS doesn't get you zapped, which is awesome)
For the two kills I've been on, we're pretty pressed for DPS on Phase 3, whereas Phase 2 is just tank/spank. As such, I figure I'd lose the DPS on the phase where it's not needed as much. (Alternatively, if I'm plain unlucky with getting melee face-time due to the @#^%@#^@^ tornadoes, I could just leave the Judgement up so the raid's damage is higher)


Originally Posted by Feanortm View Post
Speaking of Judgements... I've noticed in heroics, on mobs who use spell reflect, my Judgement and SoC go right through it without causing any damage to me, while, example, a mage can kill himself with fireballs. Do Judgement and SoC count as a melee hit in those cases?
SoR goes through spell reflect shields too. JoR does not.

Based on that behavior, I think JoC is considered a "melee attack" that uses spell hit and deals Holy damage. It also triggers both types of DM:Crusade buffs... so it's just a very unique ability. = P

(HoW also goes through spell reflect shields. That one is probably considered a ranged attack too, like Arcane Shot)
#1623SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
Well according to a post by Hortus Judgement is considered to be a melee ability for various reasons (why you can't use it while BoP'd). This doesn't explain why we can't use it while silenced though, which I've always found odd. Judgement is just one of those strange things that behaves oddly depending on whats going on.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 01/23/08 at 4:47 PM.
#1624SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feanortm
Interesting... Thanks for the info.
#1625SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sunduranin
I'm raiding BT as ret and while looking over upgrades to some key items, most of whats availible has armor ignore as a stat. Ive yet to find a source that states whether or not seal of command procs are effected by armor. I assume crusader strike is being the nature of tooltip, but can anyone confirm.
#1626SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
EboJenkins
Originally Posted by Sunduranin View Post
I'm raiding BT as ret and while looking over upgrades to some key items, most of whats availible has armor ignore as a stat. Ive yet to find a source that states whether or not seal of command procs are effected by armor. I assume crusader strike is being the nature of tooltip, but can anyone confirm.

Seal of Command procs are determined directly by your white damage. Your white damage will increase with ArP, so yes SoComm will get a boost from armor penetration, but indirectly.
Sorry, Ive been told this is incorrect. See below for details.

I'm still curious as to where ArP falls on the scale of worth for a ret pally though, I lack the time and patience to test it myself :-D

Last edited by EboJenkins : 01/24/08 at 12:06 PM. Reason: incorrect information
#1627SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pazgaz
I was under the impression that SoC damage is determined by your unmitigated white damage (shown on your character screen). ArP makes the amount mitigated by the mob's/boss' armor smaller, but it does nothing to SoC.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
#1628SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saabik
Originally Posted by Pazgaz View Post
I was under the impression that SoC damage is determined by your unmitigated white damage (shown on your character screen). ArP makes the amount mitigated by the mob's/boss' armor smaller, but it does nothing to SoC.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe this is correct, from my experience. If this were the case it would calculate the targets armor rating, too, as armor pen is simply a - modifier on a target's armor - not a damage calculation itself. This would mean it calculates the targets armor, which we know isn't used in SoCo.
#1629SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sunduranin
Thanks for the replies, how does this figure in for CS dmg then, i notice a trend of CS hitting for roughly 10% more than melee white, and never seen a noncrit hit for more than my listed melee dmg in raids, that makes me believe it is therefor affected by armor and gains from ArP, is this correct?

in the end i think Ilvl for Ilvl haste would be better then Arp for ret
#1630SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Seal of command is 70% of your normal weapon damage. This would imply that modifiers such as armor penetration are not factored. Meanwhile, Crusader Strike is 110% of your weapon damage and thus modified by armor penetration. Armor penetration is still a pretty good stat, but it's somewhat limited since it doesn't apply to all of your damage and is dependent on raid debuffs, boss armor value, and how much of the stat that you have.
#1631SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sunduranin
well, based on that, ill aim more toward the haste plate pieces in BT over the ArP ones. Thanks for all the replies and feedback
#1632SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Bear in mind that haste won't be as effective for you as it would for a Horde paladin since it only affects your white damage.
#1633SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pazgaz
ArP affects white hits and CS.
Haste affects white hits. With faster auto attacks you gain a bit more from judgements (JoL, JoW)
It's not that simple and cannot be solved by: "I'll go with haste plate". It depends a lot on the armor of the boss and the amount of ArP you can stack (without gimping your other stats too much).
The above goes for Alliance Paladins.
#1634SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by EboJenkins View Post
Seal of Command procs are determined directly by your white damage. Your white damage will increase with ArP, so yes SoComm will get a boost from armor penetration, but indirectly.
This is actually completely incorrect and misleading.

As others have stated, SoC is based on "unmitigated weapon damage" * 70% * Holy damage modifiers, therefore ArP has no effect on SoC at all.


Originally Posted by Sunduranin View Post
Thanks for the replies, how does this figure in for CS dmg then, i notice a trend of CS hitting for roughly 10% more than melee white, and never seen a noncrit hit for more than my listed melee dmg in raids, that makes me believe it is therefor affected by armor and gains from ArP, is this correct?

Since CS is physical damage, yes it's affected by ArP.

As a rule of thumb:

Is it physical damage? Then it's mitigated by armor! Therefore it is affected by ArP. Examples: White hits, "Windfury Procs" (white hits), Crusader Strike

Is it holy damage? Then it's unmitigated by armor! Therefore ArP has no effect on it. Examples: SoC, JoC, Consecration, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath


Originally Posted by Sunduranin View Post
well, based on that, ill aim more toward the haste plate pieces in BT over the ArP ones. Thanks for all the replies and feedback
It's unfortunate to say that for us alliance paladins both ArP and haste are of relatively low worth, when compared to traditional stats such as Str/Crit.

That's not to say that they're "bad" since they still offer small dps upgrades, but similar to spelldamage, the real question becomes "how much damage is X amount of ArP/Haste/spelldamage worth compared to Y amount of Str/Crit".

I highly recommend going over the spreadsheet linked on the first page, adjusting it to your own gear and then running the graph calculation to see which stat is more worthwhile for you.

It should read out something like (Hit if you're not capped) > Weapon Expertise (unfortunately missing itemisation here really) > Str > Crit > Agi > AP > ArP > Haste > Spelldamage, for alliance paladins.


My general advice is to aim for pure stats heavy items, though not neglecting the off piece here and there of high level ArmPen/Haste item which could prove an overall upgrade. Use a "value is the sum of its parts" mentality basically.
#1635SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CrK
Sorry, you'll think im a noob but I play in spanish so i dont know in the table whats GDC when youre talking about rotations.

Thk anoyone who can tell me
#1636SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feanortm
Originally Posted by CrK View Post
Sorry, you'll think im a noob but I play in spanish so i dont know in the table whats GDC when youre talking about rotations.

Thk anoyone who can tell me
GCD is Global Cooldown, a 1.5 second period after you use a spell. You cannot cast other spells in that period (hence the cooldown name).
#1637SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
can anyone show where swiftsteel shoulders rank in the item calc portion as i cant do a user inputed item it just crashes.

It ranks them currently below everything and i think they are really good, and it doesnt show that they are.
#1638SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arienal
Would anyone be able to check out my gear, talent specc and offer me any advice about either?
Some of my items are limited by bad luck in drops, and I`m working towards the crafted Bsing swords.
Mostly curious about my talent specc, and what i can change about it.
I`m only really concerned with PvE at the moment and while I do arena it is not really very seriously.
#1639SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3whut.
Originally Posted by Arienal View Post
Would anyone be able to check out my gear, talent specc and offer me any advice about either?
Some of my items are limited by bad luck in drops, and I`m working towards the crafted Bsing swords.
Mostly curious about my talent specc, and what i can change about it.
I`m only really concerned with PvE at the moment and while I do arena it is not really very seriously.
Season 3 ret gloves are currently the best in the game. You need to go pick these up, also work on getting the Heroic BF libram, or at least something you can get a benefit from.

I'm hoping you're not using SoC as a BE for PvE DPS.
#1640SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
@Bellator: As I was playing with gear in spreadsheet, I think it would be nice if you could include WE racials in it. If I as human use Sword or Mace, I should have get 5 Expertise points.

@all: I wonder about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. Many fights today needs me to run away, stop hitting for some time etc. Do not you have problems from loosing buffs stacks? Do you use it situationally only at fights without hit interruptions?
#1641SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by pvita View Post
@all: I wonder about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. Many fights today needs me to run away, stop hitting for some time etc. Do not you have problems from loosing buffs stacks? Do you use it situationally only at fights without hit interruptions?
This is definitely a significant problem with it. I recommend having a backup trinket for the fights where you know you're not going to be able to keep it stacked up. Those 10 seconds go by fast.
#1642SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Carpathia
Originally Posted by pvita View Post
If I as human use Sword or Mace, I should have get 5 Expertise points.
You can also manually add the WE racial. Just change the value of WE at Base Information (L17) to 5 if a sword or mace is equiped.
#1643SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Hmmm a small option at the top to select which race and have the correct base stats + racials reflected would be great.
#1644SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Carpathia View Post
You can also manually add the WE racial. Just change the value of WE at Base Information (L17) to 5 if a sword or mace is equiped.
If you add 5 to the front page, it will keep that extra 5 expertise for all weapons and not help when you are trying to compare say an axe to a sword. What I have done is go to Format -> Sheet -> Unhide and unhide the DPS sheet. What you can do is go down to the weapons section and add 20 exp rating to all the maces and swords. This will carry over to running the gear comparison say if you are comparing soul cleaver to a s3 mace or whatever.

Hope this helps =)
#1645SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sorry
I'm currently not raiding and our enhancement shaman left for other shores and I've been been offered his spot for my shaman alt. Now my problem is that I'd like to start raiding again but I was waiting for a spot for my ret paladin into who I put a lot of time already.
I was wondering whether I could have a point in arguing with more raid utility with the paladin than the shaman.
So long story short, for a raidgroup with neither a ret paladin nor an enhancement shaman, which class would be more beneficial to the raid?

What do you think?
#1646SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seventity
I have a question, one thing popped few days ago on my guild forum, where they were trying to make best possible 25-man group setup. In their idea for max raid dps, it's better to have a warrior/enh/druid/rogue/rogue in meele group instead of warrior/enh/druid/ret/rogue. According to their plan, retribution paladin is placed in tank group with BM hunter and another feral druid.

Can anyone confirm that such setup will provide more benefit for overall raid dps considering similar level of gear for everyone?
#1647SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
I'm currently not raiding and our enhancement shaman left for other shores and I've been been offered his spot for my shaman alt. Now my problem is that I'd like to start raiding again but I was waiting for a spot for my ret paladin into who I put a lot of time already.
I was wondering whether I could have a point in arguing with more raid utility with the paladin than the shaman.
So long story short, for a raidgroup with neither a ret paladin nor an enhancement shaman, which class would be more beneficial to the raid?

What do you think?
Well here are the benefits of both:

Ret Paladin:
Raid: Boss Judgements: Mana, Health, Crit
Raid: Extra Blessing
Group: +dmg aura
Raid: Emergency Lay on Hands
Wipe Protection: Divine Intervention

Shaman:
Group Totem buffs
Group Unleashed Rage
Group Heroism/Bloodrage
Wipe Protection: Ankh

I would lean towards bringing a Retpally simply because their skills enhance the total raid more than a shammy. Now, your personal DPS as well as the DPS of the melee is going to be severely nerfed due to the lack of WF and totems. It depends if your raid has better geared casters than melee I suppose. Shamans and Paladins are both support classes.
#1648SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ayreon
Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
I'm currently not raiding and our enhancement shaman left for other shores and I've been been offered his spot for my shaman alt. Now my problem is that I'd like to start raiding again but I was waiting for a spot for my ret paladin into who I put a lot of time already.
I was wondering whether I could have a point in arguing with more raid utility with the paladin than the shaman.
So long story short, for a raidgroup with neither a ret paladin nor an enhancement shaman, which class would be more beneficial to the raid?

What do you think?
The enhancement shaman.

Just WF for melee blows anything a paladin can provide out of the water, including the (very often not applicable) 3 judgements on a boss.
#1649SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
I think you guys are ignoring the fact that a shaman doesn't have to be enhancement to drop windfury and strength totems.

Granted, its not quite ideal to have a resto shaman in the melee group, but if his mana tide isn't needed elsewhere, all you're really losing by him not being enhancement is Unleashed Rage. Plus, what if there's only one or two other paladins in the raid? I've often found that having less than 3 paladins in a raid can be a problem with regard to blessings.

My point is just that if you have to choose between an enhancement shaman and retribution paladin, I think it would help to know how many other paladins/shamans there are in the raid.
#1650SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Seventity View Post
I have a question, one thing popped few days ago on my guild forum, where they were trying to make best possible 25-man group setup. In their idea for max raid dps, it's better to have a warrior/enh/druid/rogue/rogue in meele group instead of warrior/enh/druid/ret/rogue. According to their plan, retribution paladin is placed in tank group with BM hunter and another feral druid.

Can anyone confirm that such setup will provide more benefit for overall raid dps considering similar level of gear for everyone?
There was a post made by madmardigan somewhere back in this thread doing the math. The result was that a ret paladin not in the melee group had to do 65% of a non-melee group rogue's damage in order to break even. So if your rogue vastly outplays/outgears your ret paladin then it'd be better to put him in the melee group instead. But if your ret paladin is that bad, then he shouldn't be in the raid at all.
#1651SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ragnor
Ret vs extra Rogue/Warrior in the melee group..

While I'd like to say it's better to have the ret paladin in there, at the end game it just isn't. You only have to look at a few of the highest raid dps logs on wws. Yes they use a ret paladin but he's in the tank group.

Example: The highest gorefiend log by Vis Maior, 23 Jan 08:
WWS Loading...

At that level of raid dps, you have to give the tank wf for threat, so the ret paladin still gets wf just not battleshout, unleashed rage etc.

T6 geared rogues are insane.

Last edited by Ragnor : 01/24/08 at 8:18 PM.
#1652SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
noth
Geared rogues are indeed awesome. The question is, if you took a rogue out of the WF group and put the ret pali in, would his DPS increase (and the DPS increase for the other 4 members of the group who suddenly get a 2% increase to their damage as well) make up for and surpass the DPS decrease of moving the rogue out? Generally speaking, the answer seems to be "yes, yes it would."

Last edited by noth : 01/24/08 at 8:24 PM. Reason: grammar
#1653SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by noth View Post
Geared rogues are indeed awesome. The question is, if you took a rogue out of the WF group and put the ret pali in, would his DPS increase (and the DPS increase for the other 4 members of the group who suddenly get a 2% increase to their damage as well) make up for and surpass the DPS decrease of moving the rogue out? Generally speaking, the answer seems to be "yes, yes it would."
Lets make an assumption that a 2% damage increase correlates to a 2% dps increase (not sure how accurate that is in practice). Say the 4 mainstays (warrior, shaman, rogue, rogue) of the melee group do 7800 dps added together (average of 1800 dps each). After Imp Sanctity that's 7956 dps.

So a difference of 156 dps for the 4 mainstays in the melee group.

Key:
rdm = Ret Paladin's DPS in Melee group
rdo = Ret Paladins DPS in some other group
odm = Other(warrior/rogue) DPS in a Melee group
odo = Other (warrior/rogue/x) DPS in some other group

This means that:
((rdm - rdo) + 156) has to be > (odm - odo)

Lets say the paladin does 900 dps without windfury, battleshout and unleashed rage.. and 1500 dps with stacked melee group (not unsual). So you're talking about a loss of 756 raid dps.

How much dps would your typical combat swords rogue lose from not having wf, battleshout and unleashed rage?

I guess we could work it out with the dps spreadsheets.
#1654SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
How much dps would your typical combat swords rogue lose from not having wf, battleshout and unleashed rage?

I guess we could work it out with the dps spreadsheets.
The 1800dps rogue in the example would lose upto 400DPS missing those 3 buffs.
#1655SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arienal
Originally Posted by whut. View Post
Season 3 ret gloves are currently the best in the game. You need to go pick these up, also work on getting the Heroic BF libram, or at least something you can get a benefit from.

I'm hoping you're not using SoC as a BE for PvE DPS.
I have the BF one and do use SoB for PvE.

I had the SoC libram on because I was grinding elementals for primals before I logged out and forgot to change it sorry.

And I know the S3 gloves are good, but is it more of a DPs upgrade to change to my S3 chest, or get the new gloves?
#1656SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Arienal View Post
And I know the S3 gloves are good, but is it more of a DPs upgrade to change to my S3 chest, or get the new gloves?
Learn to use the Pally spreadsheet, or at use Maxdps.com if you don't care/know how to use the spreadsheet.


Since the maxdps page doesn't add up dps from Season 3 glove bonus, just add at least 20 dps when using S3 gloves to the website dps number to see what item is better to get first.
#1657SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gerilith
Any definite knowledge about whether JoC is based on melee or spell hit?
#1658SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aramul
Originally Posted by Gerilith View Post
Any definite knowledge about whether JoC is based on melee or spell hit?
Read the first post of the thread.
#1659SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gerilith
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
Read the first post of the thread.
I did, but what I'd like to know is if there are any emprical proofs or where I can find them.
#1660SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
So long story short, for a raidgroup with neither a ret paladin nor an enhancement shaman, which class would be more beneficial to the raid?

What do you think?
This depends on the number of other paladins/shamans you have in the raid. Do you have sufficient resto shammies to put one in the melee group for WF?

If so, your raidgroup is better off with a ret paladin.


Would the melee group go without a shaman at all if you took the ret pala? If so, your raid group is better off with an (enhancement) shaman.


Originally Posted by Seventity View Post
warrior/enh/druid/rogue/rogue in meele group instead of warrior/enh/druid/ret/rogue. According to their plan, retribution paladin is placed in tank group with BM hunter and another feral druid.

Can anyone confirm that such setup will provide more benefit for overall raid dps considering similar level of gear for everyone?
Not all players are equally skilled/geared so it really depends on the individual ret paladin and rogue.

Another factor is the level of content/gear you're talking about. There's a cutoff point for ret paladins, if you go below a certain gear level they're utterly worthless in comparison to an equally low level geared rogue/dps class. Once you surpass a certain gear level however, it only gets better. Ret paladins scale "very" well with gear due to the abundance of damage multiplier mechanics.

So if you take two equally geared/skilled players, an endgame T6 geared ret paladin and an endgame T6 geared rogue, I'm very sure you'd want the paladin with windfury.

The overall gain in DPS of having the ret paladin with windfury + 2% of party damage for the melee group will heavily outweigh the personal DPS of the rogue being slightly boosted by WF.

Another possibility is taking the feral druid out since they don't gain from WF.

Remember you're really butchering the paladins personal DPS by not giving him WF, where as a rogue would not be that dependent on it and is well served with the BM hunter + feral.


Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Lets say the paladin does 900 dps without windfury, battleshout and unleashed rage.. and 1500 dps with stacked melee group (not unsual).

Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
While I'd like to say it's better to have the ret paladin in there, at the end game it just isn't. You only have to look at a few of the highest raid dps logs on wws. Yes they use a ret paladin but he's in the tank group.

Example: The highest gorefiend log by Vis Maior, 23 Jan 08:
WWS Loading...

This is really not an argument. As said, not all ret paladins are geared/skilled equally.

I've recently been hitting ~1950+ DPS in the melee group at Teron (enhance, war, ret, rogue, rogue... no druid, occasionally a BM hunter), without the use of haste pots (mana potions all the way). I'm half certain I could push it to 2k since I usually hover up and down that number.

This is very comparable to a T6 rogue DPS and I'm sure if you take away WF from either the difference will be shocking (huge difference for ret ~15% + no mana spring, minimal difference for rogue ~4-6%).


Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
At that level of raid dps, you have to give the tank wf for threat, so the ret paladin still gets wf just not battleshout, unleashed rage etc.
We've been doing just fine with giving the MT another warrior (BS) and a feral (crit). The only fights where we give the MT(s) a shaman is RoS and Bloodboil. It's usually one of the resto's too.


Originally Posted by Gerilith View Post
Any definite knowledge about whether JoC is based on melee or spell hit?
JoC is based on spell hit.
#1661SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teer
Did you see the (probably fake) 2.4 patch notes on World of Raids?

Paladins
- Holy Shock: The cooldown has been reduced to 12 sec, from 15 sec and the amount of damage and healing done has been slightly increased.
- Avenger's Shield: The cast time has been reduced to 0.5 sec, down from 1 sec.
- Crusade: This talent now increases your spell damage and healing by 25/50% of your Strength.
- Sanctity Aura now increases all damage done by party members by 4%, but the Holy spell damage bonus has been removed.
- Improved Sanctity Aura has been removed.
- Sanctified Reach (New Retribution Talent): Increases the range of your Judgement and Hammer of Justice spells by 25/50% and the range of your Hammer of Wrath and Repentance spells by 10/20%.
I don't usually believe in unofficial patch notes, but these do have a smell of truth. Anyway, I will go back dreaming about 400 free spell damage.
#1662SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Meuble
Big news: On the pal french boards, a bloodelf came up with something I didn't knew about(I don't think it's been posted here)
For those who don't read french, well, he noticed that whenever he casted SoB quickly after his white hit landed, he would get a SoB proc. He tried to do so after gaining a SoC proc, and got a double SoB.
Instead of: White hit / SoC Proc, casting SoB just after the SoC proc allows him to get White hit / SoC Proc / SoB Proc / SoB proc.
Screenshots: http://pagesperso-orange.fr/Destrid/SoC-SoB.jpg http://pagesperso-orange.fr/Destrid/SoC-SoB2.jpg
I'm gonna go try this on the blasted mobs, see how good it is for boosting my dps.

(and it's really, really fun in pvp )

Last edited by Meuble : 01/25/08 at 1:17 PM.
#1663SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
Did you see the (probably fake) 2.4 patch notes on World of Raids?



I don't usually believe in unofficial patch notes, but these do have a smell of truth. Anyway, I will go back dreaming about 400 free spell damage.
To be honest, the note about Crusade is one of the ones which made me believe that the notes were false. They remove spell damage from the most recently itemized Ret set(S3) completely, they remove the spell damage coefficient from the signature attack in the Ret tree, and then they give us a talent to add spell damage? It makes less than no sense. It could certainly be true, but it's not something that makes any sense without some broader changes to Ret mechanics, including a reversal of the CS change.
#1664SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gerilith
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
To be honest, the note about Crusade is one of the ones which made me believe that the notes were false. They remove spell damage from the most recently itemized Ret set(S3) completely, they remove the spell damage coefficient from the signature attack in the Ret tree, and then they give us a talent to add spell damage? It makes less than no sense. It could certainly be true, but it's not something that makes any sense without some broader changes to Ret mechanics, including a reversal of the CS change.
It makes much sense. Less stats you rely on and exorcism/consecrate are viable again.
#1665SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Foofu
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Big news...
I've actually noticed the inverse before, where if I judge SoB after the white hit I can lose my SoB proc, so there is a decent probability here that the SoB check is happening separate from the white hit and doesn't maintain seal state from the white hit.

This can also be seen in windfury procs where your SoB procs sometimes take up to a second longer to hit than your white hits.
#1666SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
For all those wondering about group makeups, my guild did even better this week on Teron, placing 9th on recorded dmg done (now 11th, damn you Blood Legion!). Here is a WWS with ghost damage removed:

WWS--Teron Gorefiend

We only brought one rogue, and had only one melee group and one "hunter" group. The group makeups was ret(me)/MS war/rogue/enh sham/feral druid. The other group was hunter/hunter/feral druid/enh sham/(can't remember, possibly resto druid). The casters did have an elemental shaman.

In case anyone is interested I made anther video. This time I get to dps the whole time, but my fps drops really low at the end.

Enjoy
#1667SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rasputin
Originally Posted by Gerilith View Post
It makes much sense. Less stats you rely on and exorcism/consecrate are viable again.
But the only visible changes that have been made to Retribution mechanics recently minimize the use of spell damage. The removal of the stat completely from our main attack says to me that they don't want us to use the stat. Without additional changes to our mana regen mechanics only downranked Consecration spam is viable, and while Exorcism is currently useful in much of the raid content, it is not a universal attack that we can count on. The only real uses of spell damage are Consecration which is too mana intensive to use at full power, and Command. I'm speaking from a position of using SoB(and I firmly believe they need to either fix SoC to make it the definitive DPS seal or give SoB to Alliance, post-haste), so to me spell damage is a throwaway stat and it's not a powerful stat even for Alliance paladins, although it is more useful for them than for me. I have no real interest in becoming an enhancement shaman, and don't see much need for a str/SP -> spell damage talent. If they add a talent such as the proposed Crusade, it is only another confused design decision about Retribution, unless they simultaneously revert the CS change or alter seal mechanics or our mana regen model to support a spell-damage intensive itemization. That seems unlikely to me, although not impossible. I guess I'll have to seethe and froth a little more as I wait for the official patch notes.

Last edited by Rasputin : 01/25/08 at 2:13 PM. Reason: Clarification
#1668SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 zeidrich
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
To be honest, the note about Crusade is one of the ones which made me believe that the notes were false. They remove spell damage from the most recently itemized Ret set(S3) completely, they remove the spell damage coefficient from the signature attack in the Ret tree, and then they give us a talent to add spell damage? It makes less than no sense. It could certainly be true, but it's not something that makes any sense without some broader changes to Ret mechanics, including a reversal of the CS change.
Spell damage is still necessary for Judgement and Consecration, which are still a fair portion of your damage output.

Imagine if they had put this change in and left crusader strike as it was, relying on both attack power and spell damage. 800 strength would not only give you 1760+ AP on your CS, it would also give you 176+ Extra damage per CS. You would get a double bonus from one stat, which would end up being overpowered.

The reason they do this in phases is so that they can see how things scale with small changes. They know how much CS is hitting for, and making this change would not affect it any more. It would only raise Judgement, Consecrate and Exorcism damage, which is why they are free to make it.

Plus it makes sense so that further down the line there is more overlap between paladin and warrior gear. As if this change went through, it would mean the only difference between warrior and paladin gear really would be that paladins can make use of Intellect.

No real opinion on whether the notes are real or fake. I would personally expect to see something like crusade given baseline, or in a tier 1 talent rank so that protection paladins could get it as well, and therefor share common plate tank gear as well as common plate dps gear.
#1669SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Meuble
. I would personally expect to see something like crusade given baseline, or in a tier 1 talent rank so that protection paladins could get it as well, and therefor share common plate tank gear as well as common plate dps gear.
I rather see parry on prot t1. It sounds more likely to me, and it will be better for prot and ret (and even for holy maybe).

And about those double SoB Procs, it might be fun to use them in PvP, but it clearly ain't pve wise (except for fights like Akama pre fix..). You can't wait for the SoC proc to launc SoB, or it won't work. So you have to cast two seals on each attacks... Even with chain drinking manapots, it's not possible.


Quick edit: I agree with the AP => SD talent. It would make sense. The burst was too heavy, so they modified CS. Now the judgements are too weak, so we can get that talent, and not seeing overpowered cs + judgements. I would like to see that. Or an interupt / charge (MS would be too much imho) but it wouldn't be any good for pve.

Last edited by Meuble : 01/25/08 at 2:44 PM.
#1670SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sorry
That Crusade rumor seems fake since Crusade is a 3 pointer at the moment and I don't think they'll make a 0/25/50 talent.
#1671SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
15 yard stun just screams fake to me. *shrug*

I've been trying my hand a PvP ret this weekend, and its really changed my view of things. An AP > SD conversion would be great, but in all reality it really wouldn't help a huge amount. Gearing would be very easy, since Warrior epics clearly become superior to everything, but all that extra spell damage isn't going to do much since you'll still only be using it for 1 spell that gets a very small coefficient. I think if they give an AP > SD conversion there should also be some sort of passive regen or STR > INT conversion as well, or even just a reitemization of the tier sets so that INT gear becomes worthwhile. Then you get your spell damage as well as the mana pool to support using it to its greatest extent.
#1672SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
If those changes were real, we'd be looking at a slight Seal of Blood nerf, and a slight Seal of Command buff. Nothing earth shattering in either case, and nothing even close to bringing the two factions into parity. We would also lose our synergy with Protection Paladins by losing Sanctity Aura, and Shockadin builds would be killed for good.

I would be pretty disappointed if those were the best fixes they could come up with. Spell damage is the poorest stat available for improving our damage, so I don't understand why everybody has such an electronic erection over getting more of it.

Edit:

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
An AP > SD conversion would be great, but in all reality it really wouldn't help a huge amount. Gearing would be very easy, since Warrior epics clearly become superior to everything....
That's not so different from today. Warrior epics are already clearly superior to everything, with only two exceptions: Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets, and the two piece Lightbringer Battlegear set bonus. Punching in a 50% spell damage bonus from strength on the DPS calculator showed that there's almost exactly the same gap between paladin gear and Warrior gear that exists without the stat conversion, so unless something fundamentally changes about how our Tier sets are generated we're sitting in the same boat post-patch.

Assuming these notes are real. Which they probably aren't.

Last edited by Theras : 01/25/08 at 4:28 PM.
#1673SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
I'm not so sure actually about SoC vs SoB if those changes turn out to be legit.

So while spelldamage might not be the greatest stat, at ~800+ str buffed, that's 400 free spelldamage for SoC and JoC to gain from, that's quiet a hefty buff.


Also if sanctity aura would get changed to a total 4% damage buff, that would be a pretty welcome change to melee groups wanting us in their parties.

I'm undecided what effect this would have on our personal DPS however, 2% more total damage vs 10% holy damage. Sounds about equalish to me or a slight nerf.
#1674SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
That's not so different from today. Warrior epics are already clearly superior to everything, with only two exceptions: Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets, and the two piece Lightbringer Battlegear set bonus. Punching in a 50% spell damage bonus from strength on the DPS calculator showed that there's almost exactly the same gap between paladin gear and Warrior gear that exists without the stat conversion, so unless something fundamentally changes about how our Tier sets are generated we're sitting in the same boat post-patch.
I'm not saying that warrior gear isn't already better, I'm just saying that even if you do get all that free spell damage it won't help much. You'll still be stuck with a 5k mana pool, which means you won't be using consecration or exorcism 99 times out of 100, and that talent everyone has been salavating over will basically just up your SoC damage by 100 or so.

Tier gear needs to be reitemized or regen/mana needs to be adjusted for this to really be a useful buff IMO.
#1675SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Druids and Shaman have a strength/attack talent that converts one stat to healing/spell damage, so I see a Str-SD talent coming up (even though it doesn't add much dps, it is an improvement especially for leveling where FoL's efficiency is pretty handy).

I would like to see a imp Sanc Aura changing to 4% and keeping the 10% Holy Damage, not only would it help raiding Ret, it would make Sanc Aura better than Ret Aura for leveling, when currently it is not.
#1676SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I'm not saying that warrior gear isn't already better, I'm just saying that even if you do get all that free spell damage it won't help much. You'll still be stuck with a 5k mana pool, which means you won't be using consecration or exorcism 99 times out of 100, and that talent everyone has been salavating over will basically just up your SoC damage by 100 or so.

Tier gear needs to be reitemized or regen/mana needs to be adjusted for this to really be a useful buff IMO.
I don't know bout you... but I am wearing full warrior gear right now other than my s3 gloves/helm(illidari wont drop =[) and I don't have my 2 piece yet so I am not wearing any... which means I am sitting at 6500ish mana fully raid buffed... but despite that on every single boss fight I am able to keep up AT LEAST rank 1 conc and exorcism spam up just fine.... Combat mana pots make it easy on farm bosses, and mana injectors are cheap as hell...

If you are having mana problems and dont like popping pots, then just lower your dps and like it XD Full burn cycles for all classes take mana pots... shouldn't be any difference for us
#1677SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Maximum Flouride
I have a trinket question. As a Belf SoB Retributer, which combination of the following trinkets would I benefit most from?

Abacus of Violent Odds
Tsunami Talisman
Dragonspine Trophy

I was thinking of the Abacus and the Dragonspine trophy.

What do you guys think?
#1678SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
I don't know bout you... but I am wearing full warrior gear right now other than my s3 gloves/helm(illidari wont drop =[) and I don't have my 2 piece yet so I am not wearing any... which means I am sitting at 6500ish mana fully raid buffed... but despite that on every single boss fight I am able to keep up AT LEAST rank 1 conc and exorcism spam up just fine.... Combat mana pots make it easy on farm bosses, and mana injectors are cheap as hell...

If you are having mana problems and dont like popping pots, then just lower your dps and like it XD Full burn cycles for all classes take mana pots... shouldn't be any difference for us
Super Manas cost about 15g a stack on my server, so it seems we're coming from completely different areas, but regardless. I'm assuming SoC because SoB throws in a monkey wrench to calculations in the form of SA regen.

Numbers:

Consecration:
Rank I
Avg. Base Damage: 64
Mana Cost: 120
DPS: 8
DPM: .533
Mana use: -75 Mp5
Coefficient: .422 (over 8 seconds)
Rank VI
Avg. Base Damage: 512
Mana Cost: 660
DPS: 64
DPM: .776
Mana use: -412.5 Mp5
Coefficient: .954 (over 8 seconds)
So, as everyone already knows, Consecration is a nice fat mana drain. Being generous and giving 400 spell damage from the "new talent" and 219 from JotC (619 damage total) as well as all the percentage modifiers (Sanctity Aura, Imp. SA, Crusade, Vengeance), your Rank I Consecration will tic for 54 and your Rank IV will tic for 183. Respectable numbers, but look at what it costs you. Even a Rank I Consecration cycle will basically eat any regen you may have been getting for JoW. Blowing every single form of regen normally available in a raid situation (Chain Super Manas, JoW, BoW, Mana Spring) you will be losing at least 100 Mp5 just from using a max rank Consecration, not even including your other spells. The only fight in the game I can think of that has that kind of luxury with mana consumption is Shade.

Exorcism is a much more efficient spell, balanced of course because there are plenty of bosses you can't use it on. Numbers:

Exorcism:
Rank I
Avg. Base Damage: 90
Mana Cost: 70
DPS: 6
DPM: 1.286
Mana use: -23.33 Mp5
Coefficient: .190
Rank VII
Avg. Base Damage: 665
Mana Cost: 340
DPS: 44.33
DPM: 1.960
Mana use: -113.33 Mp5
Coefficient: .429
So with the same conditions as before, Rank I Exorcism will hit for 276 (18.4 DPS) and max rank will hit for 1237 (82.45 DPS). Again, respectable numbers, though a max rank Exorcism will still burn through all your JoW regen and change.

A basic Rank VI SoC rotation with an 8 second Judgement and 6 second CS will cost you about 237 Mp5. So you'll be gaining about 63 Mp5 by blowing everything with a regular cycle. Now factor in Rank I Consecration. You're now up to losing 12 Mp5. Rank VI Consecration? -349 Mp5. Exorcism fares somewhat better. Rank I puts you at +40 Mp5, max rank runs you down at -50 Mp5.

With your 6.5k mana, max rank Exorcism runs you dry in ~650 seconds (almost 11 minutes). Max Rank Consecration spamming drops your time until OOM down to just 93 seconds. And for what? Assuming the spell damage bonuses go into effect, Rank VI Consecration drops your DPS time by a huge amount for a 183 DPS increase.

Just for fun, I wanted to see how much mana you could burn using max ranks of both spells with a full cycle. You will be burning 562 Mp5 after all regen (862 Mp5 before regen) to do a true Maximum DPS rotation. With your 6.5k mana pool that is OOM in just over 60 seconds seconds (i.e. Shade).

Of course these numbers are unrealistic (who would be dumb enough to spam max rank Consecration?) but you get the point. Even if the spell damage change goes through we're still sacrificing a huge amount of DPS time to pump out the things that are actually benefiting from it. We need something to cushion the high mana cost of these spells, whether its a focus proc like shamans or an activated heavy regen like mages or shamans or a passive regen like Battle Chickens melee or an X > Mana talent or even just a reitemization of tier gear to make Intellect gear more desirable. Otherwise we can continue being one of the few classes that is forced to heavily downrank to be effective.

And as usual, if my math sucks feel free to fix it.

And of course, AP > SD is a great idea that should be in, but its far from the final solution.

EDIT: big long rant!

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 01/26/08 at 1:52 AM.
#1679SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Maximum Flouride View Post
I have a trinket question. As a Belf SoB Retributer, which combination of the following trinkets would I benefit most from?

Abacus of Violent Odds
Tsunami Talisman
Dragonspine Trophy

I was thinking of the Abacus and the Dragonspine trophy.

What do you guys think?
I think you should use the spreadsheet at the very top of the very first post of the thread. For your convenience, I have linked the post here: [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
#1680SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
When i try to use theDPS Spreadsheet from bellator i keep getting the same error: "Run-time error '1004' - Method 'Range' of object'_Global' failed"

Any idea how to fix it?

Ty
#1681SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seventity
I think STR > SD talent is not that unlikely thing to happen. Although CS mechanics were changed, there is still abundance of skills scaling either with bonus holy damage or bonus healing. This doesn't make much difference in raid dps situation, but I think it will be very welcome by PvP players, because currently they are missing any scaling on heals, consecration, hammer of wrath and judgment of command. It would also help to bring SoC a little closer to SoB in DPS. Changing Crusade for it is also possible as well as changing it from 3-pointer to 2-pointer.

The other unconfirmed change to Sanctity Aura looks a little grim. It's a 2% more damage gained vs 10% less holy damage done which might be even a nerf to overall damage and nerf for sure in PvP. However it would be an overall buff of dps group performance.


Regarding ret paladin placement, there is one thing I've missed in my question - threat. While a rogue can use mutliple aggro reduction skills and just go on with damage, ret paladin can't. So in a very threat caped situation it might be more beneficial to replace ret with rogue in meele group. However I'm unsure how effective is rogues threat reduction - does vanish remove all aggro? How much more DPS can rogue do per 1 feint?

Anyway thanks for all the answers.
#1682SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Teer
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
When i try to use theDPS Spreadsheet from bellator i keep getting the same error: "Run-time error '1004' - Method 'Range' of object'_Global' failed"

Any idea how to fix it?

Ty
If you are using Excel: go into Excel Options > Advanced > (scroll to the bottom) check "Transition Formula Entry"


Originally Posted by Seventity View Post
Regarding ret paladin placement, there is one thing I've missed in my question - threat. While a rogue can use mutliple aggro reduction skills and just go on with damage, ret paladin can't. So in a very threat caped situation it might be more beneficial to replace ret with rogue in meele group. However I'm unsure how effective is rogues threat reduction - does vanish remove all aggro? How much more DPS can rogue do per 1 feint?
Feint (rank 6) removes 1050 threat which should equal around 1300 damage. I don't play a rogue any longer, but rogues in my guild have been heard muttering about the uselessness of Feint. I don't think they even use it any longer.
The solid threat dump comes from Vanish which reduce aggro to zero, just like Feign Death.


Well the (unconfirmed) change to Sanctity Aura reduce our holy damage by 10%, but increase ALL our damage by 2% (4% if you take 2 free talent points into consideration). Holy damage only effect Consecration, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath and Judge. While the flat 4% increase effect all things, including Crusader Strike and auto attack (which is around 50% of the total damage). Maybe it's not a buff, but I really don't think it will be a nerf. Maybe if someone who is good at calculations (*hint hint*) can even theorycraft exact numbers and prove me wrong. But I know that our reputation with melee groups should increase, even if it's not the change I would want (like Vengeance gives party a stacking buff).

Last edited by Teer : 01/26/08 at 10:13 AM.
#1683SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Okay, it's slightly silly to take rumored patch notes seriously (and come on, the same method as 2.3? Put up on the EU forums and copied before it was deleted?), but here it goes:


Figure Auto-attack (50%), CS (20~%), with SoC/JoC (30%), for a total of 100%. Sanct. Aura adds 10% holy damage (SoC/JoC) => +3% overall damage. The rumored Sanct. Aura would be +4% damage, a gain.

The ratio of Holy to physical damage depends a lot on your rotation and situation (AoE situations completely favor Holy damage, for example), but for single target raid DPS, 70 to 30 seems about right. (based it on my last DPS parse for ZA)


I'm ignoring the iSanct Aura talent, but the rumored SA seems to cost 1 talent point and whatnot.


And that's about as far as I'd analyze those rumors. Save your effort for the real PTR notes.
#1684SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Carpathia
I've tried to math model the possible changes in 2.4. If you find some mistakes let me know


The calculations assume
-JotC to be applied on the target
-actual Crusade 3/3 (+3% damge)
-new Crusade 2/2 (with 50% Str > Spd) in 2.4
-actual Sanctity Aura (+10% holy damage) and improved Sanctity Aura 2/2 (+2% damage)
-new improved Sanctity Aura 2/2 (4%) in 2.4


old SPD = your actual Spelldamage without SotC
new SPD = old SPD + 0.5 * (your STR)


new Melee = old Melee * 1.04 / ( 1.03 * 1.02)
new Melee = old Melee * 0.990

new CS = old CS * 1.04 / ( 1.03 * 1.02)
new CS = old CS * 0.990

new SoB = old SoB * 1.04 / ( 1.03 * 1.02 * 1.1)
new SoB = old SoB * 0.900

new JoB = old JoB * (310+ (new SPD+219) * 0.43) / (310 + (old SPD+219) * 0.43) ) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new JoB = old JoB * 0.900 * (939.93 + new SPD) / (939.93 + old SPD)

new SoC = old SoC * (0.7 * Average Hit + new SPD*0.2 + 219*0.29) / (0.7 * Average Hit + old SPD*0.2 + 219*0.29) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new SoC = old SoC * 0.900 (317.55 + 3.5 * Average Hit + new SPD) / (317.55 + 3.5 * Average Hit + old SPD)

new JoC(6) = old JoC(6)* (240+ (new SPD+219) * 0.43) / (240 + (old SPD+219) * 0.43) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new JoC(6) = old JoC(6)* 0.900 * (777.14 + new SPD) / (777.14 + old SPD)

new Exorcism(7) = old Exorcism(7) * (665 + (new SPD+219)*0.43) / (665 + (old SPD+219)*0.43) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new Exorcism(7) = old Exorcism(7) * 0.900 * (1765.51 + new SPD) / (1765.51 + old SPD)

new Consecration(1) = old Consecration(1) * (64+0.46*new SPD+0.95*219) / (64+0.46*old SPD+0.95*219) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new Consecration(1) = old Consecration(1) * 0.900 * (591.41+new SPD) / (591.41 + old SPD)

new Consecration(6) = old Consecration(6) * (512+0.95*(new SPD+219)) / (512+0.95(old SPD+219)) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new Consecration(6) = old Consecration(6) * 0.900 * (757.95+new SPD) / (757.95 + old SPD)


so if i take my last teron kill with 44% melee, 22%SoB, 21%CS, 9%JoB, 2% Exorcism(7), 2% Cons(1)
Str = 813
old Spd = 122
new spd = 528


old DPS = 100%
new dps = 44% * new Melee + 22% * new SoB + 9% * new JoB + 21% * new CS + 2% * new Exorcism(7) + 2% new Cons(1)
new dps = 44% * 0.99 + 22% * 0.9 + 9% * 1.244 + 21% * 0.99 + 2% * 1.094 + 2% * 1.412
new dps = 100.358%


the alliance fellows should see a higher dps increase, because SoC has compared to SoB a better modifier

ps : the coefficients are taken from Bellators Sheet, i assume them to be correct

Last edited by Carpathia : 01/26/08 at 4:09 PM.
#1685SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Come on, guys, those patch notes are fake, no point wasting your time speculating. This is supposed to be a serious thread anyway.
#1686SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Alleyra
Hey there,

Just a small introduction: I'm a long-time Paladin player (since Closed Beta!) and I absolutely adore the Class. I've been a long-time reader of these forums and have found them to be an invaluable resource. So, firstly: thanks to all the great contributors to the thread.

I just wanted to comment on the upcoming 2.4 rumors.

I have personally seen a ton of "leaks" and, "confirmed but deleted" claims over the past few weeks on numerous websites, forums, etc. And at risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I've really only seen a few that seem plausible, given the recent itemization direction, (removal of Spell Damage) talent changes, coefficient reductions/removals.

- Repentance made baseline.
- Crusader Strike moved to 31 point talent.
- Retribution 41 point talent: "Vengeful Strike", 8-second cool-down, 75% weapon damage, reduces Healing done by the target by 15% for 5 seconds.
- Avenging Wrath no longer causes Forbearance. However, it still cannot be activated while afflicted with Forbearance. In addition, Avenging Wrath can no longer be stolen or dispelled (except by Mass Dispel).
- Forbearance has been reduced to 30 seconds.
- Judgment of Command now bases its damage on Attack Power.
- All Judgments now base their chance to hit on either Melee Hit or Spell Hit, whichever will yield a higher chance of a successful cast.
- Hammer of Wrath now scales with either Attack Power or Spell Damage, whichever will do more damage.
- Seal of Vengeance will now apply a charge on every successful hit. Additionally, its Spell Damage coefficient has been increased.
- Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Blood are now available to their opposite factions. SoB on Alliance is named Seal of Sacrifice. SoV on Horde is named Seal of Reckoning.
- Blessing of Freedom cool-down reduced to 15 seconds.
- Cyclone cannot be used against a target that is already under the effects of Divine Shield.
- Retribution Season 1 and Season 2 sets have had their Spell Damage replaced with Resilience.
- Retribution Tiers 4-6 have had their Spell Damage replaced with Haste.
- Redoubt and Reckoning now have a chance to proc on Dodged, Parried, or fully Blocked attacks.
- Improved Devotion Aura now grants a flat 1/2/3/4/5% flat damage reduction to party members in range.
- Sanctity Aura increases all Physical damage by 10%.
- Improved Sanctity Aura increases all damage dealt to afflicted targets by 1/2%.
- Divine Purpose now applies to spell casts in addition to ranged and physical damage.
- Anticipation, Toughness, and One-Handed Weapon Specialization are now each 3-point talents granting the same effect.
- The silence- and interrupt-resistance of Improved Concentration Aura have been worked into the baseline talent. It's place in the Protection tree has been replaced by Anticipation.
- Holy Shield can now be cast while Silenced.
- "Passive" Blessings (Might, Wisdom, etc.) are now no longer overwritten by "Active" Blessings (Freedom, Sacrifice, etc.)
- Holy Shock has had its cooldown reduced to 8 seconds and its effect increased.
Again, no claims that these are "it." No claim of "my Blue friend showed me this." These just seemed a bit more centralized in the realm of realism, based on my experience playing the Class and the direction the Class/spec seems to be moving in.

I do, however, cross my fingers and hope that those are what's to come.

Last edited by Alleyra : 01/26/08 at 6:38 PM.
#1687SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Chicken
- Improved Sanctity Aura increases all damage dealt to afflicted targets by 1/2%.
Unless they're changing it so that improved sanctity aura makes it affect hostile targets, that note makes very little sense.
#1688SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Alleyra
I think that's what's implied. A passive/offensive effect: making it a raid-wide buff, as opposed to a group-only buff.

Last edited by Alleyra : 01/26/08 at 6:38 PM.
#1689SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Those changes are so fake, no way in hell blizz give us so many buffs, deserved or not...

Originally Posted by Teer View Post
If you are using Excel: go into Excel Options > Advanced > (scroll to the bottom) check "Transition Formula Entry"
TY!
#1690SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I'm assuming SoC because SoB throws in a monkey wrench to calculations in the form of SA regen.
I'm just gonna say this since the alliance paladins keep bringing this up. SoB dmg dealt to the user is VERY low. I have quite good gear, and I can go through all of ROS p1 and barely break 3k dmg to myself. Thats and entire boss phase with A maximum of 300 mana returned. Yes its something, but on fights where I don't take dmg from the boss, my SA return is almost nonexistant.
#1691SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Alleyra View Post
I have personally seen a ton of "leaks" and, "confirmed but deleted" claims over the past few weeks on numerous websites, forums, etc. And at risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I've really only seen a few that seem plausible, given the recent itemization direction, (removal of Spell Damage) talent changes, coefficient reductions/removals.
****snip****
Again, no claims that these are "it." No claim of "my Blue friend showed me this." These just seemed a bit more centralized in the realm of realism, based on my experience playing the Class and the direction the Class/spec seems to be moving in.

I do, however, cross my fingers and hope that those are what's to come.
To believe the quoted changes in your post would to be incredibly naive. It just looks like someone went through the first 5 pages of threads on the Paladin forums and plucked anything they thought was a good idea. Come on, "SoB on Alliance is named Seal of Sacrifice. SoV on Horde is named Seal of Reckoning." Regardless of your opinions on class balancing/changes, it's pretty safe to assume the dev's could think of more clever names than these. [Seal of Martyrdom would make the most sense for SoB, and Seal of Vengeance shouldn't need a name change since it doesn't imply anything faction-specific]
#1692SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
SoB dmg dealt to the user is VERY low.
If the damage taken is low, do you normally use SoB when questing solo?
#1693SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
grayrest
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If the damage taken is low, do you normally use SoB when questing solo?
To reiterate his point, I only push around 700 dps self buffed (and around 1k full raid buffed), but if I'm not taking damage from another source, my healing is completely covered by ILotP and JoL, which sucks because they both count as self heals and don't trigger SA.

To answer the question, I use SoB when I'm grinding mobs that will be cleanly killed by SoB. E.g. If I'm consistently slivering a mob i'm grinding with two autoattacks with SoC, I switch to SoB. Same if I'm running people through an instance, the consistent extra damage lets me one-shot mobs in the WC/SFK range rather than having to two-shot them. Otherwise, the dps increase doesn't justify the extra downtime. The damage isn't that much, but it's enough to force you to eat/bandage before you'd normally have to drink.

Last edited by grayrest : 01/27/08 at 12:09 AM.
#1694SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurm
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If the damage taken is low, do you normally use SoB when questing solo?
Yes, I often do. I just don't judge very often... most of the recoil comes from judging. In fact, versus certain classes in pvp when I know burst dmg won't help me, I'll use SoB too for consistency. Also I always go grinding/dailey farming with mana buscuits, so getting hp back while getting mana back isn't a problem.

And also adding to Grayrest's point, in pve the mana return is further diminished by the fact that imp LOTP and JoL pretty much entirely negate SoB/JoB dmg, and don't give you any mana back since you are healing yourself.

In fact, lets take a look on a fight like Teron...a fairly standard dps fight.

Teron WWS

Now, looking at my own stats here...

I had no JoL, so SA will have a bit more weight here than it normally would. LOTP healed 8.2k, 33% was overhealed. So that is about 5.5k effective healing "stolen" by LOTP where I didn't get mana back. I did 12,824 dmg to myself with SoB, and Teron did almost 7k. So thats about 22,000 damage I was healed, 16.5k which I could have gotten mana from (we'd probably be looking at more like 10-11k if JoL was on the target). Thats 1.6k mana I could have gotten mana from SA for this, only about ((12824-5500)/10)=750 mana from SoB/JoB dmg dealt over the entire course of the fight. Again, that would be lower had JoL been present. As it turns out, I gained 1733 mana this fight from SA, so the estimate was close.

In conclusion, there certainly is a difference in mana which is significant mathematically, but in the greater scheme of things mana for 2-3 more Crusader Strikes every 3 minutes is not some overpowered percentage. Looking at total mana gained that fight (keep in mind I didn't use ANY mana pots), that 750 mana accounted for about 6.9% of the total mana gained over the course of the fight. I wouldn't call a 7.5% increase in mana regen compared to alliance overpowered, but its certainly a figure you guys are welcome to use in your Theorycrafting.

Hope this helped.

Last edited by Zurm : 01/27/08 at 12:45 AM.
#1695SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Yes Zurm, you're entirely correct that recoil regen is very small, and you won't get any argument from me. When you're just running pure numbers though it is so much simpler just to cut out any unnecessary variables. Spiritual Atunement is (for all intents and purposes) impossible to model mathematically, and thus its so much easier just to cut it out entirely. And whether you find it large enough for exclusion or not, SoB is extra regen via SA. Period.

We could run all these models with SoB, but it just makes things more complicated, both to the people crunching the numbers and those using them. Is it realistic? No. But theorycraft is just that, pure theory. Your mileage will vary.

EDIT: I don't think anyone is going with the SoB > SoC thing right now. I just always assume SoC for mathematical convenience.
#1696SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gormal
I don't think that is possible to value the mana return from SoB recoil in 180 seconds as you aren't really past the point of going OOM. When you're talking about most fights where you are chain-potting though, it really does give you a nice boost. Who doesn't love fights where you take a lot of damage just for the mana returns?

Last edited by Gormal : 01/27/08 at 11:27 AM.
#1697SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Svetozar
threat management

Tonight I raided Void Reaver for the first time.

During the fight, I had to stop dealing damage 6 times for 10-15 sec each time to get down on the aggro list. Even that, I was at the very top of the aggro list during the whole fight and finished only 11th on the damage done.

I must say I didnt have enchance shaman in my group and Fanaticism and Blessing of Salvation were up.

How do you guys manage your threat during that fight?
#1698SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
Originally Posted by Svetozar View Post
Tonight I raided Void Reaver for the first time.

During the fight, I had to stop dealing damage 6 times for 10-15 sec each time to get down on the aggro list. Even that, I was at the very top of the aggro list during the whole fight and finished only 11th on the damage done.

I must say I didnt have enchance shaman in my group and Fanaticism and Blessing of Salvation were up.

How do you guys manage your threat during that fight?

Any fight with an aggro dump like this is going to be a problem, but if you didn't have windfury (or were you getting it from a resto shaman) then your tanks need to step it up. On VR, I typically wait a few seconds like normal, then pump out as much damage as I possibly can before the tanks start getting knocked back too badly. Every hunter should be misdirecting to one of the tanks every chance they get too. We toyed around with soulstoning me, and I would DI the dps warrior, and the enhancement shaman would intentionally pull aggro then ankh. Personally, I just take a nice big break once I hit the ceiling, only hitting to refresh judgements and then going all out again when I've got some breathing room again.
#1699SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bathoz
I do spot healing on the melee group (though never myself) when my threat is getting too high.

The other thing to try, is convince your guild to run a prot pally. If they are the first tank into VR, they'll generate so much threat that they'll be able to keep aggro for most of the fight - and give you that much more room to swing. Still, not a good fight for ret pallies - just dream about Solarian, you'll have more fun there.
#1700SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Martozo
I had "Run-time error '1004' - Method 'Range' of object'_Global' failed" error in Character sheet after pressing "Show Details", "Strength Gems", "Correct Gems" and in Item Calc sheet after pressing "Analyse Items","Clear Data" buttons.

Originally Posted by Teer View Post
If you are using Excel: go into Excel Options > Advanced > (scroll to the bottom) check "Transition Formula Entry"
When I did this, buttons in Character sheets works fine. But I'm still getting the same error in Item Calc sheet. Any advice how to solve this problem?
#1701SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zechaos
Originally Posted by Martozo View Post
When I did this, buttons in Character sheets works fine. But I'm still getting the same error in Item Calc sheet. Any advice how to solve this problem?
If you are using Office 07, You must check "Transition Formula Entry" for every spreedsheats in the file and save as .xlsm (excel using macros)
#1702SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Martozo
Originally Posted by Zechaos View Post
If you are using Office 07, You must check "Transition Formula Entry" for every spreedsheats in the file and save as .xlsm (excel using macros)
Thanks. Everything works fine now.
#1703SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by Svetozar View Post
Tonight I raided Void Reaver for the first time.

During the fight, I had to stop dealing damage 6 times for 10-15 sec each time to get down on the aggro list. Even that, I was at the very top of the aggro list during the whole fight and finished only 11th on the damage done.

I must say I didnt have enchance shaman in my group and Fanaticism and Blessing of Salvation were up.

How do you guys manage your threat during that fight?
Last time I fought VR, the enhancement shaman in my group totem twisted Tranquil Air in with windfury, and it worked quite well.

Also, [Prism of Inner Calm].
#1704SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Having windfury and bloodlust in the tank party helps as well. However, the blame is on the tanks if you were pulling threat without WF.
#1705SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Uniadept
prot Tank

Tonight I raided Void Reaver for the first time.

During the fight, I had to stop dealing damage 6 times for 10-15 sec each time to get down on the aggro list. Even that, I was at the very top of the aggro list during the whole fight and finished only 11th on the damage done.

I must say I didnt have enchance shaman in my group and Fanaticism and Blessing of Salvation were up.

How do you guys manage your threat during that fight?

Try to get your raid leader to let the protection paladin go first. (if you have one, if you don't have one... well then get one)
When I tank VR I normally have WF + holy aura = 80-90% of the fight I don't lose aggro. Then the druid OT takes them the rest of the 10-20% home.
#1706SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
Yeah, putting the Paladin tank in the DPS group in place of a Rogue makes Void Reaver a real delight. He gets Windfury, Heroism, and Sanctity Aura then; that's a winning formula for an absurdly high threat cap. The same combo is exceptionally useful on the Essence of Anger in Black Temple, too.

Last edited by Theras : 01/28/08 at 2:22 PM.
#1707SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Interesting post on the WoW forums on SoC and haste:
WoW Forums -> SoC and haste

His data suggests that SoC does in fact scale with haste.


His data:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7730/ppm1gz1.jpg

He said he used a 3.6 AS weapon hasted down to 3.31 AS. The screenshot shows his Procwatch data, copied below:

Hits: 1785
Procs: 778
Time: 98:38 (5918 seconds)
Hits/Proc: 2.3
Procs/Min: 7.8

For a 3.6 AS weapon swinging over 5918 seconds, we would expect:
Hits: 1644~
SoC Procs (using 7 PPM): 690
Proc/Min: 7

At 1785 swings over 5918 seconds, the data shows an effective AS of 3.315, which would be about ~9% haste. Swings increased to 1785/1644 = 108.6%, and Procs increased to 778/690 = 112~%.


Any thoughts?


EDIT: Anyone got WWS parses of Ret paladins using SoC in haste gear to share?
#1708SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I quickly took my trusty [Cold Iron Pick] and ran down to blasted lands to check out SoV (can't respec for SoC because its a raid night).

Using no passive haste (3.00 attack speed) there was a proc every swing without fail like usual. Using 76 passive haste rating ([Belt of Seething Fury] and [Pillager's Gauntlets]) to reduce the swing time to 2.86 seconds there were swings without procs, as expected by the old system. From this I can surmise that PPM mechanics still take the hasted weapon speed when determining proc chance.

I would call his numbers luck, but the sample space is too large. More testing needs to be done.
#1709SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Twid
This is our Gorefiend parse for 1/16 Wow Web Stats

Our ret paladin is using a Soul Cleaver with 69 haste rating (4.38% haste)

Originally Posted by Fiola View Post

EDIT: Anyone got WWS parses of Ret paladins using SoC in haste gear to share?
#1710SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
I myself don't have any haste gear, but I did a baseline parse tonight to determine if Seal of Command's actual proc rate is indeed 7%. I'll be leaving this on overnight, as well; this is just what I have so far.

Attack speed - 2.00
Melee strikes - 7950
Seal of Command procs - 1886
Time - 4 hours, 25 minutes, 0 seconds

A 7 PPM Seal would be a 23.33% proc rate at this attack speed, and my observed proc rate was 23.72% (which works out to 7.117 PPM). Of course, a sample of this size still has approximately a 1.10% margin of error, which is why I plan on engaging in further naked combat overnight tonight. I'm going to get in contact with the guild leadership and see if I can snake some rotting haste gear for scientific purposes this week, but I'd be loathe to spend DKP on an experiment when I don't plan on actually using any of it under any other circumstances.
#1711SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Maybe getting as many shamans as you can from your guild+friends list and getting a chain of bloodlusts would do it. With that much haste, the difference should be obvious fairly fast.
#1712SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3folsomdsf
Shamans and bloodlust

The WWS didn't help any unfortunately, and the time requirements to do 7000+ swings did not exist in the time frame between my post being copy/pasted here and the next post trying to refute it(also no screen shots or anything provided). The time did NOT exist between those posts for a paladin to test it with 7000+ swings, it just didn't exist and couldn't have been done, we're talking hours upon hours of sitting at your computer on autoattack refreshing seal of command and making sure not to break combat and never miss a swing, it's really tough. I had a hard time stomaching an hour and a half of it, it's my only limitation is that I eventaulyl have to go to work and can't continue the tests without fucking up the data by having to leave.


The WWS was WAAAAAAAAY too short of a sample and only about 50 swings, with isn't even 1/10th of the data I provided.

Shaman bloodlust would require me to find roughly 20 shamans to chain it the entire time rotating them in and out of my group, and also the problem comes that it has an effect similar to seal of crusader, not haste rating, which may ACTUALLY affect it a different way, the only reasonable way I can see doing this is by me buckling down and spending at least 20k swings per test group(roughly 18 1/2 hours of nothing but swinging and refreshing SoC).

I'm very glad you guys are very open to working with me on this though, on the wow forums it's turned quite ugly as we have an obviously carried through content ret pally trying to theory craft using this very threat as 'proof' without having any actual backup, while I've run a few tests hasted and unhasted that seem to be pointing me in a very very different direction(I will admit sample size was small for both tests but I have a job/life and I really need more time with them, but the data so far is 100% spot on).

My reasoning behind what is happening, Seal of command is NOT a similar proc to DST/Crusader/Battlemaster/etc. It is more akin to WF totem dropped by a shaman. I beleive when it is cast it is giving me a fixed % chance to proc based on my weapon speed that is a self buff, like WF totem is given the flat % chance to proc. This % chance to proc seems to be based on WEAPON speed and not ATTACK speed. Haste affect attack speed not weapon speed. This would make all the data I've collected so far make exact sense. Seal of command is obviously not a proc akin to other weapon enchanter, and it's not similar to WF weapon as the two stack and SoC can stack with other weapon imbue type things such as sharpening stone. I beleive it's SIMILAR to WF totem but still in a class all on it's own that was NOT affected by the mentioned haste PPM nerfs.

I will note that I am NOT the person to ask about ret pally DPS in any possible way, I am a protection paladin who hates to see DPS gear go to waste because no one wants it and will whore himself out for offspec loot. I do NOT claim to do good dps, and can barely break 1100 with WF totem atm in kara(I'm not allowed to respec in the higher instances yet, so I pretty much get WF totem and only that for dps increases). I DO have access to the haste gear though and the will to sit down and try and test this as I was ret before BC and would at some point in the future like to play with it. So please other high end pallies who have access to this gear, please help me out! I present to you my theory, pick at it, figure out why the fuck it's doing this and test it yourself with larger sample sizes if you can(don't make up random numbers like some people and claim you ran proc watch though! People have been doing that already, it's plain stupid and their math doesn't check out, like the amount of time not matching up with the amount of hasted swings they claim to have made!)

Talaran
Protection pally of Noctis Erus!
#1713SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3folsomdsf
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
I myself don't have any haste gear, but I did a baseline parse tonight to determine if Seal of Command's actual proc rate is indeed 7%. I'll be leaving this on overnight, as well; this is just what I have so far.

Attack speed - 2.00
Melee strikes - 7950
Seal of Command procs - 1886
Time - 4 hours, 25 minutes, 0 seconds

A 7 PPM Seal would be a 23.33% proc rate at this attack speed, and my observed proc rate was 23.72% (which works out to 7.117 PPM). Of course, a sample of this size still has approximately a 1.10% margin of error, which is why I plan on engaging in further naked combat overnight tonight. I'm going to get in contact with the guild leadership and see if I can snake some rotting haste gear for scientific purposes this week, but I'd be loathe to spend DKP on an experiment when I don't plan on actually using any of it under any other circumstances.
This would be so easy if we could find a weapon to swing at 8.57 attack speed(100% chance to proc) per swing. Your data seems so far fairly consitent with mine for unhasted procs, so good stuff right there, mine was -1% or so the other way(against + or - 1% error or so) so we've definately determined base proc. My hasted data seems to show an oddity in the way haste and SoC works.

I did manage to make a shaman bloodlust my earlier to see what it would do to SoC and it seemed to not affect the proc rate at all, I was still swinging away with the same chance, but again this isn't haste rating and I had an extremely tiny sample, I might have just been lucky.
#1714SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
Any help on useful macro's to use? Castsequence does not work for anything worthwhile, so basically i'm stuck not wanting to use any macros, because they don't really seem to be anything but a bother.
#1715SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
A new addition to the known issues thread on the WoW Forums:

"-Libram of Avengement is applying it's buff when auto-attacks refresh judgements. "

It had to end eventually.
#1716SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by folsomdsf View Post
The WWS didn't help any unfortunately, and the time requirements to do 7000+ swings did not exist in the time frame between my post being copy/pasted here and the next post trying to refute it(also no screen shots or anything provided). The time did NOT exist between those posts for a paladin to test it with 7000+ swings, it just didn't exist and couldn't have been done, we're talking hours upon hours of sitting at your computer on autoattack refreshing seal of command and making sure not to break combat and never miss a swing, it's really tough.
All I said was that SoV still acted the same way as it always had. It is a perfect 20 PPM. You will always have a proc with a 3.00 speed weapon. Because of that all you need is to see 1 autoattack where there is not a SoV proc using haste gear. That one attack proves that it is still the new weapon speed that determines proc chance. You don't need 7000 swings to prove that and frankly I don't have the time. But if you really want a WWS/SS of it check the old Ret Pally thread around page 70 when I first tested this.

SoC might be different, I don't know. But this does lend a lot of support to the old idea that PPM mechanics take the weapon speed after haste when determining proc chances.
#1717SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
All I said was that SoV still acted the same way as it always had. It is a perfect 20 PPM. You will always have a proc with a 3.00 speed weapon. Because of that all you need is to see 1 autoattack where there is not a SoV proc using haste gear. That one attack proves that it is still the new weapon speed that determines proc chance. You don't need 7000 swings to prove that and frankly I don't have the time. But if you really want a WWS/SS of it check the old Ret Pally thread around page 70 when I first tested this.

SoC might be different, I don't know. But this does lend a lot of support to the old idea that PPM mechanics take the weapon speed after haste when determining proc chances.
/shrug


For all we know, SoC *is* on different mechanics.


After all, SoB procs behave like SoC procs in many ways - but cannot proc JoW/weapon procs. SoC procs can. Using SoB to prove that SoC can't proc JoW wouldn't be true.


EDIT:
Your test shows that SoV gets reduced proc chance (same PPM) when hasted via trinket. His test shows that SoC gets same proc chance (higher PPM) when using haste gear.

If we can repeat his test, that tells us that SoC does in fact scale with haste. (Theras's test showing us a base PPM for SoC ~10% lower than the SoC haste test)

EDITx2:
My bad, was thinking of your earlier test for 2.2.

Last edited by Fiola : 01/29/08 at 2:02 PM.
#1718SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
EDIT:
Your test shows that SoV gets reduced proc chance (same PPM) when hasted via trinket. His test shows that SoC gets same proc chance (higher PPM) when using haste gear.
The quick test I did yesterday was using passive haste gear ([Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Belt of Seething Fury]). If you guys need it I'll grab a test after the realms come back up later and get a WWS/Procwatch SS. Like I said though we need more testing before we can call anything on this.

*shrug*
#1719SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
On paladins EU forums happened to appear very well formulated idea why SoC do not need to work like other PPM based procs, that provide buffs. The explanation given by Axone is just an idea, but will as well explain why SoV testing would not be valid for SoC.

Originally Posted by Axone
All the talk about "PPM" might have caused some people to go overboard and blatantly assume that because SoC also "uses PPM" then it will also be affected.

However, there is an important difference between procs like SoC and procs like Dragonspine Trophy.

Many weapon enchants/trinkets/etc procs a buff that lasts a set amount of time. The point of having a fixed proc rate on such an effect would be to ensure that it on average is up a fixed time fraction. The Dragonspine Trophy buff for example, should on average be up 25% of the time, regardless of attack speed.

Haste circumvented this intended since the proc chance was calculated using the base weapon speed rather than the "hasted" attack speed. Thus many proc based buffs were more beneficial for people stacking haste rating which obviously wasn't intended. This was indeed a fix rather than a nerf.

I believe that the changes to use the actual weapon speed rather than the base weapon speed ONLY were made for procs that triggers time limited buffs, e.g Dragonspine Trophy, Mongoose etc.

Even though Seal of Command uses a fixed proc rate it doesn't proc a time limited buff and therefore I find it unlikely that it would have been affected by these changes.
#1720SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
"-Libram of Avengement is applying it's buff when auto-attacks refresh judgements. "

It had to end eventually.
Totem twisting has been a known issue for over three months, and of course no fix yet. However, the Libram bug is an easier bug to fix .
#1721SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
So following this haste/soc discussion.. in patch xyz when they changed trinket/enchant/weapon proc's to be based off our hasted weapon speed rather then the base weapon speed (as previously) we all assumed SoC was affected.

7000 swings seems to prove otherwise? I'm interested in seeing Theras' results next and I guess we need to look at closely how haste/soc is being handled in the dps spreadsheet.
#1722SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Just went to outlands, with haste + expersise gear ( i didn't even want dodge/parry on my recap) and hited on of those inmortals mobs for 30:26.

I had enough haste to get my 3.8 weapon to 3.45speed, i got 530 hits/crits in those 30:26 min, no parry or dodge, as you can see, the efect of haste on my weapon was perfect as normal.
On the other had, i only got 219 SoC procs out of those 530 hits/crits, at 7 PPM the number should be 223 procs, but since PPM efects are irregular, is normal to get some small variations... just like i did.

Haste didn't affect my SoC PPM on any way


Sure, is not a big test, but i won't waste more than 30min to prove something thats so freaking clear: Haste does not affect SoC at all.
#1723SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Animosis
Lately, I have been finding myself feeling pleased with my gear direction and choices only to be disappointed when viewing the WWS reports from my latest foray into BT. As most can see from my armory, my raid leader still isn't completely sold on bringing a Ret pally to all boss encounters, so my gear upgrade options are lackluster at best. At this point I basically get to see Naj'entus up through Akama and then Winterchill through Kaz'Rogal.

I know that weapons are one of the biggest boons to our DPS but I can't seem to get my hands on a decent upgrade since I'm locked out of Archimonde, RoS, and Gorefiend. Basically, what I'm looking for are some suggestions and ideas on how I can improve my personal DPS with the gear I have currently (and some badge upgrades later on). Below is my latest WWS encompassing the entire raid time. What am I doing right? More importantly, what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time on Maxdps.com doing research and theorycrafting so I have a decent idea of what path I need to be taking, I think I'm just finding myself discouraged that the road has so much resistance.

WWS Loading...

Last edited by Animosis : 01/30/08 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Forgot WWS link
#1724SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
Just went to outlands, with haste + expersise gear ( i didn't even want dodge/parry on my recap) and hited on of those inmortals mobs for 30:26.

I had enough haste to get my 3.8 weapon to 3.45speed, i got 530 hits/crits in those 30:26 min, no parry or dodge, as you can see, the efect of haste on my weapon was perfect as normal.
On the other had, i only got 219 SoC procs out of those 530 hits/crits, at 7 PPM the number should be 223 procs, but since PPM efects are irregular, is normal to get some small variations... just like i did.

Haste didn't affect my SoC PPM on any way


Sure, is not a big test, but i won't waste more than 30min to prove something thats so freaking clear: Haste does not affect SoC at all.
If haste does effect SoC's proc rate, the expected number of procs is 213 (40.25% chance to proc per swing). If haste does not effect SoC's proc rate, the expected number of procs is 235 (44.33% chance to proc per swing). If that was a large enough sample size to say anything (it isn't anywhere close to large enough), it'd point towards Haste affecting SoC.
#1725SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kazekan
Originally Posted by Animosis View Post
Lately, I have been finding myself feeling pleased with my gear direction and choices only to be disappointed when viewing the WWS reports from my latest foray into BT. As most can see from my armory, my raid leader still isn't completely sold on bringing a Ret pally to all boss encounters, so my gear upgrade options are lackluster at best. At this point I basically get to see Naj'entus up through Akama and then Winterchill through Kaz'Rogal.

I know that weapons are one of the biggest boons to our DPS but I can't seem to get my hands on a decent upgrade since I'm locked out of Archimonde, RoS, and Gorefiend. Basically, what I'm looking for are some suggestions and ideas on how I can improve my personal DPS with the gear I have currently (and some badge upgrades later on). Below is my latest WWS encompassing the entire raid time. What am I doing right? More importantly, what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time on Maxdps.com doing research and theorycrafting so I have a decent idea of what path I need to be taking, I think I'm just finding myself discouraged that the road has so much resistance.

WWS Loading...
One thing you guys can do to improve your WWS reports is to get enough people sending in their combat logs to get a REAL reading of what everyone is doing. See all those %'s under Pres.? For the entire night those should be at least 90% and up, not somewhere in the mid-50's. On boss fights when people are (generally) closer together, it should be even higher. Did you guys seriously swap out 7 different people over the course of the night? O_o

As far as gear goes, put some blue gems in your belt, and take out that AGI gem please >< If you're hard up on gear because of raiding, get in a decent 5-man arena team and grind out some arena points. If you're not busy raiding, you should be busy doing something if you want to be taken seriously. An upgrade to your weapon would be huge, amongst other things of course.

All in all, from what I can see of your gear, you'll definitely need some more upgrades before you can contend in Hyjal/BT progression raids. A buddy of mine is in mostly PvP gear, and is pumping out 1200 DPS in SSC/TK, so hop to it!
#1726SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Shalymar
Originally Posted by Animosis View Post
Lately, I have been finding myself feeling pleased with my gear direction and choices only to be disappointed when viewing the WWS reports from my latest foray into BT. As most can see from my armory, my raid leader still isn't completely sold on bringing a Ret pally to all boss encounters, so my gear upgrade options are lackluster at best. At this point I basically get to see Naj'entus up through Akama and then Winterchill through Kaz'Rogal.

I know that weapons are one of the biggest boons to our DPS but I can't seem to get my hands on a decent upgrade since I'm locked out of Archimonde, RoS, and Gorefiend. Basically, what I'm looking for are some suggestions and ideas on how I can improve my personal DPS with the gear I have currently (and some badge upgrades later on). Below is my latest WWS encompassing the entire raid time. What am I doing right? More importantly, what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time on Maxdps.com doing research and theorycrafting so I have a decent idea of what path I need to be taking, I think I'm just finding myself discouraged that the road has so much resistance.

WWS Loading...
Your gear is very similar to mine. I have the exact same problem, my weapon is garbage, so I decide to drop Jewel crafting and pick up blacksmithing (276 in 3 days). Now I plan to go Hammer smith and make Thunder->Deep Thunder->StormHerald. I am not in MH/BT yet, but looking over the weapons I can get, there is only two, World Breaker and Twin Blade, I felt I could level BS and make the StormHerald before I would get either of those weapons. I don’t know if this is idea for you but I got tired of using a crap weapon and only seeing my dps get to just below 600 on raids.

I would also like any advice that would improve my dps output. Here is my latest wws log

I have a Darkmoon Crusader card waiting to turn in on Feb 4th to replace my hourglass trinket.

Last edited by Shalymar : 01/30/08 at 2:10 PM.
#1727SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Animosis View Post
Lately, I have been finding myself feeling pleased with my gear direction and choices only to be disappointed when viewing the WWS reports from my latest foray into BT. As most can see from my armory, my raid leader still isn't completely sold on bringing a Ret pally to all boss encounters, so my gear upgrade options are lackluster at best. At this point I basically get to see Naj'entus up through Akama and then Winterchill through Kaz'Rogal.

I know that weapons are one of the biggest boons to our DPS but I can't seem to get my hands on a decent upgrade since I'm locked out of Archimonde, RoS, and Gorefiend. Basically, what I'm looking for are some suggestions and ideas on how I can improve my personal DPS with the gear I have currently (and some badge upgrades later on). Below is my latest WWS encompassing the entire raid time. What am I doing right? More importantly, what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time on Maxdps.com doing research and theorycrafting so I have a decent idea of what path I need to be taking, I think I'm just finding myself discouraged that the road has so much resistance.

WWS Loading...
As a melee class your damage is very largely dependant on your gear level. The better your gear gets, the more DPS you can throw out, and it scales very well. By allowing you to gear up the raid will be benefiting much more than by denying you major upgrades. That being said, you need to also do the footwork to get to the level where your gear isn't holding the raid back severely.

Looking at your WWS (specifically the Naj'entus fight, since its the closest thing to a tank and spank) I see that you don't have an enhancement shaman. Having your Resto dropping Windfury is the right idea here, but the additional bonus from SoE and UR are major DPS boosts. If you are in a position to do so recruiting an enhancement shaman will more than justify the atunement runs (atunement runs also give you the chance to pick up gear you may need).

Even considering the shield and possible Spines, you also don't seem to be hitting as many CS and SoC procs as you should. With a active time of just under 5 minutes, you should be seeing nearly 50 Crusader Strikes. Accounting for bubbles and spines taking off roughly a minute of DPS time, you are still missing roughly 17 Crusader Strikes. That ability should always be on cooldown unless there are some very strange circumstances. The same reasoning applies to SoC. If you have Quartz or some other swing timer mod make sure the seal is always active for your next autoswing. Two other little nitpicky things from the Naj'entus fight. Don't bother healing. You're just burning your own mana and reseting your swing timer. Healthstone, health pot, bandage if its absolutely required. Your mana is much better off spent elsewhere. Secondly, don't use HoW. If you have the extra mana to burn throw down some Consecrations. HoW also breaks your Swing timer and kills your DPS.

On to gear.

You have the S3 gloves and heroic Libram, so you're on the right track at the least.

I would suggest (if possible) upgrading all your gear to Season 3 at the least, Tier 5/6-level epics preferably. Even heroic badge rewards, though not particularly well itemized for Ret pallys, would help. Not only will this increase your AP nicely (something you are a little low on) but it will also give you more passive hit on your gear, allowing you to use better rings/neck. The Kara rep ring in particular is painfully bad for paladins, and should be the first thing you dump when you have extra hit to compensate. Don't rule out crafted items either, [Red Belt of Battle] in particular will last you through most of the remainder of the game.

For weapon upgrades your best bet is either getting a Season 2/3 weapon or a [World Breaker] off Fathom Lord (not sure if you still run T5 or not). Other than that, without dropping your professions to powerlevel Blacksmithing (I don't recommend this unless you are obscenely rich or have lots of free time), your weapon choices are limited unless you can convince your RL to allow you to sit in for RoS/Archimonde. Hammer of the Naaru is not a good weapon for a Ret Paladin IMO, its much more itemized towards Holy pallys for a grinding weapon.

I know you're really not looking for gear advice, but the sad truth is that gearing up is the single most important thing towards improving your DPS once you nail the rotation. A paladin just can't compete when he is terribly undergeared.
#1728SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Animosis
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
As a melee class your damage is very largely dependant on your gear level. The better your gear gets, the more DPS you can throw out, and it scales very well. By allowing you to gear up the raid will be benefiting much more than by denying you major upgrades. That being said, you need to also do the footwork to get to the level where your gear isn't holding the raid back severely.

Looking at your WWS (specifically the Naj'entus fight, since its the closest thing to a tank and spank) I see that you don't have an enhancement shaman. Having your Resto dropping Windfury is the right idea here, but the additional bonus from SoE and UR are major DPS boosts. If you are in a position to do so recruiting an enhancement shaman will more than justify the atunement runs (atunement runs also give you the chance to pick up gear you may need).

Even considering the shield and possible Spines, you also don't seem to be hitting as many CS and SoC procs as you should. With a active time of just under 5 minutes, you should be seeing nearly 50 Crusader Strikes. Accounting for bubbles and spines taking off roughly a minute of DPS time, you are still missing roughly 17 Crusader Strikes. That ability should always be on cooldown unless there are some very strange circumstances. The same reasoning applies to SoC. If you have Quartz or some other swing timer mod make sure the seal is always active for your next autoswing. Two other little nitpicky things from the Naj'entus fight. Don't bother healing. You're just burning your own mana and reseting your swing timer. Healthstone, health pot, bandage if its absolutely required. Your mana is much better off spent elsewhere. Secondly, don't use HoW. If you have the extra mana to burn throw down some Consecrations. HoW also breaks your Swing timer and kills your DPS.

On to gear.

You have the S3 gloves and heroic Libram, so you're on the right track at the least.

I would suggest (if possible) upgrading all your gear to Season 3 at the least, Tier 5/6-level epics preferably. Even heroic badge rewards, though not particularly well itemized for Ret pallys, would help. Not only will this increase your AP nicely (something you are a little low on) but it will also give you more passive hit on your gear, allowing you to use better rings/neck. The Kara rep ring in particular is painfully bad for paladins, and should be the first thing you dump when you have extra hit to compensate. Don't rule out crafted items either, [Red Belt of Battle] in particular will last you through most of the remainder of the game.

For weapon upgrades your best bet is either getting a Season 2/3 weapon or a [World Breaker] off Fathom Lord (not sure if you still run T5 or not). Other than that, without dropping your professions to powerlevel Blacksmithing (I don't recommend this unless you are obscenely rich or have lots of free time), your weapon choices are limited unless you can convince your RL to allow you to sit in for RoS/Archimonde. Hammer of the Naaru is not a good weapon for a Ret Paladin IMO, its much more itemized towards Holy pallys for a grinding weapon.

I know you're really not looking for gear advice, but the sad truth is that gearing up is the single most important thing towards improving your DPS once you nail the rotation. A paladin just can't compete when he is terribly undergeared.
On the contrary, any advice is good advice, gear or otherwise. Sadly, we no longer run the T5 content anymore and it took my guild leadership almost three months to reply to my pitch for having a raiding Ret pally. By that time, we had cleared SSK & TK and nobody wanted to go back. I've already had to face the fact that my upgrades are going to come from arena and badge rewards, but that progress is so slow comparatively speaking. I've already seen a CE go to our Prot pally and the ToD go to our warrior maintank since I wasn't in the raid to bid on them.

There is bias, to be sure, and I'm getting a surprising amount of hate from our other pallies (bizzarre considering you'd think they would want to see Ret do well). Sometimes I feel as if I'm swimming upstream in being so far behind the gear curve that I can't be risked to attend all but the most certain of farmed content, which provides minimal upgrades anyway. I have been provided with some great advice by other good raiders, so my goal is just to baby-step my way to competitiveness.
#1729SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Animosis View Post
There is bias, to be sure, and I'm getting a surprising amount of hate from our other pallies (bizzarre considering you'd think they would want to see Ret do well). Sometimes I feel as if I'm swimming upstream in being so far behind the gear curve that I can't be risked to attend all but the most certain of farmed content, which provides minimal upgrades anyway. I have been provided with some great advice by other good raiders, so my goal is just to baby-step my way to competitiveness.
Keep your head up and enjoy playing your Ret Paladin. That is what I am doing. Don’t let those other paladins discourage you. IMHO it will always be an uphill battle to justify our existences. I haven’t experience any hatred from others… yet, but I am sure there are some who question my viability on a raid which is fine. All we can do is show them what we offer to a raid and hopefully they will see that and change their minds. I found that is the quickest way to silence the critics.
#1730SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Just as a Seal of Command update: My overnight test got buggered up so I have to go do some log splitting to remove any non-SoC time. It's also not looking like I'm going to get much for haste gear from raids, so I'm gathering up some badges to get the Leather haste gear from G'eras. It may take a couple days, especially since I miss Karazhan every week.

Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
Just went to outlands, with haste + expersise gear ( i didn't even want dodge/parry on my recap) and hited on of those inmortals mobs for 30:26.

I had enough haste to get my 3.8 weapon to 3.45speed, i got 530 hits/crits in those 30:26 min, no parry or dodge, as you can see, the efect of haste on my weapon was perfect as normal.
On the other had, i only got 219 SoC procs out of those 530 hits/crits, at 7 PPM the number should be 223 procs, but since PPM efects are irregular, is normal to get some small variations... just like i did.

Haste didn't affect my SoC PPM on any way


Sure, is not a big test, but i won't waste more than 30min to prove something thats so freaking clear: Haste does not affect SoC at all.
That's not even close to enough data to validate or refute the haste theory. 10k swings is where you start getting accurate data, and 20k+ is about what I'm shooting for.
#1731SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cathmor
Not to sidetrack the haste discussion, but I've got a gearing question. My guild is going to start BT very soon, as we just cleared to Azgalor last Monday, so I started thinking about end-game gear setups and gemming. The issue of my cloak is on my mind.

Right now, I use [Cloak of Darkness] with a Bold Living Ruby in it. My original plan was to ditch it when I got around to grabbing a [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]. Even though the hit will be wasted, it's an upgrade of ~10 AP or so even after buffs. However...

When I start seeing some epic gems tossed my way, and I achieve my wishlist gear set, I'll have a total of 1 blue gem socket (in my [Red Belt of Battle]) on my gear and a metric ton of yellow sockets.

Scenario 1: I'll need at least 2 blue-capable gems, most likely [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst], in my gear to keep my [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] meta gem active. My thinking is that if I socket an amethyst and a pyrestone into the RBoB, and keep my current cape and stick an amethyst in there, socket 2 [Inscribed Pyrestone] into the [Dreadboots of the Legion], and socket [Bold Crimson Spinel] into every other slot (helm, shoulders, chest, bracers) regardless of socket bonus and socket color, I'll come out ahead of...

Scenario 2: Socket the RBoB to color with an amethyst and pyrestone, socket the dreadboots with pyrestones, and replace one of the spinels in the rest of my gear with an amethyst, donning the Shadowmoon cape and dropping the [Cloak of Darkness].

Scenario 3: Socket the RBoB with [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] and [Jagged Seaspray Emerald], dreadboots with pyrestones, and wear the Shadowmoon cape.

I'm thinking that scenario 1 is the best way to go, but scenario 3 has merit. What do you think?

Last edited by Cathmor : 01/30/08 at 6:11 PM.
#1732SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
I'm thinking that scenario 1 is the best way to go. What do you think?
Ummmm, as for the Cloak of Darkness... what a lot of people I notice doing (including me) is getting the 5 str / 4 Agi gem that is Purple, and put it in that socket.

Its one of the best possible gems you can use, and in one of the best possible items and that lets you use a purple in your RBoB to get your meta, and the rest of your sockets can be pyrestone / crimson spinel.

I think the 5 str / 4 agi gem comes from heroic slave pens.... might be steamvaults though... definitely a coilfang though.
#1733SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Moshne
I'm really surprised that [Shifting Tanzanite] hasn't been fixed yet, its clearly itemized outside the gem naming/stating convention.

It comes from Heroic Steamvaults. Looking at the numbers, you would come out ahead using the BT back piece, the misitemized gem and a green gem in the belt to fulfill both requirements while using the (presumed) higher DPS back.

Last edited by Moshne : 01/30/08 at 6:44 PM.
#1734SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Scenario 3: Socket the RBoB with [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] and [Jagged Seaspray Emerald], dreadboots with pyrestones, and wear the Shadowmoon cape.

I'm thinking that scenario 1 is the best way to go, but scenario 3 has merit. What do you think?
Typically I ignore all gem set bonuses unless it's a str bonus, basically socket jagged Seaspray Emerald x2 then strength in everything else. You can easily theorycraft the difference using wowequip and the dps spreadsheet and I've yet to see matching colors for set bonuses come out on top of jagged x2 rest str. However it's going to depend on your gear.
#1735SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
That's not even close to enough data to validate or refute the haste theory. 10k swings is where you start getting accurate data, and 20k+ is about what I'm shooting for.
After over 30min of perfect dps, i got 0 PPM increase on SOC, to the contrary, it was a bit lower than the suposed 7 PPM. Thats good enough for me... it would take around 40hrs to get a 20k hit sample, thats insane and not needed, but go ahead if you want.
#1736SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
The difference of having 1 less slot for a spinel is going to be fairly negligible. The question really boils down to is if you can use the extra hit provided by the SMD cape to replace weaker pieces that you rely on to be hit capped. According to the spread sheet, the [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] is 2 less dps than [Cloak of Darkness] with a [Bold Crimson Spinel]. However, if you took the SMD cape and replaced your [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] or your [Bracers of Eradication] you would probably see a larger dps increase. Of course, this all varies depending on what upgrades you get. Don't make my early mistake of discounting items with hit on it because it was seemingly a sidegrade (while being hitcapped).
#1737SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cathmor
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
The difference of having 1 less slot for a spinel is going to be fairly negligible. The question really boils down to is if you can use the extra hit provided by the SMD cape to replace weaker pieces that you rely on to be hit capped. According to the spread sheet, the [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] is 2 less dps than [Cloak of Darkness] with a [Bold Crimson Spinel]. However, if you took the SMD cape and replaced your [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] or your [Bracers of Eradication] you would probably see a larger dps increase. Of course, this all varies depending on what upgrades you get. Don't make my early mistake of discounting items with hit on it because it was seemingly a sidegrade (while being hitcapped).
Make no mistake about it, I planned on replacing my current bracers and my kara ring. I was regarding the hit on Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape as largely negligible, as the gear set I'm aiming for will probably have enough hit dripping from it that I'll be able to drop Precision all together and achieve the hit cap from gear alone.

In case you're wondering, I had set up a Warcrafter profile with my "wishlist" gear a while back, found here. There have been changes to what I want to do to the gear since then, but all the actual armor pieces are basically the same. Only pieces of gear I'm going back and forth on are the cape ([Cloak of Darkness] vs [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]) and legs ([Legguards of Endless Rage] vs. [Leggings of Divine Retribution]).

I was not aware of the classification of that Steamvaults gem as a purple. I'll have to grab that next chance I get, thanks for the heads up!

EDIT: In case anyone was wondering further, I played with Warcrafter some more and came up with this for my end-game all plate ideal gear set.

Last edited by Cathmor : 01/31/08 at 2:37 PM.
#1738SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
After over 30min of perfect dps, i got 0 PPM increase on SOC, to the contrary, it was a bit lower than the suposed 7 PPM. Thats good enough for me... it would take around 40hrs to get a 20k hit sample, thats insane and not needed, but go ahead if you want.
Given that we know str and crit are still going to be better per item point than haste regardless of the result I wouldn't spend that long testing it either
#1739SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Given that we know str and crit are still going to be better per item point than haste regardless of the result I wouldn't spend that long testing it either

Actually, if haste would afect SOC, only STR would still be better (and WE, wich is rare), haste would beat Crit, meaning that str/haste plates would actually be better than str/crit ones.
#1740SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
After over 30min of perfect dps, i got 0 PPM increase on SOC, to the contrary, it was a bit lower than the suposed 7 PPM. Thats good enough for me... it would take around 40hrs to get a 20k hit sample, thats insane and not needed, but go ahead if you want.
The duration of the test doesn't matter, it's the number of swings. Only 530 swings leaves a pretty huge margin of error, and when we're testing something with minute benefits like haste rating, it's important to be precise. It's really unfortunate that we don't have any mechanisms to provide a perfect 100% proc rate, because it would be very easy to refute the theory then.

It's also only 10 hours if you're testing using a [Mag'hari Battleaxe]. That's certainly not bad.
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
Actually, if haste would afect SOC, only STR would still be better (and WE, wich is rare), haste would beat Crit, meaning that str/haste plates would actually be better than str/crit ones.
This is why I think it's important to test this fully and completely, because if the theory has any merit, it's going to dramatically alter the way we think about our gear.
#1741SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shikara
Hey all, i finally got around to registering for EJ. I've been a long time reader but now i'm finally posting! First of all props to Crom on an awesome thread i've read pretty much every page since its inception.

With sunwell approaching i'm trying to squeeze the most i can out of my rather lackluster gear in keeping up with other raid members etc. So i'm looking for a couple of names of people who i can armory, check their itemisation gemming etc (top gear levels) i dont have access to SSC or TK loot just BT Hyjal. I'm saving for a S3 weapon atm since nothing ever drops from Archi.

Also i just made a quick vid on the fly of a recent Shade kill. I kinda just hit fraps to test out my new comp so i'm not doing anything special, i fuck up rotations etc but its about indicative of what i do (on that fight at least) I'd appreciate if people could have a look, constructively criticise if you see anything i could improve, cycles etc etc. (i recorded in 1280x960 to test my comp so i had to compress the shit out of it to make it small so dont watch the stream the dl is only 30meg. Also, my ui was borked that night so i had to have party frames and the blizzard raid frame dragged out for groups 5 and 3 so excuse the clutter)

Shadeprelim.avi - FileFront.com

Anyway, good to finally be posting!

Ciao
#1742SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Try to replace your helm with something with a meta slot. RED is a massive DPS increase. Regarding gems, since 100% Vengeance uptime is so easy now, you'll get more mileage out of strength than crit. Spinels might be hard to come by, but pyrestones(5str/5crit) in your boots and bracers would be better than 10 crit gems. +6 all stats on your chest instead of 6mp5 would be much better.

Other than that, haste is amazing as a Blood Elf. Band of Devastation should be easy to get at this point. Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring and Signet of Primal Wrath are the only rings better than Devastation for us. Belt of Seething Fury would be a good upgrade for you as well.

Regarding weapons, Soul Cleaver is almost as good as S3 while Torch is far better. So even leaving aside CE, you have these 2 available. Not sure if it's worth spending points on S3 when you have access to these.
#1743SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Smithist
Originally Posted by Moshne View Post
I'm really surprised that [Shifting Tanzanite] hasn't been fixed yet, its clearly itemized outside the gem naming/stating convention...
I was catching up on this last page and wanted to point out that it's not a bug. Many of the heroic gems are uniquely itemized intentionally ([Effulgent Chrysoprase] for example).
#1744SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Smithist View Post
I was catching up on this last page and wanted to point out that it's not a bug. Many of the heroic gems are uniquely itemized intentionally ([Effulgent Chrysoprase] for example).
Sure, [Effulgent Chrysoprase] is fairly unique, but it's classified as green (yellow/blue combo gem) and has a yellow stat (defense) and a blue stat (mana/5). [Shifting Tanzanite], however, has a purple classification (red/blue combo gem) with 2 traditionally red stats - agility and strength. They're both unique, but the tanzanite is an oddity all of it's own, having a purple classification with no blue stat.

On a completely different note: how many of you have specced out of Benediction as of 2.3, and do any of you miss it? I've grown tired of asking for 10 min mights from the raid biatch imp. might holy paladin so I'm thinking I'll just do it myself, just wanted to see if any of you fine ladies and gents notice a huge difference with/without Benediction considering the improved 80% Sanctified Judgement talent in PvE.
#1745SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Shikara
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Try to replace your helm with something with a meta slot. RED is a massive DPS increase. Regarding gems, since 100% Vengeance uptime is so easy now, you'll get more mileage out of strength than crit. Spinels might be hard to come by, but pyrestones(5str/5crit) in your boots and bracers would be better than 10 crit gems. +6 all stats on your chest instead of 6mp5 would be much better.

Other than that, haste is amazing as a Blood Elf. Band of Devastation should be easy to get at this point. Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring and Signet of Primal Wrath are the only rings better than Devastation for us. Belt of Seething Fury would be a good upgrade for you as well.

Regarding weapons, Soul Cleaver is almost as good as S3 while Torch is far better. So even leaving aside CE, you have these 2 available. Not sure if it's worth spending points on S3 when you have access to these.
Yeah getting a meta helm would be nice but none ever fkn drop also we have almost 0 orange gems and tons of yellows so those crits will do fine. no 6 stats on chest because i dont want to fork out 300g vs free.

With the haste stuff - i have a belt of seething fury and i'm slowly working on more but i'm not using the belt atm because i remember reading something a while back that you see diminished effect on haste items if you only have one or two. (this doesnt make sense to me but i followed it anyway) a lot of the +haste items seem to sacrifice a lot of other stats etc. So its really hard to appreciate the true value of these items. Also with SOB only making up like 19% of my DPS is haste really going to make that much of a difference versus raw power on whites and CS's

(also, i absolutley hate pvp as ret so spending my arena points on pve gear is np)

EDIT - I crunched a few numbers real quick (with Vindicator's belt vs Belt of Seething Fury (38 haste rating taking my weap speed from 3.6 to 3.58)

10 min Fight of constant dps (which you rarely see) - 3.6 speed weapon = 166.7 swings vs 3.52 speed weapon - 170.5 swings. 4 Extra swings over 10 minutes with 4 extra SOB procs, assuming a 30% crit rate you're looking at about an extra 2.8k damage... doesnt seem like much at all tbh.
-

Last edited by Shikara : 01/31/08 at 2:03 AM.
#1746SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
A slight update for the "best gear setup" list, used with the latest spreadsheet. This is for SoB.
Note that this is plate only, and makes sure that you have the gems to satisfy the meta requirements.

[Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] with Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, Glyph of the Outcast, 10 str
[Pauldrons of the Wardancer] with 10 str, 5 str/7 sta, greater inscription
[Lightbringer Breastplate] with 2x 10 str, 5 str/7 sta, exceptional stats
[Leggings of Divine Retribution] with nethercobra
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] with major strength
[Dreadboots of the Legion] with 2x 5 str/5 crit
[Red Belt of Battle] with 2x 10 str
[Furious Shackles] with 10 str, brawn
[Cloak of Fiends] with greater agility
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Cataclysm's Edge] with mongoose

Note that this does not provide the tier 6 2-piece bonus, if you want it the best way is to swap out the shoulders (and make sure you get a blue gem somewhere).
Enchant your rings with stats and use the red & yellow unique JC gems if you can.
#1747SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gormal
Why would you make a "best gear set" of plate, and ignore leather/mail? You can't disregard the fact that those items are better than plate for us. A quick glance shows that you picked a spell damage socket bonus over crit/str as well, so you're not on track here. It looks like you took the top items off of maxdps.com and made a post, rather than really itemize a set of gear, since I can see some swaps that would net blatantly higher dps.

Last edited by Gormal : 01/31/08 at 10:05 AM.
#1748SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Carpathia
According to the actual sheet, this composition should the best attainable dps gear for SoB. However, i'd still prefer two T6 for the first set bonus (which would be the shoulders and chest where the dps loss is as little as possible).

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras] <Glyph of Ferocity>, 12 Agi & 3% Increased Crit Dmg, 10 Str
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger] <Greater Inscription of the Blade>, 10 Str
[Midnight Chestguard] <Exceptional Stats>, 10 Str, 5 Str / 5 Crit, [Shifting Tanzanite]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution] <Nethercobra Leg Armor>
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] <Major Strength>
[Dreadboots of the Legion] <Dexterity>, 2x 5 Str / 5 Crit
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] 10 Str, 5 Str / 7 Stam
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] <Brawn>
[Cloak of Fiends] <Greater Agility>
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Libram of Avengement]
[Cataclysm's Edge] <Mongoose>

Last edited by Carpathia : 01/31/08 at 10:55 AM.
#1749SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
[Bow-stitched Leggings] should be the best if I'm not mistaken.
#1750SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Carpathia
[Leggings of Divine Retribution] surpasses them with 7dps, even when socketing 10str, 5str/5crit, Shifting Tanzanite ... at least according to the spreadsheet

edit: At bosses with 6.2k AF. At 7.7k bosses [Leggings of Divine Retribution] are still superior by 1dps

Last edited by Carpathia : 01/31/08 at 11:32 AM.
#1751SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gormal
Well, with the chest socketed as you've listed, it'd be 10str gems all the way. Now you've forced me to run the numbers again curse you! (If I'm wrong our survival hunter will have my heart for lunch.)

Edit: Vista just ate my spreadsheet, but even if they are a small dps loss (1-7), I think that the intellect makes up for it quite well.

Last edited by Gormal : 01/31/08 at 11:41 AM.
#1752SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
These "Ultimate" gear lists arent really useful as it depends of your playstyle, raid buffs, race etc. In addition, sunwell will be coming out soon, so these really aren't the "Ultimate" gear you can get =P
#1753SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
It was already stated that this set of gear was for SoB, and optimal buffs/playstyle are obviously assumed when talking about the optimal set of gear. As far as speculating on unreleased content, why not just ignore the spreadsheet entirely since WotLK will be out soon? This is a theorycrafting thread, get with it.
#1754SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
It was already stated that this set of gear was for SoB, and optimal buffs/playstyle are obviously assumed when talking about the optimal set of gear. As far as speculating on unreleased content, why not just ignore the spreadsheet entirely since WotLK will be out soon? This is a theorycrafting thread, get with it.
I understand your intention, but the spreadsheet is easy to use and tweak to your playstyle (mad props Bellator).

I dont think there is an "optimal" set of buffs that you can have, because you cant fit all the beneficial buffs you need into a raid/group due to different player specs, party limitations, and overall raid needs. For example, we run with a melee group consisting of Fury/Enhance/Pally/Rogue/Rogue or Feral; our raid also has a survival hunter and usually 4 pallys total for buffs with any hodgepodge of improved blessings. True, some buffs are more marginal that others, but it depends on your raid makeup.

Our shammy puts points into improved ghost wolf instead of imp totems. Believe me we want to strangle him.

If you want to go strictly for Epeen instead of raid function, stick a shadow priest/BM hunter and feral in for the rogues (who will need to spec hemo by the way), make the fury warr spec blood frenzy and lets dance. Hell why bring casters at all, just bring all hemo rogues to the raid =P. Well, a couple locks can come too.

As far as WOLK goes, its a LONG ways away. This is blizzard we are talking about, not the US Govt. They arent built for speed. Sunwell is a more realistic frontier where Im sure a lot of great gear upgrades will be. One of our mages is constantly complaining to to Vashj to get the robes, where Im sure sunwell will have something mo better.

Last edited by Saltycracker : 01/31/08 at 1:20 PM.
#1755SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
I'm hoping sunwell will have better off-set gear... especially trinket wise. ZA gear and the Darkmoon card are the best two trinkets ATM (assuming you don't have a DST... those never drop ). Also, horde pallies need a new libram very badly... using a blue libram from heroics as end-game is kinda annoying ;(
#1756SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
At least you have epic trinkets. I'm still rocking the [Abacus of Violent Odds] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. My guild leader is trying to convince me to do dual [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in my [Dreadboots of the Legion]. While the stats will end up the same if I do that and gem pure spinels in everything else once I get my desired gear set, I rather have the benefit of STR from [Inscribed Pyrestone] now. Seasprays just look so noob
#1757SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Aiko
At least you have epic trinkets.
At least you get to raid. I got invited to ZA for Zul'jin and place behind the Arms warrior(not slam spec) in dps a solid 6th, I think I have worn out my welcome in future raids. =(

I have a some questions regarding the Spreadsheet itemCalc. I put my current gear in, take off all buffs, except self applied, (sanctity, Might) It gives me Items that have SpD as being DPS upgrades, despite having lower str/crit/hit I have the Sheet set for SoB Rotation, I'm really looking for anyway to upgrade my DPS and the SpD gear is confusing. Any help on excluding SpD gear in ItemCalc would be Appreciated.

Last edited by Aiko : 01/31/08 at 5:38 PM.
#1758SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
It's also only 10 hours if you're testing using a [Mag'hari Battleaxe]. That's certainly not bad.
Isn't it the number of procs that matters for the sample size, not the number of swings? To take it to a ridiculous extreme, suppose you had a weapon that swung 10,000 times per second. After one second, you would have 10,000 swings and (probably) no procs. If the number of swings was the relevant factor, you'd then know that the proc rate was 0%. If it is the number of procs that matter, then the weapon speed has no effect on how long it takes to get an accurate sample.
#1759SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Aiko View Post
At least you get to raid. I got invited to ZA for Zul'jin and place behind the Arms warrior(not slam spec) in dps a solid 6th, I think I have worn out my welcome in future raids. =(
ZA's hard for me, especially if we're doing a timed run. Without a shaman your damage goes way down, and you become something of a liability, rather than an asset even with the judge, the blessings, and the aura. 25 mans you're much more likely to be able to perform up to par. I'd be sure to make that fact clear to your leadership, if they try to point out bad performance in a 10-man as a good reason not to take you along on a 25. (By the way, you seem to be missing a bit of hit, if your armory's got what you PvE in, not just PvP gear. Otherwise, don't mind me! )
#1760SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Aiko View Post
At least you get to raid. I got invited to ZA for Zul'jin and place behind the Arms warrior(not slam spec) in dps a solid 6th, I think I have worn out my welcome in future raids. =(

I have a some questions regarding the Spreadsheet itemCalc. I put my current gear in, take off all buffs, except self applied, (sanctity, Might) It gives me Items that have SpD as being DPS upgrades, despite having lower str/crit/hit I have the Sheet set for SoB Rotation, I'm really looking for anyway to upgrade my DPS and the SpD gear is confusing. Any help on excluding SpD gear in ItemCalc would be Appreciated.
10 mans are rough for a ret paladin. You dont get the proper buffs, and your judgements arent as effective for 10 people rather than 25. Bribe a shaman to drop you WF and you should see an improvement.

If you are using seal of blood, spell damage should be able to up your DPS more effective than SoC. Str and crit are usually better, but some spell damage gear is alright for hordies so I assume....
#1761SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dram
Seal of Blood doesn't have a coefficient, so SpD gear is less useful for a horde paladin. Also looking at your armoury, you should try and pick up a dps libram rather then using the healing one from Kara.
#1762SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fadaar
After seeing all the numbers and hardcore proof, I can only hope that Blizzard does something about the difference between Vengeance and Blood, seeing how Blood gives Horde ret paladins a huge advantage. Vengeance is nice in its own right for tanking since the judgements are quite large, but I'd still prefer SoB on my Alliance pally.
#1763SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Aiko
That is my current gear, and yes I'm missing hit, I'm half tempted to just re gem everything +hit.


I'm hoping to tag along on the next few Nalorakk Kills in hopes of getting the [Pauldrons of Primal Fury]
and gather enough Badges for [Chain of Unleashed Rage] and [Bloodthirster's Wargreaves] and according the the spreadsheet my largest DPS upgrade is the [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] so I'll have to try and convince them to take me to ZulJin again.

Also looking at your armoury, you should try and pick up a dps libram rather then using the healing one from Kara.
I have been trying to get a Heroic BF run going for two weeks......

Last edited by Aiko : 01/31/08 at 6:50 PM.
#1764SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
The duration of the test doesn't matter, it's the number of swings. Only 530 swings leaves a pretty huge margin of error, and when we're testing something with minute benefits like haste rating, it's important to be precise. It's really unfortunate that we don't have any mechanisms to provide a perfect 100% proc rate, because it would be very easy to refute the theory then.

It's also only 10 hours if you're testing using a [Mag'hari Battleaxe]. That's certainly not bad.


This is why I think it's important to test this fully and completely, because if the theory has any merit, it's going to dramatically alter the way we think about our gear.
A test like this ought to give a perfect example of a binomial distribution.

Binomial distribution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where the variance will be: "Number of swings" * "proc chance" ( 1- "proc chance")

Or for a 7 PPM occurance: 7 * "Test lenght" (1 - "proc chance")

To minimize the variance for a test of any given lenght it would be best to have a proc chance as close to 50% as possible, in other words using the slowest possible weapon.
#1765SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dram
Originally Posted by Aiko View Post
I have been trying to get a Heroic BF run going for two weeks......
As a stop-gap you can always try and get [Libram of Righteous Power] which is a quest reward in SMV.
#1766SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
My ZA group always has me with a Feral Druid and a Shaman, so I really con't complain
In our T5 gear we've managed to get the third timer, where I snagged what Maxdps.com is calling the best Retribution ring in the game, the [Signet of Primal Wrath].

I'm a bit critical of armor penetration since it only effects 70% of my damage output.

Anyone have some thoughts on this item?
#1767SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
My ZA group always has me with a Feral Druid and a Shaman, so I really con't complain
In our T5 gear we've managed to get the third timer, where I snagged what Maxdps.com is calling the best Retribution ring in the game, the [Signet of Primal Wrath].

I'm a bit critical of armor penetration since it only effects 70% of my damage output.

Anyone have some thoughts on this item?
I'm rather leery of maxdps calling it the best ring for retribution mainly because your returns from armor penetration relies on a number of factors (boss armor, debuffs available, how much armor pen you have). With [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] or [Band of Devastation] you have stats that will affect all or most of your damage no matter what the situation. I've read anecdotal accounts that armor pen sets do about the same dps as haste or normal sets, but I'd like to do the testing myself if I ever get enough gear.
#1768SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
At least you have epic trinkets. I'm still rocking the [Abacus of Violent Odds] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. My guild leader is trying to convince me to do dual [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in my [Dreadboots of the Legion]. While the stats will end up the same if I do that and gem pure spinels in everything else once I get my desired gear set, I rather have the benefit of STR from [Inscribed Pyrestone] now. Seasprays just look so noob
The problem is that the meta we need requires 2 blues, and I find this to be a problem. [Dreadboots of the Legion] is the one off-set item I'm still waiting on, haven't seen one in at least 3 months. Honestly, I might dual [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in them, since you really can't depend on a gem slot from the cloaks in the long run.

But yea, if that meta didn't have that annoying requirement my gear would be all pyrestones and spinels.

Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
My ZA group always has me with a Feral Druid and a Shaman, so I really con't complain
In our T5 gear we've managed to get the third timer, where I snagged what Maxdps.com is calling the best Retribution ring in the game, the [Signet of Primal Wrath].
I would be VERY careful with maxdps.com. I find many comparisons are flat out wrong when I input my fully buffed raid stats as directed. This is especially true with SoB calculations. I would strongly suggest switching to the spreadsheet.
#1769SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holtzhammer
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
My ZA group always has me with a Feral Druid and a Shaman, so I really con't complain
In our T5 gear we've managed to get the third timer, where I snagged what Maxdps.com is calling the best Retribution ring in the game, the [Signet of Primal Wrath].

I'm a bit critical of armor penetration since it only effects 70% of my damage output.

Anyone have some thoughts on this item?

That's the best physical DPS ring in the game, not just "ret". Any armor penetration will increase your physical damage (AA, CS) so any passive increase to that you can snag off of odd items like rings, or necks would be a welcome increase in your overall dps. The same could be said for haste, even after its been nerfed into the ground.

My question reguards armor penetration and executioner, combined with seal of blood: If you proc Exe. and AA, will that new increased autoattack damage also increase Seal of blood's proc?
#1770SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Holtzhammer View Post
My question reguards armor penetration and executioner, combined with seal of blood: If you proc Exe. and AA, will that new increased autoattack damage also increase Seal of blood's proc?

NO... this is a common misconception. SOB damage is calculated BEFORE armor is taken into account on the main hit. SOB is a magic attack, so that wouldn't make much sense. Also, horde paladins tend to do slightly more magic damage in the breakdowns than alliance paladins, since SOB procs every hit and SOC doesn't. Also JoB hits harder than JoC. As such, the value of armor penetration for horde paladins is less than that of an alliance paladin.

And please stay away from maxdps.com. It gives decent general ideas what to look for, but for real comparison you should really stick to the spreadsheet. Keep in mind, you input your stats, not your gear into maxdps. When it looks for upgrades, it doesn't "remove" your item first and look for the best upgrade, but rather adds it on top, which is simply not realistic.

That being said, it is still a very good ring, but I'm fairly sure [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] off bloodboil tops it out, at least in my gearset it does.
#1771SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holtzhammer
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
The problem is that the meta we need requires 2 blues, and I find this to be a problem. [Dreadboots of the Legion] is the one off-set item I'm still waiting on, haven't seen one in at least 3 months. Honestly, I might dual [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in them, since you really can't depend on a gem slot from the cloaks in the long run.

But yea, if that meta didn't have that annoying requirement my gear would be all pyrestones and spinels.


Zurm, do you currently have the [Shifting Tanzanite] in any of your gear? As far as I know its the only blue gem that would help towards the meta, but give ap/crit.
#1772SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Originally Posted by Holtzhammer View Post
My question reguards armor penetration and executioner, combined with seal of blood: If you proc Exe. and AA, will that new increased autoattack damage also increase Seal of blood's proc?
No, SoB damage is(thankfully) calculated off pre-mitigated weapon damage. So, ArP(passive/executioner proc/sunders) don't affect it at all.
#1773SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Holtzhammer View Post
Zurm, do you currently have the [Shifting Tanzanite] in any of your gear? As far as I know its the only blue gem that would help towards the meta, but give ap/crit.
I do not. I actually did not think of that gem, and I'll try to get one for my cloak. However, in the long run I need two green gems for those boots, yellow to get the good bonus and blue to appease the meta requirement.
#1774SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holtzhammer
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
NO... this is a common misconception. SOB damage is calculated BEFORE armor is taken into account on the main hit. SOB is a magic attack, so that wouldn't make much sense. Also, horde paladins tend to do slightly more magic damage in the breakdowns than alliance paladins, since SOB procs every hit and SOC doesn't. Also JoB hits harder than JoC. As such, the value of armor penetration for horde paladins is less than that of an alliance paladin.

And please stay away from maxdps.com. It gives decent general ideas what to look for, but for real comparison you should really stick to the spreadsheet. Keep in mind, you input your stats, not your gear into maxdps. When it looks for upgrades, it doesn't "remove" your item first and look for the best upgrade, but rather adds it on top, which is simply not realistic.

I didnt ask if it was effected by it, I was asking if the initial autoattack ( that is now doing more damage, thanks to exe.) would cause the SoB that would follow ( since afaik it isnt an instant, it takes a little while to hit) to do more damage.

So the situation would go something like this:
Autoattack/CS, proc Exe.
Autoattack(effected by exe. now) hits, does damage to the target.
SoB is calulated and hits next, doing damage.

What I wanted to know is will SoB do more damage after the proc because the Autoattack that its damage is derived from is doing more damage, or will its damage stay "the same"?

MaxDPS isnt all that bad, but if you're a retadin at the level that most of us on these boards are at, its probably not as needed, although it is nice to see something else backing up our claims.


Edit: thanks Anarkii, for the answer. Your haste in answering is > my question of a question.
#1775SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Bellator's spreadsheet has [Signet of Primal Wrath] equal to [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] and 3 dps higher than [Band of Devastation] with my gear setup (no armor pen at all). That being said, I won't be replacing my band if primal wrath drops since it'd probably give more benefit to a class that does 100% physical damage. Gurtogg needs to stop being stingy.

Edit: Yeah, I'll probably end up socketing dual [Jagged Seaspray Emerald]. We have a glut of [Crimson Spinel] amazingly enough and a dearth of [Pyrestone] and [Shadowsong Amethyst].
#1776SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Dual greens strikes me as a sub-par method of getting your meta gem bonus. I'm going to assume the following gear:
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
[Midnight Chestguard]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
[Dreadboots of the Legion]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Furious Shackles]
[Cloak of Darkness]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Libram of Divine Judgement]
[Torch of the Damned]
There's really three ways you can go about gemming your gear:
  1. All [Crimson Spinel], with two [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in your boots.
  2. All [Crimson Spinel], with two [Inscribed Pyrestone] in your boots, and [Shifting Tanzanite] / [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] in your belt and cloak.
  3. All correctly matching gems (including a single [Shifting Tanzanite] somewhere in the suit).
Option 1 nets you 1578 total DPS, option 2 nets you 1583 DPS, and option 3 nets you 1580 DPS. So you'd be better off just matching all of your sockets correctly (and saving your guild a ton of Crimson Spinels) than you would be by using two green gems.

Even if you can't get a Shifting Tanzanite, option 2 is still better, and option 3 is within less than 1 DPS of the dual green solution. And both of them use less Spinels, which is quite the boon if your guild is anything like most of us.
#1777SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Yeah, I realize that if I gem without using the Seasprays and use a single [Shifting Tanzanite], I'll get a slight dps upgrade. However, we're currently overflowing with [Seaspray Emerald] (who isn't?) and actually have more [Crimson Spinel] than [Shadowsong Amethyst] and [Pyrestone] combined. Additionally, with your gear setup you gain a little bit of extra crit from gemming blues in the belt and cloak. With my desired gear list, I have no worthy socket bonuses besides the boots.
#1778SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Theras... is that gear set and those given dps values with FULL raid buffs? I'm also going to assume its for alliance. You should probably mention that specifically, because more and more the gap in gear between horde and alliance changes many things. For example, that set has no haste on it... which for a horde ret pally is (depending on gear) the 1st or 2nd ranked stat.

On my spreadsheet I hit basically 1700 dps with my gear. Also, I don't know how it is for alliance, but I have mana issues as it is WITH JOW... I'm waiting for T6 chest so I can finally get 2pc and the mana return it gives.

I keep seeing that gearset thrown around, and I'd just like to point out that in a realistic raid situation, especially on bosses that aren't on farm, there is a good deal of value to wearing plate and getting things such as 2pc T6 over say two non-set pieces. If you're oom, you won't do much dps at all. And I'm fairly sure being able to rank up to Consecration rank 3 or 4 (instead of R1) and using Exorcism freely is a bigger dps boost than wearing leather.
#1779SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cathmor
For the alliance paladins that loathe leather, an all-plate set! I think I'm done fine-tuning this fine specimen.
70 Human Paladin

Only thing I keep going back and forth on is whether the [Legguards of Endless Rage] or the [Leggings of Divine Retribution] and a point shifted back into Precision would be better.

If we're talking *plate armor only*, what would you change about the set in that Warcrafter profile to increase DPS in a theoretical sense?
#1780SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Hot off the presses.

A juicy tidbit when it comes to gemming from the 2.4 notes.

Gems obtained through Heroic difficulty instances are no longer Unique-equipped.
Time for some [Shifting Tanzanite] farming, eh?

#1781SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
what's the difference between a gluth and a dirth?

i was thinking of replacing my [Pendant of the Perilous] with
[Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph] and gemming with a [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] to activate my meta until i can get the T6 chest. my only other options seem to be either purchase a red belt of battle (gg to not having a crafter in guild) or pray belt of 100 deaths drops. socketing dreadboots with green gems would probably make me cry.
#1782SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
what's the difference between a gluth and a dirth?
Dirth is a band, while gluth isn't a word.

A "glut" is an abundant oversupply, while a "dearth" is a shortage.
#1783SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Hot off the presses.

A juicy tidbit when it comes to gemming from the 2.4 notes.



Time for some [Shifting Tanzanite] farming, eh?

Think they'll reitemize that gem so that it's not a red/blue gem with all red stats?
#1784SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
As long as no one tells them I think we'll be safe.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did change the gem, but then of course we've gone for almost a year with it stuck that way. *shrug*
#1785SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
Dirth is a band, while gluth isn't a word.
Actually it's a zombie dog.

And I guess I'll be farming the hell out of heroic Steam Vaults every day now. Of course I've probably run it a dozen times now without a single Tanzanite, but hopefully my luck will change. Also with this change it makes Seaspray Emeralds even more of a waste.
#1786SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
You guys got the blues mess on your boards too?
"In 2.4, retpal items stats will be adjusted. Retpals should see a DPS increase". Sounds like good news :o
(about time they did something, still).
#1787SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Items intended for Retribution Paladins have had their stats adjusted. Retribution Paladins should see an increase in dps as a result.
Source

EDIT: beat me.
#1788SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Source

EDIT: beat me.
Here's hoping they reitemize the tier sets so that I actually want to use 4 pieces, despite the horrible 4-set bonus.
#1789SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
So I suppose come 2.4, items such as [Girdle of the Lightbearer] won't suck as much. What I'm really curious about is if the change will extend to tier equipment as well. I wouldn't mind seeing a fix that would make it more desirable besides going for the 2pc bonus.
#1790SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Oxudes
I just hope they ditch the spelldmg from tiers and make a talent for it (well, don't know about alliance, but as I looked through t6 as a belf, I didn't see anything I'd want - not that I have acess to anything apart from gloves atm anyway, but still).

Hoping for at least SOME good changes though.
#1791SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pyralissa
I hope the change applies to more than just the tiered gear and the season one and season two scale gear. Seeing items like the Hammer of the Naaru and other non-set pieces get re-itemized would be a big plus as well. I'm somewhat disapointed that alliance paladins aren't receiving some kind form of Seal of Blood clone but it's good news they didn't declare Retribution "fixed" and are still tinkering with it.
#1792SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
Now I'm kind of sad that I sharded [Girdle of the Lightbearer]...

And this gem change is fantastic!
#1793SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
It would be nice if the leveling gear and items like Hammer of the Naaru got changed, but I seriously doubt it.

With all the the various development efforts, having Tier 4-6 and Arena 1-3 (maybe the blue 70 set too) reitemized is enough on their plate.
#1794SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teer
If they are remaking the retribution tier gears to what the season 3 gear is now, I hope they will make some str > spelldamage talent since robbing all that gear of spell damage really should gimp our brothers on the other side of the fence.

But personally I did a happy joy dance and had to discipline myself to not giggle aloud when I heard it
#1795SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ayreon
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
It would be nice if the leveling gear and items like Hammer of the Naaru got changed, but I seriously doubt it.
Some of it already got changed in previous patches, for example [Foreman's Head Protector], [Earthslag Shoulders], [Entrenching Boots]
#1796SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gormal
Originally Posted by Ayreon View Post
Some of it already got changed in previous patches, for example [Foreman's Head Protector], [Earthslag Shoulders], [Entrenching Boots]
Only one of those items could be considered paladin loot, and it still has spell damage so thats not what he meant at all.

Edit: My mistake, I misinterpreted his post.

Last edited by Gormal : 02/03/08 at 3:17 AM.
#1797SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Only one of those items could be considered paladin loot, and it still has spell damage so thats not what he meant at all.
Actually all three of those were changed in 2.3 from paladin items (spell damage) to general plate DPS items (as you see now). The tooltip hasn't been updated for a few things though so don't trust those.
#1798SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Holynae
I have something to say about the gems discussion. I know the seaspray crap in the [Dreadboots of the Legion] looks kind of noob. But you have to activate your metagem and in order to do that you have to have at least 2 yellow, 2 blue and 2 red. The red gems is usually not the problem, the problem are the 2 yellow and the 2 blue gems. You also have to consider, although the sunwell loot isn't revealed yet, that you can't plan how your equipment looks at the endgame. I made myself some thoughts about how my endgame loot could look like, not considering any T6 Loot, cause I'm Blood Elf, a really sexy Blood Elf by the way, I mean who doesn't find a blood elf wielding a 2h sword from archimonde and wearing plate sexy... but that's another story. So I made my plans without using any T6, cause of 2.3 and the Sanctified Judgment change I decided not to use the 2 part t6 bonus. I looked at all possibilities, but there was no way, that goes arround 2 seaspray gems in the Dreadboots of the Legion. These Boots are the only item, that is mandatory taking the socket bonus. Also there are no items which have blue sockets, where you could fit your 2 blue gem requirement for the metagem, except the cloak, but as an foreposter says, it isn't smart relying your metagem onto a cloak.

Ok the heroic steam vault gem ist good, as he is superior to the str/sta epic gem of hyjal, but if i put my metagem activation into my boots I don't have to worry about another girdle, or chest, or cloak or whatever. Ok you can say, but what if there are better boots than Dreadboots of the Legion and you have to take them, because they are so zomfg wtf awesome. Then I say, if they are so zomfg wtf awesome, than they have also 2 sockets in them in which i can also put 2 green gems in for my metagem.

I came to the conclusion, that the boots are the best slot to depend your metagem on, because there have been so many boots with 2 sockets in them: the Karazhan, Ogrila, Zul'Aman and BT boots. You see although in every tier instance there are available boots in which you can fit your metagem requirements. I think this series will continue.

At the end you only have to care about that, because oversocketing rare gems is easy, buy them on the AH and put them in the proper slot, but if you go to your raidleader and say, can I have new epic gems, because i have to resocket a few items, I think he will rip your head off...

I'll stick with the green gems in boots solution, it is the best solution in my opinion, a better solution requires endless supply of epic gems, which I will never have...

As a note I was only looking at plate armor, because as there may be other armor pieces e.g. leather or mail with better socket options I think it is better to leave that stuff to Rogues, Hunters or Shamen. I think in HS and BT there are plenty of plate drops not to take the other dudes their stuff away that they are so badly needing. Of couse I talk with my raidmembers and if e.g. a rouge says, that he is only using [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] as long as he has no T6 helm I would take it. But if this is not the case, I can't plan to take the best gear and let a [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] become disenchantet, ninjaing the Sargeras thing weakening the raid.

Last edited by Holynae : 02/02/08 at 9:35 PM.
#1799SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Weakening the raid? You have already cleared all of the content currently available to you. So honestly you would not be weakening anything, but just improving your own gear set. I don't know if you personally raid 24/7 as Ret, however if I was a PURE Ret Paladin I would be going for my optimal setup including leather, mail, plate. I personally raid as all 3 specs from time to time pending what the guild needs so I generally won't take something contested like that however if it was my only spec, I would.

Honestly if I had the boots and the opportunity to regem my gear with pure str gems and use the boots solely to get my meta bonus I would do it. As you said none of the bonuses are good and the only bonuses I would ever really go for are the +str ones.

Seasprays are so common and used for generally nothing that if you ever replaced your boots and had to regem again it wouldn't be so major.
#1800SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I think plate vs non-plate gear is largely dependent on individual guilds and it's not worth discussing here. It's more a question of the guild's loot policy and best practices than anything else.
#1801SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nelalas
Pardon my question if it is repeated; my search for an answer did not return anything that I was exactly looking for.

When under the effects of Improved Sanctity Aura, the "damage" on my character's paper doll displays a *102% modifier (as expected). My question is if anyone has tested whether the aura modifies the actual weapon damage or is just some static 1.02 multiplier at the end of special attack damage calculations? In other words, would an attack made with a weapon of average damage X be treated as X*1.02 or simply as X with a sanctity aura modifer at the end? There has been some talk about Improved Sanctity Aura with regard to rogue spreadsheets and I am wondering if there is more to this aura than a blanket 2% character damage increase.
#1802SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
Pardon my question if it is repeated; my search for an answer did not return anything that I was exactly looking for.

When under the effects of Improved Sanctity Aura, the "damage" on my character's paper doll displays a *102% modifier (as expected). My question is if anyone has tested whether the aura modifies the actual weapon damage or is just some static 1.02 multiplier at the end of special attack damage calculations? In other words, would an attack made with a weapon of average damage X be treated as X*1.02 or simply as X with a sanctity aura modifer at the end? There has been some talk about Improved Sanctity Aura with regard to rogue spreadsheets and I am wondering if there is more to this aura than a blanket 2% character damage increase.
Also would like to know this, would make for one more Bullet point for my viability in DPS groups.
#1803SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
Pardon my question if it is repeated; my search for an answer did not return anything that I was exactly looking for.

When under the effects of Improved Sanctity Aura, the "damage" on my character's paper doll displays a *102% modifier (as expected). My question is if anyone has tested whether the aura modifies the actual weapon damage or is just some static 1.02 multiplier at the end of special attack damage calculations? In other words, would an attack made with a weapon of average damage X be treated as X*1.02 or simply as X with a sanctity aura modifer at the end? There has been some talk about Improved Sanctity Aura with regard to rogue spreadsheets and I am wondering if there is more to this aura than a blanket 2% character damage increase.
As far as I'm aware, it works the same as all other similar damage modifiers, such as zone-specific buffs (e.g. Hellfire Superiority) or even Vengeance. Vengeance is a 15% damage increase, and just like Imp. Sanc. Aura, it shows up on the character sheet as *115%, but it's obvious the damage bonus applies to all attacks, and not directly tied to weapon damage.
#1804SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
I've been asked to respec to grab Improved Might and I'm having trouble deciding where to drop talent points from.
Is Benediction really worthwhile for a Blood Elf Paladin in T6 content?
I could drop POJ, but I really like how it helps me in movement-based fights since I lack a Sprint or Intercept.

I'll consider talking one of the Holy Paladins to respec to get Imp Might.
#1805SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
I've been asked to respec to grab Improved Might and I'm having trouble deciding where to drop talent points from.
Is Benediction really worthwhile for a Blood Elf Paladin in T6 content?
I could drop POJ, but I really like how it helps me in movement-based fights since I lack a Sprint or Intercept.

I'll consider talking one of the Holy Paladins to respec to get Imp Might.
Personally, I have enough hit now to drop precision, which means I respec'd 5/0/56, so I personally have both...

When I did have precision I dropped benediction to grab imp might, with the new sanctified judgment it really isn't as big of a deal as you would imagine especially if you bring combat mana pots to raids and pop those if your too cheap to pop majors. =]

In my opinion though, if you have consistent raiding holy pallies you really would benefit from making one of them respec into it, our guild has 1 pally that hates pvp, so I am attempting to get him to spec into it, you might benefit from doing the same.
#1806SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
What is the exact hit rating you need to be capped without precision?
#1807SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
you need ~142 to Be capped with a 2h weapon
#1808SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nelalas
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
As far as I'm aware, it works the same as all other similar damage modifiers, such as zone-specific buffs (e.g. Hellfire Superiority) or even Vengeance. Vengeance is a 15% damage increase, and just like Imp. Sanc. Aura, it shows up on the character sheet as *115%, but it's obvious the damage bonus applies to all attacks, and not directly tied to weapon damage.
Yes of course it will be applied to all attacks. My question is specifically regarding when special melee attacks are made while a character is under the effect of Improved Sanctity Aura. Does the aura try to increase our weapon's damage "prior" to the special attack, or is the special made normally and then modified by the aura? If the mechanic of this aura for melee specials fits in the realm of the former option, this aura will have a vastly higher value than is currently though (to rogues, at least). Yes I know what the tooltip says; but the game tooltips have many times been known to not actually reflect the mechanics of a particular spell, ability, or item. I am curious if any paladins out there have checked for this kind of behavior.
#1809SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
I think plate vs non-plate gear is largely dependent on individual guilds and it's not worth discussing here. It's more a question of the guild's loot policy and best practices than anything else.
Its still relevant to a Raiding Retadin and the decisions they make. The loot a Retadin takes directly affects the raid and the raiders involved.

While it may be ok for a plate wearing dps class to take leather/mail pieces to increase their personal dps, what about the other dps classes who simply don't have the luxury to downgrade armour?

Im still up in the air personally about whether or not I'd take leather/mail from rogues/shaman but if I can get a piece of plate armour thats a little less dps than the other piece, I will -most likely- save myself for that first and let the other dps classes have a chance. Maybe 1 or 2 drops down the road I will place my interest in said items.

That said, a lot of raids have very fair dkp systems where even if someone like a retadin takes a item over another character, that character will most likely get something next time. But then, do you really want to be responsible for seeding bad feelings amongst the raid in regards to loot... raids seriously dont need loot drama at all.
#1810SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
Yes of course it will be applied to all attacks. My question is specifically regarding when special melee attacks are made while a character is under the effect of Improved Sanctity Aura. Does the aura try to increase our weapon's damage "prior" to the special attack, or is the special made normally and then modified by the aura? If the mechanic of this aura for melee specials fits in the realm of the former option, this aura will have a vastly higher value than is currently though (to rogues, at least). Yes I know what the tooltip says; but the game tooltips have many times been known to not actually reflect the mechanics of a particular spell, ability, or item. I am curious if any paladins out there have checked for this kind of behavior.


I'm not sure I understand the problem here.

The damage modifier from Imp Sanctity Aura (as well as almost everything else) is multiplicative.

As such, does it really matter where it comes into effect? As long as all other modifiers are also multiplicative, then it's the same thing.

And, if there's any additive modifiers (like "weapondamage + x"), then coming at the end is the best case scenario, no?


Can you give an example how it would be different, just write out a simple calculation.
#1811SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Boggus
Spelldamage is all nice and dandy I guess, but using Seal of Blood I get pretty much no benefit out of it besides concecration and exorcism. A str->spelldmg talent would be quite lazy and not and all too usefull talent for me and many others. Seeing how warrior dps plate gear is the current choice for retribution paladins this leaves one big negative impact on our way to play; our mana bar and regeneration rate.

Wouldn't a str->mana/5 talent be a much better idea seeing how this would help out itemization for our part?
#1812SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ariasis
Originally Posted by Boggus View Post
Spelldamage is all nice and dandy I guess, but using Seal of Blood I get pretty much no benefit out of it besides concecration and exorcism. A str->spelldmg talent would be quite lazy and not and all too usefull talent for me and many others. Seeing how warrior dps plate gear is the current choice for retribution paladins this leaves one big negative impact on our way to play; our mana bar and regeneration rate.

Wouldn't a str->mana/5 talent be a much better idea seeing how this would help out itemization for our part?
I agree here, allthough they should have a look at Seal of Command first, making it scale with AP.

I highly suspect that Blizzard will make this happen, they took baby steps by first changing CS and our S3 gear and it's already anounced that "gear intended for retritbution paladins" will be changed. I am prety sure this will mean they remove the SD from our sets and replace it with strength and crit.
#1813SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Veneda
Originally Posted by Boggus View Post
Spelldamage is all nice and dandy I guess, but using Seal of Blood I get pretty much no benefit out of it besides concecration and exorcism. A str->spelldmg talent would be quite lazy and not and all too usefull talent for me and many others. Seeing how warrior dps plate gear is the current choice for retribution paladins this leaves one big negative impact on our way to play; our mana bar and regeneration rate.

Wouldn't a str->mana/5 talent be a much better idea seeing how this would help out itemization for our part?
To mirror warrior combat system, we need mana regeneration gains from hitting target, with crits giving us more mana then normal hits. Currently we gain mana ("blue rage") from being hit (assuming healing), but not so much from hitting mobs (JoW is not real equivalent of warrior rage mechanics).

So right now we have proper way to gain rage/mana while tanking (from being hit) but not so much from hitting things(which is fury/arms way of gaining rage). All talents we have are more about the more economical use of mana/rage, not about its generation. We can slow its spending, but we can't generate it (through talents).

Some sort of deep ret talent that gives us X% of damage delt to target back as mana would be the easiest way to deal with the problem, sort of the moonkin ability, but actually useful. But I think it was mentioned ealier in this thread already...
#1814SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Boggus View Post
Spelldamage is all nice and dandy I guess, but using Seal of Blood I get pretty much no benefit out of it besides concecration and exorcism. A str->spelldmg talent would be quite lazy and not and all too usefull talent for me and many others. Seeing how warrior dps plate gear is the current choice for retribution paladins this leaves one big negative impact on our way to play; our mana bar and regeneration rate.

Wouldn't a str->mana/5 talent be a much better idea seeing how this would help out itemization for our part?
Unless they are nice and give SoB to alliance we're still a little dependant on spell damage. As a whole a STR > SD will result in a DPS increase for everyone unless you're not using Judgement at all, in which case your DPS is most likely already nice and gimp.

I'm all for a nice regen talent, but given the fact that you can keep a mana surplus relatively easily if you don't go crazy with Consecration its much lower on my wish-list than some other changes that we need.
#1815SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Boggus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Unless they are nice and give SoB to alliance we're still a little dependant on spell damage. As a whole a STR > SD will result in a DPS increase for everyone unless you're not using Judgement at all, in which case your DPS is most likely already nice and gimp.

I'm all for a nice regen talent, but given the fact that you can keep a mana surplus relatively easily if you don't go crazy with Consecration its much lower on my wish-list than some other changes that we need.
Indeed. Having Seal of Blood limited to horde only is quite silly in terms of design, seeing how its dps output is greater than Seal of Command. They should remove the faction based spells, the whole priest racial spell discussion that went on since release would indicate that this kind of design is a very bad idea.

As for the mana issues, well granted in some situations I simply cannot go out of mana. While raiding I am sometimes placed in a caster group with a spriest and have no mana issues whatsoever. When in a melee group chances are I get a shaman with manaspring totem which helps alot. The mana issues I do want to adress is in those occasions I got neither a spriest or a shaman available which results in chainpotting which is quite expensive. Usually this is not a problem for 25 man raiding. But it is for 10 man raiding or 5 man instance groups where these resources are sometime not available. Or for soloing, or pvp.
#1816SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pazgaz
Having to chain pot is no reason to get more mana regen. Everyone is doing that (except enh shamans... maybe), why should we be able to dps without potting?
#1817SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Personally, I have enough hit now to drop precision, which means I respec'd 5/0/56, so I personally have both...
Why would you do that? :O

Moving away from the 5/8/48 spec forces you to pull another 3% hit from your gear. Thats 3% hit's worth of item points, you could have poured into Strength or more Crit.

In my opinion, Pursuit of Justice, Vindication and Eye for an Eye are PVP talents - you can't justify losing 3% hit to obtain any of them.
#1818SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Boggus
Originally Posted by Pazgaz View Post
Having to chain pot is no reason to get more mana regen. Everyone is doing that (except enh shamans... maybe), why should we be able to dps without potting?
Well mostly due to other dps classes with mana bars have some kind of mana regen ability. Mages have evocation and those mana gems, warlocks can life tap, shadow priests have vampiric touch, moonkins can specc mana regen from int and spirit, hunters have aspect of the Viper(?). Most of these classes have gear that helps out their passive mana regen but most of the retribution designed gear does not even have any mana/5, just intellect and spelldamage. And well neither does warrior gear.
#1819SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Why would you do that? :O

Moving away from the 5/8/48 spec forces you to pull another 3% hit from your gear. Thats 3% hit's worth of item points, you could have poured into Strength or more Crit.
Unless he's using hit gems, that may not be an option. The hit cap for 2h specs is so low that it's entirly possible to end up over the hit cap without ever intentionally picking up any hit. You don't spec out of precision because you can hit the cap without it, you spec out of precision because you're forced to hit the cap without it.
#1820SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holynae
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Why would you do that? :O

Moving away from the 5/8/48 spec forces you to pull another 3% hit from your gear. Thats 3% hit's worth of item points, you could have poured into Strength or more Crit.

In my opinion, Pursuit of Justice, Vindication and Eye for an Eye are PVP talents - you can't justify losing 3% hit to obtain any of them.
It may be that 3% hit on gear costs you Strength or Crit. But if you have 142 hitrating or less on your gear, why not to respecc. At the moment I have 123 hitrating, but what should I do? The items were the best, where I could get my hands on. I think is it is extremly difficult to get exact that 95 hitrating, normally you are just above. And if you are a little close to 142 hitrating, why not aim for 142 hitrating and free the 8 points in the prot tree?

Ok there is not much gain, you could skill full benediction and some points in parry.

Pursuit of Justice is no PvP talent because the 15% movement speed gives you an advantage in encounters where you have to move a lot (e.g. Archimonde, Azgalor, Supremus, Shahraz, Council). I spent also a point in Vindication, because of the rumor that it procs JoW.
#1821SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
Yes of course it will be applied to all attacks. My question is specifically regarding when special melee attacks are made while a character is under the effect of Improved Sanctity Aura. Does the aura try to increase our weapon's damage "prior" to the special attack, or is the special made normally and then modified by the aura? If the mechanic of this aura for melee specials fits in the realm of the former option, this aura will have a vastly higher value than is currently though (to rogues, at least). Yes I know what the tooltip says; but the game tooltips have many times been known to not actually reflect the mechanics of a particular spell, ability, or item. I am curious if any paladins out there have checked for this kind of behavior.
It should be applied at the end. It's a % damage modifier that affects all damage. (Like Vengeance, the BG beserker buff, deathwish, etc etc) It definitely affects the base damage of paladin judgements (JoC, JoR, JoV), so I don't see why it wouldn't affect the "base damage" of rogue/warrior strikes (SS, MS, etc)


If you really want to test its effect, you could grab a rogue/warrior and ask them to use their utility abilities that deal no weapon damage (kick, shield bash, pummel, etc) - and then compare damage with and without iSanct. Aura.

Rogue max rank gouge deals 105 damage, so you should be able to see whether it is affected by iSanct. Aura or not. (critters don't have AC AFAIK, so they'd make a good test target for this test)
#1822SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Galick
Long time reader first time poster.

As far as the hit cap goes, we have a boomkin in the raid so I was able to hit cap without getting precision or 142 hit rating. Of course on the very rare occasion he is not in the raid, my dps will suffer somewhat because I have to compensate for the lack of hit by taking the +hit food and still not being capped. Regardless, it is a great synergy I have the luxury of.

In regards to the mana issue, I've found that since I started putting one point into vindication, mana problems are a thing of the past. Here's a wws report of a najentus kill and I am aware that my dps was laughable but in my defense I was in a group with a resto shaman and some holy priests(don't ask me why). Also, I died halfway through the fight but that's not the numbers I want you to focus on. Look at the mana I got back from jow. I 93 ticks (6.8k mana) with only 83 hits on the boss. Galick - WWS
#1823SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Yeah, quite honestly I find the mana battle to be the fun of Ret DPS, between SA, Sanctified Judgements, Benediction, Mana Spring, BoW and JoW being up from other Pallies I have no real mana problems, with almost no passive Mp5. If all this fails, heaven forbid I can just chug a mana pot every once in a while.
#1824SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
The only problem with using mana potions is that it consumes your haste potion timer.

Mages
Mana gems have three charges, restore more than a typical potion
Evocation

Priests
Vampiric Touch
Shadowfiend
Great passive mana regen

Druids
Moonkins get a Int -> MP5 talent
Innervate
Passive mana regen

Hunters
Aspect of the Viper

Shamans
Mana Spring
Elemental gets Int -> MP5 talent
Enhancement gets Shamanistic Rage

Warlocks
Life Tap
Dark Pact if Affliction

Paladins
??

We really shouldn't be so reliant on having another paladin and a shaman in our group for our mana regeneration. Having a talent like "Your critical strikes restore mana equal to your level" would be excactly what we need, especially in PVP.
#1825SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Merple
All of our mana-return abilities inhibit our DPS, unlike most other DPS. Outside of 25 mans, you're rarely running with enough paladins to have someone else apply wisdom meaning you're potentially losing your own crusader buff, you're sacrificing your potion timer, and you may be losing your Guardian Elixir or Food to Mp/5 equivalents.

Paladins require more self-sufficiency. How bout an AP->mp/5 conversion. Nobody's got that yet.
#1826SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I posted about this about 30 pages ago when we were debating about solo grinding as a ret pally.

In a raid the main three sources of regen (BoW, JoW, and Mana Spring) are all technically outside buffs. While you can get by well enough using just these three in a raid, while soloing and PvPing and to an extent 10 mans you typically won't have any of them. This, combined with low mana pools, can cause problems.

So in reality our regen "problems" don't really apply to a raid situation unless you are blowing max rank everything at every cooldown (which no class with the exception of enhancement shamans can do). I think it would be nice to see some sort of passive regen (which would also help prot paladins with their offtanking woes), but as a raiding ret paladin it shouldn't be one of your top concerns. With the impending reitemization of Ret specific gear we could even see Intellect gear becoming viable, making the mana issues even less of a problem.

Is it an issue? Yes. Is it a particularly important issue? Not really.
#1827SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3gnarbiscuits
extra aggroe from JOL?

i appologize if it has been asked before, but when judgement of light procs who gets threat from this heal? if it is the attacker then maybe it obviously isnt going to be as useful as wisdom. im trying to get my guild to allow a single ret pally for the buffs and such but i gotta cover all my angles, thanks in advance
#1828SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Heals from JoL are much like Lifebloom and PoM, the aggro from the heal goes to the person receiving the heal. Basically the heal counts as that person's heal and they get all the threat that it would cause. Incidentally this is also why JoL can't proc SA.
#1829SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3gnarbiscuits
so jol could potentialy be harmful to a raid because a tank will gain less threat from jol than a rogue perhaps. or will a tank gain more threat because of nearly unlimited rage and instant attacks? sunder, shield slam, revenge, autoattack etc?
#1830SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Galick
Originally Posted by gnarbiscuits View Post
so jol could potentialy be harmful to a raid because a tank will gain less threat from jol than a rogue perhaps. or will a tank gain more threat because of nearly unlimited rage and instant attacks? sunder, shield slam, revenge, autoattack etc?
From what I generally see, rogues see about 30% more JoL procs than a tank. With the rogue having salvation, this should pan out to be about equal threat gain for each. Of course on a fight where a rogue wouldn't take much damage or any at all(if such a fight exists anymore lol), then it would just be free threat gains for the tank.
#1831SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Hunters
Aspect of the Viper

Paladins
??
As for sololing/grinding, I think between JoW/SoC and BoW, I can go about 15-20 mobs before drinking/eating. I know your mileage may vary, but I don't chug haste pots farming =P Its just a question of performance vs efficiency.

I dont think any of our hunters raid with aspect of the viper on during raids, and from what I hear its not uncommon for one of our hunters to go through 30 pots a night.

In my experience when doing t5 content I would have to chug mana potions a LOT as most of the fights the damage is aimed at the tanks. When you start to get into BT/MH there is GOBs of damage going out to the raid, so you gain a lot back from SA.

There are a lot of ways to shave mana usage. Downranking spells, MP5 elixirs/flasks, dark runes, potions etc. Just keep in mind, you can go full burn and do more damage in a short amount of time, but a paladin out of mana is pretty much hosed; its hard to get back once you don't have it. I think paladins are a little on the short end of the stick in terms of mana regen, but if everything was easy it wouldn't be fun. Besides, retribution is known for its burst nature.
#1832SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
All of our mana-return abilities inhibit our DPS, unlike most other DPS. Outside of 25 mans, you're rarely running with enough paladins to have someone else apply wisdom meaning you're potentially losing your own crusader buff, you're sacrificing your potion timer, and you may be losing your Guardian Elixir or Food to Mp/5 equivalents.

Paladins require more self-sufficiency. How bout an AP->mp/5 conversion. Nobody's got that yet.
I like that idea a lot!

Your comment brought up a question, though. Do most folks go BoW, BoM, BoS for their blessings? 3 paladins seems to be the standard amount that you end up with in raids (and certainly thats the amount we run). I've been taking kings over wisdom, and chain-chugging mana pots, personally, which seems to work fine, but means that I cannot drink any DPS-increasing potions.
#1833SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
If I have 3 blessings, I get kings, might, and salv. I can't afford to get wisdom with 3 pallies, and even with 4 I usually accept Light just to make the job of the healing pallies a little easier. Mana is tight on trash, and moderate on bosses... I'm hoping that when I get 2pc t6 (waiting on chest, our illidan seems to only want to drop protector) I'll have a much easier time with mana, but I have no idea how the bonus works. ATM I'm hoping its something like an extra JoW.
#1834SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teer
Seems new badge loot is coming in 2.4, taken from MMO-Champion

This could possibly be Retribution gear, that blues have been "hinting" at for a long time.

Ret badge rewards are there, technically, but it isn't as apparent as there's still some class changes coming that will be "finishing" the intended vision of hybrid itemization.

You don't want the DPS plate now, but we want you to want it. Similar to the Heart of the Wild change, and the first 'lean' into having kitties desire rogue itemization. It's an overall change in itemization focus as we move forward, and into Wrath. We're in a state of transition now, and it's going to be a bit uncomfortable in some cases.
From that quote by Drysc I was thinking that they would make us want the ZA warrior badge loot, but maybe they realized the folly of that and just make us custom gear. Hopefully something along the lines of Season 3.
#1835SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Boggus
To me it sounds like they are gonna skip the melee stats with spelldmg itemization and let us share the same gear as dps warriors. I would assume they are gonna redesign the set items the same way as s3, that is melee stats and maybe some int on them. They will probably make some talent reworking to adjust us to better fit into the warrior plate gear.

But maybe I am just reading too much into it.
#1836SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nelalas
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'm not sure I understand the problem here.

The damage modifier from Imp Sanctity Aura (as well as almost everything else) is multiplicative.

As such, does it really matter where it comes into effect? As long as all other modifiers are also multiplicative, then it's the same thing.

And, if there's any additive modifiers (like "weapondamage + x"), then coming at the end is the best case scenario, no?


Can you give an example how it would be different, just write out a simple calculation.
Thanks for the replies Avitus and Fiola. Here is what I was referring to in equation form for a Sinister Strike:

Sinister_Strike = (AP / 14) * Normalized_Weapon_Speed + Weapon_Damage + 98

With my talents and MH weapon:

Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + 268 + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1

Now my question regarding Improved Sanctity Aura is whether the bonus is applied at the end of the calculation (the intuitive, tooltip-read method) or whether the aura modifies the damage of the weapon before entering the SS equation (the alternative method, suggested by the paper doll "damage" number). So, for me:

Null_Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + 268 + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1 * 1.02
or
Alternative_Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + (268*1.02) + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1

If I use 2000 as my attack power for the sake of a sample calculation, the difference in mean non-critting sinister strikes between these two calculation methods would be:

Null_Sinister_Strike = 843
Alternative_Sinister_Strike = 833

So the question is which method of calculation is used in-game. I suppose one way to test would be for me to remove all proc-able effects and armor penetration and obtain a sample of sinister strikes with Improved Sanctity Aura and see if the sample mean differs from the theorectical mean based on my resulting AP and weapon. I suspect that the variance of any in-game sample would be way too high to detect which method is used, not to mention that one would have to look exclusively at non-crits or all-crits (thus requiring additional combat log labor). Essentially, I wanted to know if any test like this had been done before. Most likely the aura damage is tacked onto the end of the equation (Null model) but I was thinking there is a possibility of the alternative model. Under the null model, Improved Sanctity Aura will not really change anything in our rogue spreadsheets except to increase damage calculations by 2% across the board. Under the alternative model, there might be different behavior, which supports the argument to add this aura to our spreadsheets.
#1837SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
Null_Sinister_Strike = 843
Alternative_Sinister_Strike = 833

So the question is which method of calculation is used in-game.
The null SS calc is correct, it is just a simple 2% at the end of your normal damage.
#1838SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Diraphise
Looking forward to the SoC haste research; I declined to roll on a lot of haste gear in ZA yesterday.

Can anyone with the Prism of Inner Calm confirm whether SoC and JoC are classified as physical or spells? I'll have access to the trinket very soon, but if both abilities count as melee, I don't see -150 threat being too useful given our slow attack speed.
#1839SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mithar
I have read through all 73 pages, but this is my first time posting. Looking at the first page I noticed that, for a BE, 5% haste is +4% damage. I was wondering if the Iron Counterweight, which adds 1.27% constant haste, would be a better increase in dps than savagrey and potentially some of the other more expensive enchants (at least for BE).

Forgive me if this question has been addressed in a different post. Thanks for your time and the information.
#1840SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Mithar View Post
I have read through all 73 pages, but this is my first time posting. Looking at the first page I noticed that, for a BE, 5% haste is +4% damage. I was wondering if the Iron Counterweight, which adds 1.27% constant haste, would be a better increase in dps than savagrey and potentially some of the other more expensive enchants (at least for BE).

Forgive me if this question has been addressed in a different post. Thanks for your time and the information.
No, it would be significantly worse than any other level 70 two handed weapon enchant. Punching in 20 haste rating as your weapon enchant into the spreadsheet can tell you that easily enough.
#1841SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Diraphise View Post
Can anyone with the Prism of Inner Calm confirm whether SoC and JoC are classified as physical or spells?
SoC is a melee attack, and since JoC uses spell hit and +damage it is a spell.
#1842SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holtzhammer
I was wondering with all this talk of Mp5 problems, how do paladins with 5/5 Benediction and 3/3 Sanc. Judgements feel their mana conservation/longevity is doing compared to thoes of us using 2/5 Benediction and 3/3 Sanc. Judgement?

I know the math was done that having Benediction actually hurts Sanc. Judgement, but we're still putting points in it because it's still one of two of our passive Mp5 abilities. I'd like to find enough mana in a typical fight so I can stop chain potting Super Mana's and weave in a Haste or Heroic pot instead. Anything that will increase my DPS.
#1843SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
Thanks for the replies Avitus and Fiola. Here is what I was referring to in equation form for a Sinister Strike:

...

Null_Sinister_Strike = [(AP / 14) * 2.4 + 268 + 98] * 1.06 * 1.1 * 1.02

...

Under the null model, Improved Sanctity Aura will not really change anything in our rogue spreadsheets except to increase damage calculations by 2% across the board.
This is pretty much it, a flat 1.02 multiplier at the end of any damage, whether special or white (which is fortunately the best case scenario).

I believe they show it on your character spreadsheet simply to reflect the change to your white damage (similar to berserker buff in PVP), so that shouldn't confuse you.
#1844SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Diraphise View Post
Looking forward to the SoC haste research; I declined to roll on a lot of haste gear in ZA yesterday.
Well a few pages back I wrote my results from chaining heroism from 7 shammies with no increase to SoC procs and my conclusion was that it is based on the hasted weapon speed. This means that haste is a pretty crappy stat for alliance paladins, since it only increases white damage.

Admittedly, it was a very rough test, but I was hoping the massive haste increase of heroism (+30%) would make up for the short duration/small number of swings, so take it with a pinch of salt I guess.



Can anyone with the Prism of Inner Calm confirm whether SoC and JoC are classified as physical or spells? I'll have access to the trinket very soon, but if both abilities count as melee, I don't see -150 threat being too useful given our slow attack speed.
JoC is a spell, so you get -1000 threat when it crits.

May I ask why you're interested in this trinket? Pre-threat reduction it was a godsend, I used to use it on almost all fights.

Post threat reduction, it's virtually impossible to pull aggro off a good tank if you have salvation. I've banked my Prism of Inner Calm and consider sharding it, since it serves no purpose anymore.

If you have threat problems with salvation and 5/5 fanaticism, then the problem most definitely does not lie with you.
#1845SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Holtzhammer View Post
I was wondering with all this talk of Mp5 problems, how do paladins with 5/5 Benediction and 3/3 Sanc. Judgements feel their mana conservation/longevity is doing compared to thoes of us using 2/5 Benediction and 3/3 Sanc. Judgement?

I know the math was done that having Benediction actually hurts Sanc. Judgement, but we're still putting points in it because it's still one of two of our passive Mp5 abilities. I'd like to find enough mana in a typical fight so I can stop chain potting Super Mana's and weave in a Haste or Heroic pot instead. Anything that will increase my DPS.
I have both and as long as I have Blessing of Wisdom on and Judgement of Wisdom is on the target, I don’t have to use mana pots too often. I had considered dropping Benediction and picking up Imp BoM instead for our melee classes.
#1846SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
JoC is a spell, so you get -1000 threat when it crits.

May I ask why you're interested in this trinket? Pre-threat reduction it was a godsend, I used to use it on almost all fights.

Post threat reduction, it's virtually impossible to pull aggro off a good tank if you have salvation. I've banked my Prism of Inner Calm and consider sharding it, since it serves no purpose anymore.

If you have threat problems with salvation and 5/5 fanaticism, then the problem most definitely does not lie with you.
I like it for fights like Hydross and Voidreaver, where the tanks might not be able to hit the peak when it comes to threat. Occasionally I'll use it on Vashj, depending on who's going to be tanking nagas.

I'm just starting MH/BT, so I don't know how many threat-sensitive fights there are, but I'd be surprised if there aren't at least a couple.
#1847SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well a few pages back I wrote my results from chaining heroism from 7 shammies with no increase to SoC procs and my conclusion was that it is based on the hasted weapon speed. This means that haste is a pretty crappy stat for alliance paladins, since it only increases white damage.

Admittedly, it was a very rough test, but I was hoping the massive haste increase of heroism (+30%) would make up for the short duration/small number of swings, so take it with a pinch of salt I guess.
Don't worry, I'll be running a definitive test once the 2.4.0 PTR is out. Since new badge rewards have been announced, I don't feel like blowing 150 of them on a test, so I'll be doing it in a consequence-free environment.

Edit: Also, for what it's worth, an unhasted SoC proc rate I've pinned down at precisely 7 PPM (~21 hours of log parsing at 2.0 weapon speed). So that's good to know at least, even though I guess we knew that already. But now we know it.
#1848SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
I like it for fights like Hydross and Voidreaver, where the tanks might not be able to hit the peak when it comes to threat. Occasionally I'll use it on Vashj, depending on who's going to be tanking nagas.

I'm just starting MH/BT, so I don't know how many threat-sensitive fights there are, but I'd be surprised if there aren't at least a couple.
The only aggro sensitive fight in MH/BT is Bloodboil.

Keep in mind you're sacrificing 1 trinket slot so you can attack 1-2 seconds earlier on Hydross switches and "maybe" not grab aggro if you crit, instead of just holding back for a moment.

I can possibly see it used for Voidreaver I guess.

Originally Posted by Theras View Post
I'll be running a definitive test once the 2.4.0 PTR is out. Since new badge rewards have been announced, I don't feel like blowing 150 of them on a test, so I'll be doing it in a consequence-free environment.
Sounds great, looking forward to confirmed results
#1849SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Quick question does anyone have a good list of boss armor pre debuff and with debuffs like Faerie Fire/ Curse of Recklessness/ Sunder Armor applied?
#1850SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Also what is the most currect version of Bellator's DPS Spreadsheet?
#1851SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cathmor
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
Quick question does anyone have a good list of boss armor pre debuff and with debuffs like Faerie Fire/ Curse of Recklessness/ Sunder Armor applied?
[RAID] Boss armor values
#1852SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Can anyone confirm why the hit cap is supposedly 9%.

I was under the impression it was 5%, +1% for each level the boss was higher than you.....Level 73 raid boss = 8% surely?

I tried this out this evening, dropped some of my hit gear, lowering me to 8% hit - I know its only one raid and is by far solid evidence - but according to my Recount mod, I didn't miss a single Crusader Strike, Melee swing, Judgement of Blood or Seal of Blood.

Can someone a little better with the numbers please explain? :O
#1853SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holynae
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Can anyone confirm why the hit cap is supposedly 9%.

I was under the impression it was 5%, +1% for each level the boss was higher than you.....Level 73 raid boss = 8% surely?

I tried this out this evening, dropped some of my hit gear, lowering me to 8% hit - I know its only one raid and is by far solid evidence - but according to my Recount mod, I didn't miss a single Crusader Strike, Melee swing, Judgement of Blood or Seal of Blood.

Can someone a little better with the numbers please explain? :O
Of course it 9% to the hit cap.
#1854SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Holynae View Post
Of course it 9% to the hit cap.
I'm still a little confused.

I'd like to know the theory behind why this is true.

As far as I was aware, the hit cap would be 8% for a mob that is 3 levels higher than you. I gather I've read something wrong at some point.
#1855SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Generally the Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3 sticky at the top of the page can answer these kinds of questions.

The two posts regarding hit rating are here:
http://elitistjerks.com/456667-post383.html
http://elitistjerks.com/472184-post530.html
#1856SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dram
From my understanding the base miss is 5% for a level 70. At 71% its 5.5%, 72 6% and 73 9%, this is because of the difference in weapon skill that a level 70 can have and the defence value a level 73 mob can have.
#1857SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
I'm still a little confused.

I'd like to know the theory behind why this is true.

As far as I was aware, the hit cap would be 8% for a mob that is 3 levels higher than you. I gather I've read something wrong at some point.
Hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Formula is: 5% + (Boss Defense Skill - Player Weapon Skill)*.1%

As you can see it's not a linear 1% more hit per level it's higher and scales up.
#1858SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Oooh thankyou very much guys, to all 3 of you. Cleared my question up perfectly.

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Generally the Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3 sticky at the top of the page can answer these kinds of questions.
I'm guessing I should leave this thread occassionally and maybe read some of the others on these forums. :P

Thanks again. =)
#1859SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
In regards to Bellator's DPS Spreadsheet, does anyone know how to properly add your own items? I am looking to add Drake Fang Talisman to mine, on the sole purpose as I have switched out my hit gems in my T6 shoulders and went to DFT to get me hit capped til either I get the council helm or a madness. However when ever I go to user added item and try to add my stats simply by filling out the item values of 20 Hit and 56 AP I get errors within Excel. Just trying to compare the DPS gain from switching to 2 10 str gems from hit gems and compare it to using different trinkets besides my DFT.
#1860SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3colesinz
In regards to the gear requirements and listings from other people, I have mixed and matched my set by using Season 3 chest and gloves, 3 piece vindicators set (for intellect purposes) shoulders from Mt. Hyjal, helm from TK and my rings and other assortments are mixed and matched from Badge gear and quest items from hyjal and BT.

Only issue i have at the momet is im running around with gorehowl..... waiting to down archimonde so i can get that cataclysm's edge. and i need a new trinket. i was able to get the darkmoon card that gives you the +crit. but its only like 1%. so thats kinda crappy atm.

But the reason im posting is because Someone told me that Trollbane from Zul'Aman would be better for me than Cataclysm's Edge. I dont know crap about setting up spreadsheets or doing the math and all that jazz, but what do you guys think? Trollbane has NO +Str on it, but it does have sockets and AP on it. i still feel that it may not be enough. Anyone care to help me out on this?
#1861SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarkan-ZdC
Originally Posted by colesinz View Post
In regards to the gear requirements and listings from other people, I have mixed and matched my set by using Season 3 chest and gloves, 3 piece vindicators set (for intellect purposes) shoulders from Mt. Hyjal, helm from TK and my rings and other assortments are mixed and matched from Badge gear and quest items from hyjal and BT.

Only issue i have at the momet is im running around with gorehowl..... waiting to down archimonde so i can get that cataclysm's edge. and i need a new trinket. i was able to get the darkmoon card that gives you the +crit. but its only like 1%. so thats kinda crappy atm.

But the reason im posting is because Someone told me that Trollbane from Zul'Aman would be better for me than Cataclysm's Edge. I dont know crap about setting up spreadsheets or doing the math and all that jazz, but what do you guys think? Trollbane has NO +Str on it, but it does have sockets and AP on it. i still feel that it may not be enough. Anyone care to help me out on this?
Well, best Weapon List is at the beginning (first page and the following 1-2 pages)

Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse (iLevel 138) has with a speed of 3,7 380 - 570 Damage (Endbos ZA)
Cataclysm's Edge (iLevel 151) has with a speed of 3,5 386 - 580 Damage Damage

Now Trollbane (iLevel 132) has a speed of 3.6with 358 - 537 Damage, even with Sockets it is clearly not even as good as Jin'rohk.

The best Weapon?

Torch of the Damned. Speed 3.80 396 - 595 Damage and Crit, Str. Sta and haste. If you're blood elf Cataclysm's Edge should be superior. But for this just check the first post.

But Trollbane is far far from "the best"
#1862SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
Actually trollbane doesn't even fit into the top 10 weapon list. So I'm not sure how you got that idea.

Originally Posted by Subject View Post
In regards to Bellator's DPS Spreadsheet, does anyone know how to properly add your own items? I am looking to add Drake Fang Talisman to mine, on the sole purpose as I have switched out my hit gems in my T6 shoulders and went to DFT to get me hit capped til either I get the council helm or a madness. However when ever I go to user added item and try to add my stats simply by filling out the item values of 20 Hit and 56 AP I get errors within Excel. Just trying to compare the DPS gain from switching to 2 10 str gems from hit gems and compare it to using different trinkets besides my DFT.
Unhide the sheet named 'DPS. Go down to the trinkets section. Below the row 'User Added', fill in these values under these headers :
Name : Drake Fang Talisman
Hit : 20
AP : 56
Loc : Trinket
MyLoc : MyTrinket

Loc and MyLoc are lookup information used in the main sheet and itemcalc.

Last edited by Anarkii : 02/06/08 at 10:54 AM.
#1863SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
To re-iterate, [Cataclysm's Edge] is best for a Blood Elf, and [Torch of the Damned] is best for alliance, but they are very close in general. Trollbane is...not ideal for someone raiding T6 content ;P
#1864SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Another trinket question...

I'm getting close to exalted with the ashtongue, and I wonder if the trinket [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] would edge out [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Bellator's sheet says yes. Do you guys agree? Seems the more I read about the trinket, the less I like about it.
#1865SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rosvall
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
To re-iterate, [Cataclysm's Edge] is best for a Blood Elf, and [Torch of the Damned] is best for alliance, but they are very close in general. Trollbane is...not ideal for someone raiding T6 content ;P
Would not the sword hold higher for humans (5 expertise skill, not rating) for swords.
#1866SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurm
Originally Posted by Rosvall View Post
Would not the sword hold higher for humans (5 expertise skill, not rating) for swords.
What worries me is that as a human rogue you are not aware that the human racial applies to both swords and maces. So no, even for humans racials will not change this.

Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Another trinket question...

I'm getting close to exalted with the ashtongue, and I wonder if the trinket [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] would edge out [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Bellator's sheet says yes. Do you guys agree? Seems the more I read about the trinket, the less I like about it.
While I'm usually hesitant to trust anything other than WWS, Bellator's spreadsheet has yet to fail me. This does surprise me though... I thought post-nerf the ashtongue trinket was pretty much useless. Keep in mind, in the spreadsheet proc's are modeled under ideal and sometimes unrealistic values...however both are proc based so its kinda hard to tell. As long as you have enough crit to keep up 3x vengeance, trust the spreadsheet IMO.

HOWEVER! I took a look at your gear... you should easily be able to get the Heroic Badge trinket (aka [Bloodlust Brooch]). That is a significant upgrade over both.

Last edited by Zurm : 02/06/08 at 12:05 PM.
#1867SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
HOWEVER! I took a look at your gear... you should easily be able to get the Heroic Badge trinket (aka [Bloodlust Brooch]). That is a significant upgrade over both.
Yea, I do have that trinket, but the spreadsheet says the hourglass edges THAT out. So if its right, the Ashtongue one edges them both out. =/

I just dont know its worth putting another debuff on the boss from the Zeal that pushes others more valuable debuffs off, or gets pushed off itself.
#1868SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Hourglass is better than Ashtongue with my gear setup according to the spreadsheet. The BT trinket doesn't scale with gear, so it's effective contribution is pretty static. Add to that the fact that it consumes a debuff slot and you may not be judging on cooldown, and it's usefulness decreases. I don't like it at all =/
#1869SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dram
Originally Posted by Rosvall View Post
Would not the sword hold higher for humans (5 expertise skill, not rating) for swords.
Humans have 5 expertise for maces too.
#1870SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bartonarms
Hit Cap Question

Hey all,

I've been raiding with 144 hit rating (9.13%), which I thought would eliminate misses, but Wowwebstats shows me missing around 5% in KZ. I'm sure there's something obvious that I'm either not thinking of or not understanding. Can someone set me straight? Thanks much.

Kaetlyn - WWS
#1871SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Hit only affects your chance to miss. Bosses can still dodge even if you are hit capped and you'll be parried if they turn around to cast like Shade of Aran. Expertise is the only stat that can reduce a boss' chance to dodge your attack.
#1872SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Bartonarms View Post
Hey all,

I've been raiding with 144 hit rating (9.13%), which I thought would eliminate misses, but Wowwebstats shows me missing around 5% in KZ. I'm sure there's something obvious that I'm either not thinking of or not understanding. Can someone set me straight? Thanks much.

Kaetlyn - WWS
WWS counts misses as anything blocked/missed/dodged/parried/resisted. If you go into the detail on the WWS, you can see that you never missed, but you had plenty of dodges and parries.

You can eliminate parries easily by DPSing behind your target, dodges can be mitigted by expertise.

Your tanks will thank you if you DPS from the back, and your own DPS will go up with no parries to worry about.
#1873SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bartonarms
Hit cap question

Ah, knew it was something simple. The column headings threw me off. Thanks guys.

Last edited by Bartonarms : 02/07/08 at 12:49 AM.
#1874SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holynae
I wondered if Expertise rating is something to aim for. But I don't think it is worth much for palas, you lose most of the time ap and crit. At the moment I think there is no item with expertise on it worth taking.
#1875SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Hey Bellator,

I know you haven't posted in a while, but I'm sure you still browse this thread when you can work permitting. Firstly thanks for the work you put into your spreadsheet. It very comprehensive and approaching perfection. A couple things that could be added IMHO. [Elixir of Major Mageblood], I use this with Major Agility on mana intesive fights. Also [Scroll of Agility V]. Other than those 2 things, flawless spreadsheet and I look forward to the next even better version.

Thanks again,
Elloris
#1876SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Holynae View Post
I wondered if Expertise rating is something to aim for. But I don't think it is worth much for palas, you lose most of the time ap and crit. At the moment I think there is no item with expertise on it worth taking.
I would have said [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] were certainly a viable choice, if not the best item for their slot in-game.
#1877SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Originally Posted by Holynae View Post
I wondered if Expertise rating is something to aim for. But I don't think it is worth much for palas, you lose most of the time ap and crit. At the moment I think there is no item with expertise on it worth taking.
I see [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] as best in slot. Prolly due to their Expertise.
#1878SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sal the Pal
A quick question

I love the spread sheet! /bow

My main concern is the To Hit rating.
Since To Hit is such a valuable comodity up to the cap and then it's completely worthless it tends to really upset my comparisons. Assassin ring, badges pants, e t c are all items that are hugely undervalued compared to how easy they are to get. But then when you add up your To Hit and realize that you are well over the cap even without Precision something has to go. Comparing one item at a time will always favour the item with the most To Hit (generally speaking), but in the end this tactic will burn you.

My suggestion for the spread sheet is to remove the to hit cap for the Total DPS field, and only give a warning about it. Let's say change the hit cap numbers to red or have two Total DPS fields, one with the hit cap taken into account and one without the cap for comparison purposes. Normally when you compare two pieces of gear, you already are at or close to the cap, and if the new gear has a slightly higher To Hit it will be presented as inferior when you compare the Total DPS.

You can work around this by adjusting the rest of your gear so you go below the hit cap again, but it takes alot of extra time, especially if you want to go thru more or less all of the gear choices...

And then a final question: When I remove all my to hit gear I still get 1% to hit from gear. This totally put off my calculations and I cant find the source for this extra magic to hit percent. Is it a bug or do I get that bonus from a Dranei in my group, a default choice of To Hit food or is there a glitch with my input data?

And one more question about the spread sheet. I think the proc trinkets are calculated rather favourable. When the internal CD is up and the proc can proc, is it realistic to assume it happens so quickly for all trinkets? The total up time of a proc trinket is everything, is it not?

-------------

And now for something completely different:
DST and attack cycle. When it procs it tends to mess up the timing somewhat. Not more than the boss moving and other problems like that, but still, it makes a difference. And might 2 points in Improved Judgment be worth it, with DST? Or should I only put the 1 standard point into that talent still?
#1879SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
And now for something completely different:
DST and attack cycle. When it procs it tends to mess up the timing somewhat. Not more than the boss moving and other problems like that, but still, it makes a difference. And might 2 points in Improved Judgment be worth it, with DST? Or should I only put the 1 standard point into that talent still?
I gather DST = Dragonspine Trophy.

Your attack cycle shouldn't be altered by a Haste increase, be that a trinket or a [Haste Potion]. The Haste doesn't alter your GCD, just your weapon swing timer. Your white swings will be quicker but that wont alter your standard Crusader Strike every 6 seconds, and your Judgement every 9.
#1880SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sal the Pal
Thanks for the quick answer. Just a little worried that a the swingtimer will swing when I'm supposed to be judging, but then again, that will happen with haste potions and 3.8 vs 3.6 speed weapons too. You just have to keep an eye on that swing timer hehe.

Have had some problems with the buttons on the spread sheet. Got 2007 version and most of the time the buttons do not work. I have set the security to the lowest settings I could find. But it must be some setting I havent found yet. I also have a problem with the gemming for strength versus the optimal gemming. And enchants on my weapon or any enchants for that matter. I know the data is there, since I can show that page, but where does it come into the calculations and how do i set my enchantment/gemming preferences?

And thanks again for a very usefull tool!

Still haven't found out where that extra +1% tohit comes from.
#1881SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
Thanks for the quick answer. Just a little worried that a the swingtimer will swing when I'm supposed to be judging, but then again, that will happen with haste potions and 3.8 vs 3.6 speed weapons too. You just have to keep an eye on that swing timer hehe.
Crusader Strike and Judgement are both instants and don't interrupt your swing timer. Only abilities like a Warrior's "Slam" reset a swing timer, or indeed our own "Hammer of Wrath" reset the swing timer. The only way you can interrupt your weapon swing is by turning auto-attack off, casting a spell (Hammer of Wrath = bad idea), going out of range....or dying.

Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
Have had some problems with the buttons on the spread sheet. Got 2007 version and most of the time the buttons do not work. I have set the security to the lowest settings I could find. But it must be some setting I havent found yet. I also have a problem with the gemming for strength versus the optimal gemming. And enchants on my weapon or any enchants for that matter. I know the data is there, since I can show that page, but where does it come into the calculations and how do i set my enchantment/gemming preferences?
Tools ---> Options ---> Security ---> Macro Security ---> Low (Not Recomended). Worked for me. =)

When you've done that, you should be able to click "Show Detail" and set your gem's and enchants for each particular item.

Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
Still haven't found out where that extra +1% tohit comes from.
Have you got the talent Precision on 1/3 by any chance?
#1882SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3conner686
I spent the last couple nights playing around with a level 20 retribution paladin that I gave an Iron Counterweight and Minor Haste to Gloves to in order to experiment with Seal of Command's proc rate. These are my two biggest tests.

http://wowwebstats.com/s5qjjgqropf6q?a=0
http://wowwebstats.com/lxpvwf2rfmkry?a=0

The first involved a 3.8s weapon with just the glove enchant, bringing the attack speed down to 3.64s. The second had both the enchant and the counterweight, bringing the weapon speed down to 3.36s.

Test 1:
3.8s weapon making 5237 attacks should proc about 2322 times, while a 3.64s weapon should proc 2234 times. I observed 2233 procs.

Test 2:
3.8s weapon making 7709 attacks should proc about 3418 times, while a 3.36s weapon should proc 3022 times. I observed 2978 procs.

So the results don't look promising, unless I'm doing something wrong in my analysis.
#1883SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Thanks for the tests. How did you generate that many hits on a 20 though? Could you describe your test method more?
#1884SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
conner686
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Thanks for the tests. How did you generate that many hits on a 20 though? Could you describe your test method more?
I hid in Elwynn Forest dueling for 8 hours. Raam had his back turned, and did nothing but heal himself every couple minutes, while Rhoped refreshed SoC every twenty seconds or so. There really wasn't anything more to my testing than that. That first test cost me about 10g in repairs >< Second test was done with nothing but indestructable healing gear, hence the larger melee hits.

I was honestly expecting a much higher miss rate than I saw, but apparently it isn't so bad, at least when you have the 70 on the run

*edit: I don't imagine it matters, but if you want I can list the gear I was using both times. Both tests were done with my current spec [Raam], but none of my current gear. Rhope's weapon was a Battle Axe from the weapon shop in SW.

Last edited by conner686 : 02/07/08 at 5:00 AM. Reason: Fix linkies
#1885SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Do most ret paladins macro their judgement/reseal? I am curious if other people do this to save the GCD. As well as why people judge every 9 seconds instead of 8, is it just so Consecrate doesn't overlap with Judgement?
#1886SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Actually trollbane doesn't even fit into the top 10 weapon list. So I'm not sure how you got that idea.



Unhide the sheet named 'DPS. Go down to the trinkets section. Below the row 'User Added', fill in these values under these headers :
Name : Drake Fang Talisman
Hit : 20
AP : 56
Loc : Trinket
MyLoc : MyTrinket

Loc and MyLoc are lookup information used in the main sheet and itemcalc.
Actually noticied on the bottom there was an Add Item feature. Thanks tho, found out DFT is 4 Less DPS than my Bloodlust Brooch when I need the hit. So I will continue to use it :p
#1887SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Subject View Post
Do most ret paladins macro their judgement/reseal? I am curious if other people do this to save the GCD. As well as why people judge every 9 seconds instead of 8, is it just so Consecrate doesn't overlap with Judgement?
Yes, and we do it because then your instantly re-seal when you judge, adn there's no downtime chance for a swing to happen when there's no seal up. you judge 9 seconds instead of 8, because that keeps it from landing on your crusader strike. Most of us have our judgement talented to an 8 second cooldown, and simply are careful to prioritize their judgement lower than CS, if CS will come up before the GCD from resealing is done, they wait.
#1888SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sal the Pal
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Crusader Strike and Judgement are both instants and don't interrupt your swing timer. Only abilities like a Warrior's "Slam" reset a swing timer, or indeed our own "Hammer of Wrath" reset the swing timer. The only way you can interrupt your weapon swing is by turning auto-attack off, casting a spell (Hammer of Wrath = bad idea), going out of range....or dying.



Tools ---> Options ---> Security ---> Macro Security ---> Low (Not Recomended). Worked for me. =)

When you've done that, you should be able to click "Show Detail" and set your gem's and enchants for each particular item.



Have you got the talent Precision on 1/3 by any chance?
What about rejudging SoC. You want to do that imediately after a judgement, since you don't want to risk an auto attack without SoC up. Doesn't that mean that you have to adjust your judgement+resealing both to GCD from CS and concecrate and to the swingtimer?

I have put macro security under security center to low, but I still get a run time error (in swedish) 1004 can't find Method "range" in object "_Global". (My translation of the error message.) Could it be related to me running a swedish version 2007?

Anyone out there that has the spreadsheet working fully with a swedish version of Excel 2007?

And no, I do not have the precision talent set to 1/3.
I downloaded the last version of the spread sheet and removed all items with a value in the To Hit column, and removed Precision. Still I got the 1.1% To Hit in the summary?

Kind of confused at the moment. Could it be related to me not being able to activate all functions on the spreadsheet due to versioning problems?
#1889SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Subject View Post
Do most ret paladins macro their judgement/reseal? I am curious if other people do this to save the GCD. As well as why people judge every 9 seconds instead of 8, is it just so Consecrate doesn't overlap with Judgement?
I don't know if most Ret Paladins are using a macro, but this is one I have playing around with.

/castsequence Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike

B-Elf Ver

/castsequence Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike
#1890SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
What about rejudging SoC. You want to do that imediately after a judgement, since you don't want to risk an auto attack without SoC up. Doesn't that mean that you have to adjust your judgement+resealing both to GCD from CS and concecrate and to the swingtimer?
Look at the first post in this topic. It has a little diagram with the DPS Cycle shown in a way much better than I can explain.

In essence though, yes. You don't Judge until your GCD is ready. This ensures 100% Seal uptime.
#1891SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarkan-ZdC
Originally Posted by conner686 View Post
I spent the last couple nights playing around with a level 20 retribution paladin that I gave an Iron Counterweight and Minor Haste to Gloves to in order to experiment with Seal of Command's proc rate. These are my two biggest tests.

WWS Loading...

The second had both the enchant and the counterweight, bringing the weapon speed down to 3.36s.

Test 2:
3.8s weapon making 7709 attacks should proc about 3418 times, while a 3.36s weapon should proc 3022 times. I observed 2978 procs.

So the results don't look promising, unless I'm doing something wrong in my analysis.
Well, according to you're log 2 you made 9139 Attacks (1430 missed) and of those 7709 Attacks that landet you had 2516 procs and 462 resisted procs. Which is youre 2978 procs.

Now, if I'm not calculating wrong (very possible *g*) then 9139 attacks with a 3,36 weapon take about 8 1/2 half hour. But according to wws you needed 9h02min for them o_O

Anyhow, 30707 Sec is 511,78 Min. So if you have 7 ppm you should see 3582 procs. But you missed about 15% of the auto attacks. If I'm correct that means you will loose about 15% of possible SoC procs
So 3098 procs should be the estimated number of procs according to me. You where below by a good 120 procs with your 2978 procs

The other way arround. If SoC would proc with 7ppm on normal, not modified weapon speed. Then you should see 4051 procs with 100% hit. Due to your 15,6% Miss it should be 3504 procs and you are really far from that *g*
#1892SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thorgred
As of 2.4, Retribution will be recieving a 'dps upgrade' from gear upgrades.
One can assume that a majority of the following items will be affected:
Armor - Items - World of Warcraft

whilst this shouldnt make any difference to current calculations, we should expect to see far higher average DPS from lower leveled paladins as gear is upgraded to viable itemisation.
#1893SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Thorgred View Post
As of 2.4, Retribution will be recieving a 'dps upgrade' from gear upgrades.
One can assume that a majority of the following items will be affected:
Armor - Items - World of Warcraft

whilst this shouldnt make any difference to current calculations, we should expect to see far higher average DPS from lower leveled paladins as gear is upgraded to viable itemisation.
We have no idea what they are changing at this stage to suggest otherwise is wishful thinking.
#1894SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Brooch of Deftness
Neck
+48 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 22 (1.4% @ L70).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 21 (5.33 @ L70).

Costs 35 Badges
New in patch 2.3

According to Blizzard, Expertise rating will reduce the chance that both yellow and white attacks will be dodged or parried.

I ran a search for this item and I saw a small conversation about it but not enough to go on. Does anyone use this item? I noticed the spreadsheet gives Weapon Expertise a very high dps per point return on Expertise and there is a very limited number of items which give Expertise rating. I am wondering if it is worth the 35 badges.
#1895SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
I see [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] as best in slot. Prolly due to their Expertise.
True, the Leatherpads are the best single piece shoulders in the game because of expertise and sockets, but I think the DPS boost is greater from equipping the lightbringer shoulders and chestpiece as the mana back allows you to judge higher ranks of SoC and do more damage than having the Shoulderpads of the Stranger.

2c
#1896SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
True, the Leatherpads are the best single piece shoulders in the game because of expertise and sockets, but I think the DPS boost is greater from equipping the lightbringer shoulders and chestpiece as the mana back allows you to judge higher ranks of SoC and do more damage than having the Shoulderpads of the Stranger.

2c
That entirely depends on the encounter and your raid setup.

If you have 4 Paladins, you will probably have Blessing of Wisdom - coupled with a Mana Spring totem and Judgemet of Wisdom, mana wouldn't be an issue at all.
#1897SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
That entirely depends on the encounter and your raid setup.

If you have 4 Paladins, you will probably have Blessing of Wisdom - coupled with a Mana Spring totem and Judgemet of Wisdom, mana wouldn't be an issue at all.
Aye, but you dont have to worry about SoC ranks =P

The blessings usually go: Salv. Kings, Light, Might/Wis. Im usually on Might/Wis so I will usually 10min might myself for boss fights. Our shammy also uses healing spring. Should I yell at him to drop mana since healing spring affects five people rather than two?
#1898SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3conner686
Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC View Post
Well, according to you're log 2 you made 9139 Attacks (1430 missed) and of those 7709 Attacks that landet you had 2516 procs and 462 resisted procs. Which is youre 2978 procs.

Now, if I'm not calculating wrong (very possible *g*) then 9139 attacks with a 3,36 weapon take about 8 1/2 half hour. But according to wws you needed 9h02min for them o_O
As I recall, that test was the one where Raam died while I was asleep. I woke up shortly after, realized I wasn't hearing swings anymore, and stopped logging, but didn't bother trimming off the extra half hour or so.
Anyhow, 30707 Sec is 511,78 Min. So if you have 7 ppm you should see 3582 procs. But you missed about 15% of the auto attacks. If I'm correct that means you will loose about 15% of possible SoC procs
So 3098 procs should be the estimated number of procs according to me. You where below by a good 120 procs with your 2978 procs
I'm largely unconvinced looking at how long the test took to take and calculating backwards from that is appropriate. Its highly unlikely Blizzard has some complex code that tries to keep the PPM right at 7; that is simply too complicated and unreliable from a development standpoint. Its more likely its done the way most people suggest doing it: take the speed, and calculate a chance per hit from it.

However, in this case either way is identical since there's no chance for parries and the combat was uninterupted; the problem is that I observed a 15.6% miss rate, not 15%. Tack on the extra 0.6%, and the number comes back down to 3023.
#1899SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
That entirely depends on the encounter and your raid setup.

If you have 4 Paladins, you will probably have Blessing of Wisdom - coupled with a Mana Spring totem and Judgemet of Wisdom, mana wouldn't be an issue at all.
Doing a minimal rotation mana would not be a problem. Remember though that if you can get enough extra regen you can start dropping Consecrations, which is a large DPS increase.
#1900SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
That entirely depends on the encounter and your raid setup.

If you have 4 Paladins, you will probably have Blessing of Wisdom - coupled with a Mana Spring totem and Judgemet of Wisdom, mana wouldn't be an issue at all.
If you have 4 paladins, you should still not be receiving BoW. Priority is Salv > Might > Kings > light > wisdom, and having 3 paladins healing means BoL is important, as around half your healers are affected by it.
#1901SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sal the Pal
Anyone else that can confirm the 1.1% ghost To Hit bonus if you remove all items with to hit bonuses and Precision talent from the spread sheet? Is it just me or is it there for a good reason?
#1902SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
If you have 4 paladins, you should still not be receiving BoW. Priority is Salv > Might > Kings > light > wisdom, and having 3 paladins healing means BoL is important, as around half your healers are affected by it.
We usually only take 2 Holy Paladins, and 1 Protection.

In this situation BoW > BoL. As flyingtoastr just said, more mana = more DPS, a BoW will pay for Rank 1 Consecration throughout an entire encounter. With these 4 Paladins, I would probably be the only one in the raid without BoL - hardly an issue in my opinion.

Salvation
Kings
Might
Wisdom
Light
Sanctuary

Seems the most sensible Blessing priority; if of course you only have 2 Holy, like you say with 3 Holy Paladins +, you could put more value on BoL.
#1903SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
Anyone else that can confirm the 1.1% ghost To Hit bonus if you remove all items with to hit bonuses and Precision talent from the spread sheet? Is it just me or is it there for a good reason?
It's fine for me. I don't see any 'ghost' hit if I remove all items with Hit and Precision.
#1904SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
Anyone else that can confirm the 1.1% ghost To Hit bonus if you remove all items with to hit bonuses and Precision talent from the spread sheet? Is it just me or is it there for a good reason?
Check your helm glyph?
#1905SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Strifen
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
If you have 4 paladins, you should still not be receiving BoW. Priority is Salv > Might > Kings > light > wisdom, and having 3 paladins healing means BoL is important, as around half your healers are affected by it.
Well that's not necessarily true all the time. We generally have 4 paladins in the raid and I get BoW over light. Reason is our paladins are almost strictly put on tank healing duty and they're supposed to heal the tanks only and not worry about the raid. Resto shaman and Coh priests cover raid healing and me having BoL has no effect on that.
#1906SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
What would be minimum stats/gear level for a Ret paladin starting Karazhan?

Yes, I recognize most retadins start out healing and move to Ret once you get into 25s, but I'm pretty sure I can get a spot anyway.

Any feedback would be great.
#1907SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Well that's not necessarily true all the time. We generally have 4 paladins in the raid and I get BoW over light. Reason is our paladins are almost strictly put on tank healing duty and they're supposed to heal the tanks only and not worry about the raid. Resto shaman and Coh priests cover raid healing and me having BoL has no effect on that.
Same, except when we have 3, only 1 is holy (we carry myself and a protection paladin), when we have 4, that brings us to a whopping 2 holy. Light's awesome, but I can't imagine wanting it over wisdom, as Ret. even if we carried 3 holy palis, I'd probably ask for wisdom over light.
#1908SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by noth View Post
Same, except when we have 3, only 1 is holy (we carry myself and a protection paladin), when we have 4, that brings us to a whopping 2 holy. Light's awesome, but I can't imagine wanting it over wisdom, as Ret. even if we carried 3 holy palis, I'd probably ask for wisdom over light.
I cannot imagine wanting light over anything as ret. We often have only 2 paladins in raid including myself, and my priority is very strongly salv > might > kings > wisdom. Just get a 10 minute buff if necessary or something, but there's no reason I can tihnk of for a ret paladin to get light as anything but a 5th buff. Hell, I might take Sanctuary for the damage reduction over light half the time.
#1909SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
I hope you realize its never what buff you want its what buff they want to give you.
#1910SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
True, the Leatherpads are the best single piece shoulders in the game because of expertise and sockets, but I think the DPS boost is greater from equipping the lightbringer shoulders and chestpiece as the mana back allows you to judge higher ranks of SoC and do more damage than having the Shoulderpads of the Stranger.

2c
I totally agree, still woulda bin nice to know these were best in game for me when we were sharding them in SSC ><
#1911SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
I hope you realize its never what buff you want its what buff they want to give you.
Luckily I'm the paladin with the best attendance, and I assign everyone else's buffs because they're lazy.
#1912SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
I hope you realize its never what buff you want its what buff they want to give you.
I assign buffs. it's ALWAYS about what I want.
#1913SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
While I usually am in charge of blessing assignments, the chain of thought I usually make clear to the raid is 'if there's a blessing you want, bug the appropriate paladin for it. If you don't know how blessings work, then STFU'.
#1914SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Regardless of whether you like it or not if there are 1 or 2 holy pallys raid healing they should have light on all the targets. Its too much gimpage (is that a word?) of their healing without it, and paladins are bad enough raid healers to start. I suppose the correct thing to do in those situations is to kindly ask the pally doing Light to give you a single Wisdom or just take the GWisdom and ask for a 10 minute Might or something. I don't know, it depends how many pallys you have in the raid. >.<
#1915SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by noth View Post
Yes, and we do it because then your instantly re-seal when you judge, adn there's no downtime chance for a swing to happen when there's no seal up. you judge 9 seconds instead of 8, because that keeps it from landing on your crusader strike. Most of us have our judgement talented to an 8 second cooldown, and simply are careful to prioritize their judgement lower than CS, if CS will come up before the GCD from resealing is done, they wait.
Thats the answer I was for. Wasn't sure if people specced 1/2 Imp Judgement just to prevent the override or just prioritized like I do.
#1916SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
Why are you assigning your Paladins to raid heal?
Leave that to Chain Heal and Circle of Healing.
#1917SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Why are you assigning your Paladins to raid heal?
Leave that to Chain Heal and Circle of Healing.
Because some of us don't have 100000000 priests and shamans sitting around doing nothing.

Sometimes you just don't have enough healers and you have to have people who aren't ideal fill in the gaps.
#1918SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Why are you assigning your Paladins to raid heal?
Leave that to Chain Heal and Circle of Healing.
On several fights, paladins make the best raid healers - for example, Najentus let the shamans / priests spot heal melees on him and the paladins can fol to top up all the ranged casters/healers. On Council, you don't get a lot of people getting hit for a bit of damage, you get one person getting raped for 9k by poison, so paladins topping people off works pretty damn well.
#1919SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TheCyborg
Originally Posted by Sal the Pal View Post
I have put macro security under security center to low, but I still get a run time error (in swedish) 1004 can't find Method "range" in object "_Global". (My translation of the error message.) Could it be related to me running a swedish version 2007?
I had the same problem using danish office 2007. Whenever you click a button and get the error message, press the debug button.
An editor will popup with a line highlighted. An example could be:
Range(Names("MyEnchants")).EntireRow.Hidden = False
To fix the error, edit the line like this:
Range("MyEnchants").EntireRow.Hidden = False

Close the window and press the button again. Repeat till you get no more errors.
#1920SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sal the Pal
Originally Posted by TheCyborg View Post
I had the same problem using danish office 2007. Whenever you click a button and get the error message, press the debug button.
An editor will popup with a line highlighted. An example could be:
Range(Names("MyEnchants")).EntireRow.Hidden = False
To fix the error, edit the line like this:
Range("MyEnchants").EntireRow.Hidden = False

Close the window and press the button again. Repeat till you get no more errors.
Worked like a charm.

Thank you very much Cyborg!

/target Bellator
/Salute

An already incredible tool just turned even more incredible!
#1921SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
On several fights, paladins make the best raid healers - for example, Najentus let the shamans / priests spot heal melees on him and the paladins can fol to top up all the ranged casters/healers. On Council, you don't get a lot of people getting hit for a bit of damage, you get one person getting raped for 9k by poison, so paladins topping people off works pretty damn well.
Eh have you tried to heal up a group of 2 Hunters 2 Mages and your self? Its not really the easiest thing to do on a fight like Naj'entus.

I have always assigned 2 Paladin on the MT, usually 1 Druid or Shaman on Melee, and then each other group gets its own healer. Usually its 1 CoH Priest, 1 Druid, 1 Shaman. And then if anyone else is remaining they are spot healers and spine healers.

2 Paladins mid rank holy lighting and HoTs before a bubble burst is the easiest way to break down the raid. If a Paladin gets spined the raid healers get on the MT or the other Paladin ranks up.
#1922SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarkan-ZdC
Originally Posted by conner686 View Post
As I recall, that test was the one where Raam died while I was asleep. I woke up shortly after, realized I wasn't hearing swings anymore, and stopped logging, but didn't bother trimming off the extra half hour or so.

I'm largely unconvinced looking at how long the test took to take and calculating backwards from that is appropriate. Its highly unlikely Blizzard has some complex code that tries to keep the PPM right at 7; that is simply too complicated and unreliable from a development standpoint. Its more likely its done the way most people suggest doing it: take the speed, and calculate a chance per hit from it.

However, in this case either way is identical since there's no chance for parries and the combat was uninterupted; the problem is that I observed a 15.6% miss rate, not 15%. Tack on the extra 0.6%, and the number comes back down to 3023.
Ah, this explains the time.

For the calculation, if I do it the other way arround, same thing.

3,8 Weapon speed gives a 44,3% Chance to proc
3,36 Weapon speed gives a 39,2% Chance to proc

Making 9139 Attacks with a 15,64% miss chance and a 44,3% proc chance (damn.. We need somebody with knowledge in statistics *g* my calculation is to simple..)

Should be 3,8 with 100% Hit: 4051 procs and with 15,64% miss 3503
Should be 3,36 with 100% Hit 3582,488 procs and with 15,64 miss 3097

Looks a lot more like it was normalized, so you're not seeing more that about 7 PPM if you have haste.
#1923SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
/target Sal the Pal
/Salute

....Anyway, just a quick note to say hey guys, havent updated the spreadsheet in about a month (and i know there are things that urgently need updating....green gem slots for one :p). However in the last month I have been away on business for a week, ill for a week, playing Pirates of the Burning Sea for a week (god that game is so poor), and without a computer for a week (it went BOOM!).

Anyway i logged on for the first time in about 4 months, and killed Zul'Jin 30mins later with no UI which was fun:p. There should be an update however in the not too distant future with a number of bug fixes corrections (and depending if 2.4 info has been put on PTR by then including any class changes from that)

Anyway, glad to see the thread still live and kicking and i'll get back to you soon.
#1924SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Subject View Post
Eh have you tried to heal up a group of 2 Hunters 2 Mages and your self? Its not really the easiest thing to do on a fight like Naj'entus.

I have always assigned 2 Paladin on the MT, usually 1 Druid or Shaman on Melee, and then each other group gets its own healer. Usually its 1 CoH Priest, 1 Druid, 1 Shaman. And then if anyone else is remaining they are spot healers and spine healers.

2 Paladins mid rank holy lighting and HoTs before a bubble burst is the easiest way to break down the raid. If a Paladin gets spined the raid healers get on the MT or the other Paladin ranks up.
WWS Loading... 2 paladins on the maintank + one tree, one paladin topping raid off beating both a CoH priest and a chain heal shaman.

WWS Loading... same etc..

If you are topping single people getting hit, HL is pretty damn good.
#1925SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
This thread has been derailed. Holy crap needs to go elsewhere, get your own damned thread this one is for Retribution.
#1926SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
This thread has been derailed. Holy crap needs to go elsewhere, get your own damned thread this one is for Retribution.
A poster in this thread claimed that paladins are wasted as raid healers and I wanted to counter him with facts. It might not be pertinent to the original topic, but I'd rather correct mis-information wherever I find it.
#1927SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Fine, you have accomplished this, back to Retribution theorycraft. Thank you.
#1928SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sandyr
Hello. From a raid leader's point of view, I was wondering how much DPS I should expect a ret paladin to be able to put out at the entry to T6 and end game T6 level. We're recruiting a few more melee, and trying to decide whether or not were at a point where throwing a retribution paladin into the mix would be a worthwhile raid addition to us, and I figured this was the place to find out what we should expect.
#1929SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
If the paladin has 95% of the gear he/she needs from TK, SSC and ZA, I would think 1000-1100dps would be average, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. This is for Alliance pallys, I dunno about our Horde side cousins who get the better seal.
#1930SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarkan-ZdC
Originally Posted by Sandyr View Post
Hello. From a raid leader's point of view, I was wondering how much DPS I should expect a ret paladin to be able to put out at the entry to T6 and end game T6 level. We're recruiting a few more melee, and trying to decide whether or not were at a point where throwing a retribution paladin into the mix would be a worthwhile raid addition to us, and I figured this was the place to find out what we should expect.

Check the first page, there is a DPS Spreedsheet. It features some pre-made Sets (T4/T5/T6) with weapons and enchants.

From a Raid Leader point, one thing, if you check the spreadsheet you'll see that there are some buffs selected (like windfuror totem). If you de-select them you'll see what the DPS does (drops, big time *g*), so if you plan to bring one, put him to a group with:

- Windfuror
- Battle shout
(Feral Druid helps to)

But at least those two. With them he scales very well. Without them you'll see a much reduced DPS.

With my T4 (4 parts) + PvP + Maulgar Hammer I had a average of about 750 DPS in Karazhan (no support in my group *g*). I'm sure with a better weapon (sword of ZA, S2/S3 Weapon) and a WF/Off-Warrior Group 1k DPS should be no big deal.
#1931SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Thinking about expertise cause it would be nice to be lazy and not have to get behind the mob all the time. Theoretical expertise cap on a boss mob is 89.7 rating according to WoWwiki. So I wanted to see how hard it would be to attain this. Since I'm human I get 5 experise when I wield a mace or sword. At 3.94 expertise rating per 1 expertise point my racial should account for 19.7 rating. This reduces the necessary expertise rating required to 70 a much more attainable number.

Slap on [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] worth 10 expertise and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] worth 25, both from SSC and your required amount is down to 35 rating. I also happen to be exalted with Lower City which gets me the [Shapeshifter's Signet] and I am down to needing 15 more rating.

At this point to secure expertise cap you could put on [Brooch of Deftness] but that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the other items are good DPS pieces some best in slot. You could also use [Grips of Deftness] for a perfect 15 but you would have to sacrifice [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]which are best in slot by a mile.

Anyways just wanted to know if any more powerful theorycrafting brains out there could see a flaw in my math for getting capped.

Thanks for your time.
#1932SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Charsi
I have 30 expertise (not rating) in my tank set. I still get parries, because boss mobs seem to have a much higher chance to parry than they do dodge. So, don't be lazy and stand in front of the mob.

You could eliminate dodges and misses with some expertise when attacking from behind. I believe that's accomplished at 24 expertise, assuming level 73 mobs have a 6% chance to dodge. I see rare dodges attacking from behind with my 5 Expertise racial plus 2/2 Weapon Mastery (3.25% dodge reduction), but I see no dodges in my tanking set.
#1933SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Xusto
Retri addons (timers)

Sorry about this noob question but is there any addons that help controlling the casting and judgment times in order to allow coordination with swing timer... at the moment i am using:

1.Quartz (but this to my knowledge not give any bar with seal up time only the swing time)

Also can any of you guys post what u using in term of addons.

Thx

note. excellent forum gratz to all that post on it ...
#1934SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
The belt and the shoulders are really the only two items with expertise worth using. Hopefully we'll get better expertise dps gear with Sunwell.
#1935SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Originally Posted by Charsi View Post
I have 30 expertise (not rating) in my tank set. I still get parries, because boss mobs seem to have a much higher chance to parry than they do dodge. So, don't be lazy and stand in front of the mob.

You could eliminate dodges and misses with some expertise when attacking from behind. I believe that's accomplished at 24 expertise, assuming level 73 mobs have a 6% chance to dodge. I see rare dodges attacking from behind with my 5 Expertise racial plus 2/2 Weapon Mastery (3.25% dodge reduction), but I see no dodges in my tanking set.
Hrmm, interesting. Even if I did get capped I wouldn't attack from the front on purpose would just be nice to not have to worry about those situations when the mob gets turned or such causing a parry on the mob and spiking the tank to death.
#1936SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by Sandyr View Post
Hello. From a raid leader's point of view, I was wondering how much DPS I should expect a ret paladin to be able to put out at the entry to T6 and end game T6 level. We're recruiting a few more melee, and trying to decide whether or not were at a point where throwing a retribution paladin into the mix would be a worthwhile raid addition to us, and I figured this was the place to find out what we should expect.
Honestly the DPS isn't the entire benefit of a Ret Paladin. Another Blessing, huge MP5 back for your casters, JoLight constantly up.

But i'd say roughly 1000 DPS. As that is what I was pulling when I started raiding as Ret in T4/S3 gear with a Stormherald in Hyjal.
#1937SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Subject
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
WWS Loading... 2 paladins on the maintank + one tree, one paladin topping raid off beating both a CoH priest and a chain heal shaman.

WWS Loading... same etc..

If you are topping single people getting hit, HL is pretty damn good.
I was putting it in regards to group healing aka assigned to 4-5 people and not just single target and top off. Obviously with the control of Holy Light they'd be quick enough and mana efficent enough to do so. However we run Different strats on the fight; I assign 1 person to keep up their own group and 2 healers for the MT, with some random raid healers. As well as you ran with 4 Holy Paladins, I usually run 2-3 at max. If I run 3 i'd have one raid heal. Haven't had 4 Holy Paladins in a raid since we recruited more Resto Shamans :p

Also on that first WWS you linked, look how many deaths you have.

This is our WWS from Wednesdays Naj Kill - WWS Loading...

Take it as you wish.

However this thread is now back onto Ret Theory Crafting :p

Last edited by Subject : 02/08/08 at 10:16 AM.
#1938SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I've done the whole group healing on Naj'entus; its a pain in the ass and its far from ideal, but it is doable if you have the gear to support it. *shrug*

Boss parry rate is somewhere between 10 and 15% according to most tests. However, even if you did get "capped" on expertise (which you can't) you still would never want to attack from the front. Expertise only negates dodges and parrys, you can still be blocked even if you're both hit and expertise capped.
#1939SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Elloris
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I've done the whole group healing on Naj'entus; its a pain in the ass and its far from ideal, but it is doable if you have the gear to support it. *shrug*

Boss parry rate is somewhere between 10 and 15% according to most tests. However, even if you did get "capped" on expertise (which you can't) you still would never want to attack from the front. Expertise only negates dodges and parrys, you can still be blocked even if you're both hit and expertise capped.
Do you know of anywhere to view these tests?

Also, the parry things is fine but do you know if my numbers for eliminating dodge from my combat table is correct?

Last edited by Elloris : 02/08/08 at 11:43 AM.
#1940SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I want to say it was either in the melee mechanics discussion or someone posted in here back when 2.3 first came out. I don't remember exactly, but basically its just from looking at WWS's of various tanks against bosses. I do remember that its different for each boss though.

To the best of my knowledge dodge percent is still 5.6%, so yes your expertise number should be correct.
#1941SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Sandyr View Post
Hello. From a raid leader's point of view, I was wondering how much DPS I should expect a ret paladin to be able to put out at the entry to T6 and end game T6 level. We're recruiting a few more melee, and trying to decide whether or not were at a point where throwing a retribution paladin into the mix would be a worthwhile raid addition to us, and I figured this was the place to find out what we should expect.
It really depends on the fight... if you want to look for an idea feel free to browse my guild's WWS in my sig, and you'll get a good idea. Some fights we do better than others. Disregard this week's teron though, I was running a 500 ping and missing two of my macros. Usually, I place 5-8th on the meters.... normally rogues + locks beat me, and sometimes the hunters. I pretty regularly beat the mages and all other hybrid dpsers.

If you want pure dps numbers though, I usually do anywhere between 1400 and 1800 dps, and have gotten as high as 2k dps. And thats with me still missing a MAJOR boots upgrade and a decent cloak upgrade.
#1942SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Sandyr View Post
Hello. From a raid leader's point of view, I was wondering how much DPS I should expect a ret paladin to be able to put out at the entry to T6 and end game T6 level. We're recruiting a few more melee, and trying to decide whether or not were at a point where throwing a retribution paladin into the mix would be a worthwhile raid addition to us, and I figured this was the place to find out what we should expect.
Plonk him in a group with an Enhancement Shaman and a Fury Warrior, top up with some Rogues and I think it would be acceptable to expect 1.2k DPS, if of course he knows what he's doing. Tight attack cycle, dropping consecrations and chugging Haste Potions and he should be fine.

As for buffs, in combination with 2 other Paladins he can keep 3 Judgements active:

Judgement of the Crusader = grants your entire raid 3% crit against the target.
Judgement of Wisdom = restores around 125Mp5 to all DPS (definite values are in the first post).
Judgement of Light = restores health to all melee hitting the target (Tanks included).

Combined with the extra blessing and the 2% damage buff to group (Sanctity Aura); and I think you'll find you will enjoy having a Retri chap amongst your ranks. <3

*Ignore the Haste Potion bit; just saw you were a Night Elf. Seal of Command doesn't benefit to greatly from Haste.*

Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
The belt and the shoulders are really the only two items with expertise worth using. Hopefully we'll get better expertise dps gear with Sunwell.
I wouldn't rule out the [Shapeshifter's Signet].

Until you progress into Hyjal and above it certainly appears to be a viable choice.
#1943SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
There is a trinket with 44 expertise in Sunwell, according to alledged leaks from MMO-Champion.
You can view them here.
#1944SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3conner686
Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC View Post
Ah, this explains the time.

For the calculation, if I do it the other way arround, same thing.

3,8 Weapon speed gives a 44,3% Chance to proc
3,36 Weapon speed gives a 39,2% Chance to proc

Making 9139 Attacks with a 15,64% miss chance and a 44,3% proc chance (damn.. We need somebody with knowledge in statistics *g* my calculation is to simple..)

Should be 3,8 with 100% Hit: 4051 procs and with 15,64% miss 3503
Should be 3,36 with 100% Hit 3582,488 procs and with 15,64 miss 3097

Looks a lot more like it was normalized, so you're not seeing more that about 7 PPM if you have haste.
Misses can't proc, so the 9139 value is worthless. Only the 7709 attacks that landed matter. That's what my original numbers were all based on: 7709 attacks with 100% hit.
#1945SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hammerheart
Wow Web Stats

I picked this fight where as a retri pala you have a less downtimes on doing dps...hope it helps you to make some calculations. You can also check my gear on armory. Mix of T5 and ssc/tk epics+ still 3 kara items and 1 gruul item, so not yet on the gear i am looking for
Maybe my gear on armory can help people that want to setup their gear for raiding.
I am not a great mathematician either to start fixing templates on excel and so on, but the dps cycle i use is:
(always crusader judgement up ofc)
SoC-->Judge-->Soc-->CS-->SoC time 4 sec--->Judge-->CS...ect. Consecration up is nice aswell, but not that vital since the spelldamage is low, so rather don't put it up if you ain't gonna make it and might loose a dps cycle round.

Open for any discussion.

Edit: Haste is a good stat. I experimented a bit replacing Mongoose with Savagery...i noticed loosing a good portion of my overall dps, so i switched back to Mongoose...expensive experiment, but had to be done
#1946SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Diraphise
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
JoC is a spell, so you get -1000 threat when it crits.

May I ask why you're interested in this trinket? Pre-threat reduction it was a godsend, I used to use it on almost all fights.

Post threat reduction, it's virtually impossible to pull aggro off a good tank if you have salvation. I've banked my Prism of Inner Calm and consider sharding it, since it serves no purpose anymore.

If you have threat problems with salvation and 5/5 fanaticism, then the problem most definitely does not lie with you.
Yeah, I don't have threat problems in most fights, but I thought it might be nice for fights with tank knockback, threat wipes, or adds.

Is your Prism threat data pulled from a threat meter or just common sense? I'm still unsure about JoC - it does use spell hit, but on the other hand it goes through spell reflection and eats my World Breaker buff.. although, looking at the item just now, it's true that the buff would apply to certain schizophrenic spells that use melee crit.

Oh well, the point about being able to open up a whole two seconds earlier is a valid one.
#1947SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aramul
Originally Posted by Diraphise View Post
Is your Prism threat data pulled from a threat meter or just common sense?
Melee: Crit Threat Reduction Melee - Spells - World of Warcraft :: Threat Reduction - Spells - World of Warcraft
Spell: Crit Threat Reduction Spell - Spells - World of Warcraft :: Threat Reduction - Spells - World of Warcraft
#1948SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Another small benefit of Judgement of Light being up on the target is that the proc heals him and the healing counts as he is doing it i.e. causes threat as if he cast a healing spell, not a huge deal, but every little bit counts.
#1949SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Has anyone started the maths for a reply in this thread [Melee] Optimal Group Makeup (this time with sims)

I'm hoping the usual ret theorycrafter's come through otherwise I may have to make time to do the maths myself.
#1950SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarkan-ZdC
Originally Posted by conner686 View Post
Misses can't proc, so the 9139 value is worthless. Only the 7709 attacks that landed matter. That's what my original numbers were all based on: 7709 attacks with 100% hit.
but but... does miss not reduce the total number of procs? If you have 7 ppm and then miss like 15% should you see like 6 procs per minute?
#1951SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
I believe what he means is that, the Attack has to pass the (hit) roll to even have a chance to proc, so Hit Chance wouldn't affect Proc chance at all. since ONLY hits can proc.

I may be mistaken but i gather that is what he meant.
#1952SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3conner686
Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC View Post
but but... does miss not reduce the total number of procs? If you have 7 ppm and then miss like 15% should you see like 6 procs per minute?
Yes, and no. Yes, I won't actually see 7 PPM because 15% of my attacks missed. No, that does not affect the chance of the attacks that did land proccing.

Thought experiment: You have a 8.6s weapon with a 100% chance to proc SoC. Every single time an attack lands, SoC will proc. However, you also have a 15% miss rate. So in 1 minute, you can expect to see 7 attacks, one of which will miss. All six of the attacks that did land will proc SoC. In essence, you will observe 6 PPM, but you still have a 100% chance for SoC to proc, and calcualtions based on those 6 hits will yield 7 PPM [(1 Hit / 8.6s) * (1 Proc / Hit) * (60s / Minute) = 7 Procs/Min].

In retrospec, I wish I had performed a test without any haste gear to show the math there, but I didn't think it would be neccessary since 7 PPM is pretty universally accepted as accurate.

*edit: I guess the moral here is wait for the PTR to come out hope the guy buying a bunch of badge gear can be both hit and expertise capped, so that this whole subset of the conversation doesn't even come up.
#1953SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
There's no way to ID item stats without a PTR is there? Even if you already know the exact item IDs?

I ask because I'm really painfully dreadfully curious to find out what, if anything, they've done to Retribution paladin T6.
#1954SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
I ask because I'm really painfully dreadfully curious to find out what, if anything, they've done to Retribution paladin T6.
The devs did something, the PTR should be up around Tuesday, you can wait a few more days.


For ret changes, niost librams are being buffed a little bit, nice to know if you don't have Avengement or the Command libram yet.
#1955SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
you can wait a few more days.
no :*(
#1956SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Agonar
Any screenshots out there of the new "Adjusted" Ret Sets? US PTR is down atm, but im assuming people from EU can see them.

Last edited by Agonar : 02/09/08 at 5:34 AM.
#1957SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seele
With the 2.4.0 PTR, we will be allowing US, EU and Korean players to access all available PTR realms. Players will be able to choose which test realm they wish to play on without being restricted by region. We currently plan to make all PTR realms available in this way for all future patches. Thats quoted from bornakk on the US ptr boards. So if there down for us i would think everyones would be down if we can all access each others realms and no realms are showing currently.
#1958SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Agonar
Im sorry, i meant the Character Copy on the US side is down. Not sure for EU.
#1959SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sorry
EU PTRs are not up at the moment.
#1960SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
They are now!

Someone find out :*(
#1961SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Well I still can't copy over (4 day wait is the suck) but MMOC has a nice screenshot of our new 3 pieces for tier 6. In case you didn't hear, 3 more pieces of T6 will be dropping in SWP so that you can wear the new sets but still maintain bonuses from tier 6 (which are very good for most classes).

Anyway, without more ado:


Three things strike me from these stats.
1) 4 piece bonus is still craptastic.
2) No intellect. Odd for retribution gear to be exactly the same as warrior gear. STR > INT conversion inc?
3) Haste. Either they're gonna rework SoC finally, give everyone SoB, or bone alliance pallys.

Discuss!
#1962SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ankler
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Well I still can't copy over (4 day wait is the suck) but MMOC has a nice screenshot of our new 3 pieces for tier 6. In case you didn't hear, 3 more pieces of T6 will be dropping in SWP so that you can wear the new sets but still maintain bonuses from tier 6 (which are very good for most classes).

Anyway, without more ado:


Three things strike me from these stats.
1) 4 piece bonus is still craptastic.
2) No intellect. Odd for retribution gear to be exactly the same as warrior gear. STR > INT conversion inc?
3) Haste. Either they're gonna rework SoC finally, give everyone SoB, or bone alliance pallys.

Discuss!
Can't wait to see the rest of the set, though I was really hoping for a decent four piece
#1963SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
I full expect alliance paladins to get boned, has been the case since BE Paladins were released. /palmface
#1964SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Masnie
While i somehow couldn't get the stats on T6, I checked the T5 stats to get a general idea of the Item changes:




Checked S2 arena gear, and its spell-damage got changed into strength (still no resilience).

Last edited by Masnie : 02/09/08 at 11:43 PM.
#1965SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Wow, tier gear without green text. It has been a while.

Interesting stuff, and about what I expected to see (looks like season 3 gear in most respects). They just took the spell damage off and dumped it all into Strength.

These are interesting though in the fact that they still have their intellect whereas the new T6 pieces don't. Mistaken itemization or something more sinister?

Thanks!
#1966SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
All looks very promising.

The new Engineering goggle upgrades look fantastic as well:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...newgoggles.jpg

Look at the "Mayhem Projection Goggles". I'm sure many Retri Paladins would be considering Engineering now!
#1967SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Well Decision from the Smolderthorn (US) server was able to get onto the PTR and ran down to Hyjal to check out T6 for us.



Just as expected, Blizzard took the path of least effort and dumped everything into Strength (and yet still forgot to change socket bonuses). Meh.
#1968SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
Still forgot to take off the 9mp5 on the legs
#1969SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just as expected, Blizzard took the path of least effort and dumped everything into Strength (and yet still forgot to change socket bonuses). Meh.
Rofl.

Most of this feels like a hack job, they didn't have enough man power so they left the cleaning lady to do the retri fixes in her spare time.

I really hope the haste on the wrist/boots/bracers is a joke. And not changing the T6, 4 set bonus again, damn it's insulting how oblivious the developers are to how retri paladins work.

Without a mechanics change (STR -> Spelldamage and STR -> mp5 and giving SoB to alliance) this is going to be one painfully worthless "fix".
#1970SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ankler
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Rofl.

Most of this feels like a hack job, they didn't have enough man power so they left the cleaning lady to do the retri fixes in her spare time.

I really hope the haste on the wrist/boots/bracers is a joke. And not changing the T6, 4 set bonus again, damn it's insulting how oblivious the developers are to how retri paladins work.

Without a mechanics change (STR -> Spelldamage and STR -> mp5 and giving SoB to alliance) this is going to be one painfully worthless "fix".
Personally I love the boots, bracers, and waist. SoB FTW
#1971SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I really hope the haste on the wrist/boots/bracers is a joke.
Not if SoB is given to everyone. If not, at least one side gets good items .


The 9 mp5 on the legs isn't bad, but it does further prove that all the devs did was change spell damage into strength.
#1972SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
I find it amusing that the lightbringer parts will almost unanimously have the highest STR of any item in the game for those slots, when the change is made. 78 str (with a spinel) puts it 8 ahead of the archimonde pants.
#1973SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Not if SoB is given to everyone. If not, at least one side gets good items .


The 9 mp5 on the legs isn't bad, but it does further prove that all the devs did was change spell damage into strength.
Unless it's just extra stats not counting against the item budget, it IS bad. Mp5 is an expensive stat, and having 9 of it floating randomly on a piece of gear doesn't help whatever mana issues we might have. Turn it into hit, crit, strength, haste, armor pen, or what have you, and all would be better off.


I'm fairly underwhelmed by these changes. It helps somewhat in improving the chest and shoulders I'm already wearing, but I can't see myself using these newly upgraded pieces over S3 gloves, Archi/Gurtogg legs, or a Shatterer helm or Cursed Vision. I'd really been hoping for a fix on the useless 4-piece(5% more damage on your damaging seals, it's sitting right there!) and a less generic improvement of stats, but I guess I'll enjoy a free 31 strength upgrade on patch day and move right along as I was. I can't help but wonder what those legs would look like if you switched the mp5 to a decent stat, even hit. Maybe I'll continue to hold out hope for a later PTR build further improving the set, as I can't imagine the spell damage socket bonuses going live.
#1974SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rakki
Effect of haste on SoC

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand why haste rating would not benefit SoC, as implied by several previous posts.

Doesn't the proc chance per swing of SoC depends only on default weapon swing speed (i.e. before haste effect is taken into account)? If that's the case, haste should increase the number of SoC procs per minute without lowering its damage per proc. Or am I wrong? Can someone explain to me please? Thanks in advance.
#1975SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Rakki View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand why haste rating would not benefit SoC, as implied by several previous posts.

Doesn't the proc chance per swing of SoC depends only on default weapon swing speed (i.e. before haste effect is taken into account)? If that's the case, haste should increase the number of SoC procs per minute without lowering its damage per proc. Or am I wrong? Can someone explain to me please? Thanks in advance.
Although there has been some recent testing which may indicate otherwise, current accepted theorycraft is that SoC's proc chance is based on hasted weapon speed, meaning haste will give a null increase in seal damage for SoC, only affecting white damage for Alliance paladins.
#1976SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Oxudes
Well, I'm not happy : /. The set IS better for me than it was before, but the changes are done poorly, very poorly.

And s3 gloves are still superior : /
#1977SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tarja
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Unless it's just extra stats not counting against the item budget, it IS bad. Mp5 is an expensive stat, and having 9 of it floating randomly on a piece of gear doesn't help whatever mana issues we might have. Turn it into hit, crit, strength, haste, armor pen, or what have you, and all would be better off.
Why does everyone want them to take off mp5, but have no problem with them leaving intellect on? mp5 is a FAR better PVE stat for us than Intellect. With 1 mp5 costing approximately the same itemization value as 2.5 Intellect, the breakeven point where you would gain the same effective mana from X mp5 and X intellect would be around 3.5 minutes. Almost every PVE fight these days takes well over 3.5 minutes - so why do people dislike mp5 but have no problem with Intellect being on our gear?

Incidentally, I would also argue that most PVP battles where mana becomes an issue last over 3.5 minutes - although not always, with manaburn involved. So for PVP gear I think it is very debatable which is better.
#1978SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Subject
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Unless it's just extra stats not counting against the item budget, it IS bad. Mp5 is an expensive stat, and having 9 of it floating randomly on a piece of gear doesn't help whatever mana issues we might have. Turn it into hit, crit, strength, haste, armor pen, or what have you, and all would be better off.


I'm fairly underwhelmed by these changes. It helps somewhat in improving the chest and shoulders I'm already wearing, but I can't see myself using these newly upgraded pieces over S3 gloves, Archi/Gurtogg legs, or a Shatterer helm or Cursed Vision. I'd really been hoping for a fix on the useless 4-piece(5% more damage on your damaging seals, it's sitting right there!) and a less generic improvement of stats, but I guess I'll enjoy a free 31 strength upgrade on patch day and move right along as I was. I can't help but wonder what those legs would look like if you switched the mp5 to a decent stat, even hit. Maybe I'll continue to hold out hope for a later PTR build further improving the set, as I can't imagine the spell damage socket bonuses going live.
To me, it has changed my ideas into my current gear setup. Right now I am Hit capped without precision, I plan to change this in order to benefit with more Str/Crit and maybe even some haste (despite it not being the best stat for an ally ret paly).

I still haven't finalized my set ideas, I am using the DPS Spreadsheet and I added the new items/stats in and am trying to decide where to go with it.

-edit-

This what my set seems like so far:
Mayhem Projection Goggles
34AP+16Hit Rating
12agi+3Crit damage
5st 4 Agi gem

T6 Shoulders:
15Crit+20AP
10Str
10Str

T6 Chest:
6Stats
10Str
10Str
10Str

Leggings of Divine Judgement
50AP 12 Crit

S3 Gloves:
15 Str

Dreadboots of the Legion:
+12 Agi
5Crit 7Stam
5Crit 7Stam

T6 Belt: (Will use Girdle of the Lightbearer until I acquire this, however need to see changes to it first)
10 Str Gem

T6 Bracers: (Will use Furious Shackles or Bladespire Warbands til I get it)
10 Str

Shadowmoon Destroyers Cape:
12 Agi

Pendant of the Perilous

Band of Eternity (exalted)

Unstoppable Agressors Ring

DMC: Crusade
Berserkers Call

Libram of Divine Judgement

Torch of the Damned
Mongoose

Last edited by Subject : 02/10/08 at 4:40 AM.
#1979SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Not if SoB is given to everyone. If not, at least one side gets good items .
Look, maybe it's because I've been playing this class for 3 years that I don't have such good faith in the devs, it's not the first time they do something like this without giving it a second thought (SoB is the best example... and this has been the case for a year now).

If they would be giving us SoB, I would have expected it to be announced left, right and center.
#1980SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Look, maybe it's because I've been playing this class for 3 years that I don't have such good faith in the devs, it's not the first time they do something like this without giving it a second thought (SoB is the best example... and this has been the case for a year now).

If they would be giving us SoB, I would have expected it to be announced left, right and center.
Maybe they're still not finished yet... there's still another 8 other classes and their specs to be balanced/attended, not to mention that new fangle 25 man instance and all those lovely dailies for more money/rep grinding/items~

dmg conversion into str on paladin gear is a gooood start, that benefits -all- paladins... some more than others, but all paladins will benefit (well.. maybe not the ones who do silly things like heal in pvp )

so maybe we should be a little more patient about what else is being changed...

edit: oh I am so glad I dropped mining for engineering now... =D

Last edited by CaptBooyah : 02/10/08 at 6:42 AM.
#1981SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Killmour
Just logged in, The t4 t5 vendor is basically more of the same. Some of the damage and healing replaced with hit, some with more strength and some with more crit.

For instance, T4 leggings are now:

53 Str
34 Stam
24 Int
24 Agil
23 hit rating.

Hope they give us alliance folk Seal of Blood with the amount of haste rating on the newer plate.
#1982SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
I can understand Belf paladins being ecstatic.

Exchanging spelldamage (which is worthless for SoB) with a prime stat like Str and adding a good chunk of haste (which is one of the best stats for Belfs) on the new T6 pieces is a major buff to horde paladins, make no mistake.


On the flipside (alliance):

The Spelldamage -> Str change for alliance paladins is marginal at best, considering SoC did benefit from spelldamage and the added penalty of JoC and Consecration just receiving no damage increase between being naked or wearing full T6.

And haste is even worse, where it's one of the least useful stats for alliance paladins.



For the tldr: The haste bit on the new T6 pieces, is of the same magnitude as if they had given horde rogues agi on their armor and alliance rogues str instead.


Just to illustrate (this is done with the spreadsheet, in my current hit capped T6 ret gear, no consecration/exorcism in rotation):

SoC:

Notice the Haste line (purple), hit capped, it's the lowest stat of all with the exception of Spelldamage.




SoB:


Notice the Haste line (purple), hit capped, it's the highest stat of all with the exception of the currently hard to attain WE (Weapons Expertise).

It actually shockingly shares its worth with Str for SoB at that level of gear (!!).


Last edited by Avitus : 02/10/08 at 7:05 AM.
#1983SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teer
Originally Posted by Killmour View Post
For instance, T4 leggings are now:

53 Str
34 Stam
24 Int
24 Agil
23 hit rating.
Huh. They converted the spell damage to strength, but also the 9 mp5 to 23 hit. But they didn't do it on t6 legs. Make no sense at all.
#1984SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Regarding the T6 spelldamage -> str change specifically:

They seem to have used a general weighting of 2.35 spelldamage per 1 point of Str.

For example, T6 helmet: 47 spelldamage -> +20 str


What does this mean for alliance/horde, different rotations wearing T6 (or anything else with spelldamage that's being changed to Str)?

My results with the spreadsheet (based on my gear, but it shouldn't be that much different for others):

Alliance paladins (SoC) using no consecration/exorcism:

4.2 spelldamage per 1 point of str!

Nice gain.

Alliance paladins (SoC) using all out consecration (rank 6)/exorcism (rank 7), extreme case like at Gorefiend:

1.7 spelldamage per 1 point of str!

Minimal loss.


Horde paladins (SoB) using no consecration/exorcism:

6.3 spelldamage per 1 point of str!

MASSIVE gain.

Horde paladins (SoB) using all out consecration (rank 6)/exorcism (rank 7), extreme case like at Gorefiend:

2.2 spelldamage per 1 point of str!

Almost no change.



Also noteworthy, paladins who had some spelldamage using only SoC and any ranks of Consecration between 3 and 6 should see a slight decrease.
#1985SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bellator
Hi Guys,

I'm hoping to get V31 of the spreadsheet with all the new items in etc by the end of the weekend. Anyway, here are some tidbits which i'm sure you all want to know....plus a little bit of itemisation information to explain some things as i dont thing everyone fully appreciates exactly how itemisation works.

1) The BAD - The upgraded tier sets are currently NOT an upgrade to dps. For example, accross the board, all 5 pieces of lightbringer are slightly worse in dps terms. Why is this? Looking at the legs as an example, the change is -51 Spell damage for 22 Strength. Now we know in itemisation terms that 1 str = 0.855 spdam (check wowwiki for this). Thus a straight swap would have meant 44 strength added. This is not blizzard being cheap, but its the fact that when you stack a stat the cost of itemisation goes up. If the legplates had originally had 0 str they would now have 44, but since they already have 46 str we only get 68. You are thus getting less bang for buck. Since str is far more powerful than spelldamage this counters the loss, however not enough, since abilities like SoC, JoC do still use spell damage. The official wow forums will whine, however i suggest not too as this is a positive move in removing spell damage from a paladins abilites. Once SoC JoC dont rely on spell damage these WILL be better than their replaced counterparts.

2) The Medium - Regarding the 3 new lightbringer items. Do NOT whine about haste (yes i'm looking at you alliance paladins). No haste doesnt effect SoC and yes horde will benefit more, but talking about itemisation again. Just like the effect of moving sp dam to str, the reverse is true when you move str to haste. If you skim the most expensive itemisation points from strengh and put them in haste then you get more haste than you lose strength. Haste is not as effective as strength, but the extra you get can make the difference, and in this case it does, these are excellent, best in class items. Better than any other items found in BT/MH

3) The Good - the 5 new "tier 7" items ROCK. Plain and simple, great upgrades

4) The Good pt 2 - The JC Hard Khorium Band (ring) and Hard Khorium Chocker (neck) are best of the best. Find a JC, have his babies and get these items :p

*Note my comments on being the best are in terms of what has been seen in game. If Kil'Jaeden drops a dps ring for example it will probably be better than the JC one.

**Note 2 - I havent commented on the new PvP blue buyable items because.....hahahahah....seriously just....hahahha trying to type about.....hahahaha..... the dps these provides makes me......hahahaha. If you want to kill a murloc get this set, otherwise raid bosses will see you as the murloc

Last edited by bellator : 02/10/08 at 7:25 AM.
#1986SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Hi Guys,

1) The BAD - The upgraded tier sets are currently NOT an upgrade to dps. For example, accross the board, all 5 pieces of lightbringer are slightly worse in dps terms.
Looks like we posted almost at the same time, this was my conclusion too at least for alliance paladins (read above) ^^


2) The Medium - Regarding the 3 new lightbringer items. Do NOT whine about haste (yes i'm looking at you alliance paladins).
...
these are excellent, best in class items. Better than any other items found in BT/MH
The bold part is true, but it is very valid to complain considering those items very heavily favor SoB.

With regards to best of best, I've already noted down the wrist (over Furious Shackles) and the belt (over Boneweave Girdle) as definite upgrades.

The new T6 boots are only a marginal upgrade if hit capped, otherwise Dreadboots of the Legion remain superior.
#1987SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Looks like we posted almost at the same time, this was my conclusion too at least for alliance paladins (read above) ^^
Avitus

Sorry about this, my post took about 2 hours to write as was busy updating things in the model, flicking between web pages etc. Never bothered to refresh for updates to the page in the mean time


Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The bold part is true, but it is very valid to complain considering those items very heavily favor SoB.
Totally agree it is a valid complaint that the horde is benefitting far more, however I would rephrase the compaint not so much that these items heavily favor SoB but more that SoB heavily favours haste (a picky technicality i know, but personally i am am happy with the items, but feel that SoC should be changed to accomodate haste and not the items changed)




Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
With regards to best of best, I've already noted down the wrist (over Furious Shackles) and the belt (over Boneweave Girdle) as definite upgrades.

The new T6 boots are only a marginal upgrade if hit capped, otherwise Dreadboots of the Legion remain superior.
Definately agree . I merely said to get the boots as at this level of raiding it's so easy to get hit capped that i assumed that for these types of items people would be. Though it is valid that if not hit capped dreadboots are better.


The Goodest - Apolyon (new 2H) kicks ass. Torch and Cataclysm are so 2007 :p
#1988SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teer
About the new JC neck and rings, anyone know where Sunmotes will come from? From the Sunwell raid instance, the 5 mans, or just rep? And the designs, they are buy able from the new faction? I'm a jewelcrafter myself, and these new items makes but the greedy little gemcutter and the ret paladin in me to start drooling :P

Originally Posted by bellator View Post
4) The Good pt 2 - The JC Hard Khorium Band (ring) and Hard Khorium Chocker (neck) are best of the best. Find a JC, have his babies and get these items :p
And even as I hate to break it to you, the neck is BoP
#1989SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
About the new JC neck and rings, anyone know where Sunmotes will come from? From the Sunwell raid instance, the 5 mans, or just rep? And the designs, they are buy able from the new faction? I'm a jewelcrafter myself, and these new items makes but the greedy little gemcutter and the ret paladin in me to start drooling :P
Chance are Sunmotes are the new Heart of Darkness
#1990SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kirion
I think its safe to bet that there will be more changes besides itemistaion in future ptr builds. I have a question though: what would be better, reworking SoC or adding some kind of str(ap)->dmg talent akin to enhance shamans?
#1991SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Killmour
Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
I think its safe to bet that there will be more changes besides itemistaion in future ptr builds. I have a question though: what would be better, reworking SoC or adding some kind of str(ap)->dmg talent akin to enhance shamans?
I'd rather see SoC take its proc rate off base weapon speed.

Last edited by Killmour : 02/10/08 at 8:09 AM.
#1992SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Paladin DPS Model V31 2.4

Hey guys, just a little update to the model. Had a lot of big changes i wanted to include but unfortunately lack of time left them out (such as ammendments to gemming in item calc). Any changes mentioned previously in this thread I have missed please let me know through PM. I kept a log but a computer crash / reformat lost them. If you asked for something and it's not in here, thats why

Please do not spam this thread with "Add Item X from PTR". All items discovered / ammended on PTR will find there way into later versions as i am keeping my eagle eyes out for them. Spamming to add them in will just clutter this thread.

jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

Changes:-

2.4 Changes:-
Crystalforge and Lightbringer updated items (Currently as "New Lightbringer Chest" etc)
New Tier 6 items (boot/belt/wrist) added
"Tier 7 pieces added"
JC ring and Neck added
Apolyon dps weapon added
Blue PvP buyable set added (god knows why)

Non 2.4 Changes:-
Ironstriders of Urgency socked bonus corrected
2/3/4 mp5 gems correctly give mp5 and not 8 hit rating
Khorium champions +hit stat corrected
Cloak of Fiends Added
"Add Item" section no longer has a green gem slot, but blue gem slot
#1993SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
The perfect change for Seal of Command would be:
45% (flat) chance to do 80% weapon damage.
I'd also like to agree with bellator about the new T6 pieces. We're moving from armor with no intellect to armor with no intellect and getting more damage. I don't see a reason to complain.
#1994SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Agrippina
Thanks Bellator, score on being the first downloader....yay for a wacked sleep schedule.

These changes interest me as well. I have to think there is something preliminary about them, given the apparently incomplete nature (spell dmg socket bonuses, no 4pc tier 6 change, etc). Let's hope 2.4 PTR has lots of wonderful changes in store just as the 2.3 did when they belatedly gave us our threat reduction and the angels sang.

Also, it seems to be given the rise of ret in arena - particularly the currently dominant druid/warr/ret combo - that theorycrafting hasn't been expanded to that in some way. Is this necessarily a completely PvE activity? (and I realize the pvp applications of much of the discussion, but that's ultimately a side route).
#1995SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The Goodest - Apolyon (new 2H) kicks ass. Torch and Cataclysm are so 2007 :p
Hells yea xD

3.8+ speed would have been better, but no, I'm not going to complain about a 2h with 625 max frontload and roughly 200 AP + the works.

A question though, has anyone seen a ret specific "t7" set or are we supposed to share it with the ms/fury warriors? And if so, what's going to happen to our mana pool?

And sorry if I have to keep hammering this, but it would be yet a more extreme tipping of the scales between horde and alliance paladins with the mass of haste on those sets.


Originally Posted by Agrippina View Post
Let's hope 2.4 PTR has lots of wonderful changes in store just as the 2.3 did when they belatedly gave us our threat reduction and the angels sang.
See, this is the exact point I'm not so sure of:

Was Blizzard intending to give us threat reduction, yet due to some extraordinarily incomprehensible reason decided it's best to not reveal it/patch it in until the very last second of PTR 2.3?

or

Did the overwhelming, crushing mass of forum posts on the Blizzard forums complaining about threat reduction when it wasn't included in the first bit cause someone at Blizzard HQ to go "hold the phone, the shit has hit the fan, we have to do something" and mobilize some changes?


Personally I believe in the second part. I don't think things will go nicely by default, people are being too naive. Blizzard don't always (and in the case of ret paladins quite frequently actually) know what they're doing. How else can you explain the joke that is the 4 set T6 bonus?
Problems have to be and should be reported and trumpeted while the PTR is up, cause if we wait till it hits live it'll be too late for any large changes.

Last edited by Avitus : 02/10/08 at 8:43 AM.
#1996SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Hmm, from what I got in my spreadsheet (with SoB), the new T6 items are almost universally best in slot, with the following exceptions:
Helm: Cursed Vision and Illidari Shatterer are still better.
Gloves: S3 is still better, and also the new Hard Khorium gloves are even better than S3.
Legs: Divine Retribution are still better (not by much, less than 2 dps), as are Bow-Stitched if you go with mail (again only 2 dps better than T6).
#1997SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tianan
Question for you Bellator:

I know over all it may not seem like much but I was curious to see what change the added value to the Libram of Righteous Power (now +36 damage) is. I was wondering if you adjusted this change in the latest version.
#1998SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tianan
Season 1 Changes

Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece

1547 Armor
45 Sta
23 Int
31 Str

r/r/y bonus: 4 Crit

Equip: Crit 38

Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets

967 Armor
34 Sta
14 Int
36 Str

Equip: Crit 24 - +20 on JoCrusader

Gladiator's Scaled Helm

1257 Armor
48 Sta
21 Int
45 Str

m/r bonus: 4 Resil

Equip: Crit 24

Gladiator's Scaled Legguards

1353 Armor
54 Sta
21 Int
48 Str

Equip: Crit 32

Gladiator's Scaled Shoulders

1160 Armor
34 Sta
15 Int
32 Str

r/y bonus: 3 Resil

Equip: Crit 24
#1999SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Personally I believe in the second part. I don't think things will go nicely by default, people are being too naive. Blizzard don't always (and in the case of ret paladins quite frequently actually) know what they're doing. How else can you explain the joke that is the 4 set T6 bonus?
Problems have to be and should be reported and trumpeted while the PTR is up, cause if we wait till it hits live it'll be too late for any large changes.
Well, as a blood elf I can't complain. I have to say I kind of feel bad... when I was going ret at first I kind of idolized you (you have a fanboy!). But after this, I'm kind of questioning Blizzard's recent changes. While they certainly kick ass for me, the alliance paladins are getting thoroughly screwed.

Regarding T7... I'm fairly sure they decided to skip the t7 and simply add three pieces to t6... I may be mistaken, so if anyone can prove otherwise please correct me. What saddens me is that the incredibly lackluster 4 piece bonus on t6 has not yet been changed, nor have additional bonuses been added to what is now an 8 piece set.
#2000SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
All the screens I have seen of the new vendors and loot makes it seem like the 3 new pieces of T6 are the set for SWP. There are armor "sets" in that the random pieces all look alike (much like the ZA stuff) but I haven't seen any kind of bonuses or whatnot for them.

3 pieces of set gear from 6 bosses sounds about right.
#2001SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Handled
Were in the same boat, I feel the reitemization of T6 has been done poorly by Blizzard the 3 new pieces will cause me to lose a huge amount of Hit so far in my current gear which is very much like yours. I have 153 Hit when I eat Hit food which is fine but losing [Red Belt of Battle], [Dreadboots of the Legion] will reduce my Hit rating far more then I would like.


I posted this some other places as well to get Paladins take on it but I feel as the new 3 pieces are weak and the reitemization of 213 Spell Damage to 90 Strength was a crude revamp that had zero thought or intelligence behind it.

Current T6 Ret

196 Strength
230 Stam
127 Int
213 Healing/Damage
130 Melee Crit
21 Melee Hit
9 Mana Regen

Revamped T6

286 Strength
230 Stam
127 Int
0 Healing/Damage
130 Melee Crit
21 hit
9 Mana Regen

Vengeful Gladiator's Vindication

Strength 215
Stamina 253
Intellect 119
Melee critical strike rating 152
Melee hit rating 36
Resilience rating 160

PvP Gear almost edges out T6 with offset pieces you can make it pretty close to as effective.

Last edited by Handled : 02/10/08 at 11:14 AM.
#2002SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
I'm sorry but i don't see the problem with the lack of hit on the lightbringer gear. In all honestly i thought the dps gear available for paladins previously had too much hit thrown around.

On the 8 pieces of lightbringer there are 6 yellow slots. If you stick 6 x +10 hit in these, then this + precision + the 21 hit from Lightbringer takes you past the hit cap. Any non armor pieces you get with +hit then replace the gems with +str or something.
#2003SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Well if you absolutely wanted to spec out of Precision you might find yourself a little lower. However, at least for the moment these new T6 pieces are clearly best in slot, even minus the hit rating, which can easily be made up for in other places (like bellator said).
#2004SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Handled
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I'm sorry but i don't see the problem with the lack of hit on the lightbringer gear. In all honestly i thought the dps gear available for paladins previously had too much hit thrown around.

On the 8 pieces of lightbringer there are 6 yellow slots. If you stick 6 x +10 hit in these, then this + precision + the 21 hit from Lightbringer takes you past the hit cap. Any non armor pieces you get with +hit then replace the gems with +str or something.

Yes and No you aren't accounting for the Meta if you socket full Hit, most Raiding Paladins don't have any in protection as the points are wasted Hit is possible from other sources. Some of the most common builds are 10/0/51 in sme variation, Yes I have see the Paladins that throw 8 into prot but they are few and far between.

I guess more the point being made is they could have pumped the Hit/Crit/ArP perferred they itemized with a shared stat between factions instead of dumping all 213 itemization points into strength only. There are other stats Horde and Alliance share that they could have itemized into Strength purely for a 213 to 90 conversion was bad IMO. the new pieces with Haste is as bad, they could have itemized those with a shared stat as well.

Maybe I should have said, Re-socketing all Hit out of my current all Strength to pickup 3 new pieces of gear itemized for my Spec doesn't actually help me it leaves me where I am with a matching set of gear. I would have perferred seeing a useful itemization rather then somewhat of the same result re-socketing Spinels.

Last edited by Handled : 02/10/08 at 11:50 AM.
#2005SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holynae
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I'm sorry but i don't see the problem with the lack of hit on the lightbringer gear. In all honestly i thought the dps gear available for paladins previously had too much hit thrown around.

On the 8 pieces of lightbringer there are 6 yellow slots. If you stick 6 x +10 hit in these, then this + precision + the 21 hit from Lightbringer takes you past the hit cap. Any non armor pieces you get with +hit then replace the gems with +str or something.
I think Bellator is right. The hitrating on my current gear, is way too much. I for myself wouldn't even go as far as putting 10 hit gems into the sockets of the revamped Tier 6 gear. There are plenty of items, that you can use, if you have access to the T6. You have to get 74 hitrating from items. If you want to go 8/8 Tier 6 then those 74 hitrating have to be on you neck, back, rings and trinkets.

[Choker of Endless Nightmares] 21hit
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] 17hit
[Madness of the Betrayer] 20hit
[Ring of Deceitful Intent] 19hit

Altogether 77hitrating, 3 too much, but close enough.
#2006SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Handled,

Can you explain why 10/0/51 is so popular and 8 in Prot is unpopular?

The reason i ask is that in pve terms, if you are not the raid's BoM'er you can take all the pve talents for 44 points in ret, put 9 in holy and 8 in Prot. The 3% hit you gain through talents means you dont have to get this through gear allowing your gear to have more str/crit instead. By not takin precision, the gain to dps you would get through other talents is minimal and means you have to waste gear allocation points to make up this 3% hit.

Thus I can't see whya pve paladin would want to avoid precision
#2007SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
5/8/48 is far more common in PvE than 10/0/51. People skipping DPS talents shouldn't really expect the gear to be tailored for them.
#2008SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Handled,

Can you explain why 10/0/51 is so popular and 8 in Prot is unpopular?

The reason i ask is that in pve terms, if you are not the raid's BoM'er you can take all the pve talents for 44 points in ret, put 9 in holy and 8 in Prot. The 3% hit you gain through talents means you dont have to get this through gear allowing your gear to have more str/crit instead. By not takin precision, the gain to dps you would get through other talents is minimal and means you have to waste gear allocation points to make up this 3% hit.
I guess this all gets back to raid makeup and other Paladin specs more then anything. I'm not really saying you or anyone else is wrong here I'm simply saying 213 itemization points for pure strength was a bad option and could have been done better and the 3 new pieces could have been itemized better as well. I was using Hit as a main example because I see a lot of people that don't have enough Hit, Maybe I should have said ArP or Expertise instead of Hit but the main point of the post is and always will be.

213 ITemization points spread out properly to assist the class could have been done differently creating overall better results. The addition of 90 Strength will be nice yes don't get me wrong but the addition of smaller amounts of other instead of paying a 2:1 ratio would have been overall better. I don't see a lot of classes that experience the same gear flaws. Maybe I'm just blind and haven't actually looked at all the other gear.
#2009SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimsch
dont see any reason not to spec precision, theres no other talent which could compensate for this on regarding pve dps
#2010SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Expertise would have been nice yes, but otherwise Strength is arguably the best way to spend itemization points across the board. ArP is less valuable than Strength per item point. We've traditionally complained that we had to focus on too many stats, so putting a lot of itemization points into strength isn't a bad thing per se.
#2011SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Handled,

Can you explain why 10/0/51 is so popular and 8 in Prot is unpopular?

The reason i ask is that in pve terms, if you are not the raid's BoM'er you can take all the pve talents for 44 points in ret, put 9 in holy and 8 in Prot. The 3% hit you gain through talents means you dont have to get this through gear allowing your gear to have more str/crit instead. By not takin precision, the gain to dps you would get through other talents is minimal and means you have to waste gear allocation points to make up this 3% hit.

Thus I can't see whya pve paladin would want to avoid precision
Well I wasn't commenting on my own behalf I was more so commenting on the fact that I hear and see a lot of Paladins lacking hit. I personally find prot talents useless because they don't bring me anything. I can create a larger sustained DPS sticking with a 10/051 build. I personally don't lack the Hit I have plenty and don't feel the 3% Hit for me is useful at all.

The new 3 PC set has Haste, I'm more so defending that Blizzard either forgot Alliance does not have SoB and does not greatly benefit from haste. By saying Hit would have been a better itemization or ArP or even Expertise. Really just saying Blizzard is bad at itemization, Personally I think people should spec to thier best possible DPS and some need prot talents others don't.
#2012SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Handled View Post
Well I wasn't commenting on my own behalf I was more so commenting on the fact that I hear and see a lot of Paladins lacking hit. I personally find prot talents useless because they don't bring me anything. I can create a larger sustained DPS sticking with a 10/051 build. I personally don't lack the Hit I have plenty and don't feel the 3% Hit for me is useful at all.

The new 3 PC set has Haste, I'm more so defending that Blizzard either forgot Alliance does not have SoB and does not greatly benefit from haste. By saying Hit would have been a better itemization or ArP or even Expertise. Really just saying Blizzard is bad at itemization, Personally I think people should spec to thier best possible DPS and some need prot talents others don't.
The 8 prot talent brings you 3% hit. I don't really see why this is being debated. If you skip the 8 points there, what do you gain that increases your DPS? 26AP on BoM and Divine Intellect?

Last edited by DarKNecross : 02/10/08 at 3:17 PM.
#2013SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Expertise would have been nice yes, but otherwise Strength is arguably the best way to spend itemization points across the board. ArP is less valuable than Strength per item point. We've traditionally complained that we had to focus on too many stats, so putting a lot of itemization points into strength isn't a bad thing per se.

Strength was the worst way to go based on a 2:1 Itemization Point Ratio is all I'm saying, We got the short end of the stick because there was very little thought put into what they could change to revamp it. 230 Spell Damage for 90 Strength any way you look at it is a rip off. The higher the stat value gets based on ilevel the more itemization points it costs to increase it this is what Blizzard proved to us with S3 gear when they dumped all ArP for Strength only. They just did the same thing with Spell Damage to Strength. I personally feel ripped off because we shouldn't have gotten the same treatment twice. Guess I need to find that itemization point cost post to see how many strength points actually cost us double but I'm willing to bet some even came close to a 3:1 value.
#2014SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
The prot talent brings you 8% hit. I don't really see why this is being debated. If you skip the 8 points there, what do you gain that increases your DPS? 26AP on BoM and Divine Intellect?
Assuming you meant 3% Hit and again I was simply stating that Blizzard gave us the short end of the stick spending such high point cost in only strength not trying to debate talent points. Used Hit as an example only should have used some other stat or not used an example and just posted raw data showing the cost of itemization points for 1 point of strength to get the point across.
#2015SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Veneda
Originally Posted by Killmour View Post
Just logged in, The t4 t5 vendor is basically more of the same. Some of the damage and healing replaced with hit, some with more strength and some with more crit.

For instance, T4 leggings are now:

53 Str
34 Stam
24 Int
24 Agil
23 hit rating.

Hope they give us alliance folk Seal of Blood with the amount of haste rating on the newer plate.
I'm quite suprised they didn't replace AGI with crit rating. Why stop in the middle with adjusting things?

Anyway, it's just tier 4.
#2016SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
If you skip the 8 points there, what do you gain that increases your DPS? 26AP on BoM and Divine Intellect?
An extra 26 AP (it is 44 extra with 5 points) spread over a 25 man raid adds up to more raid dps than having less hit on your gear.

Also, hit rating in current plate gear is not hard to reach the cap, however this new stuff doesn't have much hit on it.
#2017SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimsch
Oo perhaps you should try BoM 5/5 + precision 3/3
#2018SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Going back to the 2.4 discussion, both the Leatherworking and Blacksmithing BoP chests seem to be 'best in slot'. They're way above Lightbringer and at par or slightly above Warharness of Reckless Fury(for my gear setup), which is the Sunwell plate dps chest. This almost forces me to drop Enchanting to pick up LWing/BSing. If anyone else is also contemplating this, what's the better profession to pick? LWing has drums while it's more than likely that we'll see new Blacksmithing weapons at some point.
#2019SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3myth123
Improved might is the responsibility of a holy paladin who only needs 41 in holy to grab all his healing talents.
#2020SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Well, as a blood elf I can't complain. I have to say I kind of feel bad... when I was going ret at first I kind of idolized you (you have a fanboy!). But after this, I'm kind of questioning Blizzard's recent changes. While they certainly kick ass for me, the alliance paladins are getting thoroughly screwed.
/pat

Well, if there was a "small" difference between alliance and horde paladins so far (which was arguably possible to balance through higher consecration on alliance side with T6), with the new gear stacking tons of haste that gap is going to become pretty huge.

Yea it doesn't feel great to be screwed over like this, unless they give us SoB or change how SoC works to be the overall best seal with haste synergy (base it off the unhasted-base speed for example), this is going to be a very major problem, I can already see the whine threads popping up when the "majority of the public" realizes what's going on.


Originally Posted by Handled View Post
most Raiding Paladins don't have any in protection as the points are wasted Hit is possible from other sources. Some of the most common builds are 10/0/51 in sme variation, Yes I have see the Paladins that throw 8 into prot but they are few and far between.
I'm very sure, as others have stated, that it's the exact opposite here. Those 8 points you throw into prot have no place anywhere else to increase your DPS. Div Int is like taking 10% more of nothing = nothing.

On the flipside, if you don't take precision, you're losing the equivalent itemvalue of 3% hit which you could have gotten in STR/CRIT etc.

Previous math I did (dunno you'll have to flip back) indicated 3% hit is roughly equivalent to 120 AP in stat points = same as going unflasked vs everyone with a flask.


Originally Posted by Handled View Post
Guess I need to find that itemization point cost post to see how many strength points actually cost us double but I'm willing to bet some even came close to a 3:1 value.
As said previously, they used a static 2.35 spelldamage per 1 str point across the board for all T6 items. It's a nice increase in DPS for Belf paladins regardless of rotation, it's a very minimal increase for alliance paladins not using consecration/exorcism and a slight decrease for paladins using consecration and/or exorcism in their rotations.

I agree with your other point however, if they had spread the conversion around (spelldamage -> some str, some hit, some crit) we would have gained more.
#2021SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3myth123
You can't get +spell hit that precision gives you... losing DPS on exorcism and consecration isn't really a wise idea even if the loss is small.
#2022SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
An extra 26 AP (it is 44 extra with 5 points) spread over a 25 man raid adds up to more raid dps than having less hit on your gear.

Also, hit rating in current plate gear is not hard to reach the cap, however this new stuff doesn't have much hit on it.
If you're buffing the raid with Blessing of Might, you've got some logistical problems. The Ret Paladin is best used on either Light, Salv, or a combination thereof. Might should be left to the person who is already doing Wisdom.
#2023SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Wrl
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
If you're buffing the raid with Blessing of Might, you've got some logistical problems. The Ret Paladin is best used on either Light, Salv, or a combination thereof. Might should be left to the person who is already doing Wisdom.
This is probably the most wrong thing I've ever read.
#2024SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Before I start jumping to conclusions, can someone confirm that we're going to be sharing the "T7" dps plate which is loaded with haste/armpen with warriors?


Using bellator's latest spreadsheet (great work! ), wearing pre-2.4 maxed items, there's a roughly a 50 DPS difference between using SoC/SoB without using consecration.

Using "t7" warrior plate, there's a 100+ DPS difference between SoC/SoB, due to the synergy with haste.

Also in both cases, we gain up to 30% less from ArmorPen than warriors.



One more question that needs to be answered: Mana pool? Are they expecting us to run around with 4k mana buffed in full "t7" gear?
#2025SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Wrl View Post
This is probably the most wrong thing I've ever read.
Whereas your post is filled with discussion and helpful information.
There are 4 Blessings in a raid, as we all know.
Let's assume we have 4 Paladins in a raid.
Most builds won't have Kings, so that limits the number to 3.
Might and Wisdom are best done in tandem, since it only makes sense seeing as only 3 classes use both Might and Wisdom. You'd want the person with Improved Blessing of Wisdom to take this assignment. Of course, in an optimal raid, your Holy paladin would be spec'ed 42/11/8 having Improved BoM, Improved BoW, and BoK.
The next Paladin would do a blanket BoSalv, giving Hunters the buff the Paladin doing BoM/BoW didn't give them.
Lastly, one Paladin would do Blessing of Light, giving the Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladin the buff they didn't receive from the Might/Wisdom Paladin.
Since a Retribution Paladin doesn't have BoK or Improved BoW, he'd most likely be doing Salvation or Light. If he's doing Salvation, he would only be giving Blessing of Might to the Hunters, which in most raids is going to be 1-3 players.
If he's doing Light, he'll be giving himself and the Enhancement Shaman BoM. Either way, I don't see 26AP being applied to the entire raid, as it was put.
#2026SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Wrl View Post
This is probably the most wrong thing I've ever read.
Thanks for your amazing contribution.

Ideally you will have one raidbitch holy paladin with a spec similar to so doing Might and Wisdom. It makes buffing easier since most mana users will want Wisdom and the physical DPS will want Might, and you can have 1 person giving those out as needed.
#2027SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Before I start jumping to conclusions, can someone confirm that we're going to be sharing the "T7" dps plate which is loaded with haste/armpen with warriors?
oh yeah you have a point there. I saw it and simply assumed it was for us. Though i could only see 4 pieces as opposed to 5 for the other armor types. Anyone got a screenie of the 5th?
#2028SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
There's nothing else up on the Armor Vendor, and Data Mining only revealed the 4 Plate Armor Sets (Paladin Tank, Warrior Tank, Healing, DPS), so I'm going to assume we'd be using those items. At least it's not stacked with Hit like the 2.3 Badge gear.
#2029SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Donnel
On a slightly non-2.4 tangent, I'm curious why the Retribution paladin community has always pushed so hard to be rid of spell damage as a major stat. I realize this way we get to share in the DPS plate, but that seems like a weak copout. I'd rather just see real "retribution" items here and there and really powerful tiered gear.

I hate that in my retribution gear I'm a negligible healer. If the spell dmg coefficients were changed and the spell damage upped, why should we prefer STR over spell dmg? I'm just curious if there is a reason I'm missing that makes this a better mechanic rather than one that would encourage hybriding in non-raid environments (which I still do once in awhile, despite being in T4/5 equivalent plate).
#2030SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by Donnel View Post
On a slightly non-2.4 tangent, I'm curious why the Retribution paladin community has always pushed so hard to be rid of spell damage as a major stat. I realize this way we get to share in the DPS plate, but that seems like a weak copout. I'd rather just see real "retribution" items here and there and really powerful tiered gear.

I hate that in my retribution gear I'm a negligible healer. If the spell dmg coefficients were changed and the spell damage upped, why should we prefer STR over spell dmg? I'm just curious if there is a reason I'm missing that makes this a better mechanic rather than one that would encourage hybriding in non-raid environments (which I still do once in awhile, despite being in T4/5 equivalent plate).
Did that 200 extra spell damage make that much of a difference in your healing? I highly doubt it.

The class is Hybrid and no longer the pieces of gear so it no longer "hinders" damage. The last Hybrid Ret Paladin/Holy Paly set was Avengers and that was back in AQ40.

In regards to the previous discussion based on 5/8/48 vs 10/0/51 or some on, using the DPS Spreadsheet and dropping down to ~6% hit and +3 from precision my DPS went up about 40, due to being able to switch out a few pieces for more Crit and more AP.

You gain no PvE benefit from speccing 5/0/56 or 10/0/51 (besides 10% int), instead of 5/8/48. I raid as 5/0/56 right now because I am cheap on my respecs, however I plan to setup my toon to where I will be at 95 hit rating and everything else will be focused on Str, Crit and maybe even haste.
#2031SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Whereas your post is filled with discussion and helpful information.
There are 4 Blessings in a raid, as we all know.
Let's assume we have 4 Paladins in a raid.
Most builds won't have Kings, so that limits the number to 3.
Might and Wisdom are best done in tandem, since it only makes sense seeing as only 3 classes use both Might and Wisdom. You'd want the person with Improved Blessing of Wisdom to take this assignment. Of course, in an optimal raid, your Holy paladin would be spec'ed 42/11/8 having Improved BoM, Improved BoW, and BoK.
The next Paladin would do a blanket BoSalv, giving Hunters the buff the Paladin doing BoM/BoW didn't give them.
Lastly, one Paladin would do Blessing of Light, giving the Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladin the buff they didn't receive from the Might/Wisdom Paladin.
Since a Retribution Paladin doesn't have BoK or Improved BoW, he'd most likely be doing Salvation or Light. If he's doing Salvation, he would only be giving Blessing of Might to the Hunters, which in most raids is going to be 1-3 players.
If he's doing Light, he'll be giving himself and the Enhancement Shaman BoM. Either way, I don't see 26AP being applied to the entire raid, as it was put.
Don't all paladins these days use pally power anyways? I join the raid, get assist and set up pally power, I have imp might and am the Ret pally... so I do might/salv/light, and adjust accordingly... As long as you have pally power you don't need to say, "You! Do salv on everyone!" Makes it 100 times easier on buffing

On a 2.4 related note... with the spreadsheet currently I made a best of set gear with what we have seen so far (Did not put in the haste trinket since I don't know the uptime, and assumed a 60 second internal cooldown on the Expertise trinket) and I found that in my current gear set I will get a 400-500 dps increase going to the best in game set. Pretty substantial. I am curious how much something like a rogue will scale....

Edit: Also just for shits and giggles, with the fake patch notes that says 50% str ---> SPD, I inputed that just cause I was curious... and I gained an extra 110 dps Hope that change goes through.
#2032SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Donnel View Post
I hate that in my retribution gear I'm a negligible healer. If the spell dmg coefficients were changed and the spell damage upped, why should we prefer STR over spell dmg?
Hybrids aren't efficient, you need to many stats to pull it off. However, if you want to be able to spot heal, make a macro like this:

/equip Healing 1H
/equip Shield
/equip Libram
/cast Flash of Light

and another macro for Holy Light.

That is the best hybrid ability you are going to get while in Ret gear.


Assuming they had STR-> SD or Healing, it is better just to use healing stats.
#2033SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
You're going to want to make the macro cast the spell before equipping the healing items unless you want to wait for that GCD before you can heal.

/cast Flash of Light
/equip Vengeful Gladiator's Salvation
/equip Vengeful Gladiator's Redoubt
/equip Blessed Book of Nagrand

Keep in mind that even if you abort the spell, you still have to wait out the GCD.
#2034SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Don't all paladins these days use pally power anyways? I join the raid, get assist and set up pally power, I have imp might and am the Ret pally... so I do might/salv/light, and adjust accordingly... As long as you have pally power you don't need to say, "You! Do salv on everyone!" Makes it 100 times easier on buffing
Even with PP, when you have people getting random buffs midbattle (for example, Kings on people who were just Brezed, bouncing Salv on warlock tanks, etc.) its easier just to have one person doing a "this buff is yours" instead of 'light on the tank, salv on the DPS warriors, Might on the Rogues, Salv on the casters and healers, Might on yourself, Might on the Enhancement Shaman, and Might on the Hunters". Even with pally power its a pain to have to go through all that crap.

Can you make it so that Imp Might is worthwhile? Sure. But why bother when a perfectly capable raidbitch holydin can do it and you can spend your talent points in more worthwhile places?
#2035SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Donnel View Post
On a slightly non-2.4 tangent, I'm curious why the Retribution paladin community has always pushed so hard to be rid of spell damage as a major stat. I realize this way we get to share in the DPS plate, but that seems like a weak copout. I'd rather just see real "retribution" items here and there and really powerful tiered gear.

I hate that in my retribution gear I'm a negligible healer. If the spell dmg coefficients were changed and the spell damage upped, why should we prefer STR over spell dmg? I'm just curious if there is a reason I'm missing that makes this a better mechanic rather than one that would encourage hybriding in non-raid environments (which I still do once in awhile, despite being in T4/5 equivalent plate).
There's only one use for a retadin as a healer... emergency lay on hands on MT =P

As said earlier, you can't be a perfect hybrid in this game because the armour stats just wont let you. The best you come is OTing trash mobs or some small amount of healing to give healers breathing space (if any at all).

Before 2.3, all I ever heard retadins complain was about how many stats they need to be viable and how too many stats on one piece of armour will reduce the overall effectiveness. Enough whine to want to break out some cheese to go with it. Now, we get one stat eliminated from itemisation, which means more points for the more important bits.

Surely these changes are signs of good things to come.
#2036SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
ariesz
-----fixed-

Last edited by ariesz : 02/11/08 at 2:50 AM.
#2037SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pyralissa
Does anyone else find the fact that season one and season two still has no resilience completely baffling? The only difference between the two PVP sets and their PVE counterparts seem to be a focus on hit rating for the PVE sets. My Paladin alt in her badge/KZ/honor gearing is at the hit cap already. While being able to shed out poorly Ret itemized items like the [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] and switching the [Glyph of Ferocity] to the [Glyph of the Outcast] would help out at that level of gearing, doesn't it make the PVP/PVE difference essentially worthless?

When a blue post mentioned about these changes, it was misinterpreted by some as a new set of Retribution-friendly items on badge vendors. Blizzard went back and clarified saying they wanted to "make Paladins want the currently existing gear". I thought the tiered sets would someone make that a reality by focusing on lots of crit (or some secondary DPS stat) and using those off-set pieces to fill in hit rating gaps. But considering that the badge loot is laden with hit gear (to the point where it's not even very popular with Arms warriors) haven't they completely failed to reach that goal?

Perhaps more changes are due (as has been guessed at elsewhere at EJ) but in the meantime I'm completely baffled at Blizzard's decision making process. Also as a total aside, off-set "Paladin" items seem to remain unchanged (i.e. [Hammer of the Naaru] is unchanged on PTR).
#2038SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Pyralissa View Post
but in the meantime I'm completely baffled at Blizzard's decision making process. Also as a total aside, off-set "Paladin" items seem to remain unchanged (i.e. [Hammer of the Naaru] is unchanged on PTR).
You can't really call Hammer of the Naaru a Retribution item, since I remember more Holy Paladins gemming it for Spell Damage and using it to farm.
#2039SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Does anyone know the new stats for Girdle of the Lightbearer
#2040SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Whereas your post is filled with discussion and helpful information.
There are 4 Blessings in a raid, as we all know.
Let's assume we have 4 Paladins in a raid.
Most builds won't have Kings, so that limits the number to 3.
Might and Wisdom are best done in tandem, since it only makes sense seeing as only 3 classes use both Might and Wisdom. You'd want the person with Improved Blessing of Wisdom to take this assignment. Of course, in an optimal raid, your Holy paladin would be spec'ed 42/11/8 having Improved BoM, Improved BoW, and BoK.
The next Paladin would do a blanket BoSalv, giving Hunters the buff the Paladin doing BoM/BoW didn't give them.
Lastly, one Paladin would do Blessing of Light, giving the Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladin the buff they didn't receive from the Might/Wisdom Paladin.
Since a Retribution Paladin doesn't have BoK or Improved BoW, he'd most likely be doing Salvation or Light. If he's doing Salvation, he would only be giving Blessing of Might to the Hunters, which in most raids is going to be 1-3 players.
If he's doing Light, he'll be giving himself and the Enhancement Shaman BoM. Either way, I don't see 26AP being applied to the entire raid, as it was put.
3 Paladins in a Raid is ideal. I typically tend to not bring 4 of anything besides Druids or Priests.

1 Paladins does Kings on the Raid.
1 Does Wisdom/Salv (Light on Warriors)
1 Does Might/Salv

Kings Paladin -
Raid gets kings.

Wisdom/Salv Paladin -
Priest Druids Shamans Hunters Paladins Mages Warlocks - Wisdom (Light on Feral Druids tanking on bosses, Salv on Enhancement Shamans or Feral Druids "Not tanking" )
Salv - Rogues
Light - Warriors (10min Salv for DPS Warriors on Bosses)

Might/Salv Paladin -
Warriors Paladins Rogues Hunters - Might
Priests Druids Shamans Mages Warlocks - Salv
(10 min Might on Feral Druids/Enhancement Shamans for Bosses)
#2041SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Bellator, thanks for updating the spreadsheet. A few things I noticed:

You cannot select a gem for Hard Khorium Choker, show detail does not open a gem selection line under it.
T4 and S1-S2 are not updated for new stats. Also, Merciless helm has wrong armor value (not that it affects anything).

You should also add these under crafted items: Hard Khorium Battleplate (chest, 1728 armor, 55 sta, 61 str, 41 crit, 280 ArP, RRR with Crit +4) and Hard Khorium Battlefists (hands, 1103 armor, 45 sta, 45 str, 23 hit, 36 haste, RY with Str +3).
#2042SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Bellator, thanks for updating the spreadsheet. A few things I noticed:

You cannot select a gem for Hard Khorium Choker, show detail does not open a gem selection line under it.
T4 and S1-S2 are not updated for new stats. Also, Merciless helm has wrong armor value (not that it affects anything).

You should also add these under crafted items: Hard Khorium Battleplate (chest, 1728 armor, 55 sta, 61 str, 41 crit, 280 ArP, RRR with Crit +4) and Hard Khorium Battlefists (hands, 1103 armor, 45 sta, 45 str, 23 hit, 36 haste, RY with Str +3).
Cheers for the note on the Chocker (this is due to it being the first neck with a gem slot and the character sheet does not allow you to do thig). Will be in later version.

S1,S2,T4,Craftables, SW5/25 drops are all on the list of things to add. I'm just leaving a couple of days between updates to update in fairly big chunks, otherwise will be on version 50 by the weekend :p
#2043SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3moby3012
As far as I read, the stats of the Girdle of the Lightbearer are not changed on the PTR, so maybe they simply forgot it.
#2044SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Habaka
Originally Posted by Subject View Post
3 Paladins in a Raid is ideal. I typically tend to not bring 4 of anything besides Druids or Priests.

1 Paladins does Kings on the Raid.
1 Does Wisdom/Salv (Light on Warriors)
1 Does Might/Salv

Kings Paladin -
Raid gets kings.

Wisdom/Salv Paladin -
Priest Druids Shamans Hunters Paladins Mages Warlocks - Wisdom (Light on Feral Druids tanking on bosses, Salv on Enhancement Shamans or Feral Druids "Not tanking" )
Salv - Rogues
Light - Warriors (10min Salv for DPS Warriors on Bosses)

Might/Salv Paladin -
Warriors Paladins Rogues Hunters - Might
Priests Druids Shamans Mages Warlocks - Salv
(10 min Might on Feral Druids/Enhancement Shamans for Bosses)
This is exactly what we do in our raids and I have no problem with it, I'm the one assigning the blessings and I have taken the role as imp. might man as retri.

Dropping benediction while having Sanctified Judgement is not a problem really, JoW, 2 set bonus of T6 and the ammount of damage you usually take in Hyjal / BT is quite enough and this way our healing paladins can go 41/20/0 and save respec costs when they go PvPing, I'm going to have to respec if I go to arenas anyways, so why not grab the imp might while doing PvE and giving the other paladins some slack ( Maybe I'm too kind hearted :< )

Edit: Oh and yeah, I'm also enforcing Pally power to our paladins, as I wont take them to raids without, too much of a pain in the ass otherwise :P
#2045SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
errr double post...
#2046SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by moby3012 View Post
As far as I read, the stats of the Girdle of the Lightbearer are not changed on the PTR, so maybe they simply forgot it.
Yea I went on the PTR with a Level 1 and Linked it using WoWhead script thingy and it was the same stats, I sent in a Bug for it.


Habaka: I also assign blessings and am the Ret Raiding Paladin we have, however I run as a 5/0/56 Spec with Imp Might and do it myself as well. Being when I raided as Holy I would run with a 42/14/5 build as well. And yes Paly Power is required with us as well, makes my life a breeze.
#2047SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
What are everyone's thoughts on this trinket?


It drops off heroic Magister's Terrace. I think it could be better than DST!
#2048SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
Brooch of Deftness
...
I ran a search for this item and I saw a small conversation about it but not enough to go on. Does anyone use this item? I noticed the spreadsheet gives Weapon Expertise a very high dps per point return on Expertise and there is a very limited number of items which give Expertise rating. I am wondering if it is worth the 35 badges.

I wanted to answer on this already last week, unfortunately somethig slipped me in and I forgot to finish this posting.

I am TK/SSC/ZA raiding Alliance paladin and I am concerned about my damage output as my performance in raids is definitely observed a lot in my guild. I was raiding with a necklace that drops from the SSC trash--[Pendant of the Perilous]--and reputation Karazhan ring--[Violet Signet of the Master Assassin]--about December. I am regulary evaluating WWStats from our runs and what was striking me was amount of combined misses (miss, dodge and parry together).

I had gut feeling that this is the right place to look at by following just a simple logic. The highest damage output influencing stat is a Hit Rating as long you are no hit capped. This is especially truth for us paladins, as we tend to hit like a truck and our seals are bind with landed hit. I cannot basically afford to loose landed hits. Further I want to have highest possible chance to land Crusader Strikes to keep judgements up. Typically if water graved in Morogrim fight I would have to land my 1st Crusader Strike after return, or I loose whole judgements stack. Misses seems to be unacceptable, though I was still observing about 9% of dodges and parries together when hit capped.

With a help of Beliator's table I modeled my DPS output with swapping in by your mentioned [Brooch of Deftness] and do not laugh, [Shapeshifter's Signet]. Theoretical model shown that for this neck and ring combination the only real updates for these slots are two rings--the first one drops in Black Temple and the second in timed Zul'Aman run.

Beliator's table is great tool, but still has to be used with caution. I believe most in WWStats and results seen in practice. I bought [Brooch of Deftness] first, reasoning behind was hidden in having two neck pieces for boss fights and trash mobs. And added [Shapeshifter's Signet] later. I cannot present you with data from the last December raid with only human racial Expertise bonus, but I can provide you with data showing difference from having 10 and 15 Expertise with some overlapping boss fights and no other gear upgrade:

10 Expertise rating run
15 Expertise rating run

I am very happy with the change of gearing towards expertise I did.

Speaking about future I see some positive stuff too. I am stuck so far with [Hourglass of the Unraveller] I use on dynamic fights where I have to disengage boss and cannot fully use potential of [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. Neither of [Tsunami Talisman], [Dragonspine Trophy] or [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] is perfect in my eyes. The first adds +Hit Rating that would push me over hit cap, second provide Haste Rating and influence only my autoattack and the third one does not scale with my gear. And what I seen in the last patch 2.4 news at mmo-champion.com?

#2049SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
We don't know it's internal cooldown and proc rate, but if its 'effective AP' is 50 or greater, it is better than DST. Very welcome addition indeed. I've been long frustrated with lack of trinket drops, so this will be a handy companion to Crusade
(Edit : I'm talking about Shard of Contempt)
#2050SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
We don't know it's internal cooldown and proc rate, but if its 'effective AP' is 50 or greater, it is better than DST. Very welcome addition indeed. I've been long frustrated with lack of trinket drops, so this will be a handy companion to Crusade
(Edit : I'm talking about Shard of Contempt)
Best ret trinket is the game by far, i´m particulary happy with it since i´ll get expertise capped with it. No misses/dodges/parrys ever owns!!!
#2051SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
You can't really call Hammer of the Naaru a Retribution item, since I remember more Holy Paladins gemming it for Spell Damage and using it to farm.
Thats because those holy paladins were/are kidding themselves that a 2-hander with minimal spell damage is superior to a sword/board with spell damage on them. Having strength makes it quite obviously intended for retribution in my eyes.
#2052SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
@pvita

Breaking down your WWS based including Dodges / Parrys for the same boss for KILL shots this is what I came up with.

On Hydross.
10 Expertise - 2 Parry 7 Dodge
15 Expertise - 4 Parry 2 Dodge

On Lurker.
10 Expertise - 3 Parry 4 Dodge
15 Expertise - 3 Parry 5 Dodge

On Leo.
10 Expertise - 3 Parry
15 Expertise - 2 Parry 2 Dodge

Parry is you attacking from the front, so simply attacking from behind will mitigate those. With your minimal expertise change you are gonna get varied results like this.

However I did not compare your crit % for abilities or your group composition or consumables or anything of that nature. You can boldly see that they fluctuate and are very close still.

I do believe that Expertise and AP proc trinket will be a great substitute pending its proc chance however.
#2053SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Thats because those holy paladins were/are kidding themselves that a 2-hander with minimal spell damage is superior to a sword/board with spell damage on them. Having strength makes it quite obviously intended for retribution in my eyes.
It's not the Str that makes it for Ret, it's the weapon damage. 120 Weapon DPS is great for SoC, but not much use for SoR.


Thottbot World of Warcraft: Hammer of Righteous Might is an example of a 2h weapon that's itemized for SoR - around 50~ weapon DPS (compared to equal level weapons) is moved into +dmg where it can be used by SoR. You could slap Str on this weapon and it'd still be good for SoR.
#2054SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Quickly ran the trinket through the model. Without the proc it lies a little below draginspine and darmoon card crusade (though the later has strings attached). With a proc averageing out at 50AP (22% uptime) which is a minimum i see it at, does indeed come out the best trinket
#2055SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Also interestingly, with my gear slightly upgraded (my armory + the 3 new t6 pieces + apolyon) the [Hard Khorium Battlefists] (the BS crafted ones) come out just above S3. Just some food for thought!
#2056SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rasputin
Quickly adding in the new Blacksmithing patterns into the latest spreadsheet comes out with them as best in slot, ahead of even the almighty Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets. I did the analysis while already hitcapped, so the hit on the gloves isn't even being factored in, as far as I can see how the analysis function works, and the hit you lose moving to most Sunwell gear which seems to be almost entirely without hit makes that even more valuable. Of course, we've yet to see the Brutal Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets, so this may yet change. I'm all of a sudden excited that I haven't dropped Blacksmithing yet, and if this trend continues into WotLK I may have to re-evaluate my hazy plan to drop it completely for Inscription.

As an aside on the 5/0/56 vs 5/8/48 debate that went on briefly, the fact that all this incredible new gear almost universally lacks hit would seem to put an end to the debate come Sunwell. Precision will become incredibly valuable in allowing you to choose more of these good Sunwell items which lack hit.

Last edited by Rasputin : 02/11/08 at 1:06 PM. Reason: Precision comments
#2057SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
The Blacksmithing gloves are BoE though. The chest is the reason to still keep Blacksmithing.
#2058SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
The Blacksmithing gloves are BoE though. The chest is the reason to still keep Blacksmithing.
Sure. But if they continue to add a BoP BSing piece which is on par or best in slot with comparable raided epics as a raiding reward throughout progression, I may have to think about that as a viable path, as opposed to enchanting and inscription. Although with each profession getting new BoP items throughout the raiding game which are fully competitive with dropped gear, Blizzard seems to be trying(and succeeding, in my opinion) to make crafting professions a viable choice for raiders.
#2059SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
Originally Posted by Subject View Post
@pvita

Breaking down your WWS based including Dodges / Parrys for the same boss for KILL shots this is what I came up with.

...

Parry is you attacking from the front, so simply attacking from behind will mitigate those. With your minimal expertise change you are gonna get varied results like this.

However I did not compare your crit % for abilities or your group composition or consumables or anything of that nature. You can boldly see that they fluctuate and are very close still.

I do believe that Expertise and AP proc trinket will be a great substitute pending its proc chance however.
Group composition was standard stacked--warrior, shaman, retribution paladin and either 2 rogues or 1 rogue and 1 warrior. I use whole time same buffs, there should not be much difference.

I am aware of the fact that difference in data is minimal. It was much better to see or at least provided feeling of benefit, between 5 Expertise rating and 15 Expertise, though WWStats from December are already away.

However, in this case is better for you instead of simple comparison between runs simply extrapolate the data for each run separately. You know that without expertise I would have just a bit higher AP and crit rating and 5.6% dodge and about slightly higher amount of parries as indicated.

I disagree with your conclusion about parries. You are basically saying, that we should not consider benefit of expertise for parried attacks as they are just result of wrong positioning. I personally thing this is misleading.

First and foremost you did not pay attention to dynamic of the encounters. What is to consider?

Hydross itself is not a problem. You will hit him from behind, however there are as well some spawns after every movement. One of our spawns is killed exclusively by melee, then we move on Hydross back. It somehow happens, that it is me, who stun this spawn, lands 1st opening hit on him off-tank it. I do see parries on this mob regulary as I have to attack him from front. Expertise is definitely benefit for me here.

Lurker Bellow is as well very simple to explain. Spouting Lurker indeed turns around, where I do not change position from behind him. I am regulary forced to hit him from front during his spouts and expertise does helps me to minimize parries.

When tank establishes aggro on Leotheras, he definitely do not care from which side I happen to run back into melee range. This means I here and then do land opening hit from front before I get into right position behind Leotheras. I do not mention usage of Divine Shield to stand in melee range during last phase of whirl-winding Leotheras, when my Avenging Wrath is on the cooldown.

Further you wrongly expect, that raider is error free and you play down benefit of expertise in correcting his errors that indeed results to increase in the damage done. I would not undermine this.
#2060SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
I just completed a heroic Magister's Terrace run in which the Shard of Contempt dropped... I lost the roll sadly to the feral druid tank =[ But I asked him to do some testing for me so I could post some numbers on the internal cooldown... my guess is it's somewhere near 45-60 seconds which puts it far above DST.

I will continue running a heroic MT everyday so on multiple characters so I can hopefully get some data on it, but I am very excited about the prospect of it...

Also has anyone seen the Haste trinket? 54 Haste and a 44 AP stacking up to 10 times proc, could be another useful upgrade, but my guess is its from sunwell, so we will hopefully get some tests about that soon.
#2061SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Just looking at the new "best in slot" items, at least so far, it looks like SoB is really going to start pulling ahead of SoC in damage. With the new T6 pieces, Chest, Shoulder, Gloves, Pants, all of which are coming out on top, you've got 218 Haste Rating. Continuing on this path, it isn't completely outlandish to believe 20% Haste is going to be achievable, while still not losing out on DPS. Of course, 20% Haste for a SoB is about a 15% overall DPS increase, while it's just 10% for SoC. I'm not going to go into the whole "it's not fair" argument here, but it just looks like itemization is making the faction difference blaringly visible.
#2062SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Also has anyone seen the Haste trinket? 54 Haste and a 44 AP stacking up to 10 times proc, could be another useful upgrade, but my guess is its from sunwell, so we will hopefully get some tests about that soon.
Looks like a DW/kitty trinket to me, with a slow 2h i´m not sure we can take real advantage of the proc.

Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Just looking at the new "best in slot" items, at least so far, it looks like SoB is really going to start pulling ahead of SoC in damage. With the new T6 pieces, Chest, Shoulder, Gloves, Pants, all of which are coming out on top, you've got 218 Haste Rating. Continuing on this path, it isn't completely outlandish to believe 20% Haste is going to be achievable, while still not losing out on DPS. Of course, 20% Haste for a SoB is about a 15% overall DPS increase, while it's just 10% for SoC. I'm not going to go into the whole "it's not fair" argument here, but it just looks like itemization is making the faction difference blaringly visible.
/Agreed

I really hope they fix that on 2.4, by either buffing SoC or making SoB/SoV base spells for both factions.

Last edited by Deimosfobos : 02/11/08 at 2:26 PM.
#2063SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Also has anyone seen the Haste trinket? 54 Haste and a 44 AP stacking up to 10 times proc, could be another useful upgrade, but my guess is its from sunwell, so we will hopefully get some tests about that soon.
While I'm sure its good, I would imagine rogues/fury warriors/bm hunters would get the most out of it. We attack fairly slow compared to most DPS classes, and that seems to benefit fast attackers more as the AP stacks quicker. Still interesting to try it out on the spreadsheet though.
#2064SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feanortm
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what does "power of the light/arcane" actually do (from Shattered Sun rep trinkets) ? And does it benefit us?
#2065SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Feanortm View Post
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what does "power of the light/arcane" actually do (from Shattered Sun rep trinkets) ? And does it benefit us?
Doubt anyone has hit exalted to check it out... from 1 non heroic and 1 heroic + the attunement quests which were around 500 rep, I am sitting at 1500/6000 towards friendly, so I imagine it will take a little while for people to get up there... the heroic is amazing rep but it actually does reset like the dailies, you can't just run it over and over even just to test it

I imagine it will actually summon a small combat ally though, I can't think of many other ways that it could work, other than maybe adding some arcane / holy damage per swing.
#2066SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Merple
I'm a bit confused with Bellator's spreadsheet.

Currently my pre-raid Ret pally is using the [Libram of Zeal].

I was going to put a group together tonight for Heroic Blood Furnace to get [Libram of Avengement], but when I plug it into the spreadsheet, I see a -decrease- in DPS.

I was under the impression that Avengement was much better. Was I wrong, or is the spreadsheet messed up?
#2067SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Wearing fully epic gear, [Libram of Avengement] is better. But at low gear levels, static str/ap is better. It's based on your existing stats.
#2068SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Merple
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Wearing fully epic gear, [Libram of Avengement] is better. But at low gear levels, static str/ap is better. It's based on your existing stats.
Ah, I figured it out. I'd left all my raid buffs off. Now I see the difference.
#2069SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
I've gone ahead and done a little playing with Bellator's spreadsheet and I input all of the new 2.4 items I could find that were not already included (including the trinkets with an assumed 1 PPM, and non-plate items). Here's what I came up with as an optimal plate gear setup:
  • Crown of Anasterian (Glyph of Ferocity)
  • Pauldrons of Berserking
  • Hard Khorium Battleplate
  • Felfury Legplates
  • Hard Khorium Battlefists
  • Lightbringer Treads
  • Lightbringer Belt
  • Lightbringer Bands
  • Shadowmoon Destroyer's Cape
  • Choker of Endless Nightmares
  • Hard Khorium Band (no enchants)
  • Band of the Ranger-General (no enchants)
  • Shard of Contempt
  • Blackened Naaru Sliver
  • Libram of Divine Judgement
  • Apolyon, The Soul-render (Mongoose)
I also went with the following buff list:
  • Improved Blessing of Might
  • Blessing of Kings
  • Improved Mark of the Wild
  • Leader of the Pack
  • Battle Shout
  • Blood Frenzy
  • Hunter's Mark
  • Expose Weakness
  • Sunder Armor
  • Faerie Fire
  • Curse of Recklessness
  • Unleashed Rage
  • Improved Windfury Totem
  • Improved Strength of Earth Totem
  • Mana Spring Totem
  • Heroism
  • Misery
And with the following consumables:
  • Haste Potion on cooldown
  • Flask of Relentless Assault
  • Scroll of Strength V
  • Roasted Clefthoof
Using the following abilities:
  • Max rank Seal
  • Judgement on 9s cycle
  • Consecration R1

The two yellow sockets in the gear were outfitted with Inscribed Pyrestones, and I gave two random red sockets Shifting Tanzanite. Now here's what's shocking:
  • Seal of Command - 1917 DPS
  • Seal of Blood - 2085 DPS (168 DPS, or 8.76% more damage)
To compared that to something a bit more tangible, Windfury Totem grants 176 DPS in this gear setup. In other words, not having Seal of Blood is akin to raiding without Windfury Totem. The difference between the two factions of Paladins is getting pretty ludicrous in 2.4; I can't imagine things will remain this way much longer.
#2070SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
It looks like 2.4 will be a battle of getting as many of the new goodies as you can while remaining hit capped. While I would like to get all of the new pieces (BS crafted, new T6, and token drops), I find that I will probably keep [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] and [Dreadboots of the Legion] to stay hit capped with precision and allow myself to gem all other sockets with 10 STR. While I could technically trade a couple of these pieces if I got the new expertise trinket, my instinct tells me that it's better to reap the full benefits of expertise while being hitcapped. I need to play with the spreadsheet more whenever I get out of work.
#2071SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Theras, the major issue with that setup you have is that even if you NEVER cast consecration or exorcism, you will still go OOM inside of 3 minutes in a raid environment. While that may fly for farm content, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the majority of fights in sunwell will probably be 5 minutes at least for the first few weeks... and we do gear for progression, not farm content (at least I do...).
#2072SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Theras, the major issue with that setup you have is that even if you NEVER cast consecration or exorcism, you will still go OOM inside of 3 minutes in a raid environment. While that may fly for farm content, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the majority of fights in sunwell will probably be 5 minutes at least for the first few weeks... and we do gear for progression, not farm content (at least I do...).
Mana Regen Proc - Spells - World of Warcraft

7 minutes, 14 seconds with Consecration spam, >20 minutes without. The current spreadsheet doesn't yet support the Tier 6 set bonus from the new pieces, but I modified mine so it works correctly.
#2073SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Mana Regen Proc - Spells - World of Warcraft

7 minutes, 14 seconds with Consecration spam, >20 minutes without. The current spreadsheet doesn't yet support the Tier 6 set bonus from the new pieces, but I modified mine so it works correctly.
Thanks for reminding me will have to make sure it does.

Quick Q? When you said you input all the 2.4 items you could find. Did you use the item inputter tab or unhide the database and just ammend it? Was just curious if anyone was actually using the item input tab and if it was functioning as never really messed about with it to try and break it
#2074SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Thanks for reminding me will have to make sure it does.

Quick Q? When you said you input all the 2.4 items you could find. Did you use the item inputter tab or unhide the database and just ammend it? Was just curious if anyone was actually using the item input tab and if it was functioning as never really messed about with it to try and break it
I've been using the new input tab thing... and I have to say the most annoying part is there is no way to reset it... when I was trying to add items with 1-2 gem slots, I had no option but to add 3 and put multiple extra blue slots and just throw mp5 gems in em to not modify the dps increase... The tab is pretty useful though, I don't know enough about excel to go through the database and add stuff :S so its nice for me heh
#2075SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...yLiadrin-1.jpg

So, blood knights are now "real" paladins... Blizzard's way to share out SoB and SoV? /conspiracy
#2076SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
I've been using the new input tab thing... and I have to say the most annoying part is there is no way to reset it... when I was trying to add items with 1-2 gem slots, I had no option but to add 3 and put multiple extra blue slots and just throw mp5 gems in em to not modify the dps increase... The tab is pretty useful though, I don't know enough about excel to go through the database and add stuff :S so its nice for me heh
Will add a way to reset it. However for the time being, if you've added a 3 gem item and then want to add an item with 2 gems, just click on the 3rd gem slot cell and press delete. This will remove it
#2077SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Quick Q? When you said you input all the 2.4 items you could find. Did you use the item inputter tab or unhide the database and just ammend it? Was just curious if anyone was actually using the item input tab and if it was functioning as never really messed about with it to try and break it
I've always modified the database directly, so I haven't bothered using the new item input tab. I like having items under the correct categories anyways.
#2078SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
I've been using the new input tab thing... and I have to say the most annoying part is there is no way to reset it... when I was trying to add items with 1-2 gem slots, I had no option but to add 3 and put multiple extra blue slots and just throw mp5 gems in em to not modify the dps increase... The tab is pretty useful though, I don't know enough about excel to go through the database and add stuff :S so its nice for me heh
You can highlight all the tabs, right click and clear content. Thats how I did it when I added my 2.4 items prior to the new sheet being released.
#2079SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Ahhh, great thanks, I feel like an idiot for not trying that, but oh well xD Works great now!
#2080SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
is it normal when you run the analyse items that the gear gets socketed with all 10str gems and can't be changed back?
#2081SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feanortm
OK, so i came up with this, regarding the rep necks:

There look to be 4 necks available at exalted SSO, all with the text "Your X have a chance to call on the power of the Arcane if you're exalted with the Scryers, or the Light if you're exalted with the Aldor." X being spells or heals or melee and ranged attacks.

What does this mean?

Well, there are 4 necks (caster/healer/DPS/tank), and each one appears to have a pair of associated spells, depending on faction.

Aldor get short duration buff procs: +dmg, +heal, +AP, +dodge.
This is from the 2.4 thread on these forums.
Scryer will probably be getting something similar.
The +AP buff could be potentially valuable depending on the ammount and proc rate.
#2082SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
I wouldn't doubt that Scryers get crit (or mp5/dodge) instead of AP, given that their shoulder enchants are more focused around those stats.
#2083SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Alleyra
Apologies for changing the subject from all the exciting news 2.4 is bringing us.

My guild saw Kaz'rogal for the first time last night. Messing around, we had the guy down to 29%. Seemed like a pretty easy fight with exception to his Mark. I'm wondering, you guys out there who've run Hyjal/BT: do you make any special preparation for the fight? Do you wear any specific gear for the fight? (i.e. stacking up your Mana pool.)

I spent the fight chugging Super Mana Potions; but after Mark 3, it was getting pretty tight. WoWwiki and every other strategy suggests wearing some Shadow Resistance, which sounds pretty beneficial on paper... but as we all know: theory and practice are two different things entirely.
#2084SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Wear as much SR as you can. Of course your damage will go down, but it's better than blowing up your raid. I usually have a full arcane torrent ready to use before the boss fight. You might be able to get another arcane torrent off depending. I also bubble off the first unresisted mark. If things get really tight, you can switch to Seal of Wisdom. I have Shahraz SR gear now so it's a lot easier than it used to be.
#2085SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Alleyra View Post
Apologies for changing the subject from all the exciting news 2.4 is bringing us.

My guild saw Kaz'rogal for the first time last night. Messing around, we had the guy down to 29%. Seemed like a pretty easy fight with exception to his Mark. I'm wondering, you guys out there who've run Hyjal/BT: do you make any special preparation for the fight? Do you wear any specific gear for the fight? (i.e. stacking up your Mana pool.)

I spent the fight chugging Super Mana Potions; but after Mark 3, it was getting pretty tight. WoWwiki and every other strategy suggests wearing some Shadow Resistance, which sounds pretty beneficial on paper... but as we all know: theory and practice are two different things entirely.
Have everyone wear at least your shadow necklace... i would suggest making all your mana classes the shadow resist cape as long as they are gonna stick around till mother... that + normal 70 shdow resist buff should give you enough to get through kaz... if you have ret pallies / enhance shammies that you know are gonna stick around might wanna make them a bit extra early
#2086SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
Yeah, the fight is doable with mana pot chugging, using Seal of Wisdom, and generally being pretty useless, but having shadow resistance gear - even a couple greens to hold you over until the guild starts handing out Mother Shahraz gear - will make the fight a breeze. Don't forget to wear your [Medallion of Karabor], too.

Last edited by Theras : 02/12/08 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Grammar
#2087SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
Group Makeup with a Ret Pally

As usual, arguments about Ret Pallies in my guild forums. We're doign SSC (5/6) and starting TK tonight. I'm ret, and luckily for me I get to go on just about every raid. The question is where to put me. Most of the time I'm not getting in the melee (meaning Windfury) group. I dont know all the math behind what works better for overall raid DPS, and that is what I want to maximize. If you need to know all the classes going I can post that, but given these 2 melee group makeups, which would be better for the raid? (comments in parens are from the guy in guild forums)

Option #1
- Enh Shaman (Wind Fury, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth)
- Ret Pally (No group buff)
- DPS Warrior (Battleshout)
- Rogue (No group buff)
- Rogue (No group buff)

Option #2
- Enh Shaman (Wind Fury, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth)
- Feral Druid (Imp Leader of the Pack)
- DPS Warrior (Battleshout)
- Rogue (No group buff)
- Rogue (No group buff)

Now, remember for option #1 there will be a feral druid put somewhere else, and for option #2 I (ret pally) would be put somewhere, according to them in the "caster group".

Thanks.

If it helps my armory is The World of Warcraft Armory
#2088SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dram
Originally Posted by Schadrak View Post
Option #1
- Enh Shaman (Wind Fury, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth)
- Ret Pally (No group buff)
- DPS Warrior (Battleshout)
- Rogue (No group buff)
- Rogue (No group buff)
Imp. Sanctity Aura is a 2% damage group buff for the melee group.

Edit: To change "meele" to "melee" because I am terrible at spelling
#2089SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Paragos
Option 1 for group makeup is our normal set up. The feral druid gets moved to the tank group. If one of the rogues in the melee group does not show up, the feral druid is moved back.
#2090SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
Option 1 for group makeup is our normal set up. The feral druid gets moved to the tank group. If one of the rogues in the melee group does not show up, the feral druid is moved back.
And that seems to be the "norm", but I need something to back it up (numbers). They insist that the raid will get more DPS out of option 2. i can tell you this, without WF, I'm at least 150DPS less on our WWS parses.
#2091SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aurius
Kaz'rogal, my guild just downed him and first 2 in bt sunday, for me as a ret pally I normally have 6k mana buffed. I used a strategy of having 125ish sr, wearing 3 healing pieces, and using fel mana potions. It worked. I didnt blow us up. Having another pally judge wisdom, blessing of wisdom, and myself using seal of wisdom I stayed up on mana even if I gimped my dps a little bit.
#2092SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Wrl
Originally Posted by Schadrak View Post
As usual, arguments about Ret Pallies in my guild forums. We're doign SSC (5/6) and starting TK tonight. I'm ret, and luckily for me I get to go on just about every raid. The question is where to put me. Most of the time I'm not getting in the melee (meaning Windfury) group. I dont know all the math behind what works better for overall raid DPS, and that is what I want to maximize. If you need to know all the classes going I can post that, but given these 2 melee group makeups, which would be better for the raid? (comments in parens are from the guy in guild forums)

Option #1
- Enh Shaman (Wind Fury, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth)
- Ret Pally (No group buff)
- DPS Warrior (Battleshout)
- Rogue (No group buff)
- Rogue (No group buff)

Option #2
- Enh Shaman (Wind Fury, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth)
- Feral Druid (Imp Leader of the Pack)
- DPS Warrior (Battleshout)
- Rogue (No group buff)
- Rogue (No group buff)

Now, remember for option #1 there will be a feral druid put somewhere else, and for option #2 I (ret pally) would be put somewhere, according to them in the "caster group".

Thanks.

If it helps my armory is The World of Warcraft Armory
We pretty much run as a standard
COMBAT
COMBAT
ENHANCEMENT
ARMS (or fury depending on what he feels like, pretty much a wash with blood frenzy)
RETRIBUTION

Then we have another group that is usually
BM
BM
SURVIVAL
RESTO SHAMAN
FERAL
#2093SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Wrl View Post
We pretty much run as a standard
COMBAT
COMBAT
ENHANCEMENT
ARMS (or fury depending on what he feels like, pretty much a wash with blood frenzy)
RETRIBUTION

Then we have another group that is usually
BM
BM
SURVIVAL
RESTO SHAMAN
FERAL
Thats pretty much what we run as well... except sometimes we have 1 too many rogues and toss him in with the hunters as well xD

As for math to back you up.... its just like comparing a MS warrior with a rogue for the WF.... that alone should be enough to put you in the group.... add in the fact that you bring 2% dmg to the entire group and you have solid reasoning as to why you should be in there...
#2094SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
There's a DPS calculator in the Feral Druid thread you can use to see what happens if you take away Unleashed Rage from a feral druid, and add Grace of Air from the Hunter group. You'll see it's a pretty negligible difference compared to the 150 to over 200 DPS a Paladin would lose out on by not having Windfury (or totems at all in a caster group).
#2095SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
Do any of you guys have links to WWS reports of your runs w/the group makeup you describe above? The normal comment is that "none of the high end raiding guilds use a ret pally and if they do its not in the melee group".
#2096SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Schadrak View Post
Do any of you guys have links to WWS reports of your runs w/the group makeup you describe above? The normal comment is that "none of the high end raiding guilds use a ret pally and if they do its not in the melee group".
Sure!
Wow Web Stats for the whole night
The melee group was Rogueelf, Euber (who's MS), Nothe (me), Dahri (enhance), and Arrete (fury)

the next night:
WWS Loading...

for the nar'jentus tries I was in a caster group with 2 shadow priests, a mage, and I can't recall the 5th, to provide a frost aura (this's our first night of attempts, we downed him sunday, but I wasn't there & since I'm the one who posts WWS's there aren't any for the kill )

It's hard to compare the different encounters, but that should give you an idea what the melee buffs can do for your DPS.
#2097SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Schadrak View Post
Do any of you guys have links to WWS reports of your runs w/the group makeup you describe above? The normal comment is that "none of the high end raiding guilds use a ret pally and if they do its not in the melee group".
I do not have WWS of the specific group make ups (we usually have a different melee setup). However, that "normal comment" is fallacious as there are a decent number of high end raiding guilds that utilize a ret paladin. For a recent example you can go to mmo-champion and look at the PTR world firsts screenshots of Vis Maior. Lo and behold, they use a ret pally.
#2098SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Actually if you check top dps WWS reports on most bosses, almost all guilds in the top 20 are using a retri pally.
#2099SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
*sigh*

I am the evil bastard that is trying to keep Schad out of the melee DPS group. He mentioned he had posted here and I thought he would have posted the entirity of the discussion but I see he has left a lot of stuff out.

For the record, I pushed for Schad to be able to keep his spec despite a lot of arguing to the contrary. So this is not about Pally discrimination at all. He definitely is an asset to the raid, but we are struggling currently with trying to increase our overall raid performance DPS-wise so the conversation came up about how to maximize our DPS output with the current set of raiders we have.

I read some of the responses to his post, and two things pop out. One is that we have two feral druids raiding, so yes one of them most definitely goes in the Main Tank group. No argument there. The second is Xellos' comment about Ret Pallies in the raid. No one said not having them in the raid... we simply said place him in the caster group where his damage buff can assist them and he gets the mana regen benefits over putting a rogue or a feral druid out into a group where they get no benefit from group buffs and provide nothing in return.

The math supports Enh Shaman/Feral Druid/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue over Enh Shammy/Ret Pally/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue now at our current gear levels but obviously Schad doesn't want to beleive it. The disparity between the two will only grow, not shrink as we gear up more.

Our goal is simply to maximize the raid's DPS as a whole. I stand by my statements and math that having a druid or rogue float into a caster group so a Ret Pally can flex his damage meter e-Peen by being part of the melee DPS group is not the best answer to our guild's DPS problems.

Sorry to intrude on a Pally thread. Oh, and all math done was using the spreadsheet found in this thread to determine the DPS increase of all the group buffs on Schad at his current gear and spec.
#2100SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
we simply said place him in the caster group where his damage buff can assist them

The math supports Enh Shaman/Feral Druid/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue over Enh Shammy/Ret Pally/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue now at our current gear levels
Your casters get within 30 yards of your ret Pally? With the exception of Shadow Priests, other casters like being 36 yards away from bosses.

You math may be right on a spreadsheet, but you have done an real life test?
One parse, look at just the melee guys damage, then put in the ret pally and see how things go for the same encounter.
#2101SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
noth
shadrak - I took a quick look @ your armory -- you need to regem some pieces. +Strength gems are ALWAYS going to be worth more to you than the equivilent + Attack power gems, because of Divine Strength and BoK. Keep in mind you don't have to gem for every socket bonus. Sometimes it's best to just chuck a bunch of 8 Strength gems in there. (make sure your meta gem properties are met!!). Look into getting a red belt of battle made up! it's one of the best we can get.

Grimfrik: have you considered moving a rogue out of the melee group instead of the feral druid? With poisons, their DPS loss is minimal, especially if you can get em into a tank group or whatnot with a battle shout. As for putting him in your caster group - He's going to be very ineffective there, AND you're denying some mana regen to a caster who actually needs it.

we typically run Enh/Ret/Fury/MS/Rogue with our feral druid being one of our main tanks, he lives in the tank group. the rogues rotate out of the DPS group to make room for the warriors and myself, but typically perform nearly as well from other groups, unlike myself who, well, doesn't. Also keep in mind that Shadrak has some gearing up yet to do, and his contributions will increase greatly as that happens.

Last edited by noth : 02/12/08 at 8:16 PM. Reason: speeling
#2102SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
*sigh*

I am the evil bastard that is trying to keep Schad out of the melee DPS group. He mentioned he had posted here and I thought he would have posted the entirity of the discussion but I see he has left a lot of stuff out.

For the record, I pushed for Schad to be able to keep his spec despite a lot of arguing to the contrary. So this is not about Pally discrimination at all. He definitely is an asset to the raid, but we are struggling currently with trying to increase our overall raid performance DPS-wise so the conversation came up about how to maximize our DPS output with the current set of raiders we have.

I read some of the responses to his post, and two things pop out. One is that we have two feral druids raiding, so yes one of them most definitely goes in the Main Tank group. No argument there. The second is Xellos' comment about Ret Pallies in the raid. No one said not having them in the raid... we simply said place him in the caster group where his damage buff can assist them and he gets the mana regen benefits over putting a rogue or a feral druid out into a group where they get no benefit from group buffs and provide nothing in return.

The math supports Enh Shaman/Feral Druid/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue over Enh Shammy/Ret Pally/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue now at our current gear levels but obviously Schad doesn't want to beleive it. The disparity between the two will only grow, not shrink as we gear up more.

Our goal is simply to maximize the raid's DPS as a whole. I stand by my statements and math that having a druid or rogue float into a caster group so a Ret Pally can flex his damage meter e-Peen by being part of the melee DPS group is not the best answer to our guild's DPS problems.

Sorry to intrude on a Pally thread. Oh, and all math done was using the spreadsheet found in this thread to determine the DPS increase of all the group buffs on Schad at his current gear and spec.
I am wondering why you would put the ret pally in the caster group? For us, we don't have TOO much physical dps... we run 1-2 Hunters 2-3 Rogues, 1 Warrior, Me(Ret Pally), 1 Feral Druid and 1 Enhance shammy

So running the groups like:

Hunter
Hunter
Resto Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue

Ret Pally
Warrior
Enhance Shammy
Rogue
Rogue

This gives everyone a very large group buff other than the Resto shammy... the Rogue we throw in the hunter group is usually only 1-2% off the other rogues in dps, if that... where as if you threw a ret pally in a group without windfury... he would be 3-4% down where he could potentially be....

Windfury on a 2hander is perhaps one of the biggest buffs possible... at my gear level I lose about 223 dps from losing WF and battle shout... if I am thrown in a caster group (no more SOE or GOA) I lose 317 dps...

Not to mention the group losing 2% dmg for only 5% crit, which isnt that different... there is no way that a ret pally in a caster group is more damage than a rogue/hunter group...

The rogue would lose... WF/SOE(sometimes based on range?) and would gain 5% crit, and 3-6% dmg based on if they are both BM so it would be almost a wash for him...

What you are saying is tantamount to putting a arms warrior in a caster group and saying "eh hes just there for BF, his dps doesn't matter at all".

But, not my raid

Edit: If you need WWS parses... Zurm's comment always has his guilds WWS in it can look at him, from my knowledge they have been farming illidan for a long time so their raid should be mostly at its cap gear...
#2103SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
My comment was made in responses to Schad's "normal comment". Whatever discrepancy between what you said and what he heard is your issue. Anyways, you can place a feral druid in the hunter group along with a shaman so he can benefit from FI and GoA. The loss of LotP to the melee group may not outweigh the loss of Imp. Sanctity aura plus the loss in dps due to the paladin losing windfury. Your mileage may varying of course depending on your raid setup. A little napkin math:

Let's say that the standard melee in the melee group does 1000 damage per swing and has a 40% crit rate (typical value I see for our melees raid buffed). Let's say he gets off 100 attacks in 100 seconds for easy math.

Normal attack damage: 60*1000 = 60000
Crit attack damage: 40*2000 = 80000
Total damage: 80000+60000 = 140000
DPS: 140000/100sec = 1400 dps

Now, let's add 5% crit rate.

Normal attack damage: 55*1000 = 55000
Crit attack damage: 45*2000 = 90000
Total damage: 145000
DPS: 145000/100sec = 1450 dps

So your increase in group dps from LotP comes out to be 200 (4*50). With imp. sanc aura, you'd see an increase of 112 (5600*.02). So with a druid, you gain about 88 dps, while losing at least 150 dps with the paladin losing WF (more if your paladin is well geared). You can do the same calculation using 2800 dps and the difference comes out to 176 dps. Of course, having all your melee hitting 2800 dps is slightly out of the normal variance. The other piece of this puzzle is how much dps you lose by putting the druid with hunters and a shaman. I figure the loss of SoE and UR is compensated by FI and GoA (unless your enhc shaman twists), but this should be verified with WWS or spreadsheet. And finally, you have to compare the dps done between your druid and paladin. In my case, I outdps the druid in my melee group by a decent margin (100+ dps) the vast majority of the time.

TLDR: It all depends on your raid members and setup. Imagine that.
#2104SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Petru
Hi folks!

Second post, mostly in reply to the request for WWS's parses. The group make up we use is Fury/Combat/Hemo/Ret/Enh, consistant in each run aside from Rogues changing places. We also use a Survival Hunter for Expose Weakness. She goes in tank group with Prot Warr, Protadin, Feral Bear and usuall a Resto Shaman or Tree if the casters feel like hogging totems.

To point out, the BT WWS (3rd link) is with me swinging Cataclysm's Edge, which I got on Sundays Archimonde (2nd link). Prior to that I was using Soul Cleaver. My character is pretty new, I only hit level 70 at Christmas, so everything has come about pretty quickly.

Black Temple, Thursday 7th February
Mount Hyjal and some BT, Sunday 10th February
Black Temple (first Mother kill, 2nd attempt, wooo!)

I went splat lots on Gurtogg tonight, not too great. Was quite happy with my damage on Teron though. Archimonde, I never do amazing on due to last 10% being unable to seal/judge. Kazrogal I just have to go uber careful on mana as I always forget any SR

EDIT: PS, enh learned to twist GoA/Wf tonight, tasty

Last edited by Petru : 02/12/08 at 8:33 PM.
#2105SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
Originally Posted by noth View Post
Grimfrik: have you considered moving a rogue out of the melee group instead of the feral druid? With poisons, their DPS loss is minimal, especially if you can get em into a tank group or whatnot with a battle shout. As for putting him in your caster group - He's going to be very ineffective there, AND you're denying some mana regen to a caster who actually needs it.

we typically run Enh/Ret/Fury/MS/Rogue with our feral druid being one of our main tanks, he lives in the tank group. the rogues rotate out of the DPS group to make room for the warriors and myself, but typically perform nearly as well from other groups, unlike myself who, well, doesn't. Also keep in mind that Shadrak has some gearing up yet to do, and his contributions will increase greatly as that happens.
As far as gearing up goes, that goes for everyone. As everyone gears we go up as a group... so that really doesn't make much of a difference honestly. And from everything I have seen the disparity actually grows, not decreases, over time. What is now a 150 DPS difference in mostly T4 gear turns into a 4-500 DPS difference in T6 gear.

As to moving a rogue out instead of the feral the DPS loss is almost twice as much as Schad gains from entry into that group. The base spreadsheet modeling shows that a rogue gains 313 DPS from WF/Unleashed Rage/Strength of Earth/BS/IlotP where Schad gains 181. So that makes the least sense of all the options...

Thanks for the input though guys.
#2106SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Of course if you put him with a different group (say, hunters and the other feral druid?), and add in the poison damage he wasn't getting before, that 313 DPS shrinks considerably. The thing you're assuming that certainly hasn't been the case in my experience, is that as gear is added, folks DPS will increase at an identical rate. I know I've gone from holding onto spots 8-12 by my teeth and nails, to the top 3-5 in Hyjal. I'm not trying to talk you out of anything, I'm just pointing out that your conclusions do not match the experience that many of us are having in end-game, and that, even if you decide to go that way for now, you should keep a sharp eye on his gear and the tradeoffs.
#2107SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
As far as gearing up goes, that goes for everyone. As everyone gears we go up as a group... so that really doesn't make much of a difference honestly. And from everything I have seen the disparity actually grows, not decreases, over time. What is now a 150 DPS difference in mostly T4 gear turns into a 4-500 DPS difference in T6 gear.

As to moving a rogue out instead of the feral the DPS loss is almost twice as much as Schad gains from entry into that group. The base spreadsheet modeling shows that a rogue gains 313 DPS from WF/Unleashed Rage/Strength of Earth/BS/IlotP where Schad gains 181. So that makes the least sense of all the options...

Thanks for the input though guys.
But, did you add in the fact that he would be gaining ferocious inspiration x 1-2? and GOA??? and maybe even still keeping LOTP???

And your also not adding the fact that by swapping that rogue that ENTIRE group is gaining 2% damage, which is a lot more than what the rogue is adding to that group
#2108SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Grimfrik, from your explanation I gather you're running quite a melee heavy raid. This is very unbalanced and will pose a big problem for you once you reach some of the melee-unfriendly boss fights later on. Anyway, this is for you to deal with. About the issue discussed here - having a retri paladin in the raid and not-putting him in the melee group makes no sense imo. You'll have more raid dps replacing him with a caster in this case, who won't be gimped from being put in that group. This is not about your paladin's epeen, you're simply denying a 2-h weapon wielder WF totem, which is one of the best examples of synergy. Your calcs look a bit wrong too btw, I'm losing 300 dps from not being in the melee group and I can't imagine anything else than a green-geared paladin losing only 181. Also, did you calc the 313 dps losing rogue using poisons on his MH weapon instead?
Just out of curiosity, what does your MT group look like then? Have you considered putting one of the rogues there instead?
#2109SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
But, did you add in the fact that he would be gaining ferocious inspiration x 1-2? and GOA??? and maybe even still keeping LOTP???
With our makeup that isn't the case.. the only other enh shammy run in the MT group.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. I don't expect you guys to have the insights into our raid team to make real conclusions, hence my issue with Schad's flimsy post in the first place.

Thanks for your input though!
#2110SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
As to moving a rogue out instead of the feral the DPS loss is almost twice as much as Schad gains from entry into that group. The base spreadsheet modeling shows that a rogue gains 313 DPS from WF/Unleashed Rage/Strength of Earth/BS/IlotP where Schad gains 181. So that makes the least sense of all the options...
That is so incorrect. A ret paladin gains more from being in the melee group. Check your spreadsheets again. The standard group setup is 2xrogue,Enh,MS/Fury Warrior and Ret paladin for almost all guilds that do have a ret paladin. Among the high end guilds you talk about, Vis Maior is the only one I know of where the Ret paladin (Slayton) stays in the tank group for many fights because they have rogues with full T6 and warglaives at which point the difference isn't much. And I'm pretty sure if he happened to be horde, even that wouldn't happen.
#2111SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anedris
My usual approach (as a raid leader) when I have too many melee is to turn the tank group into a second melee group. Put a shaman in there for WF, which obviously helps with threat, you already have a warrior and a feral there usually, and for most encounters MT-survivability isn't a huge issue so we don't usually bother trying to get the tank devo aura, tree aura, or even necessarily imp.
#2112SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimsch
when theres no room in the melee grp I simply stay out of the raid. ^^
#2113SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Shard of Contempt appears to be the new top trinket, it edges out DST from that spot at least according to my spreadsheet calcs (I added it as a new item with 70 AP to account for the proc). The good news, it drops from Kael'thas on heroic Magister's Terrace, hopefully making it fairly farmable.
#2114SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Just a minor correction - it drops from Priestess Delrissa in heroic, not KT, making it even easier to get.
#2115SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
I wish you guys there a bit less rude with the Dwarf rogue here. Another point of view is always usefull. I'm actually curious about how you got your results Grimfrik. Even if there's no other en cham, you must have a group with hunters somewhere? With an healing chaman dropping GoA? The rogue would certainly benefits more for it than the retpal, or at least, would lose a lot less from being switched there.
Care to link your calcs?
#2116SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
The math supports Enh Shaman/Feral Druid/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue over Enh Shammy/Ret Pally/MS Warrior/Rogue/Rogue now at our current gear levels but obviously Schad doesn't want to beleive it. The disparity between the two will only grow, not shrink as we gear up more.
Could you post the math you did/used?

I've been keeping an eye on the melee dps sim thread here at ej and well no one has really bothered to do the math with a ret pally yet as far as I can tell in that thread

I have a gut feeling total raid dps would only be higher with the feral in the melee group rather than your ret pally if:
a) the druid was exceptionally geared and b) the ret paladin was poorly geared.
#2117SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
I wish you guys there a bit less rude with the Dwarf rogue here. Another point of view is always usefull. I'm actually curious about how you got your results Grimfrik. Even if there's no other en cham, you must have a group with hunters somewhere? With an healing chaman dropping GoA? The rogue would certainly benefits more for it than the retpal, or at least, would lose a lot less from being switched there.
Care to link your calcs?
Heh, thanks for the support but it is what I expected. Of course a bunch of Ret Pallies are going to be irritated when a rogue says one of your own isn't pulling his weight enough... I have a thick skin.

I am at work right now and all the spreadsheet stuff is at home on my laptop. When I get home I will post what I used to come up with the modeling after I adjust for the 2% Imp Sanc aura increase Schad brings to the group. I admit I left that out initially but, like I told Schad, it is not enough to change the outcome it just closes the gap slightly.
#2118SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
No one has been rude to him from what I've seen, we're just wondering why he's made that decision and more importantly - what is the math behind all this. Grimfrik, you still haven't posted what your MT group looks like and can't you find a place for the second rogue in it. And how do you justify a ret pala vs a caster in a caster group.
#2119SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mearis
Windfury is obviously a bigger damage increase for a ret paladin than a rogue. A question is that expecially if you are switching to using a ret paladin, your other melee DPS might be a lot more accomodating if they don't immediately feel he is kicking valued raiders from their group.

I want to echo the sentiment of this thread though, if you already have a solid roster of strong melee DPS, there's no real point in adding a ret paladin or any other extra melees.
#2120SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
I've been keeping an eye on the melee dps sim thread here at ej and well no one has really bothered to do the math with a ret pally yet as far as I can tell in that thread

I have a gut feeling total raid dps would only be higher with the feral in the melee group rather than your ret pally if:
a) the druid was exceptionally geared and b) the ret paladin was poorly geared.
I'm not sure if the tank group described in that thread is very common. It assumes Battle Shout, LotP, WF and SoE in the group. We usually run with a single prot warrior( no BS in tank group) and prefer to put the feral with hunters when possible, so I didn't really bother doing comparisons.

Also unlike other classes, Paladin DPS happens to depend on the faction and both factions tend to gear differently. That makes picking a standardized model to compare pretty hard.
#2121SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Habaka
Waiting in anticipation for Grimfik to return from his job, it does sound kinda weird to me atleast that changing a ret pala out of the melee group would actually increase the raidwise dps :O

Eversince we got a ret pala in our raids, one of our rogues went to the MT group or rotate with the rogues in and out of the raid and our raid DPS increased
#2122SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dyermaker
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
As far as gearing up goes, that goes for everyone. As everyone gears we go up as a group... so that really doesn't make much of a difference honestly. And from everything I have seen the disparity actually grows, not decreases, over time. What is now a 150 DPS difference in mostly T4 gear turns into a 4-500 DPS difference in T6 gear.

As to moving a rogue out instead of the feral the DPS loss is almost twice as much as Schad gains from entry into that group. The base spreadsheet modeling shows that a rogue gains 313 DPS from WF/Unleashed Rage/Strength of Earth/BS/IlotP where Schad gains 181. So that makes the least sense of all the options...

Thanks for the input though guys.
Grim, I am wondering your modeling is flawed. It seems as if you are calculating the individual gains from various group placement. Instead, you might want to change the formula a bit.Might I suggest you calculate the DPS of the paladin inside the DPS group and subtract the DPS of that paladin in any other group. This will provide you with the difference between WF group and not. Next, calculate the same for a rogue. Remember to include a GoA totem instead if you have an agility group. Include poisons, which would have been missing in the WF group. Rogues should have a much easier time recouping the loss of WF than any other melee because of their abilities that are unused otherwise.

However, I would also make the case that the overall raid benefit does not always place the Retribution Paladin in the melee group. When we use a Paladin tank, specifically in Hyjal, I place myself in the tank group. My individual DPS drops like a rock, but the added threat and DPS from the Protection Paladin more than makes up the difference. When you can start AoE earlier, and with less risk of aggro swaps, you can really bump up the DPS of a raid considerably.
#2123SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
@Dyermaker: Really? The strong point of the palatank seemed to me that he had no trouble at all with doing great and quick aggro (well, on undead at least). Is the threat gain worth the dps loss? I know we're talking about a personnal dps against raid dps situation but still, I didn't realised that, when talking about a prot pally, threat could be such an issue.
#2124SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
Not sure if it was mentioned before, but Vindication definitely adds a charge for Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

And it may have been a coincidence, but I noticed a lot more JOW procs on Teron Gorefiend with 1/3 Vindication than without it. I'll post hard numbers next week.
#2125SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dyermaker
@ Meuble

There aren't specifically problems with holding aggro. What moving myself to the Paladin tank group does is allow for even more efficiency. Paladin damage is happening from the very first second. If your paladin tank is stacking return damage, you're talking Retribution Aura, Blessing of Sanctuary, Fury deck... that's all holy damage. Take a look at the damage your Paladin tank is doing when your raid using AoE. When I was filling the role of paladin tank, I would typically see myself in the top 10 DPS during the waves of Hyjal. Now that I am a full time Retrtibution paladin and we have a tanking paladin, we can see that Paladin tank in the top 5, sometimes higher depending on the individual waves. Watching your mages just explode with all the DPS they can, almost without regard to Omen at all, really does boost your raid DPS.

That said, this does pose other challenges. Firstly, mages cannot ignore Omen forever. They will try, they will pay the price. Secondly, Abominations hurt, sharing aggro during these pulls must be done. It is something that requires all of the tanks to learn together. However, once they learn to work together, these things are not an issue.
#2126SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sorry
That fits my observations. 1 point in Vindication is in my raidspec for sure.
#2127SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
Here is the math I used to arrive at the conclusions I made...

First let's look at your spreadsheet's tabulations for melee group buffs since so we can lay that to rest. I admit part of the confusion was the way I quickly threw out the numbers in my earlier post. So hopefully this will clarify.

Plugging in all of Schad's gear, specs and buffs I came up with his base (assuming all the standard boss debuffs.. i.e. - Sunder, Hunters Mark, etc...). Then by stripping and re-adding the melee group's buff in question I came up with the change to his DPS when he is included in said group. Here are the numbers:

Battle Shout = +79 DPS
Unleashed Rage = +61 DPS
Imp Strength of Earth = +54 DPS (I apologize I didn't use the improved version in my original cals)
Imp Windfury = +90 DPS (I apologize I didn't use the improved version in my original calcs but all of you saying that WF alone should be a 150ish increase, I have no clue how you are coming to that conclusiuon...)

That nets Schad a total personal DPS increase of 284. Now, when you remove the buff he would recieve in the ranged DPS group (GOA = -35 DPS, Inspiring Presence = -1 DPS, Trueshot Aura = -26 DPS) you get 222 DPS. So yes, I was off when I said 181 due to the lack of improved totem effects.

With that out of the way let's look at the bigger picture. And speaking of the bigger picture, everytime any of you talk about the effects of WF or the ability of a rogue to recoup from the loss of WF you show your lack of understanding as the big picture... no offense. The melee group has many more buffs than simply WF. If that was all that was being discussed I would agree right off the bat and say that poison and GOA come close to making up for no WF. Unfortunately losing WF, BS, Unleashed Rage, Imp Strength of Earth, and ILotP can't be made up by instant poison. Anyway let's get back on track here....

MT Group = Prot warrior, Prot Pally, Feral Druid, Enh Shaman, and a rotating slot depending on the fight (for warlock Imp buff, Ret Pally assistance for the Prot Pally's aggro, a Hunter for Nature resist, etc...)

Melee Group = Enh Shaman, MS Warrior, Feral Druid, Rogue, Rogue

Now herein lies our problem as a guild... we are a casual guild who does not have a strict raiding team. So the standard hardcore raiding guild answer of "Just don't give the lowest performer a spot" doesn't really work, otherwise Schad would be spec'd holy and we would be done with the conversation to be honest. So what we are trying to do is come up with the best overall solution for what might not be an optimal class makeup in our raid.

So the melee DPS group is the group in question here.

So here is the total increase to the groups DPS per buff/class as the group stands now without Schad (Note - I have no included the numbers for how th buff affects the person providing it as that beneift would move with them regardless of what group they are in):

Windfury: Rogues - +92 DPS, MS Warrior - +160 DPS, Feral Druid - 0 DPS
Unleased Rage: Rogues - +70 DPS, MS Warrior - +87 DPS, Feral Druid - +56 DPS
Imp Str of Earth: Rogues - +31 DPS, MS Warrior - +61 DPS, Feral Druid - +48 DPS
Battleshout: Rogues - +108 DPS, MS Warrior - +99 DPS, Shammy - +93 DPS, Feral Druid - +85 DPS
Imp Leader of the Pack: Rogues - +53 DPS, MS Warrior - +76 DPS, Shammy - +64 DPS

Swapping out the feral druid for Schad adds +222 DPS to Schad, +26 DPS to rogues, +24 to the MS warrior, +21 DPS to the Shaman. So we have a total increase of 319 DPS. Now we remove the feral druid's buffs from the group (-246 DPS) as well as the buffs the druid recieves from the group (-189 DPS) and come up with a decrease of 435 DPS.

Then you have to factor in the following... Schad in the ranged group gets him Trueshot Aura, GOA and unlimited mana as well as providing a 2% damage increase to the other three DPSers in that group (hunter, warlock, mage) and the druid in the ranged group nets him GOA and Trueshot Aura and provides the hunter with LotP... (I really don't feel like doing the rest of the math so I am willing to concede it is a wash even though I am pretty sure if I did the whole thing the 2% increase damage Schad would bring to that group would be much more of a raid benefit than giving a single hunter LotP). Not to mention the immense burden that is lifted off the healers when the melee DPSers are constantly getting healed by LoTP, but that is hard to quantify in numbers.

So that was the initial argument on the subject. Does a ret pally or a feral druid in the melee DPS offer more raid DPS. The answer is yes because losing 435 DPS to gain 319 DPS makes no sense.

I will spend a little time modeling the other suggestion which was leave the feral druid in the group and pull a rogue out but that gap is going to be even higher.

Ultimately I think that in our particular raid makeup/situation Schad needs to spend half the time in the MT group (where he would get WF, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth and LotP) for when our Pally is tanking and the rest of the time in one of our ranged DPS groups assisting their DPS output and being able to go all out and not worrying about mana consumption.
#2128SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Embher
This is the prot pally.

I know this is very minor point in this thread, but here goes.

When I tank, I only prefer Schad, my ret pally, in my group for Sancity aura's holy dmg inrease, when it's an aggro intensive fight like VR and Leo.

The rest of the bosses that I tank, I really don't need any aggro boost from ret pally.
#2129SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Imp Windfury = +90 DPS (I apologize I didn't use the improved version in my original calcs but all of you saying that WF alone should be a 150ish increase, I have no clue how you are coming to that conclusiuon...)
Windfury: Rogues - +92 DPS, MS Warrior - +160 DPS, Feral Druid - 0 DPS

There's something very wrong with your calcs if a warrior get 160 dps and a paladin only 90 :P
#2130SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
I think some of the estimations of WF's contribution to ret pally damage were off the mark (including my own) since they based off observations of decently geared retadins. After I looked at Schad's gear, I could see how WF doesn't give him as much of a dps boost. Also, I'm rather curious to what spreadsheets/methods you used to calculate dps boosts due to buffs for the other melee classes. Also I did not see any calculations for the loss of the druid's dps due to removal from the melee group (what group are you moving him to?). Finally, most of the healing from LotP is overheal much like JoL. Sure, there are times where it can be useful, but it's not a huge buff.

Anyways, I think some of the responses were a little overzealous and perhaps the posters felt some personal insult to retribution paladins. While I don't fall in this category, I would like to see more fleshing out of your explanation.
#2131SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
There's something very wrong with your calcs if a warrior get 160 dps and a paladin only 90 :P
The calcs come straight from the spreadsheets. If there is a problem with the spreadsheets themsleves that is out of my league to fix.

It really isn't hard for me to fill in talent specs, gear and buffs look at the DPS number then unclick the Windfury buff and see the difference.

*shrug*
#2132SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
@Dyermaker: Thanks, I had the big "more threat = more dps" picture in mind already :P What I was curious about, was if, with the threat a palatank's already pulling out on his, 10% more threat would be 10% dps. I'm not sure if the dps could actually catch up with the threat generated. It looks like overkill to me. But maybe I'm dead wrong and some dps classes could use that extra threat.
#2133SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Embher
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
@Dyermaker: Thanks, I had the big "more threat = more dps" picture in mind already :P What I was curious about, was if, with the threat a palatank's already pulling out on his, 10% more threat would be 10% dps. I'm not sure if the dps could actually catch up with the threat generated. It looks like overkill to me. But maybe I'm dead wrong and some dps classes could use that extra threat.
As I said, I only prefer ret pally in my group out of all the bosses in TK and SSC- in VR fight with his thread reducing kickbacks and Leo for fast pick up. Otherwise my threat gain is better than average for a tank without ret pally's sanc aura like 900-1400 tps average.
#2134SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Ultimately I think that in our particular raid makeup/situation Schad needs to spend half the time in the MT group (where he would get WF, Unleashed Rage, Strength of Earth and LotP) for when our Pally is tanking and the rest of the time in one of our ranged DPS groups assisting their DPS output and being able to go all out and not worrying about mana consumption.
See, I understand why you don't want him in the melee group (although I stand by my statement that you should revisit that after you gear his rear up a bit, and get him out of that T4 :P ). What I don't understand is why don't you leave him in the tank group with a resto-windfury then, at least? Mana, while it is an issue, isn't enough of one to take up space in a caster group w/ VE.

Well, either way, good luck with your raiding, and thanks for showing us how you came to your conclusions.
#2135SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
I see a lot of posts regarding group makeup in this thread, and there is something I want to point out (and I am curious to see if the rest of the ret pally community backs me up on this).

Our primary role in a raid environment as a ret pally is to provide extra buffs that would not be available (or would gimp the spec of a healer) otherwise. The idea is that the dps lost from replacing a pure dps class like a warlock, hunter, or rogue (which typically do more dps) would be offset by the overall raid dps increase. As such, if you put a ret pally in a non-ideal group, his dps goes down. This has the potential to lower raid dps. In almost all cases, it is better to sub out even your best, most amazing dps rogue for a ret pally in the main dps group simply because the rogue gets more out of other groups (GOA, can still use poisons, etc). In the pages somewhere around the late 30's of this thread there was a bit of discussion about it.

Take my guild for example. In the WWS link in my sig, you can see I'm hardly ever top 3, and mostly sit around 5-8th on the dps meters. My guild is pretty much fully endgame at this point. So yea, on an ideal Teron fight I pull 1800ish dps and the rogue in my group might pull 2200+, and our best hunter pulled almost 2800 dps. I can never compete with that. But from what we've seen, having me in the group providing the extra mana with JOW, the extra 3% crit, and the 2% party damage can increase Raid DPS by as much as 1.5k.

Of course, raid makeup is important. There is simply no room for a ret paladin if your guild brings more than 2 rogues. Ret paladins REPLACE rogues, not anything else. Why? Because if you replace anything else in melee dps, you are going to lose buffs to others. Ret paladins function best in a group with 1 rogue, 1 feral druid, 1 fury warrior, and 1 enhancement shaman.
#2136SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
See, now when I input Shadrach's gear I get a loss of 347 DPS when removed from the melee group (no totems, no Unleashed Rage, no battle shout, no LotP). Going to a GoA/SoE group with two BM Hunters and putting on a Sharpening Stone grants 129 DPS. Net loss to Shadrach - 218 DPS.

Now let's say we remove a Rogue from the group. Let's say that Rogue is you. So moving from the melee DPS group you lose Windfury, Unleashed Rage, LotP, and Sanctity Aura. That's a loss of 375 DPS. Moving to the group with two BM Hunters and you put up Instant Poison, you gain 158 DPS. Net DPS loss to you - 217 DPS.

However, Shadrach is giving the melee DPS group Improved Sanctity aura for an increased 2% damage. You don't have any group synergies, so he pulls ahead by an indeterminate (and irrelevent) amount. Therefore, it is more beneficial to move yourself out of the melee DPS group than it is to move Shadrach out of the melee DPS group.

All numbers were generated using Bellator's Retribution spreadsheet and Aldriana's Rogue spreadsheet.
#2137SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
Wow.

We have now entered Bizarro-logic world.

Your math is tremendously flawed Theras ...

***edited - Not worth it...***

That being said I have wasted enough of my time doing DPS modeling to prove something I already knew the answer to. At our raids gear level Schad is not a good fit for our melee group, but we will revisit it again when everyone is in full T5 and see what looks reasonable then.

Thanks for your time everyone.
#2138SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kasi
Maybe Schad should find a raid group where the raid leader isn't biased around giving himself the most dps? Believe me Theras is right on his math. He's been around here a long time in both the prot and ret pally threads doing a lot of theorycrafting. He knows what he is talking about. Right now it looks like you are in a situation where you have better gear than your ret pally. That is the only reason why this discussion is even close right now. When the gear evens out, the ret pally will definitely benefit the group more than another rogue.
#2139SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Pudgeball
Not just that, but why not put/leave him in the MT group? It seems next to silly that you have two enhancement shammies dropping windfury, and you're having a hard time putting the Ret pally somewhere. Move the Prot Paladin out of that group for the majority of the time, etc. It really depends on the encounter and so forth, but it just boggles me that it's really an issue with the classes you've stated are available.

Most of the fights you're doing, the MT/Prot Pally/Feral druid aren't in dire danger of dying and really don't need imp as often as you're probably giving it to them. And if they do, move the Enhance sham out of that group into the group with the hunters and have him totem twist.

Seems almost more of a group makeup issue since you do have two shaman dropping windfury, and on top of that two enhance shammies.
#2140SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Not sure if it was mentioned before, but Vindication definitely adds a charge for Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

And it may have been a coincidence, but I noticed a lot more JOW procs on Teron Gorefiend with 1/3 Vindication than without it. I'll post hard numbers next week.
I posted those observations (Many others have as well).


I also notice more JoW procs with having Vindication as well. A few people have posted WWS parses backing that up.


Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
Wow.

We have now entered Bizarro-logic world.

Your math is tremendously flawed Theras ...
Why even come to this boards if your methodology to get your raid numbers is incorrect and you don't want to get help?
#2141SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I posted those observations (Many others have as well).
I also notice more JoW procs with having Vindication as well. A few people have posted WWS parses backing that up.
man, that may be the thing that pushes me over into re-speccing, now that we've got s'more competent palis and we're done with vashj. If only I didn't have 24g to my name!!
#2142SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jaegan
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Just to illustrate (this is done with the spreadsheet, in my current hit capped T6 ret gear, no consecration/exorcism in rotation):
Thank you for the charts, they are very helpful illustrations. Unfortunately I am colorblind, and four of the lines look identical. If somebody could number the lines and the key I would very much appreciate it.
#2143SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Jaegan View Post
Thank you for the charts, they are very helpful illustrations. Unfortunately I am colorblind, and four of the lines look identical. If somebody could number the lines and the key I would very much appreciate it.
I'm not sure how folks create attachments so these are hosted on my site, but this should hopefully clear things up a bit



on the 2nd graph, the numbers next to eachother indicate 2 lines that are virtually on top of each other.
#2144SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
Originally Posted by Grimfrik View Post
Wow.

We have now entered Bizarro-logic world.

Your math is tremendously flawed Theras ...

***edited - Not worth it...***

That being said I have wasted enough of my time doing DPS modeling to prove something I already knew the answer to. At our raids gear level Schad is not a good fit for our melee group, but we will revisit it again when everyone is in full T5 and see what looks reasonable then.

Thanks for your time everyone.
All I did was punch in the two of your equipment sets, and copy and paste the DPS output under three different raid buff scenarios (no group, melee group, group of Hunters). I came to the conclusion that everybody but you came to, which is that even an undergeared Retribution Paladin would be better placed in the melee DPS group than a Rogue. I'd really appreciate if you would point out why this "Bizarro-logic world" methodology is so tremendously flawed. Do you know of a better way of DPS modeling than we've got? If you do, please share.

Edit: I've uploaded the precise configurations I'm using for the two DPS spreadsheets. The only modifications I've made are 1) added the correct value for Improved Battle Shout to Bellator's Sheet 2) doubled the value of Ferocious Inspiration to account for two Hunters being in the group and 3) added a Sharpening Stone to Grace of Air totem.

Compare the following situations:
  • Ret Paladin with no totems, no unleashed rage, no battle shout, and no LotP.
  • Ret Paladin with Improved Windfury totem, Improved Strength of Earth totem, unleashed rage, battle shout, and LotP.
  • Ret Paladin with Grace of Air totem, Strength of Earth totem, and Ferocious Inspiration.

  • Combat Fists Rogue with no totems, no unleashed rage, no battle shout, no LotP, and no Sanctity Aura.
  • Combat Fists Rogue with Improved Windfury totem, Improved Strength of Earth totem, unleashed rage, battle shout, LotP, and Sanctity Aura.
  • Combat Fists Rogue with Grace of Air totem, Instant Poison on the main hand, Strength of Earth totem, and Ferocious Inspiration.
You'll get the numbers that I cited. In hindsight I guess I shouldn't have given the Rogue Sanctity Aura - which would skew numbers further in favor putting the Paladin in the group - but go ahead and do it anyhow.
Attached Files
File Type: zip paladinvsrogue.zip (865.2 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by Theras : 02/13/08 at 10:52 PM.
#2145SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Grimfrik
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
All I did was punch in the two of your equipment sets, and copy and paste the DPS output under three different raid buff scenarios (no group, melee group, group of Hunters). I came to the conclusion that everybody but you came to, which is that even an undergeared Retribution Paladin would be better placed in the melee DPS group than a Rogue. I'd really appreciate if you would point out why this "Bizarro-logic world" methodology is so tremendously flawed. Do you know of a better way of DPS modeling than we've got? If you do, please share.
Sure... for one learning how to spreadsheet because your numbers are very wrong. (*edit* I see you added your spreadsheets, I will take a look at them later)

Plus a lot of other stuff. Like conveniently forgetting the net increase to the ranged group from Sanc aura becuase it doesn't support your stance, giving me sanc aura buff when that couldn't be the case, the fact that other pallies in this thread posted they followed my math and agreed, etc...

But I am not arguing with you guys in your house anymore, this will be my last post. We put Schad in the group makeup instead of rogues tonight, just like you wanted. I dropped a couple hundred DPS and he is 10th on the meters. Gogo Ret DPS!!!!

Last edited by Grimfrik : 02/13/08 at 11:03 PM.
#2146SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kasi
You are a guy barely in T5 content. And you are arguing with people who have completed all the raid content this game has to offer. As well you are basically providing unsupported opinions and not backing up your arguments at all.

Btw the reason he ignored sanctity aura is because ranged classes generally take advantage of that. There are plenty of boss fights where standing closer than 30 yards to the boss is pretty stupid.

Edit: And who the hell cares if the guy is only 10th in dps. It depends on many things. Type of fight, luck, etc. Dps synergy between groups isn't to make a group of superstars. It is to make the overall highest raid dps. Nothing else matters.

Last edited by Kasi : 02/13/08 at 11:29 PM.
#2147SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Grimfrik
I showed my math from start to finish. No one else has provided any complete modeling to show anything other than my conclusion...

End of story. Enjoy your thread, soryy to have even bothered to rationally discuss this with you guys.

*waves*

Last edited by Grimfrik : 02/13/08 at 11:33 PM.
#2148SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kasi
You posted numbers which had no basis in fact. Just because you post a buff gives someone 90 dps and someone else 160 doesn't mean it is true.
#2149SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimfrik
Just because you are being such an insufferable prick, I just took the version of the spreadsheet Theras posted and did nothing but clicked on the Imp WF buff and lo and behold Schad's DPS went from 1004 to 1094.

That, plus every other number I posted came straight from the various DPS spreadsheets available on this forum modeled to match the exact toons taking up those raid spots. So of course when they show something you don't like, now the equations are wrong right?

Whatever, simple math ftw!

Okay, *now* I am leaving you pallies to your revisionist math.
#2150SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nhul
I really do not understand why you guys are giving Grimfrik such a difficult time. You are not in his raid, I have yet to see a WWS, and while these spreadsheets are awesome for displaying potential they do not reflect 100% ingame experience as player skill and latency and so on begin to make an impact. Looking at the armory of the ret pally in question he didnt even have epic gems in all of his gear, his leg enchant wasnt optimal, and so on.

I would like to see a WWS of the run where he got 10th and you lost the DPS you normally have Grimfrik if you have one available and have not left the thread...

EDIT: The spread sheet has me at 1500 DPS in my gear, however I have yet to reach that in a raid for example.
#2151SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I got a Torch tonight.

Nhul is right that the spreadsheets do show perfect rotations and DPS, but unless someone is terribly undergeared or is shit terrible at watching their cooldowns the differences aren't that much. We would need to see a WWS. That being said even by mathematics it seems very unlikely from any experience I've had that a rogue would get more out of windfury than someone using a 2-handed weapon.
#2152SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Grimfik
Swapping out the feral druid for Schad adds +222 DPS to Schad, +26 DPS to rogues, +24 to the MS warrior, +21 DPS to the Shaman. So we have a total increase of 319 DPS. Now we remove the feral druid's buffs from the group (-246 DPS) as well as the buffs the druid recieves from the group (-189 DPS) and come up with a decrease of 435 DPS.
And then we add the dps increase for the group that just received a feral druid... tying off loose ends in formulas is a good thing to do I hear.

As the ppl in question have 'left' this discussion, I'll approach those who are possibly in the same predicament. Give your retadin a chance. Understand that melee dps is a newish thing to most paladins and their gear might not be up to scratch. A retadin will always benefit the most from an enhancement shaman due to the pure synergy of talents (+10% str) and gear usage (sloooow 2h weapons and lots of AP). Also, you will be very surprised to see how well paladin dps increases with new gear.. kara gear -> T5 is a huge leap and going to T6 is an extremely high gap as well.

Bear in mind that dps meters often hide the obvious if not looked at properly. A retadin will be low on a TK run... Alar is sitting on your hands for 5mins almost... Solarian is full of AOE goodness for casters to blow the rest of dps away and solarian is a threat capped fight where paladins have no threat reducing ability like invis.. vanish.. FD..

In response to Ret + Prot Paladin... there is no such thing as too much threat.. only not enough dps. This is as simple as "If you produce more threat.. your dps can start dps earlier and can push more with cooldowns/trinks". I know several dps (rogues, mages, locks, etc) who can always be on the heels tank if they want to, giving these ppl more leeway will simply allow more dps. Try a prot warr + prot pally + ret + enh shaman for a time and see how much that increases your raid overall dps.
#2153SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grimsch
looks like im a realy bad retadin, looked through all of zurns wws, and when it comes to teron he seems to be always above 1.7k dps Im barley able to reach 1.6k dps, only when im really lucky

edit: gz toaster !
#2154SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TheCyborg
I believe theres an error in bellators spreadsheet.
When i select a weapon with sockets (Hammer of Naaru in my case, which is also mispelled) the gem bonus goes to the wrong stat.
For example, if i toss in a +8str gem, the +8 bonus goes into AP. If i put a +8hit gem, the bonus goes into Crit.
Infact, it seems like it just goes to the next cell. I fixed this in my spreadsheet, but it gets kinda tedius to do each time a new one is released.

Also, i mentioned a couple of pages back that (as far as i know) in foreign versions of Office 2007, the macro buttons doesn't work. When you click, for example the "Show Details" button you get the following error message:
Run-time error: '1004': Method 'Range' of object '_Global' failed.
Pressing the debug button shows me this line:
Range(Names("MyGems")).EntireRow.Hidden = True

Replacing it with:
Range("MyGems").EntireRow.Hidden = True
fixes this error and the spreadsheet buttons works fine. I dont know if this fix applies to other versions of Office.

Once again, thanks for a nice spreadsheet
#2155SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bellator
Hey Grimfrik,

Maybe a i missed it, but which source did you use to get the +/- data for the different dps classes rogue/warrior/druid. The reason i ask is that there are lots of underlying assumptions that are used in the different model which if not standardised could make cross comparison of data invalid.

As an example the paladin dps sheet i maintain assumes boss base armor value of 7700 (the highest boss armor value in BT/MH). If the other models dont use this but for example use the lowest boss armor value in BT/MH or base their mitigation data on something else then you could see swings of upto 40% mitigation between different sources.

The differences in the sheets jumped out at me based on the + figures you quoted for leader of the pack. LotP's benefit on a party member is based primarily on two factors. The party members base dps with 0 crit and the party member's current crit rate. Whilst a paladin will have less base dps they will also tend to have a lower crit rate when compared with the other members especially rogues. The benefit i'm seeing for LotP on paladins in my model compared to the numbers you posted seems significantly lower. Which leads me to belive that the paladin dps model is being a little harser on dps than the other models.

Secondly, when calculating the +/- of different buffs on different classes. Did you do these all individually. Again the reason being that all these buffs we are talking do have interactive effects. Individually Windfury and Battleshout could give a 50dps gain each whilst combined you get a 115dps increase.

I'd be a bit cautious of any conclusions drawn if both these factors werent taken into consideration.

Regards,

Last edited by bellator : 02/14/08 at 4:54 AM.
#2156SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
I think one of the issues that hasn't been directly addressed is that Schad might not be optimizing his own performance. As has been previously stated though, we'd need a WWS to really see what's going on.
#2157SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
I came to roughly the same conclusion... only 1600~ AP unbuffed.. no seal of blood (not much we can do about that atm).. AP gems?! No weapon enchant.

How many paladins are in that raid anyway? 2, 3, 4? Having salv, kings, might AND wisdom definitely makes things a lot easier.
#2158SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
I think I stumbled across a couple minor bugs with the newest spreadsheet.

The "New Crystalforge Shoulderplates" still have 35 spell damage when I'm pretty sure it should be 0, giving them an artificially high dps.

Also, it seems like all the New crystalforge pieces are not activating the 2-piece set bonus.
#2159SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Someone god a Shard of Contempt in my guild and ran a test of it, fastest proc he got was 45 seconds.... so we can assume its a 45 second CD... that puts it at around 102 AP static for something like the spreadsheet + 44 Expertise, making it EASILY one of the best trinkets in the game...
#2160SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gormal
The new trinkets are all ridiculously good for PvP, which tells me that they could be nerfed before being released on live servers. Dodge and parry become much greater factor when you're beating on another melee class, and slap on the additional AP bonus... wow.

Last edited by Gormal : 02/14/08 at 10:31 AM.
#2161SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Grats Toast, I got a [Cataclysm's Edge] this week off our first Archimonde kill (24 pulls to get the encoutner down ) and man does that make a difference over [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]. Can't wait to get my grubby little Ret fingers all over a [Shard of Contempt] and an [Item 'apolyon, the soul-render' not found!]
#2162SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
I think one of the issues that hasn't been directly addressed is that Schad might not be optimizing his own performance. As has been previously stated though, we'd need a WWS to really see what's going on.
this was my thought exactly, i think we all got a little defensive because past experience has taught us that most players are biased against retribution. But one thing we aren't considering is Not all ret pallys can perform as well as the guys that have been doing it for years. Schad Should be working to improve his situation both in rotation used and in gearing/gemming. We should be helping schad EARN his spot rather than accosting the Rogue. (who has been WAY more open minded than many Rogue RLs i have met.) This board is about Constructive discussion on the theorycraft of Paladin DPS. We have a paladin who has come to us and Asked us to help him improve, this should be the primary purpose of the criticism provided.

That being said, I agree that we would need a WWS, it would help those who are trying to help, have a better understanding of where the raid is at, and where to improve.
#2163SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
Originally Posted by Aiko View Post
this was my thought exactly, i think we all got a little defensive because past experience has taught us that most players are biased against retribution. But one thing we aren't considering is Not all ret pallys can perform as well as the guys that have been doing it for years. Schad Should be working to improve his situation both in rotation used and in gearing/gemming. We should be helping schad EARN his spot rather than accosting the Rogue. (who has been WAY more open minded than many Rogue RLs i have met.) This board is about Constructive discussion on the theorycraft of Paladin DPS. We have a paladin who has come to us and Asked us to help him improve, this should be the primary purpose of the criticism provided.

That being said, I agree that we would need a WWS, it would help those who are trying to help, have a better understanding of where the raid is at, and where to improve.
I appreciate the PM's and advice and am working on it. I got s3 helm last night, as well as my Lionheart Executioner. Up until a week ago i was dirt poor (never more than 100g), so I grinded out a bunch of stuff and now have 1.4k gold so can afford to gem properly. But also, this was never (or shouldn't have been) a me vs. a rogue or whatever thing. In most of the stuff I've read here, I concluded that for the most part (not all the time), that IF there is a ret pally in the raid, the best place for them (and the raid) is in the melee group with WF. A 'general' statemennt with most things being equal. Obviously not for all fights (I'm much better suited to the tank group with the prot pally for VR for instance), and not all raid makeups. But the replies I always got from some in the guild were basically the opposite viewpoint. Thats all I was trying to resolve - given equally geared/skilled raid members, where is the best place for a ret pally in the group makeups. I don't care about personal meter position. But when after every raid the meters get posted and I have to hear about my crappy DPS when I was stuck in an off group with no totems or anything, its annoying. So then when I say that I didn't have WF, i get called a "whiny bitch" or something, so its really lose-lose. I've been top 5 on fights (Fathom Lord the other day for example or Void Reaver) and I've been 10/11/12.

Any specific WWS reports (or specific fights) that would be most helpful to look at? I'll see what we have, or be sure to create them over the next week or two or raiding. We are just recently 5/6 ssc and just VR in TK (tried Al'ar a few times the other day but it was near the end of the night and ppl had to log).
#2164SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Meuble
That being said even by mathematics it seems very unlikely from any experience I've had that a rogue would get more out of windfury than someone using a 2-handed weapon.
Then again, it was Warrior against Retpal, not Rogue! Well, now with the "you're in T5 so your maths are flawed" posts, I have kind of an hard time to see things through. Thanks Bellator for leads in your post, it might explain the difference.


Edit: That's.... quite a strange WWS. Synastar - WWS
To say the very least :o

Last edited by Meuble : 02/14/08 at 11:51 AM.
#2165SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bosul
Wow Web Stats

That's our latest VR death from the other night.

I am one of the Enhance Shamans from Cessation that Schad usually is in group with.
#2166SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
...


See, this is the exact point I'm not so sure of:

Was Blizzard intending to give us threat reduction, yet due to some extraordinarily incomprehensible reason decided it's best to not reveal it/patch it in until the very last second of PTR 2.3?

or

Did the overwhelming, crushing mass of forum posts on the Blizzard forums complaining about threat reduction when it wasn't included in the first bit cause someone at Blizzard HQ to go "hold the phone, the shit has hit the fan, we have to do something" and mobilize some changes?


...
I believe they're playing it safe.


For 2.3:
"Okay, we're going to boost Ret paladin DPS a bit so that raids will see more of a benefit of having 1, but let's not over-do it, or we might make them too desirable"

<insert widespread paladin protest on lack of threat reduction>

"Okay, judging by community feedback, they won't be happy with 2.3 if it doesn't have threat reduction. One more buff for this patch"


I see the same strategy going on with the Spell damage -> Str thing. They're making small incremental changes (S3 change in 2.3, CS change in 2.3.3, small changes on 2.4 PTR), and ignore the negative side effects because the community generally doesn't care. On the upside, this might mean they have more time to redesign thoroughly.
#2167SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Grimsch View Post
looks like im a realy bad retadin, looked through all of zurns wws, and when it comes to teron he seems to be always above 1.7k dps Im barley able to reach 1.6k dps, only when im really lucky

edit: gz toaster !
I'm a blood elf. Seal of Blood is more DPS than Seal of Command, so you shouldn't feel bad at all.
#2168SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Renaud
I just wanted to check over my DPS. I am currently using Worldbreaker (I hate you Zul'Jin). Here is my Armory... http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lrogg&n=Renaud (I'll click off buffs then log out to try to get rid of all the raid buffage on armory for easier comparisons.)

The SSC Morogrim WWS's are before I got my T3 Blacksmithing Chest (I was using the ZA ArmorPen chest).

WWS Loading...
WWS Loading...

And VR from last night (No WF. They take our WF and give the Enhance shaman to the Tank group, so we don't kill ourselves I guess) 1024 DPS (But I spammed Concecrate Max Rank, which I typically do not do, obviously)

WWS Loading...


Any recommendations? I have few gear upgrades avail at our current level, we are skill working on Vashj and KT (Just started on them in the past couple of weeks, and only 1 or 2 nights per week). All items (Pre-Vashj/KT) are easily attained.

Please point out anything that can be done to increase my DPS significantly (or even slightly). I am running Gruuls for our guild on offnights, trying to get a few of us DST's (I couldn't point on it back then because I was effin Holy). Zul'Jin refuses to drop my Trinket or Sword as well. Anything else?
#2169SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Bosul View Post
Wow Web Stats

That's our latest VR death from the other night.

I am one of the Enhance Shamans from Cessation that Schad usually is in group with.
I'm looking through this WWS and I see Schad as healing during the fight. It looks like he healed himself for over 30k during the course of the VR death.

Some of that can be attributed to JoL, but the average heal is >500, so I'm assuming he was healing himself with Holy Light. I only see one healer getting gibbed, so was there some reason he was healing mid-fight? Unless there is a huge issue, you should never be healing in a raid (emergency LoH maybe, but thats a different issue). It wastes mana, resets your swing timer, and in all honesty does almost nothing. If it was a threat-cap issue that changes things, but I can't tell from the WWS.

Other than that, he's clearly not pushing his cooldowns closely enough. In an 8 minute fight you can get an ideal 80 Crusader Strikes and 60 Judgement spells. Schad only had 50 Crusader Strikes and 34 Judgements. In addition, he lost nearly 56 autoattacks for some reason or another. I am assuming this is a result of the heals he was throwing out. If you watch your cooldowns more closely (make sure CS is always on CD) your DPS will increase quite a lot.

Again though, VR isn't a terribly wonderful fight to use because of the threat issues.

I'll peruse the report more later to see if there is anything else I can offer, but for now I must get to work.

EDIT: this is all coming from the VR death report, I'm ignoring everything else.
#2170SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I'm looking through this WWS and I see Schad as healing during the fight. It looks like he healed himself for over 30k during the course of the VR death.I'll peruse the report more later to see if there is anything else I can offer, but for now I must get to work.

EDIT: this is all coming from the VR death report, I'm ignoring everything else.
Work? What's that :-)

But you're right, there were a few times I was dangerously low and backed off to heal myself. Figured better to do that than to watch the fight from the ground.

Here's another WWS WWS Loading... where I think I did pretty well on the Fathom Lord death.
#2171SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I'm a blood elf. Seal of Blood is more DPS than Seal of Command, so you shouldn't feel bad at all.
Not to mention you have nearly every buff possible for Teron. Imp Expose Armor (over Sunder), CoR, Faerie Fire, Enhancement Shaman twisting GoA, Armrs warrior, Imp Battle Shout (Solarian trinket?), Feral druid, 1-3x Drums, Expose Weakness hunter, etc. Not to mention a 2:15 kill, which essentially makes Bloodlust worth 4.5x as much as it would on a 10 minute fight, and probably 1.5 or 2x as powerful as Grimsch's.

Just a comment on the Ret pally group buffs situation, from an outsiders perspective..
-I'll agree with Zurm, Ret Pallies replace rogues. Fitting in a ret pally without dropping a rogue is generally going to be difficult
-Ret pallies, like Arms warriors, require Windfury. Plain and simple, WF is required.

Generally our raids are either 1 rogue (myself) + Zurm (and warrior / enhance / feral). When our other rogue is able to make the raid, we'll either drop the Feral for him, or make 2 physical dps groups - 1 rogue in each. The only other viable alternative I can think of is putting the Ret pally in a group with the MT (warrior), Arms warrior, and a shaman of some sort.
#2172SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valjean
I would love it if some of you more experienced Ret paladins can help me help our raiding ret paladin improve his DPS.

The World of Warcraft Armory

He probably did some BG's before logging. I know he has the T6-looking helm off of Illidari Council, the neck from Supremus, and the socketed boots off RoS. So that's his PvP gear in armory atm. I'm not sure what trinkets he uses in PvE.

Here are some WWS logs over a couple of BT's.

Frump - WWS - Our last Illidari Council kill.
Wow Web Stats - RoS p2
Frump - WWS - RoS p3
Frump - WWS - Bloodoil
Frump - WWS - Gorefiend
Frump - WWS - Shade of Akama
Frump - WWS - Najentus

He's almost always in a group with 2 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 1 resto shaman for WF (We have 0 raiding enh shamans).

He's a smart player, and a good leader, but we just can't seem to find a way to get his DPS to be competitive, and we're getting to a point where there are concerns that he's becoming a liability as ret. But ret is what he wants to do, and I'd like to try and see if there's something we can do to help him out.
#2173SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Valjean View Post
I would love it if some of you more experienced Ret paladins can help me help our raiding ret paladin improve his DPS.

The World of Warcraft Armory

He probably did some BG's before logging. I know he has the T6-looking helm off of Illidari Council, the neck from Supremus, and the socketed boots off RoS. So that's his PvP gear in armory atm. I'm not sure what trinkets he uses in PvE.

Here are some WWS logs over a couple of BT's.

Frump - WWS - Our last Illidari Council kill.
Wow Web Stats - RoS p2
Frump - WWS - RoS p3
Frump - WWS - Bloodoil
Frump - WWS - Gorefiend
Frump - WWS - Shade of Akama
Frump - WWS - Najentus

He's almost always in a group with 2 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 1 resto shaman for WF (We have 0 raiding enh shamans).

He's a smart player, and a good leader, but we just can't seem to find a way to get his DPS to be competitive, and we're getting to a point where there are concerns that he's becoming a liability as ret. But ret is what he wants to do, and I'd like to try and see if there's something we can do to help him out.
Let's take a look at the Teron Gorefiend parse:
  1. Crusader Strike should be every 6 seconds, though slight delays of up to a second are normal due to latency. He's hitting it every 7.7 seconds. Room for improvement.

  2. Judgement of Command should be every 9 seconds, with the same caveats as above. It's happening every 10.5 seconds, which is not actually that bad since in fights with the undead you ought to prioritize Exorcism over Judgement, too.

  3. His Seal of Command uptime is poor. There are a few points in the log where he'll use Judgement of Command, there will be a melee swing, then he'll reapply his Seal. That's an enormous amount of damage lost. Have him make a macro like this:

    #show Judgement
    /cast Judgement
    /cast Seal of Command

    Use that whenever you feel like using Judgement and it will automatically reapply your Seal, with zero downtime or latency between the cast and the reapplication. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that you should never use the macro when Crusader Strike has 1.5 seconds or less left on its cooldown; it would be better to Judge after in that case.

  4. Where's Judgement of Wisdom? If that were active he could spam Consecration the entire fight. That's thousands of DPS lost. Get one of the other Paladins to put it up for him.

  5. Never, ever use Hammer of Wrath. Its damage pales in comparison to a melee swing, and it resets your swing timer. Bad news all around.

Here's an example of our Teron Gorefiend last week:

Wow Web Stats

I don't claim to be perfect, but this should give you a good idea of where somebody in our level of gear can be performing. For example, my Crusader Strike are every 6.7 seconds, Judges are every 11 seconds (which isn't super great), I spam Consecration and Exorcism when on cooldown an when they won't interfere with Crusader Strike, I have Judgement of Wisdom up (look at those mana returns!), and I don't use Hammer of Wrath. This wasn't one of my better weeks, either, but I still pulled out 1488 DPS.
#2174SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
Hello fellow Mug'tholian!

I've taken a look at Frump's gear from time to time and it looks pretty good. his white hits just seem abnormally low looking at wws. On Teron for example, my average white hit was 1600 a couple weeks ago, his is 1100. Are all armor Debuffs up? Do you have an idea of what his buffed ap is at? i hover around 3000 ap when all is said and done, battleshout, strength of earth, full trinket stack.

Also notice he has a full 10% miss. how......? maybe expect ~5% from dodge but 10%?! either really unlucky or he's getting parried too because i can only assume he's hit capped with illidari shatterer and dreadboots making up more that half the required hit needed already. PM Sereen in game some time and we can chat as well.

-Sereen
#2175SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
Couple of things I had in mind:
His Seal of Command uptime is poor. There are a few points in the log where he'll use Judgement of Command, there will be a melee swing, then he'll reapply his Seal. That's an enormous amount of damage lost. Have him make a macro like this:

#show Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command
Considering it's all about SoC uptime, we can agree that such a macro for SoB would mean no dps gain, right? (I'll try it someday, but I'm short on free time these days).

5. Never, ever use Hammer of Wrath. Its damage pales in comparison to a melee swing, and it resets your swing timer. Bad news all around.
I might be wrong, but I disagree here. If you use a swing timer (like arms warriors do it for Slam) the swing timer reset wouldn't be an issue (then again, it's not always that easy to do).
#2176SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
I might be wrong, but I disagree here. If you use a swing timer (like arms warriors do it for Slam) the swing timer reset wouldn't be an issue (then again, it's not always that easy to do).
If you go back 15-20 pages we ran some numbers on HoW. Even in an ideal situation (4 piece T6 with all the debuffs and such) HoW is almost never a DPS gain. You would have to hit HoW within .4 seconds of your autoswing going off to break even, and with the typical client and sever lag its close to impossible. If you have extra mana at the end of a fight start spamming Rank VI Consecration. Unless HoW is made instant it remains one of the most useless spells we have.

EDIT: Here's the stuff.
#2177SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Couple of things I had in mind:

Considering it's all about SoC uptime, we can agree that such a macro for SoB would mean no dps gain, right? (I'll try it someday, but I'm short on free time these days).


I might be wrong, but I disagree here. If you use a swing timer (like arms warriors do it for Slam) the swing timer reset wouldn't be an issue (then again, it's not always that easy to do).
I don't understand how that would work? I mean, you swing, you start casting HoJ, the next swing doesn't start until your hammer flies, right? It seems like there's no way that you couldn't lose DPS there...

as for the macro re: SoB, I would think it would be MORE valuable since SoB procs every weapon swing, and thus having it down is even more terrible, since you're losing guaranteed damage rather than the chance of damage.
#2178SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
Hello fellow Mug'tholian!

I've taken a look at Frump's gear from time to time and it looks pretty good. his white hits just seem abnormally low looking at wws. On Teron for example, my average white hit was 1600 a couple weeks ago, his is 1100. Are all armor Debuffs up? Do you have an idea of what his buffed ap is at? i hover around 3000 ap when all is said and done, battleshout, strength of earth, full trinket stack.

Also notice he has a full 10% miss. how......? maybe expect ~5% from dodge but 10%?! either really unlucky or he's getting parried too because i can only assume he's hit capped with illidari shatterer and dreadboots making up more that half the required hit needed already. PM Sereen in game some time and we can chat as well.

-Sereen
Don't sign your post. We can all look to the left to see who you are, and forum admins are notably against it.

Just some tips for browsing WWS reports - click anywhere on the Melee line, but not on the word "Melee". The bar should expand to give you further detail about that players Melee attacks. For instance, you'll notice the 1100 average is for "Landed" attacks. WWS calculates "landed" as hits + glancing. His average HIT was 1317. Still far off from 1600, but closer. Further, that 10% miss breaks down to 3 parries and 6 dodges. Quite unlucky with the parries to say the least - perhaps his guild has everyone behind the boss, not just the melee?

Check Teron's debuffs to see what the raid had: Teron Gorefiend - WWS
Sunder was up the whole time, as was Faerie Fire. CoR was not used, Damndirtyape used CoD instead. CoD was ~165 dps for the warlock, cost 4 GCD's. CoR would have been ~200 dps increase for just the rogues.. not to mention the 4 hunters, dps warrior, feral and of course.. Frump. It would of cost 2 fewer GCD's as well, increasing Shadowbolt dmg.

As for trinkets, he was using Hourglass.. and only had 2 procs in a 4:23 kill.
#2179SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Meuble
Yeah well, that's kindda what I meant noth: It's nearly impossible to not have SoB up when you do your white it. Unless you are sleeping, but meh. What I wanted to say was: Since you have no gain from SoB being up a lot of time (not ppm based), if it's up for your white hits only, you have no dps loss at all. Wich wouldn't be true for SoC.
Not sure if I'm so clear, I'll try to run a couple of tests, maybe I can show what I mean if I bring up some WWS


Edit: Oh, ok, I was almost sure that the whole thing about this macro was that having a better uptime with SoC meant more procs. You understood perfectly what I was trying to say, thanks for the answer =)

Last edited by Meuble : 02/14/08 at 6:12 PM.
#2180SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Yeah well, that's kindda what I meant noth: It's nearly impossible to not have SoB up when you do your white it. Unless you are sleeping, but meh. What I wanted to say was: Since you have no gain from SoB being up a lot of time (not ppm based), if it's up for your white hits only, you have no dps loss at all. Wich wouldn't be true for SoC.
Not sure if I'm so clear, I'll try to run a couple of tests, maybe I can show what I mean if I bring up some WWS
I think we may be mis-communicating, so I'm gonna try'n be clear as to what I'm thinking, and then you can smack me upside the head when I sound like a retard.

The deal with the SoC macro is that uptime is important, but only when the actual weapon swing occurs. The same is true of SoB. Having SoC up when the weapon timer is ticking doesn't increase SoC's proc-rate any, which I think is where you're getting confused. Identically to SoB, it only matters that it's up when the weapon swings. That said, it's EASIEST to do so by re-sealing immediately, since your swing timer and your GCD timers don't sync up nicely.

It is possible for your seal to not be up when the weapon swings, when your judgement and your swing coincide, if you're not judging with a macro. That's what we're trying to prevent, not an overall seal uptime, but the situation where the seal downtime overlaps with a weapon swing. Talking about 100% uptime seems to be an easy way to think about it, though.
#2181SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Valjean View Post
(We have 0 raiding enh shamans).
Since you came here for advice, I'm going to give you some not-specifically-ret advice. It is poor raid makup to NOT bring hybrids. By themselves, they do get beaten by pure dps. However, when groups are properly made, DPS rises exponentially. If you really want to be prepared for Sunwell, and even clear BT/Hyjal with more efficiency, you have to maximize your RAID DPS.

What does this mean? Priority #1 is to get an enhancement shaman. Resto shaman are acceptable in a pinch, or for 1-2 lone melee who can't make it into the main melee group. However, there is no replacement for Unleashed Rage, Imp SoE, or Imp WF. Yes, it matters. A lot.

Other important classes to bring are a ret paladin (extra blessings, judgements stay up, and 2% party damage... sweet deal?), BLOOD FRENZY warrior (fury is ok... if you have 2 dps warriors), and feral druids for melee groups. Caster groups should be assembled in similar ways, with moonkin (sadly, we don't have one atm), shadow priests, and elemental shaman.

Also remember that throwing a resto shaman into a melee group means they can't get buffs from caster groups or mana from spriests. As the number of viable specs increases, the importance of fitting your raid like a puzzle becomes more important. If you are incredibly short on hybrids, you need to recruit or have people respec. The time of the close-minded "do it the old way" raid leaders has come and gone.
#2182SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valjean
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Since you came here for advice, I'm going to give you some not-specifically-ret advice. It is poor raid makup to NOT bring hybrids. By themselves, they do get beaten by pure dps. However, when groups are properly made, DPS rises exponentially. If you really want to be prepared for Sunwell, and even clear BT/Hyjal with more efficiency, you have to maximize your RAID DPS.
.....
I appreciate the advice, and that's why I came to the forums.

I'd love to have a raiding enh shaman, but our only enh shaman quit the game recently. So we're actively trying to find another one. I do agree that a resto shaman doesn't have the proper synergy in a melee group. We just don't have many raiding shamans, period.

There are definitely more things we can do to maximize our DPS. This is just one of a long list we need to chow down in order to make a stronger raid group.
#2183SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by noth View Post
I don't understand how that would work? I mean, you swing, you start casting HoJ, the next swing doesn't start until your hammer flies, right? It seems like there's no way that you couldn't lose DPS there...
You still lose .5 seconds of swing time if you do it perfectly. For warriors, it's well worth it with some builds, as spending .5 seconds casting Slam is vastly higher DPS than spending .5 seconds autoattacking. HoW isn't worth it due to being both lower damage and at a much higher cost -- if you count SoB/SoC as autoattack damage, a Paladin's autoattack dps is significantly higher than a warrior's.
#2184SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valjean
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Just some tips for browsing WWS reports - click anywhere on the Melee line, but not on the word "Melee". The bar should expand to give you further detail about that players Melee attacks. For instance, you'll notice the 1100 average is for "Landed" attacks. WWS calculates "landed" as hits + glancing. His average HIT was 1317. Still far off from 1600, but closer. Further, that 10% miss breaks down to 3 parries and 6 dodges. Quite unlucky with the parries to say the least - perhaps his guild has everyone behind the boss, not just the melee?

As for trinkets, he was using Hourglass.. and only had 2 procs in a 4:23 kill.
No, just melee is behind the boss for us.

I guess he was just unlucky that night, low trinket procs and high parries. It's good to know that some of the issues is jus the RNG then, and not player-related.
#2185SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Valjean View Post
He's a smart player, and a good leader, but we just can't seem to find a way to get his DPS to be competitive, and we're getting to a point where there are concerns that he's becoming a liability as ret. But ret is what he wants to do, and I'd like to try and see if there's something we can do to help him out.
Also, I know I said this in a longer post like 2 pages ago... the real question is:

"Does the dps we lose replacing a ret pally with a 'pure' DPSer get overshadowed by the extra blessing, judgement retention, and 2% party damage?"
I used to be a healer. Pre-bc I played a holy priest, and for most of my raiding time in BC content I was a holy pally. I know, and Latito will certainly vouch for this, that the transition wasn't 100% smooth. Playing a DPS is ENTIRELY different than healing. I died a lot and was slow to respond to target swtiches, loosing dps. Now I've been ret for around 3 months, and my place in the raid is well established. If he JUST went ret, give him time.
#2186SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valjean
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Let's take a look at the Teron Gorefiend parse:

....
I don't claim to be perfect, but this should give you a good idea of where somebody in our level of gear can be performing. For example, my Crusader Strike are every 6.7 seconds, Judges are every 11 seconds (which isn't super great), I spam Consecration and Exorcism when on cooldown an when they won't interfere with Crusader Strike, I have Judgement of Wisdom up (look at those mana returns!), and I don't use Hammer of Wrath. This wasn't one of my better weeks, either, but I still pulled out 1488 DPS.
So based on your initial impression then, it sounds like a significant factor in Frump's moderate DPS is bad management of timers, and the lack of JoW. Gear-wise, rotation-wise, he seems to be doing fine?
#2187SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Don't sign your post. We can all look to the left to see who you are, and forum admins are notably against it.

Just some tips for browsing WWS reports - click anywhere on the Melee line, but not on the word "Melee". The bar should expand to give you further detail about that players Melee attacks.
thanks for the heads up on the sig.

i guess i can't really explain why his white dmg is low. his gear is at a similar level to a lot of people here but the numbers aren't. 8.5s crusader strike is BAD. that's a loss of over 150 dps right there from a 6.5s CS. i forgot that we raid we a 1100 agi expose weakness hunter which is a fairly significant melee dps increase so that explains some of the difference in white dmg i'm seeing from myself.

he could try timing on-use trinkets and insane strength pots with weapon procs and heroism. that can really push your dps. just by babysitting my CD's a little better i was able to gain almost 200 dps on teron with zero gear change and identical group setup. (also had better rolls on crits).
#2188SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Valjean View Post
So based on your initial impression then, it sounds like a significant factor in Frump's moderate DPS is bad management of timers, and the lack of JoW. Gear-wise, rotation-wise, he seems to be doing fine?
As far as I can tell, yeah. He just needs to tighten up his rotation, add in some Consecration, and dump the Hammer of Wrath. Ideally he should always be ending a fight bone dry on mana.
#2189SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
[Girdle of the Lightbearer] seems to have been changed in the latest patch.



Not as good as the new tier 6, but it actually looks usable now.
#2190SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
[Girdle of the Lightbearer] seems to have been changed in the latest patch.



Not as good as the new tier 6, but it actually looks usable now.
awesome I was pretty close with my assumption of 48 str when it came out to be 49. Going to be using this over Boneweave girdle in 2.4 as i've decided to not remain at 142 hit and bump it down to 95.
#2191SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
Compared to [Valestalker Girdle], assuming Blessing of Kings and Divine Strength:

+8.8stam
-1.19% crit
+42.6AP
+3.3int
-0.25% haste

Worth the tradeoff? You definitely won't have any competition on it, though.

It seems like a direct dps sidegrade from [Belt of Seething Fury] losing 6 haste and some stam for 1 str and 21int.

I think I'll actually take a loot at picking this belt up the next time it drops. I can probably snag it for minimum dkp before the patch goes live :P
#2192SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
It's still not worth using; an epic gemmed [Red Belt of Battle] will stomp the new Girdle of the Lightbearer under all circumstances.
#2193SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Yea boneweave still obliterates it...bah o wells. Over hit cap ftw!
#2194SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
Red belt of battle isn't as good as seething fury or the new belt for a BE, thats what they are talking about Theras. An alliance Paladin would be out of their mind to use haste with how much it offers SoC.
#2195SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
I'm excited that they're continuing to change the Ret-targeted gear. I'm even MORE excited that dropping my Red Belt would leave me at 95 hit rating, and that the Girdle of the Lightbearer has been languishing in my bank for a few motnhs, against the hope of the day they changed it. I am however, less excited to try and fit another blue and yellow gem somewhere else into my gear. Has anyone put any thought into an organic regemming of gear to maintain the meta activation during upgrades? I'm thinking hard about places to put these blues and yellows and it's quite the annoyance to realize that you can't take an upgrade because you would have to resocket a spinel or something similar.
#2196SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
Red belt of battle isn't as good as seething fury or the new belt for a BE, thats what they are talking about Theras. An alliance Paladin would be out of their mind to use haste with how much it offers SoC.
It's still frustrating having to revisit lower Tier content for best in slot plate.

Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
I'm excited that they're continuing to change the Ret-targeted gear. I'm even MORE excited that dropping my Red Belt would leave me at 95 hit rating, and that the Girdle of the Lightbearer has been languishing in my bank for a few motnhs, against the hope of the day they changed it. I am however, less excited to try and fit another blue and yellow gem somewhere else into my gear. Has anyone put any thought into an organic regemming of gear to maintain the meta activation during upgrades? I'm thinking hard about places to put these blues and yellows and it's quite the annoyance to realize that you can't take an upgrade because you would have to resocket a spinel or something similar.
I made a decision when I started getting Tier 6 gear that I would (almost) never disobey socket color rules, because of how few blue slots there were in the gear. It gives you a very slightly lower DPS than gemming Spinels to an extreme - less so now that Shifting Tanzanite can be gemmed as much as you want - but you'll almost never be short of yellow sockets, and if for some reason you dip below two blue sockets on your entire suit, you can pop a Shifting Tanzanite into a red socket in a new item (or an old item if you absolutely have to).

It's looking like this will be important as we transition into Sunwell, with the gear having an overwhelming number of red sockets.
#2197SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
@Bellator: Following your last posting about mitigation and some idea exchange on paladin forums, I was checking WoWWiki.com formulas and your spreadsheet. WoWWiki.com formula sounds:

Mitigation = Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * MobLevel)

Formula used in spreadsheet v30 I still use is following:

Mitigation = Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)

It seems to me you compute Mitigation from armor for a mob level 70, instead of 73. Boss should use value 11960.

This bring me on an idea if we can have in spreadsheet a switch for opponent level--70, 71, 72 and Boss--and adjust formulas to it. It would allow to optimize trash gear as well then.
#2198SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by pvita View Post
@Bellator: Following your last posting about mitigation and some idea exchange on paladin forums, I was checking WoWWiki.com formulas and your spreadsheet. WoWWiki.com formula sounds:

Mitigation = Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * MobLevel)

Formula used in spreadsheet v30 I still use is following:

Mitigation = Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)

It seems to me you compute Mitigation from armor for a mob level 70, instead of 73. Boss should use value 11960.

This bring me on an idea if we can have in spreadsheet a switch for opponent level--70, 71, 72 and Boss--and adjust formulas to it. It would allow to optimize trash gear as well then.
"The 11960 and 10557.5 numbers in the denominator are often confused. The constant is based on the attackers level not the target's level. Use 10557.5 for your attacks (outgoing) and 11960 for damage received."

From: Formulas:Damage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
#2199SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
(Edit : Beaten to it by Theras)
The mob level in the formula

Mitigation = Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * MobLevel)

is attacker level, not target level. Thus the value in the spreadsheet is correct.
#2200SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
My bad. I noticed the Armor page only without that added explanation from Damage Reduction page. Thank you, Theras.

Request for mob level switch stays.
#2201SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
Alright, I've come back again with some questions.

I've started using a Castsequence macro, on a 9 sec Judgement Rotation, coupled with my CS'ing.

I still have no access to Windfury, BS or anything melee oriented, except for a Feral Druid. (yay for 5% crit) And I'm starting to wonder what is good DPS when you have no Melee group?

As an alliance Paladin, I'm usually in 25-mans (SSC/TK) at 600DPS sustained for the night, hovering nearer to 700 on some fights (Usually on VR I am at 750), and nearer to 500 on the not so melee friendly fights. But by the end of the Night, I usually end up at around 600'ish for total sustained.

Is that good? Is that bad? Other than the obvious melee group lacking, what could I improve on gear-wise? I am praying for Legs off Solarian, Trinket off Leo, and Mace off Karethrash down the line. (well, when we get our firsts on Karithrass and Solarian.)

And are there any other useful macros I should add?

Currently I run with a simple

/castsequence reset = 9 Judgement, Seal of Command, and I insert the rank, depending on wether or not I have a Shadow Priest.

Any Advice would be great, I know I have a spot in my 25-man (They love my +3% Crit +2% Damage, JoW/L CS'ing.) But I want to contribute more in the manner of DPS'ing.
#2202SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
I am in a similar situation as you. I can’t seem to convince the powers that be to put into a dps group for most of the raid. I am either in the tank group to help the protection Paladin gain more agro or I am put into the left over group.

I usually end the night also around ~650 dps. I can’t answer if that is good or not. I don’t think it is bad for not being put into the melee dps group.

Here is my WWS logs for our last VR fight.

WWS Logs

Here is the macro I use.
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

I don’t know if this macro will help you or not because I am still trying to find ways to improve my dps as well, but it seems to work.
#2203SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
Here is the macro I use.
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike
How's that macro work for you? Do you just spam it and it maintains a full, tight cycle?
#2204SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
i tried out making a macro to tighten up judging last night

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

i found it worked 70% of the time, the rest it seemed to judge but not recast my seal.. i'm not sure why. i don't usually play about with macros too much.

i'm normally fine getting my judges off and resealing before the swing timer hits but i'm usually careful, with lag etc and try avoid doing so if the swing timer is past 50%. the idea of this macro was to try get them out later in my swing if that was when the cooldown falls..

any thoughts?
#2205SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Merple
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
i tried out making a macro to tighten up judging last night

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

i found it worked 70% of the time, the rest it seemed to judge but not recast my seal.. i'm not sure why. i don't usually play about with macros too much.

i'm normally fine getting my judges off and resealing before the swing timer hits but i'm usually careful, with lag etc and try avoid doing so if the swing timer is past 50%. the idea of this macro was to try get them out later in my swing if that was when the cooldown falls..

any thoughts?
This I can help with. Remember that Judgement does NOT invoke your global cooldown, but seals do. This means if you use CS, and then immediately judge, you're seal won't cast because you're in the GCD, but you'll judge appropriately.

This is why the castsequence macro intrigues me, because the macro won't move on until you cast SoB, meaning your seal always goes up.

Last edited by Merple : 02/15/08 at 8:49 AM. Reason: CrAzY CaPiTaLs
#2206SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Onacouch
I was examining the graphic posted by Avitius located here:
http://elitistjerks.com/633109-post1982.html

Now I will admit it's been a long time since I've taken a math course, but I was a little unsure of the armor penn. line. As far as I can tell armor doesn't scale as a linear function. If you were to graph the function y=x^0.5 it would provide a good image for how armor scales (at least in my head, I could be completely wrong about this). For every 1% damage reduction you gain in armor you need even more armor to gain an additional 1% scaling exponentially.

But if you're trying trying to reduce a target's armor to zero wouldn't the line look more like the positive side of y=x^2? As you get closer to 0 armor you're reducing a mob's damage reduction exponentially, no? On his graph it appears to be a straight line.

Is there something I'm missing here?
#2207SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
ahaaa, of course!!

hmm, is there any clever macro jiggery pokery that will let you have it's macro cooldown and activation tied to the 2nd spell in the cast (SoB) rather than the first (Judgement)? that way i can switch my brain off a little bit and let the macro do the work for me!
#2208SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
ahaaa, of course!!

hmm, is there any clever macro jiggery pokery that will let you have it's macro cooldown and activation tied to the 2nd spell in the cast (SoB) rather than the first (Judgement)? that way i can switch my brain off a little bit and let the macro do the work for me!
The cooldown will always be linked to the first spell in the macro, so you can't prevent yourself from judging until the seal comes back short of simply showing restraint.

You could make the tooltip (and resulting cooldown swirl) show your Seal cooldown instead of your Judgement using

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood
but if you did this, you'd never really know when your judgement is up.


That said, the castsequence macro that was posted below

Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
Here is the macro I use.
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike
will ensure that your seal will ALWAYS go up again after, but it's ridged, and if you want to switch buff-seals (JotC -> JoW for instance), you have to wait til your castsequence gets to judgement, then activate your buff seal, and then continue with the castsequence. It does let you shut your brain off, however.
#2209SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
blarg... hrm.. what i really need is it to show the judgement cooldown, but for it to also force display the GCD when i hit another spell even though judgement doesn't require it... wonder if that is possible or not.. well, i'll ask the boffins in the forums if they have any ideas.

i don't like the idea of the cast sequence, especially meshing CS in it. with different Cooldowns on abilities i think it could fark things up for me a bit..
#2210SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3m0wglie
Number crunching pre-raid gear

Hi guys,

I'm gearing up a (SoB) retadin alt for ZA. My guild is a guild of reasonably experienced raiders (including a fair few Naxx-pre-TBC players) who for time reasons can't commit to a regular 25-man schedule. Because our raid time/week is very limited I hope to skip Kara entirely. Because we're a group of real-life friends rather than a raid guild, we can't really recruit. We've got a high-DPS (for t4 anyway - frontloading DPS was > 3 healers for us in Kara) 10-man raid with a hard-hitting trinity of Shadowpriest, Affliction, Destruction (+2 healers rounding out the "caster" group). Healer/Caster mana is our bottleneck in ZA.

I'm here for a bit of advice, (and also to introduce myself since I enjoy theorycrafting in general).

1) Regarding the worth of Retribution paladins in 10-man
There's been a lot of discussion that I've seen regarding retribution paladins in 25-man raids. Common wisdom is that the extra blessing, the judgements, JotC and Sanc Aura in a Rogue/Rogue/Ret/Enh/Feral group increase raid DPS.

However, we're wanting to do some experimentation with a Ret Paladin in our melee group (setup would be Prot warrior, Feral Druid, Combat Rogue, Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin) since we usually end up with either a spare caster or our holy paladin in there.

Would you expect the synergy of Feral/Combat/Enhancement/Ret (plus the synergy of JotC with Imp SB, and the extra JoW uptime) to justify the inclusion of a Ret Paladin over a "pure" DPSer? (We would be replacing either an Arcane Mage, or a Moonkin, but we also have the option of a 2nd rogue, a hunter, or an arms warrior)

2) And here's the meaty bit
The reason I'm looking at Ret is that compared to the other options it seems very easy to gear up a retadin to ~t5 level without actually stepping into a raid instance. Plugging the following into the spreadsheet:-

4/5 Season 3 Arena
Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate
Season 3 Honour Boots + Bracers
Red Belt of Battle
Cloak of Darkness
DMC: Crusade
Libram of Zeal
MG Bonegrinder (or Lionheart Executioner in 2.4 if arena season 3 weapons still have the rating req.)
(filling up other slots with random tat that's easily availible as soon as you hit 70)

- gets me a theoretical peak personal DPS in the 1100-1300 range depending on buffs, I'd expect that to be around 700-900 in a real encounter - which would put me on par with my raid before taking into account 100% JoW uptime or JotC.

However, I've had anecdotal evidence that PvP geared Ret paladins are being scorned in raids. This doesn't seem to parse with the results from the spreadsheet. The high iLevel of the season 3 items, combined with their PvE-friendly (compared to, say, DPS Caster or Healer season 3 sets) point allocation seems to make it ideal gear for starting out as a retadin - in almost every case it seems to be a DPS upgrade over any other pre-raid gear including the ZA badge gear. Does this match the common wisdom? I've noticed that the season 3 gloves are considered the best gloves in the game. Is the rest of the arena set looked down upon?

Thanks in advance.
#2211SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gormal
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
blarg... hrm.. what i really need is it to show the judgement cooldown, but for it to also force display the GCD when i hit another spell even though judgement doesn't require it... wonder if that is possible or not.. well, i'll ask the boffins in the forums if they have any ideas.

i don't like the idea of the cast sequence, especially meshing CS in it. with different Cooldowns on abilities i think it could fark things up for me a bit..
Download Quartz. It has a GCD monitor in addition the the cast bar, latency, and swing timer tools it offers.


M0wglie: There's nothing wrong with using PvP gear that happens to be itemized well for PvE. The S3 gloves, for instance, are the best in the game currently. With the addition of ArP to the warrior S3 gear, you're probably seeing a lot of them swapping their instance drops out. I use the S3 helm, gloves, and weapon currently, and am always in the top 5 for personal dps while bringing the extra set of blessings, judgements, and sanctity aura. As always, its less about trading one class for another, as it is one player for another.

Last edited by Gormal : 02/15/08 at 9:19 AM.
#2212SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3m0wglie
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
blarg... hrm.. what i really need is it to show the judgement cooldown, but for it to also force display the GCD when i hit another spell even though judgement doesn't require it... wonder if that is possible or not.. well, i'll ask the boffins in the forums if they have any ideas.

i don't like the idea of the cast sequence, especially meshing CS in it. with different Cooldowns on abilities i think it could fark things up for me a bit..
Hey Veilyn! Small world

I've been using Quartz (and various other cooldown monitors - I'm considering writing one because I know what I want it to look like and none of the others do the job quite right) to keep an eye on my GCD. I get the problem though - that an accidental early press of your judge/reseal macro leaves you without your seal up until your GCD finishes. What you'd really want is to apply the GCD to the judge/reseal macro even though you can judge off the GCD, right?

Is that possible?
#2213SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
Macros in WoW don't auto-fire do they?

Atleast for me, the /castsequence macro, still requires me to hit it twice for it to work properly (Once to judge, another to recast SoC.)

My Usual DPS Cycle is on a 9 sec router, where I hit CS, macro, macro...consecrate, rinse repeat.

In any case, I will try out the...

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

Macro, for Alliance (so replacing SoB with SoC.) for our SSC raid tonight, and let you all know how it goes.
#2214SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3m0wglie
Originally Posted by Samiel View Post
Macros in WoW don't auto-fire do they?

Atleast for me, the /castsequence macro, still requires me to hit it twice for it to work properly (Once to judge, another to recast SoC.)

My Usual DPS Cycle is on a 9 sec router, where I hit CS, macro, macro...consecrate, rinse repeat.

In any case, I will try out the...

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

Macro, for Alliance (so replacing SoB with SoC.) for our SSC raid tonight, and let you all know how it goes.
/cast judgement
/cast seal of whatever

will cast both abilities.

/castsequence judgement, seal of whatever

will require that you click twice.
#2215SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
I have been using the macro for awhile now and I find it works well for me. It does reseal after CS and Judgement is cast.

So I have one macro which starts my attack and cast Seal of the Crusader. Then I use this macro.

The only think I see happening with this macro that I am not sure about is because of the two crusader strikes in there after the first judegment and reseal, it will wait for the second CS to cast before it cast the second judgement and reseal.
#2216SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
I have been using the macro for awhile now and I find it works well for me. It does reseal after CS and Judgement is cast.

So I have one macro which starts my attack and cast Seal of the Crusader. Then I use this macro.

The only think I see happening with this macro that I am not sure about is because of the two crusader strikes in there after the first judegment and reseal, it will wait for the second CS to cast before it cast the second judgement and reseal.
The reason for this is shown in the original DPS cycle mapping that's available in the first post of the thread.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1581/retcycle2ym8.jpg

Take a look at the 8 second judgement cycle. They mesh accordingly.
#2217SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
So an opener macro that reads.

/startattack
/cast Seal of the Crusader

Followed by the

/castsequence macro, would be preferable to a

/cast judgement
/cast Seal of Command macro, DPS-wise, do you think?
#2218SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mithar
I use OmniCC. It shows cooldowns for all of your abilities. I have the judge/reseal macro and the addon shows the timer for the judgemt. It also shows when the GCD is up. Hope this helps.
#2219SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Samiel View Post
So an opener macro that reads.

/startattack
/cast Seal of the Crusader

Followed by the

/castsequence macro, would be preferable to a

/cast judgement
/cast Seal of Command macro, DPS-wise, do you think?
I'm starting to lean that way, yes. It also prevents you from resealing and wasting mana if you try to judge too early.

I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet, but it looks like it would offer a tight cycle.
#2220SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
The reason for this is shown in the original DPS cycle mapping that's available in the first post of the thread.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1581/retcycle2ym8.jpg

Take a look at the 8 second judgement cycle. They mesh accordingly.
Ah yes, I can see it. thanks!
#2221SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by m0wglie View Post
I'm here for a bit of advice.
The synergy of the group you described is great. Provided that you have decent gear, there should be no issues with you replacing a rogue in that group. If you don't have a paladin healer, the blessings alone would be more than enough justification to bring you along.

With regard to the shunning of pvp geared paladins, I think it's just a rumor. Like you said, the pvp gear is excellent for pve (I still have 3 pieces of S3). Some of the items you listed are the best or close to the best in the game. Once you start doing ZA, you'll have access to upgrades such as [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse], [Cloak of Fiends], [Signet of Primal Wrath], and [Berserker's Call]. Only advice is to run Heroic BF for [Libram of Avengement].
#2222SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
That said, the castsequence macro that was posted below

will ensure that your seal will ALWAYS go up again after, but it's ridged, and if you want to switch buff-seals (JotC -> JoW for instance), you have to wait til your castsequence gets to judgement, then activate your buff seal, and then continue with the castsequence. It does let you shut your brain off, however.
I created a few macros to help with switching.

/startattack
/cast Seal of the Crusader

/startattack
/cast Seal of Wisdom


/startattack
/cast Seal of Light

etc
#2223SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Onacouch View Post
I was examining the graphic posted by Avitius located here:
http://elitistjerks.com/633109-post1982.html

Now I will admit it's been a long time since I've taken a math course, but I was a little unsure of the armor penn. line. As far as I can tell armor doesn't scale as a linear function. If you were to graph the function y=x^0.5 it would provide a good image for how armor scales (at least in my head, I could be completely wrong about this). For every 1% damage reduction you gain in armor you need even more armor to gain an additional 1% scaling exponentially.

But if you're trying trying to reduce a target's armor to zero wouldn't the line look more like the positive side of y=x^2? As you get closer to 0 armor you're reducing a mob's damage reduction exponentially, no? On his graph it appears to be a straight line.

Is there something I'm missing here?
You are absolutely right, the increase in dps from armor pen is not linear. However the plot of the graph that you're referring to is in fact not linear (it just looks it), the reason being is that it is only showing a change of 500 armor so to the eye it is looking linear. However if you check the dps increase at 0,50,100 itemisation points you will see the gain from 50-->100 is more than the gain from 0-->50

Alternatively you can enter 50 for the armor pen / itemisation point to get a bigger armor change range, adjust the scales accordingly and you will see the line does curve as expected.
#2224SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
When you do the Analyze Items in Bellator's spreadsheet, does that take into account things like hit rating/precisions/etc? Reason I ask is that after my 2 latest upgrades (neck and weapon), the spreadsheet now lists no upgrades at all for shoulders, and I'm in Justicar. It used to list at least a pair or two (albeit very minor DPS upgrade amounts), or is something else amiss?
#2225SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Schadrak View Post
When you do the Analyze Items in Bellator's spreadsheet, does that take into account things like hit rating/precisions/etc? Reason I ask is that after my 2 latest upgrades (neck and weapon), the spreadsheet now lists no upgrades at all for shoulders, and I'm in Justicar. It used to list at least a pair or two (albeit very minor DPS upgrade amounts), or is something else amiss?
Yes, it takes into account all of your current stats. Hit is an important stat, but shouldn't be overvalued. For example, i current raid with 75 hit, simply because wearing the [Ring of a Thousand Marks] to get capped does not make up for the DPS lost by wearing [Signet of Primal Wrath].

That being said, I wasn't aware the spreadsheet had an "upgrade" feature... but if there is one thing MaxDps.com is useful for, its finding potential upgrades. Try swapping some of those items, such as the [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] or T5 shoulders and see if you can get a dps increase.
#2226SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Schadrak View Post
When you do the Analyze Items in Bellator's spreadsheet, does that take into account things like hit rating/precisions/etc? Reason I ask is that after my 2 latest upgrades (neck and weapon), the spreadsheet now lists no upgrades at all for shoulders, and I'm in Justicar. It used to list at least a pair or two (albeit very minor DPS upgrade amounts), or is something else amiss?
If the spreadsheet is using the new values for the tier sets (I'm not sure if the latest version is, I'm still running with an old version) its possible they are best for the gear you have access to. At the moment I'm positive the recolored T5 Warrior ones are better, as well as Tier 5.
#2227SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Schadrak
Im still using the 2.3.2 one (it, not the reitemized pieces). When I say "upgrade" I mean in game I upgraded 2 items, so I changed my gear in the spreadsheet, did the analyze items and the lists was a little different, but I would expect (with everything turned on, hyjal/bt/etc) some shoulders better than Justicar..
#2228SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
I use both bellator and maxdps spreadsheets and the biggest discrepancy I find is how they rank the importance of haste (at least for SoC). For instance, maxdps shows [Berserker's Call] being better than [Dragonspine Trophy] where Bellator has the DST almost double Berserker's (this happens in a few other slots as well). Does anyone know which spreadsheet has the best representation of "upgrades" for each slot?
#2229SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rasputin
My only quibble about losing hit rating for higher rated DPS items without hit is that it does not account for the increased possibility of having your judgements drop. It may not be a huge deal in all fights, but since a major part of our utility is supposed to be maintaining those judgements, I prefer to eliminate as many avenues to failure of that goal as possible. I've already seen triple CS dodges, making me rabid for expertise, and if I dropped below cap and saw dodge dodge miss I'd probably go cry somewhere. So I'd prefer to sacrifice some personal dps for the knowledge that I will never miss a CS.

Last edited by Rasputin : 02/15/08 at 2:21 PM. Reason: Spelling correction
#2230SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
I'm on the PTR right now. Refreshing Judgement of the Crusader no longer procs [Libram of Avengement]. Seems like they finally fixed it

Gevlin, are you putting in your raid buffs? DST is a Haste trinket, which means it scales very well with buffs, whereas Berserker's Call is AP - a static bonus that is not effected by buffs.
#2231SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Gevlin, are you putting in your raid buffs? DST is a Haste trinket, which means it scales very well with buffs, whereas Berserker's Call is AP - a static bonus that is not effected by buffs.
well on Bellator's its easy to break down so i have everything on there. on max dps i'm just hand waving putting in buffed AP at 3400, 1100 armor pen (assuming an already reduced 3500 boss armor), hit cap, and 38% or so crit. still shows me berserker's call coming out ahead. strange. maybe i should start rolling on DST huh? especially if they make SoC scale with haste or give us an equivalent to SoB.
#2232SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
I use both bellator and maxdps spreadsheets and the biggest discrepancy I find is how they rank the importance of haste (at least for SoC). For instance, maxdps shows [Berserker's Call] being better than [Dragonspine Trophy] where Bellator has the DST almost double Berserker's (this happens in a few other slots as well). Does anyone know which spreadsheet has the best representation of "upgrades" for each slot?
Mine does :p

Kidding of course. In terms of these two items, i would guess that the discrepency between the two lies not in modelling of haste but more in the modeling of the DST proc. Mine is modelled assuming a 25% uptime, i'm not sure how maxdps does there's, but i would guess they might be modelling a 16.6% uptime
#2233SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Mine does :p

Kidding of course. In terms of these two items, i would guess that the discrepency between the two lies not in modelling of haste but more in the modeling of the DST proc. Mine is modelled assuming a 25% uptime, i'm not sure how maxdps does there's, but i would guess they might be modelling a 16.6% uptime
ah, that 16.6% vs 25% is probably where that "almost double" comes from. anybody that use DST have concrete numbers on average uptime?
#2234SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
So, looking over the available loot known from Sunwell, I've been trying to figure out the best way to get to 95 hit rating. So far I have, from gear;

[Choker of Endless Nightmares] 21 hit
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] 17 hit
[Glyph of Ferocity] 16 hit
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] 23 hit

leaving me with 77 hit. So, to find the remaining 18 hit, I can either socket a pair of [Rigid Lionseye] into an available yellow socket or pick up one of the following:

[Band of the Ranger-General] in place of [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] for a 9 dps loss

or

[Dreadboots of the Legion] in place of [Lightbringer Boots] for about a 19 dps loss

I'm not sure if bellator's spreadsheet includes gems in the item calc function or not, which is why I wouldn't just throw it to the ring. So, assuming it does, has anyone come up with anything better so far? Or am I getting ahead of myself and should wait for more gear to be discovered?
#2235SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
I think your best option would be to use the 16hit rating enchant on your helm, but you're still 2 hit rating short.

Or how about [Madness of the Betrayer]?
#2236SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rasputin
I included the helm enchant already.

I'm unsure about Madness. The spreadsheet places it decently below both DST, and therefore also the Shard of Contempt. I'd have to imagine that would be a greater dps loss than the ring.

Another possibility would be to socket 1 [Rigid Lionseye] and 2 [Etched Fire Opal] to reach exactly 18 hit.

Last edited by Rasputin : 02/15/08 at 7:43 PM. Reason: broken itemlink
#2237SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3masume
Armory on PTR

Armory was just upgraded in PTR

Apparently tokens for various tiers of gear (t4,t5) can be exchanged for the equivalent in pvp

Screenshots will be uploaded when properly cropped
#2238SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
looking to get hold of the latest spreadsheet. anyone got a link? i tried the one a few pages back but it seems dead
#2239SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by masume View Post
Armory was just upgraded in PTR

Apparently tokens for various tiers of gear (t4,t5) can be exchanged for the equivalent in pvp

Screenshots will be uploaded when properly cropped
Does this extend to T6/S3?
#2240SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Does this extend to T6/S3?
Tier 6 tokens can be turned in for Season 2 right now (might be a bug, I would think they would go into season 3) and the new tokens from SWP (Boots Belt, Bracers) can be turned in for Season 3 honor pieces.
#2241SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xenozenith
New comer here...i would like to ask about what is the dps cycle for a ret pally. I know theres a chart at the 1st page, but i have difficulty understanding >.<

Can some one state down what the DPS cycle is like? i.e when to Judge, when to CS so as to avoid getting stuck on GCD...Sorry for asking but im a noob
#2242SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Xaoc
First page has all the details
#2243SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Am I missing something here. The new Justicar Helm in 2.4 is less dps than the old Justicar Crown according to the dps spreadsheet?
#2244SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tonyk
Well, Rasputin, it might be lower dps, but that 20 hit rating is needed, and if you get it on the trinket you have more room on other pieces of gear for more Strength/haste/crit.



New PTR build has some interesting items. [Signet of Primal Wrath] is considered the best ring for a Ret Paladin according to maxdps, and the new gear from the sunwell shows a ring with the same stats but 1 more agility: Sunwell Badge Loot - Melee Ring - Items - World of Warcraft

I guess using both these rings would result in the highest dps you can get?

[The Blade of Harbingers] (The Blade of Harbingers - Items - World of Warcraft) looks nice. I wonder how it stacks up to [Cataclysm's Edge].
#2245SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zraknul
Since there seems to be an assortment of comments on this thread of what skills armor penetration actually effects:

White damage and what?

SoB to my understanding is considered magic (holy) damage, and the same with crusader strike; they don't scale with plus damage as they're only based off your "tool tip" weapon damage?

Obviously JoB, exorcism and consecration are all spell damage.

Please correct where if I'm mistaken somewhere.
#2246SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Locazo
Originally Posted by Zraknul View Post
Since there seems to be an assortment of comments on this thread of what skills armor penetration actually effects:

White damage and what?

SoB to my understanding is considered magic (holy) damage, and the same with crusader strike; they don't scale with plus damage as they're only based off your "tool tip" weapon damage?

Obviously JoB, exorcism and consecration are all spell damage.

Please correct where if I'm mistaken somewhere.

Crusader strike is physical damage. Armor pen works on our white damage and CS, which is the majority of our damage.
#2247SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Tonyk View Post
Well, Rasputin, it might be lower dps, but that 20 hit rating is needed, and if you get it on the trinket you have more room on other pieces of gear for more Strength/haste/crit.



New PTR build has some interesting items. [Signet of Primal Wrath] is considered the best ring for a Ret Paladin according to maxdps, and the new gear from the sunwell shows a ring with the same stats but 1 more agility: Sunwell Badge Loot - Melee Ring - Items - World of Warcraft

I guess using both these rings would result in the highest dps you can get?

[The Blade of Harbingers] (The Blade of Harbingers - Items - World of Warcraft) looks nice. I wonder how it stacks up to [Cataclysm's Edge].
Yeah, I only meant it was a greater DPS loss than using the [Band of the Ranger-General]. I think at this point, with new gear being discovered frequently, I'll shelve this discussion until the PTR seems a bit more finalized.
#2248SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
So, looking over the available loot known from Sunwell, I've been trying to figure out the best way to get to 95 hit rating. So far I have, from gear;
Considered Surefooted enchant on your boots instead of 12 agi?
#2249SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
So our choices for new 2 handed weapons for SWP...

A 3.5 speed Axe itemized for hunters, and a 3.5 speed sword itemized for Hunters. Anyone else a little disturbed by this? Where is the big slow mace?
#2250SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
So our choices for new 2 handed weapons for SWP...

A 3.5 speed Axe itemized for hunters, and a 3.5 speed sword itemized for Hunters. Anyone else a little disturbed by this? Where is the big slow mace?
While this isn't quite the issue for me personally, I agree that it is a problem. But just to make sure, is Apolyon at least an upgrade to Torch for Alliance?
#2251SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Blade of Harbingers is better than Torch/Cataclysm for Blood Elves, which is...interesting.
#2252SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
While this isn't quite the issue for me personally, I agree that it is a problem. But just to make sure, is Apolyon at least an upgrade to Torch for Alliance?
Sure it is an upgrade, but by "brute force" alone, the item level is so high, that even with crapy stat choice is the best weapon in the game for alliance pallys too... the diference is that is a LOT better for BE pallys.

Hope devs fix this Horde>>>>Alliance problem regarding ret pallys.
#2253SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
Sure it is an upgrade, but by "brute force" alone, the item level is so high, that even with crapy stat choice is the best weapon in the game for alliance pallys too... the diference is that is a LOT better for BE pallys.
Just to make things a little more crystal clear, Apolyon is roughly a 25 DPS upgrade over a [Torch of the Damned] with Seal of Command, and a 53 DPS upgrade with Seal of Blood.
#2254SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Just to make things a little more crystal clear, Apolyon is roughly a 25 DPS upgrade over a [Torch of the Damned] with Seal of Command, and a 53 DPS upgrade with Seal of Blood.
Exactly... thats a HUGE diference. And we are taking just about a weapon...
#2255SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
For those wnting to see the effects of changin the way SoC works of hasted hit, go into the "DPS Calc" Tab and change formula in C17 to read:-

=7/(60/C4)
#2256SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
For those wnting to see the effects of changin the way SoC works of hasted hit, go into the "DPS Calc" Tab and change formula in C17 to read:-

=7/(60/C4)
Your DPS Spreadsheet is great, and very helpfull. I used to do the math manually, it saves a lot of time.

1 thing you could fix, when adding a new item, once you select a gem, you can't delete it, you get only 3 options (R, Y, B), none for deleting the gem from the item. Not a big thing, but a little annoying.
#2257SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
Your DPS Spreadsheet is great, and very helpfull. I used to do the math manually, it saves a lot of time.

1 thing you could fix, when adding a new item, once you select a gem, you can't delete it, you get only 3 options (R, Y, B), none for deleting the gem from the item. Not a big thing, but a little annoying.
Click on the cell with the gem in and press delete. Will remove it. Will add a clear in a later feature
#2258SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
For Alliance Pallies that lament that Red Belt of Battle is best in-slot, in 2.4 you can buy Vortex with badges and gold.


That new Axe is really good for BEs (2nd best in-game).
#2259SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
For Alliance Pallies that lament that Red Belt of Battle is best in-slot, in 2.4 you can buy Vortex with badges and gold.


That new Axe is really good for BEs (2nd best in-game).
I plugged that new axe [The Blade of Harbingers], I am assuming from Badge of Justice, into the spreadsheet, it seems like the best weapon for a Ret Blood Elf paladin in the game.
#2260SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Don't forget the 156 dps weapon called Apolyon . Although many will not see for a while, it is in-game.
#2261SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Shalymar
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Don't forget the 156 dps weapon called Apolyon . Although many will not see for a while, it is in-game.
Yeah, I don't foresee many Ret Paladins getting that sword anytime soon, however, if this Axe can be obtained via Badges, even if it is 200+ I see many Paladins running around with it even though it seems more like a Hunter's axe then a Ret Paladin weapon. You are correct though, that sword is very nice also.

Last edited by Shalymar : 02/16/08 at 12:46 PM.
#2262SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
I must say, I would be horribly surprised if this "BT quality badge loot" is actually a reference to [Badge of Justice].

I think it will be most probably some sort of "Sunwell" related badge, I hardly see how putting 134 DPS weapons in the game that you can earn by doing Heroic Slave Pens every day would benefit in the game in the slightest.
#2263SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Sunwell bosses drop good old [Badge of Justice]s. So yes, you can now get ilevel 141s for running heroic mech 50 times in a row.

Its all just prepping for the gear reset when WotLK hits. Its a lot like how easy they made high level PvP gear to get in patches 1.12 and 2.0.
#2264SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
I hardly see how putting 134 DPS weapons in the game that you can earn by doing Heroic Slave Pens every day would benefit in the game in the slightest.
While this matter is outside the realm of this thread, the expansion will have a gear reset, so allowing people some fine leveling gear seems like a good idea, especially with upcoming MMOs that may be competitive with WoW.


Another thing it will take servers 1-2 months before they get to the badges vendor, and note this content is subject to change, it isn't live just yet.


Also, some class changes may happen in the future to make melee haste good for Alliance too, so they can have the 2nd best weapon in the game from badges as well.
#2265SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Ah damn, I had stopped reading in disgust at the massive added imbalance the new gear is introducing (Haste gear taking the whole "SoB vs SoC" issue to a whole new level of imbalanced unfairness), but I didn't expect 10 new pages so fast!

People sure have been busy, anyway skimming through the Jerry Springer-style drama with that rogue and what not, some comments that have accumulated:


Originally Posted by Dyermaker View Post
Secondly, Abominations hurt, sharing aggro during these pulls must be done. It is something that requires all of the tanks to learn together. However, once they learn to work together, these things are not an issue.
Not really a ret issue, but you can solo tank all abominations with prot spec and good enough gear. At ~24k hp buffed and good healers it's a non issue.

Ret spec in prot gear you have to hold back a bit with the AoE tanking however.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I believe they're playing it safe.


For 2.3:
"Okay, we're going to boost Ret paladin DPS a bit so that raids will see more of a benefit of having 1, but let's not over-do it, or we might make them too desirable"

<insert widespread paladin protest on lack of threat reduction>

"Okay, judging by community feedback, they won't be happy with 2.3 if it doesn't have threat reduction. One more buff for this patch"


I see the same strategy going on with the Spell damage -> Str thing. They're making small incremental changes (S3 change in 2.3, CS change in 2.3.3, small changes on 2.4 PTR), and ignore the negative side effects because the community generally doesn't care. On the upside, this might mean they have more time to redesign thoroughly.
Emphasis mine.

Your post just further proves my point. It took "community feedback" to get the threat reduction change implemented, without it they "might" have not added it.

Which is why I believe we're in a similar situation atm with the horde vs alliance/SoB vs SoC haste gear imbalance. And as much as I dread to be promoting such a thing, I think blizz forum whining might actually be required to make a change.

-SoB/SoV have to be given to the other factions

or

-SoC mechanics have to be changed to benefit more from the new haste itemization and be a true upgrade over SoB (as it should be, since it's a non-trainer seal).



Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I'm a blood elf. Seal of Blood is more DPS than Seal of Command, so you shouldn't feel bad at all.

While this is true in most cases, I believe (at least until 2.4 hits) with the added spelldamage in T6 gear, if you can maintain a max rank consecration/exorcism rotation on Teron (and yes you can), this evens or even turns the favor the other side

I can personally confirm 1950 DPS on a Teron Fight (making video when I manage to get 2k) in a group with enhance shammy + MS warrior + 2 rogues.


Originally Posted by m0wglie View Post
1) Regarding the worth of Retribution paladins in 10-man
There's been a lot of discussion that I've seen regarding retribution paladins in 25-man raids. Common wisdom is that the extra blessing, the judgements, JotC and Sanc Aura in a Rogue/Rogue/Ret/Enh/Feral group increase raid DPS.

However, we're wanting to do some experimentation with a Ret Paladin in our melee group (setup would be Prot warrior, Feral Druid, Combat Rogue, Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin) since we usually end up with either a spare caster or our holy paladin in there.

Would you expect the synergy of Feral/Combat/Enhancement/Ret (plus the synergy of JotC with Imp SB, and the extra JoW uptime) to justify the inclusion of a Ret Paladin over a "pure" DPSer? (We would be replacing either an Arcane Mage, or a Moonkin, but we also have the option of a 2nd rogue, a hunter, or an arms warrior)

As a matter of fact, in our timed runs I usually end up between 1-2 on the overall DPS for the run. Just make very good use of Consecration on the multitude of trash pulls that come with tons of adds and spam pots throughout.

Make sure the holy paladin places JoW on the bosses.


Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Yes, it takes into account all of your current stats. Hit is an important stat, but shouldn't be overvalued. For example, i current raid with 75 hit, simply because wearing the [Ring of a Thousand Marks] to get capped does not make up for the DPS lost by wearing [Signet of Primal Wrath].
Might I offer some [Spicy Hot Talbuk] instead of Str food? It would land you exactly at the cap

Until capped, Hit is the most valuable stat there is, so going 20 Hit over 20 Str is definitely a good trade off.




Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
looking to get hold of the latest spreadsheet. anyone got a link? i tried the one a few pages back but it seems dead
The link never changes: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

Also on the first page.



Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
While this isn't quite the issue for me personally, I agree that it is a problem. But just to make sure, is Apolyon at least an upgrade to Torch for Alliance?
It's an upgrade, but not an optimal one. As someone perfectly put it: An upgrade by "brute force itemvalue".

On the other hand, I have to wonder:

The actual stats are 416-625 frontload (average 520) @ 3.5 speed = 148.7 DPS.

If it was bumped to 3.8 speed, we'd be looking at an average frontload of 564, max ~670. Is it possible they're avoiding this due to PvP imbalance?

Considering the highest current max frontload weapon (Torch) is just 5 damage shy of 600 max frontload, having the next upgrade be close to 700 max frontload would be pretty extreme.

Just some theorizing, nothing conclusive, but one has to wonder if that's the reason
#2266SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
The burning question atm most of us should have is:

Can we confirm that SoC proc chance is based off the hasted speed and therefore does not gain a ppm increase through the mass of Haste itemization in 2.4?

Theras, I think you were working on some extensive testing on PTR to confirm my rough results, how's that going?


I believe this is the missing detail needed to start a lynch fest/crusade on the official Blizzard forums about the SoB vs SoC unfairness.


Currently, there's roughly a ~150 DPS difference in Sunwell level gear (which has a lot of haste itemized).

According to spreadsheet adjustments, if SoC would go off the BASE speed, the difference would shrink to 100 DPS, still too large and worth complaint, but I'd like to know where we're at first.


They've really dug a hole for themselves with this SoB/SoV "faction only" business, similar to how fear ward was pre-TBC, I really can't see any workable outcome besides giving alliance SoB or completely changing/upgrading SoC to be superior to both.
#2267SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Theras, I think you were working on some extensive testing on PTR to confirm my rough results, how's that going?
When character copy stops taking a dump I'll start testing.
#2268SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
When character copy stops taking a dump I'll start testing.
If you need any help, I have access to several pieces of haste gear and can easily afk smacking a blasted lands servant judged with light(assuming this is still the way one gathers several hours of testing).
#2269SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
If you need any help, I have access to several pieces of haste gear and can easily afk smacking a blasted lands servant judged with light(assuming this is still the way one gathers several hours of testing).
Both JoW and JoL are not ppm (they are flat 50% proc chances).


Unfortunately the only "legal" way to test it would actually require manually refreshing SoC every 30 secs for a very long time :/

A 3rd party keyboard/mouse macro could be used (to automatically press your SoC keyboard button every 29 secs), but I think that would go against the ToS, despite not being used for any "illegal" purposes, though I wonder if such regulations strictly apply and are monitored on the PTR.
#2270SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Both JoW and JoL are not ppm (they are flat 50% proc chances).


Unfortunately the only "legal" way to test it would actually require manually refreshing SoC every 30 secs for a very long time :/

A 3rd party keyboard/mouse macro could be used (to automatically press your SoC keyboard button every 29 secs), but I think that would go against the ToS, despite not being used for any "illegal" purposes, though I wonder if such regulations strictly apply and are monitored on the PTR.
Yeah, I just meant JoL to keep me alive indefinitely, I use that to level my weapon skill. As for SoC, I could easily tap that for a few hours while I troll various forums. Depending on my bravery I could even G15 it while watching the screen, but I tend to be a law-abiding type of guy so I would most likely load up my second comp and go to town for a few hours while I watch TV or browse the internet. The offer still stands if Theras wants a second data set.
#2271SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
The offer still stands if Theras wants a second data set.
Just go for it, if you need help parsing it, just PM me.

All we'll need is:

Number of swings, time, parries, dodges, number of procs, amount of haste, base weapon speed, SoC uptime (should be 100%), avoid mongoose or procs that cause haste

I'd do it if I had the time, but don't have access to wow here ;/
#2272SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Just go for it, if you need help parsing it, just PM me.

All we'll need is:

Number of swings, time, parries, dodges, number of procs, amount of haste, base weapon speed, SoC uptime (should be 100%), avoid mongoose or procs that cause haste

I'd do it if I had the time, but don't have access to wow here ;/
I'm not big on statistics. Any idea on how many swings I'd need to generate something approaching a reasonable sample? Should I get as much haste as possible equipped in order to show any potential differences more sharply?

Also, does it have to be on the PTR? I've actually picked up a few more haste pieces on live since I transferred. If PTR that should still be fine, just wondering.

I'd planned to simply generate a WWS of the test, but I can certainly send the combatlog to someone for parsing using some other program if that would be useful.
#2273SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
WWS is perfect. Live server is equally ok.

Max haste gear would be best.
#2274SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Might I offer some [Spicy Hot Talbuk] instead of Str food? It would land you exactly at the cap

Until capped, Hit is the most valuable stat there is, so going 20 Hit over 20 Str is definitely a good trade off.
Well of course I've been using hit food! That being said, I would rather not have to rely on it, since the possibility of dying and getting combat ressed is always around, and once you die during a fight, you can't get your food buff back. In addition, we recently got a feral druid who has decided to go Moonkin...while he isn't around all the time, the extra 3% hit makes me lazy sometimes.
#2275SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rasputin
Here's the first chunk of testing. It's not as much as I wanted to but I had to run out in the middle of my expected block of time. I'll try to grab some more haste gear as I can and hopefully do some more testing later when I can get a larger chunk of time in and more haste available.

Haste gear was:
[Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
[Girdle of the Lightbearer]
[Band of Devastation]

Base weapon speed of 3.7, haste rating of 108 for 6.85% haste, hasted weapon speed of 3.46.

Jayhanez - WWS

edit: I realize this amount of testing isn't of great use, I just didn't want you guys to think I'd forgotten or abandoned the project. I'll definitely try to pick up at least another [Band of Devastation] and a pair of [Pillager's Gauntlets] when they drop and re-do this testing with a more significant number of trials.

Last edited by Rasputin : 02/17/08 at 1:27 PM. Reason: addition
#2276SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Onacouch
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Here's the first chunk of testing. It's not as much as I wanted to but I had to run out in the middle of my expected block of time. I'll try to grab some more haste gear as I can and hopefully do some more testing later when I can get a larger chunk of time in and more haste available.

Haste gear was:
[Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
[Girdle of the Lightbearer]
[Band of Devastation]

Base weapon speed of 3.7, haste rating of 108 for 6.85% haste, hasted weapon speed of 3.46.

Jayhanez - WWS

edit: I realize this amount of testing isn't of great use, I just didn't want you guys to think I'd forgotten or abandoned the project. I'll definitely try to pick up at least another [Band of Devastation] and a pair of [Pillager's Gauntlets] when they drop and re-do this testing with a more significant number of trials.
556 procs per 87 minutes... That's only 6.39 PPM... am I missing something here?
#2277SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Onacouch View Post
556 procs per 87 minutes... That's only 6.39 PPM... am I missing something here?
He was wearing a lot of haste gear, so gives cred that haste is bad for SoC.
#2278SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Onacouch
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
He was wearing a lot of haste gear, so gives cred that haste is bad for SoC.
What is it that we're trying to conclude here? That haste makes SoC proc less often somehow? I thought SoC was being tested to determine if it scaled at all with haste.

Regardless of haste I was expecting SoC to come in at 7PPM, am I wrong in this assumption?
#2279SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
He was wearing a lot of haste gear, so gives cred that haste is bad for SoC.
Haste is not "bad" per say, just not useful for SoC. (As in it won't reduce the ppm)

Given 108 haste rating and a ppm equal or lower than 7, seems to confirm that haste does not improve the ppm (and that SoC is based off the hasted speed), though longer tests would further reduce the error margin.
#2280SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
blarg... hrm.. what i really need is it to show the judgement cooldown, but for it to also force display the GCD when i hit another spell even though judgement doesn't require it... wonder if that is possible or not.. well, i'll ask the boffins in the forums if they have any ideas.

i don't like the idea of the cast sequence, especially meshing CS in it. with different Cooldowns on abilities i think it could fark things up for me a bit..
a few pages back i was looking for a way to tighten up seals etc..

seems it's pretty simple

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

the "#showtooltip Seal of Blood" part prevents me from accidentally judging during the GCD and farking of the seal recast elements of the macro. now i have to wait until wednesday to test it in a proper raid situation..
#2281SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Onacouch View Post
What is it that we're trying to conclude here? That haste makes SoC proc less often somehow? I thought SoC was being tested to determine if it scaled at all with haste.

Regardless of haste I was expecting SoC to come in at 7PPM, am I wrong in this assumption?
No, I think I just didn't have a sufficient number of hits to eliminate variance in proc rate. If the PPM looked like that after some 10,000 hits that might be cause for concern. I'm no statistician but I feel like for ~1500 hits a .61 variance of the PPM falls within the margin for error. Hopefully those gloves and a ring will drop this next week(no competition so I'll almost definitely get them) and I'll be able to get a sample closer to 5,000 hits at least within a week or so.
#2282SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Aramul
Originally Posted by Onacouch View Post
What is it that we're trying to conclude here? That haste makes SoC proc less often somehow? I thought SoC was being tested to determine if it scaled at all with haste.

Regardless of haste I was expecting SoC to come in at 7PPM, am I wrong in this assumption?
PPM has nothing to do with the number of procs over an interval, it only sets the percent chance of a proc on any given hit. The number of procs needs to be compared to the number of hits to determine the chance of a proc, and that number should be compared to the expected chance.

Edit:

A 3.70 speed weapon should proc SoC on 43.17% of the hits.
A 3.46 speed weapon should proc SoC on 40.37% of the hits.

Melee hit 1066 times and crit 494 times. 1560 total hits.
SoC hit 400 times, and crit 156 times. 556 total procs.

Actual proc rate is 556/1560 = 35.64%

Last edited by Aramul : 02/17/08 at 7:49 PM.
#2283SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
...
Emphasis mine.

Your post just further proves my point. It took "community feedback" to get the threat reduction change implemented, without it they "might" have not added it.

Which is why I believe we're in a similar situation atm with the horde vs alliance/SoB vs SoC haste gear imbalance. And as much as I dread to be promoting such a thing, I think blizz forum whining might actually be required to make a change.

-SoB/SoV have to be given to the other factions

or

-SoC mechanics have to be changed to benefit more from the new haste itemization and be a true upgrade over SoB (as it should be, since it's a non-trainer seal).
My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things. The S3 + CS change, for example, is a PvE raid DPS buff. For PvP (burst, sustained damage), the changes break even at best, and lost some other side benefits I happen to like. (scaling for SoR, heal & consecrate)


S3 is PvP gear ... the change based on community feedback did not make it any better for PvP.


Maybe it'll be an unquestionable upgrade after 2.4... but then why not make the changes then instead of now? Because the community wanted *some* change now, even if the supporting talent/mechanics changes did not come with it.
#2284SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
a few pages back i was looking for a way to tighten up seals etc..

seems it's pretty simple

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

the "#showtooltip Seal of Blood" part prevents me from accidentally judging during the GCD and farking of the seal recast elements of the macro. now i have to wait until wednesday to test it in a proper raid situation..
Is there a way to prevent you from recasting the seal? Like sometimes I spam judge and it recasts and wastes mana, any way to make sure its not up already before casting?
#2285SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things. The S3 + CS change, for example, is a PvE raid DPS buff. For PvP (burst, sustained damage), the changes break even at best, and lost some other side benefits I happen to like. (scaling for SoR, heal & consecrate)

S3 is PvP gear ... the change based on community feedback did not make it any better for PvP.

Maybe it'll be an unquestionable upgrade after 2.4... but then why not make the changes then instead of now? Because the community wanted *some* change now, even if the supporting talent/mechanics changes did not come with it.
Blizzard seems to be taking the class changes for ret incredibly slowly. I could be that they've learned from the huge mistakes they made in the giant class review patches of Vanilia (where they would change entire playstyles of classes in a single patch), or it could simply be that they have no idea what direction they want to take the spec in right now. My bets lie on the first option. Its pretty clear from the removal of SD from the sets and the redesign of CS that we are moving towards the removal of spell damage from the ret tree. By introducing the changes gradually they are able to monitor just how much each thing is affected and more informed choices on future decisions from there.

I think you're forgetting the first incarnation of the S3 ret armor (with spell damage, resilliance, and armor penetration) and just how terrible it was. Thanks to community feedback the set was redesigned, and though it may not be "perfect" in your books, it sure is better itemized than almost everything else we get. Generally I find simply that the general public on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about, and get a lot of misinformation (look at all the "2.3 sets are a nerf!" or "2.3.2 CS is a nerf!" or "2.4 sets are a nerf!" threads that pop up that are completely incorrect).

On a side note, I just got back from my first Hyjal run as ret. It was quite enjoyable and an excellent break from the monotony of healing.
#2286SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Los
Originally Posted by Subject View Post
Is there a way to prevent you from recasting the seal? Like sometimes I spam judge and it recasts and wastes mana, any way to make sure its not up already before casting?
I use

#showtooltip
/cast Judgement
/castsequence reset=8 Seal of Blood, Judgement
/startattack

I used to have a simple Judge/reseal but i always had the same problem you have, as im a button spammer too.
#2287SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Subject
Originally Posted by Los View Post
I use

#showtooltip
/cast Judgement
/castsequence reset=8 Seal of Blood, Judgement
/startattack

I used to have a simple Judge/reseal but i always had the same problem you have, as im a button spammer too.
Appreciated, ill give it a shot next raid.
#2288SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Siral
If you wanna be a "real" one-button spammer you must use this macro

/castsequence reset=target/combat Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

Keep an eye about your GCD and never judge right after a Crusader Strike but wait for your GCD so you can Judge and Seal in the same moment and dont lose Seal up time and cast if possibile Consecration or Exorcsim in the dead times between Crusader Strikes
#2289SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
a few pages back i was looking for a way to tighten up seals etc..

seems it's pretty simple

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

the "#showtooltip Seal of Blood" part prevents me from accidentally judging during the GCD and farking of the seal recast elements of the macro. now i have to wait until wednesday to test it in a proper raid situation..
Hi Veilyn.

I've been using the same as above for a while now, since I don't like extensive macros. Just remember to prioritize CS over it, if both CDs come up at the same time.
#2290SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Regarding the above SoC discussion. With all the deluge of haste on our gear, plus the storyline about blood knights getting in chummy with A'dal, I would be extremely surprised if the faction seals are not shared out. Seems like Blizzard is prepping all paladins for SoB.

And yes that 2h badge axe is second only to Apollyon for BEs. Although Cataclysm's Edge is only less than 1 dps below it (at least for me).
#2291SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Did a little spreadsheet twisting for SoB with the new items. As it stands now, the "best" gear in 2.4 for SoB should be the below (bar discovery of new even better items on later Sunwell bosses).

Crown of Anasterian, glyph of ferocity, relentless earthstorm diamond, 10 str
Pauldrons of Berserking, greater inscription, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit
Warharness of Reckless Fury, stats, 10 str, 2x 5 str/5 crit
Lightbringer Bands, brawn, 5 str/7 stam (first blue gem for metagem reqs)
Hard Khorium Battlefists, major strength, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit
Lightbringer Belt, 10 str
Felfury Legplates, nethercobra, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit, 5 str/7 stam (second blue gem for metagem reqs)
Lightbringer Boots, dexterity, 10 str
Cloak of Fiends, greater agility
Choker of Endless Nightmares (Hard Khorium Choker is nice but loses too much +hit, it's the most efficient piece to skip)
Stormrage Signet Ring
Hard Khorium Band
Shard of Contempt
Dragonspine Trophy (or Berserker's Call if you don't have DST - Crusade Card comes in third)
Libram of Avengement
Apolyon, the Soul Render, mongoose

Note that the above puts you at 8.7% hit with Precision. Depending on which theorycraft you believe, you need either 8.6% or 9% for bosses. If the latter, a 10 hit gem in some yellow slot should do the trick.
#2292SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Hi Veilyn.

I've been using the same as above for a while now, since I don't like extensive macros. Just remember to prioritize CS over it, if both CDs come up at the same time.
yeah, i'm a born slacker so only just got round to doing it. this macro is all about slacking :p but what you say about CS priority leads me to the next point.

dthere should be no need to button spam this macro. CS is the priority, button spam that one and make sure you catch your judge/reseal macro before the end of the swing timer (allow for lag). i rarely judge exactly when the judgement timer is exactly up because the swing timer and CS are the priority and Judgement can wait an extra 1-2 seconds if need be.

you shouldn't need to be trying to judge/seal before or one mili second after the CD is gone. judgeing, by comparison to active seal on swing and CS is just not as important. well, my opinion anyway..
#2293SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holtzhammer
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
yeah, i'm a born slacker so only just got round to doing it. this macro is all about slacking :p but what you say about CS priority leads me to the next point.

dthere should be no need to button spam this macro. CS is the priority, button spam that one and make sure you catch your judge/reseal macro before the end of the swing timer (allow for lag). i rarely judge exactly when the judgement timer is exactly up because the swing timer and CS are the priority and Judgement can wait an extra 1-2 seconds if need be.

you shouldn't need to be trying to judge/seal before or one mili second after the CD is gone. judgeing, by comparison to active seal on swing and CS is just not as important. well, my opinion anyway..
The whole point that they're trying to make is that they want to weave CS and Judgements into their damage cycle while maintaing 100% Seal uptime, and its extremely hard to do that, even with a face-mashing macro. "waiting 1-2 seconds" is wasted DPS for a spec trying to maximize it. Its the entire reason Sanc. Judgement exists.
#2294SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
sometimes, due to swing timer, CS and GCD, 100% judge cooldown usage is just not possible. 100% seal uptime is possible however. hence the point of this macro.

what i was saying is, if your judge cooldown comes when you're .5 seconds away from auto swing and 1.5 seconds away from CS. then it is best to let the auto swing happen, CS when the Cooldown comes and then judge/reseal.
if in this scenario you hit the judge/reseal right away in order to maintain maximum cooldowns on judges then you risk having 0 seal active at the auto swing (possible lag).
if you wait one second until after the auto swing and judge/reseal then the GCD from the reseal will delay your CS by half a second... all in all defeating the point of button mashing in the first place.
so you prioritise having active seal at the auto swing and the CS. let 1.5-2sec waste on your judge timer and then blam judge/reseal whilst the middle of your CS cooldown and easily inbetween swings..
#2295SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Blizzard seems to be taking the class changes for ret incredibly slowly. I could be that they've learned from the huge mistakes they made in the giant class review patches of Vanilia (where they would change entire playstyles of classes in a single patch), or it could simply be that they have no idea what direction they want to take the spec in right now. My bets lie on the first option. Its pretty clear from the removal of SD from the sets and the redesign of CS that we are moving towards the removal of spell damage from the ret tree. By introducing the changes gradually they are able to monitor just how much each thing is affected and more informed choices on future decisions from there.
It was a damage nerf, yet there was no community outcry because they didn't think it was one.

If there was a change that involved "CS now only does 90% weapon damage" (but with some other buff that increased overall damage), I bet the overall reaction would have been very different.


I think you're forgetting the first incarnation of the S3 ret armor (with spell damage, resilliance, and armor penetration) and just how terrible it was. Thanks to community feedback the set was redesigned, and though it may not be "perfect" in your books, it sure is better itemized than almost everything else we get. Generally I find simply that the general public on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about, and get a lot of misinformation (look at all the "2.3 sets are a nerf!" or "2.3.2 CS is a nerf!" or "2.4 sets are a nerf!" threads that pop up that are completely incorrect).
It wasn't terrible. For sustained full DPS spam (CS, JoC, SoC), S3v1 flat out did more damage than S3v2 on Leather+ targets. For cloth, S3v2 was *slightly* better BEFORE factoring in ArP (Which would add 1~% physical damage, more on a cloth target).

Then remember that cloth classes tend to have the most avoidance skills (fears, roots), reducing the damage contribution of auto-attack (which is the only thing that makes AP better than +dmg)

For controlled burst, 154~ +dmg will beat 83 Str.


With raid buffs + debuffs, maybe the balance goes back in favor of AP. But I don't get raid buffs/debuffs in 2v2 or 3v3 or BGs. Neither does the typical Ret paladin.



That I still have to explain this shows that perception trumps reality for community feedback. And yes, I know it's all moot now, but I don't like mis-representation of past changes.
#2296SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
The new CS was a damage buff in all respects. You almost never judge Crusader in PvP in any serious arena (because Justice/dispel are so much more important), so the repeated threads of "0% of 219 is 0" and such were complete misinformation. Raiding ret pallys, who actually do get the full effects of JotC, run with enough Attack Power that it was still a buff. This is just one example of a small sect of paladins who want ret to be a caster/SD based tree, which it is not (nor should ever be).

That 154 spell damage you're so in love with increased your JoC damage by a whopping 62. Seal of command was bumped up by 31. I just don't see how any of that can be justified as "more burst".

Assuming you're using a season 3 weapon (386-580 Dmg, 3.60 speed), that 83 Strength (166 AP with a typical 0/20/41 build) you gained will increase your white damage by 43, your SoC by 30, and your CS by 47. How again did the spell damage help do more damage? The only thing the SD does that Strength can't make up for is the (marginal) healing it gives.
#2297SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tekzor
On Leather in 2.4

I know that many paladins prefer to keep things in all plate; but with the new plate pieces slanted so heavily toward haste, how many of you SoC'ers are looking at the leather items? I added in leather and mail items to Bellator's spreadsheet, and the dps jumps are staggering. [note: I am also a LW for Drums, so I wanted to see if there were any crafting goodies too].

[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk] *LW BoE

and [Duplicitous Guise] if you need the hit in your gear setup versus [Crown of Anasterian].
#2298SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The new CS was a damage buff in all respects. You almost never judge Crusader in PvP in any serious arena (because Justice/dispel are so much more important), so the repeated threads of "0% of 219 is 0" and such were complete misinformation. Raiding ret pallys, who actually do get the full effects of JotC, run with enough Attack Power that it was still a buff. This is just one example of a small sect of paladins who want ret to be a caster/SD based tree, which it is not (nor should ever be).
I was talking about the S3 change that got patched by itself, even though it was not a damage buff at the time.


If S3v2 was such a great change, why did they need to revamp CS the next patch? They changed CS so that S3v2 could be considered a damage buff over S3v1.


As for "small sect of paladins who want Ret to be a caster/SD based tree", that's a dishonest characterization. I'm not saying that Ret mechanics should be completely +dmg based so that we're aiming for caster stats and caster items. I'm pointing out that Blizzard's old "solution" for a mana-based melee class (Str + SD) scaled all aspects of the class AND gave roughly the same damage.


If 2.4 fixes the "all aspect" scaling, I'll shut up. Until then, I'd rather have versatility over a marginal DPS gain.


That 154 spell damage you're so in love with increased your JoC damage by a whopping 62. Seal of command was bumped up by 31. I just don't see how any of that can be justified as "more burst".

Assuming you're using a season 3 weapon (386-580 Dmg, 3.60 speed), that 83 Strength (166 AP with a typical 0/20/41 build) you gained will increase your white damage by 43, your SoC by 30, and your CS by 47. How again did the spell damage help do more damage? The only thing the SD does that Strength can't make up for is the (marginal) healing it gives.
Looking at S3v1 vs. S3v2 alone

Sustained:
-66 damage on JoC (-8.3 DPS)
-1 damage on SoC (small enough difference to be ignored)
+42.7 damage on AA (11.9 DPS)
+39 - 61.6 = -22.47 damage on CS (-3.7 DPS)

Net gain: -0.1 DPS, pre-AC. (-1.7 DPS on 20% DR AC, -3.4 DPS on 40% DR AC)

Burst:
JoC, CS, AA: -46 damage (-62 damage on 20% DR AC, -79 damage on 40% DR AC)
JoC, CS, AA, HoW: -112 damage (-128 damage on 20% DR, -145 damage on 40% DR)

This ignores the S3 non-set item changes and the ArP (+1~% physical damage)


How about S3v2 + 110% CS vs. S3v1 + old CS?

Sustained:
Only difference here is 10% weapon damage. An S3 (T6) weapon would gain 48 damage. S1(T4) weapon gains 43 damage. CS gains 4~ damage from 166 AP (S3v1->S3v2), and 0.33 AP DPS.

Net damage gain? Using a S1/T4 weapon and 1400 AP, CS gains 80~ damage from AP + weapon but loses 61.6 damage SD, for a "whopping" 18 damage gain (3 DPS) pre-AC. If we use the S3 weapon (say 1600 AP), you gained a "whopping" 28 damage per CS (and break even everywhere else) before AC and ArP are factored.

Note that JotC, which "no one would use", adds 94 damage per JoC, which on it's own dwarfs the CS DPS gained by improving your weapon *two tiers*. (10 damage difference between S3 weapon + 200 AP CS vs. S1 weapon CS; gained < 2 DPS)


Burst:
JoC, CS, AA: 123 (S3v2) - 127 (S3v1) = -4 damage
JoC, CS, AA, HoW: 123 - 194 (S3v1) = -71 damage


If you're going to argue that the DPS losses were "so small that it doesn't matter", then the DPS gain from S3v2 is "so small that it doesn't matter" either. So why push in an insignificant change?


When comparing those damage numbers, also remember we're looking at pre-AC values in the majority of cases. I found the loss of +dmg very noticeable when fighting plate-wearers, because +dmg scales AC-ignoring damage much more than AP does.


And yes, the CS change is great for the top-end Ret paladins decked out in warrior gear and using a top-end weapon. Most everyone is below that gear point, and they use JotC occasionally (if it's not a rogue/druid, it does not need JoJ), use a non-T6 level weapon, and lost damage from the changes.
#2299SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Worrying about if SD was good or not is a moot point, Ret has permanently moved on to greener pastures.

Another buff to Ret is in the leveling field. In the past SotC (even without the 3% crit talent) was a worthwhile buff for leveling. Now that CS is weapon damage, assuming you didn't get the SotC 3% crit talents, it is very sub-par for leveling. Now just get get Warrior quest rewards/greens and you will do fine.
#2300SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CunningB
I think, looking at the way blizzard seem to be taking the Retribution Paladin, that and argument as to wether the spell damage removal is a buff or nurf is un-needed.

Look at the changes so far seems to imply they are moving Retribution Paladins away from spell damage reliance so sure your loosing a little damage in the short term but the longer term changes will mostly likely make that a moot point.

As for removing the spell damage from the Season gear, well you can always replace rings/cloaks/neck pieces/boots with other gear to cover the loss if you feel it hurts you that badly.
#2301SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Alleyra
Originally Posted by CunningB View Post
Look at the changes so far seems to imply they are moving Retribution Paladins away from spell damage reliance so sure your loosing a little damage in the short term but the longer term changes will mostly likely make that a moot point.
Based off the coming itemization for plate: Blizzard also appears to be moving Retribution Paladins away from Intellect. Let's hope it's a sign of good things to come.
#2302SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
For 150 badges... you too can have the 2nd best retadin weapon in the game to date. Although you may have to wait until your server finishes their sunwell offensive super town! Im quite stoked.. altho it'll be like opening my xmas presents early considering I'm still in T5 instances (we just downed kael \o/).

Source: MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies
#2303SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
For 150 badges... you too can have the 2nd best retadin weapon in the game to date. Although you may have to wait until your server finishes their sunwell offensive super town! Im quite stoked.. altho it'll be like opening my xmas presents early considering I'm still in T5 instances (we just downed kael \o/).

Source: MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies
Really didn't expect all that for badges!

Karazhan is back on the agenda.

The plate legs look amazing as well.
#2304SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I could be wrong, but I keep looking at that weapon and its still coming out below Torch for Alliance paladins. 3.50 base speed with another 3.36% haste, and more than 30 lower topend. No thanks.

Sadly Apolyon only seems to be better than Torch because of the sheer difference in ilvels between the two, its still terribly itemized from an Alliance perspective.

If we don't get SoB this is going to be a pretty depressing patch.
#2305SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
ariesz
I just plugged in the new Axe vs Torch in the spreadsheet with my ret gear and normal raid buffs and the Torch came out on top by 30DPS. So if you have access to BT loot dont waste the badges.

Last edited by ariesz : 02/19/08 at 1:48 AM.
#2306SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
I just plugged in the new Axe vs Torch in the spreadsheet with my ret gear and normal raid buffs and the Torch came out on top by 30DPS. So if you have access to BT loot dont waste the badges.
Really? Did you use SoB calculations? By all accounts, the badge axe is second only to Apolyon for SoB, and it's about as good as CE. Definitely better than Torch, just like CE is already.
#2307SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Pretty sure he entered the stats wrong or was using SoC to compare, by mistake. For my gear setup, Harbingers is 9dps higher than Torch, and around the same as Cata. It can't vary by THAT much.
#2308SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things.
I fully agree with you here, but unfortunately I see no other way to do it.

If only there was some way to give educated feedback (which has a chance to be read and considered by the devs) besides the spam fest that is the official forums, where "buff bubbl plz" is posted side to side with multi page mathematical breakdowns.
#2309SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Regarding the above SoC discussion. With all the deluge of haste on our gear, plus the storyline about blood knights getting in chummy with A'dal, I would be extremely surprised if the faction seals are not shared out. Seems like Blizzard is prepping all paladins for SoB.
This is something I have my fingers crossed for, but I've been around long enough (US beta *cough*) to not get my hopes up, or even expect the worst, despite everything pointing towards a logical change.



Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
If we don't get SoB this is going to be a pretty depressing patch.
Amen to that.


I've been doing some extensive thinking and weighing things up and down and I figured in order for me to consider "Ret fixed", it boils down to 3 Golden changes:


1. SoB vs SoC

This has to go. Give alliance SoB or upgrade SoC to be the ultimate ret Seal for all and to scale with haste.

There is no argument here, this cannot be overlooked if they want to fix ret. No other class/spec suffers from such an extreme faction imbalance as your MAIN spec-ability being different.


2. Spell mechanics

-Spelldamage: Spelldamage scaling has to be removed from SoC/JoC. JoC must scale with AP.

-Spellhit: Spellhit requirements have to be removed for JoC (and JoB?). This is a relic of utter ignorance and stubbornness/laziness... you tell me.

-Exorcism/Consecration: There has to be some way to make those scale with AP. Simply let them go off whatever you have more off (spelldamage or AP) so they don't break it for holy paladins/tanks. Scalability is what wow is based on, you can't just ignore half our spells.


3. Mana issues

This gains significant importance with the Sunwell gear since it seems we're being thrown into the same lump with warriors gear wise. That means we could very well be looking at 4k mana buffed.

Some way to "refresh our blue rage bar" based on hits or some sort of Str -> Mp5 mechanic or such should fix this.

This is especially the case for soloing, small instances (5-10 man) or PvP where you don't have raid buffs.
#2310SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Siral
Maybe it would be better for "pure" dps but i dont like the NO STATS items so still like more torch than harbringer
#2311SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gaffadin
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
-Spellhit: Spellhit requirements have to be removed for JoC (and JoB?). This is a relic of utter ignorance and stubbornness/laziness... you tell me.
JoB is already based on melee hit and cannot be fully resisted :/

It's yet another reason why SoB > SoC for raiding.
#2312SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Amphi
Originally Posted by Gaffadin View Post
JoB is already based on melee hit and cannot be fully resisted :/

It's yet another reason why SoB > SoC for raiding.
SoC gets a lot of partial resists atleast, very annoying!
#2313SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
Personally, I'm a fan of creating variety between the races and factions. I'd like to see SoC scale better with haste and AP, but leave SoB a little bit superior. As a trade-off, I'd like to see SoV buffed so its a little better for tanking than it is now.
#2314SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Siral View Post
Maybe it would be better for "pure" dps but i dont like the NO STATS items so still like more torch than harbringer
Oh, I agree in a way. The stamina loss especially is quite significant with the axe. And hopefully we will be downing Archimonde soon (already working on him), so I might get my hands on CE, which is roughly the same (even better with certain gear setups stacking ArP).
#2315SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Onacouch
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Personally, I'm a fan of creating variety between the races and factions. I'd like to see SoC scale better with haste and AP, but leave SoB a little bit superior. As a trade-off, I'd like to see SoV buffed so its a little better for tanking than it is now.
The only problem I see with this is that with the amount of spell damage I wear on bosses my DPS can go all out, especially if the target is undead/demon. I never use SoV for tanking, I just don't like relying that much on chance when it comes to raid tanking. I stick my guns solely to SoR and it does the job just fine, provided none of my openers get resisted DPS can pretty much open instantly and go all out with no worries.

It is true that if you weave between SoV and SoR you can generate more threat, but with the mechanics of SoV you're setting yourself up for disappointment unless you're OK with the slow 1h spell damage mace from lower city rep.

In other words: even if they did buff SoV the extra threat isn't needed, SoR does the job just fine. Through gear I have made SoV obsolete, but between SoC and SoB the same cannot be said.
#2316SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mearis
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Personally, I'm a fan of creating variety between the races and factions. I'd like to see SoC scale better with haste and AP, but leave SoB a little bit superior. As a trade-off, I'd like to see SoV buffed so its a little better for tanking than it is now.
how kind of you to sacrifice yourself to be the better race for retribution.
#2317SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SoraHime
Maybe I'm dumb, and simply can't understand what the dps cycle spreadsheet is saying, but looking at the dps cycle spreadsheet, but the best dps cycle seems to be-
Judge seal of Crusader as you're running to the target, then CS, then Seal of blood, then judge/CS when the cooldowns are up.

Is this correct, or is the best cycle is-

Judge seal of Crusader as you're running to the target, Seal of Blood, then CS?

Also, am I right assuming that if there's a half second left or something left on the CS cooldown and I can judge seal of blood, I should judge/renew instantly, then CS even though I will have let CS be up for .5 to 1 second due to latency?
#2318SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mithar
Forgive me for saying so, but the SoV and SoB difference at least makes sense. As someone mentioned a number of pages back, Blood Elf pallies are all about destruction and revenge at any cost, while Alliance pallies are much more noble defenders of the masses. Just read through the story lines.

Compare that to the priest racial spells. Thre is no reason why humans and dwarves get Desperate Prayer (which at rank 8 heals the caster for 1601-1887 with no mana cost and a 10 minute cool down) and the trolls get Shadowguard (which at rank 7 gives them a 3 charge shield that does 130 shadow dmg to things which attack the troll priest and costs 270 mana) and Hex of Weakness (which at rank 7 weakens the enemy reducing damage caused by 35 and effectiveness of healing by 20% with a mana cost of 295). Threre seems to be a bit more of a gap between these abilities then there is between Seal of Comand and Seal of Blood.

So if SoV is broken Blizzard should fix that. They shouldn't give away an ability which is based on plot when there are so many other abilities which were assigned randomly.
#2319SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Siral
SoV is the best tankadin seal
SoB is the best retribution seal

Every faction has advantages. However Seal of Command is a 3 years old ability that need revamp since the beginning of the game and also BE paladin need a new SoC to have alternatives
#2320SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Siral View Post
SoV is the best tankadin seal
SoB is the best retribution seal

Every faction has advantages. However Seal of Command is a 3 years old ability that need revamp since the beginning of the game and also BE paladin need a new SoC to have alternatives
No.

Seal of Blood is hands down the best seal in the game for retribution. There is no downside to using it (aside from gimmick fights where you can kill yourself).

Seal of Vengeance is terrible at high gear levels. Resists, lower damage as you gain more spell damage compared to SoR, and a non-gaurenteed proc chance with 9/10 tanking weapons (making you lose stacks if you try to weave and lower your TPS) make it a pretty awful tanking seal.

Unless SoV is made a 100% proc chance regardless of weapon speed or is made unresistable it will remain a very useless seal except for annoying rogues in PvP.

I'm all for lore, but something as drastically gamebreaking as SoB vs. SoC needs to be retconned. I don't care how they do it; just give the same seal to everyone, rename it Seal of Fury (lol) for alliance, whatever. There is no reason you should be vastly superior at retribution just because you rolled your paladin 2 years after me.
#2321SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
CunningB
Originally Posted by Mithar View Post
Forgive me for saying so, but the SoV and SoB difference at least makes sense. As someone mentioned a number of pages back, Blood Elf pallies are all about destruction and revenge at any cost, while Alliance pallies are much more noble defenders of the masses. Just read through the story lines.
Sorry to say this my friend but you need to read up on the lore in the up coming patch, you bloodelfs are about to repent and join the good guys, so either we get SoB or you loose it when you switch sides, as after all if your going good you couldnt possibly use such an evil seal.

Unless of course the seal isnt evil? i which case there is no reason for alliance not to have it

Last edited by CunningB : 02/19/08 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Second thought
#2322SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Liania
Would hardly call it going to the "good side".
#2323SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Merple
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I'm all for lore, but something as drastically gamebreaking as SoB vs. SoC needs to be retconned. I don't care how they do it; just give the same seal to everyone, rename it Seal of Fury (lol) for alliance, whatever. There is no reason you should be vastly superior at retribution just because you rolled your paladin 2 years after me.
Here's what confuses me.

They gave shamans to both sides. They gave their "faction spell" different names (Heroism/Bloodlust), but it does exactly the same thing, showing that while maintaining faction flavour, they want balanced factions. Both factions are balanced, everyone loves shamans.

They gave paladins to both sides. They give their "faction spell" different effects (SoV/SoB), resulting in a faction imbalance. They maintain that "faction flavour" is the reasoning behind it.

This is completely inconsistent. I'm horde. My wife's paladin benefits from the "good" seal, but it's still stupid.

Take SoV. Keep the name, make it exactly the same as SoB. You restore faction balance, you maintain consistency with your other "faction flavour" decisions, and you make a great step forward towards making Retribution raid-viable for everyone.
#2324SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gaveljockey
Originally Posted by Siral View Post
SoV is the best tankadin seal
SoB is the best retribution seal

Every faction has advantages. However Seal of Command is a 3 years old ability that need revamp since the beginning of the game and also BE paladin need a new SoC to have alternatives
1) SoV is not clearly the best tankadin seal for several reasons:
a) It limits your weapon choice to slow weapons.
b) It becomes less effective than SoR as spell damage increases.
c) It's proc is random, can be resisted.

SoV gives a THREAT advantage to paladins who have low spell damage. The risk here is that it has a chance to fall off, resulting in virtually no threat to the tank, especially as he now has little spell damage to fall back on to quickly regain threat and very little mana to work with. For a tank that is a very risky position to put your raid in.

2) SoB is clearly the best PvE retribution seal:
a) choices to more weapons (ie faster)
b) more base damage than SoC.
c) more stat benefits.
d) superior Judgement.
e) superior mana regen.
f) not random.

The biggest advantage with SoB is not just the damage advantage. It's the fact that SoB backlash damage can be turned into a mana regen advantage and Horde gain access to more weapons and more gear improvements than an alliance paladin has access too.

Priest racials do not make Horde SPs > Alliance SPs, nor do they "replace" any mainstream spells.
SoB makes Horde Ret > Alliance Ret. Which does not make it any more fair if SoV made Alliance Prot > Horde Prot. They are still two different talent trees.
#2325SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Also 90% of the new itemization is biased towards SoB, if SoC scaled at the same rate and Alliance was given proper itemization for it then it would be a different story. Blizzard atm either straight up doesn't understand how to itemize for SoC, is too lazy to bother, or out right doesn't give a damn about Alliance Ret Pallies. Take your pic they all suck.

To the gentleman making lore comments, I suggest you read your lore, the first paladins were Knights that were taught to make their attacks more powerful by harnessing the power of the light to augment their attacks. This is what Ret is meant to reflect no matter what faction you are from. Alliance Ret does not = less offense minded.
#2326SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khaelarys
Can you guys really still be arguing SoB vs. SoC?

Alliance - everyone gets it. Even the people saying "faction this, flavor this" know the math. I promise. Complain all you want to on the worthless class forums @ blizzard , but seriously - this discussion has gone well beyond ad naseum.

Blood elves - quit provoking this discussion. We gain absolutely no advantage in keeping this seal faction only. We aren't competing with alliance for raid slots - Just let the alliance complain about it and leave it be. It's not like we're clamoring to get Vengeance, and even if you're too dense to get the math that should tell you something.
#2327SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Meuble
Anyway, it's blizzard here. Lore's pretty much there only to be twisted around the way the devs need it. So I won't mind a random stupid RP excuse to give allys a competitive Seal. Because, sadly, it's what it's about today. SoB's optimal for ret, SoC ain't (and is quite far from it). This is too much imo. Of course, one could thing of priests racespells, but they hardly are THAT important pve-wise, except maybe for the sickness undeads SP use in raids (still, pvp-wise, nerf those godam allys priests!).

Either that or make SoV actually the best tanking seal. Wich is, from what I can hear, far from the truth. And considering that threat is hardly an issue for palatanks, I highly doubt this could be considered as being a "fair" solution.

Edit: Not sure that consecration only would be enough to make aggro tough! But yeah, more something like that.

Last edited by Meuble : 02/19/08 at 11:19 AM.
#2328SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Either that or make SoV actually the best tanking seal. Wich is, from what I can hear, far from the truth. And considering that threat is hardly an issue for palatanks, I highly doubt this could be considered as being a "fair" solution.
"While this seal is active, the paladin is filled with divine power, reducing all damage taken by 2(?)%"
#2329SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
I have seen here a number of posts mentioning "poor itemisation for SoC". I would like to say first off that:-

1) I totally agree there is an imbalance between SoB and SoC, and SoC needs changing.

However the more radical point i would like to make and discuss is:-

1) I believe the dps plate that has been shown to drop in SW25 is THE best itemised gear for a SoC paladin that Blizzard has produced yet. Let me explain why.

A) There is no Int/Mp5/SpDam. However this means no wasted stats. I know some paladins like Int on their gear but I think everyone agree with the changes to paladins and hopefully continual changes to retadins that the need for high mana pools should be moved away from, which they are doing here and not wasting itemisation points

B) The sockets are good (only 1 blue socket in total) and the socket bonuses are all good Str/Crit etc

C) There is very little hit on the gear. Paladins need some but not much and what they need can be easily achieved so not overdoing Hit as they have on other dps plate (badge loot that came with ZA) is a good thing.

Before i go on, would like to talk about itemisation brielfy. The stats that benefit a paladin in DPS terms are Str, AP, Crit, Agi, Haste, ArmPen. Now whilst it is not a hard and fast rule (there are exceptions) Blizzard:-
i) Does not like to put both Str/AP on the same gear
ii) Does not like to put both Crit/Agi on the same gear
iii) Does not like to put both Haste/ArmPen on the same gear.

Since Str>AP and Crit>Agi for a paladin, the best combinations of itemisation is therefore:-

Str+Crit+Haste
Or
Str+Crit+Arm Pen

(its uncertain at the present time which of Haste or Armor Pen is best)

Thus for my final point:-

D) All the plate drops have itemisation points split over Str,Crit & Haste or ArmPen

Now a lot of people saying that haste is a bad itemisation choice. However if they moved the haste into Str/Crit the extra Str/Crit gained would be a lot less than the Haste lost (we have already seen this in the reitemisation of SpDam-->Str). What this means for a SoC paladin is that if the haste was exchanged for Str we would see a decrease in Dps.

Thus in terms of itemisation the SW25 plate dps is itemised perfectly for both SoC and SoB builds

Now yes, SoB is getting more of an advantage than SoC from this itemisation but this isnt a result of bad itemisation, but a bad balance between SoC/SoB
#2330SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
oww, good point well made.

I'd also like to add, I am a Blood elf Paladin. I support my Alliance brothers in their fight for SoB or a change to SoC that makes it competitive. Unity is needed between us all.
#2331SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holtzhammer
Blizzard isnt putting haste on gear and saying "Oh, we know its going to make SoB better than SoC, because we absolutly love thoes damn belf retadins" they're putting haste on GENERALIZED Plate DPS gear without knowing that SoComm gains nothing from haste ( only that haste increases your AA damage, which is consequently where 50+% of our damage comes from...but I digress).

They're not sticking it to you(Alliance). they're just *trying*making gear that caters to Arms/Fury/Ret, and doing a pisspoor job at it. I guess they believe haste is the end-all, be-all stat (welcome to 2 patches ago, Blizzard.)

I suppose my mentality on the SoB/SoComm debate is that I dont want to see it go the way of other racials, once given away its nerfed to dirt and thus both sides suffer; I'd rather see SoV/SoComm fixed.

To thoes who are taking a side on SoB/SoComm you have to realize that there's a reason that SoComm is 70% Weapon/30% magical--Ret is still a Pvp tree (even though they've taken great strides to make it into a viable raiding tree as well) and that kind of burst from purely physical stats is/would be seriously damgerous; especially that much burst from a melee DPS class that ignores AC checks.

Anyone remember the 100% SoComm? there's a reason the version we use today exists.
#2332SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
You can't compare the 100% SoC to what we have today. That is like saying "When patch 2.0 came out Crusader Strike was incredibly powerful to the point of ruining PvP for anyone except paladins." Look at what happened there. Vanillia was an entirely different game than what we have now, and comparing the two is an exercise in foolishness.

Giving SoB to alliance does absolutely nothing to affect game balance. You don't use it in PvP 99 out of 100 times because of the recoil and lack of burst. All it does is even the playing field between the two factions in raiding. Why do people get so defensive about that?
#2333SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Strifen
So if they're going about changing the T6 set to be better suited for ret paladins then it would be just lovely if they went the full mile and changed the T6 4 piece set bonus. No one uses hammer of wrath in PVE. Something along the lines of 6% damage to all seals would be much more fitting.
#2334SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
So if they're going about changing the T6 set to be better suited for ret paladins then it would be just lovely if they went the full mile and changed the T6 4 piece set bonus. No one uses hammer of wrath in PVE. Something along the lines of 6% damage to all seals would be much more fitting.
Also (though I know this is irrelevant for many of you beyond my progression level), altering the 4T4 bonus to accommodate SoB would be nice. I don't have 4T4, but still.
#2335SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
SoB's optimal for ret, SoC ain't (and is quite far from it).
This is not entirely true. SoB only surpasses SoC at higher gear levels (say around t5 or so). When i was leveling, SoB was COMPLETE garbage, for example. And while I certainly do feel for my alliance counterparts in the coming patch, Blizzard doesn't balance the game entirely around endgame. SoC is also, at least IMO, better in most PvP situations, where the burst gets precedence over reliability.
#2336SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
You can't make a point comparing SoB with SoC. I'm quite sure that while leveling, SoV is complete garbage as well. The thing is, while we, at some point, get advantage of having SoB, a retpal ally will never benefit of SoV. It could be ok if it was the best tanking seal. It's not.
#2337SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
This is not entirely true. SoB only surpasses SoC at higher gear levels (say around t5 or so). When i was leveling, SoB was COMPLETE garbage, for example. And while I certainly do feel for my alliance counterparts in the coming patch, Blizzard doesn't balance the game entirely around endgame. SoC is also, at least IMO, better in most PvP situations, where the burst gets precedence over reliability.
Why do people keep bringing up PvP? If you're not going to use SoB in PvP anyway how does it unbalance anything by giving it to both factions? You BE's do have access to both for PvP anyway.

And even if "SoB only gets better after T5", everyone gets to run around in ilevel 141s in patch 2.4. As surprising as this may be, that is past T5 level. Being a Blood Elf will unequivocally make you better than me in the same gear, and only because you rolled that character 2 years after me. I'm still waiting for a real reason besides epeen lore why alliance shouldn't have SoB.

Seal of Blood affects one thing, endgame raiding retribution. Seal of Vengeance affects one thing, taking up room in a spell book. Stop trying to compare them.
#2338SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
how kind of you to sacrifice yourself to be the better race for retribution.
I play a 70 dwarf paladin as well, sorry that would've been a good detail to include.
#2339SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
I think you misunderstood me toaster. I didn't compare the abilities (or mean to, if you really feel I did). Here let me clarify:

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Seal of Blood affects one thing, endgame raiding retribution.
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Seal of Vengeance affects one thing, taking up room in a spell book.
This is how the majority of end-game paladins view these abilities. This is NOT how blizzard likely feels about these abilities regarding WHAT they affect and how well, but is probably right on the money for how much they affect in Blizzard's eyes. Hence, my point is good luck getting Blizzard to do something big on this, at least before WotLK.

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
And even if "SoB only gets better after T5", everyone gets to run around in ilevel 141s in patch 2.4.
And yes, people who have 150 spare badges being able to get a weapon better than one I killed a 25 man raid boss for 3 months before it dropped does make me cry. All of that gear is only 5 ilvls below T6...seriously I don't know why there is such a need to cater to the casuals.
#2340SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
And yes, people who have 150 spare badges being able to get a weapon better than one I killed a 25 man raid boss for 3 months before it dropped does make me cry. All of that gear is only 5 ilvls below T6...seriously I don't know why there is such a need to cater to the casuals.
there are lots of them, and if they feel distanced from high end raiders and disillusioned, they stop playing and cancel accounts.. that's why.. bugs me some to find that all my cool gear i earned through fighting for my place as a ret paladin in a 25 man raid can so easily be matched by some guys who go play a bit of kara each week..
that said, badges dropping from raid bosses is going to help me get my sets much quicker than them..
#2341SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
If you've already got your set, and have had it for 3 months, what does it really matter to you? It doesn't directly impact your gameplay, and it doesn't rob you of anything. At the very least, it sucks to be them because they don't get to go through BT and earn their gear, and they'll never be able to claim they did. Then again, if you're a person who has an alt, this is an easy way to get him up to gear and maybe sneak into raids, or even a way to get him PvP gear with the change to tokens.
[edit] I forgot to put the analogy I was going to use. It's like buying a brand new car at list price. A couple years go by and you see the same type of car on a lot for almost half what you paid for it brand new. Are you mad that someone else is getting the same car you bought for half as much money? You've already been driving the car for a few years, and you've gotten your use out of it. Sure you can be a bit resentful, but don't spend months bitching about it.
#2342SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Trying to nip this in the bud early, but can we try to avoid a derailment into the whole 'casual loot' topic. Yes this is a contentious issue right now, and one i also have a strong opinion on, but this thread is not the right area for such discussion.
#2343SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
you know DarKNecross, you're right. it shouldn't matter, and i'll try not to worry about it. and yeah, i guess this is good for my alts too
#2344SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Ok everyone step back and take 5.

Didn't want to unleash a whole SoB vs SoC discussion, the way I see it, there is no discussion really.

Lets get some things straight:

Blizzard created an incredibly varied yet competitive game.

There's casuals, there's leveling, there's pvp/arena, there's grinding, there's pve and there's high end raiding.


If we look at high end raiding, there is no other class/spec in game that has such a faction imbalance as ret paladins. Period.

There might have been some different racial abilities that you use every now and then (for priests) or slight racial stat advantages here and there (weapon expertise), but there is no such thing as having your main spell used for a spec be different.

This would be the same as saying: Hey alliance warriors, you're not getting MS, sorry, you can have devastate instead.

Or giving alliance mages frost bolt lower rank than horde mages.


Remember, we're talking a difference of up to 150-200 DPS in endgame gear.

And sorry to have to say this: If endgame gear or raiding does not describe you, then simply this argument doesn't effect you. Why argue about grinding or pvp or tier 4 when we're talking about the effect on endgame raiding in sunwell itemization?


Why this sudden outbreak? Because up till now you could minimize the gap through pure str/crit/spelldamage itemization. That does not exist anymore, the only way to upgrade is gear that has haste.

Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
Personally, I'm a fan of creating variety between the races and factions. I'd like to see SoC scale better with haste and AP, but leave SoB a little bit superior. As a trade-off, I'd like to see SoV buffed so its a little better for tanking than it is now.
Leave SoB superior? Based on what. I rolled my paladin feb 2005, I didn't have the choice "choose this faction for ultimate ret, choose this for tanking".

Create variety in side abilities, not in CORE spec carrying abilities.


Originally Posted by Mithar View Post
Forgive me for saying so, but the SoV and SoB difference at least makes sense. As someone mentioned a number of pages back, Blood Elf pallies are all about destruction and revenge at any cost, while Alliance pallies are much more noble defenders of the masses. Just read through the story lines.
Are you kidding me?

Call it Seal of Righteouss Might, or Seal of Uther's left nut for all I care, lore should never conflict with CORE mechanics.



Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Here's what confuses me.

They gave shamans to both sides. They gave their "faction spell" different names (Heroism/Bloodlust), but it does exactly the same thing, showing that while maintaining faction flavour, they want balanced factions. Both factions are balanced, everyone loves shamans.

They gave paladins to both sides. They give their "faction spell" different effects (SoV/SoB), resulting in a faction imbalance. They maintain that "faction flavour" is the reasoning behind it.

This is completely inconsistent.

You hit the nail on the head. They probably just didn't have the foresight to understand that it would be pretty game unbalancing at this point.

I still believe the original purpose of SoB was to be a grinding seal for holy belf paladins without SoC. Unfortunately, it turned out to be better than SoC for ret endgame.


Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I have seen here a number of posts mentioning "poor itemisation for SoC". I would like to say first off that:-
You're absolutely right, spreading out stats gives us more "bang for our buck" item level wise.

But, there were other things they could have added instead of haste. Like weapon expertise, hit, armor pen, all of which benefit SoC and SoB equally.

Haste just turns everything upside down (best stat for SoB, almost worst stat for SoC).




Really before someone replies to this, think a few moments. If you can find any logical argumentation against giving both SoB or making SoC superior, go ahead. Otherwise, lets agree that this is a problem that needs fixing and be done with this point.
#2345SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grayrest
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
There might have been some different racial abilities that you use every now and then (for priests) or slight racial stat advantages here and there (weapon expertise), but there is no such thing as having your main spell used for a spec be different.
I'll mention the fear ward. That was corrected and this should be as well, but it bears mentioning.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Really before someone replies to this, think a few moments. If you can find any logical argumentation against giving both SoB or making SoC superior, go ahead. Otherwise, lets agree that this is a problem that needs fixing and be done with this point.
SoC should not be made superior. The only thing that scales with every single physical dps stat is white damage. SoB is so good because it is essentially white damage (but ArPen doesn't help it) while SoC is not. If they make SoC superior it will still fall behind at some (perhaps unreachable) point unless Blizz reverses direction again and starts putting +dam on gear.
#2346SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by grayrest View Post
SoC should not be made superior. The only thing that scales with every single physical dps stat is white damage. SoB is so good because it is essentially white damage (but ArPen doesn't help it) while SoC is not. If they make SoC superior it will still fall behind at some (perhaps unreachable) point unless Blizz reverses direction again and starts putting +dam on gear.
Whatever, finding some way to make SoC the superior seal for all wouldn't be too hard. Increase the PPM, run some sims and see where it's better. Change what it gains from and by how much, change it to 80% weapon damage, as you see the options are countless, any dev with some free time can punch in a few numbers and see where it works without being overpowered.
#2347SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Onacouch
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
... SoB only surpasses SoC at higher gear levels (say around t5 or so) ...
It doesn't take much math to prove that 70% of your weapon damage on 44% of your swings will NEVER, EVER out perform 35% of your weapon damage on 100% of your swings.

Never mind every other factor of the SoB mechanic.
#2348SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
Or they could make an ambiguous "Seal of Sacrifice" the talented ability, and move Command to baseline.

Blood is just so incredibly synergistic for a pve role it's hard not to go on and on about it.
#2349SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Volrath50
I really don't think buffing Seal of Command would be the way to go about helping the Alliance. Even were it to do the same amount of damage as Blood, I'd still much rather use blood, because of the extreme randomness of Seal of Command. Seal of Blood really should be given to both factions, perhaps with a different name.

Anyway, I've recently gone ret and started raiding as such. I picked up a good deal of gear while protection, and have picked more up recently. The biggest annoyance I've so far had is dealing with my Libram slot. I'm using the crappy 20 damage to Crusader Strike libram because I've failed to get Libram of Avengement to drop. My bigger issue is finding anyone on Lightninghoof that wants to run heroic Blood Furnace, and when I have gotten a run together, the damn thing has failed to drop.
#2350SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Volrath50 View Post
I really don't think buffing Seal of Command would be the way to go about helping the Alliance. Even were it to do the same amount of damage as Blood, I'd still much rather use blood, because of the extreme randomness of Seal of Command. Seal of Blood really should be given to both factions, perhaps with a different name.

Anyway, I've recently gone ret and started raiding as such. I picked up a good deal of gear while protection, and have picked more up recently. The biggest annoyance I've so far had is dealing with my Libram slot. I'm using the crappy 20 damage to Crusader Strike libram because I've failed to get Libram of Avengement to drop. My bigger issue is finding anyone on Lightninghoof that wants to run heroic Blood Furnace, and when I have gotten a run together, the damn thing has failed to drop.
When I needed the libram, I simply pleaded, whined, and demanded a heroic BF run UP TO THE FIRST BOSS ONLY, each and every day. The first boss is quick to get to and easy to kill, and nobody runs BF on a regular basis so people aren't worried about getting locked out. It's far easier to find people willing to invest 20 minutes to run with you up to one boss than an entire heroic with a decent amount of trash and a 2nd boss event which brings back awful memories of when you ran it while undergeared.
#2351SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shikara
Side note - Anyone know if the "immune" procc from vindication still procs wisdom in 2.4 ?
#2352SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grayrest
Unless I missed it, there wasn't conclusive evidence that Vindication currently procs JoW on immune targets, just that it felt like it did. Theras was going to test it but wasn't able to find a suitable target for testing last I heard.

As for avengement, I did multiple runs with different guild groups when BF was the daily. Got it on the 6th run and third day of trying.
#2353SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
The one "test" we had for it involved a WWS where there were far more JoW procs than we had though possible at the time. We now know that SoC does proc JoW, so it is entirely possible that this was the reason for the discrepancies and not Vindication.

That being said, the PTR is the perfect place to test this. Respecs without consequence will allow someone to easily spec for Vindication and test it against a real boss level mob (kara anyone?).
#2354SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by grayrest View Post
Unless I missed it, there wasn't conclusive evidence that Vindication currently procs JoW on immune targets, just that it felt like it did. Theras was going to test it but wasn't able to find a suitable target for testing last I heard.
I don't think further testing is really necessary, as I am pretty convinced that Vindication is triggering Judgement of Wisdom. Otherwise I'm at a loss as to how I am consistently getting what appears to be a 75-80% JoW proc rate every week on Teron Gorefiend. I even assumed that every single offensive action I take could trigger Judgement of Wisdom when I state that figure (initial Consecration casts, SoC procs, Exorcisms, Judgements, Crusader Strikes, etc.).
#2355SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
how large of a sample set would i need for a JoW test?
#2356SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Onacouch
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
how large of a sample set would i need for a JoW test?
What are we testing for? The JoW proc rate or wheter or not vindication can proc JoW? I've gone 1000 swings in 2 sessions and both proved to be a ~50% proc, (It was a while ago, I know one was slightly over and one was slightly under). What's really interesting is that a JoW proc can for some reason proc Darkmoon Card: Vengeance. I swung 1000 times, ~500 JoW procs, and ~50 DMC:V procs.

I can't wait to get the new Stam/dodge on proc trinket, DMC:V can be a pain, especially when it procs on pulling Archimonde.

Last edited by Onacouch : 02/20/08 at 8:12 AM.
#2357SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
I was looking to test if Vindication would proc Judgement of Wisdom, figured I'd go to the blasted lands swing away for however long would be necessarry to get a decently accurate sample set. If the proc rate is higher than 50% than it must be Vindication procing it.
#2358SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Onacouch
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
I was looking to test if Vindication would proc Judgement of Wisdom, figured I'd go to the blasted lands swing away for however long would be necessarry to get a decently accurate sample set. If the proc rate is higher than 50% than it must be Vindication procing it.
I don't think it would take much testing. If you judge wisdom and auto-attack with no seal active and you see 2x +74 mana that's a pretty clear indication that vindication procced JoW.
#2359SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3warlockgod
That only shows that a successful Vindication can proc JoW, you'l have to find a mob immune to it to test if JoW procs from the immune messages, i.e. a boss.
#2360SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by warlockgod View Post
That only shows that a successful Vindication can proc JoW, you'l have to find a mob immune to it to test if JoW procs from the immune messages, i.e. a boss.
I've been trying to test this in Sunwell, however I've had to spec holy due to the obnoxious number of healers kalecgos requires. If I can manage to bring the ret copy of my character to Sunwell, I'll let you guys know!
#2361SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3guvnah
Does anyone have a Pawn Scale for Retribution?
#2362SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarkan-ZdC
Hey,

SoBlood was the Seal they got by enslaving a Naaru, right? The Naaru is no longer enslaved on PTR.

M'uru is Missing: What it may mean for the future of Warcraft lore - WOW Insider

After reading this.. The path is open for SoB for Alliance. Hope Blizz will walk it with us.
#2363SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tenryuu
I am currently using the Gauntlets of Martial Perfection and Headless Horseman's Helm. Currently I have enough Arena Points to buy the S3 gloves. Do I go ahead grab them or wait 2 to 3 weeks for the S3 Helm?
#2364SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by Tenryuu View Post
I am currently using the Gauntlets of Martial Perfection and Headless Horseman's Helm. Currently I have enough Arena Points to buy the S3 gloves. Do I go ahead grab them or wait 2 to 3 weeks for the S3 Helm?
I had the same dilemna. Bellator's spreadsheet showed a somewhat higher DPS gain for me to pick up the helm first, but on the other hand picking up the S3 gauntlets now will make your arena matches to get the helm that much better.

I bought the gauntlets.
#2365SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Tenryuu View Post
I am currently using the Gauntlets of Martial Perfection and Headless Horseman's Helm. Currently I have enough Arena Points to buy the S3 gloves. Do I go ahead grab them or wait 2 to 3 weeks for the S3 Helm?
I would get the S3 Gloves. I think they are the best gloves we can get in the game.
#2366SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tekzor
I'll be combat logging tonight again on PTR if someone want to take a look at the logfile and parse it. I would say; however, that JoW procs are insanely high for only WF, Autoswing, CS, Judgements, Exorcism--so I can only make the assumption that vindication does trigger JoW procs.
#2367SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ysabelle
Tier 6 pieces had big changes, tons of expertise for everyone.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ghtbringer.jpg

Looks even better, Weapon expertise is so hard to get atm.
#2368SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ghtbringer.jpg

The new 3 pieces of Tier 6 have been reitemized with this latest push. All the stamina was removed from the pieces. The haste is still there, along with some crit and bunches of strength. One of the most exiting things though is the inclusion of Expertise on the three pieces (78 expertise rating total). I must admit that it is pretty incredible, as it is possible to be expertise capped (as a human) wearing those three pieces of gear and using a Sword or Mace.

Still stuck with the terrible set bonus though.
#2369SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gaffadin
Anyone know what the expertise cap is off the top of their heads?

Not exactly something I've needed to worry about before.

Got a lot of casters in my guild crying over the lack of stam on their T6 now since they are stam-light to begin with.

I wonder if the existing 5 pieces of T6 have been changed/are going to be changed in light of this push on the new pieces...
#2370SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Well, they removed stamina from our new T6...and gave us expertise instead! While I'm not a fan of losing stamina, I think we got a decent stat trade and a small part of the stam loss can be made up with the other 2.4 items.

Edit: Ugh, too slow. I believe you need 90 expertise rating to negate 5.6% dodge.
#2371SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
The item designers basically made all the new T6 items best in slot for every class. If you're a Human with Sword/Mace, you're going to be sitting at -6.2% Dodged. Even without the expertise, the items are still best in slot.
#2372SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Expertise cap is 89.7 according to WoWwiki. Yeah, 90.

These new items are incredible, but I'm worried that the complete lack of stamina will make them less useful on fights with AoE damage (every fight). I wouldn't mind dumping a few crit and haste and expertise for a little bit of stamina (not enough to break PvP though, which is why the stamina was removed).
#2373SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gaffadin
Just did some rough calculations.

3.9 expertise rating = 1 expertise, and with a 5.6% dodge rate that means you need 22.4 total expertise (so likely 23).

23 x 3.9 = 89.7 so yes, it looks like 90 expertise rating is going to be your new fun number for 2.4, unless you are Human using a mace/sword in which case you will only need 71 (90 - (5 x 3.9)).

Last edited by Gaffadin : 02/20/08 at 6:27 PM.
#2374SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Just ran these staminaless pieces through the model, and the numbers they are producing compared to anything else in these slots now is incredible
#2375SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gaffadin
I'm having a bit of trouble nailing down the dodge rate on a boss. Some places say 5.6%, others (notably this thread on EJ) say 6.5%.
#2376SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ysabelle
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Just ran these staminaless pieces through the model, and the numbers they are producing compared to anything else in these slots now is incredible
Any chance of an updated spreadsheet with all the new badge loot and tier6 off pieces?
#2377SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grayson Carlyle
Originally Posted by Ysabelle View Post
Any chance of an updated spreadsheet with all the new badge loot and tier6 off pieces?
MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies

Latest update has new T6 stats. Scroll down a couple posts and it has all badge loot sorted by armor class with prices.
#2378SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle View Post
MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies

Latest update has new T6 stats. Scroll down a couple posts and it has all badge loot sorted by armor class with prices.
Ysabelle is referring to Bellator's dps spreadsheet.
#2379SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grayson Carlyle
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Ysabelle is referring to Bellator's dps spreadsheet.
Wow, sorry about that. I totally missed a word or something in her post. My apologies.
#2380SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
The other ramification of Expertise rating being added to the three Tier 6 pieces is that they completely nullify the [Shard of Contempt] as a DPS trinket. Of course, the next two best available trinkets are the Blackened Naaru Sliver (not yet dropped), and... a [Dragonspine Trophy].

And here I thought I could stop killing Gruul every week.
#2381SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
It depends exactly how high boss dodge rates are. If the commonly accepted 5.6% stands then the 3 pieces of T6 will easily fill almost all the expertise you could need (more than you need as a human). If the number presented in the rogue thread is the true dodge rate then you will need 103 Expertise rating to nullify dodges, or 25 more rating than T6 offers.

It does make it a lot less valuable, but if you absolutely need that cap then I'm sure its still viable. Unless of course there is more SWP gear with expertise (I haven't looked at the loot lists too closely so I'm not quite sure).
#2382SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
It depends exactly how high boss dodge rates are. If the commonly accepted 5.6% stands then the 3 pieces of T6 will easily fill almost all the expertise you could need (more than you need as a human). If the number presented in the rogue thread is the true dodge rate then you will need 103 Expertise rating to nullify dodges, or 25 more rating than T6 offers.

It does make it a lot less valuable, but if you absolutely need that cap then I'm sure its still viable. Unless of course there is more SWP gear with expertise (I haven't looked at the loot lists too closely so I'm not quite sure).
Even for non-humans and assuming a 103 expertise cap, I'm still getting the [Dragonspine Trophy] pulling out slightly ahead of the [Shard of Contempt]. For Humans it's no contest; the DST is vastly superior. Even an [Hourglass of the Unraveller] would be better. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great trinket for anybody who doesn't have access to Sunwell gear. However, I will, and it's rather disappointing that our best end game trinket will still be a rare drop from one of the most worthless 25 man bosses (second only to Magtheridon, though that's changing in 2.4).
#2383SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Wow, dumping the whole itemvalue reserved for Stam into damage stats (and expertise no less!) is a pretty radical move, I guess it's the sorta thing you'd expect they put at "end of TBC" itemization.

I'd assume you won't find any upgrades to T6 wrist/waist/feet for any class now expect in WotlK since it'd have to be at least 20 itemlevels higher just to break even DPS wise if it has stam (and there are no items that high in TBC afaik), similar to how good the relatively low item level [Belt of Blasting] (SSC recipe drop) was for casters all the way up to Hyjal and BT.


A DPS fanatic's dream and every raid leader's/healer's worst nightmare, you lose 100 stam by equipping these 3 pieces, meaning everyone in your raid (except tanks) will be running at ~1100 less HP.



Besides these items being already best in slot before that change, the extra expertise from the 3 items adds a shocking ~4.85% DPS increase to all your melee attacks simply put since you're previously dodged attacks will land, which is very hefty.



If I had to compare to our closest itemization relatives (Warriors and Enhancement Shammies), I'd say we got a better deal than warriors (who got mostly hit rating which is much easier to get instead of the coveted expertise) and a slighly worse deal than Enhancement Shammies.

Just a small nitpick, but I'd take their +52 int (~900 mana) on those 3 items over +25 crit rating (1.125% crit) ours give (if we assume the rest of the stats are equalish), itemvalue distribution logic says spreading out item value is better, very weird considering enhance shammies are never really mana starved especially compared to ret paladins.



Anyway, looking forward to having every single attack land from now on, no misses/dodges anymore

Last edited by Avitus : 02/21/08 at 1:36 AM.
#2384SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tekzor
Vindication causing JoW Procs?

Here is a 2 second portion of a combat log filtered down to my attacks, JoW, JoL, and what I think is the WF buff fading (unsure, so I left it in):

2/20 21:18:07.119  SWING_DAMAGE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,1765,1,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
2/20 21:18:07.479  SPELL_MISSED,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,26017,Vindication,0x2,IMMUNE
2/20 21:18:07.494  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27163,Judgement of Light,0x2,95,nil
2/20 21:18:07.494  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,20424,Seal of Command,0x2,1906,2,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil,nil
2/20 21:18:07.729  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,25584,Windfury Attack,0x8,BUFF
2/20 21:18:07.760  SPELL_MISSED,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,26017,Vindication,0x2,IMMUNE
2/20 21:18:07.776  SPELL_MISSED,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0xF13000613200286C,Brutallus,0x10a48,26017,Vindication,0x2,IMMUNE
2/20 21:18:07.791  SPELL_HEAL,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27163,Judgement of Light,0x2,95,nil
2/20 21:18:08.213  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:08.213  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:08.573  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:08.979  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
2/20 21:18:09.432  SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,0x000000000055BC7D,Tekzor,0x511,27165,Judgement of Wisdom,0x2,74,0
Given the timing of the procs and looking at similar events in my 100mb combat log from Brut tonight, I would draw the conclusion that Vindication can still cause JoW procs. I would be happy to provide a sample log for someone else to parse/confirm if they would like. I use stoneform and then holywrath to break up pulls and ease looking through the logs at the end of the night.
#2385SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Just ran these staminaless pieces through the model, and the numbers they are producing compared to anything else in these slots now is incredible
Do the gloves exceed [Hard Khorium Battlefists] now?
#2386SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
The t6 gloves drop from azgalor, the new pieces are bracers, belt, and boots. Not gloves._.
#2387SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Do the gloves exceed [Hard Khorium Battlefists] now?
Lightbringer gloves? Only the new T6 pieces were changed(belt/bracers/boots), so gloves remain unchanged and is below S3 gloves and the crafted gloves in 2.4
#2388SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trakor
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Even for non-humans and assuming a 103 expertise cap, I'm still getting the [Dragonspine Trophy] pulling out slightly ahead of the [Shard of Contempt]. For Humans it's no contest; the DST is vastly superior. Even an [Hourglass of the Unraveller] would be better. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great trinket for anybody who doesn't have access to Sunwell gear. However, I will, and it's rather disappointing that our best end game trinket will still be a rare drop from one of the most worthless 25 man bosses (second only to Magtheridon, though that's changing in 2.4).

For alliance pallies, I was under the impression that both [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and [Berserker's Call] were better than DST, simply because haste might not affect SoC ppm.

I've seen people here say that [Libram of Avengement] is better than [Libram of Divine Judgement]. Now that they are fixing Avengement in 2.4, is this still the case?
#2389SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
For alliance pallies, I was under the impression that both [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and [Berserker's Call] were better than DST, simply because haste might not affect SoC ppm.
The DPS spreadsheet already assumes it doesn't affect Seal of Command, and it's still better by a pretty significant margin - even if you assume only one trinket proc per minute.

Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
I've seen people here say that [Libram of Avengement] is better than [Libram of Divine Judgement]. Now that they are fixing Avengement in 2.4, is this still the case?
No. Once the Libram of Avengement is fixed, it will be strictly inferior for Seal of Command usage.
#2390SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Avengement was still fine(i.e. not fixed/nerfed) when I was on the PTR a couple of days back. Do you have any recent info regarding the change, or it's from the 'Known Bugs/Issues List' they posted a long time back?
#2391SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Liania
Noob question incoming but i keep hearing about a dps spreadsheet but i cant find it anywhere:s

So was wondering if some of you could point me in its direction :>
#2392SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
So was wondering if some of you could point me in its direction :>
page 1 item 1. previously i was worried that this might be an out of date link but it's not, they keep it updated.
#2393SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Habaka
Right, I figured I'd give my effort for the SoC Haste stuff and went to Blasted lands with my full haste gear...

Sinbelor - WWS

I understand it's not that long, since I went afk for some 4 hours and found myself dead when I came back :<

I did have JoL on when I left, so I dont really know what happened, but my combat log did show SoC's till I died, so I really dont know if it's worth anything, but there it is regardless... I had the following haste items on:

[The Savage's Choker]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Belt of Seething Fury]
[Band of Devastation]

So 196 haste in total
Edit: Right erm, thats 12.43% haste according to char sheet... 3.8 torch down to 3.38

Not that great with parsing and such, so if someone could have a look at it and make something out of it :>

Oh and erm, this was done on live servers

Last edited by Habaka : 02/21/08 at 11:57 AM.
#2394SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
Right, I figured I'd give my effort for the SoC Haste stuff and went to Blasted lands with my full haste gear...

Sinbelor - WWS

I understand it's not that long, since I went afk for some 4 hours and found myself dead when I came back :<

I did have JoL on when I left, so I dont really know what happened, but my combat log did show SoC's till I died, so I really dont know if it's worth anything, but there it is regardless... I had the following haste items on:

[The Savage's Choker]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Belt of Seething Fury]
[Band of Devastation]

So 196 haste in total
Edit: Right erm, thats 12.43% haste according to char sheet... 3.8 torch down to 3.38

Not that great with parsing and such, so if someone could have a look at it and make something out of it :>

Oh and erm, this was done on live servers
On a 3.8 speed weapon you would expect a 44.3% proc rate on Seal of Command.

On a 3.38 speed weapon you would expect a 39.4% proc rate on Seal of Command.

If I've done it correctly, you observed a 36.26% proc rate - if SoC scaled with haste you would have obtained 44.3%, if it didnt scale with haste you should have observed a 39.4% rate.

That said you need many more swings to prove anything! =D

I think the general conclusion is the SoC doesn't currently scale with Haste.
#2395SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
I was doing some thinking regarding this:



I would imagine a fury warrior or rogue would get more use out of it, but has anyone tried to model it in the spreadsheet? Assuming a sufficiently hasted weapon, I would imagine this trinket might be quite good. I'm just curious how good, and if we can even try to model it this early (since one hasn't dropped yet).

I suppose a lot of it matters if it procs off seal's, judgements, and vindication.
#2396SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
You can't model something without knowing the proc-rate. Also, the main factor is if the trinket has a hidden cooldown, or if it's PPM like Madness of the Betrayer. Furthermore, if after the proc, your next attack grants 44AP or the initial attack does. It's still best used for a fast-attacking player, like a Rogue, Fury Warrior, or Hunter.
#2397SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Have done a little modelling on Naaru Sliver taking account into different variables on proc rate / hidden cooldown, how it works etc etc. For a SoB paladin end game even when being stingy on the proc rate etc it is still coming out as a "top two" trinket with DST just ahead. For paladins, more rests on the AP bonus from it. It seems to be edging ahead of Berserkers call, but whether it will replace DST in the DST/Crusade combo is harder to tell without testing. Personally it's worth getting for bosses where Crusade not viable, or for the time when the +Dam portion of Crusade becomes useless. However as has been said, fury wwarriors / rogues will see more benfit from it.
#2398SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
For anyone who missed it :
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...-tanzanite.jpg

The heroic SV blue gem was changed/nerfed. So back to 5str/7sta for blue slots.
#2399SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
I'm considering picking up LW for 2.4 if nothing else is added to BS. The LW crafted chest and gloves turned out to be 6 dps and 7 hit more than the BS crafted chest and gloves when I played with the spreadsheet. The increase in hit is what attracts me along with being able to use Drums of Battle.
#2400SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Found this today and figured it was worth linking... I can't verify because I couldn't find the blue post in the thread they linked. Anyway, looks like alliance pallies get what they want, now i want the human racial in return :P

Ally get SoB

AGAIN, I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT IS AT ALL TRUE.
#2401SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 zeidrich
You didn't see the blue post, because there was no blue post. The post referred to in that article was: WoW Forums -> Read Between the lIne: 2.4 Alliance SoB

And it was posted by a player, who just was stating plainly that Alliance will get SoV because, hey, it makes sense. Which, while nice, is not at all a confirmation that any action will actually be taken.

It would have "made sense" for blizzard to distribute fear ward between factions at the release of TBC, but they didn't do it. There's a lot of changes that just "make sense" that haven't been implemented for various reasons. While 2.4 opens up lore excuses to give both factions the other's faction-based seal, that doesn't necessarily mean it will happen.
#2402SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Agonar
WoWInsider is a Blog, they give their opinions and open discussions on particular subject, nothing more nothing less.

Beside this, i hope you guys get SoB. Or that both Horde and Alliance get a new shared cross-faction seal that is tailored around AP and is affected by haste just like SoB.
#2403SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
You didn't see the blue post, because there was no blue post. The post referred to in that article was: WoW Forums -> Read Between the lIne: 2.4 Alliance SoB.
The sheer amount of misinformation in that thread makes me cringe. People saying that haste is terrible for alliance for starters (it is still a DPS increase stat, just not as much as for BE), saying that Seal of Command doesn't scale with attack power (read the tooltip, 70% of weapon damage), etcetera. Combined with the number of Horde Paladins who don't want alliance to have SoB because of various reasons (ranging from "lore" to "horde > alliance deal with it") and the number of alliance fanboys who think SoC is fine ("if you just use spell damage gear seal of command is perfect!") and I can understand why the devs hate our class forum so much.

One day someone needs to make a Retribution Bible and get it stickied up there.
#2404SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
Just grab the First 500, or The most relevant posts here, and transfer them. at 500 replies it gets locked and no one can spoil it.

or just have a sticky pointing to EJ or Cromfel's forums. While this may bring the dunderheads these forums are better regulated than the official ones.
#2405SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Back on topic, the latest build reitemized the new T6 pieces again.



Only 60 passive Expertise now (though that is still huge), which means if you're going by the Expertise cap proposed in the Rogue thread the [Shard of Contempt] fits almost perfectly for non-humans.

Still haven't fixed that damn bonus though. I'll have to bump up my thread on the WoW boards.
#2406SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
and the number of alliance fanboys who think SoC is fine ("if you just use spell damage gear seal of command is perfect!")
Tell me about it. On the french boards, we got a "ret"pal saying that "Ret is just fine, my raid's doing curator, and we down it before the 3rd enrage" (maybe it was the 4th?). And whenever there is AoE I go 1st thanks to my flask of Blinding Light".


... Anyway, not to look completly off topic, some MT's NPCs got a Seal of Wrath spell. "Adds holy dmg to any spell or attack" something like that. Of course it's an npc ability and so on, but considering how the devs are improving our whole class atm (yeah. Yeah, I mean that), I would tend to believe there'll be something for you in 2.4. I mean, with such a bunch of haste on the new t6, it would be a shame if they don't do anything about it.



Edit: Thanks for the new screens. It almost hurts to see stamina's back :'( My precious stats...
#2407SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Still haven't fixed that damn bonus though. I'll have to bump up my thread on the WoW boards.
I assume you mean the set bonus. Consider it a blessing in disguise. It means we don't need to be tied down to one of the inferior Black Temple T6 pieces once we're at the end of Sunwell, and can just wear the badass Warrior plate.

Edit: It's also looking like the [Shard of Contempt] is going to be roughly equal to a DST for Human Paladins - maybe slightly worse - if you assume a 45s internal cooldown plus five seconds.
#2408SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
It's not really being tied down, unless they release items that trump the new pieces of T6. Those 3 and an odd extra piece of T6 is going to get other classes their 4P, and it's not really gimping them (imagine losing a few SpellDam/sCrit for +5% Fireball damage - it's a pretty good trade-off).
#2409SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I would really like to see the 4-piece T6 bonus and the S3 glove bonus switch. I really don't want to be stuck wearing arena gear for just the bonus, especially with the new Blacksmithing gloves available, and I wouldn't mind having to simply hang on to my T6 shoulders for a while (just because they look that cool).
#2410SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I would really like to see the 4-piece T6 bonus and the S3 glove bonus switch. I really don't want to be stuck wearing arena gear for just the bonus, especially with the new Blacksmithing gloves available, and I wouldn't mind having to simply hang on to my T6 shoulders for a while (just because they look that cool).
Pretty big nerf for any of us not yet at T6 level. =(
#2411SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Pretty big nerf for any of us not yet at T6 level. =(
Notice your own wording: not yet When you get some T6 you'll be at least as disgruntled as those of us who look at the set bonus every day thinking "what's the point".


Don't touch S3 gloves (though 10% on hammer of wrath would help against every target that's ever escaped at 1-3% after you threw HoW at him in pvp... so it would make sense), but do something to T6x 4 set or it's a joke.


You gotta remember, for most classes the 4 set T6 bonus is just godlike.

Locks get 6% on their shadowbolts, that's 6% total damage for a shadowbolt spamming imp sac build and trust me around the bend all of our locks got T6 I did notice a huge change on damage meters.

For our set bonus to not just be bad, but simply "non existent" is ridiculous when you compare.

Last edited by Avitus : 02/22/08 at 8:40 PM.
#2412SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lopaka
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Found this today and figured it was worth linking... I can't verify because I couldn't find the blue post in the thread they linked. Anyway, looks like alliance pallies get what they want, now i want the human racial in return :P

Ally get SoB

AGAIN, I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT IS AT ALL TRUE.
Seal of Blood and Seal of Vengeance are faction seals, not racials, if they were racials, only one Alliance race would get them. However, since Draenai, Dwarves and Humans can use Seal of Vengeance, it can't possibly be a racial ability, can it?

Alliance getting SoB and Horde getting SoV (even if it's kind of weak) is faction balancing, and has nothing to do with racials.
#2413SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Habaka View Post
Right, I figured I'd give my effort for the SoC Haste stuff and went to Blasted lands with my full haste gear...

Sinbelor - WWS

I understand it's not that long, since I went afk for some 4 hours and found myself dead when I came back :<

I did have JoL on when I left, so I dont really know what happened, but my combat log did show SoC's till I died, so I really dont know if it's worth anything, but there it is regardless... I had the following haste items on:

[The Savage's Choker]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Belt of Seething Fury]
[Band of Devastation]

So 196 haste in total
Edit: Right erm, thats 12.43% haste according to char sheet... 3.8 torch down to 3.38

Not that great with parsing and such, so if someone could have a look at it and make something out of it :>

Oh and erm, this was done on live servers
The log shows three gains of SoC, which means it dropped during the test at more than one point.

Better luck next time.
#2414SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
On a 3.8 speed weapon you would expect a 44.3% proc rate on Seal of Command.

On a 3.38 speed weapon you would expect a 39.4% proc rate on Seal of Command.

If I've done it correctly, you observed a 36.26% proc rate - if SoC scaled with haste you would have obtained 44.3%, if it didnt scale with haste you should have observed a 39.4% rate.

That said you need many more swings to prove anything! =D

I think the general conclusion is the SoC doesn't currently scale with Haste.
First thing, check the data, second thing, read up on statistics and binomial distributions. If it wasn't for the data being borked that test would show 5 STDs awayfrom the value expected if haste did not effect SoC proc chance per swing, which would have proven statistical significance.

But now it didn't, cause the data is borked.
#2415SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
With all due respect Nex, unless you have something to offer other than rude comments please stay out of the topic. WoW forums are -------> that way.

Other than the change to [Hammer of the Naaru] (and it still pretty much sucks) there were no more reitemization changes in the latest push, including the two spell damage socket bonuses. Everyone who can needs to put in feedback reports on this so that we can actually get some decent bonuses. Hey, if our 4-piece does get fixed wouldn't it be nice to use a blue gem in the blue socket on the chest for our metas?
#2416SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Hey there Nex, welcome to the forum. I don't know why you're so valiant at defending SoC, but just as there is no 100% conclusive results to confirm that SoC does not gain from haste, there's none that confirm otherwise.

A crushing majority of admittedly non conclusive (small data sets) tests however point towards SoC not gaining from haste (going off the hasted speed and therefore gaining no ppm increase).

The only (equally non conclusive) test that says otherwise, is a link you had posted on the wow forums (WoW-Europe.com Forums -> The 2.4 reitemization, a poor 5 minute job.), which is some guy using procwatch and then stating: Here is a screenshot of my mod, it says it's 7.8 ppm (https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...891927&sid=1#9).

The two glaring flaws with that however is:

A. Sadly, I've used procwatch intensively way back (before WWS) and I'm very sure it can be misused to offer false results. Remember procwatch doesn't list how many times you parried, if he even had SoC up all the time etc.
Procwatch is flawed unless the test variables are controlled very carefully

B. Sample size. 1785 hits is way too little to narrow it down. Just because it somehow fits with his theory, does not by far mean it's actually conclusive with that amount of hits.

Moreover, on the last page of the very same thread you linked, someone posts a significantly more extensive test with 5237 hits and later 7709 hits over many hours, that both confirm SoC goes off the hasted speed (does not gain from haste). It even has WWS logs.

The only reason I don't take this test as a 100% conclusive result on the issue is because the WWS logs have unfortunately expired and I have to take his word that those were his results. Do the math on his results however, they both show a ~7ppm (or very slightly less).



Anyway, all that aside, even IF we assumed haste improved SoC and increased its ppm, it will STILL be roughly 100 DPS (according to the very fine spreadsheet) behind SoB when wearing the current best in best gear from Sunwell (which is the ultimate goal for every PvE ret paladin, yet unfortunately for alliance paladins heavily loaded with haste).

So it's a moot point really if "SoC gains from haste!" is to be used as an argument to not share the faction-only seals. It remains inferior by a large margin with the latest itemization even if one should assume it gained from haste for the sake of the argument.

This point especially reduces the whole discussion to a mere theoretical exercise, since its outcome has no real influence on the discussion ("Share Seals? Yay or nay."). The situation we're in won't change: Alliance ret paladins need SoB in order to be competitive to horde paladins in PvE, regardless if SoC scaled gains from haste or not.


Finally, it really doesn't affect horde paladins in any kind of way, I know I wouldn't be fussed if I rolled a belf if I had access to both seals, so why so fixed on proving it scales with haste?

Last edited by Avitus : 02/23/08 at 12:53 AM.
#2417SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shikara
Hey all, i've posted on the US paladin boards with a quick little proposition to realign our T6 set bonus. I realise its a somewhat excessive dps increase however my calculations were done hastily and with fleeting approximations and assumptions. Nevertheless i think its a step in the right direction. So head over, check it out and leave some constructive feedback (would be better in the thread as its easier to see and may gain the attention of the community/devs as a whole)

Also if someone wants to run more complex calculations on it i'd be very curious to see how they'd pan out.

Enjoy -

WoW Forums -> How to fix Ret Tier 6
#2418SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Points for trying to post a suggestion, but uhh... I'm sorry but that's really trying to bandage up the problem the wrong way.

4 set bonus that only works <20% as well as costing so much mana you won't have at that point... I'll echo one of the first posts "What's wrong with a % buff to Seal (and Judgement) damage"?

All other classes have a % modifier to their main attack for no additional mana cost that works on bosses from 100% - 0%.

My 2 cents.
#2419SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Playered
You realise instant cast spells still often reset the swing timer? Moonfire is an ample example of this, there are quite a few that dont, but its silly to assume being instant makes it so.
#2420SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3novasphere
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Points for trying to post a suggestion, but uhh... I'm sorry but that's really trying to bandage up the problem the wrong way.

4 set bonus that only works <20% as well as costing so much mana you won't have at that point... I'll echo one of the first posts "What's wrong with a % buff to Seal (and Judgement) damage"?

All other classes have a % modifier to their main attack for no additional mana cost that works on bosses from 100% - 0%.

My 2 cents.
Switch the S3 Gloves bonus with the Tier 6 4pc bonus! That's what I say.
#2421SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Just a quick update since i havent updated the paldin dps model in a while. Since there werent any mechanic changes (so far) in 2.4 I decided to give some of the backgroup database and coding a re-working which is taking longer than expected. Howver it means:-

1) All the current sunwell loot is now in as well as other loot missed previously
2) The Item Analysis has has a complete overhall with lots of new filters / goodies etc
3) There is an option to gem so that you get hit capped

Hopefully get the version out in the next few days
#2422SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
orkyben
Originally Posted by Nex_moongladeEU View Post
First thing, check the data, second thing, read up on statistics and binomial distributions. If it wasn't for the data being borked that test would show 5 STDs awayfrom the value expected if haste did not effect SoC proc chance per swing, which would have proven statistical significance.

But now it didn't, cause the data is borked.
Evidently you win the internet.

Originally Posted by Avitus
Notice your own wording: not yet When you get some T6 you'll be at least as disgruntled as those of us who look at the set bonus every day thinking "what's the point".


Don't touch S3 gloves (though 10% on hammer of wrath would help against every target that's ever escaped at 1-3% after you threw HoW at him in pvp... so it would make sense), but do something to T6x 4 set or it's a joke.


You gotta remember, for most classes the 4 set T6 bonus is just godlike.

Locks get 6% on their shadowbolts, that's 6% total damage for a shadowbolt spamming imp sac build and trust me around the bend all of our locks got T6 I did notice a huge change on damage meters.

For our set bonus to not just be bad, but simply "non existent" is ridiculous when you compare.
Oh I completely agree with you here. I think the S3 gloves should retain the same bonus, and the T6 Set Bonus needs to be even better. I wouldn't agree with "switching" the two current bonus'; this would have been a nerf for the majority of us.

Last edited by orkyben : 02/23/08 at 6:42 AM.
#2423SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
I would hate that switch too, considering how HoW tends to be useless in PvP "ok ok, I got him, I got him.... dammit miss!"
Switching those two would seriously hurt in pvp. I wouldn't mind getting something like feral droods.. CS now interupts for 3 seconds... But that's not likely to happen.

Quick edit about the suggestion: How doesn't need to be instant. Just make it castable while in movement, and we got ourselves a pretty decent pvp spell.
#2424SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3studderz
I was wondering want would be the best weapon enchant for PvE. Executioner or Mongoose.
#2425SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by studderz View Post
I was wondering want would be the best weapon enchant for PvE. Executioner or Mongoose.
You can try the search button or even reading this thread, since nobody is here to be your concierge d'information.

Regarding the 4P T6 bonus, the only change I've been able to think of is "increases the damage of your Seals and Judgements by 10%." I feel the 10% is in-line with other bonuses, considering Warlocks get a flat 6% DPS increase (assuming they're Demo, which almost every Warlock should be due to itemization), and Mages get 5% damage to ~90% of their damage.
#2426SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
studderz
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
You can try the search button or even reading this thread, since nobody is here to be your concierge d'information.

Regarding the 4P T6 bonus, the only change I've been able to think of is "increases the damage of your Seals and Judgements by 10%." I feel the 10% is in-line with other bonuses, considering Warlocks get a flat 6% DPS increase (assuming they're Demo, which almost every Warlock should be due to itemization), and Mages get 5% damage to ~90% of their damage.
i realize there over 90 pages, i read at least half of them and haven't came across, and a straight answer would be faster.

edit: found my answer from someone

Last edited by studderz : 02/23/08 at 12:04 PM.
#2427SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orcsgotbooty
Originally Posted by studderz View Post
i realize there over 90 pages, i read at least half of them and haven't came across, and a straight answer would be faster. ok carebear?
Theres no reason to be insulting to others in this thread because you can't be bothered to use the spreadsheet or read. I have just casually glanced at this thread 4-5 times and even I know this information from this thread. (I don't have a ret pally, and neither does my guild atm).
#2428SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by studderz View Post
i realize there over 90 pages, i read at least half of them and haven't came across, and a straight answer would be faster. ok carebear?
The quick answer is Mongoose, but there is a spreadsheet link on the front page for a reason. And I guarantee you didn't do the search, there's at least 5 pages of discussion on it. Please check more carefully next time!

Regarding a new 4pc bonus, I really like the idea of making HOW instant cast. Other ideas are +% CS dmg (like s3 gloves), +% seal dmg (as mentioned before), removing the mana cost of crusader strike, or some really sweet effect when you judge. I think lobbying for a 4pc bonus change is important for all of us to do, as it is one of the main things still wrong with end-game raiding. Every other class/spec uses 4pc t6 as their endgame, why should we have to be different?
#2429SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Sparkfist
Bringing up the macro discussion a few pages back.

I have done some testing with both :
/castsequence reset=10/target/combat Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike

and

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 6)

At a glance, the second one requires you to be more aware as you're using Crusader Strike ''manually'', and, in addition to that there's the already mentioned ''no seal'' problem when you judge too early by accident. Which might happen a few times during long fights.

The first ''automatic'' macro was mainly the reason I decided to post this. It seemed to be working fine during first few tests. Then I noticed that when it comes to judging and resealing, it's sometimes impossible to double-tap the macro to reseal before the next hit lands. Which wasn't an issue with the second macro, as it uses both spells instantly together, not sequentially (does it make it completely independent from swing timer?)

So with the castsequence macro you have to watch the swing timer pretty closely, because if you're nearing the next swing you might not have enough time to reapply the seal quickly enough, resulting in a potential proc loss.

I was wondering, if there's a way to somehow embed the simple judge-and-reseal macro into the longer sequence to avoid this ? Alternative methods/ideas are welcome.

Last edited by Sparkfist : 02/23/08 at 4:08 PM.
#2430SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Playered View Post
You realise instant cast spells still often reset the swing timer? Moonfire is an ample example of this, there are quite a few that dont, but its silly to assume being instant makes it so.
All paladin instants do not reset the swing timer. We have no reason to expect an instant HoW would break that exception. (Anymore than hunters need to time their Arcane Shots to not interrupt their auto-shot)


An instant cast HoW *would* be an interesting 4pc bonus, but it'd also make T6 indispensable for Arena. Ranged execute? Please!

The sustained DPS benefit for raids would be questionable since the mana efficiency scaling on HoW is poor.
#2431SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Instant HoW would reset the swing timer if it was made instant by a set bonus. Whether or not a spell resets the swing timer isn't actually related to it's cast time -- there's a few instants such as Moonfire that do reset it, and spells made instant with things like NS or Enh Shaman 2/5 T5 still do interrupt it. There's even spells with cast times that don't (Steady Shot).
#2432SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The sustained DPS benefit for raids would be questionable since the mana efficiency scaling on HoW is poor.
The mana efficiency and DPS of HoW are higher than Consecration by a very large margin, but because of the cast time the spell is.... shit (even with the bonus).

I reposted the thread I made a while ago about this very problem on the US Paladin boards (here). Bump it, critique it, go onto a level 14 human rogue alt and make fun of it, whatever.
#2433SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The mana efficiency and DPS of HoW are higher than Consecration by a very large margin, but because of the cast time the spell is.... shit (even with the bonus).

I reposted the thread I made a while ago about this very problem on the US Paladin boards (here). Bump it, critique it, go onto a level 14 human rogue alt and make fun of it, whatever.
Your numbers:
Fully raid buffed with every typical percentage modifier possible (Judgement of the Crusader, Sanctity Aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Vengeance x3, Crusade, 4-piece Tier 6 bonus), the following numbers can be obtained.

Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV)
Ideal Average Damage: 1161
Ideal DPS: 193.43
Ideal DPM: 2.64

Consecration (Rank VI)
Ideal Average Damage: 958
Ideal DPS: 119.76
Ideal DPM: 1.45
Consider downranking:
Consecration (Rank I)
120 mana
Base Damage: 64
Base DPS: 8
Base DPM: 0.53

JotC - assume no Vengeace etc/bonuses, but 95% bonus from JotC. (no downrank penalty)

Ideal Damage: 85 (base damage post modifiers) + 219*0.95 = 293
Ideal DPS: 36 damage
Ideal DPM: 2.44

Furthermore, R1 Consecrate gets 47% of +dmg per cast for 120 mana, while HoW gets 43% per cast for 440 mana. That's .39% DPM/+dmg versus 0.1~% DPM/+dmg. R1 Consecrate efficiency scales faster. (And is more efficient at the baseline if you don't have the T6 4pc set bonus)


Factoring in all the % bonuses, DPM scaling increases to 0.52% for R1 Cons., and .13% for R4 HoW.

For R1 Consecrate scaling to eliminate the DPM bonus of HoW, you need .2 / (0.52% - 0.13%) = 52 +dmg, and you don't have to wait until the target is at 20% hp. If it's an AE fight and your consecrate can hit more than 1 mob, even better.


EDIT: And if you have JoW, effective mana cost of R1 goes down to 120 - 37 (74 * 50%) = 83 mana per cast. That improves DPM by ~50%.
#2434SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Fiola, I'm comparing the two big "mana dump" abilities we have. As in "oh shit, the boss is at 15% and I have 4000 mana left, what do I do to convert this extra mana into damage so I run OOM right as the boss dies?". In other words, which spell maximizes your DPS by using every ounce of mana you have. Of course rank 1 consecration is more efficient than Hammer of Wrath, hell its more efficient than almost everything we can use. But that was not the point of my post at all.

EDIT: The entire conversation is about the Tier 6 bonus, so why wouldn't you include it?
#2435SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Samiel
Fully raid buffed with every typical percentage modifier possible (Judgement of the Crusader, Sanctity Aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Vengeance x3, Crusade, 4-piece Tier 6 bonus), the following numbers can be obtained.
She did include it, read the whole thread :p

But I think Fiola missed the point as well, about HoW being a shit! the mob is at 10% health and I have 100% Mana, how do I burn it the fastest I can and boost DPS at the same time?!

Consecration is better, since it does not reset swing Timer.

Unless you are able to without flaw time it so your HoW does not cause you to lose swing-time, of course.

Last edited by Samiel : 02/23/08 at 6:44 PM.
#2436SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Fiola, I'm comparing the two big "mana dump" abilities we have. As in "oh shit, the boss is at 15% and I have 4000 mana left, what do I do to convert this extra mana into damage so I run OOM right as the boss dies?". In other words, which spell maximizes your DPS by using every ounce of mana you have. Of course rank 1 consecration is more efficient than Hammer of Wrath, hell its more efficient than almost everything we can use. But that was not the point of my post at all.

EDIT: The entire conversation is about the Tier 6 bonus, so why wouldn't you include it?
If you have 4k mana left at the end of the fight, you could have been using R1 more often throughout the fight.


If you're already using R1, then you could have interweaved R4 Consecrates (95% of +dmg per cast). If you're using R4 the whole fight AND you still have 4k mana left near the end, then the fight is either very short or atypical (few fights give you unlimited mana).

The point about the T6 bonus was that without it, any level of gear with JotC would have R1 outperforming HoW in DPM. (and you can use any rank of consecrate from 100% to 0, whereas HoW has the 20% to 0 restriction)



Going back to HoW's DPS contribution:
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV)
Ideal Average Damage: 1161
Ideal DPS: 193.43
Ideal DPM: 2.64
Since HoW is only available for 20% of a fight, it's overall DPS contribution is, at best, 1/5 of its Ideal DPS.

HoW Overall DPS: 193.43 / 5 = 38.7

R1 Consecration Overall DPS (same as ideal DPS): 36



(This does add to your point about the 4pc bonus adding very little to overall DPS)

EDIT: We seem to agree about the usefulness of HoW for DPS. I just think HoW's efficiency (2.4~) is poor because I can get better DPM from CS, SoC, JoC, and R1 Consecrate, which are the "staple" DPS abilities.

Last edited by Fiola : 02/23/08 at 7:28 PM.
#2437SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Guys, look. HoW is a bad idea for PvE. Ok?

Whichever dev put that into the 4set T6 bonus had no idea what he was doing.

So lets please not waste more time trying to figure out how to unbend a broken idea.


Simplicity is king. Most classes get up to a flat 5-6% damage increase, I'd want something that's statistically the same: Increase Seal/Judgement damage by whatever would equal to 5-6% damage or increase CS damage.

Collision/synergy with the Vengeful gloves is their own problem. They could just as easily do it so "t6 set bonus and vengeful bonus don't stack" and only the greater effect is used if you wear both (which would be the T6 4set bonus since it would have to be equivalent to 5-6% total damage in order to be equal.).

In order for CS bonus to give 5-6% total damage you'd need to increase CS damage by ~25%, if you assume a damage breakdown of 20% CS damage of your total damage.
#2438SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Not every class has a setbonus like Warlocks/Mages. The rogue set only applies to Sinister Strike damage, and the Warrior set to MS/Bloodthirst (although I don't think you'll see many Fury warriors rocking 4pT6).
As far as Hammer of Wrath goes, instead of making it instant via a set bonus, why not just talent it? Improved Judgement is already a mediocre DPS talent, so why not add in -0.25/0.5sec to HoW cast time (and making it not reset the swing timer)?
#2439SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Not every class has a setbonus like Warlocks/Mages. The rogue set only applies to Sinister Strike damage, and the Warrior set to MS/Bloodthirst (although I don't think you'll see many Fury warriors rocking 4pT6).
As far as Hammer of Wrath goes, instead of making it instant via a set bonus, why not just talent it? Improved Judgement is already a mediocre DPS talent, so why not add in -0.25/0.5sec to HoW cast time (and making it not reset the swing timer)?
The rogue bonus applies to Sinister Strike, Backstab and Mutilate actually (and its 6% more damage, talk about hot).

In general, all of the 4 piece bonuses for Tier 6 provide a static percentage modifier to a main combat ability. The only exceptions are:

Resto Druids: 5% on Healing Touch (the only bonus as useless as the ret pally one)
Enhancement Shamans: Whenever you use Stormstrike you gain 70 attack power (Not a percentage modifier, but still useful)
Ret Paladins: 10% more HoW damage (as proven over and over again, completely useless)

To keep the bonus in line with almost every other set it would have to be some sort of modifier to seals, judgement, or CS. Since they already dumped the CS bonus onto the season 3 gloves I would assume the logical new bonus would be to increase damage done by Judgements by x%. It would make wearing more "paladin" gear viable in addition to making Judgement a much more desired spell to use at every cooldown.
#2440SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Sparkfist View Post
Bringing up the macro discussion a few pages back.

...

I was wondering, if there's a way to somehow embed the simple judge-and-reseal macro into the longer sequence to avoid this ? Alternative methods/ideas are welcome.

After trying tons of different macros, the best macro I could find was:

/cast Judgement
/castsequence reset=8/alt Seal of Command, Judgement
/startattack


This has the best of both worlds:

-You can mash it and it won't reseal too early and waste mana (similar to traditional castsequence macros)
-You can time it outside the GCD and it will insta judge and reseal in only 1 press (similar to traditional multi-line cast macros)
-You don't need to Seal up before you start using it. (Cast macros)

The alt modifier I put in in case it bugs out you can reset it.


I've also tried to embed [equipped:Shields] and [noequipped:Shields] to let it either use SoC or SoR, but for some reason that doesn't seem to work well within castsequences (only in "cast") and breaks, or requires you to switch shield and sword in and out to re-activate.

Also, personally I think putting CS into the macro to create a true "1 button macro" is always going to lead to collisions or problems somewhere, I'd rather have more versatility and use another button for CS.

The only reason to use a SoC/SoB macro in the first place is because Seal->Judge->Seal->Judge... is a retarded mechanic from the get go.

Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
As far as Hammer of Wrath goes, instead of making it instant via a set bonus, why not just talent it? Improved Judgement is already a mediocre DPS talent, so why not add in -0.25/0.5sec to HoW cast time (and making it not reset the swing timer)?
Repeat after me: HoW is not a pve DPS talent. It's a pvp talent.

I really fail to see the point of this. Even if HoW was instant, the mana drain would be too high to sustain and it would be only a mild advantage at <20%.

It would equally be pretty overpowered in PvP and cause lots of whining and subsequent nerfing "omg ranged execute! *cough* priests".

It's a lose-lose situation. Too mana intensive for PvE, too overpowered for PvP. HoW is fine as it is.

You do know most warriors have stopped using Execute <20% and just continue using their Slam rotation since it offers higher DPS?
#2441SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nhul
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
You do know most warriors have stopped using Execute <20% and just continue using their Slam rotation since it offers higher DPS?
NM. Didn't consider that the set bonus is the gear cap essentially as noted below! :p

Last edited by Nhul : 02/23/08 at 10:33 PM.
#2442SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Since they already dumped the CS bonus onto the season 3 gloves I would assume the logical new bonus would be to increase damage done by Judgements by x%. It would make wearing more "paladin" gear viable in addition to making Judgement a much more desired spell to use at every cooldown.
Well, Judgement is a very small contribution to our damage, it would have to be some incredibly hefty modifier.

If we assume Judgement = 10% total damage, it would have to increase Judgement damage by 50% to be in line with other 4 set T6 set bonuses.

Additionally, I think it's a bad idea unless they finally fix Judgements to gain from AP so it actually scales with our gear.


A modifier to increase Seal damage or both Seal and Judgement damage would make more sense. Hell, I don't see why they can't give us a CS damage bonus that simply doesn't stack with S3 gloves as mentioned earlier.




Anyway, to put things into perspective for people, here's a quick list of what other classes get at 4 set T6 (from Item sets - World of Warcraft ):


Malefic Raiment (Warlock):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Shadow Bolt and Incinerate abilities by 6%.

6% more total damage.


Tempest Regalia (Mage):

(4) Set: Increases the damage of your Fireball, Frostbolt, and Arcane Missiles abilities by 5%.

5% more total damage.


Onslaught Battlegear (Warrior):

(4) Set: Increases the damage of your Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst abilities by 5%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase, I'll gather some more info later. Definitely one of the lesser set bonuses.


Slayer's Armor (Rogue):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Mutilate, and Hemorrhage abilities by 6%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Gronnstalker's Armor (Hunter):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Steady Shot ability by 10%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Thunderheart Harness (Feral Druid):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Rip, Swipe, and Ferocious Bite abilities by 15%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Thunderheart Regalia (Balance Druid):

(4) Set: Increases the critical strike chance of your Starfire ability by 5%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Absolution Regalia (Shadow Priest):

(4) Set: Increases the damage from your Mind Blast ability by 10%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Skyshatter Regalia (Elemental Shaman):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Lightning Bolt ability by 5%.

->Also worth noting however, while most classes get ability/mana cost reduction or mana regen:

(2) Set: Whenever you have an air totem, an earth totem, a fire totem, and a water totem active at the same time, you gain 15 mana per 5 sec, 35 spell critical strike rating, and up to 45 spell damage. (lol!)

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.


Skyshatter Harness (Enhancement Shaman):

(4) Set: Whenever you use Stormstrike, you gain 70 attack power for 12 sec.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.




AND



Lightbringer Battlegear (Retribution Paladin):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Hammer of Wrath ability by 10%.

0% damage increase! HoW is never used and if used (at immense mana cost) leads to reduction of total damage!





This is just to illustrate, I hope to fill in the blanks about what each set bonus means as a total damage increase when I get more time (PM if you have more info) and will update this.

Last edited by Avitus : 02/23/08 at 9:14 PM.
#2443SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Nhul View Post
I believe that is only at the gear cap level. If your in T5 early T6 I do not believe that to be case. If I am wrong please link a source, I like to keep up on other melee rotations/functions. :]
And you get 4/5 T6 warrior DPS set at the gear cap level which this discussion is based on (set bonuses)
#2444SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
Gronnstalker's Armor (Hunter):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Steady Shot ability by 10%.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.
That is about a 6% increase to total damage for a BM Hunter, not sure how much it is for MM or Survival though.
#2445SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The rogue bonus applies to Sinister Strike, Backstab and Mutilate actually (and its 6% more damage, talk about hot).

In general, all of the 4 piece bonuses for Tier 6 provide a static percentage modifier to a main combat ability.
I realized what the bonuses applied to, but what I was them not all being as powerful as they are for Warlocks and Mages. Warlocks and Mages get a flat 6%/5% damage increase, whereas Rogues/Warriors get +6%/5% damage to about 20% of their overall damage.

Originally Posted by Avitus
You do know most warriors have stopped using Execute <20% and just continue using their Slam rotation since it offers higher DPS?
You realize you're comparing Execute and Hammer of Wrath even though, in PvE, Hammer of Wrath works more like Slam (without regard to the sub-20% clause)?
#2446SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Samiel
That is because Execute and Hammer of Wrath have the same Damage Potential Gap (20-0%)
#2447SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
You realize you're comparing Execute and Hammer of Wrath even though, in PvE, Hammer of Wrath works more like Slam (without regard to the sub-20% clause)?
Yet weaving in Slam increases damage significantly and is the basis of all endgame MS warrior damage (100%-0%).


Where as weaving in HoW (for 20%-0%) causes loss of damage plus an unsustainable mana drain and is therefore of no use at all.

Would it be made instacast, the mana cost would still be not sustainable and the damage benefit would be minimal at best on the grand scale of things (if one should assume you'd have enough mana to keep up your rotation + HoW spam <20%, which is definitely not the case).

As well as opening the flood gates to hell about the "HoW overpowered in PVP" issue.


I really fail to understand why you want to change HoW for the purpose of PvE, of all the things that could get fixing?


Why bog down on an issue that never was meant to be for PvE in the first place, so cumbersome to use due to the unsustainable mana drain and is irrelevant 80% of the fight?
#2448SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Samiel
HoW = PvP Tool and Solo PvE Humanoid Runner tool.

There is and should be no wish or want to justify it's inclusion on T6 4 Piece. It's not an ability we even use.

Last edited by Samiel : 02/23/08 at 11:17 PM.
#2449SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
I realized what the bonuses applied to, but what I was them not all being as powerful as they are for Warlocks and Mages. Warlocks and Mages get a flat 6%/5% damage increase, whereas Rogues/Warriors get +6%/5% damage to about 20% of their overall damage.
Oh, I misunderstood. You're entirely correct of course.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I really fail to understand why you want to change HoW for the purpose of PvE, of all the things that could get fixing?
Even as miserably inefficient as it is, Hammer of Wrath does provide the largest "bang for the buck" when the boss is nearing death (and is still more efficient than Rank VI Conseration, the only other viable alternative for a mana dump). Its overall DPS at <20% is much larger than Consecration (and with the additional bonus that it can crit and takes melee hit/crit it has even more going for it). It is the same idea as a mage spamming Arcane Blast: dump every ounce of mana you have into pure damage because anything you have left over is a waste. I really think the original design for the ability was centered around this idea: heavy mana cost, big damage, only when a foe is low on health.

Are there things that could use more attention? Of course. It really would be nice to get a viable finisher though as an alternative to our odd "single target AoE" thing we always have going on.
#2450SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mox
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Skyshatter Harness (Enhancement Shaman):

(4) Set: Whenever you use Stormstrike, you gain 70 attack power for 12 sec.

Missing damage breakdown info to gather total damage increase.

AND

Lightbringer Battlegear (Retribution Paladin):

(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Hammer of Wrath ability by 10%.

0% damage increase! HoW is never used and if used (at immense mana cost) leads to reduction of total damage!
I find it highly amusing that you compare the enhancement shaman tier 6 set to the retribution set, go look at how many shamans wear tier 6 set, maybe 1 in 10, maybe even less than that. You can't just compare set bonuses you have to look at the gear itself too, the shaman tier 6 is the biggest pile of junk ever made AND then it has god awful set bonuses (by the way the 4 set bonus is ~ passive 65 AP - a 2% AP buff at T6 level and the 2set has absolutely no value at all).

Considering you got a set that tailored to your needs, and aren't forced to wear leather... I'd say you are hardly doing bad.

Last edited by Mox : 02/24/08 at 11:06 AM.
#2451SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Considering you got a set that tailored to your needs, and aren't forced to wear leather... I'd say you are hardly doing bad.
Uhh....except we didn't get a set tailored to our needs. Do you understand why every Ret item/set in the game is being reitemized this patch?
#2452SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mearis
Shadowpriest 4 piece bonus is roughly 2-2.5 % damage increase.
#2453SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
Uhh....except we didn't get a set tailored to our needs. Do you understand why every Ret item/set in the game is being reitemized this patch?
Yes, I took into account your reitemisation in 2.4. Do you see other classes getting thier sets reviewed? Don't kick a gift horse in the mouth.
#2454SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Sparkfist View Post
Bringing up the macro discussion a few pages back.

I have done some testing with both :
/castsequence reset=10/target/combat Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike

and

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 6)

At a glance, the second one requires you to be more aware as you're using Crusader Strike ''manually'', and, in addition to that there's the already mentioned ''no seal'' problem when you judge too early by accident. Which might happen a few times during long fights.

The first ''automatic'' macro was mainly the reason I decided to post this. It seemed to be working fine during first few tests. Then I noticed that when it comes to judging and resealing, it's sometimes impossible to double-tap the macro to reseal before the next hit lands. Which wasn't an issue with the second macro, as it uses both spells instantly together, not sequentially (does it make it completely independent from swing timer?)

So with the castsequence macro you have to watch the swing timer pretty closely, because if you're nearing the next swing you might not have enough time to reapply the seal quickly enough, resulting in a potential proc loss.

I was wondering, if there's a way to somehow embed the simple judge-and-reseal macro into the longer sequence to avoid this ? Alternative methods/ideas are welcome.
Here are a few macros I have been playing with. First I start with this

/startattack
/cast Seal of the Crusader

next I use this macro to judge and reseal

/startattack
/castsequence reset=10/target/combat Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood

Now this seems to work well when we are fighting trash and switching targets and since I am not switching targets on teh boss, it keeps going through the sequence without a problem. I still need to do some more testing.
#2455SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Yes, I took into account your reitemisation in 2.4. Do you see other classes getting thier sets reviewed? Don't kick a gift horse in the mouth.
Please don't enter a thread assuming you know everything about Paladins mechanics and itemization. If it weren't for the 2pT6 bonus, we'd be wearing as much lower-class armor as you do. The 5 main pieces of T6 still aren't optimal, they're just less horrible than they used to be. I doubt you see any Paladins in full T6 come 2.4.
#2456SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Even after 2.4, only the T6 chest(among the 5 BT/Hyjal pieces) is best-in-slot for Blood Elves. The rest of the items are disappointing. So yeah, our case when it comes to T6 isn't so much better than enh shamans
#2457SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mox
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Please don't enter a thread assuming you know everything about Paladins mechanics and itemization. If it weren't for the 2pT6 bonus, we'd be wearing as much lower-class armor as you do. The 5 main pieces of T6 still aren't optimal, they're just less horrible than they used to be. I doubt you see any Paladins in full T6 come 2.4.
No assumption of paladin mechanics were made, or even needed in this instance. The last few pages were commenting on how poor the retribution set bonuses are, but you cannot justify how bad they are by comparing to other sets because each class is balanced differently - just cause 1 class requires a 5, 6 or 10% damage boost doesn't mean they all do or we'd all be running around 1 shotting people by that logic. Especially when theres worse sets than the retribrution one.

Oh and I doubt you'll see many people wearing full T6 in 2.4, sunwell gear is kinda better

Last edited by Mox : 02/24/08 at 11:16 AM.
#2458SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Oh and I doubt you'll see many people wearing full T6 in 2.4, sunwell gear is kinda better
The new T6 belt, boots and bracers are from Sunwell, and all count towards the T6 set bonus.

Many of these items are best in slot, so although you may not see many players with full T6 equipped, you will see a hell of a lot with the 4-piece bonus.
#2459SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Considering you got a set that tailored to your needs, and aren't forced to wear leather... I'd say you are hardly doing bad.
Technically speaking, much of leather gear you are wearing is best in slot for us as well. In fact, the best shoulders in the game at the moment are leather shoulders off Hydross, and you are wearing the best helm and chest.

Many of us CHOOSE to not wear leather because of the various hybrid roles we play in raids; some may offtank hyjal trash, others may not have those pieces drop often enough and choose to pass them to "primary" dpsers; and still others simply prefer wearing plate so that when a boss or trash mob cleaves/whirlwinds, we have a chance to stay alive. Pick your poison... you do not have to wear that gear either.

That being said, I have to say I'm fairly dissapointed in you, Mox. The purpose is not to win a QQ war to get items changed, but rather to fix what has been wrong with our class in PvE. Shaman already got that fix, as you might recall. They gave you a talent that coverts AP to spell damage to cover your hybrid stats... we still have nothing of the sort. In other words, your class has finished its overhaul, ours is still in progress. Rather than try to shut us up, allow us to voice the overarching problems of our class before it falls upon deaf ears at Blizzard.
#2460SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
Yes, I took into account your reitemisation in 2.4. Do you see other classes getting thier sets reviewed? Don't kick a gift horse in the mouth.
Even after the reitemization we only will wear 2 pieces of BT/Hyjal T6 for the bonus, or after we move into SWP we will only wear those three pieces. Just like your class, the random epics lying around BT are much better for our DPS than the craptastic tier sets.

Originally Posted by Mox View Post
No assumption of paladin mechanics were made, or even needed in this instance. The last few pages were commenting on how poor the retribution set bonuses are, but you cannot justify how bad they are by comparing to other sets because each class is balanced differently - just cause 1 class requires a 5, 6 or 10% damage boost doesn't mean they all do or we'd all be running around 1 shotting people by that logic. Especially when theres worse sets than the retribrution one.
Just stop. No tier gear is ideal for any class or spec (the only reason you wear it is for bonuses, dur). It just so happens that ret paladin tier gear is so terrible that we require a full reitemization. This is the retribution paladin thread, not the enhancement shaman thread, so I really couldn't give less of a shit about your tier problems. WoW Forums ------> that way.

The point remains, your bonuses apply to an ability that you use. Whether you choose to wear them or not is based on the item quality, not the bonus. Our 4-piece bonus (like a resto druid) applies to an ability that we can not use. I'll say it one more time, we can not use Hammer of Wrath in a raid without losing DPS. So we're stuck looking at very sub-par gear with an absolutely worthless bonus. Apples and Oranges.
#2461SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bellator
Paladin DPS Model V33 (patch 2.4)

Hi Guys, here is the latest version of the model. Worth spending a couple of minutes reading the changes:-


jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com


Let me know if there any bugs etc, and if you spot any errors in items etc.



Notes & Changes

Bugs:-

Shadowmoon destroyer cloak is currently set to filter under Tempest Keep loot, not Black Temple. Will be fixed in next version. You can manually change this by unhiding Sheet "DPS" and changing cell E420 to "Black Temple".



User Added Items:-


This currently does not work so has been hidden. Will be working in a later version.


Database Changes:-


The database has had a massive overhaul to allow for extra filtering. It also contains a load of new items, with about 30% more than the last version(now currently showing 475 items, up from 369. Here is a summary of what it now contains:-

Plate - All Epic plate, all Rare plate of ilvl 115, PVP gear, and craftable gear
Mail & Leather - all Epic mail exluding PVP gear. On a craftable side contains the mail chest equivalent to the plate one, and all craftables from raiding instances (ilvl 128+). Does not have the set craftables around the 115 level.
Rings, necks etc - All Epic rings and all Rare plate of ilvl 115, PVP gear and craftable gear
The selection of enchants/gems is the same (may be updated in later version)

Character Sheet:-

Not much has changed (apart from some bugs removed). There is a new gem socketing method called "Hit Cap Gems". This now ensures that after gemming you are hit capped. It tries it's best to socket git gems in the right colour sockert, then str in the rest. It is much better than the "Socket Str" gem, though it does not always socket perfectly to ensure the maximum about of socket bonuses are attained. To do this would require a much more complex code which would slow down the item analysis calculation sheet an awful lot which is not worth it as any loss of dps from this code is minimal at most.

Item Analysis Sheet:-

This sheet has has a complete re-working:-

When the "Analyse Items" button is clicked, for each slot, it produces a nice table showing the item you have (highlighted) and all items you are comparing it to in terms of the dps change. Items both better and worse than yours are shown ordered worst to best. In addition it shows the armour type (plate/mail/leather), their rareity (Epic/Rare), the Item level, and the location of the item.

(Just click the damn button to get a better understanding :p)

On the right is the "Options Panel", including:-

1) "Only Show Upgrades" -You can toggle this option show that it shows either items both better and worst or just better items
2) "Only Show Name and Dps Difference" - this stops the analyis showing all the additional information of upgrades
3) "Show Loot of Rareity" - Toggles Epic/Rare loot on/off
4) "Show Loot of Armour Type" - Toggles Leather/Mail/Plate/Nonarmour(rings etc) on off
5) "Show Loot From" - Toggles the locations of different loot on off

The KEY thing to note, is that since the item database is so large and with the addedd functionality, the more options you have toggled on the longer the analysis will take.

Last edited by bellator : 02/24/08 at 2:14 PM.
#2462SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Bellator for President! Thanks man, much appreciated.
#2463SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3weco
The new upgrade analysis is great! The one bug I noticed is that it still shows Black Temple and Sunwell loot for cloaks even if you marked them with a 'no' under the filter.
#2464SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
Bellator for President! Thanks man, much appreciated.
Thanks, and no problem

Originally Posted by weco View Post
The new upgrade analysis is great! The one bug I noticed is that it still shows Black Temple and Sunwell loot for cloaks even if you marked them with a 'no' under the filter.
Thanks, glad you like it.

Just noticed that "ShadowMoon destroyer Cloak" has it's filter set as "Tempest Keep" not "Black Temple" which is what caused this problem. Will be Fixed in the next version. You can manually change this by unhiding Sheet "DPS" and changing cell E420 to "Black Temple".

What sunwell cloak do you mean though?
#2465SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Abbichum
Hi

So, im in the process of lvling a retri pala. im going to outlands in the not too far future and was wondering wether to gun for the pala quest rewards or the more warr itemized ones? i know most "pala" rewards will be reitemized, but even then, i see most of the spelldamage converted to straight str and lots of int/mp5. i like the looks of str/agi/sta more tbh, but wanted to check with you guys first
#2466SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurm
nvm

Last edited by Zurm : 02/24/08 at 2:44 PM.
#2467SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
The first thing I noticed using the new version of the spreadsheet is how much better the leather ArPen gear is compared to the plate Haste gear when using SoC. Switching to SoB, all those plate items show up ahead of the leather. Trying to compete with Rogues for gear will suck.

[edit] For some reason, Shivering Felspine is beating Apolyon for Seal of Blood.
#2468SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Hm, its not for me on mine...
#2469SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Great Work Bellator! I like the new Gear Comparison sheet =D

Now all I need is the 7 drops from SSC and Im all set for T6 instances with best of gear... (well apart from 2.4 uber expensive badge loot =P)
#2470SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Abbichum View Post
pala quest rewards or the more warr itemized ones?
Mostly Warrior gear, but finding plate/mail with mp5 and some spell damage is a good thing for one or two pieces. The quest rewards look unchanged for now, but some dungeon drops and a few 70 quest rewards have a lot spell damage and it has turned into strength.

Note the patch is over a month away, and just changing spell damage into more strength doesn't help the items much (no agility on them).
#2471SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bellator
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
For some reason, Shivering Felspine is beating Apolyon for Seal of Blood.

This surprises me. What gear sec up were you using for this analysis, as using tier6/7 gear i've been unable to get the Felspine to output Apolyon for either SoC/SoB.


Originally Posted by Abbichum View Post
Hi

So, im in the process of lvling a retri pala. im going to outlands in the not too far future and was wondering wether to gun for the pala quest rewards or the more warr itemized ones? i know most "pala" rewards will be reitemized, but even then, i see most of the spelldamage converted to straight str and lots of int/mp5. i like the looks of str/agi/sta more tbh, but wanted to check with you guys first
Personally i'd go for warrior gear, but in levelling terms i wouldnt worry too much. Any gear you get will we replace when you hit 70, and the effect on levelling time whichever way you go will be minimal.

....ps, good choice of server...twilights hammer ftw

Last edited by bellator : 02/24/08 at 6:19 PM.
#2472SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
gerine
Long time reader, first time poster.
First off, Bellator, Thanks for all the work on the ss.

I just grabbed the latest one (v33) and I am having some odd behavior on the item analysis. With the old ss, my current gear was either best or second best in slot accross the board for t5. With the new analysis, many items from heroics, kara, and such are showing up as upgrades for me. For example, the original [Gladiator's Scaled Legguards] are showing as an upgrade to my [Greaves of the Bloodwarder], the Glad and Merc Glad helm are both showing as upgrades to my Veng helm. Even the [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] are coming up as a 3.3 dps downgrade from [Gauntlets of Martial Perfection]. Any ideas? Thanks

Last edited by gerine : 02/24/08 at 7:20 PM.
#2473SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Same, rather weird behaviour, lots of items that were before downgrades are now considered better.
Also, Bellator, the current food is considered as both 20 str and 40 ap, can't confirm it but I think both are calced towards total dps. Adding +20 hit food would be nice too.
#2474SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bellator
Gerine, Kris,

This may sound like a completely dumb thing, but are you certain that you are actually seeing downgraded items as upgrades. The analysis tool now shows items which are better and worse than your current gear. The items that are worse are shown as "-x dps". Are you sure you havent just seen the downgraded item in the list and thought it was showing an upgrade.

I know that may sound really dumb, but Gerine, for the examples you are givning me I have been unable to replicate the output analysis showing these things with different gear sets.

Apart from the new gemming system (using the ensure hit capped then str gems method) there are no fundamental changes to the calculations. The gemming system might cause a few rank changes when it comes to items with lots of +hit etc, but there is no reason why for example Gladiator's Scaled Legguards are showing as better than Greaves of the Bloodwarder as there is no way the 21 Int can ever provide more dps than 3 gem sockets 9 crit and 1 str. It's just impossible.

Kris, with regards the food, whilst on the sheet it lists food as 20str and 40 AP, it's not doubling up as the 20 str listed. The strength isnt being converted to AP again later on. I will however get the +20hit food added.


Edit:-

As a quick follow on, the screenshow below shows how items are now being analysed. It shows an example of the Felsteel Warhelm being compared to other items in the game. The Felsteel Warhelm (the one equipped) is highlighted in yellow. All items above that are worse than that item (the dps diff being negative). All items below better (the dps diff being positive).

Again apologies is this is completely obvious and unnecessary, but this strange behaviour you mentioned has me baffled.


Last edited by bellator : 02/24/08 at 9:48 PM.
#2475SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ysabelle
<3<3<3<3<3 The spreadsheet.

Its nice seeing so many new upgrades again, its like a shopping list.
I really wish that felspine was the best upgrade, I love pole arm animations on my belf, but I got a feeling the hunters wouldn't be too happy with me after that if I was also getting an Apolyon later.

Still noticing a bug when I analyze, all my gems get replaced with 10str and I have to reload my gear set every time.
#2476SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Rasputin
I really enjoy the changes to the spreadsheet so far, but it does seem to be giving me some odd results under item analysis. For example, I put in my current gear and I get results like the [Grips of Silent Justice] being superior to the [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets], or [Girdle of the Endless Pit] being superior to [Red Belt of Battle], or [Band of the Eternal Champion] being superior to [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]. Are these results due to some change in calculation methods in the new version? These results don't match those of previous versions, so I'm curious if it's due to a refinement in calculations or something else.

Edit: I re-ran analysis and got results more closely in line to what I was expecting. It seems like pressing any key while the calculation is running will cause errors, including alt-tabbing away from the spreadsheet. Sometimes it will cause all results to be the exact same result(such as all items being -6.95 DPS from all slots).

Last edited by Rasputin : 02/24/08 at 9:50 PM. Reason: updating
#2477SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Mox View Post
I find it highly amusing that you compare the enhancement shaman tier 6 set
Shh dumbass, if you notice I listed "all" dps sets of all classes. Your set bonus might also be one of the worst, but at least it's not as non-existent as ours.

Whether you choose to wear it or not is irrelevant really.

Keep in mind the new T6 belt/wrist/boots. Are you sure you're not going to wear 1 piece of your old T6 to get the set bonus?

I know the majority of dps classes will, except ret paladins. And if you won't, why make your class which is the exception to the rule the reason our class set bonus shouldn't get fixed?

The simple fact the set bonus exists is an insult really (devs had no idea what they're doing), it's probably of the same "wtf value" as if they had put "increases ghost wolf melee damage by 5%" on your enhancement set.



Anyway, don't bother with Moxye, he's just bored and likes to feed off other peoples drama :P

Last edited by Avitus : 02/24/08 at 11:28 PM.
#2478SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Oh btw, grats on 100 pages, I remember looking at this forum and wondering when there'd ever be a ret dps thread


Bellator love the new spreadsheet, especially the upgraded item analysis, great work as always

Any chance we can get race selection implemented at some point (mainly for human racial going towards the expertise cap).
#2479SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
While we're still discussing the spreadsheet, how hard would it be to implement an "import from armory" functionality, Bellator? Probably you could reuse some of the code written in the Hunter/Rogue spreadsheets for that mechanism.
#2480SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dannethkilm
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Oh, I misunderstood. You're entirely correct of course.



Even as miserably inefficient as it is, Hammer of Wrath does provide the largest "bang for the buck" when the boss is nearing death (and is still more efficient than Rank VI Conseration, the only other viable alternative for a mana dump). Its overall DPS at <20% is much larger than Consecration (and with the additional bonus that it can crit and takes melee hit/crit it has even more going for it). It is the same idea as a mage spamming Arcane Blast: dump every ounce of mana you have into pure damage because anything you have left over is a waste. I really think the original design for the ability was centered around this idea: heavy mana cost, big damage, only when a foe is low on health.

Are there things that could use more attention? Of course. It really would be nice to get a viable finisher though as an alternative to our odd "single target AoE" thing we always have going on.
Hammer of Wrath is too situational. The only times I use it are during:
A'lar fights
Kethalas - floating in the air, keeping your space, throw hammers.
Supremus - get punted, throw a hammer
Things that charge randomly

I personally like the holy hammer of death idea, but its too situational to be put into a set piece. If anything, the t6 set bonus should be reverted to the t4 set bonus, [Justicar Breastplate]. The people/person who made the t4 set bonuses knew what they were doing back when crusader strike was spell damage orientated as well. Get that bastard back. Not the 10% to hammer of wrath...
#2481SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3little_ramona
A quick thanks to Bellator for all his hard work and for version 33. I'm am also seeing some strange results however. For example, [Jagged Bark Pendant] is listed as an upgrade for [Haramad's Bargain]. Just a heads up.
#2482SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Siral
but only for me all the functions of bellator's spreadsheet doesn't work?

i abilitate the macro but everytime i try to use a function of the spreadsheet i got a message error and excel move me in the debug mode.

Anyone can help me?
#2483SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Liono
I've always had the problem that I cant run the item analysis part of bellators spreadsheet. Its a shame but I kind of just accept it

For the record I've always errored in Public Sub Item_Calc()
on the line DataOption1:=xlSortNormal

It tells me that "Named Argument not found"

Still love the sheet though for the graph and for the strength equivalency stuff. Pleased to see Romulos poison vial in this version since I've been using it for ages... is the proc modelled into it though? It contributes to my overall DPS and certainly has an impact!
#2484SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
For Bellator:
http://domain1745759.sites.fasthosts...Kris/Sheet.JPG

It's not only giving weird results, like Mithril Band of the Unscarred better than Unstoppable Aggressors Ring, it also completely forgets about some items, like Crown of Anasterian.
#2485SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Hi Guys,

Coulple of things couple of repies:-

1) For every who is getting weird results such as Jagged Bark Pendant being listed as better than Haramad's Bargain, can you please take a screenshot of the analyis (and ideally of the character sheet) and post it here. The reason being i have checked numerous of these oddities, and its not due to incorrect stats, nor is there any changes to the way that the calculations are being run (except for the new gemming of hit then strength) and i've been unable to replicate any of them. I need to some of the output to figure out whats going wrong. Thanks


Originally Posted by Ysabelle View Post
Still noticing a bug when I analyze, all my gems get replaced with 10str and I have to reload my gear set every time.
I knew there was something I forgot to add. The Item Analysis currently does not reload the gems you had selected before running the analysis will add this in the next version.


Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Edit: I re-ran analysis and got results more closely in line to what I was expecting. It seems like pressing any key while the calculation is running will cause errors, including alt-tabbing away from the spreadsheet. Sometimes it will cause all results to be the exact same result(such as all items being -6.95 DPS from all slots).
Pressing the Escape key does cause the code to stop running (this is Excel not me). Pressing other keys or alt tabbing shoulsnt have effects such as causing the exact same results. Please can you post a screenshot of this.


Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
While we're still discussing the spreadsheet, how hard would it be to implement an "import from armory" functionality, Bellator? Probably you could reuse some of the code written in the Hunter/Rogue spreadsheets for that mechanism.
Pff, the spreadsheet calculates all possible upgrades, produces nice shiny graphs, and you're to lazy to even enter the data :p I'm joking of course. However my VB coding knowledge is very limited. However this feature does sound cool. Can you link one of these spreadsheets and i'll take a look at how it works and hopefully get it included.

Siral, Liono,

What versions of Excel are you using. I'm using 2003 to code it and there are issues with other versions running it. This is down to the way coding has changed between the versions, but unfortunately my knowledge of what coding is generic to all versions etc is very limited.

Liono, if you go into the VB code into "Module 1" and delete the followin 3 lines, then the analysis wont sort the items for you, but it might work

Range(TheOutput.Offset(1, 0), TheOutput.Offset(Row - 1, 5)).Sort Key1:=TheOutput.Offset(1, 1), Order1:=xlAscending, Header:=xlGuess, _
OrderCustom:=1, MatchCase:=False, Orientation:=xlTopToBottom, _
DataOption1:=xlSortNormal"


Originally Posted by Kris View Post
it also completely forgets about some items, like Crown of Anasterian.
This is an error in the database. Crown of Anasterian is listed under "user added" not "sunwell". Select user added as yes in the filter for this item to show. Will fix it in the next version
#2486SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Request

Hope you dont mind me doing a new post for this. I have a requests for you guys.

In the next version or two I will be adding a race selection tool. However as i only have a dwarf paladin I only know the base stats for a naked untalented level 70 dwarf. I need this for human and blood elf too. So if anyone doesnt mind getting naked forgetting their talents and posting them here it would be helpful. Cheers
#2487SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Hey Bellator, thanks for the new sheet. I noticed a bug, [Girdle of Seething Rage] has strength and stamina switched, thus making it look better than it actually is.
#2488SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Checked out the weapons again with the new sheet. [Shivering Felspine] is showing as second-best SoB weapon after Apolyon, beating [The Blade of Harbingers] by about 10 dps. I think some hunters should expect competition.

So in other words, 2.4 is basically introducing three new amazing SoB weapons (don't know how they rank for SoC).
#2489SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Liono
Liono, if you go into the VB code into "Module 1" and delete the followin 3 lines, then the analysis wont sort the items for you, but it might work
That fixed it.. Thanks bellator.. the spreadsheet just became even better from my PoV

I'm using Excel 2000 for my sins, proving nicely that my place of work is hideously outdated...
#2490SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Killmour
I don't know if you guys have checked MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies in the last little bit, but it appears that they are removing spell damage from the last vestige of the pre-raid plate gear.

Here's to hoping for Seal of Blood on alliance.
#2491SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aramul
Humans:
Health - 4397
Strength - 126
Agility - 77
Stamina - 120
Intellect - 83
Spirit - ~89 (base+racial is 97)

Draenei:
Strength - 127
Agility - 74
Stamina - 119
Intellect - 84
Spirit - 91

Blood Elf:
Strength - 123
Agility - 79
Stamina - 118
Intellect - 87
Spirit - 88
#2492SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING DPS MODEL

A number of people have mentioned that they are getting some odd analysis results.

I have figured out why this is occuring, and will release a new version this evening with this correction.

In the mean time to prevent odd results, just prior to running any analyses, go into the Character screen and press the "Socket HitCap".

Will get the new version out asap.

Regards
#2493SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Aramul,

I don't surpose you have a base value for Mana, AP, Crit and Spell Crit?
#2494SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Volrath50
I'm hoping this is the right place to put this, as it relates to ret raiding.

I'm looking for a mod that would show the judgements on a mob, and how long they have left on them. Preferably in a shrinking bar format, like Warlocks often use for their debuffs. This would be very helpful on fights with movement, so I can be sure I get in a crusader strike before JoW and JoL fall off.

I think I've seen something like this in a video one time, maybe of Gurtogg Bloodboil.
#2495SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Volrath50 View Post
I'm hoping this is the right place to put this, as it relates to ret raiding.

I'm looking for a mod that would show the judgements on a mob, and how long they have left on them. Preferably in a shrinking bar format, like Warlocks often use for their debuffs. This would be very helpful on fights with movement, so I can be sure I get in a crusader strike before JoW and JoL fall off.

I think I've seen something like this in a video one time, maybe of Gurtogg Bloodboil.
You can just use Quartz's Target Buff bar to show your Judgement on the mob. Your Judgement will end up lasting the same amount of time as everyone else's assuming you've landed a Crusader Strike.
#2496SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Ret DPS Model V34

Hey Guys, Updated model for you:-


jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com


Changes:-

Weird behavious of Item Analysis in V33 (where some items were incorrectly being reported as better than items they were clearly not better than) has been fixed and shouldn't occur

Running the Item Analysis will no longer overwrite the gem setup you have in the character screen.

The base dodge change of a boss has been increases to 6.5%. It was previously 5.6%

The "Base Information" box on the character screen now is clickable and you can select Dwarf/Human/Draenai/BloodElf.

The base information stats take into account:-
Humans Expertise (and takes into account the type of weapon equipped - highlights some interesting weapon choice based on race issues)
Draenais Heroic Prescence
Blood Elves Arcane torrent
Dwarves Find Treasure (ok, well it doesnt take into account this)

The base Crit/SpCrit/Health/Mana/AP for all but dwarves it calculated on other information provided. It may not be exactly correct. Feedback on these numbers appreciated.

Shadowmoon Destroyers Cloak correctly appears under the Tempest Keep filter

Crown of Anasterian correctly appears under the Sunwell filter
#2497SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
I have a question regarding the item comparisons. Does the comparison compare your current item versus other items without taking sockets into consideration? If it does take sockets into consideration, does it compare both items assuming they are using Bold Crimson Spinels, or your current gems?
#2498SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
It takes sockets into consideration using the auto-hitcap method. So if you're comparing 2 chests with 3 sockets each - for each item, it'll compute your total hit rating and if you're below the cap, it'll socket it with hit gems till you reach the cap and fill the rest with spinels.
#2499SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
One thing that would be really nice in a later version is a "I can't access BT gems" box that will use blue gems instead of epics. Anyone short of T6 can't make use of the gemming buttons.
#2500SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Aramul,

I don't surpose you have a base value for Mana, AP, Crit and Spell Crit?
For a human:

Mana: 3918
AP: 442
Melee Crit: 3.17%
Spell Crit: 4.37%

Melee Crit is low because I'm only 336 unarmed, so I'm not too sure if its right or not.
#2501SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
Volrath50 : Dfilter is very nice for that. You will be able to highlights some debuffs on your target, such as JoW JoL JotC. It does buffs as well, pretty handy.
By the way, if anyone knows how to get it to show the Windfury totem buff, I'll be gratefull.

And as usual, thanks bellator for the quick ss update!
#2502SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Galick
I think it would be a good idea to put the boomkin's improved faerie fire on the spreadsheet somewhere. It's an incredibly useful talent and although most guilds don't take advantage of what a boomkin can offer, it'd be nice to have the option on the spreadsheet.
#2503SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Eisentefel
There's something that I'm a bit confused about, from reading various posts here. It seems that people are talking about CS being on the GCD from using a Judgment right before it. But... Judgment doesn't trigger the GCD, does it? Or are they talking about the seal refresh putting CS on the GCD?
#2504SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Judging without refreshing the seal most definitely means a dps loss and is not recommended unless you're a computer and can time your hits perfectly.
#2505SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Eisentefel View Post
There's something that I'm a bit confused about, from reading various posts here. It seems that people are talking about CS being on the GCD from using a Judgment right before it. But... Judgment doesn't trigger the GCD, does it? Or are they talking about the seal refresh putting CS on the GCD?
It's as you say. Judging does not incur the GCD, but the seal refresh will. Most people have a macro that judges and refreshes at once hence their reference to judging causing the GCD.
#2506SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
gerine
Looks like v34 fixed the item analysis for me. Thanks Bellator.


On to macros,
I notice alot of ppl using the following:
/castsequence reset=10 judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

The thing that baffles me about this one is the reset is too low and forces it to restart the sequence before the whole sequence is finished. I figured it to be about 13.5 seconds or so to complete. If the reset is at 10 it will restart prior to the last CS and reduce your dps as opposed to increase it. I currently use a 15 reset on mine and it has been working great.

Last edited by gerine : 02/25/08 at 1:29 PM.
#2507SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Judging without refreshing the seal most definitely means a dps loss and is not recommended unless you're a computer and can time your hits perfectly.
That's a pretty slow ass computer if it needs 3,500ms to execute a command.
You just need to reseal before the swing timer comes around.
#2508SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by gerine View Post
Looks like v34 fixed the item analysis for me. Thanks Bellator.


On to macros,
I notice alot of ppl using the following:
/castsequence reset=10 judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

The thing that baffles me about this one is the reset is too low and forces it to restart the sequence before the whole sequence is finished. I figured it to be about 13.5 seconds or so to complete. If the reset is at 10 it will restart prior to the last CS and reduce your dps as opposed to increase it. I currently use a 15 reset on mine and it has been working great.
The reset occurs if you pass 10 seconds without a spell firing. You're expecting it to reset at 10 seconds no matter what, which, you're right, would be annoying.
#2509SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
That's a pretty slow ass computer if it needs 3,500ms to execute a command.
You just need to reseal before the swing timer comes around.
Or you can wait to judge until your GCD is up, hit your macro, and not have to even worry about it.

The DPS loss from judging 1.5 seconds later is very small, and its much safer just to wait.
#2510SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3gerine
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
The reset occurs if you pass 10 seconds without a spell firing. You're expecting it to reset at 10 seconds no matter what, which, you're right, would be annoying.
Got it. I guess I had a different understanding about the reset time. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
#2511SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Not a big deal, but I noticed on the spread sheet, the choices you can select from the drop down menu for Sanctified Judgement are 0 and 3. In your next release, could you add in a option for 1 and 2. I wanted to check out how much mana I would lose by selecting 2 instead of 3 Sanctified Judgement talent points. thx!
#2512SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Love the new spreadsheet Bellator. I found one thing that puzzled me; when I change the Seal from Command to Blood my AP changes, is this correct? I have never used SoB so I'm not sure if it does change your AP.
#2513SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
Love the new spreadsheet Bellator. I found one thing that puzzled me; when I change the Seal from Command to Blood my AP changes, is this correct? I have never used SoB so I'm not sure if it does change your AP.
Are you using [Libram of Divine Judgement]?
#2514SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Shadowmoon Destroyers Cloak correctly appears under the Tempest Keep filter
Eh, it's BT loot ;/
#2515SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xenozenith
Hmm, im a noob when it comes to macros...with regards to the above macro, how does it exactly work?Does hitting it just one time will cast all those spells at once or do i have to spam it?
#2516SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Originally Posted by xenozenith View Post
Hmm, im a noob when it comes to macros...with regards to the above macro, how does it exactly work?Does hitting it just one time will cast all those spells at once or do i have to spam it?
Cast sequence macros are exactly as the name says, a sequence, when you hit it the first time it will cast the first spell, when you hit it next time it will cast the next one, etc, etc....

The timer on the reset means that after 10 seconds even if you didn't cast the last spell in the sequence, it will reset.

If you actually make a cast sequence like people are suggesting you would be able to just hit 1 button all day and just spam it rather than actually having to play.
#2517SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3akdjr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
You can just use Quartz's Target Buff bar to show your Judgement on the mob. Your Judgement will end up lasting the same amount of time as everyone else's assuming you've landed a Crusader Strike.
Actually I've had several situations where only 2 of the 3 judgments were refreshed. Sometimes one of the 3 judgments just falls off a few seconds after a successful Crusader Strike, while the other 2 remain (my own judgment and one other) or the 3rd judgment just doesn't get refreshed while the other 2 do. I'm currently blaming it on latency as I've only seen it occur a few times, but it's definitely annoying when it happens.
#2518SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Just get Demon. Set it up for the 3 Judgements, and you can tell when any of them fall off. Problem solved.
#2519SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Eh, it's BT loot ;/
Thats what a lack of sleep does. The database correctly has it in BT, just a typo in the thread. (Edit...ah crap, the database has it listed under Tempest Keep not Black Temple. Will be fixed in next verion.

In version 35, Apolyon will be listed as dropping from Hogger. Want to see if i can break a world record for number of paladins in Elwynn Forest at the same time :p
#2520SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rotor
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
In version 35, Apolyon will be listed as dropping from Hogger. Want to see if i can break a world record for number of paladins in Elwynn Forest at the same time :p
Hahahaha! That's funny.

I have a question, that's probably already talked about in some of these pages somewhere, but I'd rather not spend the night sifting through 100 pages :P

Anyway. How would you guys rank your potential group members in relation to DPS gained from buffs given? I know obviously Enh Shammies are number one, but after that I'm not too sure. I've never really played any of them other than warriors and don't even know what half the group buffs on Bellator's sheet are. Let alone where they come from.

From what I've observed, I gain about 200DPS by having a Shaman in the group. Does this sound right? And if you guys know off hand, about how much does every other class give, for you, in real raiding?

The other night my group was a Hunter, Rogue, Druid, and Shaman. And I did more DPS that night than I have yet. We usually have 2 rogues in the group. Sometimes it's even three Rogues, me and a druid, when that happens, I almost think that I'd be better off somewhere else... What do you guys think?
#2521SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3gerine
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just get Demon. Set it up for the 3 Judgements, and you can tell when any of them fall off. Problem solved.
Where can I find this mod? I looked all over and couldnt seem to find it. I had looked several times for a mod that could do this. Would be great to finally have that instead of always having to watch the debuffs
#2522SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Most preferrable member is a shaman. Not only because he gives the best dps buffs, but also WF scales with gear. Second best is a warrior, though BS gives a much better AP boost at t4 than at t6 level, percentage based.
#2523SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by gerine View Post
Where can I find this mod? I looked all over and couldnt seem to find it. I had looked several times for a mod that could do this. Would be great to finally have that instead of always having to watch the debuffs
WoWAce Directory:
World of Warcraft Addons - WowAce.com

If you want the direct download link:
http://files.wowace.com/Demon/Demon-r54777.37.zip
#2524SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Angeal
Hi. I've been a long time reader of this thread, and I've come in to a large dilemma. The problems I'm encountering I haven't really observed in this thread yet in detail.


I'm trying to crunch numbers on the effectiveness of Armor Pen vs Haste. I clearly fail at math, and am only able to do basic formulas so I'm having trouble coming to grips with the numbers. I pretty much just want to know if Armor Pen is better than Haste Rating (Which the general consensus is no) - BUT if it is, how much armor pen would it take for it to outdo the latter?

If this has been brought up before, I sincerely apologize. I have not seen it in any sort of depth in this thread.


A thank you in advance for all you mathematically adept Retribution Paladins.




Oh, one other note - I'm a Blood Elf, so take SoB in to account instead of SoC if you feel brave enough to tackle this.
#2525SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by akdjr View Post
Actually I've had several situations where only 2 of the 3 judgments were refreshed. Sometimes one of the 3 judgments just falls off a few seconds after a successful Crusader Strike, while the other 2 remain (my own judgment and one other) or the 3rd judgment just doesn't get refreshed while the other 2 do. I'm currently blaming it on latency as I've only seen it occur a few times, but it's definitely annoying when it happens.
I think that's due to debuffs being knocked off by your raid spamming too many debuffs rather than CS bugging out, at least that would be my guess.

Was it a 25 man raid? And how many lock/warriors/shadowpriests etc did you have?



Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
Anyway. How would you guys rank your potential group members in relation to DPS gained from buffs given? I know obviously Enh Shammies are number one, but after that I'm not too sure. I've never really played any of them other than warriors and don't even know what half the group buffs on Bellator's sheet are. Let alone where they come from.
Along the "teach a man to fish > give a man a fish" motto:

If you're confused where something comes from, just go to Wowhead: Thrall-tested, Jaina-approved. (or WOWDB: The next generation World of Warcraft database) and type it into the search there.

It will show you what the spell is, what class has it and under what spec.

Example, if you search for "Blood Frenzy" in wowhead:

blood frenzy - Wowhead Search

Then click on the highest rank of the spell should give you a nice breakdown of cast time, proc chance, cost etc. if it applies to this spell as well as a clear heading:

Database > Spells > Talents > Warrior > Arms



Anyway, regarding what's better than what, it really depends on the other people's specs as well as your own personal DPS.

Imp BS is always a solid buff, but things like Ferocious Inspiration (3% damage, BM hunter) and other damage multipliers get better the higher your personal DPS is.

Same thing with LotP (5% crit) though that comes with the minor drawback of reducing your mana gain since heals from crits count as your own heals and therefore don't gain from Spiritual Attunement.


I suggest you pick up the spreadsheet and wowhead and try to selectively check each ability on and off to see what benefits you the most

(Yea shaman is a no brainer.)
#2526SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Angeal View Post
I'm trying to crunch numbers on the effectiveness of Armor Pen vs Haste.
Easiest would be to stack up ArP and haste gearsets in Bellator's spreadsheet and see which gives you more dps. Generally haste is better but ArP becomes very competitive once you have a lot of it (1000+). And some ArP items are best in slot for SoB - [Leggings of Divine Retribution], [Cataclysm's Edge].
#2527SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
On the subject of ArP, has the itemisation cost been calculated yet? Not seen anything anywhere and would like to know exactly how good/bad ArP in per itemisation point.
#2528SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Angeal
Valerys, I will be trying this now. Thank you.



Edit:

Is everything being taken in to account? Some of this doesn't seem right with the armor pen. I'll plug in as much armor pen this time and see what I come up with.

Last edited by Angeal : 02/26/08 at 6:41 AM.
#2529SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
Yeah it was calculated recently. It's 0.15 itemization points.

Last edited by Anarkii : 02/26/08 at 7:10 AM.
#2530SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Yeah it was calculated recently. It's 0.15 per itemization point.
Do you mean 1 point of armpen costs 0.15 itemisation points?

That would make armpen very nice
#2531SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yeah that's what I meant. Edited my post to avoid confusions. For easy verification, you can look at the T6 paladin bracers and T6 DPS Warrior bracers. Same stats, 1 socket each, 21 haste on ret vs 140 ArP on warrior. So (21/140=0.15)
#2532SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Angeal
ImageShack - Hosting :: armorpenmd2.jpg


Came up with that. Most Armor Pen you can get save killing your other stats.



A couple of the items didn't allow sockets - The neck and gloves off the top of my head.


Does it really take that much armor pen to out do that stupid badge axe?
#2533SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yes, Armor Penetration is good when stacked but for blood elves haste is clearly better per itemization point. Seeing so much haste in our 2.4 gear, that's a good thing! There's no real reason to go for a stacked Armor Penetration set in 2.4 if you're a blood elf.
#2534SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xenozenith
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Cast sequence macros are exactly as the name says, a sequence, when you hit it the first time it will cast the first spell, when you hit it next time it will cast the next one, etc, etc....

The timer on the reset means that after 10 seconds even if you didn't cast the last spell in the sequence, it will reset.

If you actually make a cast sequence like people are suggesting you would be able to just hit 1 button all day and just spam it rather than actually having to play.
Ah. I see, thanks for the explanation

Another noob question: after taking a look at 2.4 items, i've noticed the huge emphasis on haste. For a BE pally, is it worth sacrificing crit/hit for haste?Roughly how much haste rating will compensate for that 1% crit?
#2535SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Angeal
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Yes, Armor Penetration is good when stacked but for blood elves haste is clearly better per itemization point. Seeing so much haste in our 2.4 gear, that's a good thing! There's no real reason to go for a stacked Armor Penetration set in 2.4 if you're a blood elf.
Clearly better?

I don't know. Armor Pen gets amazing when you get a lot of it.

Can we get some sexy math time on this, please?
#2536SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
hmm, the maths for this is very interesting. Most bosses in the game have either 7700 or 6200 armour. The spreadsheet assumes 7700 armour. Now with CoR/FF/Sunders, with tier 7 gear and standard other buffs on boss this means in terms of dps gain per itemisation point

For SoC, Str>Arm Pen>Haste

For SoB, Str>Haste>Arm Pen

However for bosses with 6200 armor (i'll let you change this i next version of sheet)

For SoC, Arm Pen > Str > Haste

For SoB, Str=Arm Pen>Haste
#2537SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Angeal
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
hmm, the maths for this is very interesting. Most bosses in the game have either 7700 or 6200 armour. The spreadsheet assumes 7700 armour. Now with CoR/FF/Sunders, with tier 7 gear and standard other buffs on boss this means in terms of dps gain per itemisation point

For SoC, Str>Arm Pen>Haste

For SoB, Str>Haste>Arm Pen

However for bosses with 6200 armor (i'll let you change this i next version of sheet)

For SoC, Arm Pen > Str > Haste

For SoB, Str=Arm Pen>Haste

Well, considering all bosses in Hyjal/3 out of 9 BT has 6200 - My armor pen fetish seems moderately valid.

Bell, would you mind including how much of a difference there is with the above four statements you made?

I also see somewhat of a problem. Armor Pen becomes better the more you have of it. I'm pretty sure it gains exponentially, not linearly. Which would mean at some point, it should out do everything until you remove all of a boss' armor. I think.
#2538SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Found this chart a while back, found it useful for ArP analysis.

Armor Penetration DPS increase.

Also what is the Itemization cost for all the stats in Bellator's Spreadsheet Strength Equivalence Calculation?
#2539SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Well... like any exponential, probably not until you're riiight at the end. point for point at least.

With sunder, faerie fire and CoR, you're taking off 4010.. so from a 7700 boss.. down to 3690 armour. Judging by the OP of the boss armour value thread [RAID] Boss armor values (as Im too tired atm to do the math myself) thats going from around 42% reduction to 26% reduction.. if you manage to stack another 300~ ArmPen, you take that value to 24%

The initial 4k of armour penetration increases dmg take by 16%~

The extra 300 on top of that increased it by a further 2%

But yeh, start getting close to 0 armour, armour penetration begins to look super awesome. So dont forget to shout at your druids/locks for their debuffs next time you want to increase your effectiveness
#2540SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Seal of Blood :

With a 0.15 value of ArP and considering high end gear:
ArP equals Haste at boss armor(after gear+debuffs) around 2000.
ArP equals Strength at boss armor around 1000.
#2541SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mohlovin
Looking at this, as I have been drooling over all the new haste gear since it's release.

I have never claimed to be great with numbers so hoping someone can shed more light on this...but am I wrong in thinking that ArP only impacts our damage from white melee and crusader strike? where as haste also increases the frequency (and thus amount) of SoB damage.

Just seems to me, since haste scales so much greater thorugh level, and with SoB scaling with your weapon, that that added SoB damage would outweigh whatever ArP does, as it has a finite limit.
#2542SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
I'm not sure about SoB but for me using SoC ~75% of my damage is physical, from CS and Melee.
#2543SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Seal of Blood :

With a 0.15 value of ArP and considering high end gear:
ArP equals Haste at boss armor(after gear+debuffs) around 2000.
ArP equals Strength at boss armor around 1000.
I assume thats excluding FF/Sunders/CoR? If these are both on, can add about 4k to those results. Though i'm actually getting value of about 6.5 and 6k respectively for ArP being better than Haste/Strength. (though very dependant on gear choice etc etc)

Just so you guys know for the analysis tool, the next analysis I plan to (try to) include is a tool which creates the perfect gear spread based per itemisation level and then calculats an "itemisation %" figure to work out how close to perfect that item actually is.
#2544SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Mohlovin View Post
Looking at this, as I have been drooling over all the new haste gear since it's release.

I have never claimed to be great with numbers so hoping someone can shed more light on this...but am I wrong in thinking that ArP only impacts our damage from white melee and crusader strike? where as haste also increases the frequency (and thus amount) of SoB damage.

Just seems to me, since haste scales so much greater thorugh level, and with SoB scaling with your weapon, that that added SoB damage would outweigh whatever ArP does, as it has a finite limit.
You are correct in that ArP only affects melee and Crusader Strike. However, melee + CS usually equals melee + SoB percentage wise. From my latest substantial BT WWS melee + CS would equal 69% of my total damage. Melee + SoB would equal 68% of my damage. The only problem with ArP is having to stack it to see better results. As such, I'm trying to get more ArP gear myself. I have the Gurtogg legs, but still need [Cataclysm's Edge] and [Signet of Primal Wrath].
#2545SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I assume thats excluding FF/Sunders/CoR? If these are both on, can add about 4k to those results. Though i'm actually getting value of about 6.5 and 6k respectively for ArP being better than Haste/Strength. (though very dependant on gear choice etc etc)
Those were including FF/Sunders/CoR. So on a boss with 6.6K armor, assuming FF/Sunders/CoR, you'll only need 600 Armor Penetration from gear to outvalue haste. Those were my results from rough calculations anyway. I'll double check with values from the spreadsheet.
#2546SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Those were including FF/Sunders/CoR. So on a boss with 6.6K armor, assuming FF/Sunders/CoR, you'll only need 600 Armor Penetration from gear to outvalue haste. Those were my results from rough calculations anyway. I'll double check with values from the spreadsheet.
Yeah thats what i meant, and those numbers make sense and match with the results i'm getting give or take 500ish. As other gear etc has a big effect
#2547SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
With regard to SoB, is armor penetration still beating it out even when you take windfury into account? I'm curious if someone wants to model ArP vs Haste assuming full buffs, for 6200 and 7700 bosses to show if there's a point where the difference is negligible.
#2548SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Those were including FF/Sunders/CoR. So on a boss with 6.6K armor, assuming FF/Sunders/CoR, you'll only need 600 Armor Penetration from gear to outvalue haste. Those were my results from rough calculations anyway. I'll double check with values from the spreadsheet.
If that is the case, then I am really close to this when Executioner proc. I am sitting at 516 according to the dps spread sheet. I am also curios to see how these numbers come out. I hear warriors talking all the time how they want more ArmPen. I guess I always thought it would affect us in the same way.
#2549SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
So far it's hard to base the Haste vs ArP value off the spread sheet because it has my taking a sizeable hit in DPS when I build a full Haste vs ArP set so I'm still trying some testing but getting mixed results.

1686 DPS Full ArP - http://www.mywowui.net/gallery/main....&g2_itemId=153

1660 DPS Full Haste - http://www.mywowui.net/gallery/main....&g2_itemId=156

Even if I swap around weapons and enchants the spreadsheet always says Haste is under ArP so I'm not sure.
#2550SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
Originally Posted by Handled View Post
So far it's hard to base the Haste vs ArP value off the spread sheet because it has my taking a sizeable hit in DPS when I build a full Haste vs ArP set so I'm still trying some testing but getting mixed results.

1686 DPS Full ArP - http://www.mywowui.net/gallery/main....&g2_itemId=153

1660 DPS Full Haste - http://www.mywowui.net/gallery/main....&g2_itemId=156

Even if I swap around weapons and enchants the spreadsheet always says Haste is under ArP so I'm not sure.
You'd need to use leather/mail to make a more accurate comparison probably if you're using a "which gear set is best" approach. I'm wondering if there's a more mathematical way to approach it, and rather than try and build a superior set of gear, to get into the nuts and bolts of is haste better than armor pen, regardless of how Blizzard has chosen to itemize loot.
#2551SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
You'd need to use leather/mail to make a more accurate comparison probably if you're using a "which gear set is best" approach. I'm wondering if there's a more mathematical way to approach it, and rather than try and build a superior set of gear, to get into the nuts and bolts of is haste better than armor pen, regardless of how Blizzard has chosen to itemize loot.
I am trying to compare the two using the spreadsheet and I noticed there is a lot of high end leather gear that has ArmPen on it.
#2552SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gormal
There's also a lot of high-end leather gear loaded with hit rating, like [Midnight Chestguard]. For the purposes of this, it'd probably be best to ignore the T6 2-piece bonus. I haven't been able to get my Excel to work for a couple weeks now, so I'm pretty much useless.
#2553SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by Gormal View Post
There's also a lot of high-end leather gear loaded with hit rating, like [Midnight Chestguard]. For the purposes of this, it'd probably be best to ignore the T6 2-piece bonus. I haven't been able to get my Excel to work for a couple weeks now, so I'm pretty much useless.
See that is just it, I have every piece of Haste related gear slotted and it's a DPS decrease over minimal ArP. This is why I don't see this big Haste push. I used Haste only for a long time but feel my DPS and longevity have both increased switching to ArP and 2pc T6.
#2554SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

Has any scryer paladin tested this on PTR? I'm specifically interested in the Arcane Might proc :
1) Is it affected by spell damage?
2) It can supposedly crit. Is it based on spell crit or melee crit?
3) Is it affected by Misery, Vengeance, Avenging Wrath etc?
4) Can the proc be fully/partially resisted?
#2555SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

Has any scryer paladin tested this on PTR? I'm specifically interested in the Arcane Might proc :
1) Is it affected by spell damage?
2) It can supposedly crit. Is it based on spell crit or melee crit?
3) Is it affected by Misery, Vengeance, Avenging Wrath etc?
4) Can the proc be fully/partially resisted?
Looking the neck up on Wowhead (unless they've changed it recently?):
Originally Posted by Wowhead
For Exalted with Scryers, it procs an attack called Arcane Strike, which deals approximately 350-400 arcane damage. With a bit of testing, it seems to proc about once per fight. Visually, it creates a small spark on the enemy, and looks and sounds like the blood elf racial Mana Tap.

Edit: Arcane Strike can crit.
So I doubt it's affected by spell damage (which items are anymore?), and general assumptions lead you to believe it's spell crit, affected by Misery (not Vengeance, since that's only Holy damage) and other modifiers, and it should be resistable. Of course, that's just going off items that function very similarly.

Last edited by DarKNecross : 02/27/08 at 1:54 AM.
#2556SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3gcbirzan
Originally Posted by Handled View Post
I used Haste only for a long time but feel my DPS and longevity have both increased switching to ArP and 2pc T6.
Haste would give you some more mana back from more melee swings->more SoB procs, whereas armour penetration wouldn't.
#2557SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
You are correct in that ArP only affects melee and Crusader Strike. However, melee + CS usually equals melee + SoB percentage wise. From my latest substantial BT WWS melee + CS would equal 69% of my total damage. Melee + SoB would equal 68% of my damage.
That's a really good way at looking at it, especially for those of us blessed with SoB.


My only issue with ArP has always been a theoretical one, rather than pratical:

Basically, if ArP is that good while it only affects ~70% of our attacks, how much better is it for warriors who pretty much share our loot table?

As said this is purely theoretical, but I feel it's a pretty silly mechanic. For example SoC only does 70% weapon damage since it's balanced around being an attack that completely ignores armor.

However with the latest itemisation you can almost fully mitigate boss armor with all your attacks as a warrior, hmm.
#2558SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
So I doubt it's affected by spell damage (which items are anymore?), and general assumptions lead you to believe it's spell crit, affected by Misery (not Vengeance, since that's only Holy damage) and other modifiers, and it should be resistable. Of course, that's just going off items that function very similarly.
For the sake of completeness, it would be probably affected by Improved Sanctity Aura and Avenging Wrath, since those affect all damage, as well as Curse of Shadow, since that increases Arcane damage.
#2559SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. The Hammer of Naaru was changed on the PTR.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9131/hotnru4.jpg
#2560SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Quepaso
Hey guys, first time poster but long time reader on this site, however this is my first time in the ret theorycrafting section. Looking to get some info from some of you gents

1) gear wise, how are my stats? (i.e. +hit, str/ap, crit, etc) do i need to focus more on something and less on something else?

2) My spec- i've seen many diff spec's, and i like mine b/c it seems to work well for PvP and PvE. Any confirmation/hey dumbass you're spec is @#$$ would be greatly appreciated

3) I'm an Alliance Human pally- from what i hear haste is more for B-elves? Also, i see alot of armor reduction gear which i always thought was more for dps warriors..should i invest in some of that gear? I have about 130 badges at my disposal....

4) My guild is 4/5 MH 4/9 BT currently, and i have very good gear sets for holy and protection, now im working on ret. Recently did a quick SSC run to get some peeps attuned and i was able to get 3rd on the dmg meter. The main reason im posting here is i want to be #1. If i have people in my raid (locks, arcane mages,BM hunters) who are very skilled and on top of their game, is it even plausable to be able to beat them in dmg as a ret pally? I understand i give a good dmg buff to my group with imp sanctity, as well as +3% to crit to everyone in the raid on a target...i just wanna know if i could win

Any help you fellas could give me would rock!

Thanks again,
QP
#2561SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Put a +12 agi + 3 crit dmg gem in the head socket, get Mongoose instead of Savagery, check Bellator's spreadsheet for possible upgrades in your range.
#2562SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Vicadin
Torch>Cat's Edge with Haste?

It seems to me (and mind you, I have no hard math to back this up) that considering how close the SoB DPS comparison is between Cat's Edge and Torch of the Damned, that if you stack enough haste that the Torch should eventually exceed Cat's DPS numbers. Has anyone tested this out to find out if it's true? If so, how much haste would one need to stack in order for the Torch to beat out Cat's Edge?

I apologize in advance if I'm asking a question which has already been asked here, but sadly the 101 pages of responses is a bit daunting to sift through for an answer. The reason I ask is that I have the option of taking Cat's Edge when it drops, however, if the Torch would serve me better in the long run, then I would prefer to let someone else, for whom it would be a bigger upgrade, loot Cat's Edge and just wait for the Torch.
#2563SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Vicadin View Post
It seems to me...
Not quite sure where you're drawing your logic from. Whatever haste you add when you're swinging Torch will also be the same when you swing a CE. If Torch is going to average 1000 per swing and CE is going to average 1050 per swing, making the Torch swing faster isn't going to change anything. If anything, CE would benefit slightly more due to more haste since it's a higher dps weapon. An easy way to check this is to use Bellator's spreadsheet and manually change the haste values.
#2564SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Vicadin
I was basing my assumption off the the higher top end on the Torch combined with the slower speed, which tends to benefit more from haste (although admittedly, by a potentially miniscule amount), however, I guess I should just plugin the values to the spreadsheet and see what comes up, thanks!
#2565SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Vicadin View Post
It seems to me (and mind you, I have no hard math to back this up) that considering how close the SoB DPS comparison is between Cat's Edge and Torch of the Damned, that if you stack enough haste that the Torch should eventually exceed Cat's DPS numbers. Has anyone tested this out to find out if it's true? If so, how much haste would one need to stack in order for the Torch to beat out Cat's Edge?
The opposite is true. Increasing your attack speed by 1% increases your white damage (and Seal of Blood damage, if you rolled the Master Race) by 1%, which will always favor the higher DPS weapon. Haste rating is weapon speed agnostic.

This is really easy to observe on the latest version of the spreadsheet. Load the pre-raid gear set and give it a Torch of the Damned. Cat's Edge comes out 4.66 DPS ahead. Then load the Tier 7 set that's loaded up with haste gear. Cat's Edge is 29.88 DPS ahead.
#2566SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by Vicadin View Post
I was basing my assumption off the the higher top end on the Torch combined with the slower speed, which tends to benefit more from haste (although admittedly, by a potentially miniscule amount), however, I guess I should just plugin the values to the spreadsheet and see what comes up, thanks!
The only situation where a higher top end is inherently better is if your primary goal when gearing is to make your crits as big as possible at the cost of dps. Other than that, it's a completely meaningless number.
#2567SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Prinsesa
I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. The Hammer of Naaru was changed on the PTR.
It's a nice change, but without any crit, its other contemporaries like the [Gorehowl] or the [Gladiator's Greatsword] still end up being better.

Here's hoping they change [The Oathkeeper] as well

Last edited by Prinsesa : 02/28/08 at 12:26 AM. Reason: tags
#2568SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
The only situation where a higher top end is inherently better is if your primary goal when gearing is to make your crits as big as possible at the cost of dps. Other than that, it's a completely meaningless number.
Or you're using SoC.
#2569SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
I was using Bellator's spreadsheet to look at glove upgrades, and the results kind of confuse me, so I'm hoping some kind folks can help me understand what I'm seeing.

Right now I'm wearing Vengeful Gladiator's gloves,, and Here's the values I'm getting for the crafted gloves next patch.

Hard Khorium Battlefists -1.23
Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets 0
Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix 5.16
Gloves of the Immortal Dusk 22.35

I don't understand why the leather crafted gloves are so much better than anything else, for me. Is the armor pen that great? It's not that I can't believe their an upgrade, it's the magnitude that has me nervous.
#2570SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
For Exalted with Scryers, it procs an attack called Arcane Strike, which deals approximately 350-400 arcane damage. With a bit of testing, it seems to proc about once per fight. Visually, it creates a small spark on the enemy, and looks and sounds like the blood elf racial Mana Tap.

Edit: Arcane Strike can crit.
I have a sinking feeling that the aldor version of the buff is holy dmg =P
#2571SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by noth View Post
I was using Bellator's spreadsheet...
Armor pen is going to do more for you than haste is since you're an Alliance paladin, but the LW gloves are just nice in general. I believe they are more dps than the BS crafted ones using SoB too.
#2572SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
I have a sinking feeling that the aldor version of the buff is holy dmg =P
If Wowhead is to be believed, the Aldor proc is 200 AP for 10 seconds.
#2573SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
I have a sinking feeling that the aldor version of the buff is holy dmg =P
The Aldor version is a straight +200AP proc that lasts 10s
#2574SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
If Wowhead is to be believed, the Aldor proc is 200 AP for 10 seconds.
If Wowhead is to be believed, the Scryer proc is 100 crit rating for 10 seconds. Except it isn't.
#2575SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
No comments yet on the new Alchemist's Stones?

From world of raids:



At first glance, 54 crit rating doesn't sound like it can outdo any of my current PvE trinkets ([Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and [Berserker's Call]), though I guess some numbers need to be crunched. The extra mana would be very welcome on longer fights.

Personally I was hoping for an direct upgrade of the old [Alchemist's Stone] (item level 90) with just heavier stats.

(On a side note, damn that healing trinket is nice, I believe it's best in spot.)
#2576SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Such a shame those Achemist Stones don't increase the effect of Haste Potions as well. =(
#2577SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
The tanking / melee dps stones are really underwhelming... I was hoping for something that would EASILY be best in slot like how all the other professions get...?

End game Helm for engies, End game Chests for Tailor / BS / LW...

On the bright side... the healing one definitely seems worth it and it looks like I can get rid of my essence of the martyr finally
#2578SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Or you're using SoC.
Given two 3.8 speed weapons, where one does 400-600 damage and the other does 450-550, which do you think would do higher dps with SoC? How about between one that does 400-600 and one that does 500-550?
#2579SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
I imagine hes not bad enough to think that higher top end = more damage if the average damage is the same, my guess is since your usually comparing two weapons of equal dps... higher top end = slower = better for SOC... at least thats what I imagine he is thinking.
#2580SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
Given two 3.8 speed weapons, where one does 400-600 damage and the other does 450-550, which do you think would do higher dps with SoC? How about between one that does 400-600 and one that does 500-550?
That's irrelevant. The comparison is between Torch and CE where torch has 396-595 damage and CE has 386-580. Don't know how your example applies.

In addition, SoC is not weapon speed normalized = Higher frontload X slower weapon = win.

Last edited by Avitus : 02/28/08 at 11:03 AM.
#2581SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
I saw this change to Shamans

Shamanistic rage now let you regenerate mana equal to 30% of your attack power instead of 15. Duration reduced to 15 seconds. (Was 30 seconds)
I would love a talent or a change to a talent that gave us mana regen like this.
#2582SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
That's irrelevant. The comparison is between Torch and CE where torch has 396-595 damage and CE has 386-580. Don't know how your example applies.

In addition, SoC is not weapon speed normalized = Higher frontload X slower weapon = win.
SoC benefits from slower weapons, and weapons with higher dps. It does not benefit from weapons with a higher top end. If you look very closely at the examples I posted, you should be able to figure out the difference.
#2583SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tarja
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
SoC benefits from slower weapons, and weapons with higher dps. It does not benefit from weapons with a higher top end. If you look very closely at the examples I posted, you should be able to figure out the difference.
You are right that it is not top end weapon damage that matters, but your example is wrong. First of all, your example is fairly meaningless because 2H weapons tend to pretty much always have top end damage proportional to the weapon's average base damage. I couldn't find a single example of two TBC epic 2Handers where one weapon has a higher top end damage the other weapon has higher average base damage. Second of all, it is actually not the average base weapon damage that matters for SoC - what matters is the average damage after including attack power.

So for example, Cataclysm's Edge has significantly higher top end damage (580) AND average base damage (483) than a World Breaker (558/464.5), but as long as your AP is over 1500, the World Breaker would still have higher SoC damage since it is slower, and your AP adds more damage per attack. I think this sort of example, with weapons that actually exist, is far better at illustrating why it is wrong to think in terms of "top end damage" when comparing weapons.
#2584SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Shalas View Post
SoC benefits from slower weapons, and weapons with higher dps. It does not benefit from weapons with a higher top end. If you look very closely at the examples I posted, you should be able to figure out the difference.
Please spare me the tone. Your example is meaningless and simply a derail. You hooked on to some guy saying "top end" when he meant "frontload" and started a crusade to explain how 10-30 is the same as 15-25. Wow.

Frontload matters.

Speed matters.

Top end doesn't, but that's irrelevant since no one even is talking about that and since it's pretty standardized in how weapon ranges are.

Jeez.
#2585SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Buliwyf
We're at 104 pages now and more an more people are saying they don't want to read all 104 pages to maybe find their answers. Should we compress all we have learned in this thread to a new post #1 in a new thread and keep going from there?

Edit. It appears I missed out "two" capital letters in the above paragraph. I have been reported for this heinous crime and have received a penalty point. I am sorry for offending anyone and will endeavor to ensure it never happens again. Should I miss out the occasional comma or quotation mark, please feel free to PM me that my mistakes irk you and I will fix them and let the forum police focus their attentions on the real trolls.

Last edited by Buliwyf : 03/01/08 at 8:24 AM.
#2586SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Reading all 104 pages is a laborious process which is why they have a search function. While at some point we may want to condense everything and start anew, I don't think that it's necessary at the moment. There's still plenty of good information to be gleaned with a bit of effort.
#2587SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
So the second Blizzcast is out (hooray?). Nothing terribly exciting except for a small comment by Tom Chilton at around 38:45. When asked about changing SoC/JoC to take effect of "warrior stats" he responded like so (paraphrased):

"We want all specs to use the same kind of gear so that we don't have to itemize specifically for one spec in the game. We want ret pallys to use Warrior style gear. We've made a few changes to fix the immediate problems in 2.3. Eventually we want to make it so all the seals and Judgements use this kind of stat distribution, but we will not be seeing the full effects of this until the next expansion." (emphasis mine)

Sounds to me like we won't be seeing any changes to SoC to help with the oodles of haste on Sunwell gear. I can't say I'm especially happy with the continuation of the "wait and see" crap the devs keep shoving down our mouths.

EDIT: Found the full Transcript

Bornakk: So, we have a couple of questions for you today. The first is, regarding Retribution Paladins, we've made some recent changes to the class that were very nice and they're wondering if we're going to update the Seal or the Judgement of Command with the new model that we were following.

Tom Chilton: Absolutely. What we're trying to do, a big push that we have in the expansion, is to get different specs and different classes to use similar types of gear. What we don't want to have to do is drop different kinds of gear for every single different kind of spec in the game. Unfortunately, that has the side effect of making people feel as though a lot of loot that isn't for them drops. It's great when the item that is for your class, for your spec drops but you've got to figure that there's a whole lot of other classes and specs out there just thinking ‘another item that's not for me?'

So, what we're trying to do is make sure that the items are shared more among the different classes and specs. So, we're really looking towards moving Retribution Paladins farther towards using the same kind of itemization that warriors use and we've made a couple of changes recently in patch 2.3 that kind of go part of the way there. And really, that was just to shore up some of the immediate problems that we were having with it.

Really, we want to go further with that and make sure that across the board, all the different Seals, Judgements, and all the different paladin abilities in general kind of follow that same scheme. But that's something we'll likely be seeing the full effect of in the expansion. (emphasis mine)
I personally really don't feel like waiting another 8-10 months to actually have a working combat system that scales with stats correctly, especially when my comrades across the border have it already. With all the Haste on SWP gear and all the 2-handed weapons being fast as hell its looking like things are going to be very depressing for alliance for a while.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 02/28/08 at 4:09 PM.
#2588SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
"Really, we want to go further with that and make sure that across the board, all the different Seals, Judgements, and all the different paladin abilities in general kind of follow that same scheme."

That sounds promising.

IMO, if Ret paladins are going "Warrior style gear", the entire class needs to follow suit, or ease of itemization is not going to improve much on Blizzard's end. (Warrior/pal DPS gear, warrior tank gear, prot paladin tank gear, holy paladin heal gear ...)


I'd like to see what they mean that "full effect" though. How much effect are they going to give us in the interim? (Well, the end of 2.4 will tell us that)


I will be greatly amused if I can someday look at a pure Str/Sta item and think, "oooh, that looks good for healing".
#2589SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Chicken
I'm also curious how it'll work through to Protection Paladins. I wouldn't say no to a re-thinking/re-itemization which makes Block Value fill in the task that Spell Damage currently does.

That would possibly be too powerful though; converting all the spell damage on my tier sets to Block Value would see me an extremely large gain in how much I block for, and it's already responsible for a pretty large amount of damage reduction as is.
#2590SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
I'm also curious how it'll work through to Protection Paladins. I wouldn't say no to a re-thinking/re-itemization which makes Block Value fill in the task that Spell Damage currently does.

That would possibly be too powerful though; converting all the spell damage on my tier sets to Block Value would see me an extremely large gain in how much I block for, and it's already responsible for a pretty large amount of damage reduction as is.
Also, flip that. Imagine a warrior's threat with that much block value.
#2591SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rasputin
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
I'm also curious how it'll work through to Protection Paladins. I wouldn't say no to a re-thinking/re-itemization which makes Block Value fill in the task that Spell Damage currently does.

That would possibly be too powerful though; converting all the spell damage on my tier sets to Block Value would see me an extremely large gain in how much I block for, and it's already responsible for a pretty large amount of damage reduction as is.
"Spell damage increased by X% of your block value"

They don't seem to want to change the end playstyle of the classes, or else we'd be using physical damage seals that we activate when we choose as Ret. They could allow cross-utilization of gear by dropping in a few deep talents. For prot, mana regen on damage done to help with "rage" generation(as protadins are really the only class that can be run dry, especially in an offtanking position) and something to get spell damage from warrior tank stats(block value mostly). Ret is closer already. Fix SoComm so it's the definitive ret seal by scaling it with AP exclusively, then add in mana regeneration from some DPS stat or activity and we can ignore int and mp5 and completely share warrior DPS gear. This seems reasonable to do across all classes, and could easily narrow the drops down to DPS plate, tanking plate, DPS mail, healing mail, DPS leather, etc so that restrictions are by role and armor type instead of role, armor type, class, and spec.
#2592SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
For those who know of Rawr, I've started working on Rawr.Retribution.For those who don't -

Originally Posted by Astrylian
In the most concise terms, Rawr is a program for rating gear, enchants, buffs, etc. It will help you build sets of gear for whatever your purpose is, and most of all, it's accurate. Rawr takes everything possible into account when building ratings, in order to provide the most reliable ratings of gear. First, let me give a brief overview of how Rawr rates gear. In short, it doesn't. Rawr never looks at an item, and gives it a value based on what stats it has. In order to be as accurate as possible, Rawr only looks at the whole picture, the entire character, counting race, gear, enchants, buffs, info about your target, and any other calculation options. Based on the entire character, it will do all the calculations necessary to build one or more Ratings for the character (such as Survival and Mitigation for bears). So how do we get ratings for gear? The ratings for a piece of gear are defined as the difference between <The entire character with that item equipped> and <The entire character with that slot empty>. When Rawr says that one item is better than another by X points, that means that your entire character will be X points better with that item equipped, than the other. The same is done for buffs and enchants. This method is accurate because it takes all gear scaling into account, including the piece being equipped, and not the item you already have equipped.
You can find more info on the current version of Rawr, which was created initially for druids here :
The Druid Wiki � Rawr

I'm creating a module to incorporate the Paladin DPS Model into Rawr which will enable people to choose their gear sets, compare the DPS difference between items graphically, measure the total dps and the dps breakdown ; and do all this while choosing buffs/debuffs/fight options.

The two main objectives are ease of use and accuracy. Astrylian, the original author of Rawr(the base and module for feral druids) has done a nice job of making it easy to use. Regarding the accuracy, I'm referencing the calculations from Bellator's spreadsheet since it has been commonly used for a long time. There are some fundamental temporary buff changes I'm making like the uptime of Bloodlust and Avenging Wrath being used towards their multipliers, depending on fight duration instead of averaging them out on their cooldowns.

I also plan to eventually model the comparison between different stats based on their itemization points. If anyone has any suggestions on what they want to see in this module, I'd be happy to hear.

Some previews of the state after a few hours of effort are attached.
Attached Thumbnails
options1.jpg  overall2.jpg  

#2593SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
If Wowhead is to be believed, the Scryer proc is 100 crit rating for 10 seconds. Except it isn't.
The Scryer proc was just theorized from the comments, whereas the Aldor proc was listed right below the tooltip. In any case, it's already been established that the Scryer proc is an Arcane Bolt.

I'm also curious how it'll work through to Protection Paladins.
An idea I had would be to give tiered pieces assloads of loving spell damage, like 2.4's Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate.

Between that and our weapon, our necklace/cloak/bracers/belt/boots/rings/trinkets could probably be standardized Protection gear (no STR, no INT, no spell damage) without a lot of problems.

Even the bracers/belt/boots could be a wash depending on how much more Blizzard will extend their 8-piece sets into WOTLK.
#2594SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Liania
Just downloaded the spreadsheet and trying to compare my current items with upgrades i hit the "Analyse Items" button... But nothing happens, no errors no nothing :s

Or wait i do get an error:

Same thing happens when i press the socket gems buttons.

Anyone know why?

Last edited by Liania : 02/29/08 at 4:32 AM.
#2595SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Morax
Click Debug and Search in every File vor "Names" - delete every match - try again
i think some changes in excel 2007
#2596SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Liania
As much as it felt like i was deleting 25% of the spreadsheet it actually worked.

/bow
#2597SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Buliwyf
Looking at your system tray, it "appears" you're running both Norton Security and AVG anti virus. I'd suggest picking one or the other and not using both. Norton, in particular, doesn't like sharing with other anti virus programs

Last edited by Buliwyf : 03/01/08 at 8:26 AM. Reason: Grammar
#2598SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Liania
Trust me i tried getting rid of norton several times... I just dont know how :x
#2599SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Buliwyf
START > Control Panel > Add/Remove Programs. Find and click on anything by Norton and Symantec and "remove".

If you have done this already and/or it sounds patronizing, apologies. Hope it helps.

Anyway, enough off topic for me now or I get spanked methinks

Last edited by Buliwyf : 03/01/08 at 8:25 AM. Reason: Grammar
#2600SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nhul
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
"Really, we want to go further with that and make sure that across the board, all the different Seals, Judgements, and all the different paladin abilities in general kind of follow that same scheme."

That sounds promising.

IMO, if Ret paladins are going "Warrior style gear", the entire class needs to follow suit, or ease of itemization is not going to improve much on Blizzard's end. (Warrior/pal DPS gear, warrior tank gear, prot paladin tank gear, holy paladin heal gear ...)

Ret - Warrior
Prot - Warrior (with some consideration for paladin specific items through badges or a focus on different stats)
Holy - Shaman (many shaman items have crit, haste, and mp5, all the stuff we use as holy as well)

I dont think its that far off, especially from a BE point of view.

It is disappointing that command isnt getting fixed until 2.4.
#2601SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Nhul View Post
Ret - Warrior
Prot - Warrior (with some consideration for paladin specific items through badges or a focus on different stats)
Holy - Shaman (many shaman items have crit, haste, and mp5, all the stuff we use as holy as well)

I dont think its that far off, especially from a BE point of view.

It is disappointing that command isnt getting fixed until 2.4.
Ret paladins can wear mail/leather hunter/rogue gear as well. That hasn't stopped Blizzard from changing the itemization for Ret.


Holy wearing shaman mail is no fix. Holy paladins being balanced around shaman mail gear sounds even more ridiculous when we currently have custom-made healing plate for the spec.


The blizzcast makes it sound like Blizzards wants to have universal stat scaling for all specs of paladins. That's a very good thing, and I hope it goes into the game ASAP.
#2602SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azu
Spreadsheet Food Buff

Regarding the spreadsheet, I would like to request the addition of the +hit food buff from Spicy Hot Talbuk located at the bottom of the Character tab (Pots category). As it stands, the only option available is the +strength food buff. It seems to me that if one could derive greater than 20 strength (or an equivalent attack power) through use of other gems or item choices while maintaining 95 hit (or 142 without precision) from use of the food buff, this would improve the individual's DPS output so long that they continually renew the buff.

My sincere thanks go to everyone in this community, especially the author of the spreadsheet. The work hours pass much faster when there's something to theorycraft about.
#2603SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Agonar
Okay, i got a question about the Bellator Spreadsheet.

First, i never ever used Microsoft Excel nor i ever had to play around a Excel Sheet in my life. I downloaded the Free Microsoft Excel Viewer 2003 from the Official Microsoft Website but when i open the file it doesnt seem like i can click anywhere to make selection of gears, or even push a button to run the function attached to it.(button from the spreadsheet not the software). All i can do is select square in the table.

Any tips?
#2604SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3The Truculent Gentleman
Question about the spreadsheet.

First off, the spreadsheet is great. However, I am concerned with some of the results I'm getting (specifically valuing +hit items).

I input all my items and the stats show correctly. I am a 5/8/48 Retribution spec and have 3% hit from Precision and a total of 97 hit rating on my gear. This should put me above the hit cap and the spreadsheet should de-value hit rating.

However, in the Item Calc portion of the spreadsheet, it appears that it is still valuing hit rating. For example, it shows Blood-Stained Pauldrons to be an almost 11dps upgrade whereas the Pauldrons of the Wardancer are only a 3dps upgrade. The only way that could happen is if the spreadsheet is still valuing the +hit on the Blood-Stained Pauldrons.

However, when I add one more +hit item (say upgrade Greaves of the Bloodwarder to Legguards of Endless Rage, which adds 19 hit rating) it changes the preference to show the Pauldrons of the Wardancer over the Blood-Stained Pauldrons.

Now - what am I doing wrong? Am i correct you need 9% hit (95 hit rating with Precision) versus level 73 mobs? Or am I missing something here?

Considering I am going to be spending dkp in T6 content soon, I'd like to nail down this confusion.
#2605SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lochsloy
You are correct that the hit cap is 95 with 3/3 precision. Is it possible that the spreadsheet doesn't see you at the hit cap, due to the wrong item selected or perhaps a +hit socket bonus you are not hitting due to the spreadsheets socketing? If that doesn't work just try selecting socket til hit cap and it should correctly value gear with +hit on the item analysis.
#2606SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
Okay, i got a question about the Bellator Spreadsheet.

First, i never ever used Microsoft Excel nor i ever had to play around a Excel Sheet in my life. I downloaded the Free Microsoft Excel Viewer 2003 from the Official Microsoft Website but when i open the file it doesnt seem like i can click anywhere to make selection of gears, or even push a button to run the function attached to it.(button from the spreadsheet not the software). All i can do is select square in the table.

Any tips?
You can't use Bellator's sheet in Excel Viewer, because it requires that you change fields and input information to make its calculations. Excel Viewer is read only.

Originally Posted by The Truculent Gentleman View Post
However, in the Item Calc portion of the spreadsheet, it appears that it is still valuing hit rating. For example, it shows Blood-Stained Pauldrons to be an almost 11dps upgrade whereas the Pauldrons of the Wardancer are only a 3dps upgrade. The only way that could happen is if the spreadsheet is still valuing the +hit on the Blood-Stained Pauldrons.
When the item calculator runs on that slot, it replaces your [Justicar Shoulderplates] (with 19 hit rating on them) with [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] (with no hit rating on them). So when it evaluates the Wardancers, you're 17 rating below the cap, making it a marginal upgrade and making the [Blood-stained Pauldrons] a significant upgrade. You'll need to reach the hit cap through other slots for it to evaluate the Wardancers favorably.
#2607SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bellator
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
Regarding the spreadsheet, I would like to request the addition of the +hit food buff from Spicy Hot Talbuk located at the bottom of the Character tab (Pots category). As it stands, the only option available is the +strength food buff. It seems to me that if one could derive greater than 20 strength (or an equivalent attack power) through use of other gems or item choices while maintaining 95 hit (or 142 without precision) from use of the food buff, this would improve the individual's DPS output so long that they continually renew the buff.

My sincere thanks go to everyone in this community, especially the author of the spreadsheet. The work hours pass much faster when there's something to theorycraft about.
+hit food will be in the next version

Originally Posted by Theras View Post
When the item calculator runs on that slot, it replaces your [Justicar Shoulderplates] (with 19 hit rating on them) with [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] (with no hit rating on them). So when it evaluates the Wardancers, you're 17 rating below the cap, making it a marginal upgrade and making the [Blood-stained Pauldrons] a significant upgrade. You'll need to reach the hit cap through other slots for it to evaluate the Wardancers favorably.
The latest version of the sheet is actually slightly more sophisticated. When you the analysis replaces Justicar with Pauldrons of the Wardancer, it sees you are below the hit cap and re-gems your gear to make you hit capped and then does the analysis.

Originally Posted by The Truculent Gentleman View Post
Now - what am I doing wrong? Am i correct you need 9% hit (95 hit rating with Precision) versus level 73 mobs? Or am I missing something here?
You're doing nothing wrong. What you're describing actuall makes sens. Think of it this way:-

Situation 1). You have 9% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Since the Justicar shoulders have +hit, when you remove them your hit % reduces to lets say 8%. Thus replacing then with Bloodstained shoulders means that the +hit on this item is contributing to make you hit capped.

Situation 2) You have 11% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Without the shoulders you still have >9% hit, thus if you replace them with Bloodstained, the +hit from the Bloodstained is not contributing in any way since you are hit capped and the +hit is wasted (in upgrade terms)

Thus Bloodstained will prove a better upgrade in situation 1 than in situation 2 accounting for the difference you are seeing.
#2608SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
I have a few question pertaining to how to be more useful in raid.

First, i have read this entire thread, I have learned so much yet i feel like just knowing isn't helping me contribute as much as i could in my guilds attempts.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Please give honest assessments of this spec, I had a hard time last night Staying alive in ZA OTing the gauntlet adds with my current spec, i was hoping to gain a little more threat and survivability with this build.

It seems that i really have found a class and spec that i can play for hours on end and not get bored with, And my guild/raid leaders have been very impressed with what i can do on some fights, (mostly thanks to you guys and your Advice) i have gotten pretty good at timing my rotations so that CS is used ever CD and i never miss a AA without blood up, in short boss fights I have started weaving in Rank 6 consecrations ever few rotations and my DPS in the last Week has seen about a 10-12% increase, I also just got [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] however, it seems that in 25s i am still falling behind on complicated fights, is there something i can do to help the Raid more on these types of fights, where its not just straight up DPS ?
#2609SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3The Truculent Gentleman
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
The latest version of the sheet is actually slightly more sophisticated. When you the analysis replaces Justicar with Pauldrons of the Wardancer, it sees you are below the hit cap and re-gems your gear to make you hit capped and then does the analysis.



You're doing nothing wrong. What you're describing actuall makes sens. Think of it this way:-

Situation 1). You have 9% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Since the Justicar shoulders have +hit, when you remove them your hit % reduces to lets say 8%. Thus replacing then with Bloodstained shoulders means that the +hit on this item is contributing to make you hit capped.

Situation 2) You have 11% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Without the shoulders you still have >9% hit, thus if you replace them with Bloodstained, the +hit from the Bloodstained is not contributing in any way since you are hit capped and the +hit is wasted (in upgrade terms)

Thus Bloodstained will prove a better upgrade in situation 1 than in situation 2 accounting for the difference you are seeing.
This makes perfect sense. Thank you for explaining, and thank you for all the work on the spreadsheet!
#2610SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dram
What are you stats when you're tanking the gauntlet adds? When I do this I usually throw my tanking gear on so the warlocks can just seed spam.
#2611SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3The Truculent Gentleman
Originally Posted by Aiko View Post
I have a few question pertaining to how to be more useful in raid.

First, i have read this entire thread, I have learned so much yet i feel like just knowing isn't helping me contribute as much as i could in my guilds attempts.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Please give honest assessments of this spec, I had a hard time last night Staying alive in ZA OTing the gauntlet adds with my current spec, i was hoping to gain a little more threat and survivability with this build.

It seems that i really have found a class and spec that i can play for hours on end and not get bored with, And my guild/raid leaders have been very impressed with what i can do on some fights, (mostly thanks to you guys and your Advice) i have gotten pretty good at timing my rotations so that CS is used ever CD and i never miss a AA without blood up, in short boss fights I have started weaving in Rank 6 consecrations ever few rotations and my DPS in the last Week has seen about a 10-12% increase, I also just got [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] however, it seems that in 25s i am still falling behind on complicated fights, is there something i can do to help the Raid more on these types of fights, where its not just straight up DPS ?
I think you have to many points in protection, and not enough in Retribution. Consider this spec:
Talent Calculator

With that spec I was a successful OT for ZA Gauntlet, a Hydross add, Morogrim's murloc adds, the hunter pet on Karathress, tanking all of A'lar's phoenix adds, and all the small adds at Solarian. In addition, it allowed me to be competitive on dps when I was able to dps. In general it is a trash-tanking OT spec, but you won't be able to tank any bosses with it.

Edit - I am assuming you have a tanking set you are tanking with, rather than trying to tank in Retribution gear. I did all the above with T4/Badge/ZA level tanking gear.

The largest piece of advice i would say is focus on whatever your current role is - if you are dps'ing, focus 100% on that. Stopping to try to cast a heal is ineffective in retribution gear and really cuts your dps contribution. Trust your healers. Outside of situations where you might be cleansing raid members while CS/Judgement is on cooldown or being part of a BoF rotation on the MT during Vashj, or BoP help on Zul'jin P4, when you are dps go balls-out. That means haste potions, ideally a enhancement shaman, etc. A 'complicated' fight usually involves alot of movement, and these are actually fights Ret paladins can do well at. Our damage abilities are burst oriented - if you can run in, CS/Judgement, move out, back in when their CD is up, you can still maintain solid dps.

Edit on talent spec: You are human, so you would drop 1 point from divine strength for SoC.
#2612SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by The Truculent Gentleman View Post
Edit on talent spec: You are human, so you would drop 1 point from divine strength for SoC.
She's a BElf, altho I wonder myself why you wouldn't have SoC just in case you go up against another fight like Prince.

I kind of like a spec with imp RF just for the OT usefulness altho losing points in divine str just seems like a huge waste of potential dps? Any mana regenning abilities are usually godsends so I always stick with Benediction/Sanc Judgements so I can use haste pots instead of mana pots to make sure my dps stays constant.

If your tanks are really good and you have 3ish paladins in raids, dropping 2-3 points in fanaticism for something else isn't such a bad idea... it may hurt in aggro sensitive fights if you have trouble staying below tanks already.

TK is such a bitch to overall paladin dps though.. you sit on your hands for most of alar... a lot of the mobs whirlwind and there are lots of aoe mobs around the place that make casters really shine (conscerate + wings makes up here a little). Not to mention with average tanks on VR, you'll probably pull aggro around 30% and die a horrible death =]

i've found SSC to be a better show of a melee dpsers performance with less aoe and more single targets that dont move or require you to move when casters dont have to.

WTB a few more talent points to be more versatile while still maintaining a solid dps build =]
#2613SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Bellator,

We need to really port your work to a web page so we have this same exact system to use when we don't have excel that allows macro use.
#2614SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
She's a BElf, altho I wonder myself why you wouldn't have SoC just in case you go up against another fight like Prince.
I was bouncing back and forth with SoC i dont really go to kara much anymore. Prince is not an issue, SoC (rank 1) is extremely useful solo though.

I think you have to many points in protection, and not enough in Retribution. Consider this spec:
Talent Calculator
While the spec is a little more unconventional, i never really liked 5 points in BoM over benediction, Ill be replacing the last few pieces of my "Paladin" gear so i will have basically Base mana, anything i can do to increase its longevity is a plus.

The largest piece of advice i would say is focus on whatever your current role is - if you are dps'ing, focus 100% on that. Stopping to try to cast a heal is ineffective in retribution gear and really cuts your dps contribution. Trust your healers. Outside of situations where you might be cleansing raid members while CS/Judgement is on cooldown or being part of a BoF rotation on the MT during Vashj, or BoP help on Zul'jin P4, when you are dps go balls-out. That means haste potions, ideally a enhancement shaman, etc. A 'complicated' fight usually involves alot of movement, and these are actually fights Ret paladins can do well at. Our damage abilities are burst oriented - if you can run in, CS/Judgement, move out, back in when their CD is up, you can still maintain solid dps.
I whole heartedly agree, however, Since getting my new toy off zuljin i have been demoted to the (not-so-hot 2nd ZA group) and the OT( a warrior) is a little child who doesn't take instruction or criticism well, My contribution DPS wise is not the issue, if i didn't have to AOE tank the Adds, i would be 1st, (unless we take our resident Elemental shamans) the problem is if i focus on 100% dps we wipe because the other people are dunderheads.... This is slowly changing but they are so young its hard to coach them. So the elder guild members are left to pick up the slack. This is PAINFULLY apparent in 25s. Our situation is such that we cannot replace these people if we wish to even see the 25s right now.

What are you stats when you're tanking the gauntlet adds? When I do this I usually throw my tanking gear on so the warlocks can just seed spam.
I have nearly 12k hp in ret gear fully buffed, and about 15k in my tank gear and about 480 defense WITHOUT anticipation, we typically run with a good healing core so even if (for example) i had 4 warriors, and like 20 eagles on me while the rest of the raid works on the elites, i can usually stay up as long as they are all in front of me, and by the time the elites are dead they just AOE the eagles down, this is pretty typical, but with my 'current' build this is difficult because initial agro on the packs is hard to get when you have priests and shamans popping chain/COH and Pom/ES on people just as the fight starts(again the old people suffer the ignorance of the young)


Thanks a lot for your suggestions, I'm going to try and work a few more bugs out of my spec and I'll come back with the results after the next ZA. ciao
#2615SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
grayrest
Originally Posted by Handled View Post
We need to really port your work to a web page so we have this same exact system to use when we don't have excel that allows macro use.
It could be ported to a web page, but someone is/was working on porting it to Rawr.

My takes on the gauntlet tanking ret build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

PoJ is semi-replacable by a boot enchant and I don't remember any serious spell damage 3% avoidance would give you. For the ret, you could drop vindication for one more in deflection, but that's a lot of JoW mana return you'd be missing out on. I'm also assuming you have another pally in the raid for BoK. Not sure how much damage shield spec would save you, so there's a build with and one without it.

My version of raid utility is via being a switch healer:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Last edited by grayrest : 03/02/08 at 11:53 AM.
#2616SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aiko
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.....I'm also assuming you have another pally in the raid for BoK.
i like that build i may use that and build on it, Thanks.

The BoK is an issue i played with a few weeks back and since many of our healers are core from a few years ago they didn't re roll paladins, we have about 4 paladins who raid regularly, and i usually ended up the ONLY paladin in 10s, recently however we have had a lot more activity out of a few more paladins, so i feel i can drop BoK again. my current build is pretty cookie cutter for utility/DPS.
#2617SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elementz
Gems for Ret build

I have been searching this thread for some time now and have failed to find anything on proper gemming for 2.3 ret build. What gems should i use for my gear? (pve and pvp)
#2618SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Iconoclast
Gems? What ever you need to make your meta work, failing that strength gems.
#2619SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
Originally Posted by grayrest View Post
It could be ported to a web page, but someone is/was working on porting it to Rawr.
I'm working on it, like I posted a couple of pages back. Rawr will offer far more functionality to support it than a webpage could hope to. I didn't see any responses to it, so I haven't posted any updates here recently. But if I can get a few people willing to test an early alpha version, reply here or PM me.

Edit : Just to clarify, I'm not exactly porting the spreadsheet to Rawr. I'm using most of the maths in the spreadsheet to model Paladin DPS. Might seem like a difference in wordings, but my purpose is to make an accurate Rawr model that references the maths used in the spreadsheet, not to just port the spreadsheet itself.

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/03/08 at 4:18 AM.
#2620SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lïnk
i am also having trouble using the spreadsheet to gem and enchant the gear. I'm using excel 2007 but when i click on teh button it just highlights the button w/ a surrounding croping square. Am i not using the right excel? I'd really like to get the most out of the spreadsheet but i can't use some of the more important functions imo. None of the buttons that we r supposed to click seem to b working for me when i click them? U guys know what could b going wrong, help would b greatly appreciated. I'm trying to add some craftable items to compare that were not on the item lists. It just bugs the crap out of me that i can't use these great functions.
#2621SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
About the hit rating btw: It's 96 with precision, not 95. Raided with 95 yesterday, and I remember one miss on Morogrim. I'm not sure if there was a wws, if I can find one I'll post it here.
#2622SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Namoya
Edit: Apologize i mixed Spell Hit with Hit.

Last edited by Namoya : 03/03/08 at 9:30 AM.
#2623SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
There's no 1% permanent miss chance for melee. It exists only for spells.
#2624SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Namoya View Post
Meuble your 1 Miss wont show anything, since you will always have 1% Misschance which cant be overcome by Gear or Talents (on Bossmobs).
Only spells have a minimum 1% miss chance, doesn't apply to melee.
#2625SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
I'm working on it, like I posted a couple of pages back. Rawr will offer far more functionality to support it than a webpage could hope to. I didn't see any responses to it, so I haven't posted any updates here recently. But if I can get a few people willing to test an early alpha version, reply here or PM me.

Edit : Just to clarify, I'm not exactly porting the spreadsheet to Rawr. I'm using most of the maths in the spreadsheet to model Paladin DPS. Might seem like a difference in wordings, but my purpose is to make an accurate Rawr model that references the maths used in the spreadsheet, not to just port the spreadsheet itself.
Out of curiosity do you know if there a Mac client being developed for Rwar or is it Windows exclusive?

EDIT: Found it in the Rwar thread, never mind.

EDIT 2: If I can get the CrossOver thing working (so it will run on my computer) I'll be happy to test the program out.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/03/08 at 10:31 AM.
#2626SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Just when we thought that [Hard Khorium Battlefists] were going to solve our problems with having to PvP for PvE gear...

[Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword]

Link doesn't appear to be active yet, but here's the rundown:

Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand           Speed 3.60
(144.4 damage per second)
+69 Stamina
+52 Strength
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves your critical strike rating by 52.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 33.
Equip: Improves your hit rating by 21.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 98 of your opponent's armor.
I'm getting about 9 DPS more than Apolyon, the Soul-render with Seal of Command. Not to mention the 21 hit rating will allow you to resocket two of the hit rating gems in your gear to Spinels or Pyrestones, making the upgrade even more devastating. Too bad it's going to have a 2000 Personal Rating requirement, since I'm pretty damned awful at PvP.
#2627SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pazgaz
I can't download the spreadsheet from FileFront. Asked 2-3 friends to try as well and they all get the same error:

There was an error processing your request; it appears to be invalid or there was an error with your conection. Please wait while your request is retried...

If you need further help with a download, please contact FileFront support.

Is it hosted anywhere else?
#2628SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cromfel
If anyone wants to contribute to this topic (original post) please send all stuff to me in PM and I will add them. I bought house on january and Im renovating it so I cant follow up on everything. Just compile what you find necesary, throw it as PM to me and I will add it.
#2629SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
I'm getting about 9 DPS more than Apolyon, the Soul-render with Seal of Command. Not to mention the 21 hit rating will allow you to resocket two of the hit rating gems in your gear to Spinels or Pyrestones, making the upgrade even more devastating. Too bad it's going to have a 2000 Personal Rating requirement, since I'm pretty damned awful at PvP.

Did you remember to add sockets to Apolyon? The current version of the spreadsheet does not have the 3 red sockets (already PMed bella).

Without the sockets, S4 sword is ahead, with the 3 sockets (=30 str) Apolyon is ahead by ~20 DPS.

Still pretty small difference, depending on where my guild is at when S4 hits, I might be getting the S4 sword/mace until Apolyon.



Oh and unless there's a change which I missed, weapons only require 1850 rating, not 2k, at least that's how it's in s3 atm.

Though 2k isn't that hard if you get a good warrior/rogue and a druid/resto shammy and that's coming from my experience on cyclone battlegroup (EU), other bgs should be a cakewalk.
#2630SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Did you remember to add sockets to Apolyon? The current version of the spreadsheet does not have the 3 red sockets (already PMed bella).

Without the sockets, S4 sword is ahead, with the 3 sockets (=30 str) Apolyon is ahead by ~20 DPS.

Still pretty small difference, depending on where my guild is at when S4 hits, I might be getting the S4 sword/mace until Apolyon.
Well considering that you will need to be socketing for hit in full SWP gear somewhere, you can consider the hit rating on the S4 sword as 2 more spinels somewhere else in your gear instead of 2 lionseyes. In effect, this reduces the effective difference between the two by 1 socket. So the difference is 10 strength, which puts the two swords nearly even (for SoC) by my calculations.

If S4 launches with 2.4 that is going to be the weapon of choice for Alliance (and it has armor penetration instead of haste, yum). If we all clear SWP before we get a crack at the new PvP gear then it might be an even tossup.
#2631SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Diraphise
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
One thing that would be really nice in a later version is a "I can't access BT gems" box that will use blue gems instead of epics. Anyone short of T6 can't make use of the gemming buttons.
I agree, this would be very nice. I'm in the same situation and wonder if the spreadsheet might be overvaluing socketed items slightly.

Thanks for the racial selection; it's very handy.

Another neat option might be to allow for BoE craftables but not BoP ones.

Last edited by Diraphise : 03/03/08 at 3:42 PM.
#2632SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Well considering that you will need to be socketing for hit in full SWP gear somewhere, you can consider the hit rating on the S4 sword as 2 more spinels somewhere else in your gear instead of 2 lionseyes. In effect, this reduces the effective difference between the two by 1 socket. So the difference is 10 strength, which puts the two swords nearly even (for SoC) by my calculations.

If S4 launches with 2.4 that is going to be the weapon of choice for Alliance (and it has armor penetration instead of haste, yum). If we all clear SWP before we get a crack at the new PvP gear then it might be an even tossup.
Eh, well that's not strictly correct, but irrelevant I guess Apolyon > S4 that's all that matters
#2633SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Eh, well that's not strictly correct, but irrelevant I guess Apolyon > S4 that's all that matters
Ok, I should rephrase it a bit I suppose. If you use strictly best-in-slot gear from SWP (not BoP crafted stuff) you will be only getting 40 hit rating from gear (23 from [Hard Khorium Battlefists] and 17 from [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]). From there you can either "downgrade" gear to BT/Hyjal stuff to get more hit rating or socket for gems.

Using just the best-in-slot gear leaves you with having to find 56 more hit rating. By using the S4 Sword over Apolyon you gain 21 more hit rating, leaving only 35 more hit rating to get elsewhere on gear.
#2634SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Diraphise
I've found a bug in the current spreadsheet. If I click anywhere at all while calculations are running, even on empty space or the scroll bar, it starts calculating all items the same. Tabbing out is fine and it's easily avoided by just letting it run, but I thought I'd mention it.

I'm running Office Excel 2007.

#2635SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
I believe bellator has said it's a bug in office & there's nothing he can do about it? It was mentioned a few pages ago, at least. My solution has been to completely leave Parallels while it runs, but that probably won't help you.
#2636SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Ok, I should rephrase it a bit I suppose. If you use strictly best-in-slot gear from SWP (not BoP crafted stuff) you will be only getting 40 hit rating from gear (23 from [Hard Khorium Battlefists] and 17 from [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]). From there you can either "downgrade" gear to BT/Hyjal stuff to get more hit rating or socket for gems.

Using just the best-in-slot gear leaves you with having to find 56 more hit rating. By using the S4 Sword over Apolyon you gain 21 more hit rating, leaving only 35 more hit rating to get elsewhere on gear.
What gear are you using that's best-in-slot? Whenever I did the spreadsheet I was getting most of the Leather ArmorPen gear, and was able to get hit-capped without much problem. My HDD crashed last weekend and I haven't had a chance to reinstall Excel and take another look, however.
#2637SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
What gear are you using that's best-in-slot? Whenever I did the spreadsheet I was getting most of the Leather ArmorPen gear, and was able to get hit-capped without much problem. My HDD crashed last weekend and I haven't had a chance to reinstall Excel and take another look, however.
I never use leather, I'm talking about best-in-slot plate. My guild's rogues get first priority, then druids, then enhancement shamans, then everyone else, so I never even consider them for potential upgrades. The leather gear has hit on it (obviously) because rogues need it in large amounts. If you look at SWP plate gear the is an absolute dearth of hit rating, which means you're going to either have to use older gear or socket [Rigid Lionseye] in a lot of places. But hey, if your guild lets you bid against rogues more power to you, you'll be easily hit capped.

On another gear-related note, the stats for the S4 ret gear is also out (here) and the gloves have retained the bonus, meaning we won't be seeing that on our T6 again.
#2638SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
PVP gear being better than PVE gear makes me cry~ Especially since my raid's only a vashj kill away from going to Hyjal.

I'm going to hate the honour grind... rather seed spam with lock in AV =]
#2639SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Anarkii
Rawr

Got a lot of PMs regarding test Rawr - so I'll just put it up here. I'll make a detailed post later on how to use it, but for now this will do :
1. Start up Rawr, ensuring that the Retribution model is selected under the models menu.
2. Check that the armory is working fine, and Load your character from armory (You can skip this step if you want to manually select each item and enchant)
3. Depending on your connection speed, wait a bit while Rawr downloads your character details and the icons for each item if its not cached already.
4. Go to the enchants tab and verify that your enchants have been selected properly. Most of the enchants are in the cache, but a few might be missing.
5. Go to the Buffs tab and select all the buffs and debuffs that you want (Remember to select Sunder Armor and such, people often take it for granted)
6. Go to the Options tab and select Boss Armor and Skill Usage. Don't change the target level for now - it's assumed to be 73.
7. You can go back to the main tab to see the DPS breakdowns now and the comparison sheet at the right should be functional. You can compare items for each slot, you can compare buffs etc

Some stuff which is not implemented yet :

1. Blood Frenzy debuff
2. Some trinket procs and special bonuses(S3 gloves etc)
3. Configurable talents - A standard 5/8/48 build is assumed for now
4. Stat comparison based on itemization point cost.
5. Selecting Target Level
6. More Custom Charts
7. Some things I cant remember right now!

You can add any item you find missing manually. (In the final version, I'll of course have all the relevant items in the cache)
1. Goto Tools->Edit Items->Add..
2. If the item exists on Live, simply enter the id and it'll download the item for you
3. If it's a new item on PTR and it doesnt exist in the cache, enter the id, you'll get an error and it'll ask if you want to add the item manually. Select Yes and carefully fill in the details.

You can gem each item manually if you feel like by right clicking and editing it.

Remember to save your character after doing all this the first time so that you don't have to download and select all the options again. The next time you can simply load up your character.

Also remember that this is a very early version not intended for public release. So if you aren't confident of what to do if a program crashes and such, please wait for the final release version.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Rawr.Retribution.zip (1.31 MB, 59 views)

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/04/08 at 10:15 AM.
#2640SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Anarkii
Just a quick update - Stat comparison based on itemization point cost and Configurable talents have been completed. I'll put up that version tomorrow.
#2641SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thiris
I've noticed that I'm getting an invalid attachment message when trying to grab the zip file. I'm not sure what other methods that people generally use here to upload/store files, but it seems the EJ forums doesn't like the zip files.

I'm eagerly waiting to try this out and show it to the people in my guild.

Thanks for your hard work!
#2642SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Alborak
I've been reading through parts of this thread, and doing some searches, but i can't seem to find out whether it is better to use a Haste Potion or Insane Strength pot during your BloodLust + Avenging Wrath + trinket whatever else you can cram in burst.

Its probably in here somewhere, but after 4 post searches and some random page reads, i can't seem to find it and reading 100+ pages isn't really feasable for me sadly.

Is there a way to config bellator's SS to evaluate this or just a set rule?
#2643SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
Haste potion
#2644SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
I've been reading through parts of this thread, and doing some searches, but i can't seem to find out whether it is better to use a Haste Potion or Insane Strength pot during your BloodLust + Avenging Wrath + trinket whatever else you can cram in burst.

Its probably in here somewhere, but after 4 post searches and some random page reads, i can't seem to find it and reading 100+ pages isn't really feasable for me sadly.

Is there a way to config bellator's SS to evaluate this or just a set rule?
Haste pots are in the spreadsheet for sure, not sure about insane str. I know for BE's the haste pot is far and away the best, but I'll leave it to one of the alliance to tell you if the same holds true for them.
#2645SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
i think the question at hand here is if you're already attacking at double speed (heroism/bloodlust), you might think that instead of 1 extra swing from the haste pot, you'd rather have 240 ap on double the amount of normal swings (and a few CS in the potion window). i actually have not seen someone consider this situation, and its very much different than the standard "haste is better".
#2646SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Haste potion.

(Rough napkin math, don't trust it too much)

Assuming you're using a 3.8 speed weapon (2.66 with Bloodlust/Heroism) with Divine Strength and Kings you'll be looking at 288 AP from the insane Strength potion, or an increase of ~78 on each of your white hits. In the 15 seconds you have the pot you'll get in 5.6 autoattacks, so in most cases it will be 5 swings, 2 CS, and maybe 2-3 SoC procs. That is a total of 670-724 extra damage.

A haste pot gives you an extra autoswing. Your autoswing should be hitting harder than 670.
#2647SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
i think the question at hand here is if you're already attacking at double speed (heroism/bloodlust), you might think that instead of 1 extra swing from the haste pot, you'd rather have 240 ap on double the amount of normal swings (and a few CS in the potion window). i actually have not seen someone consider this situation, and its very much different than the standard "haste is better".
You don't really need to consider it, since Haste scales with your gear and AP doesn't (necessarily).
To humor you, however, I'll pull some napkin math out. The Insane Strength potion is 319AP for 15sec, and the Haste potion is 25.38% Haste for 15sec.
Let's assume you're Horde using a 3.5 speed weapon (since we are theorycrafting, and the purpose is to nickel and dime your DPS, I thought it'd be fun to use Seal f Blood). We'll say you're averaging ~1500DPS without all the buffs, so it's about 750DPS from White, 330DPS from SoB, and 300DPS from Crusader Strike. The other stuff is unaffected by either potion, so let's forget about it.
First, let's assume you're going to have Bloodlust and Avenging Wrath up, as well as Berserker's Call. So that's +30% Attack Speed (2.45sec), +30% Damage, and +360AP. I'm going to try and put everything in a 15sec window, even though all of these abilities last longer than that.
Bloodlust is approximately a 30% damage increase to your White+SoB DPS, and Avenging Wrath is another 30% damage increase on top of that. So we'll call those at 1,268DPS for white, 558DPS for SoB, and 390DPS for Crusader Strike. For the 360AP, that's 90 damage for your White+SoB attacks, and 85 damage for your Crusader Strikes.
In 15 seconds, assume 7 White swings, 7 Seal of Bloods, and 3 Crusader Strikes. So that gives us up to 1310DPS for White, 600DPS for SoB, and 407DPS for Crusader Strike. These will be our base values when comparing the two potions.
First, let's start with the Haste Potion - it's a 25.38% Haste bonus, so you'll have a 1.83sec weapon. In the 15 seconds, that'll give you about a 25.38% bonus in White and SoB damage, do you'll be at 1642DPS white, 752DPS SoB, and 407DPS for Crusader Strike; totaling an optimal 2801DPS peak.
Now, for the Insane Strength Potion. That's 319AP, so 80 damage to White+SoB and 75 damage to Crusader Strike. That puts 1347DPS for White, 637DPS for SoB, and 422DPS for CS; totaling an optimal 2406DPS peak.
I know I didn't factor in things like crit for the AP, but really, is any variable going to make up a theoretical 400DPS difference? If I made any mistakes, I apologize, but looking back I don't see anything that could tip the scale in favor of the Insane Strength potion. As for Seal of Command, I don't expect there to be as big a difference, but it still wouldn't mean Insane Strength is going to beat Haste potions, simply because of pure scaling factors.
I hope you enjoyed my 9am napkin math session wall of text as much as I did.
#2648SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Alborak
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Assuming you're using a 3.8 speed weapon (2.66 with Bloodlust/Heroism) with Divine Strength and Kings you'll be looking at 288 AP from the insane Strength potion, or an increase of ~78 on each of your white hits. In the 15 seconds you have the pot you'll get in 5.6 autoattacks, so in most cases it will be 5 swings, 2 CS, and maybe 2-3 SoC procs. That is a total of 670-724 extra damage.

A haste pot gives you an extra autoswing. Your autoswing should be hitting harder than 670.
Thanks, this seems to make enough sense to work.
#2649SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
actually, you should assume your first CS/autoattack comes at T=0, or more realistically 1. so you can figure 3 cs and an extra auto attack in that 15s.

so here goes my version of your math (using what i thought was the correct haste formulas)

swing speed normal = 3.8 = 4.95 swings
swing speed under heroism = 3.8/1.3 = 2.92 = 6.14 swings
swing speed, haste+heroism = 3.8/(1.3*1.254) = 2.33 = 7.44 swings

call it 9 swings with 78 extra dmg. or 700 dmg. throw in some seals too if you want to wave your hands a little bit. basically, if you autoattack for 1000+ then haste wins hands down since 1.3 extra swings would easily win.
#2650SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Oh shit, you're right. I always mess up haste because it acts so oddly compared to other effects (dividing my ass). Meh, being at work and not being able to check the wiki will do that to you (Just some friendly advice though, capitalize your post before you get reported).

Point remains, Insane Strength Pots suck.
#2651SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Modez
Ok, this is kinda off topic, but I was wondering what you guys thought about ret pally leveling? I have this guy thats telling me its a poj>crusade, I believe that 2 points into poj and 3 points into crusade is worth getting, although this pally is saying 1 point into crusade and 3 points into poj.
#2652SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grayrest
PoJ is better than crusade for anything non-raid simply because you spend more time running than you do fighting. Think of it this way: if a build with full PoJ and no Crusade gets you to a mob 1 second faster than a build with Crusade and no PoJ, the Crusade build would need to spend 97 seconds to catch up in damage for the 1 extra second the PoJ build gets at the beginning.
#2653SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3cesp00l
First off, this is my first time posting on these boards, so if I do something wrong, I apologize in advance.

Second, I've looked everywhere in this thread, and either I'm missing something completely obvious (which is probably the case) or it just hasn't been stated yet.

I'm looking for stat weighting, similar to the ones that are in the Enhancement Shaman thread (Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I). Is there a standard stat weighting for ret paladins?

I'm under the assumption that our weighting is similar to the enhance weightings, but with more emphasis on AP/Str and less on Crit/Agil since only Vengeance procs off crit and with 30 second refresh we really don't need much crit to keep Vengeance up.

Can someone point me in the right direction or something?
#2654SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
dividing my ass
Hell yeah!


Anyway, and on a completly unrelated topic: What about that 6.5 second CS guys?
I mean, seriously, what are the fights where you manage to hit every 6 or 6.5 secs with your CS? I've been raiding through SSC / TK / Bt last week, and there's pretty much no fight where I can achieve that.
Every fight, but for Teron (where the "burst him out, burst him out" aspect of the fight kinda freaked me out and made me fuck my rotations up) has its dps downtimes. On naj I'll be picking a spine, on gurtogg I will move for bloodboils, on al'ar, well, I hardly can keep judgements up, on Solarian same thing, and so on, and so on.
So I was curious. Is that 6.5sec CS just an ideal value, something you try to achieve knowing on most fights you won't, or do you guys really manage to get close to it?


edit: some wws, I never get under 8sec between each CS.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
#2655SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
People can get a 6.5 second CS via using a cooldown mod to help remind them to use the ability, as well as using a smart rotations using 9 second judgments.

Once you get more familiar and comfortable with encounters, you should be able to focus more on CS.


To the person asking for standard stat weighting for ret paladins, the ret spreadsheet helps with that via giving you the weights in the field "Strength Equivalency". If you want it in a 1.0=str scale, just take the numbers and divide.

For example, if you got AP = 2.2, then divide 1/2.2 = 0.45 to get a value for attack power.
#2656SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NPC
Is there a way to limit the gem choises for Spreetsheet?

Atm its using epic quality gem but i cannot buy them. I will be using blue quality gems or heroic epics.

Is there a way to limit it so that i calculates things acording to that?
#2657SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3cesp00l
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
To the person asking for standard stat weighting for ret paladins, the ret spreadsheet helps with that via giving you the weights in the field "Strength Equivalency". If you want it in a 1.0=str scale, just take the numbers and divide.

For example, if you got AP = 2.2, then divide 1/2.2 = 0.45 to get a value for attack power.
Thank you frmorrison! I got it working.
#2658SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
hawaiisb
So I have been messing with Bellator's spreadsheet as well as Rawr and since these programs are now advanced enough to measure hit cap ect I was wondering if someone could come up with the absolute 100% best gear setup including 2.4 gear for ret paladins.

The reason is I am at the level where all loot is available to me. I'm trying to get the best gear setup I can so that I can roll on the right gear. But it seems i tell my guild 3 items for me that are the most important and as soon as I get one of them and plug it in the spreadsheet flips around and shows other pieces of my finished gear as not being best in slot. A straight up list of best set of gear to have in combination would be great :p

edit: As for bugs or wrong input Bellator's spreadsheet looked perfect except for spelling errors on item names.
Rawr has some bugs tho. Vengeful hands dont have the 5% CS buff on them so they are actually ranked under t5 quite often for damage. I also noticed that it is constantly putting hit gear as best in slot even when I already have 100 hit rating and have told it that I have 3/3 precision. Also I would like it if there was a way to check if I have the gems to make my meta work other than just counting gems over and over every time I change gear.

edit2: So I came up with what I think might be the very best gear setup there is that has you end up being perfectly hitcapped.

[Helm of the Illidari Shatterer]
[Choker of Serrated Blades]
[Lightbringer Shoulderbraces]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Lightbringer Breastplate]
[Furious Shackles]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
[Red Belt of Battle]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Dreadboots of the Legion]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring][Band of the Eternal Champion][Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Berserker's Call][Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Libram of Divine Judgement]

Does anyone see any pieces that should be switched up for a human paladin with command? This is strictly pre2.4 gear. It's my goal before 2.4
This ends someone with 104 hit rating. Any better gear choices to lower that to around 95?

Last edited by hawaiisb : 03/05/08 at 12:12 AM.
#2659SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
Rawr has some bugs tho. Vengeful hands dont have the 5% CS buff on them so they are actually ranked under t5 quite often for damage. I also noticed that it is constantly putting hit gear as best in slot even when I already have 100 hit rating and have told it that I have 3/3 precision. Also I would like it if there was a way to check if I have the gems to make my meta work other than just counting gems over and over every time I change gear.

All of those will be implemented. I just started working on it last week
Edit : It certainly doesn't select hit gear as best in slot for me blindly, but I'll put up a more complete version later this week including many new features instead of doing small fixes.

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/05/08 at 1:37 AM.
#2660SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hawaiisb
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
All of those will be implemented. I just started working on it last week
Edit : It certainly doesn't select hit gear as best in slot for me blindly, but I'll put up a more complete version later this week including many new features instead of doing small fixes.
Overall I'm quite impressed. I can't wait to see where it goes.

Also another question I've had, is there a certain point from stacking armor penetration that makes CE beat Torch for alliance or makes executioner the best pve dps enchant?
#2661SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Amphi
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
on gurtogg I will move for bloodboils
Sorry to pollute the thread with this, but why does the melee group move for bloodboils? We never use that, and rotate with 3 ranged groups, so the melee can focus 100%. (However we might be slightly threat-capped from time to time). Not really an issue however.

And to bellator, keep the work with the spreadsheet up. Great resource, someone should try to convert it into a website however, for those who dont have access to excel.

Last edited by Amphi : 03/05/08 at 5:50 AM.
#2662SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Amphi View Post
Sorry to pollute the thread with this, but why does the melee group move for bloodboils? We never use that, and rotate with 3 ranged groups, so the melee can focus 100%. (However we might be slightly threat-capped from time to time).
Because the melee is threat-capped from time to time.
#2663SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
There's the threat issue yes, and there's also people dying in groups wich melee have to replace.
To frmorrison, thanks for your answer, but what I was asking was more "Wich are the fights were you actually manage to get a 6.5 cs?". There's Teron, of course, but I can't see much more.
#2664SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kris
RoS, Mother if you don't get ported, Council, Anetheron, Azgalor.
#2665SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by NPC View Post
Is there a way to limit the gem choises for Spreetsheet?

Atm its using epic quality gem but i cannot buy them. I will be using blue quality gems or heroic epics.

Is there a way to limit it so that i calculates things acording to that?
Right now I don't see a way to limit what is being used, but you can change the gems to the blue ones.

Here is how you change that gems being used in the dps spread sheet. Find the tab which has the Macros section in it. I am using Office Excel 2007, so for me it is under the View tab on the top and the Macro section is all the way to the right. Click on view Macros and pick the macro “Socket_Str” from the list and click edit. This will bring up the Microsoft Visual Basic editor for this button. Here you can edit any of the gems and change for example the “10 Str” gem to the “8 Str” gem.

You can also edit the hit gems in the same manner by finding the macro which has the hit gems in them and click edit.

Good luck and I hope this helps.
#2666SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
Also another question I've had, is there a certain point from stacking armor penetration that makes CE beat Torch for alliance or makes executioner the best pve dps enchant?
I'm at work so I can't use the spreadsheet to check theoretical DPS from this, but here is some napkin math.

There are already a few best-in-slot (or very close to) items with armor penetration on them.
[Cataclysm's Edge] is a good 335 armor penetration.
[Leggings of Divine Retribution] have 350 armor penetration.
[Choker of Serrated Blades] is another 175.
[Signet of Primal Wrath] is 126.

Combined those add up to 986 penetration, or 1826 with executioner up.

Assuming your boss has 4000 armor (27.47% reduction) after debuffs you will be getting:

Without Executioner up:
Armor: 3014
Damage reduction: 22.21%
Difference: 5.26%
With Executioner up:
Armor: 2174
Damage Reduction: 17.07%
Difference: 10.4%
In addition there are numerous sidegrade armor penetration items, such as [Grips of Silent Justice], [Madness of the Betrayer] (1 PPM, no internal CD, proc on specials) and [Stormrage Signet Ring]. Using the ring and gloves in addition to the other items up top add up to 1287 total passive armor penetration, 2427 with both the trinket and Executioner up.

With everything
Armor: 1573
Damage Reduction: 12.97%
Difference: 14.50%
I can't run a sim with the point where mongoose and executioner trade places right now, but its pretty safe to say executioner is going to be on top even only using a couple of the pieces above.

% reduction = ( Armor / ( Armor + 10557.3 ) ) * 100 is the formula I'm using by the by.

And it is worth mentioning that lamost nothing on SWP gear has penetration, everything is shoved into that godawful haste.
#2667SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Minor point of interest toastr... from what I understand, after the debuffs my raid uses on a fight like teron (imp expose armor, curse of reck, and faerie fire) the boss is at only 1800 armor for the raid. in that case, its important to be careful that you don't pass 0 armor with max armor pen, or you're wasting the stat.

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
And it is worth mentioning that lamost nothing on SWP gear has penetration, everything is shoved into that godawful haste.
Hey now, some of us like that haste stat, and I know that all of us are rejoicing at the generous amounts of expertise on the new items.
#2668SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Rawr: Got a lot of fixing/polishing/enhancements done in the last 24 hours This should be able to answer all of the common questions pretty easily.

Play around with the boss armor value(in options tab) and stack/unstack Armor Penetration gear and watch these 4 charts:
1. Comparison:Items:Mainhand
2. Comparison:Enchants:Mainhand
3. Comparison:Custom:Item Budget
4. Options:Stat Graph

Note that for charts 3 and 4, the evaluation of (adding) stats is done considering your current gear and buffs.

Besides those features, the changes in this version are :
1. The RED meta bonus calculated correctly (The requirements are still not enforced yet)
2. The S3 gloves bonus calculated correctly
3. Values of Libram of Avengement and Divine Judgement will be correctly evaluated. LoDJ is still considered under SoB, that'll be fixed in a later build.
4. All the talent choices should now be working properly
5. Blood Frenzy debuff should be working properly
6. The race-specific base stats are properly handled now.
7. Fixed bugs with SoC

Up next:
1. Fixing any bugs found
2. Building a complete itemlist cache including 2.4 items
3. Considering Set bonuses
Attached Thumbnails
mh.jpg  mhe.jpg  

itembudget.jpg  graph.jpg  

Attached Files
File Type: zip Rawr.RetributionV0.02.zip (1.21 MB, 151 views)
#2669SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
I hope you got a SoC and SoB toggle on the RAWR thing. The numbers right there look like they are SoC.

Anyway it looks amazing keep up the good work.
#2670SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yeah the screenshot is for SoC and I have a toggle.
#2671SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shalymar
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Yeah the screenshot is for SoC and I have a toggle.
I am downloading this now. I will test it out this evening and let you know if I find any bugs. It looks awesome so far. Thanks for taking the time to work on this as well as Bellator for creating the dps spread sheet.
#2672SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Handled
Originally Posted by hawaiisb View Post
So I have been messing with Bellator's spreadsheet as well as Rawr and since these programs are now advanced enough to measure hit cap ect I was wondering if someone could come up with the absolute 100% best gear setup including 2.4 gear for ret paladins.

The reason is I am at the level where all loot is available to me. I'm trying to get the best gear setup I can so that I can roll on the right gear. But it seems i tell my guild 3 items for me that are the most important and as soon as I get one of them and plug it in the spreadsheet flips around and shows other pieces of my finished gear as not being best in slot. A straight up list of best set of gear to have in combination would be great :p

edit: As for bugs or wrong input Bellator's spreadsheet looked perfect except for spelling errors on item names.
Rawr has some bugs tho. Vengeful hands dont have the 5% CS buff on them so they are actually ranked under t5 quite often for damage. I also noticed that it is constantly putting hit gear as best in slot even when I already have 100 hit rating and have told it that I have 3/3 precision. Also I would like it if there was a way to check if I have the gems to make my meta work other than just counting gems over and over every time I change gear.

edit2: So I came up with what I think might be the very best gear setup there is that has you end up being perfectly hitcapped.

[Helm of the Illidari Shatterer]
[Choker of Serrated Blades]
[Lightbringer Shoulderbraces]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Lightbringer Breastplate]
[Furious Shackles]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
[Red Belt of Battle]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Dreadboots of the Legion]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring][Band of the Eternal Champion][Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Berserker's Call][Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Libram of Divine Judgement]

Does anyone see any pieces that should be switched up for a human paladin with command? This is strictly pre2.4 gear. It's my goal before 2.4
This ends someone with 104 hit rating. Any better gear choices to lower that to around 95?
You have very close with what I run with right now difference being that I use a different Neck/Cloak/Libram I would say you have it pretty well hammered out for the best items until 2.4.
#2673SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
I'm getting some weird-ass stat displays from Rawr. Like for example, it thinks I have 12% to hit in gear that's actually just shy of 9%.

Head	Lightbringer War-Helm
Neck	Pendant of the Perilous
Shoulders	Lightbringer Shoulderbraces
Chest	Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece
Waist	Red Belt of Battle
Legs	Lightbringer Greaves
Feet	Vindicator's Scaled Greaves
Wrist	Vindicator's Scaled Bracers
Hands	Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets
Finger1	Ring of Lethality
Finger2	Violet Signet of the Master Assassin
Trinket1	Darkmoon Card: Crusade
Trinket2	Bloodlust Brooch
Back	Cloak of Darkness
MainHand	Torch of the Damned
Ranged	Libram of Divine Judgement
Character:		Imperatoris@US-Uther
Race:		Human
Health:		12317
Agility:		232
Strength:		931.7
Attack Power:		3675
Hit Rating:		11.96075
Crit Rating:		36.555
Expertise Rating:		0
Haste Rating:		63.30844
Armor Penetration:		4010
Total DPS:		1301.516
Crusader Strike:		331.2514
Seal:		265.886
White:		508.3181
Judgement:		91.39351
Consecration:		0
Exorcism:		0
#2674SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Minor point of interest toastr... from what I understand, after the debuffs my raid uses on a fight like teron (imp expose armor, curse of reck, and faerie fire) the boss is at only 1800 armor for the raid. in that case, its important to be careful that you don't pass 0 armor with max armor pen, or you're wasting the stat.
I was just taking the average "medium" armor boss with 8000 armor base. Between 5x Sunder (-2600), Faerie Fire (-610) and CoR (-800), your boss is losing 4010 armor (rounded to 4000 because it takes up less napkins). I also didn't include Improved Expose Armor because I forgot that it is better than sunder (oops?). Hang on a sec and I'll do numbers with the -3075 from that (I think).

I haven't seen a list of every boss in BT/Hyjal and their armor values yet, but of course reducing armor past 0 is useless. For most bosses though I don't think it is possible to get them that low without seriously gimping other stats (Teron is considered a squishy if I remember correctly).

Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Hey now, some of us like that haste stat, and I know that all of us are rejoicing at the generous amounts of expertise on the new items.
Silly Blood Elves.

EDIT: Ok, assuming a boss with a base of 8000 armor with Faerie Fire, CoR, and 5-point Expose Armor (improved) you're looking at a base of 3515 armor (24.98% reduction). Assuming the first scenario (986 passive penetration, 1826 with executioner up) you will be looking at:

Without Executioner up
Armor: 2529
Damage Reduction: 19.33%
Difference: 5.65%
With Executioner up
Armor: 1689
Damage Reduction: 13.79%
Difference: 11.19%

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/05/08 at 3:34 PM.
#2675SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
noth
My plan involves the choker of endless nightmares & the cloak of darkness instead of the cloak & neck you've chosen... far as I can tell from my personal situation, the serrated blades is a downgrade from my current pendant of the perilous, and with an epic gem I can't beat my cloak of darkness.

edit: this is in response to hawaiisb's loot list, by the way, sorry

Last edited by noth : 03/05/08 at 3:32 PM. Reason: clarification
#2676SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grayson Carlyle
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I haven't seen a list of every boss in BT/Hyjal and their armor values yet
http://elitistjerks.com/496799-post8.html
#2677SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
I'm getting some weird-ass stat displays from Rawr. Like for example, it thinks I have 12% to hit in gear that's actually just shy of 9%.
Do you have Improved faerie fire checked in buffs? That's the moonkin talent and adds 3% to hit. Make sure you only select Faerie Fire and not Improved if you don't have a moonkin.
#2678SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Do you have Improved faerie fire checked in buffs? That's the moonkin talent and adds 3% to hit. Make sure you only select Faerie Fire and not Improved if you don't have a moonkin.
No, I didn't. Shortly after posting that, however, it got into an infinite loop when I tried to modify an item and told me that I didn't have permission to modify items in the folder, and then crashed. Loading it up now doesn't reproduce the issue.
#2679SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
If you again get 12% hit with that setup, can you save the character to an XML and PM me the entire contents of it here.
#2680SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
How does the new Alchemist's Stone stack up as a trinket?

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...s-newstats.jpg

It offers 108 AP. [Bloodlust Brooch] works out to 118 AP if used every cooldown, so this looks like a slightly lesser version, with less spiky damage.
#2681SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle View Post
Ah wonderful. I didn't realize anyone had done it for T6 bosses. I'll make a nice big thing after raid tonight (afking on trash is dangerous in BT I've realized).

Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
How does the new Alchemist's Stone stack up as a trinket?

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...s-newstats.jpg

It offers 108 AP. [Bloodlust Brooch] works out to 118 AP if used every cooldown, so this looks like a slightly lesser version, with less spiky damage.
Depends how much you use mana pots. If you're chain chugging its easily the best trinket in slot now. If you're only using haste pots it is rather meh.
#2682SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mickeyknox
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
afking on trash is dangerous in BT I've realized
BT has trash?


maybe i really should afk less....

Also; does Rawr's Retribution tool automatically factor in Windfury totem? I don't seem to see it on the buffs list even though I see Weightstones and Sharpening stones.
#2683SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yeah, it automatically factors in Windfury right now. I'll make that an option in the buffs section soon.
#2684SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
If you attempt to add an item not found in the Armory database, Rawr will repeatedly throw up the following error message with no way of continuing to use the program or saving your work:

Rawr encountered an error while attempting to load a saved image, so is retrying. If you encounter this error multiple times, please ensure that Rawr is unzipped in a location that you have full file read/write access, such as your Desktop, or My Documents.
Rather irritating when I'm trying to manually import all of the items in Bellator's spreadsheet.

Edit: I cannot change socket bonus types for items I am manually entering from Sunwell. For example, I create a new item in the program for [Duplicitous Guise] by duplicating another item ([Crown of Anasterian]). I cannot change the socket bonus to hit rating, from crit rating.

Edit2: After closing and opening the application a few times, the socket bonus changed, but not to what I wanted it to. It's now showing a 6 stamina socket bonus instead of 4 hit rating.

Last edited by Theras : 03/06/08 at 1:30 AM.
#2685SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
@Theras
Get this patch and extract it on top of the existing rawr folder. There was a problem with handling of web requests in certain cases in the previous build which has been fixed.

Edit - The network code related to fetching items/icons appears quite problematic currently. I'm only handling the Retribution model of Rawr, so I haven't looked much into the core parts. I'll try to build a complete item cache with all 2.4 items soon-ish.

Edit 2 - Go to the images folder and delete any image with size 0. The socket bonus issue is a bug and I'll pass it on.

Edit 3 - I removed the patch. I'll put up a fresh build v3 tomorrow with some fixes to avoid confusion.

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/06/08 at 4:09 AM.
#2686SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
Thanks, that solved my problem in exactly the way I hoped it would.

And don't worry about building a 2.4 item cache; I was actually making one for personal use and I'm about a third done, so I can PM you my ItemCache.xml when I'm done (probably tomorrow-ish).

Edit: Feature request time! The option to flag an item as rare, epic, or otherwise doesn't exist in the GUI, you need to edit the XML file directly. Is there any way we can get that somewhere in the item edit window?

Last edited by Theras : 03/06/08 at 2:13 AM.
#2687SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Since accuracy is the main concern for any such tool, I have a few questions regarding the maths.

I considered Blood frenzy in Crusader Strike calculations. The spreadsheet ignored blood frenzy for CS while it includes it for Windfury and White Damage. Is there a reason for that?

Partial/Full resists for Seals/Judgements :
Partial Resist : All seals and judgements are considered at 96% Partial Resist mitigation in the spreadsheet, not affected by spellhit. I want to get more information on how to arrive at this 96% figure.
Full Resist : Both JoB and JoC are considered to be fully resistable based on spellhit. There have been a lot of reported differences between the nature of JoB and JoC resists, but I can't remember if we ever came to a consensus.
#2688SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
Take a backup of itemcache.xml if you have added items manually and restore it on top of this
v3
-Converted Windfury(and Improved Windfury) into buffs. You can now see the contribution of Windfury directly in the DPS summary section and you can also compare windfury with other buffs in Comparison:All Buffs
-Fixed bugs with 2 Handed specialization which was causing DPS shown to be lower than it actually is.

Also, this build has overall better network code. Manually adding items that don't exist in armory can still be a pain sometimes, so you'll have to bear with that for now. Adding missing items which do exist on live servers is straightforward though.

Known Issues
- The correct stats of Cloak of Darkness is included in the itemcache, but if it refreshes from the armory, incorrect stats are shown. This is because the cloak includes "Improves melee critical strike rating by 24" instead of "Improves critical strike rating by 24", so the parser doesn't recognize it properly. Will be fixed later.
- Libram of Divine Judgement adds AP even if using SoB. Will be fixed later.
- Issues with socket bonuses if you duplicate an item and try to change the socket bonus.

Edit - See [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft on this page for the latest version

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/06/08 at 9:04 PM.
#2689SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Diraphise
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
Right now I don't see a way to limit what is being used, but you can change the gems to the blue ones.

Here is how you change that gems being used in the dps spread sheet. Find the tab which has the Macros section in it. I am using Office Excel 2007, so for me it is under the View tab on the top and the Macro section is all the way to the right. Click on view Macros and pick the macro “Socket_Str” from the list and click edit. This will bring up the Microsoft Visual Basic editor for this button. Here you can edit any of the gems and change for example the “10 Str” gem to the “8 Str” gem.

You can also edit the hit gems in the same manner by finding the macro which has the hit gems in them and click edit.

Good luck and I hope this helps.
That worked for me, thanks.
#2690SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lïnk
For some reason it won't let me choose improved windfury. I don't have grace of air active so that shouldn't interfere w/ WF being put down. You know what the problem could be?
#2691SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I fixed it. At the last moment, I had changed both WF and Imp WF to weapon buffs, and only weapon buff can be active at a time. But you needed to check WF to enable Imp WF....so it was a vicious circle

I edited the attachment in the post above. Just a couple of minor fixes regarding Improved Windfury and Opacity of the Stat graph.
#2692SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mickeyknox
I haven't checked it yet since I'm at work still, but can you select both improved Windfury and improved Grace of Air for those lucky enough to have a shaman who actually twists them? :P
#2693SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Any way to manually add Executioner and Mongoose to the enchant list for main hand in Rwar?
#2694SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Scorpiodrush
Few Questions....

1. Can the Author of Rawr post the most updated version..(( NM found the link two posts up))

2. Whats best for a T5 content Ret pally with the World Breaker.
Mongoose, Savagery, or Executioner?

3. From an enchanter Ret Pally(tier 5 content), whats the Best Ring Enchant for dps (currently on a Retadin that is primarily warrior geared, and not geared for consecration.) +2melee damage on each ring, or +3 stats?

4. more Rawr Questions. Does Rawr take into account Windfury, Imp Windfury, Leader of the pack
I ask because our Melee dps often runs as a Rogue, Fury Warrior, Ret Pally, Enh Shammy and Feral dps druid. Why are Crystalforge shoulderguards not on the List? (maybe I need an item update?) This spurs from the fact that I don't see options for those buffs in my initial glance of the application.

Last edited by Scorpiodrush : 03/06/08 at 4:56 PM.
#2695SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hawaiisb
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
Any way to manually add Executioner and Mongoose to the enchant list for main hand in Rwar?
Yes, go to the enchants tab and change it under the mainhand section.
#2696SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lïnk
Mongoose and Executioner enchants are not listed as possible enchants for main hand weapons. I had downloaded the latest version of Rawr too. Can i add the enchant manually in any way?
#2697SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I should really stop working on Rawr when I'm tired! I changed the buffs/enchants section to get only relevant stats, but mongoose and executioner don't have any in-built stats in it, so they weren't picked up. I reverted this change till I find a better workaround.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Rawr.RetributionV0.03.zip (1.22 MB, 230 views)
#2698SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
Originally Posted by mickeyknox View Post
I haven't checked it yet since I'm at work still, but can you select both improved Windfury and improved Grace of Air for those lucky enough to have a shaman who actually twists them? :P
Yeah you can do that. I've included Windfury as a weapon buff while GoA is a totem.

@Scorpiodrush

Load up your gear then go to Comparisons:Enchants:Mainhand to see Mongoose vs Savagery vs Executioner. Leader of the Pack is the only buff not currently included. To be honest, since the feral druid(cat+bear) was already implemented in Rawr before I started on this, I was wondering if I'm missing something regarding LotP not being there. I didn't find anything however, so I'll add that soon. All other buffs should be working fine. Regarding Ring Enchants, I didn't implement Striking yet, but I think Stats is generally considered better.

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/06/08 at 9:34 PM.
#2699SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trakor
Thanks for working on Rawr, I'm liking it so far. Just one thing, could you please add Leader of the pack buff in there?
#2700SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Agonar
Im wondering if anyone ran some number for comparing the new Crusader Strike Libram VS Libram Of Avengement in 2.4? If not, then ill know what to do tonight.
#2701SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ariesz
The rawr.exe just crashes for me Am i doing something wrong? Should I not have WoW open when doing it?
#2702SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Even unbugged Avengement is better than the CS Libram in 2.4. If Avengement is still bugged(buff reapplied when refreshing judgements), nothing really comes close to it.

Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
The rawr.exe just crashes for me Am i doing something wrong? Should I not have WoW open when doing it?
What error are you getting? Shouldn't have anything to do with WoW. .NET Framework 2.0 or above being installed is the only requirement
#2703SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I was asked some questions about the stat graph, so just wanted to clarify briefly :
a) The origin in the graph is based on your current gear/enchants/buffs etc. So if you're hit capped, the hit line will be a flat horizontal one. Armor Penetration also tends to rise early because you'd normally have 4-5K combined ArP at X=0
b) The X axis scale is based on Itemization Points you further spend on a particular stat. The Y axis is the DPS increase. The number of itemization points further spent on a stat will be 10*X. So, say, ArP overtakes Strength at X=25. That'd mean spending 250 more itemization points to get to that point, or 250*6.67= ~1667 more Armor Penetration.
c) I'm aware of the size issues of the graph window on lower resolutions. I've changed the window to being sizeable in the next release, and I might look at making the graph scale to the user's current resolution in the future.

Again, thanks for all the bug reports and such.
#2704SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
gcbirzan
Bug/feature request in Rawr Retribution

Hm, is there a way to not get other classes' tier sets when looking for upgrades? I'm getting the rogue T5 leggings as an upgrade for my current ones... Yeah, they may very well be, but I don't really care. :-)

Last edited by gcbirzan : 03/07/08 at 7:40 AM. Reason: Fixed title
#2705SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Shalymar
I found some issues with the latest build of the Rawr application.

#1 When I download the program, pull my equipment over from the Armory, save it, then selected either:

Tools->Update Item Cache
Or
Tools->Load Possible Upgrades From Armory


I get this error message

Rawr encountered an error while attempting to load a saved image. If you encounter this error multiple times, please ensure that Rawr is unzipped in a location that you have full file read/write access, such as your Desktop, or My Documents.
Which I do. It appears the application goes into an infinite loop. I clicked the ok box but the error box reappeared with the same message. I had to go through the windows task manager to kill the application and restart it.

#2 On the Stat screen, the “Weapon Damage:” value is blank. I don’t know if you were planning on listing a value here.

#3 When I view my Stormherald, I noticed on the Item Editor screen under speed of the weapon it said 4. I tried to change this to 3.80 and the only options I found were whole numbers, 1,2,3,4, etc.


Suggestion:

When you have time, I know you are working hard on getting this tool ready for us, would it be possible to upgrade the tier sets, the pvp armor and any other items that will be upgraded in the 2.4 patch to the latest stats or add a toggle which will allow us to compare the changes from the live server to the patch server?

Last edited by Shalymar : 03/07/08 at 8:15 AM.
#2706SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Thanks for the reports.
@gcbirzan : There's no way to do that right now, and I know it's annoying to have items we can't use in the list. If you're using Rawr only for Retribution you can just right click the item and delete it from the cache. This feature will be implemented in the next major Rawr release, since it affects all models and it's not something I should handle specifically for the retribution module.

Shalymar : The itemcache included with the download includes some 2.4 items which don't exist in the armory. When trying to update those items from the armory, it gives an error each time it fails to load the data for a particular item. So it's not actually an infinite loop, but you'll get the error too many times. Just stay away from using those two features till we find a better way around this.

I've kept the weapon damage part blank for now because I wasn't sure if I want to display the base weapon damage+bonuses from enchants(like striking) or the weapon damage modified by attack power. I may end up removing it altogether, since it doesn't really serve much purpose.

The speed value is a problem with the Item Editor. Internally, the speed is correctly taken as 3.8, but the particular field in the item editor converts the speed to 4. This will be fixed.

Regarding updating items to 2.4 values, yeah building a complete 2.4 itemcache is the main thing left right now apart from bug fixes. But it's really messy to have multiple versions of certain items(like tier sets). I'll see what I can do.
#2707SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrado
rawr.exe just crashes for me too

error is:
This Application couldn't be started because the Applications Configuration is not correct.
To solve the Problem you should reinstall the Application.
#2708SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I'll see whatsup with that and put up another build soon including other changes
#2709SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Regarding updating items to 2.4 values, yeah building a complete 2.4 itemcache is the main thing left right now apart from bug fixes. But it's really messy to have multiple versions of certain items(like tier sets). I'll see what I can do.
I have a completed 2.4 ItemCache.xml, I'm just not at home to post it right now. I'll get a copy to you in a few hours.
#2710SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Nice. I was dreading the prospect of adding each of them manually.
#2711SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3gcbirzan
Two things. In the character stats, hit rating and crit rating are +hit chance and crit chance. Weapon damage is missing.

Also, the hit rating/chance is different from what the Blizzard UI says. It's generally under .1 more than what Blizzard says. Didn't do much testing though, will do more testing when I get home if you still need.
#2712SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yeah there's a minor issue with converting the hit rating to %, it has been fixed and will be there in the next build.
#2713SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Theras
I've attached my ItemCache.xml to include every 2.4 item and item change that I'm aware of. I'm still waiting on the PTR to come back up so I can verify whether or not the stats have changed on the following items:

[Girdle of Gallantry]
[Ruby Helm of the Just]
[Breastplate of Righteous Fury]

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure I got it all. If I missed any item changes - or made any mistakes - just fire off a PM. Please note that unsupported item effects in Rawr (like the [Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] +20 JotC bonus, or [The Hammer of Destiny]'s proc) are not yet modeled. Perhaps that'll be a project for another day, or perhaps it'll be incorporated into Rawr wholesale; who knows?

Edit: I'm in the process of updating icons for all of the new items - or exporting them from the patch MPQ files - so for now ItemCache.xml will be pretty ugly if you're making a Sunwell set. Not to say that Samwise Didier is ugly; he's actually a rather handsome man.

Edit 2: The item cache has been updated with pretty pictures. I've attached a new version of the ZIP that includes all the images.
Attached Files
File Type: zip ItemCache.zip (1.06 MB, 154 views)

Last edited by Theras : 03/07/08 at 7:12 PM.
#2714SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thiris
I'm getting an interesting error message even though the Armory is currently up. It seems to be happening on both my laptop and desktop.

#2715SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
The armory doesn't seem to show the character you asked for(assuming it was Faelir@US-Kalecgos). The World of Warcraft Armory doesn't show any character.

And Theras, thanks a lot for the itemcache. I'll run some tests with it using the latest build and put it up soon
#2716SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
New version!

- Almost complete 2.4 Item Cache(thanks to Theras)
- LotP added
- Minor Problem with Hit Rating fixed
- The weapon damage label now shows your weapon damage modified by Attack Power, 2H specialization and Imp Sanc Aura, if selected. This doesn't serve a lot of purpose, but should be the same as the weapon damage shown ingame.
- Labels added to the stat graph to indicate X and Y axis
- Various minor bug fixes

Please note that since a lot of the items in the cache don't exist in the armory, or have different stats(Tiers etc), using the Update Item Cache feature or such isn't recommended.

And people for whom Rawr.exe crashed earlier -- can you try this build? Just make sure you have .NET Framework 2.0 (or above) and give this another go.

Edit : New version posted. Look 3 posts below.

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/08/08 at 10:17 AM.
#2717SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Volrath50
Two quick questions:

In a raid, if I can only keep one judgement up for whaterver reason (lack of paladins, can't get other pallys to judge) should it be JoW, or JotC. I tend to go with JoW, as 120mp5 seems a lot more important (especially to myself). However, I'm not really sure how badly other classes run oom, and JotC can save those tragic 2% wipe situations.

And is there any way to make my judge/reseal macro have a 9 second timer on it? I sometimes find myself pressing it too soon, wasting mana and a gcd just putting SoB back up, which is annoying.
#2718SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3notanumbercruncher
I have a question about the Libram of Righteous Power. It's going from adding 18 damage to Crusader Strike, to 36 damage to Crusader Strike. Is that going to make it better than the Libram of Avengement or the Libram of Divine Judgement?
#2719SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
v1.05

- Added option to Enforce Meta Requirements
- Minor Bug Fixes

Open Issues :
1. Misery is being assumed. Will take it from the buffs section in the next build
2. The spell damage gain from Judgement of the Crusader is assumed. Improved Judgement of the Crusader in the buffs section is used to toggle the 3% crit. But I'll take the spell damage part also from that checkbox in the next build.
3. Haste Potions and Insane Strength potions not yet implemented. This will be done in the next build.Like Bloodlust and Avenging Wrath, I'll model this as an uptime depending on the length of the fight.
4. Some bugs and feature requests people made in the last 3 pages are still pending.
5. Set Bonuses not implemented

Also TODO: Model the trinket "Blackened Naaru Sliver" accurately.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Rawr.Retributionv1.05.zip (2.16 MB, 726 views)

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/08/08 at 11:20 AM.
#2720SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Coming back to the core modeling, does anyone really think having a mana gain and expenditure model in Rawr will help a lot? Personally, I never have mana problems(on a target with JoW up) unless I spam max rank consecration, or it's a fight with mana burns(Kaz/Mother). But I realize it may be different for alliance paladins.

Currently developing this part is on the horizon, but I'm giving it lower priority than other bug fixes/feature enhancements.
#2721SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Myrado
same error again :/

.NET Framework 2.0 is installed



any other programs that must be installed? Service Pack2 ?

Last edited by Myrado : 03/08/08 at 11:45 AM.
#2722SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
v1.05

- Added option to Enforce Meta Requirements
- Minor Bug Fixes

Open Issues :
1. Misery is being assumed. Will take it from the buffs section in the next build
2. The spell damage gain from Judgement of the Crusader is assumed. Improved Judgement of the Crusader in the buffs section is used to toggle the 3% crit. But I'll take the spell damage part also from that checkbox in the next build.
3. Haste Potions and Insane Strength potions not yet implemented. This will be done in the next build.Like Bloodlust and Avenging Wrath, I'll model this as an uptime depending on the length of the fight.
4. Some bugs and feature requests people made in the last 3 pages are still pending.
5. Set Bonuses not implemented

Also TODO: Model the trinket "Blackened Naaru Sliver" accurately.
Really good job, much apreciated. Btw, Cloak of Darkness is missing his crit, making it to be much worst when is actually close to best in slot.

Keep the good work!

Last edited by Deimosfobos : 03/08/08 at 12:07 PM.
#2723SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yeah I posted about Cloak of Darkness a day or two back. It is because of its irregular tooltip ' Improves melee critical strike rating' instead of ' Improves critical strike rating'. For now, right click and edit it manually and set the Crit to 24. I'll fix it later.
#2724SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Originally Posted by Volrath50 View Post
Two quick questions:

In a raid, if I can only keep one judgement up for whaterver reason (lack of paladins, can't get other pallys to judge) should it be JoW, or JotC. I tend to go with JoW, as 120mp5 seems a lot more important (especially to myself). However, I'm not really sure how badly other classes run oom, and JotC can save those tragic 2% wipe situations.
Depends on the fight in my opinion.

If it's a farm raid, may as well stick to JoW and save a few mana pots for the raid, in particular if it's a long fight.

Or a shorter fight, or a progression raid, stick to JotC for the 3% crit for everyone.

Not normally an issue I encounter myself to be honest, at least 3 Paladin's in every raid for us, the Holy guys always do a Wisdom and a Light.
#2725SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrado
same error with the version you send me per pm @anarkii
#2726SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Alright, check your PM again. Also, since this is Retribution thread in general, and not a Rawr.Retribution thread, I don't want to crowd this with posts resolving problems with Rawr. You are free to post general feedback about Rawr.Retribution and things you'd like to see, but please PM me directly about issues with starting Rawr, loading files and all that.
#2727SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thiris
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
The armory doesn't seem to show the character you asked for(assuming it was Faelir@US-Kalecgos). The World of Warcraft Armory doesn't show any character.

And Theras, thanks a lot for the itemcache. I'll run some tests with it using the latest build and put it up soon
That's really strange about the links, as I can search and find the armory on them.

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory
#2728SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deimosfobos
Also, how is Expose Armor (2000 ArPen), better than 5xSunders (2600 ArPen)? And Improved Expose Armor (3075 ArPen) is about 70% better than 5xSunders, i know ArPen scales very well, but i think something is wrong there...
#2729SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Yeah, that is a known problem. Uncheck Sunders from the list of buffs and you'll get the accurate result. While comparing Sunders to Expose armor in the comparison chart, since you'd most likely have Sunders checked already, Expose Armor shows ridicuous benefits (The fact that Sunders and Expose can't exist at a time is ignored during the comparison)
#2730SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Antishekka
well, i have watched alot of these forums, and saw the post about group setups, but gotta take it up again..
i am allways set to the mt group when we are 2 rogues.. that means the melee group is 2 rogues, warr/shaman/feral druid..
this bugs me, aint it bether having me in the group somehow?
this also makes me have to use devo aura...

Last edited by Antishekka : 03/09/08 at 5:06 PM.
#2731SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Judge
Yes, you are better in that group, there's oodles of math in this very thread proving why.

Optimally, the Feral Druid should be switched out for you and he should be put into the Hunter group...this should boost both groups DPS noticeably. As an alternative, you could go in for a rogue as well and still boost the group's DPS, but for best overall Raid DPS, you should go in for the Feral.

If your Raid's leaders aren't seeing this, they either aren't up to speed on how to maximize Raid DPS, or they're playing favorites.
#2732SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
grayrest
You don't HAVE to be in the melee group. You do need windfury to do respectable dps.

Our guild is rather short on warriors, so we normally have a pally and druid tanking. I regularly get stuck in the tank group for the threat boost and I get a resto shaman or second enh shaman to drop WF for me. Sometimes the shaman has to get swapped into the spriest group and my dps drops like a rock. My raid leaders know what to expect out of me in both situations: when we were still figuring out exactly what to do with me as a ret pally, I went on a ZA run using the aforementioned setup. Did 980 dps on bear and 670 dps on lynx with the only difference being the resto shaman. I'm not happy when I'm doing terribad dps, but I trust the raid leaders to set up the raid to maximize our chances at success.

I personally don't think we should be so dependent on WF for our damage. The cleanest way to remove this dependency is to give us an imbue that increases our attack speed by 15%. This doesn't give us any more burst (which imo is the reason we don't do more damage) and, being an imbue, doesn't stack with WF. The question is whether this would be a good or bad thing. The good is obvious, the bad is that we'd have a decent chance of getting regularly kicked out of the melee group. I don't expect we'll get it (the arms warrs would probably complain to no end) but it'd be extremely convenient for me.

Last edited by grayrest : 03/10/08 at 1:07 AM.
#2733SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
The cleanest way to remove this dependency is to give us an imbue that increases our attack speed by 15%.
As well as making Seal of Command scale with haste/giving Alliance Seal of Blood.
#2734SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
I feel dumb for asking, but... what do you mean by "give us an imbue"? I'm familiar with the action of imbuing, but not the noun... Prinsesa - I've given up hope. I'm convinced that they're gonna leave it the way it is till the xpac, far as I can tell. :/
#2735SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mex
An imbue is a buff that's applied directly to a weapon, such as rogue poisons, sharpening stones, mana oils, windfury/flametongue totems, and shaman windfury/rockbiter/flametongue/frostbrand weapons. They don't stack with each other, so giving ret pallies an imbue that increased their DPS would mean that they couldn't use it and windfury at the same time. A 15% speed imbue would, I believe, be less DPS than windfury, but not enough less that it crippled retadins that didn't get WF.
#2736SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tassadarr
I'm currently a prot pally with full epics, raiding SSC+TK, guild is working on kael... i have Badge of Justice x650, that are all going towards ret when 2.4 comes around, but will i be able to do decent damage? i keep reading that haste rating doesn't affect seal of command procs, and based on that it, haste rating seems worthless (although i'm not sure how much of a Retadins dps comes from white damage, so i could be wrong).

is haste rating worth getting as alliance? i read that seal of blood is a lot better than seal of command, and will become even better when you can get haste, is there any talk of blizzard changing that? seems ridiculous that because i chose alliance, i can't do as much damage as a paladin that chose to be horde.
#2737SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bomzix
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
As well as making Seal of Command scale with haste/giving Alliance Seal of Blood.
Plz correct me if I'm wrong but SoC using the PPM mechanic uses your base weapon speed to determine the base % of a proc. Any extra attacks you gain will also use this base % to proc meaning that if you get more you will get more procs. This is true for WF, CS, Reckoning attacks, Bloodlust/Heroism, Drums, etc...

Isn't it also true for Haste rating?
#2738SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Habaka
Now that was really odd... firing up the latest version of Rawr gives me the splash screen for some 1 second or less and then dissappears.... after which nothing happens, I know it's not much to work on, but since nothing happens, I'v got nothing to give, anyone had the same problem?
#2739SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Anarkii
A couple of guys reported such issues. I'll post the same version again building it in Debug mode this time instead of Release mode(that's what I had been doing till the current version).

Edit : Here it is for anyone who had problems with the previously released version. You might want also want to delete any files(if the folder exists) at C:\Documents and Settings\<Username>\Local Settings\Application Data\Rawr (or equivalent) which could be causing issues.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Rawr.Retributionv1.05.zip (2.14 MB, 1247 views)

Last edited by Anarkii : 03/10/08 at 10:05 AM.
#2740SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Originally Posted by bomzix View Post
Plz correct me if I'm wrong but SoC using the PPM mechanic uses your base weapon speed to determine the base % of a proc. Any extra attacks you gain will also use this base % to proc meaning that if you get more you will get more procs. This is true for WF, CS, Reckoning attacks, Bloodlust/Heroism, Drums, etc...

Isn't it also true for Haste rating?
SoC's proc rate is based on hasted weapon speed, which means that haste has no effect on SoC's dps.
#2741SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bomzix
Is it a general rule for all procs? From oomkin's man regen proc to warrior's mace specc?
#2742SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
PPM mechanics are a bit inconsistant. Pre-TBC weapon enchants are based on unhasted speed, while TBC enchants are based on hasted speed. I suspect all PPM spells are based on hasted speed, but I haven't seen any testing on anything other than SoC and Shamanistic Rage, and SR is strange -- some testing has shown it to be PPM-based, while other testing has shown more mana returned with faster weapons, which is the opposite of what should be true if it's PPM.
#2743SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Alazin
Is there a starting guide somewhere on the site? Ive read the first 20 or so pages and the last 10 of these... a lot of the info is for hardcore end game min/maxing but is there any guide that you all know of for lower end gearing like 60-70 + kara/pvp... covering valuing of stats in order of priority and basic rotations?

Its very easy for newer players to get lost in 106 pages of forum thread, so any help you can offer would be great .
#2744SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
This thread is for PvE DPS Theorycrafting. The purpose isn't to discuss PvP or low-level raiding, but rather the larger scale mechanics and gear choices at the high spectrum.
Also, I'm starting to see a lot of bad posts, so I'm going to link this thread, hoping to solve the problem.
Elitist Jerks - Announcements in Forum : Public Discussion
#2745SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
Meh, he does have a point that this is a very long thread yet we haven't had any kind of FAQ or basic info section in the front post yet. Having something that just says "Strength is better than crit damn it" up there would cut a lot of the spam out. I'm on break this week so I'll write something up if no one else wants to.

Anywho, Hortus finally responded to our continuous whining on the PTR forum as to why the T6 socket bonuses are going to remain Spell Damage.
We do not change existing socket bonuses on items because of a technical limitation on the socketing system.

(Source)
EDIT: He clarified with the following afterwards.

More or less. It messes up the gems in currently socketed items.

(Source)
Interesting response since there have been numerous examples of them changing socket bonuses. Oh well, Spinel x5 in my shoulders and chest still it seems.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/10/08 at 3:25 PM.
#2746SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
What about the bigger problem of having a terrible 4pc t6 bonus? Any word on that from the blues?
#2747SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
What about the bigger problem of having a terrible 4pc t6 bonus? Any word on that from the blues?
Every time I post about it the thread gets deleted or moved. I'll try again later tonight.
#2748SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ankler
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
What about the bigger problem of having a terrible 4pc t6 bonus? Any word on that from the blues?
Does anyone actually use Hammer of Wrath in melee range? As a Blood Elf I don't even bother casting it because I'd most likely lose DPS regardless from resetting the swing timer and the fact that it's based off of spell attributed that I don't have.
#2749SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
HoW is always a DPS loss. It is almost always less DPS than Consecration due to melee pushback. Even with the 4-piece bonus it is never worth using. Don't use it.

It should have never been tied to our 4-piece bonus and it has long been a source of contention that we have the most useless set bonus in the game (though the resto Druid is arguably as bad).

As of yet, no one from or representing Blizzard has said anything regarding it.
#2750SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ankler
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
HoW is always a DPS loss. It is almost always less DPS than Consecration due to melee pushback. Even with the 4-piece bonus it is never worth using. Don't use it.

It should have never been tied to our 4-piece bonus and it has long been a source of contention that we have the most useless set bonus in the game (though the resto Druid is arguably as bad).

As of yet, no one from or representing Blizzard has said anything regarding it.
The only way I could see HoW being useful while in melee range is making it an instant and making it scale with both spell and melee attributes. If you make it based solely of melee then it will hurt holy/prot paladins and if it continues to be forced on us with only spell scaling then it's still useless beyond PVP. You could make it an instant cast making it worth throwing out there since it won't reset the timer, but if it's instant it would imbalance it for PVP.
#2751SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Even if what they said was true about socketed gems being affected, I really dont think there will be anyone disappointed with a change in bonuses that led to a buff ie -> str.

How convoluted must this programming be if they can't change one value. Lazy asses more like it.
#2752SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ankler
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Even if what they said was true about socketed gems being affected, I really dont think there will be anyone disappointed with a change in bonuses that led to a buff ie -> str.

How convoluted must this programming be if they can't change one value. Lazy asses more like it.
Well they changed socket bonus' before that. An example of that would be one of the warrior T4 helms. There was an issue on the PTR about the bonus being different then what was displayed, but later on it was fixed I believe and the bonus had changed.
#2753SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Even if what they said was true about socketed gems being affected, I really dont think there will be anyone disappointed with a change in bonuses that led to a buff ie -> str.

How convoluted must this programming be if they can't change one value. Lazy asses more like it.
As it was explained to me, you can somehow still have 2 bonuses. If you socketed for the bonus with the old gem setup then they changed it and the gem colors for the new bonus remained the same you would get the effects of both bonuses. I have no idea how it happens, but as it is right now I don't think 4 spell damage in addition to a useful bonus would change a lot of things. Its a shoddy argument at best, and it really comes down to very bad programming.
#2754SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lookit
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
Even if what they said was true about socketed gems being affected, I really dont think there will be anyone disappointed with a change in bonuses that led to a buff ie -> str.

How convoluted must this programming be if they can't change one value. Lazy asses more like it.
Originally Posted by Ankler View Post
Well they changed socket bonus' before that. An example of that would be one of the warrior T4 helms. There was an issue on the PTR about the bonus being different then what was displayed, but later on it was fixed I believe and the bonus had changed.
The issue, Hortus went on to explain, is that changing the socket bonus of existing items that players have already socketed does bizzare things. So changing the socket bonus on something before it's hit the live realms is entirely doable, but changing the bonus afterwards can cause issues for players that already have the item and have socketed it.
#2755SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
Thanks for linking the thread btw, I'm always amazed about how stupid blues can sounds... we don't have much of them on french boards. Meh. Not gonna complain. I hope they'll still do something about that damned 4 pieces bonus.
#2756SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Well I had a... "mishap" on the Blizzard forums, so if someone wants to bring up the 4-piece there for me it would be super. You can copy/paste my old post if you want (or just bump it, even though it is on the Paladin forums and won't be read by a CM there). Otherwise I will need to wait until 7 PM local time tomorrow to throw it up. Either way.

EDIT: I also updated the JoW list for the 2.4 changes. If there aren't any mechanics changes within the next few days I will post it here.
#2757SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by Lookit View Post
The issue, Hortus went on to explain, is that changing the socket bonus of existing items that players have already socketed does bizzare things. So changing the socket bonus on something before it's hit the live realms is entirely doable, but changing the bonus afterwards can cause issues for players that already have the item and have socketed it.
Bizarre things due to shoddy programming... esp how one value being changed into another causes 'bizarre things'. The gems socketed should not effect anything other than the players stats and the flag to see if they meet the bonus socket in which case the player receives another value added to their stats. That's only 2-4 values (depending on socket number), the gem colours and the socket bonus... and a flag as to whether or not the gem colours fulfill the criteria for the socket bonus to activate.

There is nothing complicated about that logic. It's just pure bs from whatever angle.
#2758SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
I posted Toaster's thread in the PTR realm here. Bump it.
#2759SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Chicken
Originally Posted by Lookit View Post
The issue, Hortus went on to explain, is that changing the socket bonus of existing items that players have already socketed does bizzare things. So changing the socket bonus on something before it's hit the live realms is entirely doable, but changing the bonus afterwards can cause issues for players that already have the item and have socketed it.
Just to add a bit to this, the actual effect of changing an existing items socket bonus is that you actually end up getting both bonuses at the same time. I used a [Justicar Faceguard] for ages which provided both +4 block rating (Old socket bonus) and +4 dodge rating (New socket bonus). Both bonuses got added on the character screen as well; I didn't test whether it applied to actual combat however. Oddly when I linked the item or players /inspected me only the new bonus was displayed.

Edit: Now I think about I do seem to remember having my amount of defense/dodge go down below what it actually was at random times back when I used this helm. I blamed it on the bug around at the time which caused some bonuses with the same effect to not stack, but it could be related to having a socket bonus twice on a single item. Unfortunately I don't have the helm any more so I can't try it out. The defense/dodge going down would be, if it was linked to this, indicative of it somehow pushing off the normal enchant on the item when you get double socket bonuses, which would be a pretty undesirable effect.

Last edited by Chicken : 03/11/08 at 8:31 AM.
#2760SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
I posted Toaster's thread in the PTR realm here. Bump it.
I bumped it... it seems the final point was cut off in the conclusions though, you might want to fix that

Also, I know that the new BS/JC patterns drop off trash in SWP, but does anyone have any idea on the chance? My guild has been running sunwell since it was up on PTR, and we have yet to see any drops after the first week or so of these patterns.
#2761SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3akdjr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I bumped it... it seems the final point was cut off in the conclusions though, you might want to fix that

Also, I know that the new BS/JC patterns drop off trash in SWP, but does anyone have any idea on the chance? My guild has been running sunwell since it was up on PTR, and we have yet to see any drops after the first week or so of these patterns.
It seems the poor thread has been deleted again. In the last few minutes too, since I was just reading the first page! I'm going to take the optimistic approach and assume that they know the 4 piece bonus is useless.
#2762SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kazekan
One thing I've been trying to do lately is get a good idea of what kind of DPS I should be doing as Ret since I want to be our guild Ret pally for 2.4 (if they even go w/ one). Rawr has been a great utility for giving me an idea of about how much DPS I "should" be doing, however I really don't have in-game experience to compare it to. I've done one Kara run and pulled 730 overall DPS w/ just WF and a Warrior in the group... no other buffs, not even Might/Flask/Food/PAW etc. I figured that was decent for my first Ret run ever, but definitely not where I'd like to be.

I've read tons of posts about how such-and-such Pally did X amount of DPS, and have even found some good WWS reports for non-gimic fights, however there's still one thing that always seems to be left out... group composition. It's assumed you have an enhance shaman (although they don't need to be enhance to supply WF in the end of course), but other than that... what do your raids normally run with? I'm trying to compare exact group comps on similar boss fights that come out to be a certain amount of DPS so that I can plug in the info into Rawr and see where I should stand. I know what would obviously give the most DPS, just not what gives everyone their DPS #'s.

A Ret pally friend of mine that does TK/SSC pulls around 1200 DPS nightly, however they have a stacked melee group, so that's hard to compare. Our raid very rarely brings a feral druid, and we only bring one hunter who happens to be Survival. So, it's kind of hard to realistically compare our two DPS outputs. My guild is clearing BT/Hyjal, and apparently some of the officers are contemplating a Ret pally for 2.4, although they've been extremely hesistant to do so even after 2.3.

Anyways, Rawr tells me I'd do around 1150 DPS w/ my current gear and a group makeup of Fury War/Shaman/X/X. Any chance I could get someone to post the group comp. of one of their WWS reports for some stuff in BT/Hyjal? For example, I noticed Zurm was pulling almost 1300 (1277 to be exact) DPS on Illidan, but what was his group comp. and what debuffs did he have on the mob? My raid doesn't even use FF, and most of the time we don't even use CoR so /shrug. (Edit: Yes, I know he uses SoB and not SoC, just thought I should clarify).

Thanks for the advice in advance!


On a side note, I have some friends that work at Blizzard in a few different departments, one of them being a programmer (not really sure which aspect he programs though), so I'll see if I can get a behind-the-scenes idea of exactly why the socket bonus is apparently such a huge pain. Maybe I can get some technical jargon from him to help give a better explanation We'll see.
#2763SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
I think you're going to see most folks answer to group composition will be about the same. "We had an enhance shammie, a DPS warrior, a rogue, and maybe a druid". For what it's worth I top out at just shy of 1500.

Wow Web Stats
(melee group is dahri, arrete, nothe, neone, and either tangent or rogueelf, I don't recall)

WWS Loading...
(melee group is dahri, nothe, euber, neone, and rogueelf)

That's pretty standard for our fights,... dahri, myself and euber are always grouped, and we swap rogues & druids around as needed.

It's pretty unfortunate about the fairy-fire and CoR, though. that armor reduction buffs ALL your melee DPS. With us, if we only have 2 'locks, we drop one of the caster curses rather than CoR.

Good luck breakin' into the melee DPS role, it's a lot of fun!
#2764SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grayrest
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
One thing I've been trying to do lately is get a good idea of what kind of DPS I should be doing as Ret since I want to be our guild Ret pally for 2.4 (if they even go w/ one). Rawr has been a great utility for giving me an idea of about how much DPS I "should" be doing, however I really don't have in-game experience to compare it to.
Rawr matches up fairly well with what I see on stand and burns, usually around 3-5% higher which I attribute to latency, button pushing screwups on my part, target switching to kill the totems/chains/flares/whatever, etc. I've been raiding in the same gear for almost three months now and because the guild is causual, I've gone through a bunch of group compositions depending on who shows up any given night. Your group composition has a tremendous on your personal dps. I've been as low as 500 dps (no melee buffs, no armor reduction, 40% glancing blows on maiden) and as high as 1150 dps (optimal melee group, full sunder stack, FF, CoR on bear boss) in the same set of gear playing about equally well. Gimmick fights are higher, of course, but they're gimmick fights.
#2765SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nhul
Is there anything that can be done on Kaz'rogal or is it simply a lost cause to do well due to the mana burns?

I wore the crafted wrists/belt and BT neck tonight and resisted the majority of the Marks, only 3 or 4 landed I think, but even then its a blow to the dps I can put out as I either gimp my stats, judge less, and use mana pots instead of haste or flirt with blowing up my fellow melee. :[

Should I just accept that I wont be able to perform well at all on that fight?
#2766SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Our entire raid - aside from the tank - uses capped shadow resistance gear for Kaz'rogal. Nobody blows up, and nobody dies. Who cares about epeens when it saves people repair bills?
#2767SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nhul
Yes I agree, our first shot at him I underestimated the impact the mark would have on my mana pool and nearly killed the tank and have never been close since. Tonight I dont think I dipped under 3500 mana or so, and was able to maintain decent dps but was wondering if there is something other then stacking shadow resist that I could do personally.
#2768SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I do not condone this tactic. Use at your own risk.

On Kaz (if we have enough pallys throwing Blessings) I will often keep a Blessing of Sacrifice up on the main tank. Between that constant 101 every 2 seconds or so and the Ground Stomp I was able to keep up my mana relatively easily via Spiritual Atunement. Make sure your healers know what is going on, a downranked renew easily can keep you topped off as long as your healers know its coming.

And of course, cap your Shadow Resist as well. I run that fight at 40 hit rating and still am able to pull reasonable DPS.
#2769SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Deac
Just put on full mother shaz shadow res gear, well at least 300+.

I tend to resist all marks with that sort of gear on and i can dps with a full manapool all the way down to 0%.

Yes 700-800 dps isn't to fun to look at but its safe and easy.
#2770SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Nhul View Post
Is there anything that can be done on Kaz'rogal or is it simply a lost cause to do well due to the mana burns?

I wore the crafted wrists/belt and BT neck tonight and resisted the majority of the Marks, only 3 or 4 landed I think, but even then its a blow to the dps I can put out as I either gimp my stats, judge less, and use mana pots instead of haste or flirt with blowing up my fellow melee. :[

Should I just accept that I wont be able to perform well at all on that fight?

Personally I don't use any shadow res (well just the neck).


You can eat up 1 mark by bubbling in time = 3k mana saved.

Then it's spam mana pots and dark runes when they're up, I also use an Alchemist's Stone for extra mana.

Don't use consecration and make sure you have JoW and BoW up.

That's usually enough.
#2771SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Use a mana pot first, that way it's off CD again during the fight. Bubble on the second. If you are desperate, farm Scholo for a [Dark Rune]. If you are a blood elf, make sure to have a full stack of mana taps before the fight (get them off necromancers and banshees in the trash waves), arcane torrent as soon as you can, and mana tap Kazrogal again whenever you can.
Make your holydin drop a JoW, of course.

I often forget to equip any SR gear at all and I still usually do fine.
#2772SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Wrl
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Use a mana pot first, that way it's off CD again during the fight. Bubble on the second. If you are desperate, farm Scholo for a [Dark Rune]. If you are a blood elf, make sure to have a full stack of mana taps before the fight (get them off necromancers and banshees in the trash waves), arcane torrent as soon as you can, and mana tap Kazrogal again whenever you can.
Make your holydin drop a JoW, of course.

I often forget to equip any SR gear at all and I still usually do fine.
Basically this. Definitely get your SR set made, I still pull 1000dps in 300 SR gear. I also equip my Aran trinket for the extra mana and regen.
#2773SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pr0faiin
I've never really had a problem on Kaz as ret... as long as wisdom is up, and if I have wisdom myself I'm fine--with just my BT neck. The shammy drops mana spring as well, so that helps. I've resisted a whole fight's worth of marks, and then next week get every one of them. /shrug

I still want to take out the melees sometime though.
#2774SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rodimus Prime
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
HoW is always a DPS loss. It is almost always less DPS than Consecration due to melee pushback. Even with the 4-piece bonus it is never worth using. Don't use it.

It should have never been tied to our 4-piece bonus and it has long been a source of contention that we have the most useless set bonus in the game (though the resto Druid is arguably as bad).

As of yet, no one from or representing Blizzard has said anything regarding it.
Ok, mechanics question - and maybe I've missed the answer in these pages - but, I've read several different takes on Hammer of Wrath and it resetting/pushing back the melee swing timer... IE, the poster just below flyingtoastr referred to it as a swing reset, but flyingtoastr referred to it as a melee pushback.

First, can we get a clarification on this, and second, under what hypothetical situations/changes to the talent (Besides making it instant, as I doubt blizz would be that generous) would make it viable in PvE settings? If you're using a slow enough weapon is it possible to work it in as you would with a Slam rotation for Warriors?
#2775SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3yureisakebi
i often loose me swing timer althou i cast it 2 seconds befor the next swing . so i stoped using hammer. i only use it when i have to stay away from ne mob like allar sometimes or leo for example
#2776SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Prinsesa
Ok, mechanics question - and maybe I've missed the answer in these pages - but, I've read several different takes on Hammer of Wrath and it resetting/pushing back the melee swing timer... IE, the poster just below flyingtoastr referred to it as a swing reset, but flyingtoastr referred to it as a melee pushback.
It's a swing timer reset.

If you have a 3.60 speed weapon, this is what autoattacking looks like if you never touch anything:

T - 0.00: Autoattack
T + 3.60: Autoattack
T + 7.20: Autoattack

This is what autoattacking looks like if you cast Hammer of Wrath 0.5 seconds after your autoattack:

T - 0.00: Autoattack
T + 0.50: Start casting Hammer of Wrath
T + 1.00: Finish casting Hammer of Wrath, swing timer resets to 0
T + 4.60: Autoattack

This is what autoattacking looks like if you cast Hammer of Wrath immediately after your autoattack:

T - 0.00: Autoattack, start casting Hammer of Wrath
T + 0.50: Finish casting Hammer of Wrah, swing timer resets to 0
T + 4.10: Autoattack

Keep in mind that the third scenario would require the reflexes of a Mongoose coupled with a computer that's situated right inside Blizzard's server farm, and it STILL wouldn't produce even a marginal DPS increase, if at all.

First, can we get a clarification on this, and second, under what hypothetical situations/changes to the talent (Besides making it instant, as I doubt blizz would be that generous) would make it viable in PvE settings? If you're using a slow enough weapon is it possible to work it in as you would with a Slam rotation for Warriors?
Slam can work for Warriors because the lost swing time is returned as a proportion of their weapon's damage anyway, especially since Slam is unnormalized. Assuming they don't make it instant, other options would be:

1. Simply, to make HOW not be a DPS loss, increase the damage! Like the Judgement of Command and Judgement of Blood, Hammer of Wrath is barely hitting for more than its base damage, because it's still scaling off non-existent spell damage.

2. Make the set bonus apply to something else - even the T4 Protection set bonus would be better than this (although it should also include Seal of Command, obviously).

Last edited by Prinsesa : 03/12/08 at 10:54 PM. Reason: tags
#2777SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Ok, mechanics question - and maybe I've missed the answer in these pages - but, I've read several different takes on Hammer of Wrath and it resetting/pushing back the melee swing timer... IE, the poster just below flyingtoastr referred to it as a swing reset, but flyingtoastr referred to it as a melee pushback.
As Prinsesa said, it is a complete reset. I only use the word pushback for aesthetic reasons (it sounds nicer). Also *technically* if you did want to use it it would be directly following an autoswing so it would act the same as a straight up .5 second pushback.

Everything else above is spot on.
#2778SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antiock
Originally Posted by Nhul View Post
Yes I agree, our first shot at him I underestimated the impact the mark would have on my mana pool and nearly killed the tank and have never been close since. Tonight I dont think I dipped under 3500 mana or so, and was able to maintain decent dps but was wondering if there is something other then stacking shadow resist that I could do personally.
Last night I forgot my shadow resist gear like a dumbass and ended up switching to my 1h tanking weapon for about 30 seconds, which attacks much faster, and turned on SoW. It gimped my dps somewhat, but nobody blew up.
#2779SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kazekan
Thanks a bunch for the replies guys, especially Noth with the WWS reports and group layout. I really appreciate it. I just picked up my TotD last night finally (yay!) so now I have an even better chance of performing how I want to. It's good to know that Rawr is pretty close to in-game #'s at least on non-gimic fights. That'll help me to know what I should be putting out abouts.

With my gear right now, with full raid buffs and debuffs on the mob (save FF and CoR...*sigh*), I sit at about 1250 DPS on Rawr. One of the officers said that if they ever saw a Ret pally do 1200 DPS they'd take them in a second... so it'd be pretty hilarious to get even close to that number with my limited time playing as Ret. If nothing else it gives me hope!

Cheers.

P.S. - No word yet on the T6 4-piece bonus, however I'll be seeing my buddies tomorrow in person so I'll ask them then.
#2780SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nhul
Thanks for the idea's on Kaz'rogal folks, the 1h/SoW trick and BoS sound like something to try so I can squeeze a bit more dps out. :]
#2781SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lïnk
So i've been using rawr to help me compare what gear would be the best upgrade. But i saw this topic on cromfel's forum Cromfel.Battlefield.fi Forums-viewtopic-Cataclysm's Edge vs. Torch of the Damned
But no matter what kind of gear setup I have or if i have over 500 armor penetration mongoose is still the best main hand weapon enchant according to Rawr. I'm just curious what u guys think about that and if mongoose still is superior enchant to executioner with my gear setup. Hopefully its updated to my ret set i had to go holy today =O
#2782SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I'm satisfied overall with the mongoose vs executioner comparison in Rawr and I think its pretty accurate. For Blood Elves, executioner will be about equal to mongoose at low boss armor and stacked ArP gear.
#2783SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antishekka
ok, my guild is currently progressing in bt, with me as ret palladin, and on some bosses, we need 1 more healer, gortug for example, due to taking in 8 healers. then my question really is, is off-spec healing as retri worth it? or should i just spec holy for the boss..? (witch really aint in my mind)
#2784SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bomzix
Assuming you do have good healing gear, you can spam FL/HL on the MT for nice HPS. However they better not count on you to save the day. I'd try for mana regen gear if you have a choice since crit isn't doing anything for u without the talents.
#2785SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Antishekka
an off healer shouldnt be needed for that with a tree in the raid.. they set me to heal raid..............
#2786SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
You can do Gurtogg fine with 7 healers even on progression. You'll probably have to chug mana pots even just FoL spamming if you ret off-heal during Gurtogg. I'm not sure that's worth the dps loss. Basically it comes down to how good your healers are or how much confidence your raid leaders have in them. We did it with 7 and I was dpsing...not off-healing.
#2787SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3SomeoneRandom
Whenever I offer to off-heal in raids, I usually slap myself on a tank and put on my maximized +heal and mp5 gear and just spam FOL on a tank =\ I can still output good enough HPS as ret that its not an issue... My only real problem is that after raiding as a healer for so long even when I am not spec'd holy I don't trust people and I end up having to chain chug from using HL and what not. :P The new Alch Stone will help my healing set tons Too bad I wont be getting the melee one hehe

As for Gurtogg.. hes one of the fights where dps isn't an issue especially on your first kill... sure you could take 7 healers, but your risking losing a fel rage target and having shit go to hell... personally I would rather he live for 20-30 seconds longer and just bring 9 healers (or have me + a feral druid heal) and have no chance of wiping :P
#2788SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
I'm not a big fan of healer stacking, even on fights where it's possible to do so. On Gurtogg, for example, you absolutely stand a better chance of keeping Fel Rage targets alive if you bring ten healers or something equally ridiculous, but when it comes at the price of having the fight last 25% longer you end up with 25% more chances for somebody to screw up Bloodboil, or stand in a wall during Fel Rage, or pull aggro and get all of the casters Malowned. You absolutely do stand to have soul-crushing wipes even when you stack the deck on your healing team.

Aggro pulling is especially dangerous on Gurtogg, since the tanks pretty rapidly threat plateau from the Knock Away, and as the fight goes longer a lot of classes (all DPS Shaman, Paladins, Warriors, Priests, and Druids) are forced to either stand there with their thumbs up their asses or risk the deaths of them and everybody else. You're really better off encouraging your healers to perform on the healer check fights than coddle them and put all the burden on your DPS and tanks.
#2789SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Khaelarys
Question about RAWR. <Fantastic tool, btw. thank you, for it and for the spread sheet.>

I couldn't find anywhere in the app where I could easily view the formulas you use, but I had a question about expertise.

Do you calculate the value of expertise for a given item assuming that it prevents both parries or dodges, or does it calculate assuming you're behind the mob like a good monkey and it only calculates dodge? Would this be an option you might add in a future release?

Last edited by Khaelarys : 03/14/08 at 4:22 PM.
#2790SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Astrylian
Ah, cool, didn't know you had released a beta of Rawr.Ret yet. Looks like it's coming along well!

Let me know if there's anything missing from the framework that ya need me to add.
#2791SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Antishekka View Post
ok, my guild is currently progressing in bt, with me as ret palladin, and on some bosses, we need 1 more healer, gortug for example, due to taking in 8 healers. then my question really is, is off-spec healing as retri worth it? or should i just spec holy for the boss..? (witch really aint in my mind)
Healing as ret as just retarded, just respec. I respec at least twice a week between holy and ret depending on availability of good healers for the harder or more healing intensive fights.

You can cover the cost of respec'ing very easily with 30-60min of farming motes of air in nagrand (woo engineering), normally 60min will give you at least 5 primal air, which sell for 20g each at least on my server aka a quick 100g.
#2792SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnor
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
Aggro pulling is especially dangerous on Gurtogg, since the tanks pretty rapidly threat plateau from the Knock Away, and as the fight goes longer a lot of classes (all DPS Shaman, Paladins, Warriors, Priests, and Druids) are forced to either stand there with their thumbs up their asses or risk the deaths of them and everybody else. You're really better off encouraging your healers to perform on the healer check fights than coddle them and put all the burden on your DPS and tanks.
3 tanks and 8 healers is a good balance for the fight imo.

I find on gurtogg if you drop exorcism and consecration out of your rotation for most of the normal phase you should be fine threat wise and do ~1000dps for those phases. Then during fel rage phases use everything, pop avenging wrath + haste potion + with heroism/bloodlust. Overall for the fight you'll end up at over 1200 dps.
#2793SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
3 tanks and 8 healers is a good balance for the fight imo.

I find on gurtogg if you drop exorcism and consecration out of your rotation for most of the normal phase you should be fine threat wise and do ~1000dps for those phases. Then during fel rage phases use everything, pop avenging wrath + haste potion + with heroism/bloodlust. Overall for the fight you'll end up at over 1200 dps.
Hey, I drop Exorcism from my rotation on Gurtogg, too!

But seriously though, I was talking more about Gurtogg strategy in general, than specific Ret Paladin strategies for the encounter. But that's some pretty good advice for staying not dead on Gurtogg. It unfortunately doesn't work for a lot of other classes (DPS Warriors in particular, and Shadow Priests to a lesser extent) which makes the threat plateau a real concern if you're dropping a fifth of your DPS for healers. Three tanks and eight healers is a pretty decent balance.
#2794SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
I did Bloodboil for the first time as ret last week, so I was a little worried about threat (and held back a lot). It is excellent to be able to blow AW ever other Fel Rage though.

I was thinking about threat generation though, and would it be a good idea to have the ret pally grouped with a prot pally for the fight? Assuming the tanking group and the melee group both have shamans for Windfury (which they should), would the other smaller losses of personal DPS be balanced by the higher threat ceiling?
#2795SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Chicken
Speaking from my own experience tanking the fight as a Prot Paladin, the last thing I want in it is even more aggro. Gurtogg's effective "Dual Wielding without the miss rate" makes Holy Shield threat extremely high, and makes it so I have to hold back unless I want to get way too many stacks of Acidic Wounds.
#2796SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I was thinking about threat generation though, and would it be a good idea to have the ret pally grouped with a prot pally for the fight? Assuming the tanking group and the melee group both have shamans for Windfury (which they should), would the other smaller losses of personal DPS be balanced by the higher threat ceiling?
If you have aggro sensible melee classes on this fight and an enhancement shaman is avaible, he should really twist wf/tranquil air totem. Without it our fury and our arms warriors had serious aggro management problems and hold back for most of the fight. Now it's very doable for both, shouldn't be very different for you retadins.

If you have only restoration shamans avaible, tranquil air totem for the bloodboil phase and wf in the fel rage phase (rogues should get poison on the mainhands) could be the way to go.
#2797SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
During Gurtog is the only time I heal, and even then it's only during rage when the squishies attract attention, the rest of the time, I never heal. It's a waste of a raid slot to have a ret paladin heal, Either swap in a proper healer, or let the Ret Paladin fight.
#2798SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
BAH!

The Season 4 Sword was nerfed slightly. Plugging it into the spreadsheet is giving me a few DPS lower than Apolyon. Still, with the lack of hit rating and the slower speed I'm still personally leaning towards grinding out an 1850 on my 3v3 again.

EDIT: For those of you who can't look at giant pictures I'll rip off Theras' pretty little code. Old stats from last version are in red.
Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand           Speed 3.60
(140.3 damage per second) (144.4)
+66 Stamina (69)
+50 Strength (52)
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves your critical strike rating by 50. (52)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 33.
Equip: Improves your hit rating by 19. (21)
Equip: Your attacks ignore 98 of your opponent's armor.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 6:15 PM.
#2799SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Bad news for some, Good news for others I guess. I'll never make 1850 Arena rating, but I have a realistic chance of getting Apolyon. I'm not good with the math but I was under the impression that Apolyon was some way ahead of the S4 sword no?
#2800SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
Bad news for some, Good news for others I guess. I'll never make 1850 Arena rating, but I have a realistic chance of getting Apolyon. I'm not good with the math but I was under the impression that Apolyon was some way ahead of the S4 sword no?
For Blood Elves Apolyon destroys the S4 sword. This really only applies to those of us who hate fast weapons stacked with haste.
#2801SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Now Blade of the Harbingers is roughly the same DPS as S4 sword for BEs and both Shivering Felspine and Apolyon beat it by big margins
#2802SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Is anyone sure on the expertise cap? Come 2.4, my goal is to get the 3 new pieces of T6([Lightbringer Boots], [Lightbringer Bands], [Lightbringer Girdle]), with a [Shard of Contempt] to top it off. This totals to 44 + 19 + 16 + 25 = 104 expertise rating. This works out to be 11.16 + 4.82 + 4.06 + 6.34 = 26.38 expertise POINTS @ level 70. It rounds down, so thats 26 x 0.25 = 6.5% dodge/parry reduction.

Is this enough to mitigate all dodge/parry on a raid boss (ie level 73)?
#2803SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
According to the Rogue thread you need 6.5% to be expertise capped. WoWwiki and a lot of other people I've talked to have said you only need 5.6%.

I would err on the side of caution and assume 6.5% until someone can prove without a doubt which of the numbers is correct.

That's dodges of course. Boss parry ranges run in the realm of 10-15%, so you would need an obscene amount of expertise to remove parries from the table. Always attack from behind!
#2804SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Yea thats why I asked here... the people in my guild are convinced its between 6.25 and 6.5% on dodge, but one can never be too sure!
#2805SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
I've taken it as 6.5 in Rawr for anyone wondering.
#2806SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lïnk
Anarkii how come no matter how much armor penetration I get from gear Rawr model always says that mongoose is better weapon enchant over executioner. Is it actually better? I'm running at 622 armor penetration right now w/ [Cataclysm's Edge] as my main hand. I'm planning on getting [Leggings of Divine Retribution] and still saying mongoose is better. And i saw you're also using executioner as a main hand enchant. Is there miscalculating error in the rawr model?
#2807SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
What value of boss armor are you using? With 6200 armor(all Hyjal bosses and Teron), and some Armor Penetration gear (Cata w/ Exec, Signet of Primal Wrath, Serrated Blades, Divine Retribution, Dory's Embrace) Executioner becomes better than Mongoose. This is of course for SoB. For SoC, Executioner becomes better much earlier.

I'm personally using Executioner because of the looks(and the difference between Exec and Mongoose isn't big even without stacking ArP). I plan to get Mongoose if Torch EVER drops (or on Blade of the Harbinger I guess).

This reminds me of something I've been thinking to post about for a while. An interesting development in the coming months will be benchmarking around Brutallus. Till now, most of the common DPS benchmarks have been on 6200 armor bosses (all of Hyjal and Teron). So both white damage and CS have stayed at relatively high percentages of overall DPS. With Brutallus being a 6min, 8800armor fight, the valuations of buffs, Armor Penetration, Haste etc are likely to change, ArP will go down drastically in value on that fight.
#2808SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
I find on gurtogg if you drop exorcism and consecration out of your rotation for most of the normal phase you should be fine threat wise and do ~1000dps for those phases. Then during fel rage phases use everything, pop avenging wrath + haste potion + with heroism/bloodlust. Overall for the fight you'll end up at over 1200 dps.
I've heard opinions that meleeing Gurtogg when you are fel rages is bad, because if he parries you, it's often GG. What is people's opinion on this?
#2809SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
I've been told the same Valerys. Something about when he parries you it causes him to hit your more often. I'm not sure of the details. I've never actually had a fel rage, but if i do I'll just pull out my Shield, consecrate and then heal myself.
#2810SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Galick
When a boss parries an attack it resets his swing timer. Not the good kind though, the kind that makes him finish his current swing and immediately do another attack. We had a T5/T6 tank get instagibbed on an lol Gruul's run a few weeks back because he ran in without shield block on and HKM double crushed him due to a parried attack. Same thing has happened on Teron Gorefiend because a melee started attacking from the front during the pull. I don't know why it's a part of the game but it's a factor I don't like since I get parried a lot on Council due to having to constantly reposition.
#2811SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurm
I just dps if I get fel rage on Gurtogg... our healers don't seem to have a problem (seeing as how I have plate... they only worry if a clothie gets fel raged) and its a lot of extra damage

Last edited by Zurm : 03/17/08 at 4:55 PM.
#2812SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
I've updated the ItemCache.xml for RAWR with the following, feel free to try it out:

-S4 sword nerf
-Added Apolyon (stats from MMO-Champion pic: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ry/apolyon.jpg)
-S4 gear armor change
-Fixes here and there, mostly items that were listed as "Common" quality now have the correct quality.
-Added hit gems: [Rigid Lionseye][Rigid Dawnstone][Glinting Pyrestone][Glinting Noble Topaz]


One of the main challenges come 2.4 is going to be getting hit capped (given that all the plate gear, with the exception of the crafted gloves, have 0 +hit) and with S4 sword getting nerfed, I really wanted to see how things would work out with Apolyon (which does not have any hit sadly).

Link: http://www.lostchapter.org/Avi/Rawr/ItemCache.xml

(Anarkii, PM inc )

Last edited by Avitus : 03/17/08 at 11:50 AM.
#2813SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
I've been told the same Valerys. Something about when he parries you it causes him to hit your more often. I'm not sure of the details. I've never actually had a fel rage, but if i do I'll just pull out my Shield, consecrate and then heal myself.
Don't think it's a good idea to heal yourself either since you lose the ability to parry (or was it dodge?) when you're casting spells.
#2814SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tekzor
I always switch to my bulwark and rising tide during fel rage just to be safe.

As for getting hit capped in sunwell, I picked up a [Stormrage Signet Ring]. After working through a lot of the item combinations in bellator's spreadsheet, the hit on the ring makes every other slot work well.
#2815SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Galick
I have little to no faith in our healers a great deal of the time so when I get fel enrage I throw on a shield until I get topped off since it takes some time for them to switch targets and begin casting. Once I get topped off I throw on the two hander and pop any CDs I have and try to hit some monster numbers. If I get below 50%, I'll throw on the shield again. Also, if you wanna see something really cool, LoH yourself if you get low. Don't worry, you'll get all the mana back from SA in about 3 secs.
#2816SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gevlin
Our guild takes our Enh Shammy from the melee group and puts it in the tank group. Basically just raising the threat cap and lowering our threat and dmg, but allows the melee to go harder for longer. then we get the shaman back for the 20-30% fel rage for heroism WF etc. Seems to work well.

As for parries during fel rage....i'd say blow AW and dps your heart out. we're easier to keep alive than clothies (mostly because of higher dodge) even with a parry or two. almost 400% damage with AW up is no joke.
#2817SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Has anyone done some number crunching regarding Hit rating and the Sunwell gear?

I've been doing some myself for the perfect plate set in 2.4 and am wondering if anyone found any especially inventive ways to get hit capped.

The current optimal set I'm considering would be:

[Crown of Anasterian]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares] <-21 Hit rating
[Pauldrons of Berserking]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] <-17 Hit rating
[Warharness of Reckless Fury]
[Lightbringer Bands]
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] <-23 Hit rating
[Lightbringer Girdle]
[Felfury Legplates]
[Lightbringer Boots]
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Libram of Divine Judgement]

With 16 Hit rating from head enchant, that's a total of 77 Hit rating. 18 Hit rating short of the 95 Hit rating cap.

With [Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword] I'd be perfectly hitcapped. However that's just a stepping stone till Apolyon.

(The following is all calculated through Rawr)

Options:

-2x 10 hit gems
-[Dreadboots of the Legion] instead of the Lightbringer ones (this is an option for humans only however).
-[Madness of the Betrayer] instead of one of the trinkets (Crusade Card being very good if moderate to high consecration/exorcism is used and pretty crap otherwise).
-Leather head from illidan or leather pants from felmyst.

Again not sure if there's a straight answer, but I'm wondering what others might have considered for an optimal/hit capped set or even if their optimal set differs


Sure will be painful having only 4k mana unbuffed though...

Last edited by Avitus : 03/17/08 at 12:28 PM.
#2818SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Strifen
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Again not sure if there's a straight answer, but I'm wondering what others might have considered for an optimal/hit capped set or even if their optimal set differs
If it's possible for you look into getting the Stormrage Signet Ring off of Illidan. I grabbed one recently because of all the plate gear lacking +hit. I'm sure I'll need to switch it in. It's a ton of + hit on one item.


Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Sure will be painful having only 4k mana unbuffed though...
I've yet to have any significant mana problems with wisdom judged.
#2819SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
If it's possible for you look into getting the Stormrage Signet Ring off of Illidan. I grabbed one recently because of all the plate gear lacking +hit. I'm sure I'll need to switch it in. It's a ton of + hit on one item.
Yea it's an option, but it almost has too much hit, but not enough that you can drop any other hit item, so a lot of that itemvalue gets wasted.

And that's why it's so tricky finding the perfect balance of stats/gain


I've yet to have any significant mana problems with wisdom judged.

Questions is, what is your DPS however. I know you can SoC/JoC (or SoB/JoB) and CS and never run out of mana with JoW on the mob, but I tend to try to push the envelope a bit with consecration, on some bosses I can maintain full out max rank consecration spam.

That's a 150 DPS increase, on undead/demon mobs it's roughly 220 DPS increase with exorcism on top.

It's the difference between a mediocre ~1500 DPS and a pretty awesome 1700+ DPS (or 1950 my current record on Gorefiend, but that's another story).

Unfortunately, it comes at an almost unsurmountable mana cost, I guess blizz didn't intend for us to use it that way.

Still, consecration is a major DPS increase one would be foolish to ignore, especially since we don't have any other abilities with dots ticking like deep wounds.



I guess in a nutshell, I'm happy that with the new gear there's going to be a roughly 300 DPS increase from the current best gear (what I'm wearing basically) if you disregard consecration/exorcism.

If you factor in not being able to keep up much consecration/exorcism however in the new gear, it somehow diminishes the overall performance.

Obviously regen > mana pool, however in short fights (and with few exceptions, most fights aren't that long in BT/Hyjal for example) a 2500 extra mana head start (equal to an extra super mana potion) comes in very welcome, which is what I'll lose going from T6 -> int-less Sunwell gear.



I'm still undecided, I wish they'd give us some sort of significantly cheaper single target consecration spell ala deep wounds
#2820SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gaffadin
I actually just went through the loot list from Sunwell with a view to figuring out how to remain hit-capped and came up with some inventiveness of my own.

[Glyph of Ferocity] (16 hit)
[Choker of Endless Nightmares] (21 hit)
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (17 hit)
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] (32 hit)
Surefooted on your (T6 probably) boots (10 hit)

Gives a grand total of 96 hit.

Of course you're going to have to distract your Rogues with candy or porn or something to get them to let you take the legs (I would probably wait until the second/third pair, I couldn't in good conscience take the first ones) but aside from that it would be a decent way of remaining hit-capped.
#2821SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Gaffadin View Post
Of course you're going to have to distract your Rogues with candy or porn or something to get them to let you take the legs (I would probably wait until the second/third pair, I couldn't in good conscience take the first ones) but aside from that it would be a decent way of remaining hit-capped.
Yea those leather pants from Felmyst are pretty sweet, but I was hoping to not be forced to go leather in order to get hit capped.

With those pants, it would be possible to get the crafted leather gloves and socket 1 hit gem and net a total increase of ~32 DPS (!) over my previous total.

Would mean 2 leather items though :/

Last edited by Avitus : 03/17/08 at 5:55 PM.
#2822SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
The best thing I could hope for right now would be a change in the 4-piece T6 bonus. If they made that bonus viable you could keep wearing your [Lightbringer Breastplate], which has enough hit rating to cover the gaps without using the Illidan ring or the S4 sword.

But as it is now, I'll be crafting my [Hard Khorium Battleplate] and be happy with that (and socket a few Lionseyes somewhere).

Oh by the way, has anyone run the Season 4 gloves versus the Hard Khorium yet? The S4 gloves stats are (I can't use excel at work):
Brutal Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets
Binds when picked up
1239 Armor
+46 Stamina 
+27 Intellect
+44 Strength 
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves your critical strike rating by 30.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 26.
Equip: Increases the damage done by your Crusader Strike by 5%.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/17/08 at 6:17 PM.
#2823SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Yeah, my plan is also to wear all the best in slot plate, with a couple [Rigid Lionseye] in my yellow sockets. That plus a [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] is enough to perfectly hit cap at 95.
#2824SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Angeal
Took a bit of a break from WoW. Three weeks have passed and now I see this Rawr thing.

I downloaded it, and I'll probably check it out shortly. What are the differences between it and Bellator's?



Anyone have any opinions on if I should just stop trying to acquire Armor Pen, and go straight for Haste? Yes I'm Blood Elf. Right now with our Prot Pally leaving, Hyjal isn't really doable - No Cataclysm's Edge for me Gurtogg should be down this week, so Divine Retribution are of course obtainable. 2.4

Bah, I pretty much answered it for myself. I guess I'll start working on Haste :P
#2825SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gaffadin
For Bellator's spreadsheet you had to have Excel (which I and some others didn't), so Rawr is a help for us.

Bellator certainly laid the groundwork though, I'm sure our Rawr would not exist were it not for his work.

Props to both Bellator and Anarkii really.

And yeah I'm not crazy about wearing leather either. I really only do it when it provides an overwhelming upgrade from a comparable ilvl mail/plate piece, and in this case the money belt gives a substantial benefit, at least for Alliance Paladins.
#2826SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Draconna
My solution to hit:
get a boomkin.
#2827SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
For engineers , the setup Theras mentioned, replacing Crown with Mayhem Projection Goggles hitcaps you and gives you a 10DPS increase. Others might have to go for leather as discussed above.

p.s And yeah, Rawr would not have been possible without Bellator's spreadsheet - so a lot of the credit goes to Bellator. As people who've been following Rawr might know, the goal of Rawr was not just to port the spreadsheet to the Rawr framework. A spreadsheet and excel macros can only do so much, and macros get cumbersome very quickly. So that was the basic reason I started thinking about it. Then as I saw the ease of use that Rawr could provide while maintaining the same accuracy as a spreadsheet, I became convinced that it was worth the time and effort to do it.

There is also another reason for me staying so interested in Rawr. Rawr currently has working feral, mage, warlock, retribution, healadin, moonkin, ele shaman models while 2-3 other models had been started. Once all the models are implemented in Rawr, we can start looking at Raid Modeling. Something that has never been done so far. Pick 25 characters in the raid and you can not only see the Raid DPS, but also figure out the best group setups possible with those 25. The mage's mana gain will be based on how much mana *that* shadowpriest returns, for example.

This is complicated and still far in the future, so don't ask me about it yet, but it is possible.
#2828SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Strifen
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Yea it's an option, but it almost has too much hit, but not enough that you can drop any other hit item, so a lot of that itemvalue gets wasted.

And that's why it's so tricky finding the perfect balance of stats/gain
Yeah I hear you there man. I'm a fan of getting hit capped without having to go into prot for the + hit talents but I don't think that's very reasonable come sunwell time. One things for sure is that I can not wait to get all that expertise on our T6 pieces.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Questions is, what is your DPS however. I know you can SoC/JoC (or SoB/JoB) and CS and never run out of mana with JoW on the mob, but I tend to try to push the envelope a bit with consecration, on some bosses I can maintain full out max rank consecration spam.

It's the difference between a mediocre ~1500 DPS and a pretty awesome 1700+ DPS (or 1950 my current record on Gorefiend, but that's another story

I'm still undecided, I wish they'd give us some sort of significantly cheaper single target consecration spell ala deep wounds
It depends a lot on the fight of course but for a typical tank and spank like Teron Gorefiend I generally push 2100 peaking out at 2300 (multiple lusts + sob). I can keep all my abilities on cooldown while weaving in rank 2-3 concecrate. One thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the vindication 'immune' debuff does infact have a chance to proc JoW ? I've got 3/3 in my raid build so that may account for quite a bit of mana regen.

Last edited by Strifen : 03/18/08 at 12:02 AM.
#2829SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
One thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the vindication 'immune' debuff does infact have a chance to proc JoW ? I've got 3/3 in my raid build so that may account for quite a bit of mana regen.
Vindication does seem to proc JoW.

Remember also you are getting regen via SoB/JoB recoil heals, something us Alliance Paladins do not have access to. It isn't a huge amount, but its enough to make a large difference in mana supplies on a long boss fight. Seal of Blood also costs 70 less mana than a max rank Seal of Command.

In short, its another one of those "metrosexual elves need not apply" issues.
#2830SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Valerys
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Has anyone done some number crunching regarding Hit rating and the Sunwell gear?

I've been doing some myself for the perfect plate set in 2.4 and am wondering if anyone found any especially inventive ways to get hit capped.
Here's the optimal set I put together for SoB:

[Duplicitous Guise] - 30 hit rating, 4 from gem bonus, 16 from enchant
[Choker of Endless Nightmares] <-21 Hit rating
[Pauldrons of Berserking]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Warharness of Reckless Fury]
[Lightbringer Bands]
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] <-23 Hit rating
[Lightbringer Girdle]
[Felfury Legplates]
[Lightbringer Boots]
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Libram of Avengement]

And Apolyon.

Total 94 hit rating, 1 below the cap. It also involves a leather helm, for which your rogues might murder you. If you go with Crown of Anasterian then you'll need the Gorefiend cloak or Illidan ring, but it'll be some dps loss.

EDIT: Just plugged them into the spreadsheet - with Anasterian you'll be losing a lot of +hit, so you will also need to plug in a +hit gem along with the cloak or ring, and it'll be about 20 dps loss from the above setup.

Note also that this setup has only one blue socket, so you'll need to socket a second blue gem out of color for the meta - I suggest the bracers since their socket bonus is the crappiest.

Last edited by Valerys : 03/18/08 at 5:25 AM.
#2831SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
If I had really bad luck with Blood Furnace drops, which would be in second place, the [Libram of Righteous Power] or the [Libram of Divine Judgement]?

I acknowledge that as a Blood Elf I should be using the Righteous since Divine Judgement is only for Seal of Command, but how about for those rare Prince fights and general PvP?
#2832SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Valerys
I use Righteous myself, since I don't have Avengement. For SoC Divine Judgement beats everything else (see? see? Alliance advantage right there! )
#2833SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Just wondering - in all the optimal set discussion in the last 2 pages, what value of boss armor are you guys using?
#2834SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Yeah I hear you there man. I'm a fan of getting hit capped without having to go into prot for the + hit talents but I don't think that's very reasonable come sunwell time. One things for sure is that I can not wait to get all that expertise on our T6 pieces.
Well not to flip flop or anything, but I didn't mean not taking the talents, cause that's almost certainly a big DPS loss from what you need to fill in gear wise in hit rating.



Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
It depends a lot on the fight of course but for a typical tank and spank like Teron Gorefiend I generally push 2100 peaking out at 2300 (multiple lusts + sob).
I usually run a non stacked group (ret, enhance, warrior, rogue, rogue), as an alliance paladin my best so far has been 1950.

Think I've hit much more the one time we had a stacked group for fun (+feral, +bmhunter), 2.1k sounds bout right, but still no multiple lusts

Curious, but what party setup do you have there? And how can your raid afford multiple bloodlusts for your party without gimping other parts of the raid?



Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
One thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the vindication 'immune' debuff does infact have a chance to proc JoW ?
I'm pretty sure Vindication procs JoW, whether it does so on vindication 'immune' mobs, I'm not too certain. I think atm the assumption is that it also does proc JoW when immune, based on guesses from a few WWS logs that show increased JoW procs on bosses.

Has anyone figured this out for certain (with proof)?
#2835SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Just wondering - in all the optimal set discussion in the last 2 pages, what value of boss armor are you guys using?
The default (7700).

Also 5x sunder, CoR, unimproved FF.
#2836SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mex
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'm pretty sure Vindication procs JoW, whether it does so on vindication 'immune' mobs, I'm not too certain. I think atm the assumption is that it also does proc JoW when immune, based on guesses from a few WWS logs that show increased JoW procs on bosses.

Has anyone figured this out for certain (with proof)?
I was under the impression that it did. There was a post awhile back with an excerpt from a combat log showing Vindication Immunity proccing JoW.

Edit - Yup, [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

I don't remember anyone offering any critique on it, and I only skimmed the following couple of pages so maybe it's been disproven but it looks fairly solid.
#2837SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Well, I'm not sure whether the new combat log has the same short coming, but in the current combat log things like this can always show up due to lag.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not 100% conclusive.

Personally I have 1/3 vindication in my raiding spec.
#2838SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ayreon
I am pretty sure Vindication does proc JoW



Right after an autoattack + CS
#2839SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Alright, sounds great then, we can nail this one down now
#2840SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Strifen
Ok sweet thanks for clearing that up. I thought I saw it proccing off of vindication in on my combat log - glad I wasn't just going crazy. To answer Avitus. Generally my group is either feral druid, ms war, enhance shaman, ret, rogue. or 2x rogue, enhance, ms war, ret. It's about 50/50, so at times very stacked. Also we have 7 raiding shaman in the guild so putting 3 lusts in the meele group on a fight like Teron won't gimp any part of the raid.
#2841SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
Regarding Vindication: I think the next question would be, would there be a difference between 1/3 and 3/3 as far as the proc rate is concerned?
#2842SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meuble
The tooltip doesn't say so. Usually, if the proc's increased, it does... And considering how Vindication 1/3 procs (my raiding spec too) I really doubt it goes any higher than that.
#2843SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
I was wondering about armor penetration and how we model it in both Rawr and Bellator's spreadsheet. There is stuff that provides a static amount of armor penetration and there are things that proc armor penetration. We model proc armor penetration through averaging it. I had feeling this is could be a little off as damage increase from armor penetration should not be linear.

I wanted to validate it, but as you will see, I miss some data and will need a little help from you with it. I am not so good in math, I am not going to pretend it. I would like to present you one scenario and hope you can follow what I mean. Maybe I am wrong, doing some horrible math error, just do not shoot me in that case, please.

Consider we face boss for simplicity not with 7700 armor, but just 6200 armor. With all raid debuffs and fixed amount of armor penetration from paladin's gear we reduce boss effective armor by 5360 to 840, this is possible with patch 2.4 loot for sure. Our paladin has Executioner enchant on his weapon. This means boss has base mitigation of 7,37% procent. If Executioner procs, our paladin will reduce boss armor to zero for Xs, where X is Executioner uptime.

Situation 1) We model Executioner as fixed ArmorP bonus (354.7 for 3.8s weapon speed) and pretend that paladin reduced boss to some fix amount of armor whole time (4.56% in our case). Average DPS will be A.

Situation 2) Paladin face whole time boss with 7.37% armor mitigation and does B dps, just for Xs of Executioner uptime he does C dps more. Average DPS should be B + (X/60) * C.

Question at hand is how looks difference between Situation 1 and Situation 2.

What values of A, B and C we can use? I took SoC, some standard raid buff settings, Tier 6 gear preset and put it all into Bellator's table. Removed enchant from weapon and modified character base ArmorP in order to achieve 5360 ArmorP on boss. In DPSCalc tab I set 6200 base armor to boss. I hope my math above is not totaly off. I achiveved following numbers by switching on Executioneer and switching it off while adding another 840 to base ArmorP.

A = 1822dps

B = 1779dps
C = 107dps

The only problem is X. These values though says, that if Bellator's model takes Executioner uptime of 24s, both model deliver same result. Lower uptime leads to Bellator's model providing higher dps as in reality it would be.

During this whole think I realized, that through averaging Executioner in spreadsheet it can well happen, that some ArmorP happy paladin will actually sport way to much ArmorP, not even noticing it. Maybe we should incorporate some check if sum of all fixed ArmorP bonuses and possible procs do not exceed expected boss armor.
#2844SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Anyone know if Vindication procs T6 2pc as well? I've been scanning my WWS logs and can't seem to be able to prove it either way, but my hunch is yes because the proc rate was about 10% higher with vindication then without.... then again that could be purely off sample size.
#2845SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tekzor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well, I'm not sure whether the new combat log has the same short coming, but in the current combat log things like this can always show up due to lag.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not 100% conclusive.

Personally I have 1/3 vindication in my raiding spec.
Some items in the ptr combat log show up immediately [.05-.1 seconds] following actions they should be associated with and some can lag as far as 1.1 seconds behind in my very limited grep of my own actions in the logs. I went through and 'intuitively' trimmed actions that already matched up and would have caused a jow proc and that is what I had left. Far from conclusive, I agree--but in an anecdotal sense it does seem to add up.
#2846SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
@pvita
Good Points. Just to go back to the basics, there are 2 different issues at play here :

1. Averaging out executioner over its uptime (uptime is derived from weapon speed, then Average ArP from Exec=((uptime/60)*840) ) is not 100% accurate. This is because due to the nature of ArP, 5000 ArP average is different from 5500 ArP for 50% of the time and 4500 ArP for rest of the time. For executioner, this difference can be 2-3 DPS.

2. If effective boss armor is less than 840 without executioner, some portion of the buff will be wasted, and as a result the executioner model will not be fully accurate.

Now coming to solving these issues :

For 1, Rawr is not a simulator and so we'll have to solve this with a closed form equation instead of a real simulation. For Executioner, this means modeling it not as an ArP increase, but as a damage multiplier. Assuming we know the effective boss armor while doing the calculation for executioner, this becomes
ExecutionerMultiplier = (1.0*ExecutionerDownTime + (1.0+(DamageIncrease/100))*ExecutionerUpTime)/60

Here DamageIncrease will be something like 4%(say) which is the additional damage you do because of the additional ArP on a boss with specified armor.

So the question is why didn't I model it like this? If Executioner was the only such proc/enchant/item, the assumption that we know the effective boss armor while doing this calculation would have been correct. Simply subtract the sum of passive ArP from the boss armor and you get the effective boss armor. However, that assumption is not sound because there ARE other procs like this. Madness of the Betrayer for example. Do I thread in madness uptime, executioner uptime, madness downtime, executioner downtime all together in a closed form equation? What if there are more items/procs like these?

Thus I decided that averaging out is the best route to take.

Regarding (2), again I can specifically check if EffectiveBossArmor < 840, then take that into account while calculating executioner. But the same scenario here - add multiple proc items, and it becomes a mess.

I'll be more than happy to take care of both issues if someone can simply represent them in a closed form equation while keeping in mind that in the future, more such procs can be added.
#2847SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Holynae
I would pick
[Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm]
instead of
[Hard Khorium Battlefists]
just because I don't see the point of paying full gear points AND 1200g average in case of the plate gloves. Don't know how your guilds are going to handle the craftable items in sunwell.

But regarding the hitrating I would say, socketing [Rigid Lionseye] is not a possibility. Socketing [Etched Fire Opal] would be much better in my opinion.
#2848SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Also we have 7 raiding shaman in the guild so putting 3 lusts in the meele group on a fight like Teron won't gimp any part of the raid.
Damn, that's pretty lucky

Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Regarding Vindication: I think the next question would be, would there be a difference between 1/3 and 3/3 as far as the proc rate is concerned?
Nope, Vindication has 100% proc chance regardless of talent points spent.
#2849SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grengorr
I don't see any mention of [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] since page 103. Does anyone have any further information other than Aldor rep giving 200 AP for 10 s with some unknown cooldown and the unconfirmed (?) reports of Scryers rep giving a ~400 crittable arcane damage proc with unknown chance and cooldown?
#2850SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Grengorr View Post
I don't see any mention of [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] since page 103. Does anyone have any further information other than Aldor rep giving 200 AP for 10 s with some unknown cooldown and the unconfirmed (?) reports of Scryers rep giving a ~400 crittable arcane damage proc with unknown chance and cooldown?
I don't personally know anyone who took the time and effort to get to exalted to try it out, and with the PTR down I don't think there will be many updates for a while.

I personally won't be using one unless it is truly godly, the hit rating on [Choker of Endless Nightmares] is too important.
#2851SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Grengorr View Post
unconfirmed (?) reports of Scryers rep giving a ~400 crittable arcane damage proc with unknown chance and cooldown?
I saw a SS of arcane strike and posted something on wowhead about the Scryers proc. I assume it has a 45 second cooldown like most other procs.
#2852SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pvita
@Anarki: Thanks for an answer, I will pounder how we could get it work generaly in a formula.

I played with Rawr and two thing came to my mind. How can you force Rawr to use hit gems in some sockets? What is the Expertise cap Rawr is using?
#2853SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
You can force Rawr to use a specific gem for a specific colored socket, nothing more than that. I'm using 6.5% base dodge for expertise related calculations.
#2854SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khaelarys
Originally Posted by pvita View Post
@Anarki: Thanks for an answer, I will pounder how we could get it work generaly in a formula.

I played with Rawr and two thing came to my mind. How can you force Rawr to use hit gems in some sockets? What is the Expertise cap Rawr is using?
I created copies of the items using the gems I wanted. Since most of my gemming was cut and dry, I only ended up making 2 items for gem customization and it was quick and simple.
#2855SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nemcova
This might seem a bit of a tangent, But lately ive been noticing that my threat is really really high on Council. I find myself holding back bad to the point where i would just be doing Crusader strike and then turning off auto attack.. and waiting for CS again.

has anyone else had this problem on that fight? Im pushing 1.6k TPS with holding back.. and im not sure if that fight is just buggy with KTM/Omen, or is there somethin different about that fight?
#2856SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
The only fight I ever have threat issues on is Bloodboil... are you using Salv as one of your buffs?
#2857SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Theras
Originally Posted by Nemcova View Post
This might seem a bit of a tangent, But lately ive been noticing that my threat is really really high on Council. I find myself holding back bad to the point where i would just be doing Crusader strike and then turning off auto attack.. and waiting for CS again.

has anyone else had this problem on that fight? Im pushing 1.6k TPS with holding back.. and im not sure if that fight is just buggy with KTM/Omen, or is there somethin different about that fight?
Your threat meter is buggered up; there's really no other explanation for it. Are you using KTM or are you using a Threat-1.0 compatible mod? If you're using the former, switch to the latter. If you're already using Omen, update it and its libraries, since something is amiss. Doing 1.6k TPS with Salv on it means you're doing 3265 DPS, which I somehow doubt.

Maybe if you were a Blood Elf...
#2858SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nemcova
We had 4 paladins in the raid, so yea i had all the proper blessings.

According to our WWS, i was maintaining 1371 DPS(7th in total dmg) while holding back alot. So im gonna have to get a new threat meter, cuz im sure i can rip those meters pretty good if i wasnt holding back half the time.

So would you suggest omen? any other specific add on names? cuz i never heard of a threat-1.0 capable mod

i use KTM, but thats the only boss that reports awkward numbers on, the rest its very accurate so i dont know whats up with that.
#2859SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nemcova
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
The only fight I ever have threat issues on is Bloodboil... are you using Salv as one of your buffs?
Yea, most of our melee generally has threat issues on Bboil, at this point we've stopped using a shaman in the melee group and switch it out for the tanks for more aggro gen.

this last lock, we had enough shamans to go around, so melee group had one. I ended up only Crusader striking during Bboil phase and going all out during fel rage. i hate being threat capped, its such a drag.
#2860SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Astrylian
Using KTM is your problem. KTM's calculations are completely wrong when there are multiple mobs involved. Against single mobs, KTM and Omen are almost identical, but when you get to multi mob fights, KTM is just wrong. Omen is a threat meter based on Threat-1.0. There are many addons that display threat that are based on Threat-1.0; if you have any of them, it syncs with the others. Most just use Omen, though Pitbull's unitframes include threat I think too.
#2861SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
While we are on the topic of threat, any word on if the Omen team have finished up the 2.4 version? I'm interested to see how much better omen does performance-wise due to the new combat log system.
#2862SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DarKNecross
Zrave, there are two things with Rawr I'm wondering. First, the 'Fight Duration' slider doesn't show values, which is confusing. Second, I was wondering if you were planning on incorporating Avenging Wrath into the calculations? Of course, these two things would probably be linked in the end (ie, fight lasts 4 minutes, that's 40 seconds of 30% DPS increase).
#2863SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
BB threat: Giving the tank group a shammy with WF and heroism helps out a lot.

Also the shammy in the melee group runs Tranquil Air Totem and then switches to WF during Fel rage.
#2864SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Strifen
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
BB threat: Giving the tank group a shammy with WF and heroism helps out a lot.
Yep this is a good idea. We turn our tank group into a semi meele dps group for this fight, and actually for most fights our tank group will look like one too. We'll put a resto shaman dropping wf, our 2 prot tanks, a feral druid, and usually a hunter. Having WF + BS + LotP + FI really, really helps with tank threat a bunch here. Make sure your hunters watch omen and have them MD on cooldown to whatever tank is lowest on threat at the time.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Also the shammy in the melee group runs Tranquil Air Totem and then switches to WF during Fel rage.
Your shaman should be twisting WF with tranq air if he's any good. Of course, if threat is still that big of a concern WF is pointless. For BB our meele group gets both tranq air and wf from the same shaman.
#2865SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
As has already been said, You want Omen. Get it Here. Remove KTM.
#2866SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3afastrunner
RAWR

I'd like to sugest that we start a new thread for RAWR retribution development/feedback/latest version. that way we have a front page that can be edited to have a link to newest version as well as no longer hijacking this thread.

P.S. I love RAWR and your doing a great job with it!
#2867SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nemcova
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Yep this is a good idea. We turn our tank group into a semi meele dps group for this fight, and actually for most fights our tank group will look like one too. We'll put a resto shaman dropping wf, our 2 prot tanks, a feral druid, and usually a hunter. Having WF + BS + LotP + FI really, really helps with tank threat a bunch here. Make sure your hunters watch omen and have them MD on cooldown to whatever tank is lowest on threat at the time.



Your shaman should be twisting WF with tranq air if he's any good. Of course, if threat is still that big of a concern WF is pointless. For BB our meele group gets both tranq air and wf from the same shaman.
our shaman usually twists grace and WF, me and the fury warrior are the only ones with aggro problems. he has double warglaives.. and im the utility paladin so my gear isnt exactly top notch.. so its annoying to feel threat capped.
#2868SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by afastrunner View Post
I'd like to sugest that we start a new thread for RAWR retribution development/feedback/latest version. that way we have a front page that can be edited to have a link to newest version as well as no longer hijacking this thread.

P.S. I love RAWR and your doing a great job with it!
Eh, there isn't too much going on in the world of ret (lack of 2.4 changes is le suck) so I'm not to worried about talking about Rwar.ret here.

Its up to you guys though.
#2869SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Agree with toaster. And the Rawr specific stuff is gonna die off more or less eventually at least in volume same as happened with the spreadsheet stuff.

Keep one thread imo.
#2870SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
Agree with Toaster/Avitus. A lot of the discussion regarding rawr also verifies the math and mechanics built into it, ensuring we have an accurate model. If we are gonna base a lot of our decisions on it, I think discussion on Rawr belongs here (at least until it gets out of hand).
#2871SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Furia
Hm so Hello
after 2 days of reading i manged to get through the last site ^^

Can sombody pleas look on my Armoryfile an help me out wiht my hit cap.. i think im 30 points over the cap...
but i find now way out..

Last edited by Furia : 03/20/08 at 12:58 PM.
#2872SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tekzor
Originally Posted by Furia View Post
Hm so Hello
after 2 days of reading i manged to get through the last site ^^

Can sombody pleas look on my Armoryfile an help me out wiht my hit cap.. i think im 30 points over the cap...
but i find now way out..
Being over the hit cap isn't the worst thing in the world, so don't worry. As you grab upgraded pieces--especially the new ones from sunwell, you'll find that extra hit rating becomes barely enough. If you are extremely worried, you could replace your helm enchant with [Glyph of the Outcast]. I don't really think it is worth the 90 gold though. =]
#2873SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jaegan
I discovered a seal of blood bug recently that blood elf paladins should keep in mind. If you judge blood while mid-swing, you will deal judgement damage but no white damage. If you use a judge/auto seal macro, you will do both seal and judge damage, but no white damage.

If you use a swing timer such as quartz, simply judge as soon as it reaches the end of the swing timer and your swing animation begins. You should see the yellow damage from the seal/judgement but no white numbers. I have tried to test this with seal of command, but have been unable to reproduce the effect of no auto-swing damage.

I did not see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread. If this indeed new information it would be worthwhile to repeat the process described and see if we can get any more insights into this bug.
#2874SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Simple answer is to only judge mid swing. I never chance judging near the end of the swing anyway since lag can cause me not to have an active seal just as autoswing hits.
#2875SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kazekan
On the topic of 4pc T6 bonus and socket bonuses...

According to a reliable source, the reason these are not being changed is because the gentleman who does these types of changes is well... yah.

They "could" do it, but it won't happen... That's about all I can really say. You'll just have to make the needed assumptions ><

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news >< Hopefully they'll get someone who can do these changes without much of a hassle eventually.
#2876SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
He's well what? Lazy? Unable? Incompetent? Doesn't care? A jerk?
#2877SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
On the topic of 4pc T6 bonus and socket bonuses...

According to a reliable source, the reason these are not being changed is because the gentleman who does these types of changes is well... yah.

They "could" do it, but it won't happen... That's about all I can really say. You'll just have to make the needed assumptions ><

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news >< Hopefully they'll get someone who can do these changes without much of a hassle eventually.

I've just ordered my ticket to the Blizzcon invitational in Paris and will be going with a bunch from my guild.

I'll make sure to bring this up in the Class Q/A session, in the most polite way I can...
#2878SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurm
While you're at it, bring up mana use in PvP!
#2879SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Bryne
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
On the topic of 4pc T6 bonus and socket bonuses...

According to a reliable source, the reason these are not being changed is because the gentleman who does these types of changes is well... yah.

They "could" do it, but it won't happen... That's about all I can really say. You'll just have to make the needed assumptions ><

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news >< Hopefully they'll get someone who can do these changes without much of a hassle eventually.
No, the reason that the T6 socket bonuses aren't being changed is because of the bug that exists when they're changed; you get both the old and new bonuses. Hortus already posted about that here: WoW Forums -> [Bug] Ret T6 gear has +spell socket bonuses

Your perplexingly vague comment about the set bonus not being changed - without any source to back you up - just smacks of a WoW forums whine about unfair developers who don't listen to us.
#2880SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Jaegan View Post
I discovered a seal of blood bug recently that blood elf paladins should keep in mind. If you judge blood while mid-swing, you will deal judgement damage but no white damage. If you use a judge/auto seal macro, you will do both seal and judge damage, but no white damage.

If you use a swing timer such as quartz, simply judge as soon as it reaches the end of the swing timer and your swing animation begins. You should see the yellow damage from the seal/judgement but no white numbers. I have tried to test this with seal of command, but have been unable to reproduce the effect of no auto-swing damage.

I did not see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread. If this indeed new information it would be worthwhile to repeat the process described and see if we can get any more insights into this bug.
I can't reproduce this bug. I use a judge/reseal macro, and I tried judging both mid-swing, and towards the end of the swing(before it was complete), and both judgement and white damage are dealt.

Just pasting relevant lines :

02:59'37.640 Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Zrave for 654 Holy damage
02:59'37.750 Zrave's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 4421

03:00'00.890 Zrave's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 3633
03:00'01.406 Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Teron Gorefiend for 675 Holy damage
03:00'04.265 Zrave's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 1734

03:00'28.609 Zrave's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 1521
03:00'28.718 Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Teron Gorefiend for 634 Holy damage
03:00'32.218 Zrave's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 1227 (glancing)
#2881SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kramer26
Spec trouble: Is ret for me?

Hey all!

I have been working on my ret pally for a while now and I hearing here and there that I will or will not be used for raids. My attack power is now getting up there and I'm starting to feel powerful now. Im seeing that I do more burst damage rather than dps and I have some massive crits.

However, is this the right spec for me?

I want to be sure I can get into raids and say to hell with the nay sayers. I love doing burst damage and being able to stand my own (wearing plate!) Someone once told me to stop wasting my time and make an arms warr since they have higher dps, dont use mana and last longer for raids.

I have tanked and healed before and never really cared for them. I want to be used in raids however and I love kicking ass when everything lines up. I wish only that there was some small increase in survivalbility. Shame theres not a sword and board spec that does damage lol.

I was almost looking at a shockie build...... haha

Let me know if I should just stick with this and say to hell with arms! I love my BE but I want to do the most damage I can and survive!
#2882SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elloris
Reroll hunter, then mash a macro if you want the biggest personal DPS value and to survive.

However if you have a raid leader with above 60 IQ that can crunch some basic numbers a good Ret specced Pally can be one of the most valuable DPS slots in the raid. Once you factor in the damage increase that 3% crit to the entire raid, and 2% damage to your group is, your DPS value goes way up. Plus other intagibles such as an extra round of buffs and JoL/ JoW you can be very useful. Most people that think a Ret pally isn't viable in a raid just haven't played with a good one.

Oh and I beat an equally gear Fury/ Arms warrior in personal DPS, 90% of the time.
#2883SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trakor
I don't know how to do it, but can anybody here plase also add Trueshot Aura and [Mark of the Champion] to Rawr?
#2884SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Jaegan
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
I can't reproduce this bug. I use a judge/reseal macro, and I tried judging both mid-swing, and towards the end of the swing(before it was complete), and both judgement and white damage are dealt.
I attempted to fraps this bug, but experienced some technical issues. In the meantime, this screenshot shows my combat log where I have a SoB hit and judgement but no white hit.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...X/BloodBug.jpg

Update:

You can see the bug in action by downloading a video I have uploaded.

WoW_2008-03-22_01-55-51-37.avi - FileFront.com

As a fair warning, I am a video capturing novice, so the quality is low and file size is high. It is about 200 mb for a 20 second clip, but you will be able to see the bug in action.

First swing: Parried
Second swing: Normal
Third swing: Only judgment of blood damage- no white damage or indication of a parry or dodge
Fourth swing: Normal
Fifth swing: Normal
Sixth swing: Only seal and judgement damage.

I hope this will help anyone trying to reproduce the bug or get some more insight into it. I've already posted the bug on the bug forum ( WoW Forums -> [Bug] Judgment of blood stopping white damage ). Feel free to add something if you can.

Last edited by Jaegan : 03/22/08 at 1:50 PM. Reason: Posting of video
#2885SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kazekan
Originally Posted by Bryne View Post
No, the reason that the T6 socket bonuses aren't being changed is because of the bug that exists when they're changed; you get both the old and new bonuses. Hortus already posted about that here: WoW Forums -> [Bug] Ret T6 gear has +spell socket bonuses

Your perplexingly vague comment about the set bonus not being changed - without any source to back you up - just smacks of a WoW forums whine about unfair developers who don't listen to us.
Actually, that was an excuse, but if you want to just take everything Blizz says at face value, go right ahead. It IS a bug... however it is one that "could" be resolved if people really wanted to (more specifically, a person).

And of course I'm being vague... how could I be utterly specific and not get someone in trouble? If you had actually read one of my earlier posts, you'd know where I was coming from.

Personally, I take some offense to your assumption that I'm just some forum troll trying to bring my "argument" to some new level. Your lack of understanding of my position has created an unnecessary flame on these forums. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.

Either way, believe me or don't. Shouldn't make much of a difference in your personal life when it comes down to it. Shouldn't even really make much of a difference in most people's lives since not many people have access to avenues that lead to real changes, besides posting en masse.
#2886SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
Actually, that was an excuse, but if you want to just take everything Blizz says at face value, go right ahead. It IS a bug... however it is one that "could" be resolved if people really wanted to (more specifically, a person).
If Blizzard really wanted to, they could fix many other things, too.

A few set bonus item points on a set most people don't have is small fry compared to other paladin issues. (Like scaling. Or hey, we could start another wave of complaining about the T6 4 piece ...)



As for not wanting to get someone in trouble, how does your information accomplish that goal? You get a few more grumpy paladins, and ... ?
#2887SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Bryne
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
And of course I'm being vague... how could I be utterly specific and not get someone in trouble? If you had actually read one of my earlier posts, you'd know where I was coming from.

Personally, I take some offense to your assumption that I'm just some forum troll trying to bring my "argument" to some new level. Your lack of understanding of my position has created an unnecessary flame on these forums. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.

Either way, believe me or don't. Shouldn't make much of a difference in your personal life when it comes down to it. Shouldn't even really make much of a difference in most people's lives since not many people have access to avenues that lead to real changes, besides posting en masse.
If your other posts are of the same informational quality, I think I'm all set. As Fiola just said, I'm sure there are quite a few things that "could" be changed but for whatever reason they aren't; your insinuation that this one isn't because one of the developers is lazy/incompetent/has a hatchet to bury without providing any actual information is just WoW forums trolling. If you can't quote sources just keep it to yourself.

In the unlikely case that you do actually have access to one of those avenues, you should use it to champion the cause of the unwashed masses in this thread rather than posting unsubstantiated flamebait.
#2888SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
(Like scaling. Or hey, we could start another wave of complaining about the T6 4 piece ...)
For my dollar, I'm going to keep posting my Seal of Blood thread on the official forums a couple times a day.

Have I even posted that in this thread yet?
#2889SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Xeres
Okay after browsing the last 40 pages of this thread I've found the retri Paladin 1.05 Version in debug mode compiled. Is it the last one or have I missed any other "release". I want to give it a try as the spreadsheet is bugging a bit much on German Excel ~~
#2890SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Turik
Originally Posted by Kazekan View Post
Actually, that was an excuse, but if you want to just take everything Blizz says at face value, go right ahead. It IS a bug... however it is one that "could" be resolved if people really wanted to (more specifically, a person).

And of course I'm being vague... how could I be utterly specific and not get someone in trouble? If you had actually read one of my earlier posts, you'd know where I was coming from.

Personally, I take some offense to your assumption that I'm just some forum troll trying to bring my "argument" to some new level. Your lack of understanding of my position has created an unnecessary flame on these forums. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.

Either way, believe me or don't. Shouldn't make much of a difference in your personal life when it comes down to it. Shouldn't even really make much of a difference in most people's lives since not many people have access to avenues that lead to real changes, besides posting en masse.
I think it's best for all parties involved to drop the discussion of credible informaiton. It's detracting from the purpose of the thread , and putting jobs on the line.
#2891SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rodimus Prime
Originally Posted by Turik View Post
I think it's best for all parties involved to drop the discussion of credible information. It's detracting from the purpose of the thread , and putting jobs on the line.
Don't take this out of context, or as a flame, or as a comment that the individual in question isn't doing their job - but generally if someone isn't doing their job, you bet damn well that I'd fire them, and so should every other employer. That's what you pay them for. I run my own company; if my employees think they can get away with not doing their job and continuing to get paid, they've got another thing coming.

Anyways, back to topic... Does anyone know if Seal of Blood or an aptly named equivalent has even been discussed in internal meetings? What I mean is that the math and evidence are pretty conclusive that Seal of Blood is far and away the superior Ret DPS seal, but nothing seems to have even been approached in terms of a solution. I just can't believe nobody at Blizzard would have taken notice by now given all the griping on their forums, and these forums as well.

EDIT: Edited for content/punctuation/grammar, it's super late here.
#2892SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sapp
They've always kept their cards close in terms of leaks. Usually all you get are patch notes in progress, rarely.

There's always people claiming to be leaking internal data but unless a blue says something it's impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The numbers have been posted and all plenty, hopefully they'll acknowledge it eventually.
#2893SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mind
Originally Posted by Jaegan View Post
I attempted to fraps this bug, but experienced some technical issues. In the meantime, this screenshot shows my combat log where I have a SoB hit and judgement but no white hit.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...X/BloodBug.jpg

Update:

You can see the bug in action by downloading a video I have uploaded.

WoW_2008-03-22_01-55-51-37.avi - FileFront.com

As a fair warning, I am a video capturing novice, so the quality is low and file size is high. It is about 200 mb for a 20 second clip, but you will be able to see the bug in action.

First swing: Parried
Second swing: Normal
Third swing: Only judgment of blood damage- no white damage or indication of a parry or dodge
Fourth swing: Normal
Fifth swing: Normal
Sixth swing: Only seal and judgement damage.

I hope this will help anyone trying to reproduce the bug or get some more insight into it. I've already posted the bug on the bug forum ( WoW Forums -> [Bug] Judgment of blood stopping white damage ). Feel free to add something if you can.
Saw the video, all damage its there, there is no loss. Pay attention to combat log!
Third swing: Dodge, this only visualy appears later, right before the next swing.
Sixth swing: 804 hit. Visual right before next swing, looked like a wf attack.

Its a visual delay, but white attacks are there so is damage. No bug.

Last edited by Mind : 03/23/08 at 7:48 AM.
#2894SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Renaud
Originally Posted by Elloris View Post
Reroll hunter, then mash a macro if you want the biggest personal DPS value and to survive.

However if you have a raid leader with above 60 IQ that can crunch some basic numbers a good Ret specced Pally can be one of the most valuable DPS slots in the raid. Once you factor in the damage increase that 3% crit to the entire raid, and 2% damage to your group is, your DPS value goes way up. Plus other intagibles such as an extra round of buffs and JoL/ JoW you can be very useful. Most people that think a Ret pally isn't viable in a raid just haven't played with a good one.

Oh and I beat an equally gear Fury/ Arms warrior in personal DPS, 90% of the time.
QFT I recently missed my first night of raiding since going ret in early January. The WWS was turned in, we were 3k under the raid dps of an equivalent night. They had no DPS fillin for the evening (i had a bit of an emergency) so they had an extra healer, but 3k DPS was missing. The raid leader says "Oh, this must be because of flasks and such not being used!" looking at WWS, flasks were used. The warlocks say "We must have not been dotting enough!" They had the same number of spell casts (within +/- 5%). Then the BM Hunter says "I had no JoWisdom, I had crap for mana!", but this was a correct statement. My personal DPS is around 1.2-1.3k, but the mana added to other mana using DPS'ers, along with the 3% crit (spell/melee/ranged), with 2% damage to my group, is significantly more substantial.

I do not claim that all of this dps is because of me, but I believe a few of my guildies now notice how used to having the extra mana/crit/dmg around they are. Although, it wouldn't be a raid if I wasn't berated in vent for my choice in spec. (Don't worry, it is all in fun... and I trashtalk all the DPS'ers I beat on the meters (which is all but 2 or 3))

Last edited by Renaud : 03/23/08 at 9:52 AM.
#2895SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
Although, it wouldn't be a raid if I wasn't berated in vent for my choice in spec. (Don't worry, it is all in fun... and I trashtalk all the DPS'ers I beat on the meters (which is all but 2 or 3))
This is a really strange thing to say. In my raid , sure there is some competitiveness, but we don't trash talk each other, even if it's just joking. For the guy on the bottom of the pile, it's not a lot of fun and builds resentment. If you're not bottom of the pile, you might not know this.

Sure we look at damage meters but I don't think it's ever a race. It's more a competition with yourself to try and do the most you can. No one is berated for their spec, if you have such a horrible talent setup then you simply don't get put on the raid list. That said, everyone is willing to work their talent spec to the benefit of the raid, myself included.

If someone is under performing in any way, including people who over do it on the dps and cause wipes (we used to have a mage who did this) then the officers sort it out quietly and calmly. The point is the raid, the team. If the team is doing what is needed that is what matters.

I'm the only Ret pally in my raid. I raid most days these days but not all the time, and the times I am not there? They cope by having someone else in and play styles (for things like jow, set of blessings) adjust because everyone knows what they are doing.

Anyway, I came here hoping to see more info on the T6 4 piece bonus. I assume no new news and it's still crappy? It's so late in the patch development cycle now I very much doubt we'll see any radical changes. It's such a shame that something so important to our class gets over looked, for whatever reason. Is this the last patch before WoTLK does anyone know? Think we might see something when they introduce the S4 stuff? I'm not really up to speed on the expected timescale of this stuff.
#2896SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
Anyway, I came here hoping to see more info on the T6 4 piece bonus. I assume no new news and it's still crappy? It's so late in the patch development cycle now I very much doubt we'll see any radical changes. It's such a shame that something so important to our class gets over looked, for whatever reason. Is this the last patch before WoTLK does anyone know? Think we might see something when they introduce the S4 stuff? I'm not really up to speed on the expected timescale of this stuff.
The devs are waiting until WotLK to review Ret again. The goal is to make it dps Warrior and Ret Pally gear is the same, so a few things need some work like Seal of Command and mana regen.

2.4 will be the last patch (discounting 2.4.1+ bug fix patches), however if Wrath gets really delayed there may be another patch.

S4 will come out once Sunwell progress is going and once the devs feel S3 has run its course. Hard to tell when that is has being reached, but it will not be a couple weeks after 2.4.
#2897SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The devs are waiting until WotLK to review Ret again. The goal is to make it dps Warrior and Ret Pally gear is the same, so a few things need some work like Seal of Command and mana regen.
If I may be devil's advocate here, I personally think that Blizzard knows very well what's wrong with ret paladins and how to fix it, but based on their "market research" it will sell more copies and keep more people hooked if they just give us small fixes here and there and keep saying "soon, next patch, next expansion everything will be better".

They will never truly fix everything, because whining about inequalities/hoping for fixes, is part of what keeps people hooked, which sustains the cash flow. It's all a money game.

This is the core of all (justified) complaints and why they will never really end.


I said this a few pages back, but Ret needs 3 immediate fixes in order to be "fixed":

-SoB for alliance
-Spell mechanics change (replace spellhit/spelldamage dependency with melee stat dependency for all our spells or alternatively let paladins gain some spellhit/spelldamage from equivalent melee stats)
-Mana issues (Some way to not be 100% dependent on raid for our mana, especially in the 0 mana/regen sunwell gear).

I can see it already, Sunwell hits and the whining will be legendary about these 3 points (especially the first one, given the extreme gap that will arrise as soon as paladins on both sides start getting decked out with sob-friendly sunwell itemization and the first WWS reports start showing up).


Sorry for the slight tangent, just some food for though I believe needed to be mentioned
#2898SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Those first two points are vital i agree. I also think they are obvious which is a shame why nothing has been done. The 3 point I also agree with but I'm not so concerned about it as the first two. It won't matter how much complaining people do about it however, they won't fix it. They might fix it in WotLK but I suspect that in itself will bring a whole new host of problems, imbalances and difficulties, which will not be quite resolved until the following expansion after that, etc etc.

2.4 is a positive step, at least for me so I guess I can't grumble too much.
#2899SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Yea I pretty much sort them by importance really.

If we get no.1, no.2 will be less important since we won't be using SoC (partially gains from spelldamage) and JoC (uses spellhit!) anymore.

No.3 is partially a re-balance. The thing is, with great difficulty we've adapted and become accustomed to going an extra mile, almost no other class/spec has to. Spamming mana pots in 10 mans just to keep up is a big meh. Arena it's horrible to get mana burned/endurance fights.

PvP (without a healer) is a joke. My WSG routine revolves around taking the green leaf every time it's up.

Not to pick up old discussions, but it was really about gear scaling combat endurance for almost all classes/specs except paladins.

Yet a naked paladin and a paladin in t6 will be able to "fight" for the exact same duration pretty much since there's 0 regen.


The resurrection of this issue comes at a time when they decided to put us in one group with warrior itemisation in sunwell, which has 0 int. Even our T6 bracers/boots/belt have 0 int. Hence a mana mechanic has to be added.

For once, not more mana conservation (benediction/sanctified judgement), but actual mana REGEN would be the key. Evocate, AP -> mp5, damage -> mana, shamanistic rage, some sort of 2nd seal up (JoW), whatever, they can take their pick, there are lots of options.
#2900SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Paladins as a whole have huge regeneration issues.

Look at every other class, they either don't use mana (Rogues, Warriors, Kitty Druids) or have some form of heavy activated regen ability.

Shamans: Mana Tide Totem, Shamanistic Rage
Priests: Shadowfiend
Druids: Innervate
Mages: Evocation
Warlocks: Lifetap
Hunters: Aspect of the Viper

Paladins: Nothing

Mana regen for all paladins is a huge problem, especially with another non-mana using melee class coming out in WotLK (Death Knights) to compete for raid spots with for two of our specs (and Holy Paladins already being replaced by-and-large by Priests and Druids). If our mana issues isn't addressed by the next expansion I will be more than a little angry at the developers for ignoring such a large oversight (especially if they want us wearing god-awful hit rating to the extreme fury warrior crap).

I think the devs are still worried about the old beta powerhouse that was the Paladin class (oh Holy Strike, how I miss thee). We remain to this day a class that is balanced around 12 seconds of immunity every 5 minutes (or, against any halfway decent team, 1.5 seconds of immunity every 5 minutes) for PvP, and now that the devs are hell bent on e-sport status everything is going to be balanced around that blasted arena.

All things considered though I think TBC has been a relative success for the class. The goal of TBC was to make hybrids viable in all three forms to at least some extent, and more or less it has been accomplished. Protection Pallys are almost universally accepted if not desired in some cases, Retribution has finally began to come into its own, and though Holy Paladins are now arguably the weakest healer in both organized PvP and PvE they still maintain their status and raid spots. Things sure could use a lot of work, but they are a lot better than MC 1.0 cleanse spam.
#2901SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orkyben
Hello again.

Ran a little test this evening regarding JoW proccing off of Vindication.

I was in my PVP build, with 3/3 in Vindication, judged Wisdom on one of those Blasted Lands mobs and just auto-attacked it in my tanking gear for several hours, casting a Holy Light every 15 minutes or so.

I used the "Recount" mod, and these are the results I gained.



2736 hits, and 542 crits - thats 3278 white attacks.



In the time I gained 118'992 Mana from Judgment of Wisdom, divided by 74 - thats 1608 JoW Procs.

= 49.05% proc rate for JoW.

I would have thought I would have observed a slightly higher proc rate, considering I had the Vindication talent. Maybe time for a bigger sample. Any ideas?
#2902SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Herzak
I thought vindication only procs Judgement of Wisdom on "immune" mobs (ala boss mobs), blasted lands mobs can be affected by vindication I believe.
#2903SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
I think you try to form a basis of comparison. That is, beat on the Blasted Lands Servant again, except without Vindication, to check your proc rate.
#2904SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Renaud
This is a really strange thing to say. In my raid , sure there is some competitiveness, but we don't trash talk each other, even if it's just joking. For the guy on the bottom of the pile, it's not a lot of fun and builds resentment. If you're not bottom of the pile, you might not know this.
Pardon my poor word choice, I was fairly sleepy when posting. A few of my guildies (good friends) make fun of my retness. (They make fun of my "poor" dps, which is to say, higher than their dps. In other words, it is a joke, sarcasm, etc) Also a few of my friends (who I have known in RL or IG for over 5 years) end up lower than me in the Damage Meters, if I were to not point this out back at them, they would be sorely disappointed. Just believe me, there is endless <3 in the guild, yet... I still find room in my heart to hate them just a little bit for fun! (O.o)

Anyway, that was all based off of an offhand "funny" comment, so yeah.. just ignore it, we <3 each other.

I know Vindication does hit VR and the Weapons on KT, do we know if this actually lowers their DPS/Health? Or is it just a bug? (Wondering if I can justify putting more than the 1 point into Vindication)

I'm not exactly sure how to even test for the effects of Vindication.
#2905SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
flyingtoastr
Alright, I know its a few days late, but I needed to check my math a few times over. I fixed a ton of errors that I had in the last post, from rotations (for example, Moonkin) to mechanics (for example, Seal of Command now correctly procs Judgement of Wisdom while Seal of Blood does not). I also tried to include the talent build being assumed for each spec, though I am not positive of their accuracy in some cases (Mages in particular). This time I also included multiple cast rotations where needed.

That being said, this is still a major work in progress. I'm especially having problems with the Enhancement Shamans because of their wacky Windfury and Dual Wielding jazz, but I'll iron it out soon enough and update the list. Anyway, without further ado, here is version 1.0 of the patch 2.4 Judgement of Wisdom list.



These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. Self buffs are considered into the calculations, but no outside factors (Windfury Totem) are included. All talents/abilities are patch 2.4 versions. Your results will vary.

Drinking Super Mana Potions on cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users equals 130.88 Mp5 (Per player)

Druid
Balance
Rotation 1: Moonfire, Starfire x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 70.48 Mp5

Rotation 2: Starfire, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 61.67 Mp5
Hunter
All Specs
Rotation 1: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Repeat
Attack Speed: 2.10 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 220.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Arcane/Multi Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.44 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 227.46 Mp5
Mage
Fire
Rotation 1: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Rotation 1: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Arcane
Rotation 1: Arcane Blast x3, Arcane Missiles, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.08 Mp5
Paladin
Protection
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Judgement of Righteousness, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 124.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 147.32 Mp5

Rotation 3: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 106.81 Mp5

Rotation 4: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.39 Mp5
Priest
Shadow
Rotation 1: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5
Shaman
Elemental
Rotation 1: Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 118.40 Mp5

Enhancement
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Earth Shock, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.6 seconds/2.6 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 317.63 Mp5
Warlock
Affliction
Rotation 1: Curse of Something, Siphon Life, Unstable Afflicition, Corruption, Shadowbolt, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 100.91 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Shadowbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Immolate, Incinerate x6, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 86.33 Mp5


A couple of things I could use some help on:
1. Can Seal of Righteousness proc Judgement of Wisdom?
2. Does the DoT application of Seal of Vengeance proc Judgement of Wisdom?
3. Does the DoT refresh damage of Seal of Vengeance proc Judgement of Wisdom?
4. Can Holy Shield proc Judgement of Wisdom?
5. Can Blessing of Sanctuary proc Judgement of Wisdom?
6. Do we have a conclusive answer as to whether Vindication procs Judgement of Wisdom or not?

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/24/08 at 10:58 AM.
#2906SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Prinsesa
I believe there was some discussion buried in this thread where a Retadin in ZA noticed a precipitous decrease in HP once Vindication procced on a trash mob.

As I recall, because of how max HP works, this is only useful if the mob is at 86% HP or more, which in itself depends on how powerful your raid DPS is and how lucky you are on getting a lucky Vindication proc.
#2907SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lambach
For the moonkin rotations;

Any raiding moonkin is more then likely using one of the following:

Rotation 1: Moonfire, Starfirex3
Rotation 2: Starfire spam.

With Imp FF rotated in every 3-4 rotations of the first, or every 15 or so casts(more likely 17ish) of the 2nd one.

Insect swarm is often not wanted by tanks, and is a large drop in dps. Wrath spam is a large dps decrease in 99% of gear choices.
#2908SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Exemplar
Vindication affects a mob's (or player's) "attributes." This means Str, Agi, Sta, Int, Spi. It does not mean Maximum Health or Maximum Mana pool.

Many (most? all?) mobs have 0 or very low stats. For an easy example, put a Blessing of Kings on a friendly mob (that will accept it, many cannot be buffed - try Naturalist Bite in SP or Akama on Illidan P1) and watch their Health not change. If they had Stamina to increase by 10% their Maximum Health would increase and they could be healed to this new cap.

As such, Vindication was mostly seen as a PvP talent (players have stats to reduce). The possibility (proved in a screenshot in this thread, or so I thought) that Vindication can proc JoW, even on immune mobs, made it desirable in PvE.

Theory to explain it not giving increased returns in the grinding test above:
Could someone check if Vindication only "procs" once on an application, then does not re-proc when it refreshes? This would lead to the grinding example not producing JoW procs regularly (Vindication only procced once). The fact that bosses are immune to Vindication would cause it to attempt to proc repeatedly, each time having the chance to proc JoW, too.

Otherwise we may have been fooled by the Combat Log again in the aforementioned screenshot. The double Wis proc right after Vindication in a log could be CS or WF or something else which didn't hit the log for another full second after the JoW proc or similar combat log lameness.
#2909SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flyingtoastr
Thank you Lambach, Moonkin has been fixed (and I apologize for your terrible returns from JoW).
#2910SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Alborak
I apologize for the "noobish" post but, I've been having some trouble getting into raids as Ret spec. I know that part of the issue is that 1) We're already slightly melee heavy. 2) I'm a fairly strong healer.

I just have a sneaking suspicion my officers don't really believe in the contribution of ret paladins. I'm looking for something definitive that i can point to, to help illustrate the point. I was able to go to BT 1-4 as ret earlier this month due to a lack of dps, ended up top 5 on teron with like 1300ish dps (Progression level is 8/9 ATM). I WWS'd it, and pulled the top JoW & JoL receivers out here: JoW + JoL Chart

(Bohica is oddshot's pet)
What I see from this, is that JoW is powerful, but what it really seems to do is save mana pots for mages or elemental shaman, and a few lifetaps from Warlocks. I suppose that the mages could then use Destruction pots(Or another, not sure on whats avilable for casters).

I tried to use the JoTC contribution spreadsheet in the OP but I've found it cumbersome and difficult to use. Is there anything else similar that I can use, or any anecdotal evidence i can use to help change spec? I know i have some fine tuning to do with getting the rotation down a bit better, but that will come with time and practice, which is hard to come by atm.

Oh, and to add something constructive, Couldn't we use WWS to help confirm that Vindication procs Jow? The only Data I have available is the above teron fight: Rousse - WWS. I know it is a very small data sample, but i see 175 total tic opportunities[71 + 34 + 29 + 12 + 11 + 18] (IIRC consecration can only proc it on the first tic? so thats 142/8 = ~18) and 165 JoW procs. That'd have to be an obscenely lucky proc rate to not proc off of vindication which i had, unless i really messed up the napkin math.

Last edited by Alborak : 03/24/08 at 1:32 PM.
#2911SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Lambach View Post
Insect swarm is often not wanted by tanks...
You might want to look into solving that problem. Something is very wrong with a tank that doesn't want to get hit 2% less.

EDIT: Hey Alborak. Say hi to Odd/Redplague/Eutou/etc for me.
#2912SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post

Theory to explain it not giving increased returns in the grinding test above:
Could someone check if Vindication only "procs" once on an application, then does not re-proc when it refreshes? This would lead to the grinding example not producing JoW procs regularly (Vindication only procced once). The fact that bosses are immune to Vindication would cause it to attempt to proc repeatedly, each time having the chance to proc JoW, too.
That makes a lot of sense really. By some odd strange thing, it could be beneficial to us that mobs are immune to it, especially since it has very little bearing on how it effects their stats.

A true test would come by beating on something that has lots of hp, doesn't hit very hard and is immune to vindication. Any ideas?
#2913SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Merple
Quick question:

Post 2.4, will [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] still be a top 5 trinket for Ret Paladins?
#2914SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Quick question:

Post 2.4, will [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] still be a top 5 trinket for Ret Paladins?

If you use exorcism/consecration spam, it's no.1.

Otherwise it's still in the top 5 (if you're using SoC), considering SoC and JoC still benefit from spelldamage and a static 120 AP + 80 Spelldamage is pretty hefty.
#2915SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3noth
shard of contempt will out-pace DC:C I believe, actually. At least, bellator's spreadsheet tells me so
#2916SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tarja
Originally Posted by Herzak View Post
I thought vindication only procs Judgement of Wisdom on "immune" mobs (ala boss mobs), blasted lands mobs can be affected by vindication I believe.
This is an issue I've been trying to pin down for quite some time now (going back to page 33 in this thread). I always raid with 3/3 vindication (mostly since I usually don't bother to respec 0/20/41 for PVP), and ever since the 2.3 patch came out, I've noticed an inordinate amount of mana regenerated from JoW. Our WWS reports often show me with more JoW procs than the dualwielding enhancement shaman, and rapidfiring beastmaster hunters, even though I obviously have many less total attacks. So I'm about 99% certain that something strange is going on.

My initial thought was that the "<Boss> is immune to your vindication" message was proccing JoW, since that would definitely account for a huge number of "phantom attacks". However, when I tested this by soloing vindication-immune Stratholme bosses by only autoattacking with JoW up, I never once saw JoW proc twice off a swing where "Vindication immune" procced. So I'm thinking that this means that the phantom JoW procs are not likely to be coming from Vindication immune messages.

My next guess, is that maybe it has something to do with the same mechanic that makes you take damage from refreshing judgements on Zuljin phase 3. If each crusader strike counted as a new (magical) attack for every judgement that you refresh, that might add up to enough phantom attacks to explain all the extra JoW procs, and also explain why you get zapped on ZJ phase 3 as if you cast a spell.
#2917SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Buliwyf
So you mean by refreshing JoW which each swing, is casting a spell that actually also procs JoW? If that were the case then surely all of us would be getting loads of extra mana no?

Last edited by Buliwyf : 03/24/08 at 9:56 PM. Reason: Capitals
#2918SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fiola
Originally Posted by tarja View Post
...

My next guess, is that maybe it has something to do with the same mechanic that makes you take damage from refreshing judgements on Zuljin phase 3. If each crusader strike counted as a new (magical) attack for every judgement that you refresh, that might add up to enough phantom attacks to explain all the extra JoW procs, and also explain why you get zapped on ZJ phase 3 as if you cast a spell.
Crusader strike judgement refreshes do not cause you to get zapped on ZJ phase 3. I noticed that because I let my judgement (JotC) drop off, but maintained the other paladin's JoW for most of the phase.

It's only refreshing your own judgement with auto-attack that triggers the zap. (I've also never seen CS trigger a spell damage charge of DM:C)


As for JoW and Vindication, I'm gonna try using JoW instead of JotC and see what Recount records.
#2919SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Herzak
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Crusader strike judgement refreshes do not cause you to get zapped on ZJ phase 3. I noticed that because I let my judgement (JotC) drop off, but maintained the other paladin's JoW for most of the phase.

It's only refreshing your own judgement with auto-attack that triggers the zap. (I've also never seen CS trigger a spell damage charge of DM:C)


As for JoW and Vindication, I'm gonna try using JoW instead of JotC and see what Recount records.
I'm thinking maybe crusader strike judgement refresh and melee attack judgement refresh uses different refresh mechanics?

Here is the theories that I thought out:

Melee attack applies a "new" judgement on your target, meaning if you got JoW(A) on a target, you melee hit, it'll then apply JoW(B) which is considered a "new spell". This will explain the "bugged" Libram of Avengement and how refreshing judgements with melee hits can proc "Spellsurge" enchant.

While Crusader strike refreshes the judgements on your target, meaning if you got JoW(A) on a target, you Crusader Strike, it'll then reset the timer on JoW(A) so you aren't casting a "new spell"
#2920SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Meuble
So you mean by refreshing JoW which each swing, is casting a spell that actually also procs JoW? If that were the case then surely all of us would be getting loads of extra mana no?
Whenever you have a judgement on your target, each of your attacks cause an offensive spells to happen, and so, have another chance of triggering JoW.
Look at the chaman's Grounding Totem. If you put any judgement on a cham, and if he casts Grounding afterthat, your 1st white hit will destroy it (edit: I meant, use the Grounding buff).
Same thing with mobs with spellreflect: Hitting them will instantly put you under the judgement you have on them.

That doesn't tells us if Vindication actually procs JoW, I just wanted to make sure that everybody could agree on that.
#2921SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0sag_ich_nicht
Originally Posted by noth View Post
shard of contempt will out-pace DC:C I believe, actually. At least, bellator's spreadsheet tells me so
It will if you are a Dwarf, it won't if you are a Human, assuming the best possible equip, Dwarfs & Draenei are best of with DC:C + Shard of Contempt while Humans are better of with DC:C & Dragonspine Trophy, but this assume the ultimately best gear possible ingame. Didn't check Bloodelfs yet tho.
#2922SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Rasputin
Blood Elves will be working with a Shard of Contempt and a DST since we have no appreciable benefit from spell damage and a great deal of benefit from haste, while lacking the expertise racial of humans.

Last edited by Rasputin : 03/25/08 at 11:53 AM. Reason: too many commas!
#2923SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Merple
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Blood Elves will be working with a Shard of Contempt and a DST since we have no appreciable benefit from spell damage and a great deal of benefit from haste, while lacking the expertise racial of humans.
That's laying a pretty strong assumption that a Ret Paladin would have a chance at getting the DST before the nth drop. I know in my guild, considering the number of Rogues and Warriors without it, I won't be getting it anytime soon.

So the question arises. What comes after DST? I imagine it'd be TT, but I'm not 100% sure. My spreadsheet still shows the Darkmoon card as the biggest increase.
#2924SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Rasputin
I was just discussing optimal gear choices. I believe the next best trinket is the Berserker's Call from Zul'aman, although the Tsunami Talisman would be close.
#2925SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0mickeyknox
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
That's laying a pretty strong assumption that a Ret Paladin would have a chance at getting the DST before the nth drop. I know in my guild, considering the number of Rogues and Warriors without it, I won't be getting it anytime soon.

So the question arises. What comes after DST? I imagine it'd be TT, but I'm not 100% sure. My spreadsheet still shows the Darkmoon card as the biggest increase.
DST is also terrible for druids, and the best trinket ingame for paladins.
#2926SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by mickeyknox View Post
DST is also terrible for druids, and the best trinket ingame for paladins.
Uhh, no? DST is the best trinket in the game for cats, too. DST's godlike for tons of classes/specs.
#2927SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Merple
Originally Posted by mickeyknox View Post
DST is also terrible for druids, and the best trinket ingame for paladins.
If this was in reference to the class indicated to the left, I was refering to a paladin alt of mine. Not "me" as in Driveshaft. Apologies if I confused anyone.

Besides, Driveshaft is a tank. The only way I'd roll on a DST is if nobody else wanted it.
#2928SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0mickeyknox
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Uhh, no? DST is the best trinket in the game for cats, too. DST's godlike for tons of classes/specs.

I'd love to see numbers on that, haste does a hell of a lot more for someone with a 3.5+ speed weapon, than it does for a cat with a 1.0 speed weapon.


Originally Posted by Merple View Post
If this was in reference to the class indicated to the left, I was refering to a paladin alt of mine. Not "me" as in Driveshaft. Apologies if I confused anyone.

Besides, Driveshaft is a tank. The only way I'd roll on a DST is if nobody else wanted it.

Yeah, it's absolutely insane for hunters and (BE) paladins, they both have no upgrade from DST currently. I can't say I know that rogues/warriors are in the same boat as the aforementioned, but I'm positive cats aren't.
#2929SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by mickeyknox View Post
I'd love to see numbers on that, haste does a hell of a lot more for someone with a 3.5+ speed weapon, than it does for a cat with a 1.0 speed weapon.
Percent increases give the same % benefit to all weapon speeds. The math is very thorough. Rawr - Release: Rawr b12.1

Originally Posted by mickeyknox
Yeah, it's absolutely insane for hunters and (BE) paladins, they both have no upgrade from DST currently. I can't say I know that rogues/warriors are in the same boat as the aforementioned, but I'm positive cats aren't.
DST has no upgrade for cats. I'm wondering if you're just trolling.
#2930SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Alborak
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
You might want to look into solving that problem. Something is very wrong with a tank that doesn't want to get hit 2% less.
Well that depends on situation. Warriors in the T6 non set pieces can have obscene ammounts of pure avoid + miss, and have real rage & threat issues. This is the case for my guild at current. Last mother our MT got some "lucky" rolls and ended up with 85% total avoidance for the fight. If it wern't for gimpy SR gear, every DPS would have been threat capped easily. Not a tanking thread, I know, just wanted to point out the eventual downside of too much avoidance.

Originally Posted by Merple
That's laying a pretty strong assumption that a Ret Paladin would have a chance at getting the DST before the nth drop. I know in my guild, considering the number of Rogues and Warriors without it, I won't be getting it anytime soon.
This depends on your progression level of your guild and server, but one thing people in my guild have started doing, is running PUG Gruul's, with DST being reserved for the organizer of the raid. Having one or 2 of your Main raiding tanks come helps quite a bit with this. Once that person gets it, another takes over. I will probably be running the next series.
#2931SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by sag_ich_nicht View Post
It will if you are a Dwarf, it won't if you are a Human, assuming the best possible equip, Dwarfs & Draenei are best of with DC:C + Shard of Contempt while Humans are better of with DC:C & Dragonspine Trophy, but this assume the ultimately best gear possible ingame. Didn't check Bloodelfs yet tho.
Actually as a Human you will have a bit of extra expertise from the trinket but not enough to devalue it. I'm still going to be rocking a SoC as soon as possible.
#2932SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Rasputin
Can we please leave the relative worth of the DST out of this thread? It has its own contentious thread elsewhere on these very boards. Just assume it's the best physical DPS trinket ingame for anyone who might use it and leave this thread to discussions of actual ret paladin mechanics.
#2933SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Just assume it's the best physical DPS trinket ingame for anyone who might use it
This is wrong, because while DST is very good the [Shard of Contempt] beats it quite easily (if you aren't capped already) by a fairly large margin.
#2934SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Rasputin
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
This is wrong, because while DST is very good the [Shard of Contempt] beats it quite easily (if you aren't capped already) by a fairly large margin.
True enough now that 2.4 is out. I'm just tired of this useless discussion over who makes the best use of the DST.
#2935SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khaelarys
Is there a permalink to the latest and greatest RAWR distribution that I can link to on my site?

It's a really great tool that I would love to share easily with my guild, and some others.
#2936SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
Is there a permalink to the latest and greatest RAWR distribution that I can link to on my site?

It's a really great tool that I would love to share easily with my guild, and some others.
The latest release of Rawr, b12.1, doesn't include Ret support. I'm guessing that it'll be in b13, which will be in a week or two. Otherwise, Anarkii, didn't you release a copy at some point in the last couple weeks that included your current development version? Or are people just getting it from source control and building it themselves (which everyone is perfectly welcome to do, of course)?
#2937SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
The latest release of Rawr, b12.1, doesn't include Ret support. I'm guessing that it'll be in b13, which will be in a week or two. Otherwise, Anarkii, didn't you release a copy at some point in the last couple weeks that included your current development version? Or are people just getting it from source control and building it themselves (which everyone is perfectly welcome to do, of course)?
No, there's a link to a debug build and there's an updated items file - I was just looking for something I could link to in order to pass it along and for updates. I'm running it with no issues. (Once I figured out I could duplicate items and change their gems).

I can link the post I got it from, and then the post where the items are updated, but that's not really the best practice.
#2938SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Astrylian
Well, once b13 hits (assuming Anarkii says the ret model is ready for wide release), Rawr - Release: Rawr b12.1 will be the permalink. Until then, wherever Anarkii posted is it.
#2939SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0xing
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
No, there's a link to a debug build and there's an updated items file - I was just looking for something I could link to in order to pass it along and for updates. I'm running it with no issues. (Once I figured out I could duplicate items and change their gems).

I can link the post I got it from, and then the post where the items are updated, but that's not really the best practice.
You have a itemcache.xml with the 2.4 changes?

Edit: I found this post http://elitistjerks.com/667452-post2713.html - is there any newer 2.4 item files floating about?
#2940SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Mearis
Originally Posted by mickeyknox View Post
DST is also terrible for druids, and the best trinket ingame for paladins.
It is also the best DPS trinket in game for druids I believe. Edit, beaten.
#2941SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Avitus
I hope they fix the skin on the Sunwell T6 ret items (wrist/belt/boots).

Last I checked (PTR), they were the same light golden color of the healer/prot parts, while all our sunwell gear (which we share with warriors) is the dark color that fits with the warrior T6 wrist/belt/boots.

Pretty lame to have a matching set and then odd bright boots/belt.
#2942SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I hope they fix the skin on the Sunwell T6 ret items (wrist/belt/boots).

Last I checked (PTR), they were the same light golden color of the healer/prot parts, while all our sunwell gear (which we share with warriors) is the dark color that fits with the warrior T6 wrist/belt/boots.

Pretty lame to have a matching set and then odd bright boots/belt.
I think the coloring is done by class (pally type gear gets gold, warriors get blue), so I won't be astonished that it is so ugly.
#2943SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Avitus
Yep. Yet the classless plate dps set fits the warrior colors, hence the need for a fix.
#2944SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Well, once b13 hits (assuming Anarkii says the ret model is ready for wide release), Rawr - Release: Rawr b12.1 will be the permalink. Until then, wherever Anarkii posted is it.
I'll be ready for public release by b13.
#2945SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khaelarys
Originally Posted by xing View Post
You have a itemcache.xml with the 2.4 changes?

Edit: I found this post http://elitistjerks.com/667452-post2713.html - is there any newer 2.4 item files floating about?
That's what I'm using. I've had to add maybe one or two pieces from heroic Terrace, but otherwise it has pretty much anything I've needed on it.
#2946SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Saltycracker
Quick question. I have gotten fel rage my fair share, and I have never gotten to use avenging wrath during a fel rage. Does anyone else have this issue?
#2947SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Quick question. I have gotten fel rage my fair share, and I have never gotten to use avenging wrath during a fel rage. Does anyone else have this issue?
It makes you immune to Forbearance. So you can't gain BoP, Divine Shield or Avenging Wrath during Fel Rage.
#2948SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Zurm
Just a heads up, I picked up a [Shivering Felspine] yesterday. It dropped off Kalecgos trash, and its a very nice upgrade over the Torch. I haven't been able to test it on a pure burn fight yet such as Teron, but it certainly feels like the 2nd best BE ret weapon in the game
#2949SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Xelopheris
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Just a heads up, I picked up a [Shivering Felspine] yesterday. It dropped off Kalecgos trash, and its a very nice upgrade over the Torch. I haven't been able to test it on a pure burn fight yet such as Teron, but it certainly feels like the 2nd best BE ret weapon in the game
You are two trash pulls from a burn fight once you get Kalecgos down. It's amongst the better BE weapons, with Apolyon and the brutal gladiator weapons taking the lead (maybe one more too that I'm forgetting)
#2950SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Buliwyf
Isn't the Badge Axe of Harbingers supposed to be better?
#2951SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
Isn't the Badge Axe of Harbingers supposed to be better?
Nope.

Shivering Felspine
The Blade of Harbingers

393 - 590 Damage Speed 3.50
375 - 563 Damage Speed 3.50

(140.4 damage per second)
(134.0 damage per second)

+52 Agility ()
Yellow Socket 5 crit
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 55 (2.49% @ L70).


Equip: Improves haste rating by 53 (3.36% @ L70).
Equip: Improves haste rating by 53 (3.36% @ L70).

Equip: Increases attack power by 120.
Socket Bonus: +4 Attack Power
Yellow Socket 5 str
Equip: Increases attack power by 108.
#2952SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Anarkii
Shivering Felspine is better than S4 weapon too for BElfs. Interesting to see that they changed it to a trash drop.
#2953SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0RADRyanD
I have been looking at MaxDPS.com for awhile now as a rough estimate of increasing DPS. My first question is about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and trinket setup for my own character. Would it be best to use [Shard of Contempt] in combination with [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] or [Berserker's Call]. Unfortunately we stopped running Gruul's for DST and I won't be seeing that anytime soon.

Second question would be people that have already used the [Shard of Contempt]. When it procs, will it stack AP with the use effect of [Berserker's Call]? I knew before that it would not stack with [Bloodlust Brooch] but am not sure if it was the same with the Shard. Haven't been able to find an answer. =[
#2954SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Avitus
On use effect should stack with proc effect. The only reason you can't stack Brooch and Berserker's Call is because they share the same activation cooldown.
#2955SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Zurm
Originally Posted by RADRyanD View Post
I have been looking at MaxDPS.com for awhile now as a rough estimate of increasing DPS. My first question is about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and trinket setup for my own character. Would it be best to use [Shard of Contempt] in combination with [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] or [Berserker's Call]. Unfortunately we stopped running Gruul's for DST and I won't be seeing that anytime soon.
I've been doing a lot of research into this, because I'm in the same situation. While on paper the Darkmoon Card edges out the Berserker's Call by a small amount, I feel the wasted time to stack of Crusade, as well as the ability to control your burst (IE, use it in a bloodlust/AW cycle and get more out of it) with Berzerker's call puts the [Berserker's Call] ahead. Again, this is not what the theorycraft will show you, but an opinion based on personal observations.
#2956SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cromfel
flyingtoaster I updated the op with the manaregen of 2.4

If anyone else has updates/changes/suggestions, please throw me a PM so I get email about it.

Im still so busy with IRL so its a tad hard to follow everything.
#2957SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Lyconn
Hey guys I'm kinda new to these forums and whatnot but I've gotten a lot of input, from reading ~95% of this thread, for my BE ret pally. Considering I only raid early content and never had access to armor pen. and haste gear it was never really a concern so i would just stack crit and AP. With the addition of 2.4 (and finally getting into ZA), however, I've started to gain access to that type of gear. I've been spending time tweeking gear sets around in bellator's spreadsheet and I just can't seem to find the right numbers I want to be sitting at when it comes to the new gear I'm going to have access to.

So basically what I'm asking is for input from those who have gotten access to higher amounts of haste and armor penetration gear. At what point with haste rating and armor pen. is it unreasonable to keep getting more and keep sacrificing crit. It seems to me with that gear you can still stay high in AP but you are giving up you're crit. I can be mistaken with that, if so correct me, it's just what I have noticed from plugging the numbers in with the gear I'll have access to come the release of the new badge gear.
#2958SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.0
Tekzor
I plan on using Shard and Zerker for almost every fight that requires movement. On a fight like Brut where you keep a full exorcism and consecrate cycle going for 6 minutes, you just can't beat DMCC.

Last edited by Tekzor : Today at 11:12 AM. Reason: misinformed
#2959SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
sag_ich_nicht
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Actually as a Human you will have a bit of extra expertise from the trinket but not enough to devalue it. I'm still going to be rocking a SoC as soon as possible.
You are wrong there, here is the proof:

http://loliserv.org/~afora/Paladin_D...4_ultimate.xls

As I said, with the best possible gear ingame and assuming blacksmithing(and possibly jewelcrafting in addition), DC:C+DST beat DC:C+SoC by a very small margin.

Last edited by sag_ich_nicht : 03/28/08 at 9:53 AM. Reason: Grammar fix
#2960SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Eradorn
Help from the other side

Ok guys, here's the deal. I am a tankadin. On the Tank forums we brought this up, but it was never really figured out, mostly since it is hard to test, and kind of an abnoxious situation all around, but I figure with your experience on the Ret side, you guys might be down with some more information.

When I am tanking in my 10 man (or 25 man for that matter) I am tank about 50% of the time, and then on single tank bosses, etc. I have to dps, because healing is a waste of time mostly. Originally, I was keeping spell gear and using SOR. Especially now that most of the sp dmg gear for plate is weak (from a dmg perspective) as it was all converted to ret stats, I have wondered if it is worth picking up SoCommand and using Ret gear when I have to DPS.

I have tried this to some degree, but thus far, it is hard to test, and my Ret set is a little weaker. Do you guys think I am right in thinking the mele stats are more prevalent and actually workable with just SoC or is that only really useful when coupled with all the other fun ret talents, meaning I should stick with somewhat paltry spell dmg.

Thanks for any help you can give.
#2961SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by sag_ich_nicht View Post
You are wrong there, here is the proof:

http://loliserv.org/~afora/Paladin_D...4_ultimate.xls

As I said, with the best possible gear ingame and assuming blacksmithing(and possibly jewelcrafting in addition), DC:C+DST beat DC:C+SoC by a very small margin.
I never said SoC was better than DST, I said that it is still a very excellent trinket despite the expertise racial. Please read my post before getting all huffy.

I personally still think 5 DPS isn't enough of a difference to validate DST over it though. Having 100% of your attacks land seems a lot nicer than a haste proc.

Besides, farming heroic MT is easy. Farming Gruul for more than a year for one bloody trinket is making me want to kill myself.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/28/08 at 12:58 PM.
#2962SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Azu
Originally Posted by Tekzor View Post
I told myself I'd never switch to executioner over goose. After fighting Brutallus on live for several hours; however, I'm not sure I'll switch back. I timed most of my cooldowns to coincide with executioner procs and it really made a noticeable difference on that extremely high armor fight.

I plan on using Shard and Zerker for almost every fight that requires movement. On a fight like Brut where you keep a full exorcism and consecrate cycle going for 6 minutes, you just can't beat DMCC.
Thanks for the great information. I've been using Savagery for the longest time simply because I never had the money to change to Mongoose. We're working on Brutallus now and have really been trying to figure out what to tweak to optimize my DPS; Executioner would fit perfectly. I was thinking about switching the Darkmoon Card: Crusade in favor of the Shard of Contempt but I'll take your advice for this fight and stick with what I have.
#2963SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Keanu
So since 2.4 hit, I've been having threat problems. It looks like the new omen has been showing higher tps/threat for everyone then the old one did, but at the same time I seem to be gettin threat cap'd a lot faster and easier. This isn't a "lol your MT's threat sucks" issue, and I wait for him to build quite a bit of threat before I start.

I have only raided 3 nights since 2.4 hit so maybe there's not enough fights to accurately tell if my threat is messed up now, but from the full bt/hyjal clear and some attempts on kalecgos I've had more threat problems then I've had previously.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has been having threat issues, or if I'm all alone here. Thanks.
#2964SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0noth
I was threat-capped all night last night, which isn't usually the case... part of it was our tank was in some weird set of gear or some such, but I really do feel more threatful since the patch landed as well. :/
#2965SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Azu
Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
I'm just wondering if anyone else has been having threat issues, or if I'm all alone here. Thanks.
Yesterday during Brutallus attempts, I somehow managed to pull aggro. I've *NEVER* pulled aggro on any fight before (except maybe Gurtogg, of course) even when going all out. You're definitely not alone here. I still don't know what went wrong and it's been bothering me since I messed up our best attempt of the night.
#2966SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Vada
Is there something strange with aggro now?

I was reduced to autoswinging on Teron last night because my threat was sky high.
#2967SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Alborak
Originally Posted by Vada View Post
Is there something strange with aggro now?

I was reduced to autoswinging on Teron last night because my threat was sky high.
I noticed something similar on Tuesday. I'm more inclined to believe it is an issue with threat meters seeing as my guild has found numerous issues with both KTM and Omen since patch. My threat output seemed to be consistent with what it is with only Fanaticism or Salvation (Had both), so my guess would be that the new meters are failing to count fanaticism properly.

I only pulled aggro once during the night, and that was after an AE pack on the way to supremus, where i forgot to turn off RF after tanking. But there was a noticeable difference in threat on meters. Once more stable versions of these mods are released there may be some testing to do.
#2968SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0noth
It's definitely something to keep an eye on, in any case. I was thinking along the same lines, that either Omen wasn't taking Fanaticism into account, or the talent itself was busted.
#2969SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0makotospeaks
quick question that i just never considered,

someone asked me if it only takes a single paladin beating on a boss to reup any and all judgments on the mob. At first i said no pretty sure i can only refresh my own judgement but tbh iv never read about anywhere.

so to sum up, 3 pallys in raid, 1 ret, 2 holy......ret puts up Crusade, holy 1 puts up Light, and holy 2 puts up Wis. The 2 Holy's then back off and resume healing, never again beating on the mob. Will all 3 judgements persist on the boss because the Ret continues to beat on him?

peace
#2970SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
noth
Crusader Strike - Spells - World of Warcraft

"An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage and refreshes all Judgements on the target."

That's the trick. When we, as ret palis, use Crusader Strike, we refresh all the judgements. That inclues the wisdom and light that the holy pali's kindly judged for us. Now, if we miss a few CS's in a row, the judgement may expire and the holy pali may need to put it back up, but for any fight where we can stand & beat, then yes, we can keep all 3 up.

Last edited by noth : 03/28/08 at 7:13 PM. Reason: punctuation is handy
#2971SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ertai
Hey guys,

I'm currently in the process of trying to find some future good gear as my guild is progressing through sunwell. As pretty much everyone knows, almost every item has +haste on it which keeps me worried a bit. If i were to blindly pick the "best" gear according to charts, i'd end up with a lot of haste rating which would be bad for SoC as far as i understood it.

My question is, is there a "max" haste rating that we alliance paladins should work towards? Or is it not such a big deal as i think its gonna be?

All the BE's are drooling over the haste stuff but for alliance it would mean a decrease(?) in SoC DPS so i'm wondering how big of an actual upgrade some items may be. Unless Blizzard magically gives alliance SoB pretty fast (which might happen, but not anytime soon) the Sunwell itemization looks pretty crap to me with weapons as fast as 3.50 speed, not taking haste into account.
#2972SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0noth
So, here's the thing. SoC's proc rate is determined using the current weapon speed. No matter what speed weapon you're using, you're going to get (on average, over a large sample), 7 procs per minute. Haste doesn't actually hurt your SoC damage, so much as it just doesn't increase it, like it does SoB damage.

As far as i know, there's no magic haste number that we want, you'll need to compare pieces individually. Keep in mind that some items, the badge axe comes to mind, aren't particularly itemized for us, but because their iLevel is so much higher, they're still an upgrade.

In general the new items are somewhat lack-luster, but the weapon and maybe the legs might be attractive to you. I'd toss your gear into Bellator's spreadsheet & hit the button on the 2nd sheet to see DPS differences per item. That can help put things into perspective.
#2973SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Pazgaz
It does not mean a decrease in SoC dps. You'll still get the same number of PPM.
#2974SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ertai
Thnx for the advice.

I've been using the Rawr.Retribution program a lot and i've been checking out maxDPS for some comparable results. Both the program and the site ranked the new lightbringer pieces as being the pure top, but all those pieces had haste so it kinda got me worried about the usefulness for alliance.

Guess i can stop worrying about it, thnx
#2975SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Dreco
Ret in need of help

Hello im trying to figure out what i am doing wrong with my dps....seems i cant get it up to 1k dps in boss fights. My rotation is as follows judge socrusader...socommand then judge that.. crusader strike and redo w/o judge of crusader. Im pretty much at a lose. Here my gear if this helps with advice http://http://www.wowarmory.com/char...stwolf&n=Dreco I have also been told that maxdps isnt that accurate for dps/gear wise but im not sure if that true? Pretty much in a nutshell i have been given a shot to be ret and not meeting up to expectations. Someone must be a yodi at Ret that could help me....i am raiding BT/MH sometimes with wf or not so i know that comes into play as well but any advice would be great
#2976SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0noth
Erta�* : The new Lightbringer pieces are highly ranked because of the expertise on them, more than the haste, but yeah, I wouldn't worry.

Dreco : check out the DPS rotations on the first post of the first page. One thing that screams out is that you've badly gemmed some of your items... You should gem for strength, never attack power. You need new gems in your shoulders, your wrists, and your pants. Also, you should seriously consider re-enchanting your weapon to Mongoose.

As far as DPS rotations go, You can't really write out a list. it's more of a series of questions.

1 - Is Judgement of the crusader on the mob? if not, put it there
2 - Is the cooldown on Crusader strike up? if so, hit it
3 - is judgement up, *and* will re-sealing after judging not delay my next Crusader strike? if so, judge and reseal
4 - is the mob undead? excorcism!
5 - can I do none of the above? Rank 1 Consecrate.

You want to CS when it's up EVERY time it's up. Once every 6 seconds like clockwork. You will have to drink mana pots sometimes to keep this up for long amounts of time. That's okay.

Something that can help this is to make a really simple macro:

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command

and put that where your judgement key is. You hit it once when your not in the middle of a global cooldown and it will judge and re-seal for you.
#2977SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Valerys
Feeling really lucky right now. Got [Shard of Contempt] on my very first heroic Terrace run, and the MS warrior kindly passed for me.
#2978SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Alborak
Originally Posted by noth View Post
It's definitely something to keep an eye on, in any case. I was thinking along the same lines, that either Omen wasn't taking Fanaticism into account, or the talent itself was busted.
If my understanding of the way omen & ktm work, is that it works off of known values for threat. So if Fanaticism broke, Your threat would appear to be the same on omen, but would in actuality be quite higher. Meaning you would pull aggro before omen indicated you should. This wasn't the case for myself, but more evidence could be helpful.
#2979SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
Originally Posted by Tekzor View Post
I told myself I'd never switch to executioner over goose. After fighting Brutallus on live for several hours; however, I'm not sure I'll switch back. I timed most of my cooldowns to coincide with executioner procs and it really made a noticeable difference on that extremely high armor fight.

I plan on using Shard and Zerker for almost every fight that requires movement. On a fight like Brut where you keep a full exorcism and consecrate cycle going for 6 minutes, you just can't beat DMCC.
Thanks for the great information. I've been using Savagery for the longest time simply because I never had the money to change to Mongoose. We're working on Brutallus now and have really been trying to figure out what to tweak to optimize my DPS; Executioner would fit perfectly. I was thinking about switching the Darkmoon Card: Crusade in favor of the Shard of Contempt but I'll take your advice for this fight and stick with what I have.

I'm surprised no one has caught this:

The increased armor on Brutallus should actually make Executioner (and armor pen gear in general) worth LESS, not more, since armor penetration improves in worth the less armor the boss has (while not going to 0 obviously).

This would mean out of all bosses, Brutallus is actually the least boss you'd want to have Executioner on instead of Mongoose.

In general: Mongoose is overall a much better one size fits all enchant, especially on high armor targets or if you're missing Sunder/CoR/FF or don't have much armor pen in your own gear.

Personally I fail to see why people ever advocate using executioner, unless your gear is 100% geared towards armor pen. on every single item (which would be gimp) AND you are using all possible armor pen. raid debuffs like Sunder, CoR, FF (which you should regardless) AND the boss doesn't have exceptionally high armor (like Brutallus).

And even then, it's arguable at best if executioner pulls ahead of Mongoose or is equal, in all other cases Mongoose is superior.




Please don't give out false info like this, at the very least, check spreadsheets/rawr and try putting in a higher armor value (Brutallus = 8800 armor), before you claim something.

I know it probably sounds logical "boss has high armor, so armor pen should be good!", but unfortunately this is exactly OPPOSITE of what's true.

Last edited by Avitus : 03/29/08 at 1:30 AM.
#2980SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Avitus
As a general rule of thumb:

If low level (Kara/T4) gear: Use Savagery At that itemlevel you want all the AP you can get, you'll also probably be running a lot of 5/10 mans with few raid buffs, making the cheap Savagery enchant the best overall investment.

If T5+ level gear: Use Mongoose
Info: Did you know that paladins actually gain more crit per point of agi than warriors at level 70? 1% crit = 25 agi (paladin) or 33 agi (warrior) => Mongoose proc with BoK gives Paladins 5.28% crit while up, Warriors only 4% crit. Both also gain +2% melee haste when procced.

And when to use Executioner?
I don't see a point where you ever should (unless "ooh it's new and looks pretty" is what you base your gear choices/enchants on). Again, the benefits are only in very exceptional cases (read above) and even then, they are so minute they are negligible at best. In all other cases it's a (small to medium) loss vs Mongoose.

Don't be fooled by warrior math or what you hear from warriors. Executioner effects only <70% of our damage (vs. 100% of theirs) since it doesn't increase holy damage, as well as Mongoose being 132% as effective for us than for warriors (due to the higher crit gain from agi).


Why the fuss? It's not the first time I read this being thrown around... I've even seen "guides" that list executioner as a preferred paladin enchant and every time I have to shake my head at this misinformation. (i.e. RETLOL - The Guide Generally a nice effort for beginners, but damn you should really research some of your info).

Last edited by Avitus : 03/29/08 at 1:38 AM.
#2981SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ragnor
While I agree in general Mongoose is better you're choosing to ignore some facts yourself.

When to use Executioner is: Alliance Hyjal/BT when you have over 350 AC penetration

#1: Using Soc
#2: Boss AC: 6400 (typical for BT) w/ Sunder x5, CoR and Faire Fire
#3: Over 350 AC penetration from gear (quite easy with gurtogg legs alone, nevermind cata edge and illidan ring)

At this point the boss only has 1700 AC left and Executioner is ~1 dps better than Mongoose.

Take Cata Edge, Stormrage Signet and Divine Retribution + Sunderx5, CoR, Faire Fire and a 6400 AC boss only had 1300 AC left and Executioner is ~3dps better than mongoose.

However since we're talking about Brutallus, yes mongoose is better. Executioner is worse and Tekzor doesn't understand the mechanics properly.
#2982SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Look at it this way though.

Using only a [Crown of Anasterian] puts you at the breakpoint for Executioner vs. Mongoose on low armor bosses (who, unless I'm mistaken, are still the bulk of SWP encounters). Throw in a [Hard Khorium Battleplate] and maybe the odd [Stormrage Signet Ring] (for the hit rating) or [Band of Ruinous Delight] and you're again looking at Executioner giving a higher theoretical DPS on most bosses.

It is important to remember that we're talking about very small DPS gains in most situations. If you absolutely must have every point of DPS possible then yes, there will be one enchant that is "better". But in all reality its a very negligible difference and there isn't a real "right" answer.
#2983SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
low armor bosses (who, unless I'm mistaken, are still the bulk of SWP encounters).
Brutallus is 8800, and is -the- dps check in the instance. The DPS requirements on Kalecgos and Felmyst are pretty ordinary. (I dont know about the rest of the bosses)
#2984SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Brutallus is 8800, and is -the- dps check in the instance. The DPS requirements on Kalecgos and Felmyst are pretty ordinary. (I dont know about the rest of the bosses)
Even so, because Executioner is not as good on one fight does not make it a bad enchant.

Looking at the difference between a low armor boss (6400) and a high armor boss (8800) with the usual debuffs (Sunder x5, FF, CoR) with Executioner up (and no additional armor penetration, which is pretty unrealistic, but I digress) you're looking at the following mitigation.

Low armor:
Boss armor after debuffs: 2390 (18.46%)
Boss armor with Executioner: 1550 (12.80%)
High Armor:
Boss armor after debuffs: 4790 (31.21%)
Boss armor with Executioner: 3950 (27.23%)
So yes, against a high armor target Executioner is a great deal less effective. Does that make the enchant worthless? No.

Since I'm not sure of the exact math for it I won't attempt any, but all the crits you get from your Mongoose proc will also be quite a deal smaller.

I'll give it to Mongoose on Brutal though (extra crit for SoC is always nice on high armor mobs). It is worth mentioning though that if a majority of the other bosses in Sunwell are low armor (which I'm pretty sure they are) Executioner does come out better because you will be wearing armor penetration gear (Crown alone puts you at the breakpoint).
#2985SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
While I agree in general Mongoose is better you're choosing to ignore some facts yourself.

...

Take Cata Edge, Stormrage Signet and Divine Retribution + Sunderx5, CoR, Faire Fire and a 6400 AC boss only had 1300 AC left and Executioner is ~3dps better than mongoose.
Please don't tell me I'm ignoring facts, I wouldn't put so much emphasis on something I'm not sure about.

A ~3 dps upgrade under optimal conditions on exceptionally low armor bosses is what I call "minute [differences which is] negligible at best".

Read what I wrote:

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
And when to use Executioner? ... the benefits are only in very exceptional cases and even then, they are so minute they are negligible at best. In all other cases it's a (small to medium) loss vs Mongoose.
I stand by what I said.


Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
#2: Boss AC: 6400 (typical for BT) w/ Sunder x5, CoR and Faire Fire
I wonder where you got that number from.

From the [RAID] Boss armor values thread here on the forum:

Originally Posted by Dayve View Post
Black Temple:
High Warlord Naj'entus: 7700
Supremus: 7700
Shade of Akama: 7700
Teron Gorefiend: 6200
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 7700
Reliquary of Souls:
- Essence of Suffering: 0
- Essence of Desire: 7700
- Essence of Anger: 7700
Mother Shahraz: 6200
Illidari Council:
- Gathios the Shatterer: 6200
Illidan Stormrage: 7700
6/9 bosses have 7700 armor value where Excecutioner loses. 3/9 bosses you gain a 3 dps "increase" if you can call it that.


Now lets see, doing less damage on 6/9 bosses in BT and a lot less damage on "the" DPS fight of Sunwell (Brutallus), with unknown armor values of the other bosses of Sunwell vs. doing ~3dps more on 3/9 bosses in BT.

To be completely blunt about it, I have a hard time keeping a straight face when you tell me I'm ignoring facts because there's a "3 dps increase" on some bosses. Discussing such irrelevant things is the reason why public wow forums are shunned: It's a waste of time, "hah I figured out how Executioner can do 3dps more!".

Also keep in mind, if CoR/FF ever drops off (which happens occasionally), there goes your "3dps increase on a few isolated bosses".



Sorry, unless empirical proof of something actually tangible besides a "3dps increase" can be demonstrated, I stand by what I said. Lets please not nitpick?

Last edited by Avitus : 03/29/08 at 5:57 AM.
#2986SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Since I'm not sure of the exact math for it I won't attempt any, but all the crits you get from your Mongoose proc will also be quite a deal smaller.
Not all your crits. Remember the key factor here is that Executioner only affects your non holy damage. You gain nothing on SoC or JoC which is generally ~30%+ of your damage. This is significant enough to push the worth of Executioner down for paladins.


I'm all for it if someone has any tangible proof of Executioner making a "real world difference" (read: Not ~3dps) where you'd "maybe" consider enchanting an extra weapon with Executioner to gain said benefit.

But until then, there is only a loss overall if you enchant your main raiding weapon with Executioner.

Last edited by Avitus : 03/29/08 at 7:06 AM.
#2987SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Ragnor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The difference is negligible so use Mongoose
In Rawr with an "ideal" plate only SoC setup with a few pieces of -AC penetration, which typically are some of the best or near best in the slot (eg: Signet Ring, Hard Khorium Battleplate, Crown of Anasterian, Band of Ruinous Delight), I'm seeing:

8800 AC: 3dps in favor of mongoose
6200 AC: 3dps in favour of executioner

The first and 3rd boss in sunwell don't appear to have have 8800 AC as far as I'm aware, so the difference is still negligible imo.

At the end of the day 3dps either way isn't a heck of alot.

Last edited by Ragnor : 03/29/08 at 11:54 AM.
#2988SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'm all for it if someone has any tangible proof of Executioner making a "real world difference" (read: Not ~3dps) where you'd "maybe" consider enchanting an extra weapon with Executioner to gain said benefit.

But until then, there is only a loss overall if you enchant your main raiding weapon with Executioner.
You're still ignoring the fact that Mongoose is still a very small increase over Executioner in those other situations. The differences between the two are very small, which is why I still say there is no "right" answer.

As was said, a lot of BiS gear does have some armor penetration on them, so Executioner will be coming out on top eventually on every fight except Brut in raw theorycraft, but again those numbers are so small it doesn't really matter unless you absolutely need every single point of DPS.
#2989SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Avitus
The 3dps here or there is only valid if you're wearing a lot of arm pen gear to begin with.

It also "requires" full raid debuffs (which is fine), but assumes that they will never drop off (which is not so correct with FF/CoR in practice, it happens).

Furthermore on any fight that has multiple mobs (for example Muru), you're guaranteed not to have all debuffs, which further reduces the worth of Executioner whenever you're attacking them.


Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
You're still ignoring the fact that Mongoose is still a very small increase over Executioner in those other situations. The differences between the two are very small, which is why I still say there is no "right" answer.
There "is" a right answer, it's Mongoose. Whether mobs are debuffed correctly, have high or low armor, it's going to give you very good results.

Executioner will "only" work under optimal conditions, with correct debuffs that never drop on a few bosses (look at the BT example), and even then it barely breaks even with Mongoose (+/- 3dps). Let alone PvP/grinding/10 man when mobs don't have much debuffs and in the case of PVP can have up to 12k armor.


I really don't understand why people would rather argue the exception than stick with the rule.

Anyway, not posting anymore about this issue unless something significant crops up, it's been discussed enough with pretty clear results imo.
#2990SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The 3dps here or there is only valid if you're wearing a lot of arm pen gear to begin with.
Its not though. Its only wearing gear that is already best in slot regardless of the Armor Penetration.

You will be wearing passive armor penetration in SWP gear. [Crown of Anasterian] has armor penetration. [Band of Ruinous Delight] has armor penetration. [Hard Khorium Battleplate] has armor penetration. The days of having to use sub-optimal badge gear to get armor penetration are gone. Our best gear has the stat on it, so you will be having it.
#2991SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Gaffadin
Both Executioner and Mongoose are excellent enchants and there is only a very small difference between them.

Which comes out on top depends on (as has been stated) boss debuffs and your current gear.

Arguing over something which is such a tiny DPS difference either way is a little silly, and at the end of the day will mostly boil down to personal choice.

I myself favour Executioner simply because Alliance is already proc-based with Command and I don't want to add another chance on hit to give me a higher chance to get a critical strike, whereas Executioner once procd will increase the damage of every white and CS hit regardless of whether it is a crit or not.

As I said, mostly personal choice.

Plus Executioner looks much better and we all know that's the most important factor :p

On another note: is it possible to get any Rawr numbers on the Blackened Naaru Sliver? It isn't on any DB sites yet so can't link it, but the stats were meant to be:

Equip: Improves haste rating by 54
Equip: Chance on hit to enter a Battle Trance, during which your melee or ranged attacks will each grant 44 attack power, stacking up to 10 times. Expires after 20 seconds.

Just wondering how this trinket would stack up against DC:C, Beserker's Call, Shard of Contempt, etc.

Last edited by Gaffadin : 03/29/08 at 5:48 PM.
#2992SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Zurm
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
You will be wearing passive armor penetration in SWP gear.
I'm not going to directly disagree with you, but keep in mind the Elven half of this thread will be wearing different gear, as the [Crown of Anasterian] is not better than [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] for us. Most of us will be replacing ArP with Haste. Our second best weapon is [Shivering Felspine], yours is the [Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword] (and equivalents) again simply because of relative importance.

I'm starting to think that the differences are growing, and I shudder at the thought of separate threads cause I'll miss Avitus and Toastr too much
#2993SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Playlogic
anyone seen the Leather leggings from 2.4 badge rewards? i think they might be better then leggings of divine retribution.

Can anyone confirm that?

gn
#2994SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ragnor
There are a significant number of leather pieces that are marginally better, your best bet is to theorycraft your current gear in Rawr or the 2.4 dps spreadsheet and use the item upgrade analysis in both.

I prefer to only wear plate for the RP and look factor, unless the difference is really huge.
#2995SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Avitus
With great effort I'll stop talking about Mongoose vs. Executioner, though I'm pretty sure which is the better general case and which is just a waste of time *cough* :P

Anyway on to something else, I've had a pretty cool find:

With the removal of spelldamage from our sets, I've been testing [Fel Mana Potion] today.

With ~0 spelldamage, once you use it, your spelldamage goes into negative values on the character sheet.

However, your damage does not seem to be affected at all.

I've tested it by trying consecration, with 0 spelldamage, -25, -50 spelldamage it still does the same amount.


Even better, JotC is also unaffected since it's a debuff and not a buff. You can have -50 spelldamage on your character sheet + JotC on the mob and you're consecration will still be doing the same amount of damage it did with 0 spelldamage + JotC.


Basically it seems that you can now use [Fel Mana Potion] non stop with no negative effect on the damage you're doing (as long as you have 0 spelldamage from gear). Raid buffed you'll lose a neglible ~17 spelldamage from imp Divine Spirit.

Which means that you can now get 3200 mana guaranteed every 2 mins, instead of an average ~2400 mana every 2 mins from super mana pots. Or even 4480 mana every 2 mins if you use an Alchemist's Stone.


I know I'll be making use of this, WTB Fel Mana Potion Injectors!
#2996SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Ragnor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
With great effort I'll stop talking about Mongoose vs. Executioner, though I'm pretty sure which is the better general case and which is just a waste of time *cough* :P
Look here is an ideal plate only set for an Engineer imo, only 1 single piece of AC penetration gear is in this set (Band of Ruinous Delight)

Mayhem Projection Goggles, Choker of Endless Nightmares, Pauldrons of Berserking, Warharness of Reckless Fury, Lightbringer Girdle, Felfury Legplates, Lightbringer Boots, Lightbringer Bands, Hard Khorium Battlefists, Hard Khorium, Band of Ruinous Delight, Shard of Contempt, Darkmoon Card: Crusade, Cloak of Fiends, Apolyon, the Soul-render, Libram of Avengement

Buffs: fort, motw, imp GoA totem twisted with imp wf, str of earth, imp battleshout, imp bom, bok, unleashed rage, ai, relentless flask, 20 str scroll, 20 str food

Debuffs: faerie fire (non imp), sunder ac x5, cor, imp hunter mark, imp jotc, misery, jow, blood frenzy

Temp Buffs: Bloodlust


Last edited by Ragnor : 03/30/08 at 3:01 AM.
#2997SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Ragnor
Here's basically the same set but for a blacksmith instead of an engineer (changes are in bold):

Crown of Anasterian, Choker of Endless Nightmares, Pauldrons of Berserking, Hard Khorium Battleplate, Lightbringer Girdle, Felfury Legplates, Lightbringer Boots, Lightbringer Bands, Hard Khorium Battlefists, Hard Khorium, Band of Ruinous Delight, Shard of Contempt, Darkmoon Card: Crusade, Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, Apolyon, the Soul-render, Libram of Avengement

Note: 1 hit gem must be socketed for hit capped unless you get 0.5% hit from somewhere (draenai, doomkin).


Last edited by Ragnor : 03/30/08 at 3:08 AM.
#2998SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0DarKNecross
Avitus, if you're going to be overly nit-picky about Executioner, I'm going to throw the "Mongoose is a chance to proc' a chance to Crit" card. Executioner is guaranteed damage the entire duration of the proc', and with Mongoose you still have the chance not to get the DPS increase that's theorycrafted. You can't argue that Crit may be spikey, but balances out over time, because on a 6 minute boss you don't have time for the probability to smooth out. I've seen WWS's where I had 3 Mongoose procs the entire fight and my crit-rate was under 35%.

But, using one enchant over the other isn't going to cause you to wipe on bosses, and it's not a significant enough DPS difference to spend an entire page arguing over.
#2999SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ragnor
Quite right Sigurd.. Avitus I'm just asking you please don't attack broad sweeping generalized advice with broad sweeping generalized advice.

For the record I have mongoose on my torch and executioner on my cata edge

On a side note I've been playing with Rawr for several weeks and it's awesome, hopefully 13.x comes out soon with the ret module official released.
#3000SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Anarkii
While Rawr b13 will include Ret and it'll be the first 'public release' of the Ret module, the ret module itself will only contain minor changes from the version I had posted earlier in the thread. I'm fairly satisfied with the accuracy of the model and the changes will generally be for usability. But the major change in b13 which everyone here will love is the gear optimizer.

Right now, you have a set of gear, and with THAT set of gear, you see a comparison list for a particular slot. With the optimizer you'll be able to find the best combination of gear overall. That'll include consideration for being hit capped, you'll see the effects of stacking armor penetration etc. So its a shift from 'best-in-slot' items with a particular gear set up to the best gear setup taking into account all mechanics.
#3001SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0flyingtoastr
Also taking a break from the Executioner argument, I'm really hoping a workable mac version of Rawr comes out soon so I can mess around with it too. I look forward to seeing it in action.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Basically it seems that you can now use [Fel Mana Potion] non stop with no negative effect on the damage you're doing (as long as you have 0 spelldamage from gear). Raid buffed you'll lose a neglible ~17 spelldamage from imp Divine Spirit.

Which means that you can now get 3200 mana guaranteed every 2 mins, instead of an average ~2400 mana every 2 mins from super mana pots. Or even 4480 mana every 2 mins if you use an Alchemist's Stone.

I know I'll be making use of this, WTB Fel Mana Potion Injectors!
Mmmm a reason to finally farm out that pattern on my alchemist. Thanks for the info.

EDIT: Happy 3000th post.
#3002SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Avitus
I already said I'm not getting involved with this anymore, but multiple posts require an answer I guess, though I would prefer to end this back and forth soon, it's really just starting to become a derail where all parties involved understand the mechanics but insist on nitpicking a number up and down.

I think some of what I said was misunderstood, I'm talking about the "big picture".

My point is that Mongoose is across the board the best enchant you can get if you have no arm pen at all on your gear, or if you have some arm pen, but the boss is very high armor or if the mobs are not debuffed fully or debuffs drop off.

Executioner is only good "if and only if" 3 things are valid (a lot of arm pen gear, low armor boss, all debuffs used) and when it is good, there's very negligible difference.


And here comes the part which I don't understand: Why would you enchant your weapon for that very specific case for a very minor difference instead of just sticking with one that works under all conditions?


Yes, if you have a lot of armor pen then it becomes less of an argument (since differences to both sides are minimal), but so frequently I see people on this forum come asking "hi guys I'm raiding Kara, SSC" and people tell them Executioner and Mongoose are more or less the same.

This is simply not true, people at that content level have no armor pen at all, very frequently don't have all necessary debuffs for Executioner to compete with Mongoose. So why give that advice?

I've been farming Illidan for over 5 months and my gear has 0 armor pen, assuming I didn't know how things work and I read this forum and people say "hey Executioner is just as good as Mongoose", don't you believe that blanket stating something like that is just plain bad advice?

And as illustrated before with BT, 6/9 bosses are 7700 armor, so the majority of the bosses Executioner loses out.


Last but not least, in new content, the very defining fight where your DPS is going to matter more than any fight, Mongoose is the way to go, so why would you enchant for the other encounters where it matters less?


Please understand what I'm saying here, as general advice, Mongoose is the way to go. Executioner only comes into play in very specific scenarios and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt when that advice is given (Read: A lot of conditions have to be met and even then the difference is minimal, so why bother?).

Last edited by Avitus : 03/30/08 at 5:44 AM.
#3003SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Avitus
Sigurd please don't drop this to the level of discussing probability. You know your "argument" can go both ways, you can crit a lot or crit few times. You can proc this a lot or not. The Haste from Mongoose is also a static buff that does not depend on a second chance.

Going to that level of discussion would be really futile so lets not.

Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Quite right Sigurd.. Avitus I'm just asking you please don't attack broad sweeping generalized advice with broad sweeping generalized advice.

For the record I have mongoose on my torch and executioner on my cata edge
It is generalized advice because the "general case scenario" is in favor of Mongoose.

I have a Cat edge banked just in case we do get SoB at some point, but I'd never switch out my Torch for it while I have only SoC atm.



If I was to sum up all I'm trying to say:

-You can't go wrong with Mongoose, regardless of gear, debuffs, boss armor. This is the general case.

-On the other hand, Executioner "can" be a waste and requires very specific conditions to match Mongoose (or exceed by very little). These conditions are not all in your hand (debuffs WILL drop off, different bosses have different armor values). And in the case where it is very slightly better it's a negligible increase. So why not stick with Mongoose?

And when giving advice to people, why would you recommend both? What if that person is using 0 arm pen (many do atm), is fighting bosses in ZA with only few debuffs in a 10 man (no FF, no CoR for example), is Mongoose == Executioner still valid then? No.

Last edited by Avitus : 03/30/08 at 5:53 AM.
#3004SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0CHaoTiCTeX
so, im new to the site and had a quick question on rawr, specifically for retadins.

i noticed in the above screenie that it was the beta 12.1 but with the ret module.

i dl rawr, but there is no ret module so far as i can tell, any advice on this?

sorry to detract from thread there.

although, i wish i had read this sooner as i just got executioner on my new sword, based on a friends advice...time to farm shards :S
#3005SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by CHaoTiCTeX View Post
although, i wish i had read this sooner as i just got executioner on my new sword, based on a friends advice...time to farm shards :S
Thanks. This perfectly illustrates what I'm trying to point out.

What sort of gear do you have and what content do you raid if I may ask?


Originally Posted by CHaoTiCTeX View Post
so, im new to the site and had a quick question on rawr, specifically for retadins.

i noticed in the above screenie that it was the beta 12.1 but with the ret module.

i dl rawr, but there is no ret module so far as i can tell, any advice on this?
http://elitistjerks.com/669499-post2739.html
#3006SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0CHaoTiCTeX
well, im a "casual" raider so ssc and tk, with a grand total of 304 armor pen on my gear

and thanks for the link
#3007SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Zurm
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
You can't argue that Crit may be spikey, but balances out over time, because on a 6 minute boss you don't have time for the probability to smooth out. I've seen WWS's where I had 3 Mongoose procs the entire fight and my crit-rate was under 35%.
For blood elves, the 3% haste is as much or more of an increase than the crit... I know you're talking about alliance but I just wanted to make that clarification.
#3008SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
flyingtoastr
Just wanted to confirm that there is a problem with Omen, not our threat. I was at 180% a few times during our BT run according to Omen and the tank maintained aggro with ease. I'm going to guess it has something to do with not applying Fanaticism correctly.

EDIT: The latest revision (r67186) seems to have fixed the problem.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/30/08 at 10:04 PM.
#3009SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Lebobiscoming
What are the thoughts on these new haste gems?
#3010SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Lebobiscoming View Post
What are the thoughts on these new haste gems?
I don't remember any melee haste gems being out. The spell haste gems are obviously trash.
#3011SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just wanted to confirm that there is a problem with Omen, not our threat. I was at 180% a few times during our BT run according to Omen and the tank maintained aggro with ease. I'm going to guess it has something to do with not applying Fanaticism correctly.

EDIT: The latest revision (r67186) seems to have fixed the problem.

One thing to note is, make sure everyone in your guild updates. There's been a recent version that is not backwards compatible anymore, so if some have old versions they'll not show up.


Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Basically it seems that you can now use [Fel Mana Potion] non stop with no negative effect on the damage you're doing (as long as you have 0 spelldamage from gear). Raid buffed you'll lose a neglible ~17 spelldamage from imp Divine Spirit.

Which means that you can now get 3200 mana guaranteed every 2 mins, instead of an average ~2400 mana every 2 mins from super mana pots. Or even 4480 mana every 2 mins if you use an Alchemist's Stone.


I know I'll be making use of this, WTB Fel Mana Potion Injectors!
Mmmm a reason to finally farm out that pattern on my alchemist. Thanks for the info.

Been rocking Fel Mana Pots on Brutallus and damn it's a sweet mana boost.

Better yet, if you want to go all out, you can take them much earlier than normal mana pots (as soon as you hit -1000ish mana) since they regen mana in ticks over time rather than a full amount instantly.
#3012SourcePosted on <=2.0.0ariesz
What kind of DPS numbers are you pally's seeing on brutallus. Im just interested in comparing my own to some of yours to see if I am on the right track.
#3013SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Wow Web Stats is a good place to start - most of the guilds in that list include a Ret Paladin.
#3014SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petru
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just wanted to confirm that there is a problem with Omen, not our threat. I was at 180% a few times during our BT run according to Omen and the tank maintained aggro with ease. I'm going to guess it has something to do with not applying Fanaticism correctly.

EDIT: The latest revision (r67186) seems to have fixed the problem.
That's a relief. I spent half my last run having to stand back for fear of pulling aggro Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to WAU I go.

On another note, Zurm, how's that Felspine working out for you? Had my eye on one since I heard it got moved to trash, but our raid leaders not letting us go there yet
#3015SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Strifen
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
What kind of DPS numbers are you pally's seeing on brutallus. Im just interested in comparing my own to some of yours to see if I am on the right track.
Out of all the attempts we did last night (no kill sadly) I was looking at 1750-1850 depending on wf/crit % for that attempt. Group was enhancement shaman, ms war, rogue, rogue. Had a survival hunter in raid. If we keep the tanks alive for 6 minutes we win
#3016SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
What kind of DPS numbers are you pally's seeing on brutallus. Im just interested in comparing my own to some of yours to see if I am on the right track.
1500-1550

To push it over 1600, you need an enhancement shaman (I only had resto), to push it over 1700+ you need Seal of Blood, to push it even higher you need a survival hunter
#3017SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kadrok
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
What kind of DPS numbers are you pally's seeing on brutallus. Im just interested in comparing my own to some of yours to see if I am on the right track.
I did 1751 DPS while in the melee group for our kill, with numerous holes in my Ret gear setup.
#3018SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tetsusaiga
Hi guys,
I've been holy since way before BC but now in sunwell and since i have the best gear the guild would like me to maybe spec ret especially for fights like Brutallus. I was just curious what yall thought of my gear and if there was anything that stood out as needing to be replaced.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Second i have a question about dps rotations. Ive looked at some spreadsheets but haven't found the perfect rotation. Should I judge/reseal then cs and repeat that forever or cs and judge reseal if cs isn't up since cs will come up sooner with its 6 second cd? I would just like some input on high dps rotations and anything else yall think I can do to increase it.
#3019SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Sorry if this sounds obvious but since you asked, replace hourglass with shard of contempt as the main priority. You can replace your neck and ancestral ring of conquest easy at your level with better items. 'Rotations' are pretty simple. CS every cooldown and judge/reseal at any time which ensures the CS won't be delayed. Use rest of your GCDs on exorcism and downranked consecration if you can afford it.
#3020SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Azu
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Out of all the attempts we did last night (no kill sadly) I was looking at 1750-1850 depending on wf/crit % for that attempt. Group was enhancement shaman, ms war, rogue, rogue. Had a survival hunter in raid. If we keep the tanks alive for 6 minutes we win
We're having the same problem but I can only get my personal DPS up to approximately 1450. I'm not sure if it's my rotation that's screwed up or that I don't have the right consumable usage, but it frustrates me that I can't get up to the levels that some of you are reaching (with a similar group composition/gear setup).

I just changed the enchant on my Torch of the Damned to Executioner to see if there will be an effect but haven't tested it yet.

I guess I'll wait for a response to Tetsusaiga's post and compare my rotation to yours.
#3021SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tetsusaiga
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Sorry if this sounds obvious but since you asked, replace hourglass with shard of contempt as the main priority. You can replace your neck and ancestral ring of conquest easy at your level with better items. 'Rotations' are pretty simple. CS every cooldown and judge/reseal at any time which ensures the CS won't be delayed. Use rest of your GCDs on exorcism and downranked consecration if you can afford it.

Why a downranked consecration and not a max rank?
#3022SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Iconoclast
Originally Posted by Tetsusaiga View Post
Hi guys,
I've been holy since way before BC but now in sunwell and since i have the best gear the guild would like me to maybe spec ret especially for fights like Brutallus. I was just curious what yall thought of my gear and if there was anything that stood out as needing to be replaced.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Second i have a question about dps rotations. Ive looked at some spreadsheets but haven't found the perfect rotation. Should I judge/reseal then cs and repeat that forever or cs and judge reseal if cs isn't up since cs will come up sooner with its 6 second cd? I would just like some input on high dps rotations and anything else yall think I can do to increase it.
I hate to be that guy but...

I think the tools for you to determine your own possible upgrades are easily available, and include searching this site as well as utilizing both maxDPS.com and Rawr (An app for figuring out your dps based off of gear).

Additionally your exact second question was answered maybe 2-3 pages back:

As far as DPS rotations go, You can't really write out a list. it's more of a series of questions.

1 - Is Judgement of the crusader on the mob? if not, put it there
2 - Is the cooldown on Crusader strike up? if so, hit it
3 - is judgement up, *and* will re-sealing after judging not delay my next Crusader strike? if so, judge and reseal
4 - is the mob undead? excorcism!
5 - can I do none of the above? Rank 1 Consecrate.

You want to CS when it's up EVERY time it's up. Once every 6 seconds like clockwork. You will have to drink mana pots sometimes to keep this up for long amounts of time. That's okay.

Something that can help this is to make a really simple macro:

/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command

and put that where your judgement key is. You hit it once when your not in the middle of a global cooldown and it will judge and re-seal for you.
#3023SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Strifen
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
We're having the same problem but I can only get my personal DPS up to approximately 1450. I'm not sure if it's my rotation that's screwed up or that I don't have the right consumable usage, but it frustrates me that I can't get up to the levels that some of you are reaching (with a similar group composition/gear setup).

I just changed the enchant on my Torch of the Damned to Executioner to see if there will be an effect but haven't tested it yet.

I guess I'll wait for a response to Tetsusaiga's post and compare my rotation to yours.
Well hold on, what's your group composition looking like ? Do you have a survival hunter ? Does your enhancement shaman twist totems ? Do you have blood frenzy war with solarian sapphire in raid ? Feral druid O/T to keep up FF ? How many leatherworkers are in your group ? Are you taking haste pots in conjunction with trinkets/AW ? Using CoR ?

There are a million things that will add up to you doing solid damage, and little of it you have an influence on, lots of it is up to the raid leader and just having the right people in your raid group. I don't know the answer to any of the questions above but checking yes to all of them will REALLY up your dps.
#3024SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Strifen
Originally Posted by Tetsusaiga View Post

Second i have a question about dps rotations. Ive looked at some spreadsheets but haven't found the perfect rotation. Should I judge/reseal then cs and repeat that forever or cs and judge reseal if cs isn't up since cs will come up sooner with its 6 second cd? I would just like some input on high dps rotations and anything else yall think I can do to increase it.
Honestly. You just need to spec ret, hit up the blasted land mobs and just have at it~ The best way to get a feel for a max dps rotation is just by practice. I personally don't feel that there's "One dps rotation to rule them all" You have to just play it by ear a lot of times and watch the timing on all your abilities closely. You eventually get into a really good groove. Just make sure to prioritize crusader strike, while weaving in the judgement of your seal, exorcism and consecration.
#3025SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Tetsusaiga View Post
Why a downranked consecration and not a max rank?
Spamming max rank consecration for 6 mins is kinda hard on mana.
#3026SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Azu
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Well hold on, what's your group composition looking like ? Do you have a survival hunter ? Does your enhancement shaman twist totems ? Do you have blood frenzy war with solarian sapphire in raid ? Feral druid O/T to keep up FF ? How many leatherworkers are in your group ? Are you taking haste pots in conjunction with trinkets/AW ? Using CoR ?

There are a million things that will add up to you doing solid damage, and little of it you have an influence on, lots of it is up to the raid leader and just having the right people in your raid group. I don't know the answer to any of the questions above but checking yes to all of them will REALLY up your dps.
Group Comp:
1 Ret Paladin
2 Rogues
1 Enhancement Shaman
1 MS Warrior

We have: CoR up, FF up, 4% Blood Frenzy, two rogues with Drums of Battle, and a Windfury Totem.
Don't have: MS War w/ Solarian trinket, Survival hunter, an Enhance Shaman that knows how to twist.
Have but haven't used: Haste Potions

I'm also using rank 1 consecration and exorcism so long that the GCD does not coincide with CS or JoB.

I generally pop AW near the beginning of the fight after full stacks of the Darkmoon Faire: Crusade are applied (without haste potions) just to get a small DPS boost since it'll be off cooldown for the last 20% when we bloodlust.

Edit:
As for key buffs, I have Kings, Salvation, Imp Might, Flask of Relentless Assault, and the strength food buff.
I'm still only pushing about 1450 dps maximum on Brutallus (formerly with Savagery on my weapon).

Last edited by Azu : Yesterday at 2:28 PM.
#3027SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noraj
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
Edit:
As for key buffs, I have Kings, Salvation, Imp Might, Flask of Relentless Assault, and the strength food buff.
I'm still only pushing about 1450 dps maximum on Brutallus (formerly with Savagery on my weapon).
Don't forget [Scroll of Strength V]. They're available relatively cheaply on most auction houses, and it's 48 attack power you wouldn't otherwise have.

Also, Brutallus is a demon. Flask of Relentless Assault is not the highest AP consumable for use against him. [Elixir of Demonslaying] is, and it leaves you open to use [Elixir of Major Mageblood] for more mana regen, or any other guardian elixir of your choosing. It's a bit more expensive, but it's an extra 16mp5, and 145 more attack power than the flask against him, or any other demonic boss.
#3028SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
We haven't killed Brutallus yet, but most of the attempts I was sitting around 1500 dps (with no bloodlusts or CDs). I did get the [Shivering Felspine] though, and as a blood elf thats a fairly massive DPS increase over my old weapon (a torch).
#3029SourcePosted on <=2.0.0CHaoTiCTeX
i count you guys lucky, my guild is backwards in thinking and the retadin almost never gets the melee group....im usually lucky to push 1k dps with might/mark/flask (keep in mind ssc/tk level gear)

also, why use specifically rank 1 consecration, i understand not using max rank, but why not an inbetween? especially with 2.4 affecting the downranking of consecration?

Last edited by CHaoTiCTeX : Yesterday at 4:13 PM. Reason: added a question
#3030SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
I don't know about other ret pallies, but I simply don't have the mana to drop higher than Rank 1 Consecration... when I pop Avenging Wrath (situation depending, of course) I usually drop 1-2 max rank consecrations though, just to get the most out of it.
#3031SourcePosted on <=2.0.0c0rnflake
Originally Posted by Noraj View Post
Also, Brutallus is a demon. Flask of Relentless Assault is not the highest AP consumable for use against him. [Elixir of Demonslaying] is, and it leaves you open to use [Elixir of Major Mageblood] for more mana regen, or any other guardian elixir of your choosing. It's a bit more expensive, but it's an extra 16mp5, and 145 more attack power than the flask against him, or any other demonic boss.
There was a brief discussion last night about whether or not the Elixir of Demonslaying worked on Brutallus. I missed the previous day's attempt on him and some of the melee were claiming that Demonslaying didn't seem to have any effect, so I didn't question it and popped Relentless Assault instead. Can someone confirm or deny that Demonslaying does indeed work Brutallus?

After a heartbreaking number of 3%-1% wipes (people got disconnected or crashed on literally every attempt), I'd be annoyed if Demonslaying did indeed work and we could have eeked out that last bit of damage to kill him.

I also get shafted most of the time and placed in the tank group, even on Brutallus. I'm pushing 1100-1200 dps when I could be doing 1500+ by booting the third rogue :/
#3032SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tetsusaiga
Also what are the 2 best trinkets for a human ret pally, shard and dc:c? Just curious about what to aim for.
#3033SourcePosted on <=2.0.0DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Tetsusaiga View Post
Also what are the 2 best trinkets for a human ret pally, shard and dc:c? Just curious about what to aim for.
This could be easily answered if you went and used the tools that have been listed dozens of times in this thread. "Do it for me" doesn't promote learning like putting your stats into a spreadsheet or Rawr and actually seeing the difference.

Last edited by DarKNecross : Yesterday at 6:10 PM.
#3034SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alborak
Originally Posted by c0rnflake View Post
There was a brief discussion last night about whether or not the Elixir of Demonslaying worked on Brutallus. I missed the previous day's attempt on him and some of the melee were claiming that Demonslaying didn't seem to have any effect, so I didn't question it and popped Relentless Assault instead. Can someone confirm or deny that Demonslaying does indeed work Brutallus?
The attack power difference between the two buffs is going to produce a small enough difference that it is unlikely to be noticeable via watching on-screen numbers, especially for Dual wielding characters which see a smaller raw value increase / point of AP vs 2h classes.

I would see no reason that [Elixir of Demonslaying] wouldn't work on him, but IMO it would take some parsing to be sure. Naked eye evaluations of small differences are unreliable.
#3035SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
What kind of DPS numbers are you pally's seeing on brutallus. Im just interested in comparing my own to some of yours to see if I am on the right track.
Wow Web Stats

Here is mine from a Brut Kill last night

enjoy!
#3036SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
I dont know if its just me, but I think there is a bug with the [Shard of Contempt]

I was swinging against a regular mob when it procced, and I think the proc resets your swing timer. Can anyone else verify this?
#3037SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Wow Web Stats

Here is mine from a Brut Kill last night

enjoy!
Your buffs count 6 heroisms O_o, either WWS is off or I'm missing something.

I see you're using 5 shammies, how many heroisms of those did the melee group get?
#3038SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Prinsesa
also, why use specifically rank 1 consecration, i understand not using max rank, but why not an inbetween? especially with 2.4 affecting the downranking of consecration?
Consecration has been suffering the downranking penalty ever since 2.2

Rank 1 is used because it gives you the best damage:mana return, especially Ret Paladins generally have very little spell damage nowadays, if at all.

Also, the first tick of Consecration can proc the Judgement of Wisdom mana return, and the cheaper the Consecration you use, the better the offset on the mana cost.
#3039SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Your buffs count 6 heroisms O_o, either WWS is off or I'm missing something.

I see you're using 5 shammies, how many heroisms of those did the melee group get?
I got no shaman heroism, its probly the shard proc.
#3040SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Like Zurm posted above, I usually use max rank Cons during Avenging Wrath or towards the end of the fight, and Rank 1 rest of the times. I also use haste pots 90% of the time instead of mana pots, so for folks chaining mana pots, maintaining a higher consecration rank is possible.
#3041SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Your buffs count 6 heroisms O_o, either WWS is off or I'm missing something.

I see you're using 5 shammies, how many heroisms of those did the melee group get?
Heroism - Spells - World of Warcraft

Blizzard is getting far too lazy with names. First the double Light's Grace from the libram, now this.
#3042SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Heroism - Spells - World of Warcraft

Blizzard is getting far too lazy with names. First the double Light's Grace from the libram, now this.

I lack the words to describe how retarded this is. Honestly did they even spend more than 10 seconds thinking of the consequences of that name?

Yea besides one good drop of the tanking trinket, the Priestess has only been dropping the lame spelldamage and healer trinket time after time for us, so I haven't really been able to test it first hand.



Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Like Zurm posted above, I usually use max rank Cons during Avenging Wrath or towards the end of the fight, and Rank 1 rest of the times. I also use haste pots 90% of the time instead of mana pots, so for folks chaining mana pots, maintaining a higher consecration rank is possible.
What I've always been interested to figure out is exactly this: A pure mathematical breakdown between using Consecration max rank and chaining mana pots vs. only using Consecration rank 1 and chaining haste pots.

Personally I've always gone the Consecration route, especially considering I used to have ~260 spelldamage on my T6, though this is nullified now.

According to Bellator's spreadsheet (where'd you go mate, show yourself! ), using max rank consecration and no haste pots is superior with both SoC or SoB, even in the best melee promoting sunwell gear.

Obviously there are a bit too many uncontrolled variables, like using Haste Potion during Avenging Wrath and/or AP trinket/heroism as well as weaving in max rank during those effects vs. whether mana pot spam actually truly allows spamming max rank or if you have to stop occasionally in some fights vs. upranking slightly (using rank 2 for example) when using haste pots.

Getting the new Assassin's Alchemist stone should really trivialize mana issues, though then again there's a slight difference between using that and other trinkets.

Still, it seems the main evidence supports using mana pots and max rank consecration over haste pots, I wonder why you use haste pots, or if there's an underlying math behind it?

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 1:44 AM.
#3043SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Things like this are annoying because it doesn't take much effort to avoid it. Both haste potions and DST give the buff 'Haste' which became a headache for me when I was trying to measure the haste potion usage in my raid.

And regarding Shard of Contempt - yeah it can be frustrating to keep running the heroic as Ret, depending on the group composition, but now at least everyone is guaranteed to get the best-in-slot trinket in 1-2 weeks. DST and Tsunami never dropped for me and it was getting embarrassing doing Illidan with hourglass
#3044SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Still, it seems the main evidence supports using mana pots and max rank consecration over haste pots, I wonder why you use haste pots, or if there's an underlying math behind it?
Your view would be correct if changing from haste to mana pot lets you chain Cons 6, but just doing some napkin math, I don't see how that's possible in a 6min fight. Ignoring Alchemist's Stone, you're gaining 7200 mana from potions which lets you use ~13 more Cons6 over the duration of the fight which is about 24 more dps overall. Haste Potions gives me more than that.
#3045SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Your view would be correct if changing from haste to mana pot lets you chain Cons 6, but just doing some napkin math, I don't see how that's possible in a 6min fight. Ignoring Alchemist's Stone, you're gaining 7200 mana from potions which lets you use ~13 more Cons6 over the duration of the fight which is about 24 more dps overall. Haste Potions gives me more than that.
You're going to get closer to 9,600 mana back from Fel Mana Potions, which allows you to around 19 max rank Consecrations instead of rank 1. Assuming each tick is, on average, 125 damage (and rank1 is 30), that's about a 14,583 damage increase. Over a 6 minute fight, that's about 41DPS

For Haste potions, it's a 12.5% uptime increasing ~50% of your damage by 25.38%. So, assuming before any of this you pull 1600DPS, 50% of that is 800. A 25.38% increase to that is 203DPS. Since it's only a 12.5% uptime on the Haste, it's about a 25DPS increase.
Of course, if you're Horde the Haste potions increase around 75% of your damage, which ends up being closer to 45DPS.

According to my vicodin-influenced napkin math, if you're an Alliance Paladin you'd get more out of Consecration, and if you're Horde you get more from Haste potions.

Last edited by DarKNecross : Today at 9:09 AM.
#3046SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Yeah that seems about right. Mana Pots for Alliance and Haste Pots for horde. Almost starting to feel like two different classes, but that's been beaten to death so I'll leave it at that.
#3047SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Yea agree with what has been posted so far (especially alliance = conc, horde = haste part), I was really just looking for more calculations/thoughts than my own on this

With Alchemist's Stone + Fel Mana Potion, the mana income is really insane, it's close to double that of taking super mana pots with no alchemist's stone (Super + no stone= average 2400mana/2min, Fel Mana + stone = 4480/2min).


I know I'll probably be flamed to hell and back, but I sorta miss my ~260ish spelldamage for exactly this reason, especially considering how much str we got for it (on T6).
#3048SourcePosted on <=2.0.0DarKNecross
I went back and redid my calculations assuming usage of Rank4 consecration instead of Rank6, since Rank4 has a better DPM and a full coefficient.
Rank4 does about 40 less damage per tick, but costs 270 less mana per cast. This allows you to use 38 R4 consecrates compared to 19 R6. Using R4, you gain ~47dps compared to just using R1.

So I'd say the best thing for DPS would be use R4 Consecration most of the time, and R1 if mana is tight.
#3049SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
sheer
seeking information

greetings all,
i am in need of certain information regarding the paladin retribution tree and role.
im a feral cat druid for so long i cant recall anything before, my role in raids is to dps, and of course to tank when needed.

recently the guild leadership (which im part of) brought the idea of having a retribution paladin into our raid (nowdays we work on illiden), with the function of becoming prot when needed.
the job seems fairly similar to what i do nowdays as a cat, dps and tank when needed. be a judgement refresher, raid buffer, and melee group damage amplifier with the aura.
my main questions however would be,

1:how is the retribution paladin's sustained damage compared to the catform? are they close? can the paladin do more even though he is a mana based class and the cat is energy based? (im assuming a shaman is in the group in both cases,as i know windfury is key for paladins,and compareable gear level of course)

2:is the dps itemization for the ret paladins as bad as it is for the cats? (seeing warriors are valid option for dps, i tend to assume paladins have much less gear problems when it comes to loot tables)

3: i installed the addon recommended by some here, named "demon" in order to see debuffs, in this case other paladins' judgements, and i admit i have no idea how to "add" a debuff to it, so if anyone is using that mod, would be great to chip in a hint or two.

p.s this is my first post on these forums, i do read them alot, please forgive me if i posted it at the wrong place.
p.s.s the job is considered for me should i want to replace my current cat with a retribution paladin, so any useful advice is more than welcome.
if any other information is required for the comparison i'de love to provide it.

Last edited by sheer : Today at 9:36 AM.
#3050SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kris
Greetings, sheer,
The sustained damage of a paladin is quite decent, better than what a cat can provide. Mana is usually not much of a problem, especially if you get 2xT6 bonus (I assume you'd be drinking mana pots all the time).
Itemization is good. Better than it used to be at least. It's definitely not perfect, but it's good enough to provide very good dps.
#3051SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Zurm
For those of you who are still curious about Brutallus DPS, my guild finally downed him last night. The attempt we actually killed him, I got burn 3 times (bubbled the first, couldn't do anything about the last two) so I wasn't able to do ideal DPS. However, feel free to look at all the attempts, and the gear I used is the same as my armory shows.

Brutallus Attempts

Enjoy!

Last edited by Zurm : 04/01/08 at 10:27 AM.
#3052SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
I went back and redid my calculations assuming usage of Rank4 consecration instead of Rank6, since Rank4 has a better DPM and a full coefficient.
Rank4 does about 40 less damage per tick, but costs 270 less mana per cast. This allows you to use 38 R4 consecrates compared to 19 R6. Using R4, you gain ~47dps compared to just using R1.

So I'd say the best thing for DPS would be use R4 Consecration most of the time, and R1 if mana is tight.
Rank IV doesn't get a full coefficient. Since it was trained at level 50 it gets ( 50 + 11 ) / 70 * .9524 = .8299, so about 13% less than rank V and rank VI.

Rank IV will get ~182 from JotC versus the 209 that max rank gets. Not a huge difference, but large enough to matter.
#3053SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Oversight on my part, but I thought the downrank penalty would be (59+6)/70 * .9524?
At any rate, that drops the 47dps to 44dps. Not much of a difference.
#3054SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1madmardigan83
Hi Sheer,

Overall, I would say Ret has viable raid dps. However, the overall dps is not going to be the biggest strength being Ret will bring.

I actually wrote a post on the wow forums regarding this and you might want to give it a quick read. Much of the math is actually taken from this thread here and many have found it helpful when debating bringing a Ret along. Essentially it answers the question "why do we want a Ret pally"

WoW Forums -> Ret in Raids. Just copy and paste to Guild.

I know I'm not directly answering your questions, but I thought this information would still be useful and valuable to your guild's consideration.


Good Luck!
#3055SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
The formula I've always seen thrown around is spell level + 11 / character level. I'm not entirely sure.
#3056SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Rank IV doesn't get a full coefficient. Since it was trained at level 50 it gets ( 50 + 11 ) / 70 * .9524 = .8299, so about 13% less than rank V and rank VI.

Rank IV will get ~182 from JotC versus the 209 that max rank gets. Not a huge difference, but large enough to matter.
I can't double check this on live right now, but isn't JotC unaffected by downrank penalties still? (Which is part of what makes R1 so mana efficient - it got the full bonus from JotC)


Also, when doing coefficient testing a long while ago, I found that R4 got the same coefficient as max rank. Are your numbers based on what you see in-game, or on your understanding of downranking mechanics?
#3057SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I can't double check this on live right now, but isn't JotC unaffected by downrank penalties still? (Which is part of what makes R1 so mana efficient - it got the full bonus from JotC)


Also, when doing coefficient testing a long while ago, I found that R4 got the same coefficient as max rank. Are your numbers based on what you see in-game, or on your understanding of downranking mechanics?
Until servers come back up its straight math (and assuming normal downranking penalties). I'll be happy to test it later while doing my dailies though.
#3058SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Blackwater
MAXDPS.Com vs Elitist Jerks

Who to trust?

I just got RAWR for Ret and right off the bat noticed this:

[Furious Gizmatic Goggles] vs [Amani Mask of Death]

MaxDPS has the goggles 8 places above the Mask, while RAWR has the Mask 2 places above the goggles.

Then I noticed some other gear placeings are different as well. Which has got me worried a bit.

(ok it may just be that I just had the head and nothing else entered. Now as I furthered entered my gear, the Goggles shot up there. wierd, but anyways I am probably noobing it up. ;D)

Another thing.

Socket Bonuses.

They advise that you just get your Meta Gem Up and running and put the +8 str rubys in everything else.

Is this correct ?

Very confused on who has the better info.

BW
The World of Warcraft Armory

Last edited by Blackwater : 04/01/08 at 12:39 PM. Reason: I cant spell
#3059SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
grayrest
Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
Who to trust?
Well, rawr.ret is taking your specific gear and buffs into account and is based on the community-verified math/theory behind the ret spreadsheet. Maxdps was written by some guy based on whatever model he's come up with over a weekend (you can read his blog, he usually spends a week or so on a class module) and takes into account the bare minimum necessary to make a decent ranking. That the rankings are different isn't surprising, but people coming to ask about the discrepancy is fairly common on all the classes it covers, not just ret. The rawr module is in beta and hasn't been officially declared fit for public consumption by Anarkii, but I am far more confident in those results than I am in maxdps'.

As far as gemming, activate the meta, then +str unless the socket bonus is +str or +crit.

Also, you get the awesome item links by using [ item]item name here[ /item] tags.

Last edited by grayrest : 04/01/08 at 12:54 PM. Reason: I (use) too many parentheses, also the item tag note
#3060SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1vokzhen
In order to get accurate ratings, you MUST have your full gear slotted in. As one stat increases, the value of other stats change as well (increased AP increases the value of crit, etc). With about 5% base crit and only 3% base hit, RED is pretty worthless compared to the 33 hit rating on the Amani Mast, but with hit cap and your 31% crit it's obvious which is better.
#3061SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Antiock
Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
Who to trust?
Socket Bonuses.

They advise that you just get your Meta Gem Up and running and put the +8 str rubys in everything else.

Is this correct ?
Pretty much, though there's the occasional exception. For example [Crystalforge Greaves] are better with an [Inscribed Noble Topaz] than [Bold Living Ruby], even if you don't need another yellow gem, though you probably could have figured that out for yourself.
#3062SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Iconoclast
Speaking of Rawr

When can we expect to see a new version of rawr with some of the badge vendor loot updates?
#3063SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
~1 Week
#3064SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Avitus had posted an itemcache including all 2.4 items. If you have an older version of itemcache.xml, just replace it with the one from here http://www.lostchapter.org/Avi/Rawr/ItemCache.xml.

Rawr b13, which is the first 'public' release will contain all these as well.
#3065SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
I dont know how much this adds to the consecration discussion but here is my 2 cents.

Near the beginning of a fight, ill pop AW and a haste potion but then on ill chug mana to keep higher ranks of consecration down. I dont think the 15 secs of burst creates more damage than sustained rank 2/4 consecration as opposed to using haste pots on CD w/ rank one consecrate especially on fights where you are exorcising.
#3066SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
For those of you who are still curious about Brutallus DPS, my guild finally downed him last night. The attempt we actually killed him, I got burn 3 times (bubbled the first, couldn't do anything about the last two) so I wasn't able to do ideal DPS. However, feel free to look at all the attempts, and the gear I used is the same as my armory shows.

Brutallus Attempts
Enjoy!
My sincere thanks for posting your WWS. For reference, here is a link to my guild's WWS which includes painful 2% and 1% wipes (try 10 and try 13 respectively).

Crowd Control - Blackwing Lair - Brutallus Attempts


This is exactly what I need help understanding. In the past, I've always used Zurm's gear set as a guide for my own gear selection. According to the spreadsheet, under the same raid/buff circumstances, his gear registers at 1578 while mine is at 1570; a negligible difference at this point.

With reference to the 1% wipe (try 13) of my WWS and Disbanded's kill of Brutallus, I am only doing 1480 dps while Zurm deals 1599 dps. Broken down, I'm dealing more damage in white hits but less in every other category. His exorcism damage is far higher than mine which leads me to believe that he's using at least a rank 4 version.

Aside from that observation, it appears that our group composition is identical except for the presence of a feral druid. I'm at work right now so I can't really compare the rest of the raid makeup to my raid's makeup, but does the feral druid really improve DPS by that much?

This attempt, I was going all out; demonslaying elixirs, haste potions, everything I could do to maximize my DPS and I still came out lower than most people.

Suggestions, analyses, and criticisms are appreciated. Thanks.
#3067SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Here's what I pulled off of Maintankadin's forum:
It's rounded, though.
Consecration Rank 1 - 8 + 0.06D
Consecration Rank 2 - 15 + 0.075D
Consecration Rank 3 - 24 + 0.095D
Consecration Rank 4 - 35 + 0.115D
Consecration Rank 5 - 48 + 0.12D
Consecration Rank 6 - 64 + 0.12D
#3068SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
@Azu: Did you tried Fel mana pots over hast pots? Yesterday's tries, I was chainning hast potions, but on Brutallus I would run oom too fast. Tonight, we downed him (I've finally gotten into the melee group, going from 1k dps to 1560) and I couldn't have lasted the whole fight without priorizing mana pots (I even went back to felwood to farm some Demonic Runes )
It's cool to see new content again, and to down boss while playing a spec I actually enjoy... well it's priceless!

Anyway, on another topic: Any one had trouble keeping other pallys judgement up? Since 2.4 I can't seem to keep anything else than mine on bosses. Kindda anoying, to say the very least.
#3069SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
@Azu: Did you tried Fel mana pots over hast pots? Yesterday's tries, I was chainning hast potions, but on Brutallus I would run oom too fast. Tonight, we downed him (I've finally gotten into the melee group, going from 1k dps to 1560) and I couldn't have lasted the whole fight without priorizing mana pots (I even went back to felwood to farm some Demonic Runes )
It's cool to see new content again, and to down boss while playing a spec I actually enjoy... well it's priceless!

Anyway, on another topic: Any one had trouble keeping other pallys judgement up? Since 2.4 I can't seem to keep anything else than mine on bosses. Kindda anoying, to say the very least.
I have considered farming up mats for Fel Mana Pots but haven't used them yet. For Brutallus, I pop AW + Haste Potion at 5:30. At 3:30, I drink a super mana potion. When Brutallus is at 20%, the enhancement shaman pops Bloodlust to which I pop AW for a second time and use a second haste potion.

As long as JoW is on the boss, mana consumption has not been an issue, but I'm only using rank 1 consecration and rank 1 exorcism.

Regarding other paladin's judgements, I've actually noticed that JoW/JoL is getting resisted upon the first application attempt which has really affected our DPS on Brutallus. Unfortunately, I don't notice it until I'm at <10% mana. During the 10s judgement cooldown, she gets caught up in the stress of healing and doesn't notice it either. Could it be that the paladin judgments are getting pushed off due to an excess of debuffs on the target?
#3070SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
Regarding other paladin's judgements, I've actually noticed that JoW/JoL is getting resisted upon the first application attempt which has really affected our DPS on Brutallus. Unfortunately, I don't notice it until I'm at <10% mana. During the 10s judgement cooldown, she gets caught up in the stress of healing and doesn't notice it either. Could it be that the paladin judgments are getting pushed off due to an excess of debuffs on the target?
On this subject I would consider getting Demon(can be found on the WAU) and customizing it to your specific raid. I have the three judgements(as well as Sunders, Warlock Curses and some others) on there, and it makes it very easy to see when JoW/JoL are not applied or have fallen off.
#3071SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
Regarding other paladin's judgements, I've actually noticed that JoW/JoL is getting resisted upon the first application attempt which has really affected our DPS on Brutallus. ...

Could it be that the paladin judgments are getting pushed off due to an excess of debuffs on the target?
Judgements which place debuffs (Wisdom, Light, Crusader and probably most OP of all: Justice) cannot be resisted. It was changed to this way in 1.9

Most likely what you are seeing is as you said the debuffs are being pushed off. I've had this happen a lot especially on extended fights. I use Demon which is an addon that you can configure to show certain debuffs on the target and it immediately greys out whatever debuff I have it to show that has fallen off and lets me get another Paladin to put it back up.

I've often thought that the fact that JoJ cannot be resisted is one of the most powerful and unknown things in PvP that Paladins have going for them. You can resist a Frost Nova or Dodge a Hamstring but you cannot avoid JoJ, it will always hit 100 times out of 100.

Edit: beaten to it :P
#3072SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Suriel
I would be more than happy to help you test SoB vs SoC, ive been curious for a while now hearing that its better raid dps. Just let me know what i can do to help ya. If you wish we can talk on vent or AIM further if needed
#3073SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Azure, looking at the two WWS's and comparing the abilities, I think I found where the problem is.
Your Melee+SoB+CS damage is pretty close (within 1,000dmg). Zurm has 4,500 more damage with JoB, due to the RNG and Crits. The main difference I can see is the 15,000 damage from Exorcism. Not sure I've ever heard of downranking Exorcism, but that's where you were the furthest behind.
The other thing is time fighting. Since your attempt was a little longer than Zurm's, your DPS seems lower, although the actual damage done isn't much different. If you were to take the overall damage you did and use Zurm's DPS time, you would have had 1547DPS.
#3074SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
but you cannot avoid JoJ, it will always hit 100 times out of 100.
Weeeelll... not really.
If you pvp you've surely noticed that every now and then a judgement just won't apply. No "miss" nor "resist" just a cooldown used with no effect. I wonder if that's what happened ...

And my problem is, once we're in the fight, I really can't ask my healing pals to go rejudge. Considering how healing intensive this fight is, I just can't. I had to do Brutallus without wisdom or light... If anyone got info on this, we're trying felmyst atm, and light would help quite a lot.
#3075SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
I dont know if anyone noticed this but the T6 sunwell pieces all have expertise on them. So if you a human weilding Apolyon and using all 3 peices you will be expertise capped. The shard of contempt becomes a downgrade to say DST or tsunami.
#3076SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nemcova
So. my guild had downed Kalecgos the other night (Server 2nd and ALliance first yay!) and we did some brutallus attempts on monday night.

Now. one thing that kinda bugged me is that we didnt min max for the fight and they opted to keep me holy instead of me as ret.

Now question is, is a ret paladin absolutely needed for Brutallus? whats everyone else think?
#3077SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Nemcova View Post
So. my guild had downed Kalecgos the other night (Server 2nd and ALliance first yay!) and we did some brutallus attempts on monday night.

Now. one thing that kinda bugged me is that we didnt min max for the fight and they opted to keep me holy instead of me as ret.

Now question is, is a ret paladin absolutely needed for Brutallus? whats everyone else think?
Is a Ret Paladin necessary? No. Incredibly helpful? Yes.
#3078SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I dont know if anyone noticed this but the T6 sunwell pieces all have expertise on them. So if you a human weilding Apolyon and using all 3 peices you will be expertise capped. The shard of contempt becomes a downgrade to say DST or tsunami.
No, you are not expertise capped from only the 3 pieces. Going off the 6.5% (103 rating) requirement postulated by the rogue thread, you are still a fair amount short. The 3 pieces of the T6 give you a total of 60 expertise. The human racial is worth 19.5 more expertise rating, putting you at a total of 79.5 expertise, or 23.5 expertise rating short of cap. The expertise on Shard isn't worth as much for a human because of the racial, but again, the ability to guarantee that 100% of your attacks hit or crit is worth a lot more than a small theoretical DPS increase.
#3079SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The expertise on Shard isn't worth as much for a human because of the racial, but again, the ability to guarantee that 100% of your attacks hit or crit is worth a lot more than a small theoretical DPS increase.
Ahh, I see. Thanks Toaster.

I was going by Belator's sheet noticing that the shard was lower DPS than some of the other trinkets with 3 expertise pieces. I agree, being over the cap is more important that spike procs, especially because DST and Tsunami have always evaded me. =/
#3080SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nemcova
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Is a Ret Paladin necessary? No. Incredibly helpful? Yes.
its just annoying cuz they are still soemwhat against ret paladins even tho we have posted our best boss kills (2:36 on teron) with a ret paladin in the raid. I know they hold me in high regard as Holy. But for brutallus i know we have to min max as best as possible. Our Melee group was enhance sham/fury war/arms war/ 2 rogues.


im just hoping at some point we go back to our ret paladin set up. /shrug no matter how much math i propose to my officers and no matter how much better our kills are with ret paladin in the raid, they still dont believe it.
#3081SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Nemcova View Post
its just annoying cuz they are still soemwhat against ret paladins even tho we have posted our best boss kills (2:36 on teron) with a ret paladin in the raid. I know they hold me in high regard as Holy. But for brutallus i know we have to min max as best as possible. Our Melee group was enhance sham/fury war/arms war/ 2 rogues.

im just hoping at some point we go back to our ret paladin set up. /shrug no matter how much math i propose to my officers and no matter how much better our kills are with ret paladin in the raid, they still dont believe it.
In my opinion the Bonkadin is very needed on this fight if only for the JoW/JotC

If you look at wwsscoreboard.com, the highest DPS brutalus kills almost all have Ret pallys in them.
#3082SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Gaffadin
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Weeeelll... not really.
If you pvp you've surely noticed that every now and then a judgement just won't apply. No "miss" nor "resist" just a cooldown used with no effect. I wonder if that's what happened ...
I have never noticed that, ever.

Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I dont know if anyone noticed this but the T6 sunwell pieces all have expertise on them. So if you a human weilding Apolyon and using all 3 peices you will be expertise capped. The shard of contempt becomes a downgrade to say DST or tsunami.
Not true, you cannot become dodge-immune by only using the new T6 pieces, they do not have enough Expertise on them to do this.

See my detailed post here for a run-down on Expertise for Ret.

Edit: dammit beaten again. Getting to be a habit today :p

Last edited by Gaffadin : 04/01/08 at 5:37 PM.
#3083SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Liania
Had the exact same problems back in the days where paladins wanted to tank and everyone was shouting that paladins cant tank and that they are heal bots, but look at where prots are today..

Ret popularity is advancing slowly but steady, heck even nihilum uses ret nowadays..
#3084SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Petru
Just got me a Felspine, first trash pack in the instance on our first run there And then a second dropped from the second pack, we couldn't believe it. Wacked a mongoose on that pigsticker 'o win, looks ace.
#3085SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Bloodvalor
Is the most recent version of Rawr Retribution 1.05? That's the latest I could find in this thread.

If so, for some reason it will not run for me. I see the startup splash screen but it goes away in about .5seconds and then nothing comes up. Anyone experiencing this? Is there a fix? Thanks in advance. I really want to get this going so I can see how my current Ret gear stacks up, and what I should be trying to get. My guild will down Illidan soon, and there has been talk of bringing in a Ret paladin. I'm currently holy and would love to go Ret, so I'm trying to prepare well in advance.

I've looked at maxdps.com but it just seems "off" to me. Anyone think that maxdps.com is actually worth it ?
#3086SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Bloodvalor View Post
Is the most recent version of Rawr Retribution 1.05? That's the latest I could find in this thread.

If so, for some reason it will not run for me. I see the startup splash screen but it goes away in about .5seconds and then nothing comes up. Anyone experiencing this? Is there a fix? Thanks in advance. I really want to get this going so I can see how my current Ret gear stacks up, and what I should be trying to get. My guild will down Illidan soon, and there has been talk of bringing in a Ret paladin. I'm currently holy and would love to go Ret, so I'm trying to prepare well in advance.

I've looked at maxdps.com but it just seems "off" to me. Anyone think that maxdps.com is actually worth it ?
Wait for around a week for the first public release of Rawr.Retribution.
#3087SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1orkyben
Anyone tried the new [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] yet?

For an Aldor player, it grants 200AP for 10 seconds, and for Scryer has a chance to deal an "Arcane Strike" upon melee hit for around 333-367 damage (average of 350).

I'm not sure if Rawr or Bellator's spreadsheet take these procs into account so its a little hard to value them.

From some rough testing with an Aldor Rogue friend of mine we came to the conclusion they both have a 45 second internal cooldown, and proc fairly readily. For him, he was granted the 200AP bonus on average every 50 seconds, so approximately equivalent to 40AP.

As for the Scryer proc, with my slower weapon, I was a little less lucky on the procs but it seems to average out at around 1PPM. The "Arcane Strike" can also crit, and I would imagine this is based upon Melee Crit rating, in which case, asuming a 30% crit chance, would add around 7.5 DPS to the value of this neck. This could also scale Misery and other such target debuffs as it is listed as Arcane Damage.

I would imagine, combined with the base stats on the neck, that it may actually edge out the [Pendant of the Perilous]. Anyone read anything else? Or tested this in a raid yet? WWS might help here. =D
#3088SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Rank IV doesn't get a full coefficient. Since it was trained at level 50 it gets ( 50 + 11 ) / 70 * .9524 = .8299, so about 13% less than rank V and rank VI.

Rank IV will get ~182 from JotC versus the 209 that max rank gets. Not a huge difference, but large enough to matter.
So I just tested this:

R1 Consecrate: 13 DPS
R1 Cons. + JotC: 39 DPS

Difference is 26 DPS, or 208 damage over 8 seconds. My JotC adds 219 +holy, so 208/219 = 95% coefficient on JotC from R1. JotC does not suffer from downrank penalties



The downrank penalty does apply to +dmg from gear, but there's not much of that left on our gear.
#3089SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might will probably edge out Pendant of the Perilous/Choker of Serrated Blades. I just haven't seen enough data about the Arcane Strike proc yet.
#3090SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ohmss
Hi, I'm not very good with numbers so I'm doing my best to grasp the ret theorycrafting. I came into my current raid as a prot pally with a pretty good grasp of that and I gathered the ret pvp gear on the side as the stats were more beneficial to us than the other stuff pre-2.4. I had only considered ret for pvp on the side. Then tanking on trash and Akama adds became less needed, so I started coming to BT as ret. Now, outside of Hyjal they want me ret full time. We have just gotten to the point where I'd say BT is on farm and I have to stop pushing my prot gear forward and push for ret instead.

My main question is whether my gear farm needs to lean toward the non-set pieces from BT (with an eye toward armor pen and more crit), or T6, or an even balance that one of you guys has worked out to be the optimal?

About my current gear: currently clearly gemmed/enchanted more for pvp, which will change as the new gear comes in.

For a human is the Torch of the Damned such a significant upgrade that it's worth the crap I'll get from the dps warrior that I got the Cat's Edge when he wasn't there and now I'm not even going to use it? On the spreadsheet it's showing a 5 dps upgrade to the torch, but I guess you could say I don't understand the sheet enough to know if changing my gear as you advise will increase or decrease that number.

Also I've been farming H MrT for the Shard with no luck yet but it is a clear upgrade over romulo's (which is a placeholder due to lack of options). Also I read the shard + the belt + one of the other 2 new T6 pieces for the expertise is almost required for Sunwell. But what is my best option to replace the bloodlust brooch? The beserker's call is obviously the direct upgrade choice, but are there other options I should consider that would provide a greater benefit? I don't raid SSC anymore so the Tsunami is out and I've never had the privilege of seeing a DST drop. I've looked at the Crusader card, and it seems like it's becoming less beneficial (am I wrong)? Also I'm going to start rotating in fel mana pots (as I saw you guys suggest) so the added spell dmg from Crusader becomes even less useful. (amirite?)

I will try to get a WWS after raid soon so we can see where the numbers I'm pulling are failing the gear level I'm at. I'm positive I haven't learned to maximize my rotation yet, and with Omen in the state it's in it will be even harder with the potential of pulling aggro.

Also as a random question, is there any Dr. Boom equivalent for a melee to guage their dps? If not, what end-game boss fight is the best judge for average dps?

Thanks guys in advance for any advice you can offer me.

My armory
#3091SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Thanks for checking that Fiola, its good to know they still haven't changed it.

Now the question arises as to which rank gives you the best damage/mana ratio. Assuming that every rank gets 208 damage from JotC and you have all the normal percentage modifiers (Sanctity Aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Crusade, Vengeance, Misery) it would look something like this.

Rank I
Damage: 380
Mana Cost: 120
Damage/Mana: 3.17
Rank II
Damage: 458
Mana Cost: 205
Damage/Mana: 2.23
Rank III
Damage: 558
Mana Cost: 290
Damage/Mana: 1.92
Rank IV
Damage: 681
Mana Cost: 390
Damage/Mana: 1.75
Rank V
Damage: 826
Mana Cost: 505
Damage/Mana: 1.64
Rank VI
Damage: 1005
Mana Cost: 660
Damage/Mana: 1.52
Clearly because the lower ranks get full damage from JotC they are much more efficient than the higher ranks. What I find interesting is that you get half of the damage/mana efficiency between Rank I and Rank VI, yet you only lose a little more than a tenth of one between Rank VI and Rank V. What this would mean is that if you're going to uprank Consecration and your mana supply can handle it you should be as close to Rank VI as possible.

Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might will probably edge out Pendant of the Perilous/Choker of Serrated Blades. I just haven't seen enough data about the Arcane Strike proc yet.
I've been slacking on my heroic farming so I'm only about halfway to exalted, but when I get there I'll pick one up and check it out (yeah, I went Scryers way back when I was young and impressionable).
#3092SourcePosted on <=2.0.0ulath7
I seem to be full of questions today, and since I'm really pushing my guild to accept me as Ret, I want to make sure I'm armed to the teeth. I'm fully PvE focused, and have yet to step into a BG.

I'm not sure this has been asked before, but other than the rotation noted on page 1 and using the abilities as soon as they are off cooldown, do we need to pay attention to a specific rotation or timing sequence to maximize our DPS (I'm thinking of the necessity of a MS warrior having to perfect swing timing to get better DPS)? I have somewhere close to 2K unbuffed AP, and we are just now breaking into T6 (Armory is current with gear/spec). Yes I need some upgrades, but I've just switched from Holy as a "declared" spec, so my armour should get better quickly.

As a Blood elf, I didn't even take SoCommand as SoBlood works better and allows me to focus on Melee damage, but should I start focusing on Expertise and/or Haste (don't mean to start a holy war)? or get my unbuffed crit to 30% first?

As a side note, I was able to compare to a MS warrior in our guild who is well accepted in raids, so I'm hoping our healers will stop slacking and let me actually RAID as Ret.

Thanks in advance.
#3093SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
His exorcism damage is far higher than mine which leads me to believe that he's using at least a rank 4 version.
I just use max rank...never even really thought to downrank cause its a fairly long cooldown.

Also, on Brutallus, I usually drop a fel mana potion towards the beginning (after my first AW, because I usually drop 1-2 max rank consecrations), and then drop haste potions for the rest of the fight on cooldown.

Originally Posted by ulath7 View Post
...do we need to pay attention to a specific rotation or timing sequence to maximize our DPS ...

should I start focusing on Expertise and/or Haste (don't mean to start a holy war)? or get my unbuffed crit to 30% first?
In terms of rotation, I just use a "priority list" of sorts. I CS on cooldown, judge gets next global priority, then exorcism (where applicable), then R1 consecration. Keep in mind a lot of your utility is keeping judgements up... if they fall off you fail (or the boss fight sucks, IE Kalecgos).

Regarding the stats, I'd suggest you try our the Rawr beta or spreadsheets, because there are a lot of factors to take into account. Looking at my level of gear, I've reached a point where Expertise + Haste are better than pretty much anything else. However, a decent crit rate is very important to get Vengeance stacked quickly and keep it up... but I'd say 25% is all you NEED.
#3094SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sinborn
Ulath7, you really should take SoC. There are fights in BT where you can't afford the damage done to you with SoB, most notably Reliquary of Souls P1 and P3.

Tell your GM or class officer to look at the top ten WWS logs from Brutallus. They all have a ret pally in, if I'm not mistaken.
#3095SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rizso
How is [Insane Strength Potion] comparing to [Haste Potion] for alliance retri paladins? As its 319 attack power with Kings, divine strengh and unleashed rage.
#3096SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Merple
Originally Posted by Sinborn View Post
Ulath7, you really should take SoC. There are fights in BT where you can't afford the damage done to you with SoB, most notably Reliquary of Souls P1 and P3.

Tell your GM or class officer to look at the top ten WWS logs from Brutallus. They all have a ret pally in, if I'm not mistaken.
Nothing like instagibbing yourself on Prince when enfeeble hits. Twice in two weeks, I've managed to forget to switch.
#3097SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lopaka
Originally Posted by Sinborn View Post
Ulath7, you really should take SoC. There are fights in BT where you can't afford the damage done to you with SoB, most notably Reliquary of Souls P1 and P3.

Tell your GM or class officer to look at the top ten WWS logs from Brutallus. They all have a ret pally in, if I'm not mistaken.
I would argue that the damage done to you by SoB during RoS is so small that it shouldn't be any concern, especially since you should already have some sort of dedicated melee healer. (chain heal/CoH) JoL is usually enough to cover the damage SoB does, and really isn't a concern.

What other fights in BT can you not afford the tiny amount of damage done by SoB? The Prince fight in Kara is the only fight where using SoB really can have disastrous results.
#3098SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
While SoC is good to have if you occassionally pvp/farm/do Prince, you can do without it otherwise. I never use SoC in BT/Hyjal
#3099SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alborak
Originally Posted by Rizso View Post
How is [Insane Strength Potion] comparing to [Haste Potion] for alliance retri paladins? As its 319 attack power with Kings, divine strengh and unleashed rage.
This was discussed a few pages back. Haste pots add more damage.
#3100SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Sinborn View Post
Ulath7, you really should take SoC. There are fights in BT where you can't afford the damage done to you with SoB, most notably Reliquary of Souls P1 and P3.

Tell your GM or class officer to look at the top ten WWS logs from Brutallus. They all have a ret pally in, if I'm not mistaken.
I definitely use SoB for all of Reliquary... don't know what you're talking about. If you plan on doing lots of kara though, you REALLY can't use SoB For prince... that's about it though.
#3101SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I just use max rank...never even really thought to downrank cause its a fairly long cooldown.

Also, on Brutallus, I usually drop a fel mana potion towards the beginning (after my first AW, because I usually drop 1-2 max rank consecrations), and then drop haste potions for the rest of the fight on cooldown.
I can't seem to stay in good mana standing when using max rank Exorcism, but that may have to do with me not having the 2 piece T6 bonus. Hopefully after tonight, Kalecgos will drop the bracers for me.

Looks like Fel Mana Potions will be my new investment. Thanks for the information!
#3102SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Thanks for checking that Fiola, its good to know they still haven't changed it.

Now the question arises as to which rank gives you the best damage/mana ratio. Assuming that every rank gets 208 damage from JotC and you have all the normal percentage modifiers (Sanctity Aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Crusade, Vengeance, Misery) it would look something like this.
...
One more thing... Personal % modifiers don't seem to help the JotC added bonus damage. Makes sense, since it's a debuff on the mob: downranking doesn't affect it because it's a "post-character" modifier; as a downside, %damage self buffs don't affect it either for the same reason.


I know someone pointed that out in this thread 50~ pages ago, but I can't be bothered to look for it. It's definitely true since the numbers I posted were under the effects of Sant. Aura and iSanct. Aura. (I did bother to click off Vengeance though) Adding that in would change the numbers in favor of Max rank consecrate a little (not by that much), since it has more base damage that is affected by the buffs.


R1 Cons. w/ buffs only applying to base damage:
Damage: 64 * (modifiers) + 208 (JotC) = 297
Mana Cost: 120 mana
DPM: 2.47

(for more fun, replace JotC with JoW, and then do another set for JoW + JotC)

Your point about the pointlessness of downranking 1 or 2 ranks is true though, since there's no +dmg on our gear to take advantage of the higher DPM scaling of R4/R5. (for Ret anyways; Prot pallies should have some use for downranking)
#3103SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Anyway, on another topic: Any one had trouble keeping other pallys judgement up? Since 2.4 I can't seem to keep anything else than mine on bosses. Kindda anoying, to say the very least.
This is most definitely debuffs getting knocke off. With the amount of DPS on Brutallus and the emphasis on max DPS it can happen.

We've had to make a lock respec and tell people not to use low priority debuffs to keep JoW on Brut.


Originally Posted by Liania View Post
Ret popularity is advancing slowly but steady, heck even nihilum uses ret nowadays..
They do? Interesting... I remember that one thread

Retribution After 2.3 (BT/MH) - Nihilum - MMORPG Gaming Guild and Community
#3104SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1gcbirzan
Libram of Avengement

Didn't see this being definitely established for the final version of servers, but, in 2.4.1 (not sure about 2.4, I was protection the whole time), Libram of Avengement isn't bugged anymore and will not proc off seal of crusader, light or wisdom.
#3105SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Someone a page or two back linked a post to the official boards that they made, and showed that ret adds something like 600 raid DPS or more, and it scales with gear. Ret is extremely useful now in raids... the only catch is the Ret paladin usually has to take a rogue's spot in the melee group. I see no reason to bring a ret paladin if they can't get into the melee buff group...we scale very well with group buffs (better than most "pure" dpsers), but pretty much fail at damage without those buffs, and our raid benefit is entirely nullified by the terrible DPS.
#3106SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I know someone pointed that out in this thread 50~ pages ago, but I can't be bothered to look for it. It's definitely true since the numbers I posted were under the effects of Sant. Aura and iSanct. Aura. (I did bother to click off Vengeance though) Adding that in would change the numbers in favor of Max rank consecrate a little (not by that much), since it has more base damage that is affected by the buffs.
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
#3107SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by gcbirzan View Post
Didn't see this being definitely established for the final version of servers, but, in 2.4.1 (not sure about 2.4, I was protection the whole time), Libram of Avengement isn't bugged anymore and will not proc off seal of crusader, light or wisdom.
Just tested this. Yep.


Makes the switch to the badge SoC libram a little easier.


Edit: Thanks for digging up that post, Avitus.
#3108SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sapp
By the way, has anyone examined the factional difference now that there's truly solid WWS evidence of it?

Brutallus being a perfect ret fight, I find it somewhat odd that Alliance ret paladins seem to be consistently outpreforming Horde ret paladins in the top brutallus WWS logs.

I've only seen maybe a handful of the horde rets performing at the sort of numbers I'd expect, one of which being Elitist Jerks' ret (who still has gear to pick up, too), and one from an EU guild called Nethersturm Legion. Most others seem to be doing the ~1500 DPS range.
#3109SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
No, you are not expertise capped from only the 3 pieces. Going off the 6.5% (103 rating) requirement postulated by the rogue thread, you are still a fair amount short. The 3 pieces of the T6 give you a total of 60 expertise. The human racial is worth 19.5 more expertise rating, putting you at a total of 79.5 expertise, or 23.5 expertise rating short of cap. The expertise on Shard isn't worth as much for a human because of the racial, but again, the ability to guarantee that 100% of your attacks hit or crit is worth a lot more than a small theoretical DPS increase.
Been considering not going for the T6 boots and just sticking with Dreadboots.

T6 wrist + belt + Shard of Contempt + Human racial = 104 expertise rating, exactly 1 point above the cap.

This way I'll have a bit less +hit probs since the dreadboots have some very decent +hit.


Oh and it's also ~20 free stam and I don't have to put up with the t6 boots that look like ass (shiny white/goldish boots with a sunwell set that's generally dark/black).
#3110SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ulath7
Thank you for the replies about SoCommand... I hadn't considered the Price fight since I usually run out for the Enfeeble anyways... however the question still stands...
- should we use a swing timer for additional DPS or just use Crusader Strike/Judge when able (situationally other abilities)?

Thanks
#3111SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1xellos
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
They do? Interesting... I remember that one thread
I seem to recall a post on WoW Paladin forums quoting a Nihilum member saying that they use ret now, but I can't find it atm since I'm not able to access WoW forums from work. I'll see if I can dig it up later.
#3112SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
This was discussed a few pages back. Haste pots add more damage.
Also discussed a page or so ago was Fel Mana Potions provide a higher DPS increase than Haste Potions for Alliance Paladins.
#3113SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ayreon
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Been considering not going for the T6 boots and just sticking with Dreadboots.

T6 wrist + belt + Shard of Contempt + Human racial = 104 expertise rating, exactly 1 point above the cap.

This way I'll have a bit less +hit probs since the dreadboots have some very decent +hit.
Didn't think of that but it's actually a great suggestion, thanks ! Especially when the only thing you loose it the 27 haste rating which for alliance isn't that hot.

Oh and it's also ~20 free stam and I don't have to put up with the t6 boots that look like ass (shiny white/goldish boots with a sunwell set that's generally dark/black).
This quite bothers me - I cannot understand why couldn't they just use the Pearl Inlaid Boots graphics for t6 boots and the new graphics of Girdle of Hope for the belt I even submitted a feedback on the PTR regarding this. Here's to hoping the looks get changed in a future patch..
#3114SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Been considering not going for the T6 boots and just sticking with Dreadboots.
Are you considering an all plate set? If you throw some leather in the mix: [Duplicitous Guise] and [Leggings of the Immortal Night] you get quite a bit of hit.

Also, if the paladin starts wearing all the leather gear for ferals/rogues which carry armor pen, executioner breaks ahead of mongoose. I did this in Bellator's sheet and its only a 1dps delta, but its worth mentioning.

Last edited by Saltycracker : 04/02/08 at 3:26 PM.
#3115SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Ayreon View Post
This quite bothers me - I cannot understand why couldn't they just use the Pearl Inlaid Boots graphics for t6 boots and the new graphics of Girdle of Hope for the belt I even submitted a feedback on the PTR regarding this. Here's to hoping the looks get changed in a future patch..
Yep, I submitted feedback too, guess it just fell on deaf ears.


Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Are you considering an all plate set? If you throw some leather in the mix: [Duplicitous Guise] and [Leggings of the Immortal Night] you get quite a bit of hit.
This would be a plate only set yes. Eventually I might consider some leather pieces if they offer a very significant dps boost.


Just had the recipe for [Hard Khorium Band] drop and made one \o/

I'm surprised how good it calcs even for alliance, despite the haste rating. Along with [Band of Ruinous Delight] it seems to be the best combo atm.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/02/08 at 3:31 PM.
#3116SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Yeah Hard Khorium Band was the first pattern that dropped for us and I got it made a few days back. I dropped enchanting a month back to pick up leatherworking - now I wish I had delayed it till I got this ring, since I wont be replacing it till WotLK.
#3117SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
This would be a plate only set yes. Eventually I might consider some leather pieces if they offer a very significant dps boost.
Maybe I'm just a bad paladin, but I have always considered some of the leather pieces as better DPS. I think my ideal endgame set has only the tier sunwell pieces as plate and the rest being leather. [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] and [Demontooth Shoulderpads] are a couple more good examples of leather being the new PVE Melee standard. I think a lot of warrs/shams are looking at these as well.
#3118SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
Originally Posted by Ohmss View Post
Also as a random question, is there any Dr. Boom equivalent for a melee to guage their dps? If not, what end-game boss fight is the best judge for average dps?
if you goto the blasted lands, there are mobs on the rim of the crater around the portal called servent of ... (cant remember who)

you can dps them all the way down to one-percent and they wont die, to exit combat, you have to run away from them until the stop chasing you, but it works
#3119SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Only prob is those mobs will face you're attacking them, so it's not 100% accurate since they will parry, but yea it's better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Maybe I'm just a bad paladin, but I have always considered some of the leather pieces as better DPS. I think my ideal endgame set has only the tier sunwell pieces as plate and the rest being leather.
I think it's down to personal choice. If switching 4 pieces of my gear to leather will give me 20 DPS increase, I'll probably not go for it. 20 dps is just an example, but it would need to be a big increase to use that much leather.
#3120SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Only prob is those mobs will face you're attacking them, so it's not 100% accurate since they will parry, but yea it's better than nothing.
Another downside is that they have lower AC and higher chance to be hit/crit due to their level. But yeah, better than nothing.
#3121SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Another downside is that they have lower AC and higher chance to be hit/crit due to their level. But yeah, better than nothing.
I remember back in Pre-BC days, someone kited one at 1% to Stormwind where it will indefinitely autoattack guards. I was able to AFK skill up my weapon all the way to 300 with that. I'm not sure if it's possible to do this anymore but alliance players could potentially get some good parses without the parries.
#3122SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Aren't there mobs in DM North for the tribute run that you can attack indefinitely from behind, or am I just crazy?
#3123SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tyralon
I originally found this thread/forum from seeing Cromfel post on the official wow forums about retribution. I've started reading here again lately since I might get the chance to go ret soon, so I'm trying to pick up as much as I can to perform my best and give us all a good name
I've gotten acquainted with spreadsheets as well, which leads me to my question. I can't seem to get my theoretical gear socketed in bellator's spread sheet. Whenever I click on any of the 'Gem' buttons I get an error which reads: "Run-time error '1004': Method 'Range' of object '_Global' failed" and I can only choose 'End' or 'Debug'. It would be quite nice to know which gems my gear has in this spreadsheet, if any at all.
I' using version 34.
#3124SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shikara
Hey all, i've noticed a few things while going over our wws from Brutallus last night.

Wow Web Stats - If you're curious.

His buffs and debuffs show 3x JoW and 3x JotC i remember asking at one point during the encounter for JoW to be reapplied because it felt like i wasn't getting proccs. but i never reapplied JotC (yet there are 3 applications up there on wws)

Does anyone know of a mod that monitors specific debuffs up on your target. I recall someone mentioning it a week or so ago but the search feature fails and for the life of me i can't find it.

cheers!
#3125SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Shikara View Post
Does anyone know of a mod that monitors specific debuffs up on your target. I recall someone mentioning it a week or so ago but the search feature fails and for the life of me i can't find it.

cheers!
Demon from WoWAce works wonderfully.
#3126SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Shikara
Champion, thanks a bunch.

Last edited by Shikara : 04/02/08 at 9:13 PM.
#3127SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Aren't there mobs in DM North for the tribute run that you can attack indefinitely from behind, or am I just crazy?
I believe the mobs you're referring to are the Gordok Spirits: Gordok Spirit - NPCs - World of Warcraft
#3128SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Only prob is those mobs will face you're attacking them, so it's not 100% accurate since they will parry, but yea it's better than nothing.
The mobs don't parry or dodge.
#3129SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zechaos
Hi Guys

I've just release two movies, our first kills of Kalecgos and Brutallus.
PoV Retribution.

Kalecgos : kalecgos_wraith.avi - FileFront.com
Brutallus : brutallus_wraith.avi - FileFront.com

I'm willing to have some comment/criticism about the play style, errors, etc ...

Hope you'll enjoy

The movies is encoded in H264, use vlc or h264 codec
#3130SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ariesz
For brutallus, What was your dps during that fight? Also what swing time mod is that?

Videos are great btw.
#3131SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Noraj
Going through Bellator's, looking for my best upgrades I happened upon an interesting thing. While [Shivering Felspine] is clearly an upgrade for Bloodelves, while I'm just a stubby Dwarf, I was surprised that the spreadsheet showed it as a 5dps increase over Torch of the Damned for Seal of Command usage with my current gear, upping my white DPS by 16, lowering SoCom by 14, Windfury DPS by 3, and keeping Crusader Strike constant.

Common sense dictates that this would be a negative move, even given the high percentage of our damage from normal melee, but I'm curious. Even in the spreadsheet's default "Tier 7" gear set, the Shivering Felspine beats the Torch by 10 DPS for Seal of Command usage. What say the rest of you?
#3132SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Blackwater
What a difference

Ok, Last night SSC run, I basically abused my "A" power (I need an A to set Pally Power up for the buffs), and created this group.

Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue
Me (Ret Pally)

Wow Web Stats


#5 in DPS !!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOT !!!!

Thank you Elitist Jerks !!!!! People were like... omg Watch your aggro! and I was like omg..I am trying but I can't !!!! And then they were like... OMG 5th ? and I was like omg omg /flex!

Which brings up a valid point. How does one dump aggro as a ret pally? (besides bubbling or not hitting the mob)
#3133SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Merple
Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
Ok, Last night SSC run, I basically abused my "A" power (I need an A to set Pally Power up for the buffs), and created this group.

Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue
Me (Ret Pally)

Wow Web Stats


#5 in DPS !!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOT !!!!

Thank you Elitist Jerks !!!!! People were like... omg Watch your aggro! and I was like omg..I am trying but I can't !!!! And then they were like... OMG 5th ? and I was like omg omg /flex!

Which brings up a valid point. How does one dump aggro as a ret pally? (besides bubbling or not hitting the mob)
Omg Die/Soulstone!

Honestly, that's pretty much your only aggro dump. If your warrior is having aggro troubles too, you can DI him and use a soulstone to wipe BOTH your aggros, but you wind up losing all your buffs, so it's a tradeoff, and basically only worth it if you've got people in the know ready to rebuff you with Might/Kings/MotW. AND it's gotta be worth losing 2 wipe recovery mechanisms.
#3134SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Blackwater
Well the main reason of all the OMG's was that I usually placed right before the prot warriors because of the group composition. (re: They would put me in a caster group for god sakes, or a group with just the WF, but not the other classes's needed for a ret pally to shine ...Feral Druid, Fury warrior, etc)

So it was just really damn nice to /flex in front of all of the "Oh ret pallys can't do dps" people.

Once again, THANKS ! (Omg I am so jazzed right now)
#3135SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nubs
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Omg Die/Soulstone!

Honestly, that's pretty much your only aggro dump. If your warrior is having aggro troubles too, you can DI him and use a soulstone to wipe BOTH your aggros, but you wind up losing all your buffs, so it's a tradeoff, and basically only worth it if you've got people in the know ready to rebuff you with Might/Kings/MotW. AND it's gotta be worth losing 2 wipe recovery mechanisms.
Fights like RoS is a nice place to soulstone the dps warriors, and even myself was given one while dpsing. We generally don't lose healers in the fight its mainly just dps and in the long run they kill themselves as an aggro wipe to keep dpsing.
#3136SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gevlin
Originally Posted by Noraj View Post
Going through Bellator's, looking for my best upgrades I happened upon an interesting thing. While [Shivering Felspine] is clearly an upgrade for Bloodelves, while I'm just a stubby Dwarf, I was surprised that the spreadsheet showed it as a 5dps increase over Torch of the Damned for Seal of Command usage with my current gear, upping my white DPS by 16, lowering SoCom by 14, Windfury DPS by 3, and keeping Crusader Strike constant.

Common sense dictates that this would be a negative move, even given the high percentage of our damage from normal melee, but I'm curious. Even in the spreadsheet's default "Tier 7" gear set, the Shivering Felspine beats the Torch by 10 DPS for Seal of Command usage. What say the rest of you?
its a pretty close comparison, but just the fact that its 13 ilvls higher and you miss out on the expertise racial that us humans are blessed with lets it edge out TotD and Cat's Edge by a small margin. plus the fact that its got a socket allows you a bit more flexibility in gear choice other places.
#3137SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zechaos
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
For brutallus, What was your dps during that fight? Also what swing time mod is that?

Videos are great btw.
Around 1700dps i think and the swing mod is quartz
#3138SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Moong
Is Hammer of Wrath worth using at all in a raid setting, as long as you're being careful to weave it properly with swing times?
#3139SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gevlin
Originally Posted by Moong View Post
Is Hammer of Wrath worth using at all in a raid setting, as long as you're being careful to weave it properly with swing times?
short answer: no. long answer: no.
#3140SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Antiock
Originally Posted by Moong View Post
Is Hammer of Wrath worth using at all in a raid setting, as long as you're being careful to weave it properly with swing times?
Nope. Unless maybe the boss is running around or you get knocked back out of melee range, but under normal circumstances it is almost always a decrease in dps.
#3141SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Anyone run calcs for [Pendant of the Perilous] vs [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for aldor?

Assuming a rough 1ppm, the 200 AP bonus for aldor is worth = 200/60 * 10 = 33.3 AP.

Making the neck give an effective 97.3AP.

Putting that into rawr seems to edge slightly ahead of [Pendant of the Perilous], though I'm not sure if it's wroth it, being proc based and all and it is a small difference. I'm already exalted.
#3142SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
its a pretty close comparison, but just the fact that its 13 ilvls higher and you miss out on the expertise racial that us humans are blessed with lets it edge out TotD and Cat's Edge by a small margin. plus the fact that its got a socket allows you a bit more flexibility in gear choice other places.
this weapon bothers me... it's a good 17 DPS up in the gear I have now, from the ToeD, and 36 from my current soul cleaver, but it LOOKS like a hunter weapon... I'm unsure how big a deal I should make of it, whether it's worth trying to justify putting myself up to get one (especially the first one?). Which leads to the following question: if i get a ToeD, does that change the motivation to get the felspine? Is it better, at that point, to let a hunter or two grab one first? I don't know that y'all can really answer those questions, but I feel better typing them out.

On an aside, I broke 1500 on gorefiend for the first time last night. <3 my [Shard of Contempt]!!
#3143SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ankler
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Anyone run calcs for [Pendant of the Perilous] vs [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for aldor?

Assuming a rough 1ppm, the 200 AP bonus for aldor is worth = 200/60 * 10 = 33.3 AP.

Making the neck give an effective 97.3AP.

Putting that into rawr seems to edge slightly ahead of [Pendant of the Perilous], though I'm not sure if it's wroth it, being proc based and all and it is a small difference. I'm already exalted.
I'd also be interested in solid comparison as I wait for [Clutch of Demise].

Brutallus is quite an enjoyable fight for melee, though I always ride out tanks on threat so I have to slow down here and there. My DPS sits around 1750 to 1850 and my peek was 1900 on an attempt where I wasn't in danger of pulling aggro the entire attempt. I'm bummed though because we haven't been able to muster up a kill thanks to healing issues.

Expertise is amazing. I picked up out first pair of [Bracers of the Forgotten Conqueror] for the [Lightbringer Bands] and later that night snagged a [Shard of Contempt] and I immediately noticed a significant boost to my damage.
#3144SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1madmardigan83
Goose Vs Exec.

The eternal question. The long and short of my situation is this: My guild is full of fun and fanstatic people. However, the raiding progression pace is not as quick as I would like, personally. But, ya know what, it's ok... because they are fun, good people that make the game enjoyable.

Therefore, I find the best PvE gear available to me at the current moment is S3 gear. I recently hit 1850 this week and picked up a shiny new [Vengeful Gladiator's Bonegrinder]. Now... after having run everything through Rawr, I have come to the conclusion that Mongoose is better for PvE due to my lack of Arm. Pen. (in PvE gear, only the mace has Arm. Pen. In PvP gear I have one or two other items... but still not a LOT)

However, I did end up going with executioner. This was due to mainly that since I am not able to find the 'challenge' that I want in PvE, I do still enjoy the arena and PvP, and that Ex. is better for the arena than Goose. My understanding was that Mongoose does not proc well against pvp targets because of resliance. I also went partially off the math crunching numbers of my brother that rolls a MS warrior (and therefor has additional Arm. Pen with abilities).

So my longwinded question is did I make a correct decision? The money to re-enchant is not a concern, but I am curious as to the PvP implications for comparison between the two.



Also, and slightly off the topic, I always see the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] card being toted as the one of the best PvE trinkets (and I completely understand how/why), but for those people using it. Do you have a problem on many boss fights with not being able to stay on the boss? Is it only good for specific bosses and you switch in other trinkets for ones where you can't hit for long sections of time? Leo the blind and Lurker come to mind. Any thoughts?
#3145SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
If I were more responsible, I would probably switch my DC:C out, for like... supremus and bloodboil. Possibly Ros. Any thoughts on that, actually? This week will be our 2nd week of killing him, er, them, it... whatever. If you've got something else good to put in it's place, it seems reasonable to swap it out for Leo, although I'd leave it on lurker... he's up long enough that the re-stacking doesn't seem like it'd be a big deal.
#3146SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Noraj
Originally Posted by noth View Post
this weapon bothers me... it's a good 17 DPS up in the gear I have now, from the ToeD, and 36 from my current soul cleaver, but it LOOKS like a hunter weapon... I'm unsure how big a deal I should make of it, whether it's worth trying to justify putting myself up to get one (especially the first one?). Which leads to the following question: if i get a ToeD, does that change the motivation to get the felspine? Is it better, at that point, to let a hunter or two grab one first? I don't know that y'all can really answer those questions, but I feel better typing them out.
It's a relatively small upgrade to the Torch from what I saw, and there do exist better weapons, but it is an upgrade. It's the top of the line stat stick for the hunters however. That's what's coloring my own decisions now that the community is backing up that it's not just a quirk, and that the weapon actually is an upgrade.
#3147SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ragnor
It's pretty weird, when I use the spreadsheet and Rawr to model my current gear Torch is about 15dps ahead of Felspine, however when I check again after switching all my pieces of gear to my preferred dream/ideal set Felspine is 15-20 dps ahead of Torch using SoC.

Basically the haste and expertise on 2.4 gear reduce the relative effectiveness of Torch's slow speed, by reducing the % of our damage that comes from SoC and increasing the % that comes from melee/crusader strike.
#3148SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Originally Posted by Noraj View Post
It's a relatively small upgrade to the Torch from what I saw, and there do exist better weapons, but it is an upgrade. It's the top of the line stat stick for the hunters however. That's what's coloring my own decisions now that the community is backing up that it's not just a quirk, and that the weapon actually is an upgrade.
Because I thought about this all day... my Torch dropped tonight. Glad to see someone else's thoughts on the matter, though, thanks Noraj.
#3149SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaegan
I was looking at [Libram of Zeal] and a thought hit me. If you will be opening on a boss by judging crusader, would it make sense to start with the libram equipped? It seems that as long as you can put your dps libram back on before your next judge, you net a free 47 holy damage for the whole fight. Not an extraordinary amount, but not bad for the effort involved.

It seems the real question is whether or not the judgement retains the bonus holy damage once you switch the libram out- it is unclear to me whether it passively applies it to you when you have it equipped and the judgement is up, or if it is merely given to your judgement at the time of judging. Whether or not the refreshed judgement retains the bonus is also a good question. I'm interested to hear if anyone knows for sure how it works.
#3150SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
I believe how it works is that when you CS to refresh the Judgements it actually destroys the old one and instantly reapplies a new one, so you would lose the additional bonus gained from the Libram.

Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
Also, and slightly off the topic, I always see the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] card being toted as the one of the best PvE trinkets (and I completely understand how/why), but for those people using it. Do you have a problem on many boss fights with not being able to stay on the boss? Is it only good for specific bosses and you switch in other trinkets for ones where you can't hit for long sections of time? Leo the blind and Lurker come to mind. Any thoughts?
I use Shard/DC:C on bosses that don't move and will be DPS'd from 100% to 0 without any gimmicks (or at least not any I have any control over). So Gorefiend, Anatheron and Brutallus would all be fights I would be using that combo for.

On bosses where the stacks will most likely fall off (or worse, fall off several times), such as Archimonde, Mother Shahraz and Supremus I would instead be using Beserker's Call/DST for the passive always-on Attack Power and the use/proc to chain with Avenging Wrath.
#3151SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
zetrac
Hi thanks for the contributions to this thread it help a lot to understand things for me that was a healadin

I have read a lot of this thread pages (but it is quite long, and things have changed from patches to patches)

So I will now play a retadin, I have started to get some stuff from rep vendor, craft, .. but it not very good for now, still green boots :s

To sum up what I think, please correct me if i am wrong and add things I miss

I am a BE so prefered seal should be SoB
As I use SoB, no need for Spell Dmg
Use CS a often as possible, judge if it is not preventing me to use CS, reseal with a macro
Use SoC if SoB will kill myself
Use consecration (exorcism if apply) when on CD for the other abilities , while keeping in mind the global cd
Go to the hit cap for bosses
Respec to have that missing point in Imp Sanc Aura

* I have for the moment the libram that up CS damage, the libram from the badge is not for SoB, should I try to get the one from the furnace ?
* Do I need a lot a pieces with INT ? ie what mana pool should i have ?
* Looking at maxdps i see a lot of pieces higly rated that are leather (for ex [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots], i am not displaying T5 and above for now as I wont get to this kind of stuff for now), I have already opted for the leather bracers from the badge vendor, is that a big issue ?

Next upgrades from me Red belt of battle and PVP boots

Thanks

Last edited by zetrac : 04/04/08 at 4:20 AM.
#3152SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
So my longwinded question is did I make a correct decision? The money to re-enchant is not a concern, but I am curious as to the PvP implications for comparison between the two.
Dunno, I always figured 5% extra crit and 5% extra dodge everytime it's up (mongoose) is better than almost no effect (executioner) on plate targets and a somewhat increase in squishiness of already squishy targets (cloth).

Considering a resilience capped player (493 res) would have -12.5% chance to get crit, you're almost cutting the usefulness of his resilience (in crit avoidance) by half, everytime mongoose is up. In addition the defensive buff (5% dodge) is very welcome despite overpowers.


Originally Posted by zetrac View Post
* I have for the moment the libram that up CS damage, the libram from the badge is not for SoB, should I try to get the one from the furnace ?
* Do I need a lot a pieces with INT ? ie what mana pool should i have ?
* Looking at maxdps i see a lot of pieces higly rated that are leather (for ex [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots], i am not displaying T5 and above for now as I wont get to this kind of stuff for now), I have already opted for the leather bracers from the badge vendor, is that a big issue ?

-Yes
-Not really. If you can get INT as an extra it's a bonus, but you shouldn't actively be going for it.
-If you won't get hit (aka not doing 5 mans) leather is fine. It comes down to a personal choice + seeing how much of a difference they will actually make.
#3153SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Just need a quick clarification about mongoose(and haste procs in general) for use in Rawr. Regarding Executioner, I posted a few pages back about the inaccuracies present in averaging the proc due to the nature of armor penetration. For Mongoose, I don't find anything inherently wrong with averaging through the uptime. However a guy was trying to convince me(without any math) that a proc with 200haste for 10s with an uptime of 50% is not the same as 10 passive haste practically.

If anyone thinks thats the case, I would like to see the math behind it.
#3154SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Dunno, I always figured 5% extra crit and 5% extra dodge everytime it's up (mongoose) is better than almost no effect (executioner) on plate targets and a somewhat increase in squishiness of already squishy targets (cloth).

Considering a resilience capped player (493 res) would have -12.5% chance to get crit, you're almost cutting the usefulness of his resilience (in crit avoidance) by half, everytime mongoose is up. In addition the defensive buff (5% dodge) is very welcome despite overpowers.
Using that AC/ArP lookup table I had before:

AC\AP 800
1000 7.44%
2000 6.80%
3000 6.27%
4000 5.82%
5000 5.42%
6000 5.08%
7000 4.77%
8000 4.51%
9000 4.27%
10000 4.05%


840 ArP is +7~% physical damage on 2k AC targets. Unlike crit%, it's not a chance, it's a guaranteed increase in damage; it is also not negated by resilience. (Crit damage is reduced by -25% on that target, so that 5% crit is worth something like +2.5% damage)

It's also +4~% physical damage on 10K AC(2h plate, using my own AC in mixed S1/S3). Still almost as good as 5% crit when you factor in the crit damage reduction of resilience. It is less useful on heavily armored targets, but I wouldn't describe that as "no effect".
#3155SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Well, I was looking more from a practical perspective rather than theorycrafting.

DPS is not really the key for arena, spike damage and correct timing of that spike damage is.


Assume you hit for 1k after armor mitigation:

According to your table, you'll hit a 10k armor target for 1040 with Executioner up.
You'll hit a squishy ~3k armor target (though most S3 geared clothies have a lot more, with class buffs up to 5k) for 1067.


Dunno, I'd rather get a chance to get some bigger crits in and overpower the other teams healer. And on top of that have a slightly hasted attack speed and 5% dodge defensive buff.


I guess it comes down to personal choice and opinion again since it's not a DPS question, but rather what's more useful in practice.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/04/08 at 11:42 AM.
#3156SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Semadin
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Just need a quick clarification about mongoose(and haste procs in general) for use in Rawr. Regarding Executioner, I posted a few pages back about the inaccuracies present in averaging the proc due to the nature of armor penetration. For Mongoose, I don't find anything inherently wrong with averaging through the uptime. However a guy was trying to convince me(without any math) that a proc with 200haste for 10s with an uptime of 50% is not the same as 10 passive haste practically.

If anyone thinks thats the case, I would like to see the math behind it.
It seems like, unless you had haste stacked on other gear, the haste benefit of mongoose is pointless.

Mongoose is 2% haste buff for 15 seconds. If you have a 3.6 spd weapon, this makes it 3.529 for 15 seconds.
The point of haste is to produce more swings, so the only way haste is going to be benefitial is if you net the extra swing while having haste up.

To compare the number of swings you get with and without the mongoose proc:
For 15 seconds, at 3.6 speed = 4.16 swings
For 15 seconds, at 3.529 speed = 4.25 swings
(following the formula at: Haste - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft )

It seems like the only way to benefit from the mongoose speed proc itself, is to have another swing in there during the 15 seconds.

To get this, with a 3.6 speed weapon, I had to add in 300 haste rating.
( 3.6 / (1.02 * (1 + (300/1570))) = 2.9634 and w/o mongoose 3.023)
For 15 seconds, at 2.9634 = 5.06 swings. (w/ mongoose)
For 15 seconds, at 3.023 = 4.96 swings. (w/o mongoose)

Now maybe rounding screws this up - so if I butchered this, please tell :P To sum up, I believe what your friend was trying to explain was that, haste is only benefitial if you net the extra hit, and in most circumstances, the haste you get from mongoose won't do that. To take your example with a 3.6 weapon:

(3.6 / (1 + (200/1570)) = 3.19)
15 seconds at 3.19 = 4.7
15 seconds at 3.6 = 4.16

So no matter how long the fight, each time the proc is up, it won't push you over to another swing. With 10 haste passive the entire time however.
3.6 / (1 + (10/1570)) = 3.577
Obviously over 15 seconds this is nothing, however you _do_ get another swing out of the passive haste eventually (451 seconds when the only haste buff you have is 10 haste rating. Point being, you actually get something out of the passive rating even if it takes a long time, wheras with the mongoose you get nothing in terms of the haste bonus.
#3157SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well, I was looking more from a practical perspective rather than theorycrafting.

DPS is not really the key for arena, spike damage and correct timing of that spike damage is.

Assume you hit for 1k:

According to your table, you'll hit a 10k armor target for 1040 with Executioner up.
You'll hit a squishy ~3k armor target (though most S3 geared clothies have a lot more, with class buffs up to 5k) for 1067.


Dunno, I'd rather get a chance to get some bigger crits in and overpower the other teams healer. And on top of that have a slightly hasted attack speed and 5% dodge defensive buff.


I guess it comes down to personal choice and opinion again since it's not a DPS question, but rather what's more useful in practice.
ArP improves your burst damage, too. Mongoose improves the likelihood of crits (chance to burst), but does not improve the damage of crits. ArP improves the damage of the crits, making your burst, when you do it, bigger.

Also, the difference of hitting for 1k damage and 1070 damage is close to the difference between a S1 2H weapon (513 topend) and a S3 2H weapon (580 topend). You wouldn't tell me upgrading from S1 to S3 would have "little effect" on damage output, so you shouldn't trivialize the damage boost that Executioner adds.


I agree with you that the choice is personal preference. We can't really say which enchant will "definitely" be better, because it depends on the opponent, our own gear + playstyle, and our team. All we can do is compare the numbers and then figure out which one is more appealing to oneself. I'm just filling in the Executioner numbers so others can make a slightly more informed choice.





Originally Posted by Semadin View Post
It seems like, unless you had haste stacked on other gear, the haste benefit of mongoose is pointless.

Mongoose is 2% haste buff for 15 seconds. If you have a 3.6 spd weapon, this makes it 3.529 for 15 seconds.
The point of haste is to produce more swings, so the only way haste is going to be benefitial is if you net the extra swing while having haste up.

To compare the number of swings you get with and without the mongoose proc:
For 15 seconds, at 3.6 speed = 4.16 swings
For 15 seconds, at 3.529 speed = 4.25 swings
(following the formula at: Haste - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft )

It seems like the only way to benefit from the mongoose speed proc itself, is to have another swing in there during the 15 seconds.
How about looking at differently?

Without the haste proc, your swings look like this:
3.6 + 3.6 + 3.6 + 3.6 (= 14.4 seconds for 4 swings)

With the haste proc:
3.529 + 3.529 + 3.259 + 3.529 (= 14.12 seconds for 4 swings)


You're trying to compare non-hasted swings and hasted swing damge output over 14.4 seconds. If you simply look at the time period, though, you see the hasted damage deals its damage faster - 14.4/14.12 => 2% faster, which *is* 2% more auto-attack damage. To see that extra hit, it'd take 50 swings, but it's still there.


Trying to argue that "haste is only good if it adds an extra hit" is like arguing "+hit is only useful if you can see an extra hit". Using that logic, you'd use 0 +hit for PvP, because over (say) 3 swings, you won't see an extra hit "for sure". It's true in a twisted way, but with DPS analysis, we're implicitly looking at the long-term average, and the long-term average is that you do get a damage boost from haste (and hit and crit, and everything else).





On a slight tangent, is the weapon attack speed set when you swing? ie: If you swing with 1 second left on a haste buff, your next swing still occurs as if it were under the haste buff, rather than "resetting" to the normal swing speed when the haste buff fades.
#3158SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Your analysis really depends on how swings and hasted speed works.

When is the calculation for when the next swing should hit done?

Is it everytime you hit the mob? At a certain interval? Instantaneous?
#3159SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Fiola
I personally think it would behave like the first scenario. From a programming standpoint, you figure out the next time a swing would occur and then forget about it (at time X or after, trigger next swing).

The other scenario would mean the computer has to check every instant, asking, "When was the last time you swung? Has [current weapon swing speed] elapsed between last swing and now? If yes, swing." If it behaved like that, it would have to recalculate swing speed very frequently, which seems like a waste since swing speed doesn't change often.


Proving it works that way would be tough though, since there's latency, and swing speeds are relatively fast. Maybe devise a test using bubble? DS doubles time between swings - if you swing with 1 second left on bubble, when does your next swing occur? You should be able to click it off for the same effect.


EDIT:
I have a 3.6 AS weapon, smacked a few mobs outside Shatt.

6:13> Swing (time 0)
6:15> gain DS, Forbearance
6:19> swing (6 seconds later)
6:26> swing (7 seconds later)
6:27> DS fades
6:30> swing (4 seconds later)

11:57> swing (time 0)
12:00> DS
12:02> swing (5 seconds)
12:09> swing (7 seconds, expect 7.2)
12:12> DS fades
12:14> swing (5 seconds)

I think it recalculates your swing speed when you gain/lose speed buffs. They probably have some countdown variable that they modify with haste buffs. So it's actually the "fair" solution - you get the "partial swings". (Assuming that +haste buffs work like the DS -haste buff)


Now I wanna test something else... Do we get 100% SoC proc chance while in bubble? So far, every swing I've seen while doing this test with SoC active has resulted in a SoC proc.


EDIT x2:
Just saw a SOC non proc, but now I remember that to get 100% proc chance, you need a 60/7 = 8.5 AS weapon. The slowest 70 weapon out there is 3.8, which would give us a 7.6 AS under DS, so 100% is impossible.

Still, 7.2/8.5 = 85~%, so judging by the frequency of SoC procs, -haste does *seem to* increase proc chance. DS can be an offensive tool. = P (If you're about to swing and use DS, you can almost guarantee a SoC proc)

Last edited by Fiola : 04/04/08 at 12:33 PM.
#3160SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Semadin
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
On a slight tangent, is the weapon attack speed set when you swing? ie: If you swing with 1 second left on a haste buff, your next swing still occurs as if it were under the haste buff, rather than "resetting" to the normal swing speed when the haste buff fades.
I was pondering that but couldn't dig up any details regarding this.

And I see your point on the swing speed there. If each hasted attack happens sooner, even if you don't get an extra attack out of it then, all subsequent consecutive attacks will happen earlier than they would have had you not had that block of extra speed - so eventually you do you get that extra swing. Either way it clearly increases your dps for that portion of time.
#3161SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I dont know if its just me, but I think there is a bug with the [Shard of Contempt]

I was swinging against a regular mob when it procced, and I think the proc resets your swing timer. Can anyone else verify this?
Im bumping this hoping someone else has seen it. I was farming for Fel Armaments last night and the trinket would proc, but I would lose a swing.
#3162SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
I manually went and checked my logs, and I'm not losing a swing/having the swing timer reset when I gain Heroism from Shard of Contempt. The time between consecutive swings between which shard proc'ed is as expected.
#3163SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shalas
Originally Posted by Semadin View Post
Mongoose is 2% haste buff for 15 seconds. If you have a 3.6 spd weapon, this makes it 3.529

for 15 seconds. The point of haste is to produce more swings, so the only way haste is going to be benefitial is if

you net the extra swing while having haste up.
This is a fairly common fallacy which is completely false for two reasons:
1) When mongoose wears off, your next swing isn't magically delayed to make it occur when it would have if mongoose

had never procced. If you have a 4.0 speed weapon, your swing times will look like this:
1 0.0
2 4.0 (mongoose procs)
3 7.92
4 11.84
5 15.76
6 19.68
7 23.68
8 27.68

If mongoose had never procced, swing 8 would have happened after 28 seconds (.32 seconds later). After 12.5

mongoose procs, you'll have an "extra" swing.

2) The concept of an "extra swing" is nearly meaningless. In the example above, after 14 seconds you'd have made the same number of swings if mongoose hadn't procced, but what makes your damage after 14 seconds special compared to your damage after 11.9 seconds? On average, your damage done over the course of a mongoose proc is 2% higher than it would have been, and barring optimization for a specific fight with short-fixed length phases (which are incredibly rare), that's all that matters.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
On a slight tangent, is the weapon attack speed set when you swing? ie: If you swing with 1 second left on a haste buff, your next swing still occurs as if it were under the haste buff, rather than "resetting" to the normal swing speed when the haste buff fades.
Midswing Flurry procs (from the other hand or an instant) appear to behave in a manner similar to parry haste -- depending on the time left, either the time left before the swing is reduced by the haste amount or nothing happens until the next swing. Midswing flurry fades apply the full haste amount to any swings in process, but that may simply be due to that flurry fading is a mess.
#3164SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Actually Fiola, they could trigger an event "haste effect switch" or some such, and apply the effect instantly only when a haste event starts/finishes. Depends on the language though... not all languages support events, but the vast majority found in games (at least, due to their complexity I would image) do.
#3165SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Actually Fiola, they could trigger an event "haste effect switch" or some such, and apply the effect instantly only when a haste event starts/finishes. Depends on the language though... not all languages support events, but the vast majority found in games (at least, due to their complexity I would image) do.
I wasn't thinking hard enough about the implementation. (I'm not a CS major either) After testing the mechanic with DS and thinking about it, it's a lot easier to track than I thought it'd be.

(create a countdown_var = 36000; countdown_var -= 10 every ms, modified by haste variables; set swing_ready_flag = 1 when countdown_var hits 0; reset countdown_var on swing event)


The trials I ran suggest that Blizzard's system track portions of a swing.

ie: halfway through a 3.6 AS weapon swing, I bubble. The system seems to record that I'm halfway through a swing (1.8 seconds), but the remainder of the swing (another 1.8 seconds) is subject to the haste penalty, and takes 3.6 seconds. Total swing time: 1.8 + 3.6 = 5.4 seconds, which matches the 5~6 second swing I saw in those numbers.


It's interesting, because it suggests you get *exactly* X seconds of bonus haste, no more and no less. If the haste affects 4.5 swings, you get the haste bonus for that .5 of a swing.

Contrast that to % damage or AP buffs, which seem to affect only the swings that land, allowing you to get an "effective buff time" that is more or less than the actual buff time.
#3166SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
a quick question, i was told by a friend that CS resets my swing timer is this true?
#3167SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Theras
No, your friend is super wrong.
#3168SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 hypetech
Originally Posted by CHaoTiCTeX View Post
a quick question, i was told by a friend that CS resets my swing timer is this true?
Only abilities with a cast time should reset your swing timer. Best thing for you to do would be to get a swing timer and test it out for yourself.
#3169SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
angelox
Is there somewhere on this topic that I can check (updated for 2.4) the benefits of 3% crit buff for the raid and the 2% damage gain for the party? Trying to see if getting one in for SP is really worth it vs bringing another dps. Going to take a very long time to traul though 100pages of this ^^

Last edited by angelox : 04/05/08 at 7:49 AM.
#3170SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Semadin
Originally Posted by angelox View Post
Is there somewhere on this topic that I can check (updated for 2.4) the benefits of 3% crit buff for the raid and the 2% damage gain for the party? Trying to see if getting one in for SP is really worth it vs bringing another dps. Going to take a very long time to traul though 100pages of this ^^
Cromfel.Battlefield.fi Forums-viewtopic-Spreadsheet to Calculate Benefit from Sanctified Crusader

Spreadsheet for calculating the benefit of the sanctified crusader.
#3171SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Vada
From what I am hearing in sunwell the DPS boost from keeping wisdom judged on bosses like brutallus is changing the minds of many guilds. Is it a rumor still that Nihilium is using a ret paladin in sunwell now?

Top Paladins are doing 1900'ish DPS by themselves and providing raids with 3% crit and alot more mana on top of it.
#3172SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rizso
Originally Posted by Vada View Post
From what I am hearing in sunwell the DPS boost from keeping wisdom judged on bosses like brutallus is changing the minds of many guilds. Is it a rumor still that Nihilium is using a ret paladin in sunwell now?

Top Paladins are doing 1900'ish DPS by themselves and providing raids with 3% crit and alot more mana on top of it.
Nihilium are using retri pala now. Judgement of wisdom is mostly so powerful that shadowpriests after the first gets replaced for it.
#3173SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samurai
Originally Posted by Rizso View Post
Nihilium are using retri pala now. Judgement of wisdom is mostly so powerful that shadowpriests after the first gets replaced for it.
Is it really that powerful?

At least for us, the class' that are first priority for shadow priests are mages/healers and then probably warlocks. Checking a couple of the top WWS From brutallus I see mages gaining no more than 4000 mana from JoW compared to 22000+ from a shadow priest and obviously JoW is giving nothing to the healers.

Granted it gives hunters/melee shamans a massive boost in mana, but they should not be having great mana problems and never get a shadow priest anyway.

I'm not sayings JoW is bad, but its more of a nice little bonus as opposed to something that should be described as 'so powerful'

Having said that we do use a ret pala whenever possible
#3174SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Osse
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Granted it gives hunters/melee shamans a massive boost in mana, but they should not be having great mana problems and never get a shadow priest anyway.
You are so wrong.
#3175SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rizso
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Is it really that powerful?

At least for us, the class' that are first priority for shadow priests are mages/healers and then probably warlocks. Checking a couple of the top WWS From brutallus I see mages gaining no more than 4000 mana from JoW compared to 22000+ from a shadow priest and obviously JoW is giving nothing to the healers.

Granted it gives hunters/melee shamans a massive boost in mana, but they should not be having great mana problems and never get a shadow priest anyway.

I'm not sayings JoW is bad, but its more of a nice little bonus as opposed to something that should be described as 'so powerful'

Having said that we do use a ret pala whenever possible
You are correct that it doesnt give mages locks that much mana compared to shadow priest gives them, but i doubt thoes locks and mages will ever have more then 1 shadow priest in his/her group. So thoes mages gets both benefits from shadow priest and jow. Hunters gain so much mana from it that they probly wont need any mana pots and instead can use haste pots instead.
#3176SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Granted it gives hunters/melee shamans a massive boost in mana, but they should not be having great mana problems and never get a shadow priest anyway.

I'm not sayings JoW is bad, but its more of a nice little bonus as opposed to something that should be described as 'so powerful'
Judgement of Wisdom should be giving hunters upwards of 15,000 mana on Brutallus. Even if Mages are only getting about 2 Mana pots worth, that's still 2 extra Destruction Potions.
A Shadowpriest gives ~22,000 mana to 5 people. Looking at a random WWS, JoW gives 106,856 over 10 people.
#3177SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
From the world of raids "2.4 Known Issues List":

• Crusader Strike is adversely affected by Seal of the Crusader.

Anyone know that's all about?
#3178SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Since it says Seal of the Crusader and not JotC I would assume it has something to do with the AP from SotC not affecting the damage of CS or something along those lines. My question is "who cares?" since no one has actually used SotC seriously since way back before they "fixed" it.
#3179SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
I hope that's the case.
#3180SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Yep, just tested it.

It seems the part of SotC that reduces the weapon damage to maintain DPS is also reducing the damage done by CS. My normal CS was hitting for about 850, popped SotC and it fell to 700.
#3181SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
grayrest
Not really sure how this is a new issue, it's been doing that as long as I've been a ret paladin (since 2.3). I notice because I try to get JotC on every trash mob. Sometimes I screw up my judgement timing on target switches and CS with crusader up, cursing at myself for losing a couple hundred damage. It's very noticeable on crits.

Last edited by grayrest : 04/05/08 at 4:13 PM.
#3182SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
*shrug*

It could be that (like me) they've never had anyone using SotC until a fluke one day last week, and they thought "oh crap, maybe we should fix this".
#3183SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Heh. There was a brief patch after 1.9 where SotC reduced weapon speed but not the base weapon damage, so SotC added 40% weapon DPS + AP bonus instead of just AP bonus. (At release, I think it was +AP bonus and 40% haste?)

That change was later fixed and SotC only added AP bonus. Seems their fix made it so that SotC reduced your base weapon damage, which is why SotC affects CS damage.


It'd be kinda interesting if they fix SotC + CS. Due to its interaction with CS damage, having SotC up when swinging is a bad idea - I'm pretty sure it's a loss in damage, which means that having no seal active can be preferable to using SotC.. which is pretty broken.
#3184SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ragnor
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Im bumping this hoping someone else has seen it. I was farming for Fel Armaments last night and the trinket would proc, but I would lose a swing.
Animation bug, check the combat log you will see the correct number of swings.
#3185SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pyralissa
I just assumed that Seal of the Crusader's natural reduction in damage per swing was affecting Crusader Strike as intended. The only time I cared about it was in clearing Aran's trash in Karazhan, since the mana worms are immune to Command damage.
#3186SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
I discovered just now that ZJ Phase 3 doesn't zap you anymore for judgement refresh by auto-attack. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it.
#3187SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Deathjem
executioner or mongoose ?

I have both the World Breaker and the "skill herald".

Whats the best enchant for PVE executioner or mongoose ?
(useing mongoose on my world breaker at the moment.)

I've seen this question asked before but there was no reply.
thanks
#3188SourcePosted on <=2.0.0orcsgotbooty
Originally Posted by Deathjem View Post
I have both the World Breaker and the "skill herald".

Whats the best enchant for PVE executioner or mongoose ?
(useing mongoose on my world breaker at the moment.)

I've seen this question asked before but there was no reply.
thanks
No offense, but it wasn't answered because there is a spreadsheet to answer questions like this. There was also multiple pages of Mongoose/Executioner math/discussion.
#3189SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alexthor
Hi Guys,

Now I've been seeing all these amazing dps numbers being put up and I'm really keen to get anywhere near that. My current gear is SSC/TK level and my dps is about 700+ on most boss other than demons with just Kings and Imp might.

Here is the link to my armory. Would appreciate any gearing, talent, playstyle advice that you vets can give.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Being human, I use SoC. Rank 1 if no JoW is put up and Rank 5 if it is. Seldom use cons due to limited mana and I've been chugging mana pots.

I am also considering replacing my Lionheart Executioner with the executioner enchant with the new badge axe reward and slapping a mongoose on it. Any thoughts on that?
#3190SourcePosted on <=2.0.0grayrest
Originally Posted by Alexthor View Post
Now I've been seeing all these amazing dps numbers being put up and I'm really keen to get anywhere near that. My current gear is SSC/TK level and my dps is about 700+ on most boss other than demons with just Kings and Imp might.
The difference is group buffs. You and I are around the same level in terms of gear (except I've gotten 2 drops in 5 months of raiding, stupid RNG). I do just shy of 700 with just Kings+might and a fairly consistent 1100 dps simply by adding an enh shaman, JoW, full sunder stack, and a relentless assault. If that number looks strangely high, it's for a few reasons:

First, SoB is better. Not much I can do about that except say that it really shouldn't be one sided. Silver lining: SoC procs JoW but SoB doesn't.

Second is talents. That divine intellect isn't doing much for you, just giving you a slightly larger tiny mana pool. You want to put all those points into the efficiency talents, a full 3/3 sanctified judgement, 4/5 benediction (if you're skipping PoJ, 2/5 otherwise), and 1/3 vindication. The last one is for JoW returns, not for the debuff. It turns out that the vindication proc will trigger JoW on immune mobs, which does a good bit to help out your mana. The efficiency talents help you get more out of your JoW and pots and are a much better value in the long run.

Third is the buffs. An enh shaman is going to give you Mana Spring, SoE, UR, and most importantly WF. Much has been said about WF and it basically makes or breaks ret dps. You need a shaman (any shaman) dropping WF for your dps to be acceptable. The only thing I'll add is that the combination of the extra WF JoW procs and the mana spring lets me easily maintain a full judge/r1 consecrate cycle while I generally can't maintain consecrate without it and if I'm taking raid damage, that can be bumped up to r3 or r4. The 400AP or so from SoE+UR doesn't hurt either.

To answer your weapon question, you should go for the axe. It's a 70-100 dps upgrade for me. It'll be a bit lower for you, but still better than anything else you'll have available for a while. Mongoose is better unless your group is doing all the armor debuffs (including FF and CoR) on a mob, and then they're comparable. Get the spreadsheet or download rawr to answer questions like these. Gearing questions will normally not be answered.

Finally, link your armory in your EJ profile so we don't have to manually dig it up. ;]

Last edited by grayrest : Yesterday at 6:27 AM.
#3191SourcePosted on <=2.0.0warlockgod
Anyone else noticed Vindication not addind to darkmoon card crusade stacks recently? I just happened to noticed it the other night on a trash mob, this might be because there were no judgements up on the mob and it has always been this way, or maybe vindication immune messages have stopped adding to crusade card stacks and possibly JoW procs aswell. Sadly my memory is pretty crap and forgot to test it out on a boss, will be raiding again tonight so will have a proper look.
#3192SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Deathjem
Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty View Post
No offense, but it wasn't answered because there is a spreadsheet to answer questions like this. There was also multiple pages of Mongoose/Executioner math/discussion.
prove it ! link the pages please.

And the question is still not answered. Why isnt this on the first page (spread sheets and such) ?
I love all the thoughts here but there are many that seem to be simply ignored and left to die.

or just type 3 words "___ is better".

Thanks
#3193SourcePosted on <=2.0.0orcsgotbooty
Originally Posted by Deathjem View Post
prove it ! link the pages please.

And the question is still not answered. Why isnt this on the first page (spread sheets and such) ?
I love all the thoughts here but there are many that seem to be simply ignored and left to die.

or just type 3 words "___ is better".

Thanks

Asking for things to be handed to you when you won't even use the spreadsheet doesn't work well on these forums, may I suggest the Paladin forums on the official wow site?

The spreadsheet is on the very first page of this thread....
#3194SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Buliwyf
In addition, the discussion about Mongoose and Executioner is still open to debate (all though some would like it closed) and the general consensus is that it's down to personal preference. So if you want to know what suits you, go read.
#3195SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Deathjem
so there is no answer ? ah i see why you want this question to go away.

Fair enough. From what i understand there is too much unknown to give an absolute result that covers all encounters.

I have this idea that you would only go with Executioner IF you have a rather large amount of armour avoidance in your gear. So it can stack. Mongoose would otherwise be the better choice.

Last edited by Deathjem : Yesterday at 11:43 AM.
#3196SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Theras
It's pretty hard to tell you which enchant is better under different situations, because of the way the two scale at different levels of gear. For example, in Tier 4 level gear you'd be pretty much insane to pick Executioner, but in Sunwell gear Executioner gets very appealing for 7700 armor bosses and lower.

For example, with my current gear (and doing some crude napkin math), I calculated the point of inflection between Executioner and Mongoose to be when my target reaches 2588 armor without the proc up. What the means in terms of boss encounters is as follows:
  • For bosses with 6200 armor (Karathress, Vashj, Solarian, Kael'thas, everything in Hyjal, Gorefiend, Shahraz, and Illidari Council), Executioner is always the best weapon enchant.
  • For bosses with 8800 armor (Void Reaver, Brutallus, possibly some other Sunwell bosses) I would need 2202 armor penetration (1802 if you have a Rogue doing Improved Expose Armor) for Executioner to be better than Mongoose. This is pretty much impossible to do in an optimal gear setup.
  • For bosses with 7700 armor (everything else) I would need 1102 (702 with iEA) armor penetration for Executioner to surpass Mongoose, which is actually pretty doable.

Now, this changes with Sunwell gear. In an optimal Sunwell gear setup the point of Executioner-Mongoose point of inflection is closer to 3244 target armor. That means you need only 446 armor penetration on 7700 armor bosses for it to be better, which isn't only doable, it's more than ideal. It's still going to be inferior on bosses like Brutallus without some sub-optimal gear shuffling, but that's pretty promising.

Now I only wish we could find a way to accurately model Executioner on the spreadsheets, and in Rawr.


Caveat: Calculations are for Alliance. YMMV for the Master Race.
#3197SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
I read at a couple of places(rogue dps thread, brutallus thread) that Brutallus may be 7700 armor instead of 8800. That might change the gear preferences slightly.

E: I added Shattered Sun Pendant of Might to Rawr(for next release) and both versions turn out better than anything(if you're hit capped) except Clutch of Demise and the BoP JC neck. Choker of Endless Nightmares is probably still preferable because of the new gear lacking hit.

Last edited by Anarkii : Yesterday at 3:43 PM.
#3198SourcePosted on <=2.0.0DarKNecross
Yeah, it was just the whole "deep breath" mentality that caused people to think it was 8800. As for Exec/Goose,
Deathjem, it's been discussed to death, and just because you have an insight that's already been given plenty of times, and you're to stubborn to read the thread to find it, does not warrant the same conversation to start again. It's more convenient to you, and less convenient to everyone else.
#3199SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Wrathblood
Am I on crack or is the Scryer version of the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might actually pretty darn good (especially for a level 115 (?) item) for ret dps?

I did a smidge of testing and it suggested that the proc rate is consistent with the 15% per hit/ 45 second cooldown confirmed to be on the other pendant. That suggests the proc is worth an extra 5 or so dps with anything a ret pally is going to use (and up to 7 or so for a rogue or anyone else getting a lot of attacks). I'd previously been using the Vindicator's neck, and while losing the Stamina and Resilience is bad for survivability, the dps gap seems pretty significant.
#3200SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Deathjem
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Yeah, it was just the whole "deep breath" mentality that caused people to think it was 8800. As for Exec/Goose,
Deathjem, it's been discussed to death, and just because you have an insight that's already been given plenty of times, and you're to stubborn to read the thread to find it, does not warrant the same conversation to start again. It's more convenient to you, and less convenient to everyone else.
No no, I'm very happy with the answers and Theras summery is awsome.
Its just a shame that all the new dps badge gear has haste instead of armor penetration. Not so good for the alliance side of things. Even using the orb from Mages Terrace doesnt give me seal of blood

Do you think the "blood knights" ability "seal of wrath" is WOTLK L80 future ret talent ?
#3201SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1eMagdAeH
Yeah, alliance paladins do get the shaft with that at the moment. I imagine they'll rebalance that some time in the future...although I'm sure it will be distant future knowing Blizzard.

As for the Seal of Wrath we can only hope!!

(P.S. I'm showing as a druid because I had to switch to a Moonkin to fill a gap...I am and always will be a paladin at heart)
#3202SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by warlockgod View Post
Anyone else noticed Vindication not addind to darkmoon card crusade stacks recently?
Yes, and I've also noticed it no longer procs JoW. Probably gonna drop it from my spec soon, especially considering I don't wear the darkmoon card anymore.
#3203SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Noraj
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Yes, and I've also noticed it no longer procs JoW. Probably gonna drop it from my spec soon, especially considering I don't wear the darkmoon card anymore.
Can you confirm this? If so, please do. It will change the way a lot of people spec, but pure speculation of the "it doesn't seem to" variety isn't what we need, not that that's what you're providing.
#3204SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Well Noraj we never actually confirmed that Vindication procced JoW to begin with. All we had were some WWS reports where the number of JoW procs seemed to be higher than normal, and by process of elimination it was thought to be Vindication.

We have yet to have any conclusive test on a boss level immune mob for either side.
#3205SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nubs
Just throwing out an idea for some people but I have noticed through SCT a JoW proc icon whenever I judge any spell, even if the target doesn't have JoW on it. I just attributed this to Sanctified Judgment, so it could be that in the wws reports Sanctified Judgment's mana return is being listed as a JoW proc.

Mind you this is a shot in the dark but without anyone having a solid answer an idea is an idea at this point.
#3206SourcePosted on <=2.0.0grayrest
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Well Noraj we never actually confirmed that Vindication procced JoW to begin with. All we had were some WWS reports where the number of JoW procs seemed to be higher than normal, and by process of elimination it was thought to be Vindication.
Well something is causing extra JoW procs. The best example I've seen is post 2838 in this thread, but I regularly see pairs of JoW pop up in my SCT from autoattacks and triples when autoattack coincides with a CS. That said, testing on the blasted lands mob hasn't produced unexpected procs and last I heard Theras was unable to find a mob suitable for conclusive testing but was willing to let it slide due to posting multiple Gorefiend parses with 70-80% JoW procs.

And no, the sanctified judgements aren't being counted as JoW procs in those parses. SCT just uses the S/JoW icon for them.
#3207SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Inconnunom
Hi, long time-reader. Haven't had much to contribute much.

I leveled a pally to heal as a change of pace (Raiding 2+ years as a hunter :P). Then took ret when 2.3 hit, I forced my way into ssc when I deemed myself geared enough. (ive followed this forum sinec 2 weeks after 2.3 hit lol). I shocked the hell out of my guild leader with 900+ dps my first time there. Now adays i regularly fluctuate 1100 and 1300 depending on buffs. I guess this is my thanks to everyone's hard work.

ANYHOO

so I dunno if anyone else HAS but
/castsequence reset=combat/6 Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

This is based off of the 9 second judgement cycle. Normally I would Put on JoC/JoW or whatever and weave excercism and whichever rank consecrating during the gaps. Obviously I'm horde, feel free to subsitute Seal of Command as alliance.

A big note to the wise the reset=combat/6 refers to when the macro resets (yea yea obviously) (having a a longer reset timer means you are able to interweave more spells in between). As weel ass there are times when the cycle is interupted, Iw oudl jeep you standard judgement/reseal macro and cursader strike handy when that happens.

Well i hope this pays back a little what I've taken.
#3208SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Nubs View Post
Just throwing out an idea for some people but I have noticed through SCT a JoW proc icon whenever I judge any spell, even if the target doesn't have JoW on it. I just attributed this to Sanctified Judgment, so it could be that in the wws reports Sanctified Judgment's mana return is being listed as a JoW proc.

Mind you this is a shot in the dark but without anyone having a solid answer an idea is an idea at this point.
Go into your SCT settings, enable spell names. The icon is the same, but it's listed as "Sanctified Judgement" when that procs.
#3209SourcePosted on <=2.0.0ariesz
Anyone know how much mana back or mp5 the t6 two piece is worth? I want to enter it into Bellator's spread sheet and im not sure what to enter. I heard of accounts on brutallus where people got near 3000 mana back from the two piece so over 6 minutes that would be roughly 40mp5. Anyone got any near to exact answers?

Another question, is it better to mana pot on cooldown or get gear that is more mana effective i.e int on the pieces two piece t6 bonus and haste pot on cd as well as in conjunction with AW.

Im having trouble seeing the differences on the spreadsheet as AW isn't an option and haste potting on cooldown is also not an option. Would i be better off maxing my time lasting in the fight on mana so i can haste pot or max my dps and just mana pot on cooldown?

This is all for brutallus by the way.

Last edited by ariesz : Yesterday at 3:51 AM.
#3210SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Finally, the retribution module for Rawr is public
Rawr - Release: Rawr b13

Any new versions will be posted there, so you can bookmark it if you like. Since this is the first public release, there might be some integration-related bugs or even module-specific bugs. You can do any of the following to report issues :
1. If you have a codeplex account(or want to create one), post the issue here : Rawr - Issue Tracker
2. Post the problem in the Rawr thread : Rawr Model Development
3. If it's a retribution model specific issue or feature request, you can also PM it to me here.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, from the retribution perspective, b13 was mostly about getting it ready for a public release. All the feature requests you guys had asked me for are still on the agenda, and anything not implemented(mostly buff-related stuff that Avitus asked me about) will get done soon.

For those who had been waiting for a public release and didn't feel like trying the non-public debug builds I had posted earlier, here's the brief overview :

Rawr's DPS model is loosely taken from Bellator's spreadsheet. Wherever I thought I could represent something more accurately, I did so. It's a tool to let you accurately compare gear and get a ballpark estimate of the absolute DPS you can do with selected gear/gem/enchant/buff/debuff etc combinations.

The item database is integrated with the armory, so updating items that get changed is straightforward. You can import your character from the armory to get a working base after which you can select gear, enchants, buffs, debuffs, skill usage, talents and other options to easily monitor the DPS output. Ease of Comparison is a big asset here, and you can graphically compare enchants, items, buffs, debuffs and even stats. There's also a Stat Graph specific to the Ret module where you can view the DPS increase per itemization point spent in each stat assuming your selected gear/buffs as a baseline.

For those who have used Rawr earlier, the Optimizer is the main new addition you can look forward to in b13. It lets you select the gear you have available, and then picks the best combination of gear looking through all your available gear.

I'll probably be busy fixing bugs in the next days!
#3211SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
@Ariesz

The commonly accepted number is about 30mp5 for 2pcT6. I'll probably end up getting the shoulders for 2pc(Shoulders+Pants, Gurtogg hasnt dropped the legs even once). With Vindication no longer proccing JoW reportedly(I'm pretty sure it used to, though I dont have any proof) the regen from 2pcT6 may become more important. Regarding haste vs mana pots, it was discussed a couple of pages back and while for alliance fel mana pots are clearly superior, as a Belf, you might be better off with haste pots.
#3212SourcePosted on <=2.0.0warlockgod
About this new vindication thing, managed to remember to look out for it on a boss yesterday, and I was definatly getting crusade stacks from it when there was another judgment up, unless there is another way I was getting 2 stacks instantly from melee + SoC. I asked the holy pally to hold off for a while with judgeing on another try and didn't get the stacks that time. I'm not quite sure what this means but it looks like the vindication spell itself isn't giving crusade stacks but something else related to having judgements on the mob. If someone else could do a similar test just to make sure I'm not mising something major, that would be great.

Last edited by warlockgod : Yesterday at 9:06 AM.
#3213SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sorry
Judging from some ZA WWSs from before and after patch 2.4 there is no noticable difference in returns from JoW with 1/3 Vindication. I'll leave the point out of Vindication on my next respec and test again.

And thank you for Rawr, it's really a nice tool. One thing I noticed is that after loading a profile from the armory it always defaults to SoB, maybe you could change that for alliance races. Slightly heartbreaking to have to set it to SoC every time and see all the numbers go down.
#3214SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kris
Anarkii, can you or some other Rawr developer fix the duplicating of items when updating from armory? Quite annoying to see some items 5 times already. Also, are you planning to include set bonuses in the calculations. For example, T4 2 piece bonus is definitely not included atm.

Last edited by Kris : Yesterday at 10:05 AM.
#3215SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
Anyone know how much mana back or mp5 the t6 two piece is worth? I want to enter it into Bellator's spread sheet and im not sure what to enter. I heard of accounts on brutallus where people got near 3000 mana back from the two piece so over 6 minutes that would be roughly 40mp5. Anyone got any near to exact answers?
It actually is already in the spreadsheet. Whenever you equip 2 items of lightbringer it will automatically calculate the gain in mp5. It's roughly 35mp5 according to the spreadsheet and I believe it takes into account extra hits from WF etc.


Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
Another question, is it better to mana pot on cooldown or get gear that is more mana effective i.e int on the pieces two piece t6 bonus and haste pot on cd as well as in conjunction with AW.
2 piece t6 is a must, but it's better than ever to get since you can just get the T6 wrist/belt which are best in game regardless of set bonus.

Other than that, I suggest mana pot on CD and full out DPS gear. Your mileage will vary with Haste pots, some suggest alliance = mana pots, horde = haste pots, but it really depends on your play style.


Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
Im having trouble seeing the differences on the spreadsheet as AW isn't an option and haste potting on cooldown is also not an option. Would i be better off maxing my time lasting in the fight on mana so i can haste pot or max my dps and just mana pot on cooldown?
Are you sure you're using the right spreadsheet? The latest one is v.34, available here: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

AW is automatically modeled in, but potting is included in the lower section of the first page.
#3216SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Galick
I just started using the Rawr mod for the first time and with my gear, it shows me below 1k dps on a 7700 armor mob. The only time I don't break 1k is if I have to run around a lot or it's a fight like BB where I just have to hold back. I even break 1k dps on Mother in shadow gear so I'm thinking that there is something wrong with the Rawr program. I do like the UI for it though.
#3217SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Galick
Nevermind, I didn't have any talent points placed lewl. There's the other 400 dps I was missing haha.
#3218SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Sorry, there were several bugs in b13. I just released b13.1, please give that a try (nothing ret specific, but should solve the optimizer crashes). Rawr - Release: Rawr b13.1
#3219SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Anarkii, can you or some other Rawr developer fix the duplicating of items when updating from armory? Quite annoying to see some items 5 times already.
Responding over on the Rawr dev thread, so as not to sidetrack your ret thread... Rawr Model Development
#3220SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mearis
Originally Posted by Rizso View Post
You are correct that it doesnt give mages locks that much mana compared to shadow priest gives them, but i doubt thoes locks and mages will ever have more then 1 shadow priest in his/her group. So thoes mages gets both benefits from shadow priest and jow. Hunters gain so much mana from it that they probly wont need any mana pots and instead can use haste pots instead.
Assuming you raid with 3 mages/3 warlocks, the warlocks benefit from a shadowpriest a lot more than you think. Consider that a shadowpriest adds at least ~250 DPS per warlock through mana returns, you are looking at a shadowpriest having to do only 1400 DPS or so to be worth it more than a 4th warlock.
#3221SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
Assuming you raid with 3 mages/3 warlocks, the warlocks benefit from a shadowpriest a lot more than you think. Consider that a shadowpriest adds at least ~250 DPS per warlock through mana returns, you are looking at a shadowpriest having to do only 1400 DPS or so to be worth it more than a 4th warlock.
Maybe the first shadow priest will bring that much additional DPS because of misery and shadow weaving, but I highly doubt that a single VT will give 250 DPS (our warlocks say they lose about 100 from tapping, maybe we're just weird). Regardless, a spriest will return more mana to the people in the group but JoW will return more to the raid. Of course, why wouldn't you want both?

I also hit exalted with SSO last night and have been messing around with the neck (scryers). So far I can confirm it uses melee crit, and I think melee hit (or is unresistable). I haven't had a chance to raid wit it yet, but I'll try it out on our Bear run tonight and get back to you.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 2:29 PM.
#3222SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lyconn
Hey guys I've been reading this forum for weeks now and have gotten a lot of great input from it and have managed to maximize my dps regardless of my available gear. Just wanted to say thanks for all the time you guys put into your research and it is not unappreciated.

One thing that has come to mind regarding the new SSO neck pieces. The obvious melee dps neckpiece has been included in bellator's spreadsheet, as well as Rawr, but I haven't seen much mention to the "tanking" neck piece with expertise on it. Now I haven't reached exalted yet so I haven't been able to personally test them, but do they have the same proc effect? Also, considering they aren't in the gearsets for the spreadsheet or Rawr, has anyone run any dps comparisons to the two? I don't have access to top end gear so finding good pieces with expertise is a little more difficult and was just wondering if the expertise on the "tanking" neck would be more worth it than the dps neck piece.

Thanks!
#3223SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
So, I'm confused. Rawr says that the Libram of Avengement is the better libram. Is this due to the judgement refreshing bug or is this the truly better libram?

edit: If you refresh these librams in Rawr, the Divine Judgement comes out on top.

Last edited by Saltycracker : Yesterday at 5:33 PM.
#3224SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mind
Regarding judgement of wisdom...

I'm really having trouble keeping it up at Brutallus. It's not because I miss or boss dodges. It simply goes away. That's pretty anoying cause in that fight I can't ask holy palas to refresh it.
Tho, sometimes it lasts much time, there are others that lasts 10/20sec...

Any tip?
#3225SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Snowy
Originally Posted by Mind View Post
Regarding judgement of wisdom...

I'm really having trouble keeping it up at Brutallus. It's not because I miss or boss dodges. It simply goes away. That's pretty anoying cause in that fight I can't ask holy palas to refresh it.
Tho, sometimes it lasts much time, there are others that lasts 10/20sec...

Any tip?
You're running into the 40 debuff limit. Get your rogues to change to Instant Poison from Deadly Poison for one example, and eliminate any truly unnecessary debuffs.
#3226SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zupal
Originally Posted by Lyconn View Post
One thing that has come to mind regarding the new SSO neck pieces. The obvious melee dps neckpiece has been included in bellator's spreadsheet, as well as Rawr, but I haven't seen much mention to the "tanking" neck piece with expertise on it. Now I haven't reached exalted yet so I haven't been able to personally test them, but do they have the same proc effect? Also, considering they aren't in the gearsets for the spreadsheet or Rawr, has anyone run any dps comparisons to the two? I don't have access to top end gear so finding good pieces with expertise is a little more difficult and was just wondering if the expertise on the "tanking" neck would be more worth it than the dps neck piece.
Depends on your gearset (obviously) but my sense is that it's not worth it for many.

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve]

The proc on the neck is +dodge if you are aldor (useless) and +expertise you are scyer (useful-ish).

With my set up, I am already above the hit cap so I would be trading 18 AGI, 64 AP and an +200AP/~+44avg proc (aldor) for 18 expertise rating and +29stam. Maybe the scyer +expertise proc would make it worthwhile but I don't think so.

On the plus side, it's replaced my Pendant of the Perilous and is fairly comparable to Choker of Endless Nightmares.
#3227SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Mind View Post
Regarding judgement of wisdom...

I'm really having trouble keeping it up at Brutallus. It's not because I miss or boss dodges. It simply goes away. That's pretty anoying cause in that fight I can't ask holy palas to refresh it.
Tho, sometimes it lasts much time, there are others that lasts 10/20sec...

Any tip?
Incidentally I've also been running into this problem.

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with how CS refreshes Judgements. It seems that your own Judgement (when it is refreshed by a normal melee swing) also has its priority reset, bumping it to the "top" of the debuff list. This is why your Judgement never seems to fall off. The other Judgements refreshed only by CS don't seem to have their priority reset though. They fall lower and lower on the debuff list, and as more debuffs are applied they get knocked off.

Its very annoying, to say the least.
#3228SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Divinehope
1800 DPS on Brutallus?

Ok so I realize its completely possible to achieve this and twice I have managed to hit 1750 DPS on him as a Retribution paladin but the thing is every other attempt I seem to keep hitting the 1650 range (this is with haste pots and seal of blood I am a blood elf paladin). I have not changed my dps cycle or anything not even the attempts where I managed to pull 1750 DPS. If anyone has any information as to how I can maybe better implement the rank 1 consecration and Exorcism into my dps cycle to achieve the 1800 dps or even 1750 every time would be great it would be much appreciated. As for gear I think I am decently geared here is my armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
I am accepting any and all support from anyone willing to offer any useful advice, thank you.
#3229SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
So, I'm confused. Rawr says that the Libram of Avengement is the better libram. Is this due to the judgement refreshing bug or is this the truly better libram?

edit: If you refresh these librams in Rawr, the Divine Judgement comes out on top.
Yeah the itemcache had the Libram set to the base value of 53 crit because of the refresh bug, but I have changed the code for it to calculate the crit based on uptime (5s out of 9, so 29.4). Just refresh the Libram and you'll get the correct value.
#3230SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Ragnor
Originally Posted by Divinehope View Post
Ok so I realize its completely possible to achieve this and twice I have managed to hit 1750 DPS on him as a Retribution paladin but the thing is every other attempt I seem to keep hitting the 1650 range (this is with haste pots and seal of blood I am a blood elf paladin). I have not changed my dps cycle or anything not even the attempts where I managed to pull 1750 DPS. If anyone has any information as to how I can maybe better implement the rank 1 consecration and Exorcism into my dps cycle to achieve the 1800 dps or even 1750 every time would be great it would be much appreciated. As for gear I think I am decently geared here is my armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
I am accepting any and all support from anyone willing to offer any useful advice, thank you.
Without wws logs or a some video footage it's going to be hard to give you any decent answers.

From looking at your armory only why do you have so many 10 critical strike gems instead of Inscribed Pyrestones and Bold Crimson Spinels

Last edited by Ragnor : 04/07/08 at 11:03 PM.
#3231SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Incidentally I've also been running into this problem.

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with how CS refreshes Judgements. It seems that your own Judgement (when it is refreshed by a normal melee swing) also has its priority reset, bumping it to the "top" of the debuff list. This is why your Judgement never seems to fall off. The other Judgements refreshed only by CS don't seem to have their priority reset though. They fall lower and lower on the debuff list, and as more debuffs are applied they get knocked off.

Its very annoying, to say the least.
We finally got Brutallus down and my DPS went way up thanks to all your advice.

Regarding the 'falling off' of judgements, our rogues were initially using Deadly Poison which pushed off JoW from Brutallus. In the later attempts, they switched it out for Instant Poison and JoW remained on the entire fight. Raid makeup can be seen on our Brutallus WWS found here:

Brutallus - Crowd Control - Blackwing Lair
#3232SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1TinReaper
Regarding the issue of the extra JoW procs.

I do not run vindication on my pally. But i still notice the extra JOW procs on CS.

I belive what is going on is that each judgement that is refreshed by CS counts as a hit for the pourpse of procing JOW.

It is something to look at if someone wants to test it
#3233SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samurai
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
You are so wrong.
Sorry but this wasn't meant to be an argumentative point. The point was based around JoW being so powerful that it was in some way a replacement for a shadowpriest and the part about melee shamans and hunters not getting a shadowpriest is true for most(tm) guilds.
#3234SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samurai
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Judgement of Wisdom should be giving hunters upwards of 15,000 mana on Brutallus. Even if Mages are only getting about 2 Mana pots worth, that's still 2 extra Destruction Potions.
A Shadowpriest gives ~22,000 mana to 5 people. Looking at a random WWS, JoW gives 106,856 over 10 people.
Sorry but I'm being slightly misquoted. The point was made against it being a replacement for a shadowpriest and for the class' that normally get a shadowpriest, it is no where near the same. I guess the original point was badly made, hopefully this helps.
#3235SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Grain of salt: its a CM and we all know how accurate they usually are.

We have mentioned in the past that we would like to improve Retribution Paladins in Wrath of the Lich King, we just don't have a lot of specific details to release regarding this right now. We did say we plan on changing how their abilities work to share gear with warriors which will help make it easier for them to gear up though.

Source
So eventually the seal system will be revamped in WotLK (only 3 years late, great job Blizzard!), but we are not going to see anything until then. I suppose this means I can stop bumping my Tier 6 bonus thread is pretty much a waste of time now.

And that is all for today's installment of Depressing Blue Posts™.
#3236SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I'm still at a loss how the dev's could have honestly created the Ret and Resto Druid 4pc t6 bonuses without being extremely intoxicated by some highly illegal substance...
#3237SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Strifen
Originally Posted by Divinehope View Post
Ok so I realize its completely possible to achieve this and twice I have managed to hit 1750 DPS on him as a Retribution paladin but the thing is every other attempt I seem to keep hitting the 1650 range (this is with haste pots and seal of blood I am a blood elf paladin). I have not changed my dps cycle or anything not even the attempts where I managed to pull 1750 DPS. If anyone has any information as to how I can maybe better implement the rank 1 consecration and Exorcism into my dps cycle to achieve the 1800 dps or even 1750 every time would be great it would be much appreciated. As for gear I think I am decently geared here is my armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
I am accepting any and all support from anyone willing to offer any useful advice, thank you.
First of all there's really no reason at all to be stacking +10 crit gems. It's common knowledge that +10 str is the best gem to stack on your gear, this alone will up your dps a fair bit so get to regemming if possible.

I managed to break 1800 on our brutallus kill and it really just came down to the fact I gave the meele group two lusts at the right times. One lust right on engage, here I popped my trinket/haste pot/AW - dps spikes up around 2300 during this time. Then another lust around the 2 minute marker when I have everything up again. If not for timing two lusts with aw + all cooldowns I don't think it's very possible to get 1800 reliably without some lucky dice rolls. Having a perfect drum rotation in the group helps too.

Either way 1650 is pretty damn respectable.
#3238SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Andrj
I found a post about what a Retripala brings to raids on a wow-forum (I think it was actually linked from here, but I'm not 100% sure as it was a while ago now).

Now, the author states the following: "In fact, because of the dps buffs the pally gets from WF and the group buffs the Ret pally bring to the group, the Ret pally only needs to do 65.8% of the rouge’s dps to be equal. (check section V for the math)"

Any comments or thoughts about this? Is this to be believed as a pretty valid calculation or is it completely wrong?

Would be awesome to know, both for our raid leaders and for ourselves. Would be awesome to say "Hey, you already have 2 rogues in the melee group. As I do more than 65% of that rogues DPS it's a complete waste to bring in a third rogue instead of me.".

The entire post with his calculation methods can be found here: WoW Forums -> Ret in Raids. Just copy and paste to Guild.
#3239SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ertai
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Grain of salt: its a CM and we all know how accurate they usually are.



So eventually the seal system will be revamped in WotLK (only 3 years late, great job Blizzard!), but we are not going to see anything until then. I suppose this means I can stop bumping my Tier 6 bonus thread is pretty much a waste of time now.

And that is all for today's installment of Depressing Blue Posts™.

Bah, reading official forums always gets me depressed.

But i do wonder, with the DK coming to raids i'm a bit afraid that we indeed might lose raid spots. While there's still nothing 100 % sure about DK's, the fact that they are adding another melee DPS class to the game while maintaining the raid cap of 25 people makes me sad.
#3240SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1slashbot
I have a question regarding the difference I'm seeing between my actual dps and estimated dps from the spreadsheet/rawr. I finally got the call to go ret for brutallus last night, I was only there for 3 attempts and 2 of them I didn't really have the hang of my dps rotation yet. Here is a link to the wws report for the attempt that I felt I was doing everything correctly (except for ending up in front of him for that parry somehow). I realize that I was in a pretty bad group, and that my gear isn't exactly stellar, but I am getting estimated 1226 dps in rawr and 1232 in the spreadsheet when I input my gear and all the buffs/debuffs that were present, and somehow I could only maintain just over 1000 in game. I know it will be somewhat lower by virtue of the way my trinkets are modelled vs. the fact that I wasn't using them literally every single time I could, but I don't feel like that would make up for a 200 dps difference.
#3241SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1grayrest
Using attempt 12:

5'54 second fight == 354 seconds

354/6 = 59 possible crusader strikes
354/9 = 39 possible judgements
354/2 = 177 possible consecrate ticks

Actual crusader strikes: 47
Actual judgements: 28
Actual consecrate ticks: 103

While the numbers at the top are unachievable due to having to wait 5-6 seconds for the tank to get a threat lead, you can get pretty close. I've had two weeks in a row where I've hit 1070 and 1065 on Nalorakk in ZA (closest I can get to a tank n spank but I lose 2-3 swings from his charges) while Rawr shows me at 1120 with that group comp.
#3242SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rodimus Prime
Quick question after skimming all the pages since the 2.4 patch - has anyone done any testing on whether Immune messages on Vindication still proc Judgment of Wisdom? I thought they fixed it in the patch, but I've seen some wierd strings of it proc'ing in my WWS.
#3243SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Quick question after skimming all the pages since the 2.4 patch - has anyone done any testing on whether Immune messages on Vindication still proc Judgment of Wisdom? I thought they fixed it in the patch, but I've seen some wierd strings of it proc'ing in my WWS.
Someone earlier mentioned that they thought the extra judgement procs were coming either from crusader strike renewing judgements - though they didn't mention if it was renewing only their own judgemement, or someone else's.
#3244SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I also hit exalted with SSO last night and have been messing around with the neck (scryers). So far I can confirm it uses melee crit, and I think melee hit (or is unresistable). I haven't had a chance to raid wit it yet, but I'll try it out on our Bear run tonight and get back to you.
What did you find out?
#3245SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arikah
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Quick question after skimming all the pages since the 2.4 patch - has anyone done any testing on whether Immune messages on Vindication still proc Judgment of Wisdom? I thought they fixed it in the patch, but I've seen some wierd strings of it proc'ing in my WWS.
I believe it still procs, as it should... 'fixing' it would probably equate to breaking the talent in some way.
Some anecdotal evidence postpatch: WWS Loading...
Assuming a 50% jow proc rate, it is impossible for me to have 221 ticks of it, with only a combined ability/swing usage of <275 (wws counts seal of blood twice, once for the mob damage once for the kickback, so cut blood in half)

If you think about it, just because the mob is immune, it still counts as a spell landing - it is the same reason you see your hammer of justice cooldown used even if the target is immune (pve or pvp, if a target is at max DR). What would help to clarify this issue is if someone could:
-judge wisdom on a frost mob
-have a mage use frost spells on it
-record if jow procs or not.

It's the same concept, anyone willing to test it?

Last edited by Arikah : 04/08/08 at 5:45 PM.
#3246SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
What would help to clarify this issue is if someone could:
-judge wisdom on a frost mob
-have a mage use frost spells on it
-record if jow procs or not.

It's the same concept, anyone willing to test it?
Husband's a fire-mage... I'll see if I can drag him out to nuke some stuff for me for testing's sake, and report back tonight.
#3247SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cerakona
Advice

Good evening. For the last three months I've been raiding as a Retribution Paladin, using World Breaker w/Mongoose as my main weapon. I've been considering replacing this with the new weapon from the Shattered Sun Offensive badge rewards once they become available on my server (in about five or six days at the current rate). Now, while I really want to read through what must be incredibly interesting information on maximising DPS, I find myself struggling with teh idea of reading 130 pages of posts to find relevant information on my issue.

According to Wowhead, the DPS of the weapon I am considering - The Blade of Harbingers - is approx 138.5-ish with Haste rating taken into effect. As I am using World Breaker (125.5 dps) w/mongoose (primarily for the 5.1% approx crit gain from its proc raid buffed), I am considering whether the 13-dps upgrade is truly worth it, and if so what enchant would be better to place upon it: mongoose, savagery, or executioner.

(For note, my raiding guild have only just starting hitting Mount Hyjal at the first boss, have not tried Black Temple, have cleared SSC and are working on Kael in TK.)
#3248SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Cerakona - your best bet to make this choice for your own gear and progression is to snag the new Rawr, or the DPS spreadsheet on the first page, and to switch that piece & see how your DPS changes. The new axe is glorious for Bloodelves from what I understand, so I can tell you that very likely you'll want it, and that also in all likelyhood mongoose will come out better for you, but you should run it through Rawr and see for yourself. Good luck with Rage!
#3249SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Originally Posted by noth View Post
Husband's a fire-mage... I'll see if I can drag him out to nuke some stuff for me for testing's sake, and report back tonight.
we killed a frost elemental with him lobbing R1 frostbolts and never procced JoW. Not a huge test, but he was distracted so I let him run away.
#3250SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Rodimus Prime
From what I've read/seen the new Axe is outstanding for Blood Elves.

That being said, I was skimming earlier pages, and then something came up - on p. 24, Cromfel made the suggestion that Lionheart Executioner was apparently better than Soul Cleaver? I'm not a huge math cruncher, but I'd assume that the reason this would hold true would be because of proc & expertise on the Sword. This should *theoretically* hold true until you hit a certain point (guessing 1300-ish?) with enough armor penetration to make it worthwhile to equip the Soul Cleaver?

I read further, and someone tried to debunk this, but didn't really make an effective argument. Cromfel later posted a graph showing Lionheart Executioner to have Lower DPS in T5 than Soul Cleaver in T6... which, is somewhat intuitive. Anyone have any strong mathcraft as to how this plays out in T6 gear with each weapon?

Last edited by Rodimus Prime : 04/08/08 at 11:46 PM.
#3251SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valerys
So I tried Rawr gear optimizer, and it claims that [Legplates of Unending Fury] are better than [Leggings of Divine Retribution] for seal of blood. Who to believe? Although it could just be preferring them in order to get hit cap...
#3252SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
The optimizer just attempts to pick the best combination among the gear you have selected. This will often mean an item which individually might be better gets left out because of a variety of reasons - Hit and Meta Requirements being the main ones.
#3253SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kris
Apparently you're not hit capped so the optimizer picked you the best legs with +hit on them.
#3254SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valerys
Yah, I'll try again with the exact same buffs and see if there are any major differences between Rawr and the spreadsheet.

Couple of things I noticed in Rawr model: Libram of Divine Judgement gets applied even if you select SoB; and unique JC gems like Crimson Sun and Stone of Blades are able to be socketed multiple times.
#3255SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eyana
does anyone of you know, if haste effects the wf totem 3sek internal cooldown? if so wouldnt it be wise to not stack haste beyond a certain point?
#3256SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Chicken
The 3 second hidden cooldown is only on Windfury Weapon, the shaman self-buff. It does not affect Windfury Totem.
#3257SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Blackthought
I am baffled

I just purchased a Blade of Harbingers on my pally and noticed that, when I equipped it, I lost almost 12% crit rating (I was previously using a Hammer of the Naaru). Attached is an armory link that shows my crit at around 17%. Can someone please explain how this is possible?

The World of Warcraft Armory

Another interesting thing that I have found is that my crit rating is higher with no weapon equipped than with the BoH equipped. Could this item actually have a negative crit rating?

Or is it the fact that I have a lvl1 2-handed axe skill? (If this is the case, I have a boring evening ahead of me).
#3258SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1zetrac
Or is it the fact that I have a lvl1 2-handed axe skill? (If this is the case, I have a boring evening ahead of me).
This is it
If I do remember well it is 0.04% crit per skill point you loose this way
#3259SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cerakona
Blackthought, your weapon skill determines the maximum possible crit you can achieve with a weapon, so if you have 1 kill in it, you will lose all that crit you have. Enjoy the long night of Seal of Crusader grinding your axe skill
#3260SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Blackthought
Originally Posted by Cerakona View Post
Blackthought, your weapon skill determines the maximum possible crit you can achieve with a weapon, so if you have 1 kill in it, you will lose all that crit you have. Enjoy the long night of Seal of Crusader grinding your axe skill
Thanks for the confirmation. Sometimes I feel like such an idiot.
#3261SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sorry
In this case, go to one of the unkillables in Blasted Lands, judge light, start auto-attacking and watch tv while occasionally hitting a key.
#3262SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Also, this is the two handed axe you want to skill on -

[Mag'hari Battleaxe]

As an aside, is anyone else completely amazed that weapon skilling is still required? Blizzard generally does such a good job of cutting out stuff that simply isn't fun. I guess I just don't see what they're trying to do - it won't stop people from rolling on or getting items - it won't seriously increase the power of any class by gaining 5 ws a pop like casters gain in their tree skills. Especially with the increase level speed, it's obvious they want you to burn through some old and busted content - ws is just silly.
#3263SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
Also, this is the two handed axe you want to skill on -

[Mag'hari Battleaxe]

As an aside, is anyone else completely amazed that weapon skilling is still required? Blizzard generally does such a good job of cutting out stuff that simply isn't fun. I guess I just don't see what they're trying to do - it won't stop people from rolling on or getting items - it won't seriously increase the power of any class by gaining 5 ws a pop like casters gain in their tree skills. Especially with the increase level speed, it's obvious they want you to burn through some old and busted content - ws is just silly.
I can't say I'm surprised. It can be annoying, but it does add a little flavor to the game, as your character "grows" into a new level, rather than just hitting 70 and instantly being "just as good" as an older 70 character.


When you're leveling, you generally swap a few weapons, so it's not like you always suffer that grind from 1 weapon skill to 350.
#3264SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zupal
Originally Posted by Cerakona View Post
Good evening. For the last three months I've been raiding as a Retribution Paladin, using World Breaker w/Mongoose as my main weapon. I've been considering replacing this with the new weapon from the Shattered Sun Offensive badge rewards once they become available on my server (in about five or six days at the current rate). Now, while I really want to read through what must be incredibly interesting information on maximising DPS, I find myself struggling with teh idea of reading 130 pages of posts to find relevant information on my issue.

According to Wowhead, the DPS of the weapon I am considering - The Blade of Harbingers - is approx 138.5-ish with Haste rating taken into effect. As I am using World Breaker (125.5 dps) w/mongoose (primarily for the 5.1% approx crit gain from its proc raid buffed), I am considering whether the 13-dps upgrade is truly worth it, and if so what enchant would be better to place upon it: mongoose, savagery, or executioner.

Spreadsheet indicates a 50DPS upgrade when using Harbinger's over World Breaker with SoB. I think your calculations undervalue the effect of haste as it relates to SoB. Again Mongoose (due to haste) is the preferred enchant for SoB paladins.
#3265SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I can't say I'm surprised. It can be annoying, but it does add a little flavor to the game, as your character "grows" into a new level, rather than just hitting 70 and instantly being "just as good" as an older 70 character.
When the universal solution is to find the fastest weapon you can, stack as much haste as you can manage, and find an unkillable mob to beat on until your movie is over - I would argue that's not much flavor.
#3266SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1antilog
If I am a human paladin, have no way to get Torch or S3 weapon, but can save up the badges for The Blade of the Harbringers, should I get it, or just save up points for S2 weapon? The top end damage is still higher than my Hammer of the Naaru.
#3267SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by antilog View Post
If I am a human paladin, have no way to get Torch or S3 weapon, but can save up the badges for The Blade of the Harbringers, should I get it, or just save up points for S2 weapon? The top end damage is still higher than my Hammer of the Naaru.
I'd suggest you use Bellator's spreadsheet or RAWR 13 to determine specific itemization questions.
#3268SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Agonar
Concerning Brutallus

I have a quick question concerning Brutallus.

Do you think i would have better result of Using Torch Of the Damned and put a Executioner enchant on it? Or Shivering Felspine that has a Mongoose enchant on it already? Considering that this boss has a lots of armor. But i dont have any +armor penetration gears.

Something tell me i should stick with my Shivering Felspine(w/ Mongoose) but since its a heavy armored boss i am a bit confused about what to do exactly.
#3269SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
I thought I saw something a few pages ago about Brutallus being 7700 and not 8800 armor, but either way the fact remains, you need more armor pen than just executioner for it to out-dps mongoose (see lengthy arguments a few pages ago ). Add that to the fact the felspine is a higher-DPS weapon for you in general, and the answer seems pretty obvious. G'luck on Brutallus!
#3270SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ankler
Originally Posted by Agonar View Post
I have a quick question concerning Brutallus.

Do you think i would have better result of Using Torch Of the Damned and put a Executioner enchant on it? Or Shivering Felspine that has a Mongoose enchant on it already? Considering that this boss has a lots of armor. But i dont have any +armor penetration gears.

Something tell me i should stick with my Shivering Felspine(w/ Mongoose) but since its a heavy armored boss i am a bit confused about what to do exactly.
The effectiveness of armor penetration is derived from how low you can get the mob's armor to zero. The further away from zero you are the more dps you lose compared to being built for haste so I'd advise you to use Shivering Felspine with mongoose. As a general rule executioner is only more effective than mongoose if you have a reasonable amount of armor penetration gear.
#3271SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
When the universal solution is to find the fastest weapon you can, stack as much haste as you can manage, and find an unkillable mob to beat on until your movie is over - I would argue that's not much flavor.
That's not the only solution, that's for leveling 100+ weapon skill. If you have 5~50 weapon skill to level up, you just do dailies or an instance run and let it take care of itself.


Flavor-wise, weapon skill leveling "makes sense" for small increments. When you gain a level, you're able to become "more skilled" with your current weapon versus same level mobs, represented by the increase in the weapon skill cap. When you switch to a weapon you haven't used for a few levels (20~25 weapon skill under cap), it "makes sense" that you're not as "skillful" with it, and that it takes a little while to gain proficiency with that weapon.


The system breaks when you haven't used a weapon type in 50~70 levels and want to use it NOW. It takes something like 500 swings (1->300~) before you're able to deal meaningful damage with the weapon. If you could earn more than 1 weapon skill per swing, this wouldn't be as big a problem. But simply removing weapon skill mechanics would be a bit of an over-reaction, IMO.



To go back to the topic of Ret DPS.... The badge axe should generally be a solid upgrade over T4/T5 level weapons? If I don't see some luck in ZA soon, it looks like that's the best use of my badges.
#3272SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
Is it plausible that having vindication can cause extra threat? Since recently getting vindication 1/3 I've noticed my threat going up by lots.. It's possible it could be something else though.
#3273SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
To go back to the topic of Ret DPS.... The badge axe should generally be a solid upgrade over T4/T5 level weapons? If I don't see some luck in ZA soon, it looks like that's the best use of my badges.
My spreadsheet says that the axe is a 40 dps upgrade even over my jin'rohk - and almost 30 over the Twinblade.
#3274SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
I heard it mentioned that the original calculation for Brut's armor was flawed and that in reality he is a medium 7700 armor boss. Can anyone confirm/deny?
#3275SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I heard it mentioned that the original calculation for Brut's armor was flawed and that in reality he is a medium 7700 armor boss. Can anyone confirm/deny?
That's the conclusion on the Brutallus thread, check there for the math/explanation.
#3276SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Just a comment:

I'm seeing way too many people come and ask "this weapon or that weapon", "this enchant or this enchant".

No offense, but this is exactly why the spreadsheet and rawr exist. They can tell you better than anyone in this thread what to use over what since they consider your specific gear/buffs/spec/debuffs. You can even set boss armor value in rawr on the last tab (options tab).

This is not just dickery and elitism, but it really serves no purpose to perpetually answer those questions, just learn to use the spreadsheet/rawr, there has been so much work put into them and they're really worth it once you're up and running

If there's a mechanics question or any other comment, by all means ask, but lets cut down a bit on the X vs Y spoonfeeding ok?
#3277SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Recursive
I was wondering what the opinions were on the DPS boost of PoJ/Bom/Crusade. Currently I am running with Imp Bom/PoJ over Crusade. I am using this setup because our holy paladins decide to put there talents in useless places.

Should I go with Imp Bom/Crusade or try and run with Crusade/PoJ?

Just looking for some general ideas on what I should do.
#3278SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Paragos
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
Is it plausible that having vindication can cause extra threat? Since recently getting vindication 1/3 I've noticed my threat going up by lots.. It's possible it could be something else though.
I do not think this is the case. I have had 1 point in Vindication for some time.

However, and this is more important, I have noticed since 2.4 that Omen is totally broken for me. I continually update it before every raid, yet it still has me right under the tanks. I've been having to turn off auto attack on almost every boss in BT whereas before I only had to be careful on Bloodboil.

Finally, last night I decided to be suicidal and go all out. I was 48% above the tank on Essence of Anger without pulling aggro, so Omen is definitely broken for me.

I'm wondering if anyone else is having this problem.
#3279SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aramul
5/8/46+2 is the standard Ret build.

The remaining 2 points can be put in Improved Judgement (if you think it will help you time Judgements), Vindication (if you think it will proc more JoW), or Benediction (if you don't want to put them elsewhere). Improved Blessing of Might can be replaced with points in Benediction if your Holy Paladins are guaranteed to have it, but Improved Blessing of Might is an all or nothing talent. Benediction is an incredibly minor mana reduction, and not worth any DPS sacrifice.
#3280SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Andrj
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
I'm wondering if anyone else is having this problem.
I think Omen is broken in general, actually. Our guild has switched to KTM for the time being.
#3281SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trakor
WTB SoB. This is geting out of control already. This guy is doing around 500 more dps than SoC pallies can get:
Wow Web Stats
#3282SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1masume
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
WTB SoB. This is geting out of control already. This guy is doing around 500 more dps than SoC pallies can get:
Wow Web Stats
Thats an incomplete parse
Best I've seen regarding retribution pallies in stacked melee groups is 1800-1900 dps
Wow Web Stats
#3283SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ragnor
There is a non significant difference but it's more like 200 dps, not 500 and it looks like he died 1min before the end in the wws link above me.

Last edited by Ragnor : Yesterday at 1:07 AM.
#3284SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Valerys
Originally Posted by Recursive View Post
I was wondering what the opinions were on the DPS boost of PoJ/Bom/Crusade. Currently I am running with Imp Bom/PoJ over Crusade. I am using this setup because our holy paladins decide to put there talents in useless places.

Should I go with Imp Bom/Crusade or try and run with Crusade/PoJ?

Just looking for some general ideas on what I should do.
I'm definitely considering going back to 3/3 Crusade. It covers pretty much all the common mob types except beasts, and being a percentage, it scales as you improve gear.
Also PoJ is IMO an invaluable talent even in PvE, as someone said movement speed is the most important dps stat. And the amount of boss fights where movement is crucial is quite significant.
#3285SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Veneda
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
I do not think this is the case. I have had 1 point in Vindication for some time.

However, and this is more important, I have noticed since 2.4 that Omen is totally broken for me. I continually update it before every raid, yet it still has me right under the tanks. I've been having to turn off auto attack on almost every boss in BT whereas before I only had to be careful on Bloodboil.

Finally, last night I decided to be suicidal and go all out. I was 48% above the tank on Essence of Anger without pulling aggro, so Omen is definitely broken for me.

I'm wondering if anyone else is having this problem.
I can confirm that, Omen2 is still completly broken for ret pally aggro - last night in MH I was so annoyed by constantly riding tank aggro that I just went all out and ended 40-50% higher on aggro according to Omen, not stealing aggro ever.

It's either something about undervaluing tank aggro generation or underestimating ret pally aggro reduction in raid enviroment (30% from talent then another from BoS).

As for Vindication, I currently use 2/3, partially because there wasn't anything better in ret tree to put it in (Crusade and PoJ both at 3/3 already). Plus, I see some advantage of having 10% STA reduction on mayority of the trash mobs. I don't know about Sunwell, but in Hyjal it's affecting almost everything in the trash waves (I'm not sure about abominations). Evertyhing that speeds up trash clearing is good thing in my book.
#3286SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noraj
Originally Posted by Veneda View Post
I can confirm that, Omen2 is still completly broken for ret pally aggro - last night in MH I was so annoyed by constantly riding tank aggro that I just went all out and ended 40-50% higher on aggro according to Omen, not stealing aggro ever.

It's either something about undervaluing tank aggro generation or underestimating ret pally aggro reduction in raid enviroment (30% from talent then another from BoS).
Strangely, some people are showing their threat as being far too high, and others far too low. I'm fairly certain that when i pulled aggro on a meter reading 50% of the tanks threat that yes, things are broken, but I why are people seeing this issue from both a high and low standpoint? It seems like Threat-2.0 would be misinterpreting our abilities consistently.
#3287SourcePosted on <=2.0.0warlockgod
Omen has been fixed for retribution paladins yesterday, it wasn't accounting for the -30% threat we get from fanaticism. It should now show paladin threat correctly
#3288SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
So I was glancing over our WWS for Gorfiend last night and I saw some very strange returns from Judgement of Wisdom.

I seem to have a very unusually high number of procs for the amount of swings I was doing. At first I thought it was just JoW being bugged, but everyone else is getting normal procs (around 50%), whereas I am getting closer to 80%. The strangest thing is that I don't even have Vindication in this build.

EDIT: Okay, it goes something like this. I had a total of 177 attacks that could have procced Judgement of Wisdom (81 autoswings, 32 Crusader Strikes, 21 Seal of Commands, 20 Judgement of Commands, 18 Consecrations, and 5 Arcane Strikes). I had 161 JoW procs, or a 90.96% proc chance. I'm nearly positive this is beyond the realm of statistical probability. It wasn't a fluke either, the Mother kill shows the same trend (with an 80% proc rate).

Something is obviously proccing a ton of extra JoWs (and its not Vindication). My first bet is the old Judgement refresh bug, but I can't test that at the moment (work sucks).

EDIT 2: Time for another installment in our semiweekly series, Depressing Blue Posts™. Again, take it with a large grain of salt because CM's have no idea what is going on 99% of the time.

Blue tagging this to make sure that more people will see it. :-)

Things will indeed change for Retribution Paladins in Wrath of the Lich King, but as Bornakk said, we don't have a lot of specifics available to share with you at this point in time.

What was said was that the developers plan to change how the abilities of Retribution Paladins will work, which will make it easier to gear up due to the possibilities of sharing gear with Warriors. Although we have little information beyond this, this may also serve as an interpretation that Retribution Paladin mana issues should be less of a concern after WotLK.

It is still a little too soon to speculate however, but rest assured that we will keep you informed as soon as new updates become available :-)


(Source)

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 10:28 AM.
#3289SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Blackthought
Would anyone be willing to take a WWS report Wow Web Stats and let me know if they can see any huge mistakes that I am making? My Pally is named Plaguis.

I believe that I am up to do date on my theorycraft and often use Bellator's spreadsheet but would appreciate critiques of my play. We are a "months behind" guild so the fights are from SSC.

Last edited by Blackthought : Yesterday at 1:32 PM.
#3290SourcePosted on <=2.0.0CHaoTiCTeX
Change how our abilities will work?

why do I not have a good feeling about those words.
#3291SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Khaelarys
Originally Posted by CHaoTiCTeX View Post
Change how our abilities will work?

why do I not have a good feeling about those words.
Experience?
#3292SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petru
I'm posting out of curiosity regarding the use of Shivering Felspine. I was lucky enough to land one last week (upgraded from a Cats Edge), and also a DST (upgraded from Berserker's Call), so was quite looking forward to this weeks Teron to compare.

I'm seeing however what feels like an overall reduction in damage. In max dps situations I'm seeing my top end crits dropping from 5k a swing to 3.5k a swing, and Teron landed me only 1620 DPS versus my previous best of 1780 (admittedly on a 4minute kill).

This generally feels... crap. I'm being told not to worry about comparing one fight directly with another, and I could've just been unlucky on crits/WF procs etc, but I'm not massively convinced in the face of solid numbers.

So, am I being unlucky, or is anyone else with this pretty Polearm seeing anything similar?
#3293SourcePosted on <=2.0.0DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Petru View Post
I'm posting out of curiosity regarding the use of Shivering Felspine. I was lucky enough to land one last week (upgraded from a Cats Edge), and also a DST (upgraded from Berserker's Call), so was quite looking forward to this weeks Teron to compare.

I'm seeing however what feels like an overall reduction in damage. In max dps situations I'm seeing my top end crits dropping from 5k a swing to 3.5k a swing, and Teron landed me only 1620 DPS versus my previous best of 1780 (admittedly on a 4minute kill).

This generally feels... crap. I'm being told not to worry about comparing one fight directly with another, and I could've just been unlucky on crits/WF procs etc, but I'm not massively convinced in the face of solid numbers.

So, am I being unlucky, or is anyone else with this pretty Polearm seeing anything similar?
See the first post at the top of this page:

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Just a comment:

I'm seeing way too many people come and ask "this weapon or that weapon", "this enchant or this enchant".

No offense, but this is exactly why the spreadsheet and rawr exist. They can tell you better than anyone in this thread what to use over what since they consider your specific gear/buffs/spec/debuffs. You can even set boss armor value in rawr on the last tab (options tab).

This is not just dickery and elitism, but it really serves no purpose to perpetually answer those questions, just learn to use the spreadsheet/rawr, there has been so much work put into them and they're really worth it once you're up and running

If there's a mechanics question or any other comment, by all means ask, but lets cut down a bit on the X vs Y spoonfeeding ok?
The polearm is a better weapon than Cataclysm's Edge, which can be easily seen. Big numbers don't reflect good damage, and short fights like Gorefiend don't give you a good estimate of your true DPS.
#3294SourcePosted on <=2.0.0madmardigan83
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Just a comment:

I'm seeing way too many people come and ask "this weapon or that weapon", "this enchant or this enchant".

No offense, but this is exactly why the spreadsheet and rawr exist. They can tell you better than anyone in this thread what to use over what since they consider your specific gear/buffs/spec/debuffs. You can even set boss armor value in rawr on the last tab (options tab).

This is not just dickery and elitism, but it really serves no purpose to perpetually answer those questions, just learn to use the spreadsheet/rawr, there has been so much work put into them and they're really worth it once you're up and running

If there's a mechanics question or any other comment, by all means ask, but lets cut down a bit on the X vs Y spoonfeeding ok?
Overall I agree with this. What is the point of going over the same material?

In all fairness however, someone that was referred to this thread would have a LOT of reading to do to catch up. Is there a chance we could have the first post have a bit more with info? The main concern/missing item is a link to a current Rawr.Ret model. I have to search for it every time I tell a Ret about it. I think that would help a lot (not to mention I feel that most general users would find it easier to use than the spreadsheet).

Also, for those people using the Rawr program, are you finding your dps to be fairly close to what it projects? I honestly use it more of a 'comparison' for when an item drops. However, if it is fairly accurate, perhaps I need to be doing something differently on my boss fights.
#3295SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Seems to be fairly accurate for me. Remember though it considers prefect conditions/rotation and no lag/human error.

Also "a lot" of damage in wow currently is heavily depended on so many group factors. Besides trivial things like group setup and buffs, you got drum rotations, pot rotations, heroism, trinkets, debuff uptime.

All those things combined can make some pretty major differences in how things pan out in the end, +/- 200 DPS.

Dodges, resists, crit streaks can also make a big difference in short fights.

On our Brutallus kill I was clocking at 1850 DPS which is pretty impressive as an alliance paladin (ret, war, enh sham, rogue, rogue, drum rotation, 1x heroism), up until the last minute where I ran out of mana and ended up as 1775ish in the end.

I finally got expertise capped and hoping to see my DPS stabilize further since I shouldn't have any more dodges (or misses).

Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
In all fairness however, someone that was referred to this thread would have a LOT of reading to do to catch up. Is there a chance we could have the first post have a bit more with info?
I'd probably be willing to make a write up of the most significant bits at some point.
#3296SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by madmardigan83 View Post
Overall I agree with this. What is the point of going over the same material?

In all fairness however, someone that was referred to this thread would have a LOT of reading to do to catch up. Is there a chance we could have the first post have a bit more with info? The main concern/missing item is a link to a current Rawr.Ret model. I have to search for it every time I tell a Ret about it. I think that would help a lot (not to mention I feel that most general users would find it easier to use than the spreadsheet).

Also, for those people using the Rawr program, are you finding your dps to be fairly close to what it projects? I honestly use it more of a 'comparison' for when an item drops. However, if it is fairly accurate, perhaps I need to be doing something differently on my boss fights.
It's also a pain to find past proofs (for various mechanics) and whatnot. Maybe we could compile a FAQ and slap it at the top of the first post. (Avitus' post would make a good answer to the top question on the list. = D)


As for Rawr, I was playing with it yesterday, and its predicted DPS was pretty close to the DPS recount recorded. That's without Rawr factoring in temporary buffs like Heroism or AW, though. Treat it like a rough ballpark number and notice why/when you fall short of it.
#3297SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

I'd probably be willing to make a write up of the most significant bits at some point.
With the launch of the wiki it might be worth starting to go through the thread and summarizing the more important points. Eventually we'll have to do it, so better to find out who is interested and get to work now.
#3298SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Theras
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
With the launch of the wiki it might be worth starting to go through the thread and summarizing the more important points. Eventually we'll have to do it, so better to find out who is interested and get to work now.
Already way ahead of you. I haven't gotten a solid framework quite done up yet to put into the Vetting Machine, but it's definitely a WIP. I've just been getting murdered by term papers and finals this last couple weeks.
#3299SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
As for Rawr, I was playing with it yesterday, and its predicted DPS was pretty close to the DPS recount recorded. That's without Rawr factoring in temporary buffs like Heroism or AW, though. Treat it like a rough ballpark number and notice why/when you fall short of it.
Rawr factors in both. Avenging Wrath is calculated internally, and its uptime is based on the fight duration you select. Bloodlust is also calculated, and there's a checkbox in the last section of buffs for it. Bloodlust is also calculated based on uptime.
#3300SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Scorpiodrush
wondering where I can easiy find the Newest Rawr.ret and where I could find the newest item files.
#3301SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
Something I experimented with earlier on Brutallus, on previous nights I had been max-ranking Consecration and just chugging Fel Mana Potions and Dark Runes to keep my mana up and was sustaining 1600-1700 DPS on most attempts, which I was very happy with considering it was a regular melee group (Ret/Warrior/Rogue/Rogue/Enhance).

Instead tonight, I downranked Consecration to Rank 1 and kept everything else the same but instead just used Haste pots and it seemed to me to give a small (very small) increase in DPS. Most of the time I was hovering around 1700 DPS with a couple of attempts over 1800.

I'll probably be sticking with this second approach, since it means I go through less pots overall and it's less things I have to carry on me.
#3302SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1zetrac
regarding the guys asking for Rawr.Ret link , there is no need to look for it as the "normal" version of Rawr includes the ret model.
Rawr - Home
#3303SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trigunflame
Edited: nvm
#3304SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pvita
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
EDIT: Okay, it goes something like this. I had a total of 177 attacks that could have procced Judgement of Wisdom (81 autoswings, 32 Crusader Strikes, 21 Seal of Commands, 20 Judgement of Commands, 18 Consecrations, and 5 Arcane Strikes). I had 161 JoW procs, or a 90.96% proc chance. I'm nearly positive this is beyond the realm of statistical probability. It wasn't a fluke either, the Mother kill shows the same trend (with an 80% proc rate).

Something is obviously proccing a ton of extra JoWs (and its not Vindication). My first bet is the old Judgement refresh bug, but I can't test that at the moment (work sucks).
Can confirm this. I was going through my WWStats, not so far as you just start of MH, and noticed it as well. I have 90% chance that JoW procs from abilities able to trigger it. Honestly, not sure what is happening. Though I am not as well sure if we should even ask Blizzard about it, as I am happy how it is and do not want to trigger hot fix patch 2.4.2.

@Rawr, Spreadsheet and reality: Rawr gives basically same results to spreadsheet. I use Rawr now for more quick checks for its simplicity and fact that I do not have Excel at home. I tend to go spreadsheet when I want to fiddle more around and get better insight why. Since patch 2.4 is out, I was closely checking how much our DPS model link to reality.

We are just 3 bosses on MH now and I would say that those 3 bosses are great deal for check--all demons and span from retri unfriendly over average to retri friendly. Rage Winterchills needs you to move so I do about 200-250dps less as my modeled maximum of 1450dps with my actual gear. Anetheron is real madness as I do 1420dps on him and I made this boss now my official gear check as I am achieving 98% of my predicted dps output. And Kaz'rogal is pain when I need to reduce my mana eating abilities and go 350dps down from max.

All around I am very satisfied so far with accurancy of Rawr and spreadsheet! Great job guys!
#3305SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pvita
Originally Posted by Blackthought View Post
Would anyone be willing to take a WWS report Wow Web Stats and let me know if they can see any huge mistakes that I am making? My Pally is named Plaguis.

I believe that I am up to do date on my theorycraft and often use Bellator's spreadsheet but would appreciate critiques of my play. We are a "months behind" guild so the fights are from SSC.
I am not the Guru in this thread, just regular reader, and to it as well human. But I noticed you do not sport much expertise as chunk of your attacks get not only parried but as well dodged. Try to put Shapeshifter's Signet into spreadsheet instead of rings you posses now, you could be in SSC surprised how good that thing can be. Have you got that Badge of Justice necklace? Armory is showing you in tanking gear just now.

In Hydross fight you are short of consumables and got only BoSal? No battleshout etc. either. Lurker Bellow again, no consumables buffed, only BoSal and battleshout though no Windfury. Not used weight/sharpening stones. Morogrim I did not bother check anymore.

It seems you are not properly placed, rest of paladins do not buff you and you do not use consumables. At least WWStats of yours do not list this stuff...
#3306SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
I was looking at rawr, and saw that it gave the option for ranks 1, 4, and 6 consecrate, is there any merit to using rank 4 over rank 1?
#3307SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Given a specific duration(of the fight), just select the rank you think you can sustain. Rank 4 will obviously be higher damage, while having a higher mana cost. I personally just use Rank 6 or 1, but kept Rank 4 there for those who want something in between.
#3308SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valerys
I'm still confused. By using Rawr optimizer (while selecting all T6 gear as available), it still claims that [Leggings of Divine Retribution] are crap, and [Legplates of Unending Fury] are the best in T6. Yet playing with gear setups in Bellator's spreadsheet I get the exact opposite, DivRet being top dog and Unending Fury being worse than everything else including T6 and Archimonde legs. Since the anvil is opening on our server in a few days I am very unsure whether to use 100 badges on the legplates or wait for the drop from Bloodboil...
#3309SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pvita
Originally Posted by CHaoTiCTeX View Post
I was looking at rawr, and saw that it gave the option for ranks 1, 4, and 6 consecrate, is there any merit to using rank 4 over rank 1?
I would expect something along the line that rank 4 is not getting way to high downranking penalty while not costing so much mana. Though I would rather as limiting your rank based on Rawr, just flexibly use Consecration rank to burn left mana in order to be out of mana just when boss dies.
#3310SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samiel
So, I've been beating myself in the head with this.

Human Paladin, Lionheart Executioner w/ Mongoose vs Blade of the Harbinger w/ Mongoose

Is the Blade worth it for me, giving up expertise rating sits badly with me, in exchange for a blade I'm not 100% sure is an upgrade.

I realize the Haste/Crit/AP is nice, however, the Procs of LhE (100 str) coupled with the actual better AP from LhE and, I'm just not sure which to pick.

Edit : After checking, I saw a minor error in my crit calculations, and the Harbinger comes out better.
#3311SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pvita
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
I'm still confused. By using Rawr optimizer (while selecting all T6 gear as available), it still claims that [Leggings of Divine Retribution] are crap, and [Legplates of Unending Fury] are the best in T6. Yet playing with gear setups in Bellator's spreadsheet I get the exact opposite, DivRet being top dog and Unending Fury being worse than everything else including T6 and Archimonde legs. Since the anvil is opening on our server in a few days I am very unsure whether to use 100 badges on the legplates or wait for the drop from Bloodboil...
As somebody said before. The biggest influence has prolly hit rating. Put manually gear in and compare them. One pants would be utter crap if you are hit capped and hit from them brings you nothing. In the moment you fiddle with gear a little and will use hit bonus from pants fully, they will sky rocket. It is same with all gear around.

And I would not give so much on Rawr optimizer. I used it once, he got me from 1450dps with gear I selected him to use on "optimal" 1300dps. When I fiddle with gear I marked him to check myself, I got up to 1560dps. Moral learned, use your head and do not trust black box optimizers.

Meh. Last posting today, I am starting to spam.
#3312SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Herzak
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
I'm still confused. By using Rawr optimizer (while selecting all T6 gear as available), it still claims that [Leggings of Divine Retribution] are crap, and [Legplates of Unending Fury] are the best in T6. Yet playing with gear setups in Bellator's spreadsheet I get the exact opposite, DivRet being top dog and Unending Fury being worse than everything else including T6 and Archimonde legs. Since the anvil is opening on our server in a few days I am very unsure whether to use 100 badges on the legplates or wait for the drop from Bloodboil...
Is it possible that you forgot to switch to Seal of Blood for Rwar...?
#3313SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pvita
Originally Posted by Samiel View Post
So, I've been beating myself in the head with this.

Human Paladin, Lionheart Executioner w/ Mongoose vs Blade of the Harbinger w/ Mongoose

Is the Blade worth it for me, giving up expertise rating sits badly with me, in exchange for a blade I'm not 100% sure is an upgrade.

I realize the Haste/Crit/AP is nice, however, the Procs of LhE (100 str) coupled with the actual better AP from LhE and, I'm just not sure which to pick.

Edit : After checking, I saw a minor error in my crit calculations, and the Harbinger comes out better.
Heh. I will take on me being an asshole today yet.

In last 10 postings is link to Rawr. On the 1st page of this thread is Spreadsheet to download. Plug in your gear and look what your resulting DPS would be with each weapon/enchant combination.

Is it so hard to just give people little recognition using the tools they created for your sorry ass?

Edit: People here has no magic balls to look into. They use all those tools too.
#3314SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Samiel
Looking at those tools, which I have, the weapons change places depending on the buffs I have available, and depending on what rawr I use, I also have no idea if the Rawr takes the proc into account, something I am not sure it does, that aside, I cannot use Bellators Spreadsheet, since I have no Excel, however, I asked this for personal experiences of people, I asked this for personal opinions, not for numbers that tell me different things depending on the luck of the draw.

So, again, I'll ask, rather than try to look through the 133 pages page by page, since the SEARCH i did of the threat came up with only two posts that mentioned the weapon, and none actually talked about anything regarding it.

So, I don't know, be constructive, and assume I actually *HAVE* done some research, eh?

EDIT : Offensive language removed

Last edited by Samiel : 04/11/08 at 4:40 AM.
#3315SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valerys
I didn't forget SoB, my experience above is with SoB selected.

Additionally I get significantly different dps figures from Rawr and the spreadsheet while using the exact same gear and buffs/debuffs...
#3316SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
The Optimizer itself is not related to the retribution model at all, and it "attempts to" pick the best combination from the available gear. Not having worked with the optimizer myself, I cant guarantee how accurate it is, but it is definitely probable that you might get a couple of non-ideal choices thrown in.

However, if you're just comparing Divine Retribution vs Badge Leggings normally through the comparison sheet, you *should* get DivRet ahead if you're hitcapped without the legs.

Regarding the difference in results, there might be some items with procs which I haven't modeled so far (World Breaker, Lionheart among a few others) which could be the cause. PM me the saved XML for the character setup you are concerned with if you want me to look at whats causing the difference.
#3317SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
pvita
Originally Posted by Samiel View Post
Looking at those tools, which I have, the weapons change places depending on the buffs I have available, and depending on what rawr I use, I also have no idea if the Rawr takes the proc into account, something I am not sure it does, that aside, I cannot use Bellators Spreadsheet, since I have no Excel, however, I asked this for personal experiences of people, I asked this for personal opinions, not for numbers that tell me different things depending on the luck of the draw.

So, again, I'll ask, rather than try to look through the 133 pages page by page, since the SEARCH i did of the threat came up with only two posts that mentioned the weapon, and none actually talked about anything regarding it.

So, I don't know, be constructive, and assume I actually *HAVE* done some research, eh?

EDIT : Offensive language removed
All question about X v Y gear leads to check spreadsheet how it works for you. I doubt many here was able to get that axe to hands yet as anvils are mostly closed, to give you their experience in the first hand. And even if they get it, the only accurate resutls will give them WWStats and no feeling out of the belly.

You say they swap places based on buffs available? I am not sure how yours, but my raid buffs are quite stable. Why not to use the most standard raids buff settings you can get and use just that for both weapons to compare? And if it is problem, how big is the change in DPS between them for you? 5dps? 10dps? What buffs you swapped out/in to get this result? Is the change of dps achieved worthy 150badges?

How looks your whole raiding gear? If one is giving you expertise bonus to your racial, you are getting quite strong buff if not expertise capped, up to 30dps on it only. While Anarkii and Belattor can without problem average the DPS buffs from weapon procs, allowing to compare this weapons by their own, rest of your gear is pretty big factor in game too. How we can even know this things? Just racial bonus of 5 expertise can make a big difference itself if you are not expertise capped. This all are factors nobody here can actually really answer you.

If it makes you happy, I give you some numbers from both Rawr and spreadsheet. Though notice they do not need to work for you. In Belator's spreadsheet Harbringer blade scores 2dps more over Lionhearth in my gear. Strenght procs is incorporated. I am not going to pay 150BoJ for it. It scores 4dps higher in Rawr. This means both Rawr and spreadsheet does basically same. I am definitely getting rather 10 heroic badge gems á 15BoJ each to regem my whole gear to make more out of it as to get this new axe. I am human paladin.

And no offense. This is a theorycrafting thread, not really gear comparing one. Our all knowledge is so far in those tools we have. Ask "WHY is X better to Y, providing following condition Z1, Zn are met?" as "IS X is better to Y?". Here is my opinion rock solid.

Edit: If you want to have in Rawr same setting as in Bellator's spreadsheet (I trust second more as I can check all quickly myself), go into file ItemCache.xml, search up "Lionheart" and set its Strength on 77 from 52. Than you have averaged proc in Rawr too. It shrinks those 4dps on Belator's 2dps btw.

Last edited by pvita : 04/11/08 at 5:20 AM.
#3318SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elmira
Hello everyone !

Posting for the first time on these boards so please don't be too harsh on me.

I thought I maybe could somehow contribute to the "Whether Vindication can procc JoW or not" discussion.
Yesterday I went to Stratholme to do a very short, therefore not too accurate, test to see if I can get any more insight in this matter. I hit the spider boss around a hundred times with a 1.80speed one-hander, with no seal active and only JoW on the mob.
Sadly, the results aren't clear.
I observed only two 'out of the ordinary' double proccs. Here's a link to a screenshot of my combat log:

http://i30.tinypic.com/14kf62r.jpg

In the lower screenshot you can clearly see that there was no Vindication involved, only the judgement refresh.
Moreover I don't think I can blame my latency for this as the test was performed late night and I was running with a stable ~60ms connection.

What do you guys think about it ? It could be that the refresh itself can procc the judgement, however, two double-proccs out of a hundred hits do seem a bit low. Perhaps I should revisit Stratholme and perform a longer test, maybe with a slower weapon and/or include a WWS report ? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated !

P.S.: I apologise if I'm missing out something obvious, for example a tendency for the Combat Log to lag from time to time regardless of my own connection.
#3319SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pvita
I am not sure Elmira, but in both cases you judged new JoWisdom on him. Could it be that this judgement will proc the mana gain from an old judgement on the target, if it was still up?
#3320SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
Well
It could be that the refresh itself can procc the judgement
that's the main issue. Considering the refresh and vindication are caused the same way (by your white hits) it's impossible to say wich one's creating double procs. The only way to check that for sure would be 6 hours of blasted lands mobs bashing with 0/3 vindication, and then the same sample with 1/3.
And, with the 80% JoW procs "issue" (yeah, I have a hard time considering that an issue) we apparently have even more strange stuff to find out.


Just another thing... people, seriously, this is EJ, not the official boards. Please try to not come up every two damn posts with "what's best stuff for that slot? what's best enchant there? what pots should I use? what rotation?"... This is getting seriously boring, and confusing a thread wich really didn't needed that.
#3321SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Also for anyone who wants to see if JoW is actually related to refreshing judgements
Try a test with a 2nd pally judging wisdom on and keeping it up(Dont use Crusader Strike), and you auto-attacking, and then
Try a test with you judging wisdom and keeping it up(You can use CS).

If refreshing judgements actually is proccing JoW, it should only take 5mins worth of swings to give us a result.
#3322SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Also for anyone who wants to see if JoW is actually related to refreshing judgements
Try a test with a 2nd pally judging wisdom on and keeping it up(Dont use Crusader Strike), and you auto-attacking, and then
Try a test with you judging wisdom and keeping it up(You can use CS).

If refreshing judgements actually is proccing JoW, it should only take 5mins worth of swings to give us a result.
#3323SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elmira
I am not sure Elmira, but in both cases you judged new JoWisdom on him. Could it be that this judgement will proc the mana gain from an old judgement on the target, if it was still up?
Every cast you see in the log is merely a refresh, just to clear that up. If what we're thinking is true, it would explain the enormous amount of mana gained by JoW, experienced by Flyingtoastr (I believe it was him) on Teron.

Considering the refresh and vindication are caused the same way (by your white hits) it's impossible to say wich one's creating double procs.
Well the former actually lands on the boss whereas the latter doesn't (we get a pretty message saying the mob is immune) and if you take a closer look at the lower screenshot there is no "Vindication failed" message which should be a good proof that it's not vindication proccing it. More like the recast of JoW.

I do agree however, that this requires alot more testing before any empiric statements can be formed.
#3324SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Had the same thing happen last night for our quick Hyjal run. We didn't get a full report for the whole night, but our Winterloot kill has me at a 70% proc rate again. Still no Vindication in the build.
#3325SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1xellos
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
I didn't forget SoB, my experience above is with SoB selected.

Additionally I get significantly different dps figures from Rawr and the spreadsheet while using the exact same gear and buffs/debuffs...
Don't forget to enter the buffs/debuffs that you would normally get. I had [Legguards of Endless Rage] be slightly better, while hitcapped, than [Leggings of Divine Retribution] until I remembered to click on buffs and debuffs.
#3326SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Alborak
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Also for anyone who wants to see if JoW is actually related to refreshing judgements
Try a test with a 2nd pally judging wisdom on and keeping it up(Dont use Crusader Strike), and you auto-attacking, and then
Try a test with you judging wisdom and keeping it up(You can use CS).

If refreshing judgments actually is proccing JoW, it should only take 5mins worth of swings to give us a result.
I plan on doing this tonight. Going to test:

Wisdom applied by me, Light up by other, using CS

Nothing applied by me, wisdom up & maintained by other. No CS
Nothing applied by me, wisdom up by other & maintained via CS.

JoTC applied by me, wisdom up & maintained by other, No CS.

If i'm missing any scenarios that could help explain what causes the high JoW proc rate, let me know. Or if i've messed these ones up. Also, i'm planning on using /combatlog & wws to see the data, if theres a more preferred route i can do that.
#3327SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elmira
I also did a short test on a Blasted Land's mob. I did in fact get a high amount of procs (definitely over 50% and only singular ones) which leads me to believe that perhaps there is a chance to receive mana back from either auto-attack or the refresh mechanic, however, it is not possible to get mana from both of them simultaneously, although that would somewhat deny my theory I had posted earlier...

Anyway, I'm very eager to see Alborak's results.
#3328SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Elmira View Post
I also did a short test on a Blasted Land's mob. I did in fact get a high amount of procs (definitely over 50% and only singular ones) which leads me to believe that perhaps there is a chance to receive mana back from either auto-attack or the refresh mechanic, however, it is not possible to get mana from both of them simultaneously, although that would somewhat deny my theory I had posted earlier...

Anyway, I'm very eager to see Alborak's results.
If there were two chances to proc JoW per hit (attack + some phantom spell, like judgement refresh), but JoW was limited to one proc per attack, then we'd expect to see 75% JoW proc rates (0.5 * 0.5 chance to have no proc) on average.


For people who see higher than expected proc rates, what's the average % chance to proc per attack?
#3329SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gyza
Wow, great info here. I am semi new to Ret since changing guilds. I do have a few questions (yes im still reading, this is a huge article).

1. Haste affects my procs per swing, not my procs per minute. Basically my white damage is going up, my SoC damage is staying the same over that 1 minute. Is this correct?
2. If that is correct, are there any items that stand out that I should focus on getting first? Here is my armory..
The World of Warcraft Armory . I do not have access to TK/SSC/MH/BT yet. New guild is clearing Kara / some of ZA / and starting Gruuls/Mag next week. So with that consideration in mind what do you think?
3. I have done an advanced search on good specs. I have done google searches, and it just is all over the place. Some say 5/11/45, some say 5/8/48 and yet others have said 5/0/56. I have tried them all, but would like some battle tested advice perhaps in the later dungeons of what you use.
4. The whole SoC rank 1 rank 6 debate was interesting. I definately have more mana when I used Rank 1. However, being a paladin I am trying to squeeze every last bit of dps as I can. So are there any other tricks out there. ATM I am guzzling down mana pots like candy, and still cant keep my mana good on a long fight. Is that normal, or are there other things I can do? I have my old healing trinket (no upgrade as of yet) and it gives me some nice int and the mana regen, which i spam any rank 1 I have that does dps as to try and get the ticks up. This has helpled, but Shard of Contempt and DMCC are comming, so that I cannot relly on for much longer.

If anyone could help me out with all or even some of this I would be greatful.
#3330SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1makotospeaks
question about the Rawr program, although this may be the wrong place for it...is there a way for you to plug in currently available content..and then have it optimize a set of gear you should aim for from said content?
#3331SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Originally Posted by makotospeaks View Post
question about the Rawr program, although this may be the wrong place for it...is there a way for you to plug in currently available content..and then have it optimize a set of gear you should aim for from said content?
Absolutely. Mark the diamond next to each item/gem/enchant available to you, in the charts, then use Tools > Optimize.
#3332SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1makotospeaks
thats good idea, i guess i was asking if i could be lazier and check a box or three that said "Kara, Grull, Mags, SSC are all available content for me" as opposed to sorting through the items for the drops that come from each location.
#3333SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Gyza View Post
1. Haste affects my procs per swing, not my procs per minute. Basically my white damage is going up, my SoC damage is staying the same over that 1 minute. Is this correct?
2. If that is correct, are there any items that stand out that I should focus on getting first? Here is my armory..
The World of Warcraft Armory . I do not have access to TK/SSC/MH/BT yet. New guild is clearing Kara / some of ZA / and starting Gruuls/Mag next week. So with that consideration in mind what do you think?
3. I have done an advanced search on good specs. I have done google searches, and it just is all over the place. Some say 5/11/45, some say 5/8/48 and yet others have said 5/0/56. I have tried them all, but would like some battle tested advice perhaps in the later dungeons of what you use.
4. The whole SoC rank 1 rank 6 debate was interesting. I definately have more mana when I used Rank 1. However, being a paladin I am trying to squeeze every last bit of dps as I can. So are there any other tricks out there. ATM I am guzzling down mana pots like candy, and still cant keep my mana good on a long fight. Is that normal, or are there other things I can do? I have my old healing trinket (no upgrade as of yet) and it gives me some nice int and the mana regen, which i spam any rank 1 I have that does dps as to try and get the ticks up. This has helpled, but Shard of Contempt and DMCC are comming, so that I cannot relly on for much longer.

If anyone could help me out with all or even some of this I would be greatful.

1. Yes. Haste only affects your white damage for alliance.

2. Use wowhead and rawr to figure out upgrades. Keep 95 hit rating (you could gain dps by losing 9 hit rating over the cap for something more useful). Get +4 stats on both your rings instead of +2 weapon damage. What's with the +int trinket? Get something useful in there.

3. 5/8/48 is the only spec for top PvE damage. Your spec is fine.

4. Use rank 6 SoC, you want every little bit of damage you can squeeze out, there's no point in using anything else especially with the 80% Sanctified Judgement now. The no.1 mana returning ability for us is JoW on the mob, let a holy paladin put it, always have your shammy drop mana spring. Lose the int trinket.
#3334SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
DarKNecross
I want to discuss something that was only talked about regarding the set bonus - Hammer of Wrath usage. Most people dismissed the idea as bad and saying it lowered your DPS, which it only does if you're not being smart about using it.
Let me explain. The most common reason people say HoW is bad is because it resets you swing timer. While it does reset your swing, so does Slam which is why you need to use it at the very end of your swing before the next one starts. The damage isn't horrific on it either (even though it doesn't scale with our gear). Ignoring whether or not you've got the 4P bonus, the average damage is 700. After the coefficient from JotC, it's 788. With modifiers (vengeance, misery, crusade, sanc, imp sanc) it's about 1100 damage. This is assuming you have no Spell Damage. I'm going to use the example of an Alliance Paladin using Torch of the Damned without any other Haste (so a 3.68sec swing).
People say you lose swings with Hammer of Wrath, which is an exaggeration, assuming you can use it properly. Using it at the end of your swing every time would delay each swing by 0.5sec. In order to lose a 3.68sec swing, you'd need to use HoW about 7 times. I'll come back to this in a second.
You're not going to use it every 6 seconds, because that would be bad for DPS. Here's a short example of what it should look like:
Swing ---> HoW ---> Swing ---> Swing --->  HoW  ---> Swing
   0  ---> 3.68 ---> 7.86 ---> 11.54 ---> 11.54 ---> 15.72
So you'd use it about once every 8 seconds. Going back to losing a swing every 7 HoW's, if you're doing 1 every 8 seconds it'll take you 56 seconds to lose a swing. Taking Brutallus as my example, 56sec after you hit 20% means the fight is just about over, so 1 swing is lost sub-20%.
If we're doing 1100 damage every 8seconds, assuming you're at 40% crit (of course, only using 7 HoW's might skew results to be really low or really high), it's about 10,800 damage (193dps). I highly doubt one swing would add up to 10,800 damage.

So Hammer of Wrath isn't bad for DPS, and it's better Damage and less mana than max rank Consecration.
As for cooldown usage, HoW would be prioritized under Crusader Strike, and above all other skills.

Last edited by DarKNecross : 04/11/08 at 7:58 PM.
#3335SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
This actually grew out of my last post, but it's unrelated.
Basically, I'm going to try and define Skill Usage priority assuming you're going to have 2 abilities come up at the same time (which is almost inevitable).
It depends on how often you use the ability and how much damage it does. (Note: Crusader Strike damage differs from player to player based on Weapon/Gear. I'm just going to use this WWS report to base the damage on.) Here are the main ones: (Average Normal+Crit damage assuming 40% crit)
  • Crusader Strike: 2,318 Damage, 6sec CD (386dps)
  • Hammer of Wrath(Rank 4): 1,540 Damage, 6sec CD (257dps)
  • Judgement of Blood: 1,544 Damage, 8sec CD (193dps)
  • Judgement of Command: 1,242 Damage, 8sec CD (155dps)
  • Consecration(Rank 6): 1,006 Damage, 8sec CD (126dps)
  • Consecration(Rank 4): 682 Damage, 8sec CD (85dps)
  • Exorcism(Rank 7): 1,045 Damage, 15sec CD (70dps)
  • Consecration(Rank 1): 381 Damage, 8sec CD (48dps)

Of course, you're not going to be able to use all of these abilities on their cooldown every time due to rotations and GCD, but you get the general picture of which should be used over which.
#3336SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
I highly doubt one swing would add up to 10,800 damage.
White + SoC? White + SoC + WF?


There's 4 major flaws with your theorycraft.

The first one is a practical one:

In effect, if I understand you correctly, you're saying you'd use 7x HoW over 56 seconds, using 3080 mana (7x 440) for the cost of 1 swing.

So it's 10800 damage over 56 seconds vs 1 swing which might go anywhere between 2k - 10k, for the cost of ~3.1k mana.

That sounds like a very bad deal to me, if you have that much mana at the end to blow on HoW + keeping up your normal rotation, then you're already doing something wrong the other 80% of the fight.


The second flaw is based on your assumptions:

You're assuming no haste gear, which is pretty biased, since whether you're stacking it or not, you'll get some as you upgrade due to how gear is itemized in Sunwell especially.

I'm not going for any haste gear and already my current gear has 124 haste, simply because most 2.4 plate dps items have haste on them (like our T6 wrists/belt/boots). The set I'm aiming for is again not made to stack haste at all, it would have 0 haste if I could, but it will have ~270 passive haste rating simply as a byproduct.

That and drums. We started using them extensively in my guild in the melee group and others, setting up rotations and what not. Basically with 4 people with drums you have a constant +80 haste rating and you need to go into such extremes for Brutallus for example.

That's "a lot" of haste any way you cut it, throwing your "swings lost" completely out of whack.


The third one is:

The popular comparison to Slam rotations is a flawed one simply because the assumed parallels are actually anything but that.

Slams hit for a lot more than HoW. Delaying white hits is only half as bad for warriors than it is for us, since for us delaying a white hit also means you reduce your SoC procs per minute.



Those three flaws aside, the final and most critical flaw is:

It is not possible to only lose 0.5 secs (the cast time of HoW) of each swing. Even if you're a robot with no human reaction time, there's still latency to consider. Assuming a very low latency connection and perfect timing, the absolute minimum you will lose is at least 0.5 secs cast time + 0.5 sec latency/human reaction time.

Now we're talking about a "minimum" of 1 sec lost per swing, which further throws things out of whack.




Sorry I'd be the first one to jump on this if it actually was something substantial, but the way I see it, HoW is pretty much always a dps loss (as discussed a few dozen pages back).

Last edited by Avitus : 04/11/08 at 7:47 PM.
#3337SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Theras
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Going back to losing a swing every 7 HoW's, if you're doing 1 every 8 seconds it'll take you 56 seconds to lose a swing. Taking Brutallus as my example, 56sec after you hit 20% means the fight is just about over, so 1 swing is lost sub-20%.
If we're doing 1100 damage every 8seconds, assuming you're at 40% crit (of course, only using 7 HoW's might skew results to be really low or really high), it's about 10,800 damage (193dps). I highly doubt one swing would add up to 10,800 damage.

So Hammer of Wrath isn't bad for DPS, and it's better Damage and less mana than max rank Consecration.
As for cooldown usage, HoW would be prioritized under Crusader Strike, and above all other skills.
Let's try this using real world numbers.

Last week on Teron Gorefiend my average weapon swing was 2068.55 damage, and my average Seal of Command proc was 2099.10. I'll get an average of 19.57 weapon swings (including Windfury) and 7 Seal of Command procs in a minute, for a total of 55 175.22 damage. So every 0.5 seconds, I deal 459.79 damage from swinging.

After modifiers, my Hammer of Wrath does an average of 1433.67 damage over 0.5 seconds. Subtracting the 459.79 lost from auto swinging, it ends up at 973.88 damage per Hammer of Wrath (or 121.74 DPS if used every 8 seconds, like in your example). Consecration also does 122 DPS, without requiring laser precise reaction times or the target to be below 20% health. Specifically, the effective DPS of Hammer of Wrath drops by 11.5 for every 0.1 seconds that you are late on casting.

I'd absolutely agree with you that Hammer of Wrath would be a great skill like Slam, if it did damage like Slam does (weapon damage plus 140 over 0.5 seconds). Like for example, say it did 70% of weapon damage as Holy Damage; a Seal of Command proc on demand, if you will. You would need to be off on your timing by nearly a second for it to be less powerful than using Consecration, which is true for Slam as well. That's why Slam is great and Hammer of Wrath is not: we've only got a finite amount of mana in a fight, and it's always going to be better to go with guaranteed damage (with Consecration) over something that turns into a relative loss if you blink (Hammer of Wrath).
#3338SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarKNecross
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
White + SoC? White + SoC + WF?
There's 4 major flaws with your theorycraft.
The first one is a practical one:
In effect, if I understand you correctly, you're saying you'd use 7x HoW over 56 seconds, using 3080 mana (7x 440) for the cost of 1 swing.
So it's 10800 damage over 56 seconds vs 1 swing which might go anywhere between 2k - 10k, for the cost of ~3.1k mana.
That sounds like a very bad deal to me, if you have that much mana at the end to blow on HoW + keeping up your normal rotation, then you're already doing something wrong the other 80% of the fight.
The second flaw is based on your assumptions:
You're assuming no haste gear, which is a pretty biased, since whether you're stacking it or not, you'll get some as you upgrade due to how gear is itemized in Sunwell especially.
I'm not going for any haste gear and already my current gear has 124 haste, simply because most 2.4 plate dps items have haste on them (like our T6 wrists/belt/boots). The set I'm aiming for is again not made to stack haste at all, it would have 0 haste if I could, but it will have ~270 passive haste rating simply as a byproduct.
That and drums. We started using them extensively in my guild in the melee group and others, setting up rotations and what not. Basically with 4 people with drums you have a constant +80 haste rating and you need to go into such extremes for Brutallus for example.
That's "a lot" of haste any way you cut it, throwing your "swings lost" completely out of whack.
The third one is:
The popular comparison to Slam rotations is a flawed one simply because the assumed parallels are actually anything but that.
Slams hit for a lot more than HoW. Delaying white hits is only half as bad for warriors than it is for us, since delaying a white hit also means you reduce your SoC procs.
Those three flaws asside, the final and most critical flaw is:
It is not possible to only lose 0.5 secs (the cast time of HoW) of each swing. Even if you're a robot with no human reaction time, there's still latency to consider. Assuming a very low latency connection and perfect timing, the absolute minimum you will lose is at least 0.5 secs cast time + 0.5 sec latency/human reaction time.
Now we're talking about a "minimum" of 1 sec lost per swing, which further throws things out of whack.
Sorry I'd be the first one to jump on this if it actually was something substantial, but the way I see it, HoW is pretty much always a dps loss (as discussed a few dozen pages back).
Assuming Apolyon with the 350 passive Haste, that makes it a 2.72spd weapon. So the numbers change.
Swing ---> HoW ---> Swing ---> Swing --->  HoW  ---> Swing
   0  ---> 2.72 ---> 6.44 ---> 9.16 ---> 9.16 ---> 12.88
So you'd use it closer to every 6.5sec. If you assume the 1sec extra for each HoW, then you lose a swing every 3 HoW's, or every 19.5sec. Taking Brutallus again, that's 3 swings maximum, so I guess if you're swinging a 3.5spd weapon almost 23% faster, Hammer of Wrath would be less. I was actually more concerned people dismissed it without doing thorough math on it.
#3339SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Chirality
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

Those three flaws aside, the final and most critical flaw is:

It is not possible to only lose 0.5 secs (the cast time of HoW) of each swing. Even if you're a robot with no human reaction time, there's still latency to consider. Assuming a very low latency connection and perfect timing, the absolute minimum you will lose is at least 0.5 secs cast time + 0.5 sec latency/human reaction time.

Now we're talking about a "minimum" of 1 sec lost per swing, which further throws things out of whack.
To throw out a more real-world number, I average about 0.3 seconds wasted per slam attempt (measured using my own modified Swing.lua from Quartz)....And I've been Slamming after every attack for a very long time. When I really focus I can average 0.2 seconds wasted per slam attempt...but that comes with a 5+% chance to slam too early (thus missing 3+seconds of a swing) if Windfury Totem is involved.
#3340SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
I was actually more concerned people dismissed it without doing thorough math on it.
10 or so pages again there was math done on it. HoW is a PvP or running mob in PvE spell only.
#3341SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Yep, +0.5 sec cast time you're talking about a loss of 0.7 - 0.8 sec each swing, which is closer to my predicted 1 sec minimum than 0.5 sec optimum.

What sort of latency do you have? If you have anything in the region of 200 ms (which is very normal for many people european servers), there's the last 0.2 secs left to fill my 1 sec estimate
#3342SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gyza
Thank you for the reply Avitus. I finally got Rawr working (had to keep starting it to get rid of the red X) and it is pretty useful. I did put the +4 on my ring after I made the message, and my other ring will be had Saturday night when I get 7 more badges. As far as the trinket, I donot have another dps trinket yet. So it is use that one, or use the Medallion of the Alliance. Figured mana would be better then getting out of CC in the raids we do atm. But yes, I am looking to upgrade that to the Shard of Contempt. Just need it to drop.
#3343SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eetabeetay
Anyone know if Omen is bugged for SoB threat right now? From some testing it seems to be adding the damage our ret pally does to himself as generating threat. I'm fairly sure this is an Omen bug, but I would like to hear some other feedback to see if this might be a weird boss mechanic or something.
#3344SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
A quick question, I'm using a 5/8/48, what is the appropriate amount of hit rating to have to have the equivalent of 142 hit rating with out precision in order to avoid glancing blows?
#3345SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dram
Its 95 hit rating and its to eliminate the chance to miss, hit doesn't effect glancing blows.
#3346SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Holtzhammer
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Had the same thing happen last night for our quick Hyjal run. We didn't get a full report for the whole night, but our Winterloot kill has me at a 70% proc rate again. Still no Vindication in the build.
Is your "arcane strike" attack effecting your JoW proc rate somehow? Its the only "extra" thing I could see possibly effecting it.

*at a loss*
#3347SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Holtzhammer View Post
Is your "arcane strike" attack effecting your JoW proc rate somehow? Its the only "extra" thing I could see possibly effecting it.

*at a loss*
It can't be just the neck, as I had to switch my SSO neck with my SR neck for Mother and I still had an abnormally large proc rate.
#3348SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Andrj
Originally Posted by Eetabeetay View Post
Anyone know if Omen is bugged for SoB threat right now? From some testing it seems to be adding the damage our ret pally does to himself as generating threat. I'm fairly sure this is an Omen bug, but I would like to hear some other feedback to see if this might be a weird boss mechanic or something.
Quite possibly. The same happens with DPS meters like Violation and Recount. The difference is "minor" though, I calculated it some weeks ago when I did 1450 dps on a Teron fight (with a shit weapon, no laughing at my dps!) and found out that SoB self-damage was about 50 of that dps. I mailed the Violation creator about it, but got no reply.
#3349SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Semadin
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
The most common reason people say HoW is bad is because it resets you swing timer. While it does reset your swing...Using it at the end of your swing every time would delay each swing by 0.5sec.

I'm confused. You all talk about HoW "resetting" the swing timer, but then calculate it as if it is only delaying the swing timer.

My understanding was, when you cast HoW, no matter how far into your swing timer you were, you would then have to wait the entire swing time again before another swing.

So if you have a swing time of 3.5, you cast HoW at 3.4, you would then have another 3.5 before a swing (so casting HoW at that time would make your total time between swings 6.9).

The way you explain it, it sounds like if you cast HoW at 3.4, then you would swing at 4.0 (just adding 0.5 to the swing time) which isn't "resetting" the swing timer.

Which way does it actually work?
#3350SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Semadin View Post
I'm confused. You all talk about HoW "resetting" the swing timer, but then calculate it as if it is only delaying the swing timer.

My understanding was, when you cast HoW, no matter how far into your swing timer you were, you would then have to wait the entire swing time again before another swing.

So if you have a swing time of 3.5, you cast HoW at 3.4, you would then have another 3.5 before a swing (so casting HoW at that time would make your total time between swings 6.9).

The way you explain it, it sounds like if you cast HoW at 3.4, then you would swing at 4.0 (just adding 0.5 to the swing time) which isn't "resetting" the swing timer.

Which way does it actually work?
Hammer of Wrath does reset the swing timer, just like any ability with a cast time (and some without). If you were going to use HoW you use it directly following an autoswing, at T=0.

So your normal swing rotation would look like:
Swing (T=0) --------------- Swing (T=3.8)

If you wanted to use HoW it would look like so:
Swing (T=0), Begin HoW (T=0) -- Finish HoW (T=.5) --------------- Swing (T=4.3)

If you absolutely screw up entirely (in which case you need to go back to DPS 101) and cast HoW 3 seconds after an autoswing you'll be looking at this:
Swing (T=0) ------------ Begin HoW (T=3) -- Finish HoW (T=3.5) --------------- Swing (T=7.3)

For all intents and purposes, if you are going to theoretically use HoW you will be timing it to start casting directly following an autoswing, in which case it acts just like a .5 second pushback to the swing timer. In reality its more like a .75-1 second pushback due to latency.

For all theorycraft regarding HoW pushback and reset are entirely interchangeable because of the nature of how you time the ability.
#3351SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Semadin
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Hammer of Wrath does reset the swing timer, just like any ability with a cast time (and some without). If you were going to use HoW you use it directly following an autoswing, at T=0.

So your normal swing rotation would look like:
Swing (T=0) --------------- Swing (T=3.8)

If you wanted to use HoW it would look like so:
Swing (T=0), Begin HoW (T=0) -- Finish HoW (T=.5) --------------- Swing (T=4.3)

If you absolutely screw up entirely (in which case you need to go back to DPS 101) and cast HoW 3 seconds after an autoswing you'll be looking at this:
Swing (T=0) ------------ Begin HoW (T=3) -- Finish HoW (T=3.5) --------------- Swing (T=7.3)

For all intents and purposes, if you are going to theoretically use HoW you will be timing it to start casting directly following an autoswing, in which case it acts just like a .5 second pushback to the swing timer. In reality its more like a .75-1 second pushback due to latency.

For all theorycraft regarding HoW pushback and reset are entirely interchangeable because of the nature of how you time the ability.

That's what I thought - so now I am completely confused on the discussion further up regarding making HoW useful. It seems like the only way to make it useful would be to macro a cast that only works within X amount of time _after_ swinging. For example, you cast it .1 after swing, which would add 0.6 to your swing for an additional ~1100 damage.
#3352SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Semadin View Post
That's what I thought - so now I am completely confused on the discussion further up regarding making HoW useful. It seems like the only way to make it useful would be to macro a cast that only works within X amount of time _after_ swinging. For example, you cast it .1 after swing, which would add 0.6 to your swing for an additional ~1100 damage.
Well as long as you're smart and paying attention its really not difficult to time it correctly (my main alt is a BF Arms Warrior so I've had a lot of practice with Slam rotations).

The reasoning you've outlined is the main reason Hammer of Wrath is so worthless in 98% of raid situations (though I do enjoy using it on cooldown during phase 2 Illidan since mana isn't a real concern on that fight). Unless the ability was changed to either not reset the swing timer or scale with weapon damage (I'm a personal fan of the second, making it like Slam would make the ability very powerful) it is not worth using.
#3353SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Seventity
SoC and haste

Hello.

I have been looking through this topic quite thoroughly few months back to confirm or deny claim of my friend that SoC proc chance is based on weapon normal speed and not hasted one. I am pretty sure I have found a post with detailed, long and almost 100% accurate in-game test supporting my own assumption that SoC unfortunately will use hasted speed for PPM proc calculation.

However, now when I need that post again, I can't find it. I've just scanned this threat from page 60 till here, so I've either missed it, it was deleted/edited or I've drank too much that day ;-). Could someone perhaps help me somehow, providing a link to that post or any other accurate test?

Thanks in advance.
#3354SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samiel
SoC is affected by hasted speed, it is a 7 PPM ability, no matter the weapon you swing with, and how hasted it is.
#3355SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Seventity
Originally Posted by Samiel View Post
SoC is affected by hasted speed, it is a 7 PPM ability, no matter the weapon you swing with, and how hasted it is.
Thank you for answering and in fact it's what I've been seeing and hearing everywhere around and what I've noticed myself. However, I need some hard proof for that, meaning an actual thorough long test made by someone, possibly with WWS parsed log.
#3356SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rizso
Heard much about this 9% needed hit for capping with a 2hander BUT! I have 86 hitrating thats 9 less then the cap, still i havent seen any misses in the raids i have been in. So i started to investigate it... Checked WWS reports for longer fights.

Sallysue, 84 hitrating, 5.33% hit. 22 kalecgos tries & 10 brut tries + Trash. 13 misses out of 3810 hits, do relise sob and JoB is counted 2times in wws so so excluding it. Swing is missing 8 times out of 948 hits and crusader strike 4 misses out of 303 hits.
Sallysue - WWS


Assume from personal and wws i see sacrificing stats to reach 9% or more hit doesnt seem to be worth it even if can miss in some cases. As long as keeping it a few rating above 80 the total amount of hits will be so much that the miss change is nt there.

The cap seem to be 9% but when having over 8.3% and higher geting the illuision that i never misses as we attack so low amount of attacks per fight, maybe 60 - 90 auto attacks in a 6min fight. Looking at wws and personal testing it doesnt seem to be worth using a hit gem instead of str gem to get hit capped.

Doesnt seem to worth killing stats to get theoreticly increases damage that doesnt apply to each boss fight. Anyone else have had this experiance?
#3357SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
The closer you get to the hit cap without actually reaching it will of course reduce the number of misses you see dramatically, but they will still be there at some point even if it's only one swing in a hundred missing.

If you raid with 94 hit rating (and Precision) then you would see a miss only once in a blue moon (on average).

Given how easy it is to be hit-capped for Ret though I can't really see any reason why you wouldn't want to be. Don't forget the +20 hit food as well, [Spicy Hot Talbuk].

If you can get your hands on [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] and slap a [Glyph of Ferocity] on it that puts you over 1/2 way towards the hit cap with only a single item, for example.
#3358SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
The difference between 1% miss and 0% miss is big though.

Though statistically you'll be getting 1 miss every 100 swings, it practice you never have enough swings on any given boss fight to average it out like that. In reality you can have good nights with the RNG like Sallysue and get very few misses, and you can have horrible luck and see a long string of misses. Could you push a couple more theoretical DPS by staying under the hit cap? Sure. But why take the risk that the RNG will screw you over the one time it matters?

And for future reference, you can't use a full report for support since it factors in trash mobs, which are lower level than bosses and thus have a lower hit cap.
#3359SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Lets take one of the attempts with misses in them:

Brutallus try 3 (~3.8M dmg)

You had 1 swing miss (white + SoB) and 1 CS miss:


The average damage for your white swings was: 2440 dmg (average 1431 dmg hits, average 3449 dmg crits)
The average damage for your SoB procs was: 997 dmg (average 365 dmg hits, average 1589 dmg crits)
The average damage for your CS was: 2686.5 dmg (average 1839 dmg hits, average 3534 dmg crits)

So in that try, a total of 6123.5 damage (average) was lost due to not being hit capped.


Now if you switch a 10 Str gem to a 10 hit gem, you can almost 0 the chance that you'd lose that damage (well you'd be 1 hit rating off).

In return, you lose 24.2 AP with talents/bok.

How much damage is 24.2 AP compared to an average total loss of 6123.5 dmg?


There's a reason +hit is the most valuable stat until capped for ret paladins.



Also all the results from trash are irrelevant as the trash mobs are mostly level 70 (where you would only need 5% hit not to miss) with the exception of the level 72 robots.


Edit: Damn beating to it, at least mine had more info! :P
#3360SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
Originally Posted by Dram View Post
Its 95 hit rating and its to eliminate the chance to miss, hit doesn't effect glancing blows.
Ok, thanks, apparently i was mis-informed
#3361SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Khaelarys
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
It can't be just the neck, as I had to switch my SSO neck with my SR neck for Mother and I still had an abnormally large proc rate.
Speaking of, I noticed you're still using the SSO neck over your previous - you mentioned before that you would report on your experience using that neck - any thoughts?
#3362SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
My rogue buddies who live and die by the rogue forum here say the cap is (if you want to be REALLY exact) 94.8 hit rating. If you want to ensure cap, 95 is the way to go.

I agree with avitus that being hit capped is extremely important, but keep in mind if you're only 1-2 rating off the cap, going way over it for an item/gem switch (such as a 10 hit gem) will actually result in a DPS loss. Best answer is to just use Rawr or the spreadsheet ;D
#3363SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Never go above it yes
#3364SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Antiock
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The average damage for your SoB procs was: 997 dmg (average 365 dmg hits, average 1589 dmg crits)
One thing to keep in mind is that reports are a little screwy when it comes to Seal of Blood. Specifically, it adds on the reflected damage to your total but counts it as an extra hit. This inflates the overall SoB damage by 10%, but also dramatically decreases its average damage. So if you have a SoB hit for 1000, and it reflects 100 damage back to you, it'll say your average SoB hit is for 550. I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with JoB.

This doesn't really affect the point you were making, just something to be aware of when looking at SoB reports.
#3365SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
Speaking of, I noticed you're still using the SSO neck over your previous - you mentioned before that you would report on your experience using that neck - any thoughts?
From a scryer's perspective it is an upgrade over [Pendant of the Perilous]. The Arcane Strike can proc off white swings, Crusader Strike, Judgement, and Hammer of Wrath (don't ask how I know the last one) and I would assume Seal of Command/Blood (though I can't test this since it could be coming from either the white swing or the seal for any attack). It also takes both melee crit and melee avoidance (so hit/expertise capped means it always hits) and doesn't seem to be partially resistable. The best part is that it gets the percentage modifiers for AW, Misery, Curse of Shadows and Improved Sanctity Aura, so it hits for a good 450 non crit. It also procs almost on cooldown, which is great considering our "slow" attack speed.

All in all it was worth the gold, though I would still replace it with a [Choker of Endless Nightmares] if we ever get one to drop (fun with RNG: in 5+ months of farming BT we have had zero drop).

EDIT: Anyone tried out the new [Righteous Weapon Coating] yet? Obviously you wouldn't use it if you have a shaman, but for those few times that you don't is it better than a Sharpening Stone?

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 2:51 PM.
#3366SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dram
Yea, I have been playing around with the weapon coating and it seems to be up almost all the time for me. I find it to be much better then any sharpening/weightstones I can find for doing the dailies on the Isle.
#3367SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lyconn
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
From a scryer's perspective it is an upgrade over [Pendant of the Perilous]. The Arcane Strike can proc off white swings, Crusader Strike, Judgement, and Hammer of Wrath (don't ask how I know the last one) and I would assume Seal of Command/Blood (though I can't test this since it could be coming from either the white swing or the seal for any attack). It also takes both melee crit and melee avoidance (so hit/expertise capped means it always hits) and doesn't seem to be partially resistable. The best part is that it gets the percentage modifiers for AW, Misery, Curse of Shadows and Improved Sanctity Aura, so it hits for a good 450 non crit. It also procs almost on cooldown, which is great considering our "slow" attack speed.

All in all it was worth the gold, though I would still replace it with a [Choker of Endless Nightmares] if we ever get one to drop (fun with RNG: in 5+ months of farming BT we have had zero drop).

EDIT: Anyone tried out the new [Righteous Weapon Coating] yet? Obviously you wouldn't use it if you have a shaman, but for those few times that you don't is it better than a Sharpening Stone?
Regarding if it procs off of white dmg only or if it works from seals too. I have not tested this thoroughly but I have noticed (via Scrolling Combat Text and combat logs) that the proc does vary. What I mean is that sometimes it shows up directly after the white dmg and sometimes it shows up after the seal dmg is applied as well. I don't know if this has anything to do with what is proccing off of or if it just the variance of when the damage actually registers. Like I said I have not proven this but I intend to pay more attention to it and see if i can come up with some solid results.
#3368SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
I have heard that a lot of people are picking up Leatherworking now that a lot of the Sunwell fights are burn fights. Has anyone done this? Im considering dropping Herbing and picking up LW.

In addition to the haste drums, the chestpeice is very good in comparison to some of the Sunwell drops.

Last edited by Saltycracker : Yesterday at 4:49 PM.
#3369SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
All in all it was worth the gold, though I would still replace it with a [Choker of Endless Nightmares] if we ever get one to drop (fun with RNG: in 5+ months of farming BT we have had zero drop).
Funny thing is I've passed on this too many times than I can count, to offspecs and what not. It might have even been sharded a few times.

Since the Sunwell gear was announce and the extreme lack of hit on the plate pieces, it hasn't dropped once... now that I really need it.

Already had to switch out my [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] for my old [Ring of Deceitful Intent] when I got the new T6 belt (old belt had +hit).




Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I have heard that a lot of people are picking up Leatherworking now that a lot of the Sunwell fights are burn fights. Has anyone done this? Im considering dropping Herbing and picking up LW.

In addition to the haste drums, the chestpeice is very good in comparison to some of the Sunwell drops.

Well, Leatherworking is the end all raid DPS buff atm with drums. On Brutallus you pretty much have to have a lot of people with it and running rotations in order to pump out the required dps.

I've just dropped Enchanting for LW myself (and yea when I'm crazy enought to drop it, get enchanting again, then get LW again when I upgrade my last DPS ring >.> to get +4stats on [Band of Ruinous Delight] when it drops).
#3370SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nemcova
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Funny thing is I've passed on this too many times than I can count, to offspecs and what not. It might have even been sharded a few times.

Since the Sunwell gear was announce and the extreme lack of hit on the plate pieces, it hasn't dropped once... now that I really need it.

Already had to switch out my [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] for my old [Ring of Deceitful Intent] when I got the new T6 belt (old belt had +hit).
im in the same boat. Im using red belt of battle and dreadboots. But when i replace em with T6 from sunwell. i need to make up the hit somewhere else. Im looking into getting Stormrage Signet and the engineering helm from sunwell to make up for it. but. who knows. i hate looking for hit again!
#3371SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Actually considering keeping Dreadboots for the hit. Especially since you don't need the expertise from the T6 boots if you're human and have wrist/belt and shard of contempt
#3372SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
All in all it was worth the gold, though I would still replace it with a [Choker of Endless Nightmares] if we ever get one to drop (fun with RNG: in 5+ months of farming BT we have had zero drop).
Armory me and take a look at my boots. 6.5 months and going, ROS will not drop Dreadboots. I wish I had it easymode like arena players... build up points and just buy what I want
#3373SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nemcova
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Armory me and take a look at my boots. 6.5 months and going, ROS will not drop Dreadboots. I wish I had it easymode like arena players... build up points and just buy what I want
yea that sucks.. that thing is atrocious.
#3374SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Azu
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Armory me and take a look at my boots. 6.5 months and going, ROS will not drop Dreadboots. I wish I had it easymode like arena players... build up points and just buy what I want
I've always sympathized with you as you were the model for my own gear set. My pair dropped after about 3.5 months of using Vindicator's. At least this sets you up for T6 boots whereas I'll be stuck with the Dreadboots until I work up the courage to resocket +hit gems.
#3375SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ayreon
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I have heard that a lot of people are picking up Leatherworking now that a lot of the Sunwell fights are burn fights. Has anyone done this? I

I have.
It's well worth it, trust me.
#3376SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
EDIT: Anyone tried out the new [Righteous Weapon Coating] yet? Obviously you wouldn't use it if you have a shaman, but for those few times that you don't is it better than a Sharpening Stone?
This is the best oil to use on a weapon. It can proc off all melee attacks, so auto, CS, and Seals, and it averages out to about 75 attack power due to the 45 second cooldown.
#3377SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Delete me.
#3378SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
This is the best oil to use on a weapon. It can proc off all melee attacks, so auto, CS, and Seals, and it averages out to about 75 attack power due to the 45 second cooldown.
Actually, I do not think that there is a 45 sec. cooldown on the oil, while I was doing my dailies, I noticed that I gained the rightousness buff for 10 seconds, then I let it fade, so that ab out 2-3 seconds after I killed the mob, I took 5 seconds to run to the next one and during that fight, it procced again, so there is no 45 sec cooldown, unless mine was bugged or they changed it.
#3379SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Thanks

This has been one of my greatest aids in determining how to gear my paladin, thank you for the insight into a disturbingly misunderstood spec.

That being said I am on my third post bc guild and am finally being given the chance to roll ret for raids. I am always looking for ways to increase my dps in order to completely validate my raid spot when I am able to raid ret. (Unfortunately I still have to respec. holy most nights do to a lack of competent healers.) This threads many contributors have confirmed my own beliefs and given me new ideas. However I have been confused lately by some of the discrepancies between belators spread sheet, rawr, and max dps. Max dps I can assume is the least reliable of the three, but which of the other two is the most reliable atm? I am leaning toward rawr at the moment, but would like to hear how others feel.

As well if anyone would like to take the time to look at my current gear and give me any tips/advice on my selections, or suggest important pieces of gear I should be striving to get asap I would appreciate the help. (at the moment I am under hit cap with [Furious Shackles] on or over hit cap with [Bracers of Eradication] so I typically switch between the two from trash to boss, but I am considering using my [Netherforce Chestplate] piece over my merc chest to get the hit.)
#3380SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pereg
I've recently converted to ret from being long time holy spec'd too. This thread has been an awesome resource for me and can't wait til its wiki version!

From the looks of it I think people are wanting to move past the gear check questions. But I'll tell you, RAWR is an absolutely incredible tool. I've learned how to use it inside and out. I've built my gear roadmap on it and its working out great so far! I ended up 4th in damage done, 3rd in dps on our first Gurtogg kill last night! And I really don't have much gear from raid drops.

Once you become expert with RAWR, I think you'll find you might should have gemed your new legplates a bit differently. Seems your current armory is what you are pvp'ing in so I can't tell for sure your true raid gear. Go find someone to make [Red Belt of Battle]. Put your AP gem in that, re-gem your legplates to what RAWR says.

Other things I notice, get the Dexterity enchant for your boots. If you are short on hit rating, maybe use [Spicy Hot Talbuk] for boss fights with your Shackles or use [Roasted Clefthoof] with your Eradication Bracers. RAWR will tell you which is the best setup. Again you can play around with your buffs, enchants, different scenario's, everything in RAWR and it'll show you how valuable one piece of gear is over another or how valuable your gem choices are. Good luck!
#3381SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trigunflame
About to start Brutallus as Ret & wondering which would most likely net more DPS due to Mana Usage:
ps. (Possibly using Assassin's Alchemist Stone for more effective mana pots.)

1. CS, JoC, r6 Consecrate, r7 Exorcism, chaining Fel Mana Pots
2. CS, JoC, r1 Consecrate, r7 Exorcism, chaining Haste Pots
#3382SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Mana Pots for alliance. We discussed this a few pages back if you want details.
#3383SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Pereg View Post
If you are short on hit rating, maybe use [Spicy Hot Talbuk] for boss fights w

This is a dangerous tactic, which I try to avoid. On progression encounters, it's highly probable that you could die... and you can't eat another if you get Battle-Ressed, pretty much screwing you on dps. Just my two cents... it's certainly a possibly solution, but one that I wouldn't rely too heavily upon.
#3384SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
Glancing Blows

A rogue in my guild asked about reducing his losses from glancing blows and someone else replied with this link to WoW Wikki, Glancing blow - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Is this dated? It pretty much implies "you're screwed". I was under the impression that the new chunks of expertise on new set gear would reduce glancing blows as well as dodge. We are of course, concerned about Brutallus. Given that glancing blows are white damage only, thanks god for holy damage. Glancing blows don't hurt us like they do warriors and rogues.
#3385SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Trigunflame View Post
About to start Brutallus as Ret & wondering which would most likely net more DPS due to Mana Usage:
ps. (Possibly using Assassin's Alchemist Stone for more effective mana pots.)

1. CS, JoC, r6 Consecrate, r7 Exorcism, chaining Fel Mana Pots
2. CS, JoC, r1 Consecrate, r7 Exorcism, chaining Haste Pots
Even chain chugging Fel Manas you won't be able to maintain a full rank Consecration and Exorcism. Without the stone I can only sustain Rank IV Consecration without Exorcism, so I would guess with the stone you might get Rank IV Consecration with rank VI or VII Exorcism.

Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
Glancing Blows

A rogue in my guild asked about reducing his losses from glancing blows and someone else replied with this link to WoW Wikki, Glancing blow - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Is this dated? It pretty much implies "you're screwed". I was under the impression that the new chunks of expertise on new set gear would reduce glancing blows as well as dodge. We are of course, concerned about Brutallus. Given that glancing blows are white damage only, thanks god for holy damage. Glancing blows don't hurt us like they do warriors and rogues.
Expertise does nothing for Glancing Blows. In short, you are screwed.
#3386SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Natural
Here's a data point: 1978 Ret DPS on Brutallus from our Retadin : Wow Web Stats

He had two bloodlusts and plenty of drums. Oh, and ignore the 1700 rogue DPS... his missed an earlier repair bot and his weapons broke halfway through the fight (terrible).
#3387SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1danteinferno
I'm new to posting on the EJ forums...but I have been following Ret Pally theorycraft for quite some time and as you can see from my armory I have put a lot of time and effort into my gear. Here is my dilemma:
I have far exceeded the 95 hit rating cap and I do no have gear to substitute that will increase my dps. I'm looking at respeccing out of precision and picking up more talents in the ret tree. I understand that I will be losing the 3% spell hit and that will gimp my judging..is that really a big deal though?
I really enjoy having pursuit of justice for the increased dps time and vindication works very nice on a lot of trash. I feel I would rather pick up some semi-useful talents rather than waste talents to get 3% spell hit...What do you guys think?
#3388SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Galick
Originally Posted by Natural View Post
Here's a data point: 1978 Ret DPS on Brutallus from our Retadin : Wow Web Stats

He had two bloodlusts and plenty of drums. Oh, and ignore the 1700 rogue DPS... his missed an earlier repair bot and his weapons broke halfway through the fight (terrible).

That is insane dmg! Didn't really have an abnormal crit rate or anything, just good solid dps from the looks of it.

I have a question concerning fights in Hyjal. I am an ally pally and i noticed that my attack speed gets down ridiculously fast from the Necromancer buffs. It got me thinking that maybe there's a certain attack speed at which seal of righteousness becomes better than SoCo. I don't expect it to be an easily achievable number, but I was curious if anyone had theorycrafted it since I haven't seen it on any posts. My other question is if someone has a way to figure out how many mobs can be in the area before consecrate becomes more important than judgements or even CS.

I know this thread usually focuses on maximizing boss dmg, but I figure maybe there's someone out there that tries to compete on trash, too.
#3389SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Pereg View Post
Once you become expert with RAWR, I think you'll find you might should have gemed your new legplates a bit differently. Seems your current armory is what you are pvp'ing in so I can't tell for sure your true raid gear. Go find someone to make [Red Belt of Battle]. Put your AP gem in that, re-gem your legplates to what RAWR says.
You caught me in my pvp gear. I do have a [Red Belt of Battle]. I actually re-gemmed my legs last night, I'm still learning how to make rawr bend to my will. One of the most frustrating problems I've had is trying to get it not to enforce meta requirements so that I can compare equipment more honestly. Thanks for the reply I'm going to take a closer look at rawr and see if I can beat it into submission.
#3390SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Galick View Post
...My other question is if someone has a way to figure out how many mobs can be in the area before consecrate becomes more important than judgements or even CS.

I know this thread usually focuses on maximizing boss dmg, but I figure maybe there's someone out there that tries to compete on trash, too.
Assuming that we will be mana limited with Consecration spam, the point where Consecrate's DPM exceeds CS's DPM is the point where Consecrate should have higher prioity. (Consecrate DPM is proportional to # of mobs).


My last WWS parse with a T4 weapon shows 4 DPM for CS (1k damage per CS, 240~ mana per CS) so that's the target I'll use for Consecrate. (T5/T6 will probably be around 5~6 DPM).

Assuming melee gear, we have 0 +dmg, and we'll also assume no JotC. Max rank Consecrate base damage is 512 Holy over 8 seconds, with damage modifier of 133% (iSanct Aura, Vengeance, Crusade). Post modifiers, that's 680 damage for 660 mana per target, or 85 DPS/ 1 DPM per target. So with 4 mobs, Consecrate will have 4 DPM and 340 DPS. A 1k CS in contrast has 167 DPS and 4 DPM (roughly). Since both abilities have the same DPM, either one is an efficient use of your mana, but Consecrate yields higher DPS.


If you want to factor in a JotC on a single target, it adds 200~ damage over 8 seconds, or a single bonus of .3 DPM and 26 DPS. (Not affected by % damage modifiers; Add to the normal consecrate damage)



Different approach: At what point does Consecrate DPS/DPM scaling make you want to wear healing or +dmg (tank?) gear over melee gear?

Say you deal 1K single target DPS in melee gear. Where does +dmg scaling (via Consecrate's multi-target damage) outscale AP scaling? What level of +dmg will yield higher DPS contribution?

Doing a really rough over-estimate, I'd say we can get 1 DPS per 5 AP; for 5 AP, you could have around 2.5 +dmg. (assuming AP from Str w/ DS + BoK) 2.5 +dmg adds 0.4 DPS per Consecrate target (2.5 * 95% coeff. * 133% modifiers / 8 seconds); with 3 Consecrate targets, you get 1.2 DPS per 2.5 +dmg, which exceeds our AP scaling.


But what level of +dmg is needed to match a 1K melee DPS set? Melee gear can use Consecration too, so we'll ignore Consecration base damage; +dmg gear can probably do around 150 DPS with white + SoR, so we have to make up 1k - 150 = 850 DPS with added Consecration damage.

At this point, it's probably more useful to make a table:

# of targets | +dmg needed
1 - 5400 (out of reach)
3 - 1800 (still out of reach)
5 - 1076 (possible)
10 - 538 <<< (this is what my T4-ish healing gear has)

A sidenote on the healing gear is that it'll have the manapool/regen to sustain Consecrate spam for a longer period of time. I'd personally pick the healing gear if the DPS contribution of either is similar.
#3391SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Trigunflame View Post
About to start Brutallus as Ret & wondering which would most likely net more DPS due to Mana Usage:
ps. (Possibly using Assassin's Alchemist Stone for more effective mana pots.)

1. CS, JoC, r6 Consecrate, r7 Exorcism, chaining Fel Mana Pots
2. CS, JoC, r1 Consecrate, r7 Exorcism, chaining Haste Pots
Against Exorcisable targets, I would prioritize exorcism over consecration. As I get deeper into sunwell content, I find that consecrate does lower damage for the mana and its just a place to dump extra mana when you have it. I just mainly do max rank consecrates when I pop avenging wrath, and rank 2 If I have some extra mana before I pop my next mana potion.

I dont know how this happened but: Wow Web Stats

I dont know how an alliance paladin hit such a high DPS number. My CS critrate looks low as well...

Cheers!
#3392SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by danteinferno View Post
I'm new to posting on the EJ forums...but I have been following Ret Pally theorycraft for quite some time and as you can see from my armory I have put a lot of time and effort into my gear. Here is my dilemma:

I have far exceeded the 95 hit rating cap and I do no have gear to substitute that will increase my dps. I'm looking at respeccing out of precision and picking up more talents in the ret tree. I understand that I will be losing the 3% spell hit and that will gimp my judging..is that really a big deal though?
I really enjoy having pursuit of justice for the increased dps time and vindication works very nice on a lot of trash. I feel I would rather pick up some semi-useful talents rather than waste talents to get 3% spell hit...What do you guys think?
Precision is very important because there isnt many other places you can put points that will increase your DPS. I would change your helm glyph to the lower city one. I dont know if you guys are still running SSC, but the expertise shoudlers off hydross would be a good swap as well. There is also a lot of good gear you will get in BT that will make all your extra hit evaporate =P
#3393SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
The thing to remember about Exorcism is though it is a theoretical higher DPM than Consecration, in practice resists will lower its effectiveness by a fair amount. Consecration can only be resisted on the first tic, the other 7 are guarenteed to hit. Exorcism can be fully resisted, in which case you just blew a large chunk of mana for nothing

So look at a max rank Exorcism versus a max rank Consecration (with all the percentage modifiers and JotC), first without resists.

Consecration VI
Damage/cast: 1005
Mana Cost: 660
DPS: 125.63
DPM: 1.52
Exorcism VII
Damage/cast: 1045
Mana Cost: 340
DPS: 69.67
DPM: 3.07
Looks good, Consecration is clearly more DPS but half as efficient as Exorcism. However, if resists are brought into the equation Exorcism loses a lot of ground. Assuming you have 3/3 Precision you're looking at a 14% resist rate on boss mobs. Extrapolating out to 100 casts, you would see 14 resists and 86 regular casts. The numbers would actually look like so:

Consecration VI:
Damage/cast (normal): 1005
Damage (resist): 879
Total Damage (100 casts): 98736
Mana Cost: 660
DPS: 123.42
DPM: 1.45
Exorcism VII:
Damage/cast (normal): 1045
Damage (resist): 0
Total Damage (100 casts): 89870
Mana Cost: 340
DPS: 59.91
DPM: 2.64
Excorcism loses 14% of its DPS and DPM to resists, while Consecration loses less than 2% of its DPS and 5% of its DPM.

Its not to say that Exorcism is a bad spell, but calling it flat out better than Consecration is somewhat of a fallacy, depending on your luck with our good friend RNG.
#3394SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I dont know how this happened but: Wow Web Stats

I dont know how an alliance paladin hit such a high DPS number. My CS critrate looks low as well...

Cheers!
Looks like you got a string of white crits plus some presumably high number of heroisms? it's hard to tell since the shard proc is the same as the spell. Nice job either way.
#3395SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Theras
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Consecration can only be resisted on the first tic, the other 7 are guarenteed to hit. Exorcism can be fully resisted, in which case you just blew a large chunk of mana for nothing
That's old info. All Consecration ticks can be resisted just like any other DoT, the only reason it didn't appear that way was because of faulty combat logging. I pretty regularly see 15-20% of ticks partially resist for variable amounts of damage, which results in about a 6-8% DPS loss.

Originally Posted by noth View Post
Looks like you got a string of white crits plus some presumably high number of heroisms? it's hard to tell since the shard proc is the same as the spell. Nice job either way.
It's three Heroisms. You can look at the other party members and see.
#3396SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Am I missing a trick about how to see who's in what party in WWS?
#3397SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
That's old info. All Consecration ticks can be resisted just like any other DoT, the only reason it didn't appear that way was because of faulty combat logging. I pretty regularly see 15-20% of ticks partially resist for variable amounts of damage, which results in about a 6-8% DPS loss.
Full resists are entirely different than partial resists. The entirety of my post was about full resists (to quote the enhancement shaman thread, "please read the post before responding"). I still have no way to calculate partials so there is no way to quantify them, though both Consecration and Exorcism will be having partials in addition to the full resists.

All I do know about partials is that they act like glancing blows: they happen a lot and hit rating doesn't help.
#3398SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saabik
As Natural posted I was able to do pretty well with a fairly standard melee group. Here is a link to a more detailed post regarding buffs, etc for those interested:

WoW Forums -> Rise of the Ret II: 1978 DPS

I tried a bit of twisting but the GCD was killing me. In the future I'll be able to put out more DPS ignoring command entirely.

This is an example of a normal melee group. You can certainly stack a better one (swap a rogue for a feral) to get more personal damage, but you'll suffer raid DPS...unless you swap out the 1700 dps rogue...
#3399SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Impressive. These are the kinds of data points which convince raid leaders to use retribution paladins. Just curious about whether your shaman twisted GoA/WF, since you didn't mention anything about it. That'd probably have taken you past 2K
#3400SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Bart00
Going back to the high JoW procs, I was looking at some WWSs and I noticed that I had 110% proc on some bosses, unless I'm calculating wrong:

Barter - WWS
167 JoW procs
151 Attacks that could proc it

on another teron I had high procs as well but I died on half the fight so it could be luck, but this gurtogg was almost 8 minutes, no way to get that lucky.
Oh I had 1/2 vindication that day.
#3401SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
You're calculating the number of attacks wrongly. Just considering the 'Hits' column isn't accurate since WWS uses that figure to represent Normal+Glancing, and it doesn't include Crits. You have to manually add crits and hits for each of the skills.

That said JoW certainly has been well above 50% after 2.4
#3402SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Bart00
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
You're calculating the number of attacks wrongly. Just considering the 'Hits' column isn't accurate since WWS uses that figure to represent Normal+Glancing, and it doesn't include Crits. You have to manually add crits and hits for each of the skills.
Oh I see, thank for the clarification.
#3403SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aramul
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Looks good, Consecration is clearly more DPS but half as efficient as Exorcism. However, if resists are brought into the equation Exorcism loses a lot of ground. Assuming you have 3/3 Precision you're looking at a 14% resist rate on boss mobs. Extrapolating out to 100 casts, you would see 14 resists and 86 regular casts. The numbers would actually look like so:
As an Alliance Paladin, your Shaman is providing 1% more spell hit. Also, Exorcism is capable of crits, whereas Consecration is not. Even ignoring those, it remains better DPM, making it a more effective spell to use if you are mana limited rather than time limited (as Ret Paladins tend to be).
#3404SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
As an Alliance Paladin, your Shaman is providing 1% more spell hit. Also, Exorcism is capable of crits, whereas Consecration is not. Even ignoring those, it remains better DPM, making it a more effective spell to use if you are mana limited rather than time limited (as Ret Paladins tend to be).
If you are maximizing DPS though (i.e. Brut, the entire topic of this discussion) Consecration is hands down better. If you are going to prioritize between the two Consecration should be higher than Exorcism on a DPS fight, Exorcism higher than Consecration on a longevity fight.
#3405SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Theras
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Full resists are entirely different than partial resists. The entirety of my post was about full resists (to quote the enhancement shaman thread, "please read the post before responding"). I still have no way to calculate partials so there is no way to quantify them, though both Consecration and Exorcism will be having partials in addition to the full resists.

All I do know about partials is that they act like glancing blows: they happen a lot and hit rating doesn't help.
Sorry, I got my wires crossed on my way out the door today. The faulty combat log issue was the fact that the first tick of Consecration doesn't actually full resist like the log indicates. So spell hit and consecration don't interact whatsoever.
#3406SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Alexthor
Aggro

Hi guys,

An aggro related question here. Since I've outfitted myself with the SSO rep necklance of might (scryer version
) and the badge reward Blade of the Hargbringers, I find myself drawing aggro like crazy.

I'm wondering if this is due to
1) Me being an absolute shit player, or
2) My improved dps and subsequent threat generation is overwhelming my tanks' ability to generate aggro, or
3) There are issues with the Arcane Bolt that the necklace shoot out or my new axe, or
4) All of the above, or
5) None of the above

As all good dps, I wait for the tanks to draw a bit of aggro before going in and have salv on me. This works all fine before when I wield a Lionheart Executioner and Pendant of the Perilous. I had no issues with drawing aggro.

However now strange things are happening. A good example is last night mid-way through a fight with Hydross. I drew aggro somehow and was killed. I was then battle-rezzed, following which I slap a salv on me and with no other buffs went to dps. Surprise surprise I was way down on Omen when suddenly Hydross decided to turn around and give me a good smack.

Any of you guys experiencing the same thing? Or should i go back to wow pre-school?
#3407SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
For Hydross, you might be pulling during transitions. If that's not the case, your tank needs to improve.
#3408SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1CHaoTiCTeX
Hm, I never use salv on myself, i always have might and have no trouble. I'm using the lionheart exe and the SSO rep neck, scryer. The other retadin in the guild jsut picked up the Blade, and has cloak of fiends, etc, and hes only taken off .15 sec of swing time, and picked up a good amount of weapon damage of course; overall, the differences arent that large. Sounds like a bug in the hydross fight perhaps, or like above, it could be on transition.
#3409SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Alexthor
It is not during transition... far from it in fact. Going to check in detail again tonight and hopefully the same stuff doesn't happen... yeah and I am probably a bit too well-geared for some of our tanks.. bit of a pain really
#3410SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1krage
I'm not sure how well geared your tanks are, but your own gear level is rather high for early SSC. This combined with tanks wearing resist gear (and thus probably producing less threat) will give you a much better chance of being threat-limited than you'd normally expect.

As for Omen not properly indicating your relative threat level, this may simply be the new threat library not handling the transitions properly either.
#3411SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lopaka
Originally Posted by Saabik View Post
As Natural posted I was able to do pretty well with a fairly standard melee group. Here is a link to a more detailed post regarding buffs, etc for those interested:

WoW Forums -> Rise of the Ret II: 1978 DPS

I tried a bit of twisting but the GCD was killing me. In the future I'll be able to put out more DPS ignoring command entirely.

This is an example of a normal melee group. You can certainly stack a better one (swap a rogue for a feral) to get more personal damage, but you'll suffer raid DPS...unless you swap out the 1700 dps rogue...
Saabik, I was wondering if your shaman was twisting during the fight or if they stuck with WF and went to town?
#3412SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lyconn
Quick question regarding dps gear with int on it. Has anyone come up with some sort of numerical rating system to show the worth of intellect plate vs. non-int plate? Considering I've just recently gained access to tier 6 gear, and due to my low dkp, I won't be able to grab any t6 for a bit so my mana pool kinda concerns me.

Now I use bellator's and rawr consistently and they are excellent tools, but the only attention paid to intellect is in bellator's where it shows you how long till you go OOM. I'm basically looking for some sort of guideline as to how much intellect it would be worth giving up 1dps for.

For instance, [Belt of Seething Fury] vs. [Girdle of the Lightbearer]. There is a dps decrease going from seething to lightbearer but its small and the lightbearer has intellect which can increase your longevity.

If nobody has come up with some sort of equivalent rating for this is there a number i should shoot for in regards to bellator's "time until OOM."

Only reason I even bring this up is because I'm curious if there's a point to go for this gear. Like if you got enough mana could you switch from chaining mana pots to chaining haste pots? Would the dps increase from changing the pots you chain account for the dps you lose from wearing int gear instead of pure dps gear?
#3413SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
I have to watch my dps very closely in ssc, and with all the gear that can proc an ap bonus (or extra damage in you case for the neck) I find if I take my eyes off of omen for even a second I risk passing a tank. Remember your tanks are wearing resist gear and are generating less threat then they would normally generate. I typically have to stop dps multiple times per phase with one of our tanks, and almost never with the other with the other. Just try to pay attention to threat and plan on having to hold back.
#3414SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Antiock
Originally Posted by Lyconn View Post
Quick question regarding dps gear with int on it. Has anyone come up with some sort of numerical rating system to show the worth of intellect plate vs. non-int plate? Considering I've just recently gained access to tier 6 gear, and due to my low dkp, I won't be able to grab any t6 for a bit so my mana pool kinda concerns me.

Now I use bellator's and rawr consistently and they are excellent tools, but the only attention paid to intellect is in bellator's where it shows you how long till you go OOM. I'm basically looking for some sort of guideline as to how much intellect it would be worth giving up 1dps for.

For instance, [Belt of Seething Fury] vs. [Girdle of the Lightbearer]. There is a dps decrease going from seething to lightbearer but its small and the lightbearer has intellect which can increase your longevity.
I generally just equate 10 intellect to 1 dps when comparing. It's kind of arbitrary, but I like not worrying about running out of mana.

Also, you might want to consider mail items. [Valestalker Girdle] is better than both of the belts you linked AND has intellect!
#3415SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lyconn
Originally Posted by Antiock View Post
I generally just equate 10 intellect to 1 dps when comparing. It's kind of arbitrary, but I like not worrying about running out of mana.

Also, you might want to consider mail items. [Valestalker Girdle] is better than both of the belts you linked AND has intellect!
Good point there I didn't consider mail too much but that's a very good example. Thanks!
#3416SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Saabik
Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
Saabik, I was wondering if your shaman was twisting during the fight or if they stuck with WF and went to town?
My shaman was indeed twisting. He is using an elemental/enhance spec, running with a 5 second shock. His twisting rotation was based on storm strike, using reset = 9. I'm as familiar with WF totem uptime as I would like to be, but I believe it to be 100% or close to, and GOA having ~90% uptime.

After looking at my stats, I'll be using a Judge->SoB macro next time and completely ignore command all together. With the haste rating the GCD wasn't available to do any benefit from seal twisting, in fact, it hurt me. I missed about 10 swings worth of SoB. I should hit ~2k personal DPS doing this next week.

Last edited by Saabik : 04/17/08 at 2:49 PM.
#3417SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1JettJaguar
Originally Posted by Lyconn View Post
Good point there I didn't consider mail too much but that's a very good example. Thanks!
You should definitely consider mail. A number of the pieces have intellect and high agility in conjunction with crit rating. In my case, I wear the mail chest from Archi and the shoulders from Akama. Our hunters want T6 chest and the BM shoulders so it was easy to pick these up. The mail pieces yield lower AP (no str on them) but enormously more crit (and additional crit from Kings because they actually have Agi on them). For example, the mail chest is 3.8% crit (or so) when buffed with kings compared to plate pieces that would yield 25-30 more AP and in excess of 1.5% less crit.
#3418SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Aurius
Ive been trying to follow Bellators more closely (now that i finally got it to work with scripts) but I have ran into some strange things lately. I am hitcapped atm, 109 hit rating if i use the Red Belt of battle. 95 if I use the Girdle of the lightbringer. There are 3 strange pieces that say they are upgrades for me but I would swear for a hit capped warrior would be downgrades.

Red belt of battle VS Girdle of the Lightbringer
Blood Stained pauldrons VS Tier 6 shoulders
Bracers of Eradication vs Furious Shackles
I havent been able to figure this out is there something I am missing on the 3 left pieces that do make them all superior for a hit capped ret pally?

Edit- Noticed something pre-raid after a fe wupgrades and regemming of gear I somehow lost my meta gem working and that is probably why my dps has gone screwy.

Last edited by Aurius : 04/17/08 at 7:11 PM.
#3419SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
I havent been able to figure this out is there something I am missing on the 3 left pieces that do make them all superior for a hit capped ret pally?

Edit- Noticed something pre-raid after a fe wupgrades and regemming of gear I somehow lost my meta gem working and that is probably why my dps has gone screwy.
It is why that happened noticed the edit as I was quoting you and ready to tell you.
#3420SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aurius
Heh thanks. Got a few ideas now of what to go for now that I realized my mistake there, Legplates of unending fury, Target the belt of seething fury but if that doesnt work then get snag the Girdle of seething rage Will probably tie me over till we kill Illidan.
#3421SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saabik
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Heh thanks. Got a few ideas now of what to go for now that I realized my mistake there, Legplates of unending fury, Target the belt of seething fury but if that doesnt work then get snag the Girdle of seething rage Will probably tie me over till we kill Illidan.
If you become hit capped (quite possible with a lot of BT/hyjal plate), I highly recommend legplates of divine retribution.
#3422SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I've never been a huge fan of armor pen, personally. I've been playing around with all the new sunwell gear, and just by comparing stats Haste seems to spank armor pen pretty bad. Can't argue with your brutallus results however, thats pretty impressive. Did you get 1 or 2 bloodlusts? I do about 1850 with one.
#3423SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aurius
I did recently acquire the legplates of divine retribution. I am hit capped on my own atm as well as considering we ended up with a non-planned moonkin in the raid giving more +hit.
#3424SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aramul
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
If you are maximizing DPS though (i.e. Brut, the entire topic of this discussion) Consecration is hands down better. If you are going to prioritize between the two Consecration should be higher than Exorcism on a DPS fight, Exorcism higher than Consecration on a longevity fight.
We are not trying to maximize DPS, we are trying to maximize total damage done. It is very possible to run completely out of mana on a 6 minute fight like Brutallus. Given that you can use all your mana, you will want to convert your mana into damage as efficiently as possible, while still using all of it up during the fight.

So the real question is maximizing the amount of damage you can convert your mana pool into during a fight of known length. Comparing DPS numbers in a vacuum does not give us an appropriate answer to that question.
#3425SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saabik
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
<armor pen>
I wasn't too big a fan of armor pen either, nor am I at the moment. What led me to stack it was having a CE and LoDR, giving a good 650+ head start. I didn't have any amazing haste gear available so I started dropping hit where I could for more amor pen. I'm sitting at 1224 pre executioner, and it does pretty well at these levels. However, haste will become a primary stat as it sits on all the plate gear. I imagine I'll be getting most of this gear over our blood frenzy warrior as well, since the haste benefits me much more and I'm doing the same if not more personal DPS.


Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Did you get 1 or 2 bloodlusts? I do about 1850 with one.
I had 2 bloodlusts.
#3426SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
One more alliance WWS, this weeks Brut kill:

Wow Web Stats

1977 DPS
No special group: Ret, War, Enh, Rogue, Rogue
2 heroisms

Was spiking at 2.1k at some points during the fight, but mana got me eventually. Had a few 2k tries but no kill on those ;/

Think Salty had 3 heroisms and a feral and did 1995? Wish I could get that

At least we have some competitive alliance paladins *cough*, not sure how long this will continue with the stacking of haste gear though and SoB..... sob...



Oh and ignore "Brut try 3", we were trying to do some repositioning because we had an extra rogue who wanted to get in range of caster side totems and I ended up attacking from the side (which counted as front) and had a whole bunch of parries + a retarded 29% glancing, RNG be damned.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/18/08 at 10:08 PM.
#3427SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nemcova
wow.. 1977 is pretty impressive as alliance. The more time i spend as ret, the more i think i have the world's worst luck.

Wow Web Stats

i mean..look at my crit rate. I run with about 29% crit rate unbuffed. and raid buffed im at about 32% or so. i just dont understand why my crit rates are so low.

also, i THINK we got 2 heroisms, im not too sure. But if we did get a 2nd, it came really late.
#3428SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Renaud
I have a possible newb question. How many shaman do you guys run with to justify taking additional Bloodlust/Heroism's? We currently have 1 for the hunter/etc group, 1 for the spell casters, and 1 for the melee DPS. Do you need over 3 to justify additional Melee DPS Bloodlusts? Or have their been studies that I have missed (Yes I searched, but the parameters give about 100,000 posts that did not show what I'm looking for) for the DPS increase being significantly higher for Melee DPS getting multiple bloodlusts?
#3429SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Theras
There's a pretty good discussion on Heroism/Bloodlust cycling going on over here:

Multiple heroism rotations:
#3430SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
I have a possible newb question. How many shaman do you guys run with to justify taking additional Bloodlust/Heroism's? We currently have 1 for the hunter/etc group, 1 for the spell casters, and 1 for the melee DPS. Do you need over 3 to justify additional Melee DPS Bloodlusts? Or have their been studies that I have missed (Yes I searched, but the parameters give about 100,000 posts that did not show what I'm looking for) for the DPS increase being significantly higher for Melee DPS getting multiple bloodlusts?
Yea pretty much the 4th one is given to melee group if we have more than 3 Shammies in the raid. We've also experimented with giving it to the lock group with arguable results.

Usually that extra sham is pulled out of the healer group momentarily to throw heroism, then back.


In my WWS I think all but the kill itself we had 0-1 heroism used for melee, the kill had 2.
#3431SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
flyingtoastr
Out of curiosity Avitus, what rank of Consecration and Exorcism were you using on the kill? I really wish the combat log recorded ranks...

EDIT: Awesome tanking gear bro.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 04/19/08 at 8:16 AM.
#3432SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Max ranks

Alchemist's Stone + Fel Mana Potions ftw

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
EDIT: Awesome tanking gear bro.
Yea prot for Felmyst at the moment :/

Last edited by Avitus : 04/19/08 at 8:49 AM.
#3433SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1stray
Expertise

Hi Guys,

Well i thought i had my retradin all sorted until i found you lot!!

I was quite happy stacking AP and crit thinking its the way forward.

Seeing your DPS on WWS and then checking your gear's its not all about that, excuse my ignorance.

I was wondering about the Expertise Rating, does this also add Hit percent too? as i have seen you all dont cap it at 95 with precision, maybe this was earlier in the thread, but loads to look through it makes my eyes hurt

Feel free to check me out here. Bare in mind our guild runs a Equipment Category, and to enter MH i need 8.4k HP, 2000k AP and 33% crit.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Any pointers always welcome ofc, and if any1 has some nice numbers around expertise to share please do

Thanks

Stray
#3434SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
lapide
my record dps, do it last weed

1610 dps and fris place in damage done. the boss was Anetheron


link to wws status:

Wow Web Stats

Last edited by lapide : 04/19/08 at 4:30 PM.
#3435SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dram
No Expertise is not a replacement for hit. About your question regarding everyone's hit rating being below cap, from the few armouries I have checked, they are only a few points below the cap and the different between 100% hit and 99.9% (which is flyingtoastr's hit in his armoury) is tiny.
#3436SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
wow Avitus - YOU ARE THE MAN !!

I have never seen anyone with Full t6 all 3 ways. How long have you been farming Hijal / BT ?

I'm on my 3rd week of Illy and have 1 T6

So - here is a question -

I was able to pull about 1200 DPS on Gorefiend and according to the Spreadsheet from page 1 I downloaded my max potential dps is around 1580 with my current gear.

Is constant Rank 6 concecration and chain chugging Fel Mana potions the secret?
#3437SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1stray
i had heard that you get 0.6% hit with each expertise point this is why i asked.

i have seen less hit rating on other chars too
#3438SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Yeah, I'm currently 2 below the hit cap because of some nasty RNG with Council, Gorfiend and Supremus, none of whom feel like dropping a usable piece of loot.

Being a little off the hit cap isn't terrible. You might get screwed by the RNG a couple times because of it, but generally it isn't the end of the world if you're slightly lower. If you're 8 or more off though you really should throw in a gem or two to bump up to the cap though.

I'm really hoping they patch in a pyrestone version of [Etched Fire Opal] eventually (I hate heroic Shadow Labs), but for now as long as I'm within 4 or so of the cap I'm happy.
#3439SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by stray View Post
I was wondering about the Expertise Rating, does this also add Hit percent too? as i have seen you all dont cap it at 95 with precision, maybe this was earlier in the thread, but loads to look through it makes my eyes hurt
They are completely different things.

Hit removes your chance to "miss" a boss. You need 95 hit rating + Precision to get hit capped (9% total).

Expertise removes your chance to be "dodged" or "parried" by a boss. You need 104 expertise rating to get expertise capped (6.5% total). Attacking from behind you shouldn't get any more dodges (or parries).



Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
I have never seen anyone with Full t6 all 3 ways. How long have you been farming Hijal / BT ?

I'm on my 3rd week of Illy and have 1 T6
It's really nothing special, we've been farming Illidan for the past 6 months, Archimonde for 7. Almost everyone in my guild has 3 full sets with some T6 tokens now being taken for pvp and what not, I'm sure it's the same for most guilds who've been farming this content for this long.

Being in a small guild (number wise) also helps a lot.


Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
I was able to pull about 1200 DPS on Gorefiend and according to the Spreadsheet from page 1 I downloaded my max potential dps is around 1580 with my current gear.

Is constant Rank 6 concecration and chain chugging Fel Mana potions the secret?
Can't tell you much without a WWS log (and your armory not working), but there's a wealth of info in this thread on dps rotations.

There's also slightly different flavors, some prefer more consecration, some prefer less and weaving in haste pots.


Originally Posted by stray View Post
i had heard that you get 0.6% hit with each expertise point this is why i asked.

i have seen less hit rating on other chars too
Each point of expertise gives you -0.25% chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried.

1 expertise = 3.94 expertise rating

Last edited by Avitus : 04/19/08 at 7:46 PM.
#3440SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Yea prot for Felmyst at the moment :/
Same here. It's really fun.

Ill give Brutallus another go with haste drums this week.
#3441SourcePosted on <=2.0.0stray
Avitus : Thanks for that. Are you in your raid gear on the armory atm? I have seen a lot or ArP being used which you dont have on this set up.

Is ArP something to aim for or should i keep along the same tracks im on now? AP/crit/haste/expertise and ofc hit capped.

Should i be using executioner enchant instead of savagery?

I have seen you guys speak about RAWR, wth is this?

(please bare with me only been ret for 23days played time)

Feel free to check me out and advise on the gear

Stray

Last edited by stray : Yesterday at 11:54 AM.
#3442SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sterlin
Avitus - I have updated my wow character so you can armory me. I am wearing my raiding gear as it stands now. Sometimes I use the Assasin's Stone instead of the shard, but it depends.

Armory The World of Warcraft Armory

In raid gear, but PvP spec ATM

Here is a link to my WWS on a gorefiend kill

Wow Web Stats
#3443SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Avitus : Thanks for that. Are you in your raid gear on the armory atm? I have seen a lot or ArP being used which you dont have on this set up.

Is ArP something to aim for or should i keep along the same tracks im on now? AP/crit/haste/expertise and ofc hit capped.
If it was 4x venge + 3x vindicator and the Lightbringer chest (for hit rating) then it's my PvP gear.

My raiding gear currently has no ArmPen, since I didn't go the ArmPen stacking route.

Since you're a Belf with SoB, I can highly suggest stacking Haste however. You should use Rawr for specifics though.


Originally Posted by stray View Post
Should i be using executioner enchant instead of savagery?
Mongoose. You can't go wrong with it.


Originally Posted by stray View Post
I have seen you guys speak about RAWR, wth is this?

(please bare with me only been ret for 23days played time)

Feel free to check me out and advise on the gear

I'll give you what you need to get started, but please remember this is supposed to be more of a theorycrafting/self help thread rather than giving out answers that have already been repeated multiple times. You'll find a wealth of information by just searching or skimming this thread:


You can always get the latest RAWR here: Rawr - Home

Set it up with your current gear, then you can browse all possible upgrades. Make sure you have the correct raid Buffs/Debuffs/Talents selected.

The Stat Graph (options pane) is also a good overview of what stats are more worthwhile for you considering your current gear and buffs, but keep in mind that it's just an indicator, the combination of stats on items is what counts.
#3444SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Avitus - I have updated my wow character so you can armory me. I am wearing my raiding gear as it stands now. Sometimes I use the Assasin's Stone instead of the shard, but it depends.

Armory The World of Warcraft Armory

In raid gear, but PvP spec ATM

Here is a link to my WWS on a gorefiend kill

Wow Web Stats

Your gear is definitely on the right track, just make sure you have precision when you raid for hit cap.

Also expertise will go a long way, so you should keep that trinket equipped, if you want more mana to up rank replace the Darkmoon Card with the Assassin's Stone and use Fel Mana Potions (since Fel Mana Potions work against the spelldamage buff you'd get from the Darkmoon Card anyway).

Try to focus on updating some of your lower level items (T4 shoulders/kara neck).

A possible idea would be to ditch the kara neck, get hit enchant on your helmet (Lower City) and then use a higher level neck that doesn't have hit ([Pendant of the Perilous] or the exalted Shattered Sun neck).

Get [Libram of Divine Judgement].

The PvP stuff is not bad, but not optimal due to resilience weighing it down, try to upgrade that gradually. (The Vengeful gloves are an exception of course due to the CS bonus making it best in slot till Sunwell).

Use RAWR for more specifics.



Regarding your log, 1270 DPs on Teron is very low for a retpala, I noticed a few things:

-A good measure for your performance is DPStime/Ability cooldown and compare that number to your actual used abilities. You had 200 secs of DPS on Teron, therefore it was possible to do:

An optimum of 33 Crusader Strikes (6 sec cd). You only did 26 of those (17 hit, 6 crit, 3 dodged).
An optimum of 22 Judgements of Command (9 sec "practical" cd). You only did 16 of those (7 hit, 9 crit).
An optimum of 15 Exorcism (15 sec cd). You only did 2(!) of those (7 hit, 1 resist).
A theoretical optimum of 25 Consecration casts (8 sec cd). You only did 16 casts.

You really need to tighten up your rotations quiet a bit. 7 CS and 6 JoC not cast over a 3 min fight is immense. You really cannot afford to miss a single CS/JoC cooldown. If you have mana issues, all mana should be prioritized to CS/JoC. Consider this: Your CS ability was idle for a total 42 seconds. Your Judgement ability was idle for a total of 54 secs. This is close to a third of the fight length ;/

You also really should use Exorcism to its max potential on this fight considering the mana income from Spiritual Attunement, you almost completely ignored it.

-Your warrior did not refresh Battle Shout?

-You had 1 SoC miss. Given you're 1 point off the cap that's unfortunate. You could consider reshuffling some gear as you get upgrades to get the hitcap (I prefer having ~2-3 more than be under).

-From the number of dodges, I assume you weren't using your Shard of Contempt, it's really worth using

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 7:37 PM.
#3445SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sterlin
Thank you very much for the feedback Avitus

Is there any kind of macro I could use the would tighten up my performance? Or is it just a matter of practice?
#3446SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noraj
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Thank you very much for the feedback Avitus

Is there any kind of macro I could use the would tighten up my performance? Or is it just a matter of practice?
The best way for me to tighten my rotation up was to the swing timer built into Quartz to make sure I wasn't missing SoCom being up for a swing, and then using a cooldown timer with a warning.

CooldownTimers2 from WoWAce was my preferred timer for this, but I've recently gotten on to the cooldown timer from ForteWarlock, and I'm liking it a lot.

Jim's Cooldown Pulse, or Ghost: Pulse will also help let you know when your cooldowns are up so that you can pop the abilities immediately.
#3447SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
To be fair, exorcism and consecration don't come up as an "on cooldown" amount on my WWS either (though certainly higher than his). Priority should always be to CS --> Judge --> Exor (if applicable) --> consecration, so sometimes the last two have to wait for a more important CD.
#3448SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Yep, that's a given.

In a perfect case scenario with unlimited mana, you should be using every single ability on cooldown. In practice you'll run into mana issues/GCD and lower priority abilities (Exorcism, Consecration) should lose casts as you divert your mana to keep the higher priority ones (CS, Judgement) used "on cooldown".

1-2 casts here and there is an acceptable loss considering GCD issues, as well as waiting a few seconds for aggro at the start, but the point that needs to be made is, everyone who has trouble with DPS should evaluate their own WWS logs and see how close they matched the theoretical optimum on each ability. If there's a significant loss for CS/Judgement like in Sterlin's WWS, then you know what's going wrong. For Consecration, consider how you can improve your mana income to up the casts.

I personally include Exorcism in the "should be on cooldown" list for myself since it's a 15 sec cooldown, which doesn't take too much mana. You'd have to mess up with GCD about a dozen times in order to lose 1 exorcism cast in the fight.



Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Thank you very much for the feedback Avitus

Is there any kind of macro I could use the would tighten up my performance? Or is it just a matter of practice?
I'd suggest against lazy "do it all" macros that have been posted a few pages back (the ones that include CS and almost everything but the kitchen sink). They're not as good as manually timing your abilities.

What you should have however, is one macro that does Judge + Reseal, but everything else should have its own button.

A lot of it is practice and becomes instinctive once you got your rhythm down. On the other hand, as ret, there's very little else you have to do besides keep a good eye on all your cooldowns (I'd say the closest relative we have in dps play style would be hunters and their shot rotations).

Make sure you have some mod that shows you ability cooldowns in seconds on your buttons (for example: OmniCC).

It's also possible to use one of the cooldown reminder mods Noraj mentioned, I've started using Ghost: Pulse recently as a reminder for long cooldowns (AW, Potion Cooldown, Drums Cooldown) with everything else disabled.

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 8:08 PM.
#3449SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aithan
I have been browsing through the topic but I couldn't find a satisfactory response. So sorry if it has been already asked.

I raid as ret in a pretty decent guild, we're about to down Illidan.

My stats are 2070 AP, 29% crit, 16 expertise, hit capped - I use a Cataclysm's Edge.

The thing is - my damage floats a lot between different fights. I can get 4th on Teron, and then 11th on RoS in the same night, with the same group composition, which is pretty weird if you ask me.

I've started thinking it could be me screwing up rotations. Sometimes I lose the "tempo" and go "crap, CS has been off CD for 3 seconds now" and I guess that's making me lose a lot of dps.

My question: is there any way to improve my awareness of cooldowns to tighten up my rotation? Some sound mod, some flashy stuff on my screen, I don't know. Also, can you suggest a good way of checking my performance comparing time spent dpsing->number of abilities that could've been used VS actually used abilities?
Another related note: I use the

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Command

macro for judging, but sometimes it doesn't work - it judges, then doesn't reseal. I guess it's because judgement is off the GCD while the seal isn't. Is there a way to improve it?
Thank you in advance.

Last edited by Aithan : Yesterday at 9:49 PM.
#3450SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Vladimar
gear

ok so im new to the site i have read many of the pages here but have yet to find a gear explaination.

i would like to know what the best gear to get as a ret pally before walking into SSC..TK...MH...BT and so on...

i have mostly all kara/gruuls/S3 gloves and the two Handed sword from ZA with mongoose...

i know what to do as far as rotations go with abilities and spells i just need to know whats the best gear for me at the part of raiding i am doing.

i am sure it has been said somewhere in this thread but i have gone through many many pages and havent found anything other then the first post but yet it only says what gear as far as teir pieces.

thank you in advance to who ever can help me out with this

yes i know i have a healing belt...just switched from holy...and also my chest is the only thing i had for my ret set

The World of Warcraft Armory

theres my wow armory link please any feedback on this will be very appreciated
#3451SourcePosted on <=2.0.0CHaoTiCTeX
Well, I'm sure everyone here will point you in the direction of the wonderful rawr tool, version 13.1 you can either find this through google, or by going to the rawr development thread. other than that, your gear doesn't look to be too horrible, replace all the ap gems with str gems, since the str will scale with kings....also, typically, you want to be near 1800 ap unbuffed for eye/ssc. a belt you could pursue, and i would recommend pursuing would be the red belt of battle, its the best one for you gear level and is craftable by blacksmiths.
#3452SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lïnk
The RAWR from the official website is terrible for ret paldin model. The items that supposedly increase my dps have like 15 stam gems in their and defense gems. I don't know whats wrong with it but i used it just like the model that was posted in this thread. Has anyone else tried to download the newest RAWR model? I got the one that supports mages/druids/warlocks/ret paladins version 13.1.
#3453SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Aithan View Post
The thing is - my damage floats a lot between different fights. I can get 4th on Teron, and then 11th on RoS in the same night, with the same group composition, which is pretty weird if you ask me.

I've started thinking it could be me screwing up rotations. Sometimes I lose the "tempo" and go "crap, CS has been off CD for 3 seconds now" and I guess that's making me lose a lot of dps.

...

Also, can you suggest a good way of checking my performance comparing time spent dpsing->number of abilities that could've been used VS actually used abilities?
Make WWS logs of your fights and evaluate them as I illustrated last page. Also some mods were mentioned there.

Originally Posted by Aithan View Post
Another related note: I use the

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Command

macro for judging, but sometimes it doesn't work - it judges, then doesn't reseal. I guess it's because judgement is off the GCD while the seal isn't. Is there a way to improve it?
Thank you in advance.

Yea I dislike this macro for the reasons you mentioned. Instead, I use:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=30,alt Seal of Command, Judgement

The only drawback is you need to doubletap your macro button instead of single tap to judge and seal, but at least you should never lose your Seal this way and it also conserves mana as it won't let you reseal before you judge (or 30 secs have passed).

Hold down alt while pressing it if it ever should bug up (doesn't really happen anymore, but used to happen when SoC could be purged without talent before 30 secs had faded and you didn't judge yet).
#3454SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Lïnk, the official Rawr works fine, you can edit the gems in any item (right click -> Edit) if you have some weird data.
#3455SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aramul
Originally Posted by Lïnk View Post
The RAWR from the official website is terrible for ret paldin model. The items that supposedly increase my dps have like 15 stam gems in their and defense gems. I don't know whats wrong with it but i used it just like the model that was posted in this thread. Has anyone else tried to download the newest RAWR model? I got the one that supports mages/druids/warlocks/ret paladins version 13.1.
Make sure you have the Ret Paladin model selected. Bear Druids are selected by default and the model is not changed when you load your character from Armory.
#3456SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Vladimar
wow thanks guys that RAWR is very helpful

thanks alot again

i will be posting here alot in the future so im glad you guys are helpful in what i need and i hope i can help someone with something..
#3457SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Yeah it looks like you have the Bear model selected. I've been a bit busy - so sorry for lack of any recent updates regarding Rawr, but I still plan to have all the fixes/changes mentioned earlier out in the next release.
#3458SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lïnk
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
Make sure you have the Ret Paladin model selected. Bear Druids are selected by default and the model is not changed when you load your character from Armory.
Ok i got it now. I had to setup the best gear possible then actually input the current gear i had to make the model stabilize and show upgrades for my current gear. Kinda weird how that worked and i did have the ret model selected every time lol
#3459SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'd suggest against lazy "do it all" macros that have been posted a few pages back (the ones that include CS and almost everything but the kitchen sink). They're not as good as manually timing your abilities.

I just wanted to emphatically agree with this statement. Macro's are limited, and respond poorly to situational differences. There's a reason AI is never as good as a true human (for now at least).

Also, if your DPS isn't where it should be, your computer may be part of the problem. I used to raid anywhere between 8 and 12 FPS on boss fights, which put some delays on my abilities. I recently just got a new computer that runs 50-60 FPS in Shattrath (grats on 2x 8800GT's in SLI), and I can honestly say that my dps has increased no less than 10%.

Last edited by Zurm : Today at 9:56 AM.
#3460SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Blackwater
Hit Confused

Zurm, I looked up your latest fight againt the Grand Warlock Alythess.

Your hit is at 93 and you have the 3/3 in Precision. Which means you are at the hit cap.

It says your swing is at 1.6% missed!

How in the heck do you achive that? Do you ALWAYS attack from the rear?

I looked at one of my recent fights against Hydross, and I was at 9.1% missed. Even though I was over the hit cap (think I was at like 110 with 3/3 in precision). And I always try and stand behind the mob.

Because if I can drop that missed % down a couple of points, my DMG will skyrocket. I just have to figure out how, or fix what ever I am doing wrong......

Last edited by Blackwater : Today at 1:59 PM. Reason: I am a monkey
#3461SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Giantlol
Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
Zurm, I looked up your latest fight againt the Grand Warlock Alythess.

Your hit is at 93 and you have the 3/3 in Precision. Which means you are at the hit cap.

It says your swing is at 1.6% missed!

How in the heck do you achive that? Do you ALWAYS attack from the rear?

I looked at one of my recent fights against Hydross, and I was at 9.1% missed. Even though I was over the hit cap (think I was at like 110 with 3/3 in precision). And I always try and stand behind the mob.

Because if I can drop that missed % down a couple of points, my DMG will skyrocket. I just have to figure out how, or fix what ever I am doing wrong......
I'm going to go ahead and assume(I could be wrong) that those missed attacks are parries or dodges, I could be entirely wrong of course and if I am excuse me
You could get that "miss" down if you pick up a shard of contempt I believe, or other expertise gear I suppose
#3462SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Blackwater
Well as I was reading through this massive thread, a page or 2 back I saw this from Avitus:

"Expertise removes your chance to be "dodged" or "parried" by a boss. You need 104 expertise rating to get expertise capped (6.5% total). Attacking from behind you shouldn't get any more dodges (or parries)."

And doing a fast google came up with this:

"A player attacking a mob from behind can remove only parry and block from the table since direction doesn't affect dodge. Also note that there is a 0.5 yard penalty in which direction doesn't count. "

Maybe I am standing too close to the boss? Ever since they changed the graphic for the boss target area, I think I have been too close...I will have to play around with this on upcoming raids.

(I also have to enchant/gem up my new t5 gear Shoulders, gloves and legs)
#3463SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Blackwater, click on the button marked "Columns", notice the check mark in "All Miss" rather than "Miss", "Parry", "Dodge".

WWS's "All Miss" includes all missed attacks (Miss + Parry + Dodge).

If you check those, you'll notice that there were 0% misses and a few parries and dodges.
#3464SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Blackwater
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Blackwater, click on the button marked "Columns", notice the check mark in "All Miss" rather than "Miss", "Parry", "Dodge".

WWS's "All Miss" includes all missed attacks (Miss + Parry + Dodge).

If you check those, you'll notice that there were 0% misses and a few parries and dodges.

...HATE...

J/K... wow that is incredible.

Ok looking at my now, I noticed that I did not miss, it was 2% parry and 5% dodge.
So 438 swings.. all miss = 63.

Of those 63, 19 was parried, and 44 were dodged. Curious.

And yes Zurm, I did catch that error just now. I fail at basic math

Last edited by Blackwater : Today at 3:53 PM.
#3465SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
Zurm, I looked up your latest fight againt the Grand Warlock Alythess.

Your hit is at 93 and you have the 3/3 in Precision. Which means you are at the hit cap.

This is wrong. With 3/3 Precision, you ned 94.8 hit rating to be capped (95 technically, since there are no partial hit ratings). Hence, it is still possible (just very unlikely) for me to miss.
#3476SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Maybe I'm just 100% retarded, but consecration uses a debuff slot? I was fairly sure it didn't.
#3477SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trigunflame
Here is a WWS of our guilds last killshot of brutallus; I'm somewhat dissapointed in my DPS output considering the group I was in (2 rogues, enh shammy, ms war, me).

I've read every page of this thread, compared rotations to what I am doing, consumables, optimized gear to Rawr to the best of my availability (some enchants/gem choices are purely for hit cap etc..) (Atm foregoing the use of any abilities that could possibly put me on GCD when CS is coming up) in priority of cs > judge/SoC > exorcism > consecrate.

Trigunflame - WWS

Does anyone have suggestions on what I could do to improve?
#3478SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Nex_moongladeEU View Post
Anyways, 2008DPS, group consisted of myself, fury warr, BM hunter, enhance shaman and a rogue.
Nice work, yea BM hunter's 3% damage increase gives roughly 60 DPS at 2k DPS.

Seems your rotation is highly optimized with Haste and Haste pots, I'm not so sure if adding consecration would allow you to maintain the haste pot rotation comfortably, but you could give it at try.
#3479SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Nice work, yea BM hunter's 3% damage increase gives roughly 60 DPS at 2k DPS.

Seems your rotation is highly optimized with Haste and Haste pots, I'm not so sure if adding consecration would allow you to maintain the haste pot rotation comfortably, but you could give it at try.
BM hunter gives 3% damage boost, lack of arms warrior means about 3% DPS loss, and our guilds only arms warr is also a LW of which there was only one and a half in that group (me and one of the rotated shamans).

Our rogue that night, who is usually well informed, told me consecration acts as a debuff, and dropping it in favor for an additional haste pot and slightly better DPS gear mens it is a debuff you can easily live without.
#3480SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Zurm
It does act as a debuff, but only in the same way blizzard or flamestrike (dot component) does. While they use the mechanics of a debuff, they don't take one of the reserved debuff slots. Mana, however, is a whole other issue.

Edit for clarification: A debuff slot is not reserved because the debuff is not based on duration for its target, but rather location. Hence blizzard wouldn't have other issues trying to constantly add/remove debuffs in slots, which interact with the interface a lot and might cause lag/extra server strain/etc.

Last edited by Zurm : 04/22/08 at 12:33 PM.
#3481SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
I'm not so sure about the Consecration "debuff" knocking stuff off, I seem to recall something about temporary debuffs that don't show up on the mob but it's so long ago I'm not sure it still applies.

If you have mana left over then do use it and see if there's any difference to raid debuffs being knocked off by just that, I highly doubt it however.


Additional Haste pots with with SoB are definitely great, though for those of us on the other side it's arguable at best.



EDIT: What Zurm said.
#3482SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Trigunflame View Post
Does anyone have suggestions on what I could do to improve?
You need to stand more towards Brutallus' pivot point as you are getting parried quite a bit. I don't know how many melee you guys are running, but if there is ample space behind him try to attack from a spot where when he turns you wont be in his parry zone.

Take advantage of his football field of a hit box.
#3483SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
I've had no problem with judges getting knocked off on Brutallus so far. As for dps, the best I've had is 1770, but admittedly that using only str food as a consumable. no flask or haste pots yet. I know I've slacked there some and I need to farm herbs. Feel particularly bad since our best tries have been 5%, 4%, 3% and 2% >.<

In an effort to squeeze more dps, I bought the Badge Axe to use instead of my Torch (I know both should have better chants, but I save the Mongoose mats for the trash pole arm) and I found, the benefit of the Axe is arguable at best. Sometimes even "lower" in dps. Unless those fights I just happened to have a bad run. I can't really explain why.
#3484SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Well, looking at it, the badge axe is only a small upgrade... a handful of DPS. Not something you'd likely notice in a night of attempts. Now going from Torch to the [Shivering Felspine]... that was a nice surprise. Each hit lands for about the same... just attack a lot faster.
#3485SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1aksnc30
DPS Theorycraft Sheet

HI!

Just have a quick question about the DPS Spreadsheet at the beginning of this section.

I've been messing around with it for a-while and occurred to me I didnt know if the DPS it calculated on the spreadsheet took into account the procs from the items? Or if they were calculated without the procs occurring?

EG , Libram of Divine Judgement.

Reason I ask is more and more of my ret paladin items are becoming proc based and wanted to make sure I was using the spreadsheet correctly for the correct result.

Sorry if this has been covered before.

Thanks.
#3486SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Unreasonably stacked group or not, 2k+ on Brutallus is great! Nicely done Nex.

On the topic of haste vs mana potions for Alliance, does anyone know where in this thread or elsewhere I could see the math for the DPS gain from a haste potion off-set by the loss of Consecration/Exorcism DPS due to mana limitations while using an effectively 3.6 base weapon speed? I'm trying to determine whether to start stocking up on haste potions in anticipation of this fight (just downed Council, hopefully working on Illidan this week) instead of my usual mana potions and just altering my rotation to accomodate the decreased effective mana pool. I know haste potions won't affect my yellow damage at all as Alliance paladin as it does Horde w/ Seal of Blood, but assuming Improved Divine Spirit, Kings, Improved Wisdom, Improved Mark of the Wild, Arcane Brilliance, 2-piece tier 6 bonus, Judgment of Wisdom, and any splash damage normal to the melee group, as well as Sanctified Judgment and a ~6k mana pool, could anyone estimate the appreciable difference between haste pot'ing and cutting back on Consecrate vs mana pot'ing and alternating max and lower ranks of Consecrate?
#3487SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
If memory serves, that discussion would probably be about 10-15 pages back now. Being a blood elf, I didn't pay a large amount of attention, but I'm sure if I'm wrong Avitus will correct me within an hour or so
#3488SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Playlogic
hey there.. im running my first 25 man as retri next reset and i still had 1 question open

the teron movie zurm posted where he as ghosted, he seems to be ignoring the swing timer. Is it just not that important or am i just watching wrong here?

thx in advance
#3489SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
The discussion of mana pots vs haste potions was about page 110 or so.

Basically since haste only affects white attacks for Alliance and more mana means more exocism/conc, you will get more returns from Super Mana Potions. A few guys did do the calcs, good luck finding them.
#3490SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Alborak
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The discussion of mana pots vs haste potions was about page 110 or so.

Basically since haste only affects white attacks for Alliance and more mana means more exocism/conc, you will get more returns from Super Mana Potions. A few guys did do the calcs, good luck finding them.
And actually, if you're going to be using mana pots, you may as well use fel mana pots, as they provide a higher dps increase than either super mana or Haste for alliance. (This was also in the discussion)
#3491SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
And actually, if you're going to be using mana pots, you may as well use fel mana pots, as they provide a higher dps increase than either super mana or Haste for alliance. (This was also in the discussion)
Found it. Avitus mentioned Fel Mana Potions back on page 120, then Avitus and Sigurd did some napkin math on Fel Mana Potions vs Haste Potions for both Alliance and Horde on page 122. To recap it, assuming ideal situations, Alliance get about 41 DPS increase from Fel Mana Potions, and Horde get 45 DPS increase from Haste Potions (Alliance get much less from Haste Potions).

Sounds like I need to start farming Fel Mana mats! Now I wish I were herb/alch... Damn my addiction to goggles and flying machines!

Thanks for the direction guys, I didn't look forward to combing through 50 pages of discussion to find that info.
#3492SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Unreasonably stacked group or not, 2k+ on Brutallus is great! Nicely done Nex.

On the topic of haste vs mana potions for Alliance...
Don't think anyone said it's unreasonably stacked, it's slightly more stacked (+1 bm) over the normal ret, war, enhance, rogue, rogue, but not much. Unreasonably stacked is if you'd stick a feral on top of that or throw in more than 2 heroisms. Well done indeed


Regardless 2k can be reached with a normal group as displayed by others, especially for horde pallies who should at this time do an estimated ~115 more DPS (assuming ~135 haste on gear = Torch + T6 bracers + T6 belt) and around ~175 more DPS at the end of Sunwell (assuming ~265-290 haste on best gear which will be inevitable for both horde and alliance the way the best items are itemized in Sunwell). Those estimates are according to RAWR btw, I think the spreadsheet said something similar +/- 5 dps.

The gap further widens if you include multiple heroisms (more than 1), haste potions and Drums rotations. It's pretty sad when you know end of Sunwell we'll be looking at roughly 200 DPS difference, simply due faction seal (and how it scales with the items available) and there's nothing you can do about it.


Regarding your haste vs mana pot question, the thing is you go from haste being the top stat for SoB to being one of the lowest low priority stats for SoC for us lowly alliance.


Checking bellator's spreadsheet (RAWR does not have this yet! ) you can actually check "Haste Pots" to see the effect it would have on your DPS.

I'll add some updated napkin math soon.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/22/08 at 9:33 PM.
#3493SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Ok here comes math! (duck!)

Assuming a 6 min fight (like Brutallus), you could also do the following:

-Grab a recent WWS log.
-A haste pot would add 25.38% haste to your white swings over 15 secs, over 2 mins, that's an average 3.17% hasted weapon speed overall if you take Haste pots on cooldown (there's 3 opportunities to do that in the 6 min fight).
-Multiply your damage from Auto-attack with 0.0317

This is how much haste pots would give you. Obviously slightly more if you time it with AW, but not much more. Remember this number.



Assuming you used to take super mana potions at 0:30, 2:30, 4:30 during the brut fight (again 3 opportunities), they should have given you an average 7200 mana during those 6 mins.

Again, assuming you can keep up your normal rotation (CS, JoC and maybe exorcism) without mana pots, those 7200 mana will all go towards Consecration.

7200 consecration affords you about 11 consecrations.

At 512 base damage for max rank, with JotC (+208 total damage, since it does NOT benefit from any multipliers, think I made a post 50 pages ago), 3x Vengeance (*1.15), Misery (*1.05), Imp Sanctity Aura (*1.122) and Crusade (*1.03) and 0 spelldamage gear, each consecration should give you about 922.47 damage.

11 extra casts of consecration will therefore give you 10147 damage (11x ~922.47 damage) or ~10k damage for rule of thumb over a 6 min fight.

If you use [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], following the same math but adding 80 spelldamage you'll do 11314 damage over those 11 consecrations (11x 1028.53 damage).

The number is obviously a bit more during 2x AW you will use, but while this can be easily calculated in, I'll not do so so you can compare the consecration damage directly to the damage you gain from haste potions where we did not model in AW.



Now for every paladin it's slightly different. In my case for example using [Assassin's Alchemist Stone] and [Fel Mana Potion], I will get a guaranteed 13440 more mana.

Those will afford me 20.36 more consecration casts. Rounding down to ~20 casts and following the math above (no Darkmoon Card since Fel Mana Potions eat into the 80 spelldamage buff, but not into the JotC debuff), those 20 casts are worth 18449.4 damage.


Now go back and compare to the number we marked in red above. If it's more than 3.17% haste to your auto attack would give you, use mana potions. If it's less, use haste. I'll add an example in a bit.


EDIT:
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
You forgot to throw in the 3% from Crusade since Brut is a demon. Still, close enough for jazz and the numbers are close enough that you can get the idea.
Added. I knew something was missing when my numbers were slightly less than what I saw in my WWS, now it's perfect

Last edited by Avitus : 04/22/08 at 10:39 PM.
#3494SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
You forgot to throw in the 3% from Crusade since Brut is a demon. Still, close enough for jazz and the numbers are close enough that you can get the idea.
#3495SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
If memory serves, that discussion would probably be about 10-15 pages back now. Being a blood elf, I didn't pay a large amount of attention, but I'm sure if I'm wrong Avitus will correct me within an hour or so
Snap! Can you notice that I'm finally on (a long awaited) week long vacation? xD


Anyway, here's the promised example ("case study" if you will):

I'll take my own Brutallus WWS (Avitus - WWS) where I did 1977 DPS using Fel Mana Potions and Assassin's Stone.

Over the 6 min fight (5:59) my autoattack did 356,794 damage.

If I had used Haste Potions, I would have gained (autoattack damage * 0.031725) damage 11319.6 damage. (Note: I'm not 100% sure if this can be calculated so simply due to how other haste effects stack, it should be correct, but do suggest if you know otherwise).

As explained in the last post, using 3 fel mana potions allowed me to do 20.36 more max rank consecration casts, which at 922.47 damage per cast are worth ~18785 damage.

->Still Haste Potions would have been a loss here.

Assuming I didn't have Alchemist's Stone effect (40% more mana from potions), I would have gained 9600 mana from 3x Fel Mana Potions, which are worth 14.54 consecration casts, worth 13417 damage.

->Still Haste Potions would have been a loss here.


Assuming no Alchemist's Stone and no Fel Mana Potions (keep in mind that in contrast Super Mana Potions give an "average mana amount of 2400" so it can be more or less): 10.9 casts worth 10063.3 damage.

->Haste Potions would have been a gain here!.


If you add [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] to the last calculation however (should be used by anyone not using Fel Mana Potions and extensively making use of consecration): 10.9 casts worth 11220.3 damage.


->Pretty much the same.



So conclusion: In the majority of normal case scenarios for an alliance paladin using max rank consecration and no special spelldamage gear, the potion list is (from highest to lowest):

1. [Fel Mana Potion]
2. [Haste Potion]
3. [Super Mana Potion]

So if you are going to spend and have to pick a "special potion" (not normal Super Mana Potions), use Fel Mana Potions instead of Haste Potions as alliance.

If you are using [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] (and you should if you're not using Fel Mana Potions), there's almost no gain from Super Mana Potions -> Haste Potions.

Edit: For Consecration rank 4 + Darkmoon Card, Mana Potion is superior to haste. (See notes) Therefore use of Haste Potions for alliance is really almost always a waste.


Notes:

-It should be said in favor of Consecration: I've used max rank Consecration for the calculations. Lower Consecration ranks offer more bang for your buck (due to JotC not being affected by downranking). The perfect use of consecration would therefore be using a rank that you can spam non stop (while upranking during AW) without ever running into mana issues, while making sure to not finish the fight with any leftover mana.

Using the calculations above, but lower ranks, you will get MORE damage per mana potion used further going into favor of Mana Potions over Haste Potions.

For example Consecration Rank 4 + Super Mana Potions: 18.46 casts * 598.72 damage = 11053.3 damage (Almost the same, haste very slightly better.)

Consecration Rank 4 + Darkmoon Card + Super Mana Potions: 18.46 casts * 631.91 damage = 11666 damage (Super Mana Potion is better than haste!)


I used Consecration Rank 6 throughout since that's what I use on almost all other fights while maintaining 100% uptime.

Unfortunately, at Brutallus we only had 3 paladins, so no BoW and since there's also no raid damage if you don't get burn (I didn't, mana gained through Spiritual Attunment 96..... meh), my mana income was a lot less than usual.

For example our first attempt, I had burn and had 5,177 mana returned through Spiritual Attunement and never ran into mana issues. I did over 2k DPS in that try without any heroisms used yet, simply due to having a lot more mana and never having to stop Consecartion. (On the kill I was hovering between 2.1k and 2k until having to reduce consecration use due to mana issues and ending at 1977DPS overall).

Next time we go there, I'll try rank 4 or rank 5 and uprank if I get burn/AW or a 4th paladin doing BoW on me, hopefully tweaking it so I never stop casting and gain some DPS increase.


-It should be said in favor of Consecration again: In contrast to your white swings from which you can remove miss and dodge, your Consecration ticks will still get resisted. In my example I had 0 miss/0 dodge, but 8 fully resisted Consecration ticks (3% of total) and 40 partially resisted ticks (6.6% of total) over a total of 252 ticks (31.5 consecration casts).

HOWEVER

Your white hits will still suffer from Glancing blows (I had 21%, but the norm is 20% chance of a glancing blows against level 73 bosses, glancing blows do only 70% damage). Also as illustrated above, only the first tick of consecration can ever be fully resisted. I'm not going to go into further math here, but I'll assume the loss to glancing probably outweighs the partial resist, people are welcome to do more indepth calculations of this and post here.


-For future proofing: Since I doubt we'll be getting any spelldamage gear anymore, damage done by consecration will always remain at what it is now. In contrast, your damage through white hits should increase somewhat by the end of Sunwell due to improved gear. I can assume it will be enough to further the gap between Haste Potions and Super Mana Potions, but I doubt it will be enough to overtake Fel Mana Potions, especially not with an Alchemist's Stone.

-There is a slight loss in damage for using [Item 'assassin's alchemist's stone' not found!] obviously, however the net DPS increase from the added Consecration Spam due to the increased mana gain is more than using a "better" melee trinket (DST, Berserker's Call).


-As said before, all calculations do not include AW, so they should be more or less equal.




Finally I'll say. This is probably the reason why I did like Spelldamage on our t6 gear (I think I had 260 spelldamage + 80 from darkmoon card). It used to close the gap somewhat to haste spamming SoB users, but yea that's no more.

On the other hand, we gained a buff by being able to use Fel Mana Potions (we couldn't before since it worked against the spelldamage on our gear).

Last edited by Avitus : 04/22/08 at 11:11 PM.
#3496SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aramul
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Assuming a 6 min fight (like Brutallus), you could also do the following:

-Grab a recent WWS log.
-A haste pot would add 25.38% haste to your white swings over 15 secs, over 2 mins, that's an average 3.17% hasted weapon speed overall if you take Haste pots on cooldown (there's 3 opportunities to do that in the 6 min fight).
-Multiply your damage from Auto-attack with 0.0317

This is how much haste pots would give you. Obviously slightly more if you time it with AW, but not much more. Remember this number.
If you time two of your haste potions with your two AW during the fight, they are 20% more effective on average. If you also stack a clickable trinket like Berserker's Call, the effect is further multiplied.

The real increase in consecration damage should be compared against r1 Consecration. Rank 1 Consecration is a fairly low mana, efficient spell, using mana potions allows you to rank up Consecration more often. Rank 1 Consecration with ~100 spell damage, standard talents and raid debuffs deals 445.92 damage per cast for 120 mana. Rank 6 Consecration under the same circumstances deals 1137.37 for 660 mana.

The marginal damage gain for casting a r6 Cons over a r1 Cons is 691.45 damage. The marginal increase in cost is 540 mana. Replacing r1 Cons with r6 Cons is effectively 1.28 DPM.

I would argue that any time you can stack a potion cooldown with AW you should be using a Haste potion.
#3497SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Snap! Can you notice that I'm finally on (a long awaited) week long vacation? xD


...
Thanks for the case study Avitus, I'll read it more closely at work. I do wonder, though, what the breakpoint is where Haste Potions overtake Super Mana Potions, out of sheer curiousity.

Regardless, I'm not going to reroll alchemist, so I'll just have to go with base Fel Mana returns. The question now becomes [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] or [Berserker's Call] to pair with my [Shard of Contempt]. Time to play with spreadsheets...
#3498SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Aramul, not sure how you calculated your consecration damage, how are you doing your calculations?

Conc r1:

208 + ((100 * 0.47) + 64) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122 = 362.9 damage per cast (not 445.92, did you remember to lower the co-efficient for downranking?)

Conc r6:

208 + ((100 * 0.95) + 512) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122 = 1055 damage per cast (not 1137, how are you getting this?).



Now the real question is, can you keep up SoC, JoC, Exorcism and Conc r1 on Brutallus without BoW and 0 mana from Spiritual Attunement (Burn is a special case)? According to my estimates, no.


(If you could, you might have to deduct the damage Conc r1 would do, from the damage you gain from using mana potions and spamming r6, which would definitely change things quiet a bit, but atm I don't see how you can maintain that without using mana potions.)


Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Regardless, I'm not going to reroll alchemist, so I'll just have to go with base Fel Mana returns. The question now becomes [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] or [Berserker's Call] to pair with my [Shard of Contempt]. Time to play with spreadsheets...
I'm actually working on calculating just that atm and as well as where exactly Assassin's Alchemist's Stone ranks. I'll post here when I have more conclusive results.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/23/08 at 12:31 AM.
#3499SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Aramul
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Aramul, not sure how you calculated your consecration damage, how are you doing your calculations?

Conc r1:

208 + ((100 * 0.47) + 64) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122 = 362.9 damage per cast (not 445.92, did you remember to lower the co-efficient for downranking?)
(Base + JotC*.95 + SpD * .95 * Downrank) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122.

The number mismatch is from placement of JotC. I know it's not affected by downranking, is it also unaffected by our damage multipliers? That damage (~83) should be dropped from both estimates in that case.

With a single mana pot in the middle (when not stacked with AW), maintaining everything is a possibility.

Last edited by Aramul : 04/23/08 at 1:04 AM.
#3500SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
(Base + JotC*.95 + SpD * .95 * Downrank) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122.

The number mismatch is from placement of JotC. I know it's not affected by downranking, is it also unaffected by our damage multipliers? That damage (~83) should be dropped from both estimates in that case.

With a single mana pot in the middle (when not stacked with AW), maintaining everything is a possibility.
It's not affected by multipliers, so yeah.


Corrected equation:
(Base + SpD * .95 * Downrank) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122 + JotC*.95
#3501SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aramul
That drops the damage for all ranks of Consecration by 83, lowering DPM of Rank 1, but leaving the marginal damage gain, mana cost, and DPM the same.

The marginal damage gain for casting a r6 Cons over a r1 Cons is 691.45 damage. The marginal increase in cost is 540 mana. Replacing r1 Cons with r6 Cons is effectively 1.28 DPM.
This all still applies.
#3502SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valerys
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Their priority is pretty high, but just remember that as a buff stays on the mob longer, its priority decreases. So a judgement's priority will be a lot lower 5 minutes into a fight then in the first minute, making things like shadow priest dots and rogue poisons knock it off. We run into this problem on brutallus... the simple solution is to make rogues switch to instant poison, and make others switch off unecessary debuffs.
In my experience judgements regain their priority every time you hit CS to refresh them. I've never had judgements fall off as long as I'm there CSing them back into place.
#3503SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
As a rule of thumb (and to make life easier), when calculating consecration damage, add 26 DPS if JotC is on for any rank, since it's unaffected by multipliers or downranking.

26 DPS * 8 = 208 flat damage per cast (that's where my +208 damage comes from)


The 26 DPS number is achieved as Fiola mentioned: 0.95 * 219 (spelldamage from JotC) = 208.05 damage per cast or 26.00625 DPS
#3504SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1tyrael885
Zurm s right ! We are at brutallus as well and we put the 3 judgements in to the boss tho only the seal that I cast remains refreshed. the other 2 falls of after a period of time. So we can consider this a Bug, because it should refresh all the 3 judgemens so they cannot fall down from the incredible ammount of debuffs on the boss. i think the cap is 50 but thats not offical :P
#3505SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Lyconn View Post
Has anyone done testing on Judgement of Wisdom as far as its priority as a debuff? My guildies were concerned that if we were to be keeping up all these extra judgements that either they would get knocked off easily or something more important would in its place. I know it's been a lot better with debuffs since blizz increased the cap, but we are usually pretty warlock/spriest heavy which is the reason for concern.

I have not done any hard testing on this, but my first instinct leads me to think that it would hold a pretty high priority since it's technically getting re-applied every crusader strike. This is opposed to a dps class re-applying a dot every ~12-15 seconds. Does that logic hold true?
Don't quote me on this, but I believe using a pre-BC rank of SOW (rank 3) will allow it to use the pre-BC debuff priority system, preventing JOW from being knocked off, although you will obviously return less mana per proc (from 74 to 59).
#3506SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
From Patch 2.4.2 PTR:

* Paladin Talent: Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.

Lol, wish they'd make it gain from JotC again, who cares about SotC.
#3507SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
I'm always conscious of multi function macros not being allowed. I'm in work at the moment so I can't try it out, but, can you make a macro that fires AW and a haste pot at the same time?

Is using haste pots during a Bloodlust as yummy as it looks or is there a catch I haven't noticed?
#3508SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Snoe
Reading stuff like that, I wonder who ever reported that issue. Or why a Blizzard employee tested it. It's so not relevant.
#3509SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Don't think anyone said it's unreasonably stacked, it's slightly more stacked (+1 bm) over the normal ret, war, enhance, rogue, rogue, but not much. Unreasonably stacked is if you'd stick a feral on top of that or throw in more than 2 heroisms. Well done indeed
Thank you.

It was 2 rogues at first, although one had to leave early and the reshuffling of groups ended with a BM hunter in there. And i wouldn't say overstacked either. It's 2 bloodlusts compared to the 3 many others have, and we lacked an arms warrior for the 4% physical DPS, as well as there being at least one less LW in the group than usual. So by Brutallus standards the buffs were "average".
#3510SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Yea, with SoB and optimization I don't think 2100 should be out of reach at all. If theory is correct, currently you should be able to hit +120dps of whatever I can given same gear and circumstances.

Originally Posted by Snoe View Post
Reading stuff like that, I wonder who ever reported that issue. Or why a Blizzard employee tested it. It's so not relevant.
Surely it's more important they dedicate their time and effort towards something like that which no one uses (or should be shot if they do), vs. forming a 5 min meeting to discuss the no brainer issue of the horribly retarded faction seal imbalance and settling it.

Besides, I can only guess the remaining reason they haven't done so is so they have one more flashy "buy Woltk now with fixed seals" sticker as a selling point or some other lame marketing ploy. It's the carrot that needs to be dangled for people to run after (pre-tbc fear ward for priests? things that always should have been fixed from day 1, but they kept delaying for no reason).
#3511SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Yea, with SoB and optimization I don't think 2100 should be out of reach at all. If theory is correct, currently you should be able to hit +120dps of whatever I can given same gear and circumstances.
120 is slightly more than what I would have put it on at the current gear level, but another SoB vs SoC thread is not really nessesary.

However, RNG considerations, fewer but larger hits with SoC gearing and another variable in the amount of SoC procs means that while on average the difference might be your 120 DPS, but the difference between absolute top scores of horde and alliance paladins will be smaller. Alliance paladins got a larger variance in their DPS than horde does and that will show in those absolute top scores when RNG decides to be in your favor.
#3512SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Alborak
While we're on the topic of mana issues, for those of us stuck with a 3 pally raid and obviously sacrificing wisdom for salvation, would it be possible to swap your salv for a wisdom once a comfortable point has been reached where you're no longer at issue of pulling aggro? I know that for myself on fights like Teron or Mother, about 50% through the fight I am only around 60% of tank threat, and so drop my salvation for a wisdom on myself. This is of course from a bit undergeared situation though, I can only push about 14-1450 dps on teron.

For those of you running Bruttallus, what does your threat situation look like? Would you be able to lose salvation with 2 or 3 mins left in the fight?

If you can get 3 mins of wisdom, thats an extra 1400 mana to play with.
180 seconds / 5 = 36 BoW tics
36 * 39 Mp5 = 1404 mana.
#3513SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Fiola
Originally Posted by Snoe View Post
Reading stuff like that, I wonder who ever reported that issue. Or why a Blizzard employee tested it. It's so not relevant.
It's been noticed since when CS was first introduced. It's a "contradiction" fix. Using a damage seal reduces your damage output - Narf? It's something that obviously needs a fix, and it's a plus if no one uses SotC much - they can't accidentally unbalance the game by over-buffing SotC (unless they reintroduce the original SotC bug.... = D).

Different damage seals having different scaling is a little more complex to fix - especially since SoB is supposed to out-DPS SoC - that's the reason it has the health cost. If they're made more on par, then why use SoB? (BElf paladins getting official Naaru approval does open us up to trading faction seals, methinks . . .)

The point being that the SotC fix is low-hanging fruit. The change has low-impact and is "easily" done. (I'd think... it's 2 abilities)


As for using SotC + CS, I find myself doing that on raid trash when a mob is about to die and I know it'll be time to switch targets. (Doing SoC R1 swapping is a bit of a bother and can conflict with other ability cooldowns) I also used it for killing the imps in MrT last night, since they don't last long enough to be worth judging, and I have a tendency to pull aggro if I judge in the first 2 seconds of a fight. (Darn you, SJ!)

Last edited by Fiola : 04/23/08 at 12:48 PM.
#3514SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
While we're on the topic of mana issues, for those of us stuck with a 3 pally raid and obviously sacrificing wisdom for salvation, would it be possible to swap your salv for a wisdom once a comfortable point has been reached where you're no longer at issue of pulling aggro? I know that for myself on fights like Teron or Mother, about 50% through the fight I am only around 60% of tank threat, and so drop my salvation for a wisdom on myself. This is of course from a bit undergeared situation though, I can only push about 14-1450 dps on teron.

For those of you running Bruttallus, what does your threat situation look like? Would you be able to lose salvation with 2 or 3 mins left in the fight?

If you can get 3 mins of wisdom, thats an extra 1400 mana to play with.
180 seconds / 5 = 36 BoW tics
36 * 39 Mp5 = 1404 mana.
I've had to stop my autoattack on Brutallus for fear of pulling aggro during the first 45 seconds. I'm not certain how removing salvation would affect my personal threat after those 45 seconds, but I'm not going to waste the time of 24 others to find out. My gear, however, is pretty good so I'm not missing or getting dodged much anymore. I think if I didn't have salvation across the full duration, I could pull aggro from the tanks at any point.
#3515SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eradorn
Macro

To answer the macro question, you can use the most basic macro since neither one touched a gcd. I use a similar one for my trinket cooldowns.

/use Haste Potion
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast *whatever ability you want it linked to*
#3516SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
To get the maximum out of an AW you should ideally have a "use trinket" tied to it as well. For example, my current AW macro looks like so:

/cast Avenging Wrath
/use 14

It automatically uses both AW and my Bloodlust Brooch at the same time so I get the most out of both of them. Of course you can tie it to other things, such as pots and other spells as well.

EDIT: The "Use 14" means "use the trinket in the second slot". If you have an on use trinket in the first slot you want to use you would just type "/use 13" for the second line.
#3517SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I know its been said before, so please don't flame me because I don't agree with the imbalance either, but...

If you look at the DPS done with SoB vs SoC at lower gear levels (namely T4 and below), SOC actually beats SoB quite easily. Maybe blizzard's internal argument for delaying/ignoring the issue is that its a simple balance issue that will be "fixed" come WotLK much like it was in BC?

Then again, ret doesn't even get good for raiding until around T5 level (at least, IMO), so I think thats a stupid reasoning to have personally. Seal of Wrath please! Solve the issue AND give ret pallies a DPS boost.
#3518SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I know its been said before
Yes, it has.

Really we don't need more discussion on this. Unless someone wants to supply new numbers as to the actual disparity at given gear levels, the only thing remaining is to list everyones stance on the issue - and that's hardly necessary, productive, or interesting.

I understand why the alliance consistently point out the imbalance in their otherwise contribution-worthy posts - I'd be annoyed too - and have been at random faction imbalances in the past, in both directions - but this issue has been discussed to death and certainly doesn't need any additional posts dedicated to it.
#3519SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
I've had to stop my autoattack on Brutallus for fear of pulling aggro during the first 45 seconds. I'm not certain how removing salvation would affect my personal threat after those 45 seconds, but I'm not going to waste the time of 24 others to find out. My gear, however, is pretty good so I'm not missing or getting dodged much anymore. I think if I didn't have salvation across the full duration, I could pull aggro from the tanks at any point.

I'm surprised you're that close to the line - that has to be terribly annoying - so are you having to stagger your cooldowns outside of Bloodlust (AW for example), or is the threat you're talking about totally maximizing your dps for bursts, and then slowing down when you get too high?
#3520SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1grayrest
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
To answer the macro question, you can use the most basic macro since neither one touched a gcd. I use a similar one for my trinket cooldowns.

/use Haste Potion
/cast Avenging Wrath
/cast *whatever ability you want it linked to*
A slight variation for the cheap:

#showtooltip
/use [modifier:ctrl] Haste Potion
/cast Avenging Wrath
/use 13
/use 14
Hold down ctrl to get the dipis, don't hold down ctrl to be cheap. This works as long as the key combo you place the macro in isn't bound (e.g. if you're using the blizzard frames and put it on '6', make sure 'ctrl+6' isn't bound).
#3521SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Nex_moongladeEU View Post
120 is slightly more than what I would have put it on at the current gear level, but another SoB vs SoC thread is not really nessesary.
I don't claim to have gotten to this number myself, but this is what RAWR spits out and it's been fairly accurate so far, but lets not digress as others said. Suffice it to say, there is a gap, it's not small and it's only getting more significant with future gear.


Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
While we're on the topic of mana issues, for those of us stuck with a 3 pally raid and obviously sacrificing wisdom for salvation, would it be possible to swap your salv for a wisdom once a comfortable point has been reached where you're no longer at issue of pulling aggro? I know that for myself on fights like Teron or Mother, about 50% through the fight I am only around 60% of tank threat, and so drop my salvation for a wisdom on myself.
At that amount of DPS I don't think threat should be a problem.

I used to do those fights pre-threat reduction with BoS, so same threat gen and my DPS was similar to yours at the time (10 sec CS, wearing pre-resilience S2), if you don't do something stupid within the first 20 seconds you can do the fight without Salvation @ ~1450 dps. Salvation then switching to BoW should be very viable.


However I doubt you'll stay at that dps number for long especially at teron with gear upgrades at which point you really do need BoS, so it's not a practice I'm so sure I condone.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/23/08 at 2:47 PM.
#3522SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Cathmor
[Mayhem Projection Goggles] +[Glyph of Ferocity] +[Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Pauldrons of Berserking] + exalted enchant +[Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst][Inscribed Pyrestone]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] +12 AGI
[Warharness of Reckless Fury] +6 stats +3x [Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Lightbringer Bands] +12 STR +[Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Brutal Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] +15 STR
[Lightbringer Girdle] +[Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Felfury Legplates] +[Nethercobra Leg Armor] +3x[Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Dreadboots of the Legion] +12 AGI +2x[Inscribed Pyrestone]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Berserker's Call]
[Shard of Contempt]

/w [Apolyon, The Soul Render] + Mongoose +3x [Bold Crimson Spinel] and [Libram of Divine Judgement]

I can't get to a spreadsheet at work, but working it thru on paper and on another forum with others, I think this is the most efficient setup for an Engineer Human Retribution Paladin. It's at 98 hit rating, 105 expertise rating (including the racial), maximizes use of sockets with only 1 extra orange to get a +3 strength socket bonus, and concentrates on maximizing AP. How it differs from the set up linked 20-30 pages back is it doesn't incorporate the new rings, as haste doesn't scale as well for Alliance, and instead sticks with (what I'm assuming to be) the best BT/Hyjal rings. I also don't know the math on s4 gloves vs. Hard Khorium, but I'm erring on the side of the s4 glove bonus.

If someone would plug this into a spreadsheet and let me know what it spits out in comparison to some common alternate "ideal" sets, I'd love to see the results.

EDIT: Typo's on gemming, changed gems in shoulders and boots.

Last edited by Cathmor : 04/23/08 at 2:52 PM.
#3523SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azu
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
I'm surprised you're that close to the line - that has to be terribly annoying - so are you having to stagger your cooldowns outside of Bloodlust (AW for example), or is the threat you're talking about totally maximizing your dps for bursts, and then slowing down when you get too high?
I pretty much just go through my standard rotation. If I get a string of crits within the first 30 seconds, I jump up to about 104% threat and end up slamming my Escape key and just standing there until I feel safe enough to start again. I generally pop AW at 0:30 and then at 5:30 when we BL, but I've stopped using Haste Pots with the first AW.
#3524SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Why don't you use Rawr?

The ring combo you listed is what I used up until 2.4, since then I've dropped the Eternal Champion for a crafted [Hard Khorium Band] and will drop the Unstoppable aggressor for [Band of Ruinous Delight].

Despite lower priority stats for alliance, these rings win through brute force itemlevel. They just have a lot of everything.


Also [Crown of Anasterian] as well as many leather alternatives (down to [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]) outperform the engineering ones by a fairly large margin (~23 DPS for the Crown).

I'd say the engineering one is useful to use as an intermediate upgrade if you don't want to go leather as the Crown drops from Kil'jaden presumably, but doesn't hold it's own in the overall endgame set.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/23/08 at 3:01 PM.
#3525SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Cathmor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Why don't you use Rawr?

The ring combo you listed is what I used up until 2.4, since then I've dropped the Eternal Champion for a crafted [Hard Khorium Band] and will drop the Unstoppable aggressor for [Band of Ruinous Delight].

Despite lower priority stats for alliance, these rings win through brute force itemlevel. They just have a lot of everything.


Also [Crown of Anasterian] as well as many leather alternatives (down to [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]) outperform the engineering ones by a fairly large margin (~23 DPS for the Crown).

I'd say the engineering one is useful to use as an intermediate upgrade if you don't want to go leather as the Crown drops from Kil'jaden presumably.
I couldn't get the Rawr application to start on my work computer, and haven't the knowledge to troubleshoot it. I'll try again.

Math'ing it out on my notepad here, I thought that the Aggressor's/Eternal Champion rings had a sizeable AP lead after raid buffs (in the Aggressor's case) and the Eternal proc were counted (all though I do not know the proc chance/up-time). The [Band of Ruinous Delight], on a second look, does seem like it would outperform either ring I listed. I'm not sold on the Hard Khorium - Aggressor's is 87.12 AP after Divine Strength and Kings, which is a 29 AP gap between it and the Hard Khorium ring. Does 28 haste rating truly outperform either the Eternal proc or 29 static AP, even for an Alliance paladin?

And the Mayhem vs Crown depresses me, makes me think I should have rolled LW for drums ages ago. Anyway, I'll go back and try to fix Rawr on this comp, see what the numbers actually say.
EDIT: A thought on Mayhem vs Crown - Dropping the goggles for the Crown loses a lot of hit, where would I gain it back? If the answer is gloves with the khorium battlefists, then all I did was reiterate the set that Theras linked 30 pages ago. Go me...

Last edited by Cathmor : 04/23/08 at 3:20 PM.
#3526SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
According to rawr, there's roughly a 6 DPS increase from Unstoppable Aggressor -> Hard Khorium and more from Eternal Champion.

Unstoppable Agressor = 87.12 AP and 1.36% crit with talents/buffs
Hard Khorium = 58 AP, 1.32% crit and 28 haste rating (1.78% hasted speed) with talents buffs


I know as alliance we tend to shy away from haste out of principle, but that's why rawr and such tools are so useful, they point out upgrades you might not have considered.

Essentially it's pretty much ~29 AP for +1.78% autoattack damage.
#3527SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1xellos
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
And the Mayhem vs Crown depresses me, makes me think I should have rolled LW for drums ages ago. Anyway, I'll go back and try to fix Rawr on this comp, see what the numbers actually say.
EDIT: A thought on Mayhem vs Crown - Dropping the goggles for the Crown loses a lot of hit, where would I gain it back? If the answer is gloves with the khorium battlefists, then all I did was reiterate the set that Theras linked 30 pages ago. Go me...
If you do go LW, [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is an option although your rogues would probably kill you first. Another option that the rogues would kill you for is [Duplicitous Guise]. Unfortunately it seems like keeping at least 1 pre-2.4 item for hit is required in most ideal gear setups. I'm keeping [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] in my ideal future gear set until all our rogues get [Duplicitous Guise] hah.
#3528SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I have to agree with avitus.

The only thing to be careful of is whether or not the piece you are looking at is necessary for hit/expertise cap. If it is, but you have another option then Rawr may be over-valuing the item. In addition, the same applies to the reverse scenario, where you may already be capped and you ignore an item that is otherwise an upgrade (like [Hard Khorium Battlefists], which if used for the hit are far and away the best item for the glove slot for blood elves).

Just be careful with your decisions and make sure to play around with different sets.
#3529SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
EDIT: A thought on Mayhem vs Crown - Dropping the goggles for the Crown loses a lot of hit, where would I gain it back? If the answer is gloves with the khorium battlefists, then all I did was reiterate the set that Theras linked 30 pages ago. Go me...
Yea that set is about 17 dps ahead :S Engineering helm does have its merrits though till Crown if you don't have CVoS or don't wanna go leather.
#3530SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ertai
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
One more alliance WWS, this weeks Brut kill:

Wow Web Stats

1977 DPS
No special group: Ret, War, Enh, Rogue, Rogue
2 heroisms
So i've been comparing your WWS to some of my own on Brutallus. After upgrading to the Torch from Jin'Rohk i got stuck at around 1400 DPS on our latest Brut kill which i find quite dissappointing. (WWS - Wow Web Stats
While comparing to yours i noticed that your crit % on your hits is a lot higher than mine while we got approximatly the same unbuffed crit % when compared on the Armory.

My rotations also seems to be the same, i have around the same number of hits when compared to you but i also had some more dodges due to the lack of proper expertise so far.

What am i missing out here? How do you get your crit % up that high on an encounter?
#3531SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Playlogic
so today was my first time retri in a 25 man. unfortunately also 1 of our worst bt nights ever :p so dont click on other tries

WWS Loading...

this the log from teron kill.. i had 1588 dps in a tank group. had leader of the pack.. and non-improved windfury

i did 1 or 2 screwups i think but i think i did fine.

i saw some dedicated posters calculate missed strikes and concecrations etc. is there anyone that culd help me bit concerning that.. or just explain me how to calculate it. reading the posts didnt quite make me understand ^^

gn
#3532SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Playlogic
Ertai your crits wont get higher with more %crit.. it scales with ap.. maybe he has more ap during raid .. dunno :p
#3533SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
Some good numbers posted by other Paladins on Brutallus, particularly those going north of 2000 DPS.

Unfortunately on Brutallus (and Felmyst now too) I have been kicked out of the melee group and relegated to the tank group. When we had Feral/Warrior tanks on Brutallus we would maybe (in 1/4 attempts) have aggro issues, with either a Warlock or Mage pulling aggro at some point. A throwaway comment was made in vent about maybe trying it with a Paladin tank and so to help his threat I had to be moved into his group.

Threat was then no longer an issue, but obviously my DPS sank through the floor since I was now getting 0 buffs. The melee group is now Rogue/Rogue/Enhance/MS/Feral and I'm sitting in group 1 doing dinky DPS. On the kill I was just over 1200 DPS which is about as good as I'm going to do without Battle Shout/Windfury/LotP/BM/Str of Earth. The Feral in the melee group ended up at just over 1550 DPS.

In the melee group (on previous attempts) I was usually at ~1800 DPS (since then it was me/MS/Rogue/Rogue/Enhance) but now I'm the Sanctity bitch things are just on a downward turn.

I know we have to do what's best for the raid, but I suspect that the Prot Paladin does not need Sanctity in order to keep aggro. I believe putting me in the Feral's melee spot and then putting maybe a BM Hunter in the tank group would be the way to go as that would be an instant 500-600 DPS gain for me, and while losing LotP from the other melee would suck I think the gains I would receive would outweigh the losses they would have. Plus they'd be getting 2% damage also, which would go some way to mitigating losing 5% crit.
#3534SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Ertai View Post
What am i missing out here? How do you get your crit % up that high on an encounter?
Ive been denied a Torch of the Damned by the loot gods, so I'm using a Cats Edge with Executioner. Needless to say that hurts my crit a lot.

These WWS's with monster crit rates I am chalking up to good crit luck. Leader of the Pack helps a lot, but there is not too much you can do to up your crit rating unless you wanted to go with the Libram of Avengement instead of Divine Judgement.
#3535SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Obbee
Just did 2033 dps on brutallus as alliance
Wow Web Stats
not a super stacked group, just rogue+ench+ms warrior and a bm hunter and I got 2 heroisms, horrible kill tho think both our mages died and we still use 8 healers =/
#3536SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Voinov
Am I in the truth

I am raiding Ret pal for months. But in my current guild, I was fed up with the group formation.

Tonight, it was the last straw, I did not agree an officier and that led to my gkick.

Am i in the true :

The first group was : War Main Tank / Hunt BM / Hunt survival / Rogue / Ret Pal (me)
The second group was : Enhancement Chaman / Rogue / Rogue / War dps / Feral drood.


The officier is the feral dood and i wanted to switch with him.

Well, i have been gkicked but is my honour safe and am I in the truth ?

Just to say, the MT is an irl friend and this guild lost its MT :>
big drama.
#3537SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ertai
Originally Posted by Playlogic View Post
Ertai your crits wont get higher with more %crit.. it scales with ap.. maybe he has more ap during raid .. dunno :p
I know and that wasn't what i meant. The % of his attacks that crit is just plain higher with comparable stats. I'm not referring to his max crits, just the % of his melee swings that critted.


Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Ive been denied a Torch of the Damned by the loot gods, so I'm using a Cats Edge with Executioner. Needless to say that hurts my crit a lot.

These WWS's with monster crit rates I am chalking up to good crit luck. Leader of the Pack helps a lot, but there is not too much you can do to up your crit rating unless you wanted to go with the Libram of Avengement instead of Divine Judgement.
Ye, i considered this as well but as i look at Avitus his WWS i noticed that he wasnt using Avengement but was using Divine Judgement. I wouldn't call it pure luck either, it's far too consistent to be "just a lucky streak".
#3538SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Buliwyf
Raid Performance > Personal Performance. On Kalecgos I get put in with a caster group, it's just how they shuffle the pack and as officers and raid leaders, it's their prerogative. Just so they understand what effect doing so would have. I would say personal DPS is not something worth getting kicked for.

I'd say their group placement of you was wrong, but I'd say you didn't do yourself any favours.

Last edited by Buliwyf : 04/23/08 at 7:52 PM. Reason: Capitals
#3539SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Ertai View Post
So i've been comparing your WWS to some of my own on Brutallus. After upgrading to the Torch from Jin'Rohk i got stuck at around 1400 DPS on our latest Brut kill which i find quite dissappointing. (WWS - Wow Web Stats
While comparing to yours i noticed that your crit % on your hits is a lot higher than mine while we got approximatly the same unbuffed crit % when compared on the Armory.

My rotations also seems to be the same, i have around the same number of hits when compared to you but i also had some more dodges due to the lack of proper expertise so far.

What am i missing out here? How do you get your crit % up that high on an encounter?
Off the top of my head, I have slightly under 34% crit unbuffed (33.82%):

+~2% with Mongoose
+ 0.72% with Imp MotW
+ 3% from JotC
+ 3.52% from GoA twisting
+ ~0.97% from BoK on top of all that

44.03%

+/- 2-3% of that should be acceptable

Had 45% on CS, 47% on auto-attack and 48% on SoC, so that's within acceptable parameters, maybe a bit on the "lucky" side unless I missed some buff in my numbers.


Checking your armory you have 32% crit unbuffed, following the same math (assuming you have all the same buffs) you should have about 42.21% crit with everything.


You had 35% on CS, 29% on auto-attack and 24% on SoC?? That's less than you should have even if completely unbuffed.

Did you have all the buffs listed? Was your Shammy twisting WF/GoA?

You also had 2 parries (you should avoid that) and a 27% glancing (bad luck, not sure if glancing eats into crit rate since it's single roll, but it shouldn't really).



Looking at your Try No. 6 you had significantly higher crit rates, pretty much what should be expected from your gear/buffs, then other tries it seems horribly low.

Looks to me like very bad luck with the RNG at some other tries/the kill, usually +/- 2% is acceptable, but this is brutal. Excluding RNG, I can't pinpoint anything else that's wrong, maybe someone else has some input.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/23/08 at 8:16 PM.
#3540SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Playlogic View Post
i saw some dedicated posters calculate missed strikes and concecrations etc. is there anyone that culd help me bit concerning that.. or just explain me how to calculate it. reading the posts didnt quite make me understand ^^
You know, the main reason they're there is to give an example on how to do it yourself, it's really not that hard :P

Hell there's more text there than we would like, but it's really posting every baby step so new guys can do it themselves


Originally Posted by Gaffadin View Post
I know we have to do what's best for the raid, but I suspect that the Prot Paladin does not need Sanctity in order to keep aggro. I believe putting me in the Feral's melee spot and then putting maybe a BM Hunter in the tank group would be the way to go as that would be an instant 500-600 DPS gain for me, and while losing LotP from the other melee would suck I think the gains I would receive would outweigh the losses they would have. Plus they'd be getting 2% damage also, which would go some way to mitigating losing 5% crit.
You're correct, your prot paladin shouldn't need sanctity, what sort of gear is he using (armory link)? If he needs it to perform, then I don't think you're the one slacking. Your suggestion sounds valid to me. Also have you considered giving him a resto shammy?


Originally Posted by Voinov View Post
Am i in the true :
If your talking about pure theory, then yes your group suggestions are correct. In practice however, sometimes that's not the only factor. Player performance is a big factor many times.

Not sure anyone can really answer you this conclusively without knowing the full story, or that this would be the correct forums to discuss such a thing (no).
#3541SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
...not sure if glancing eats into crit rate since it's single role, but it shouldn't really
This is how it works for Cats, I have no clue if this is the same for Retadins:

For Cats, White attacks are 1-roll
For Cats, Yellow attacks are 2-roll; attacks that don't hit, can't crit. Raise your crit rate by getting hit-capped, and try to get a good chunk of exp (hard to cap it without going significantly over cap, or using way sub-par items, so not usually worth it to get it capped)

If it works the same way, it may explain at least why yellow crit rates are lower for him, if he's missing/getting dodged/getting parried alot more than you.

Again, I make no claim that it works this way for Retadins, just sharing how it works for Cats, and that it might be similar.
#3542SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Yea it does work the same way for us, still the 29% crit on white hits (when even his unbuffed gear should give him 32%) baffles me.

Looking a bit more closely, you didn't have GoA twisting (worth ~4% crit with BoK), did JotC drop off (that's another 3%)?

Still with the few buffs that you should have as a no brainer, it's either pretty brutal RNG or we're missing something.
#3543SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
vorda
I used to have a WWS log around of our ret pala (simular crit rates as the ones posted here, and a traditional melee group setup with totem twisting) hitting 18% crit on a teron kill. RNG can hurt.

(made sure to check his gear for broken items and such, everything was fine)

edit: actually, just compare the log from this week and last week. (I was playing him both times, he has to work alot during evenings). It would be a correct statement that I have my rotations much more under control now I think. (I only play this char for 30 mins a week on brut)

this week: Basics - WWS
last week: Basics - WWS

edit: I posted these logs to show how big the difference in crit can be and how 2-3% of your char pane often can't really go as a rule for the RNG. I know how to check WWS and I think I made very little mistakes today

Last edited by vorda : 04/23/08 at 11:15 PM.
#3544SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Darksided
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Don't quote me on this, but I believe using a pre-BC rank of SOW (rank 3) will allow it to use the pre-BC debuff priority system, preventing JOW from being knocked off, although you will obviously return less mana per proc (from 74 to 59).
We have had a lot of trouble with JoW dropping off Brutallus in the past, depending on our exact class balance (number of shadow priests, etc.). Recently we have had one of our holy paladins (42/11/8) judge rank 6 SotC, while I judge max rank JoW. As the level 60 debuffs have Blizzard's bizarro priority system properly implemented and I'm constantly refreshing JoW with melee swings, both judgements have been much more stable. I definitely recommend this method if your other paladins can afford to spec this way.
#3545SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Bart00
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
We have had a lot of trouble with JoW dropping off Brutallus in the past, depending on our exact class balance (number of shadow priests, etc.). Recently we have had one of our holy paladins (42/11/8) judge rank 6 SotC, while I judge max rank JoW. As the level 60 debuffs have Blizzard's bizarro priority system properly implemented and I'm constantly refreshing JoW with melee swings, both judgements have been much more stable. I definitely recommend this method if your other paladins can afford to spec this way.
Hmm dunno, it really seems that JoW from another paladin procs a lot more for me than my own.
#3546SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ertai
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Yea it does work the same way for us, still the 29% crit on white hits (when even his unbuffed gear should give him 32%) baffles me.

Looking a bit more closely, you didn't have GoA twisting (worth ~4% crit with BoK), did JotC drop off (that's another 3%)?

Still with the few buffs that you should have as a no brainer, it's either pretty brutal RNG or we're missing something.
JotC was up all the time, the only thing that *might* have fallen off was JoW due how the priority's work. The twisting wasnt being done, i recall that now, but i got told that he was doing it on earlier fights. On earlier kills, where i was still using Jin'Rohk, i had some higher crit % (WWS Wow Web Stats but the difference when compared to you was still astronomical.

Could it be that Expertise has a bigger influence on it than i'm currently thinking? Seeing as i have only the racial 5 rating and you got quite a bit more.
#3547SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1vorda
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
We have had a lot of trouble with JoW dropping off Brutallus in the past, depending on our exact class balance (number of shadow priests, etc.). Recently we have had one of our holy paladins (42/11/8) judge rank 6 SotC, while I judge max rank JoW. As the level 60 debuffs have Blizzard's bizarro priority system properly implemented and I'm constantly refreshing JoW with melee swings, both judgements have been much more stable. I definitely recommend this method if your other paladins can afford to spec this way.
While this works for you, your raid didnt really solve the debuff issue. Other debuffs will drop now, one of which can be thunderclap or demo shout.

A quick fix that works for almost all raid layouts is asking your rogues to use instant instead of deadly and making sure your locks aren't using immolate (assuming they are 0/21/40 sb spam spec).
#3548SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I have yet to have an ideal brutallus, but last night I did 2.1k DPS on teron with my BT portal neck on (I know, I'm amazing). I'm thinking next week I might be able to break 2k on brutallus, hopefully the rogue who is using imp Expose will do a good job like last week (I died right when we got bloodlust, damn burn!).
#3549SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1xellos
Shouldn't be a problem for you to break 2k. I was able to do so with 2 BL and 5 drums (MS warrior and myself will have drums by next week). Group included MS warrior/enhancement shaman/feral druid. At this point, I don't think hitting 2k is a big deal with a reasonable group, more than 1 BL, and [Drums of Battle]. The new pinnacle should be 2100.
#3550SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Arikah
Originally Posted by xellos View Post
Shouldn't be a problem for you to break 2k. I was able to do so with 2 BL and 5 drums (MS warrior and myself will have drums by next week). Group included MS warrior/enhancement shaman/feral druid. At this point, I don't think hitting 2k is a big deal with a reasonable group, more than 1 BL, and [Drums of Battle]. The new pinnacle should be 2100.
2k is still quite a feat, especially as a paladin. Got 2078 dps this week, i figure with another piece in any slot 2100 will be broken. Expertise is absolutely the best way to increase dps, Ertai, and the 3 new pieces with a shard of contempt is enough to cap out - not seeing a dodge ever again will be amazing.
#3551SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Yea, expertise is amazing. I only have shard and the T6 wrists, and I've noticed a HUGE dps boost, as well as a lot fewer CS dodges (meaning its easier to keep up on bosses where I run around a lot).
#3552SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sideshow
Hey guys,

I'm trying to improve rotation..

Latest VR kill

(I know how to improve my toon gear wise (expertise, pvp gloves, etc) and I didn't feel like flasking or food/scroll buffing for just VR, and I forgot to switch back to SOC rank 6) - BUT that's all configured correctly in the spreadsheet, so it's my rotation that is really killing me I guess

According to the spreadsheet my DPS should have been 1224, but I was at 971
Wow Web Stats

Now it says I was DPSing 337 seconds, so I could have done 56 crusader strikes vs the 33 it says I did.. but if I paste the log into excel and only look at crusader strikes, they are 90% of the time done done within 7 seconds of each other (6 + some fraction of a second), and I only lost 32 seconds total on the entire fight

by the same 337 seconds it says it means I should have 93 auto-attacks, but I only had 78 - and that should be dead on since VR didn't move out of my range on that fight (why the discrepancy??)

my judgement is low because since I forgot to swap out rank 6, and my mod locks action bars during combat I tried to priortize consecration over it

It's just 253 DPS difference from spreadsheet and wws (especially when I'm specifying rank 1 SOC, my buffs, debuffs, etc - and on a fight I could just make a macro for 100% of the time) it seems like I'm way off and doing something wrong

how else can I analyze my fight to improve what I'm doing within the confines of my buffs/debuffs (even if I don't use judgement at all, and drop down to rank 1 cons spreadsheet shows me at 1079 DPS vs my 971)

thx!
#3553SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but a lot of people who come here have no idea how to read WWS reports.

The "hits" on your ability category are not your total amount of attacks. They are simply the sum of your normal hits and your glancing blows. The "hits" do not count critical strikes. To figure out how many times you actually hit the boss you have to manually add the crits and the hits.

NOT Total hits!!!

+ = Total Hits!!!

Add your hits and crits and misses and you have your actual number of swings.

You actually had 124 autoattacks and 51 CS's, which is well within acceptable margins.

As for why your DPS is low: Void Reaver has close to 11000 armor before debuffs. The spreadsheet is set to something like 8600 armor. The rest of it was most likely just bad luck with RNG.
#3554SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elzam
I have been unable to find enchantment suggestions on this thread since I've begun to follow it dozens of pages ago; if I overlooked the solution to this, please forgive me....

I'm a raiding Retribution Paladin, Elzam on Akama-US if you need to look me up, but currently I am in a prime position; I am the only Retribution Paladin in the guild, I am the Melee DPS Officer, and I've crammed enough theorycraft down raid leader throats that I'm never without Windfury at least (lately it's been MS War / Ret / Enhance / Rogue / Rogue).

Anyways, with that group composition in mind, my DPS is skyrocketing lately as I'm making some minor adjustments to my gear and trying out new combinations (I'm personally liking the SSO Neck over Pendant of Perilous at the moment, for example, although I haven't pumped out the hard numbers to check). This is good, although it's not new as I've always been able to squeak out in at least the top six in nearly every boss kill.

However, I'm running into major threat problems. In not only sensitive fights like Gurtogg Bloodboil with its multiple tanks, but also in fights such as basically any in Hyjal (I almost pulled once on Archimonde even; I was in the zone when it came to avoiding Doomfires and keeping DPS up :P). I'm always salv'ed and even in a low number of Paladin group I'm always at least putting single Salv on myself. Everyone else has Greater Salv typically. I am not suggesting that there is a difference between the two blessings other than their durations, but I am finding that my Enhancement friend is continously pushing more DPS out than I am (usually around 40-60k more on average) but never nipping at the MT's heels.

So, TLDR and all that, is there any hard math that would suggest that Subtlety would be a major impact? I'm sure that even if it allows 2-3k more damage that's more damage than I was doing beforehand, but is that the limit of its influence over threat? I'm feeling pinned by the threat monster and classes with threat dumps are obviously beginning to have an easier time passing me.

Is subtlety the only true option at this point, or am I going to have to consider yelling at the MT for more threat?
#3555SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I'll quickly sum it up for you Elzam, but for future reference you should use the search function on these boards, we covered this at least 2 times in this thread.

In general, mongoose > savagery = executioner > anything else. Executioner can be best in very specific situations, and requires a good deal of personal armor penetration.

For non weapons, go by the general rule of str > crit > other stuff. If you have threat issues as a ret paladin, barring the occasional rediculous early burst (lots of WF's and crits), then the issue isn't you... it's your tank. I am never close to capped on threat on anything except for Gurtogg Bloodboil, the only people who SOMETIMES are would be the warlocks and rogues. Unless I'm missing something, you might want to forward your tank to their appropriate classes' tanking thread.
#3556SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I'll quickly sum it up for you Elzam, but for future reference you should use the search function on these boards, we covered this at least 2 times in this thread.

In general, mongoose > savagery = executioner > anything else. Executioner can be best in very specific situations, and requires a good deal of personal armor penetration.
I believe he was talking about Subtlety enchant to cloak, Zurm, not weapon enchants.
#3557SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Yea, I re-read the post and updated. For cloak, you shouldn't need subtelty. If you are always threat capped as a ret paladin, then either you outgear your tanks severely, or your tanks need to suck less. If you have 5/5 Fanatisism AND salv, your tank needs to step it up.

To give you a value, use omen. If your tank isn't pulling at least 1k TPS on most fights, they are doing something wrong, not you. Our warrior and druid MTs easily push 12-1300 TPS on most fights, as high as 1500 on some like Teron Gorefiend.
#3558SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Between Salv and Fanatisism you have a 51% reduced threat.

With the Sub cloak enchant you're looking at a whopping 51.98% threat reduction.

No, its not worth it. Your tanks are either having major problems or you seriously outgear everyone (and how on earth are your destro locks not pulling like crazy?).
#3559SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elzam
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Between Salv and Fanatisism you have a 51% reduced threat.

With the Sub cloak enchant you're looking at a whopping 51.98% threat reduction.

No, its not worth it. Your tanks are either having major problems or you seriously outgear everyone (and how on earth are your destro locks not pulling like crazy?).
They are. Our tanks have never been holding our DPS back before as our MT has always been applauded as having excellent TPS, but I'm beginning to think that perhaps she's holding back a bit lately or becoming too comfortable. I know that at least 2 of our Destro Locks usually have time to climb up to her threat, Shatter, and then be back up there keeping me company.

I'll stick with my +12 Agi then and try to find ways to help the tank's TPS. Granted, it came to me after the post that lately we've only had one Enhance and they've been in the melee group with the tank not getting any; this is after a period during Kael-Vashj where we would sometimes have three excellent Enhancement Shamans in the raid at a time.
#3560SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Our tanks rarely get a shaman, they shouldn't need it to hold aggro. Once again, get your tanks to step it up
#3561SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Between Salv and Fanatisism you have a 51% reduced threat.

With the Sub cloak enchant you're looking at a whopping 51.98% threat reduction.

No, its not worth it. Your tanks are either having major problems or you seriously outgear everyone (and how on earth are your destro locks not pulling like crazy?).
Why do you think that math proves Subtlety is useless?

Salvation lets you deal 43% more damage per threat. (1/0.7)
Fantacism lets you deal 43% more damage per threat. (1/0.7)
Subtlety lets you deal 2~% more damage per threat. (1/0.98)


They all stack multiplicatively (1 / (0.7 * 0.7 * 0.98) = 208% more damage per threat), so there's no diminishing returns or anything here. *IF* you're threat capped, then Subtlety is 2% more damage. That's a lot more than the DPS bonus of 12 agi (0.5~% crit. which is not quite +0.5% DPS).

The tanks might have sucky threat generation, but we don't have much control over that - if someone needs more threat reduction to do more damage safely, then Subtlety is the logical choice.
#3562SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elzam
I'm glad to have spurred such thought, but...

I fixed it, sorry. I mapped out the damage dealt by my Fury Warrior as well as the threat Omen was displaying for him which was correct in its reduction for Imp Zerker Stance and other modifiers, and then did so for Elzam. It was displaying Elzam's threat as 100% of his damage without Salv up, and with Salv up was only displaying a 30% threat reduction instead of the 50-51% that it should be.

It turns out that a couple weeks ago Omen had an issue with not registering reduced threat from Fanatacism and I am a very lazy person when it comes to updating my mods; I figured as long as Omen was displaying threat it was working; turns out it wasn't. Updated it, charted the numbers, and it's displaying the proper threat reduction now.

Sometimes it's the simplest solutions... no subtlety for me. ^_^
#3563SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
You're correct, your prot paladin shouldn't need sanctity, what sort of gear is he using (armory link)? If he needs it to perform, then I don't think you're the one slacking. Your suggestion sounds valid to me. Also have you considered giving him a resto shammy?
Our Prot Paladin (who is also an exceptional Holy Paladin) has pretty much best-in-slot excluding Sunwell gear. The only thing he's missing is the Commendation trinket, aside from that he is pretty much set. He can tank Hyjal in his sleep, although I expect that's the case for most Prot Paladins these days.

It's Brutallus night tonight so we'll see what happens. I will say that it's a little demoralising when I spend a ton of gold on food, scrolls and pots and perform exceptionally well to then get kicked out of the melee group. Maybe this will change, we will see.
#3564SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Why do you think that math proves Subtlety is useless?

Salvation lets you deal 43% more damage per threat. (1/0.7)
Fantacism lets you deal 43% more damage per threat. (1/0.7)
Subtlety lets you deal 2~% more damage per threat. (1/0.98)


They all stack multiplicatively (1 / (0.7 * 0.7 * 0.98) = 208% more damage per threat), so there's no diminishing returns or anything here. *IF* you're threat capped, then Subtlety is 2% more damage. That's a lot more than the DPS bonus of 12 agi (0.5~% crit. which is not quite +0.5% DPS).

The tanks might have sucky threat generation, but we don't have much control over that - if someone needs more threat reduction to do more damage safely, then Subtlety is the logical choice.
You're relying on an absolutely massive IF here. With 51% of your threat being washed away you should almost never be in that "if" situation if you have halfway decent tanks. If somehow you're threat capped on a non-threat sensitive fight then I'm willing to bet 99 out of 100 times its a problem with the tank.

Lets say you have your normal awesome tank with windfury, Mr. Tank 1, putting out 1500 TPS. In order to match his TPS I'll have to be pulling almost 3000 DPS with just salv and talents. I'll never get there, so it isn't an issue and Sub is completely worthless.

Lets say you have a bad tank, Mr. Tank 2 and he is only pushing 850 TPS. Even without Sub, I'll still have to be breaking 1700 DPS to match him. Yes, I might be able to get to 1700 DPS and sub wouldn't be worthless because it would allow me to push a little harder, but that isn't the problem. If I'm able to get up to 1700 DPS and the MT is only putting out 850 TPS there is a problem with the tank, not me. 1700 DPS is high end BT gear, and tanks should be putting out at least 1200-1300 in that kind of gear. If your tanks suck at generating threat you get them to fix their rotations, just like a crappy DPS player has to fix his.

In short, if you have a tank who knows how to press buttons in order you should never need sub, which makes it worthless.
#3565SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sapp
I'm starting to be at my wits end here; is there any way to get someone to even acknowledge the existence of the Seal of Blood imbalance? It's so massive, and the fact that no one official seems to even notice the existence of the problem really really bothers me.

It doesn't help that I get to watch opposite faction paladins reroll ret on a whim and use a terrible cycle to beat my perfect-cycle damage, in inferior gear.
#3566SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Gaffadin View Post
Our Prot Paladin (who is also an exceptional Holy Paladin) has pretty much best-in-slot excluding Sunwell gear. The only thing he's missing is the Commendation trinket, aside from that he is pretty much set.
That doesn't really say anything useful. Best in slot can mean so many things for tanking.

Specifically, how much spelldamage does he have on his gear (how much "warrior tanking gear" is he using)? 4 set T6 bonus? What's his Mainhand? What trinkets/libram? Is he using wizard oil?
#3567SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaffadin
4-pc T6.

[Hammer of Judgement] [Ancient Aqir Artifact] [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance]

504 spell damage, doesn't use oil to tank.

The World of Warcraft Armory
#3568SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Theras
Originally Posted by Gaffadin View Post
504 spell damage, doesn't use oil to tank.
What the devil is he putting on his weapon, then? Wizard Oil costs roughly 2 gold per hour, you'd be insane to be skipping it in a Shamanless group (and then only if Windfury is being dropped).

Last edited by Theras : 04/24/08 at 9:30 PM.
#3569SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1vorda
edit: sorry, I didnt get the context.
#3570SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eathir
*pokes in to join the forums*

Recently (dinged about a month ago) rerolled to paladin and retri after looking over the patchnotes and gearchanges that occured with 2.3 and 2.4 and have been spending my time gearing up in what atleast i think is some sort of decent level. It has been ages since i played a melee DPS class before and found myself, after looking over WWS logs, wondering a bit about glancing hits, is there any way to bring the amount down or is it just bad luck? (for instance, our latest Anetheron kill: WWS). Spent the entire fight threatcapped (damn that sleep effect on tanks...) or i ought to have been able to push out a bit more DPS then i did in that attempt.
#3571SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
A quick fix that works for almost all raid layouts is asking your rogues to use instant instead of deadly
From the Debuff Knock-off thread, it was concluded that switching Rogues from Rupture to Eviscerate is a smaller DPS loss than switching from Deadly Poison to Instant Poison.

Then, if you still need to drop more debuffs, Rogues should switch from Deadly Poison to [Righteous Weapon Coating]. Switching to Instant Poison causes your Rogues to consume Stormstrike charges, which is a significant hit to raid DPS since those charges should be consumed by Elemental Shaman instead.

Other recommendations from the thread include avoiding having more than one Affliction Warlock, Destro Locks going Shadow (since Fire would require Immolates to power their Incinerates) and Enhancement Shaman use Earthshock instead of Flameshock (although it would have to be timed until after Stormstrike charges have been used to avoid raid DPS loss).

Your Locks may also use Curse of Shadow rank 2 and/or Curse of the Elements rank 3, which offer the same 10% damage increase while still using pre-BC debuff priority.
#3572SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Highborne
New from Patch Notes 2.4.2

* Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
* Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.
#3573SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Highborne View Post
New from Patch Notes 2.4.2

* Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
* Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.
Oh god... Are they really trying to actually make SotC worth using for something... Use this dev time to fix Seal of Command instead damn it, forget about Crusader.

Anyway, it is confirmed here. My toon should be transfered over tomorrow so I'll check it out then.

Two things to find out:
1) Is the 40% damage bonus in addition to the extra AP or does it replace it?
2) Does the additional 40% damage make seal weaving viable? (my gut says no)

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 04/25/08 at 12:25 AM.
#3574SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
SotC fixes, what horrible waste of time...

Originally Posted by Gaffadin View Post
I'll re-iterate what has been said: No wizard oil?? Why the hell not (with no shammy)? It's 42 free spelldamage.

Still, spelldamage on his gear looks decent enough, should be able to keep aggro there without Sanctity. Brutallus hits very fast = Holy Shield threat galore. Anyway, lets not digress, since this is the ret thread after all.

Suffice it to say, there's definitely smarter (and less raid dps damaging) ways to buff protadin TPS than taking the ret paladin and losing a minimum 500 DPS in a fight where group stacking is the key. A BM hunter (3%) and/or a resto shammy would make much more sense and should be enough.


Originally Posted by Eathir View Post
wondering a bit about glancing hits
I've had fights with up to 38% glancing I kid you not. This is exactly where I draw the line between interesting/fun mechanic and an annoying one.

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do against it (not anymore). You can get hit capped, you can get expertise capped, but glancing is always going to remain (normal should be 20-25% but can vary wildly).

Bad luck with glancing blows can easily lower your DPS by a couple hundred (up to ~300) if it's just one of those days. If I get unusually low results in a fight, glancing percentage and whether there were any parries is where I usually look first.

Welcome to RNG.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/25/08 at 12:56 AM.
#3575SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Highborne
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Oh god... Are they really trying to actually make SotC worth using for something... Use this dev time to fix Seal of Command instead damn it, forget about Crusader.

Anyway, it is confirmed here. My toon should be transfered over tomorrow so I'll check it out then.

Two things to find out:
1) Is the 40% damage bonus in addition to the extra AP or does it replace it?
2) Does the additional 40% damage make seal weaving viable? (my gut says no)
Not quite sure yet.

What it looks like is that it won't reduce the damage done by CS by 20% anymore (I would hope) and just give it a 40% increase right on top of it.

Though you now lose out on Judgement damage (unless you "twist" seals with CS rotation which will cause some GCD issues), SotC is mitigated by armor, and makes Sanctified Judgement, Benediction, Imp Judgement, Fanaticism (half of it) all but completely useless.

I am hoping it is actually supposed to be Judgement of the Crusader where it gives the 40% CS damage bonus...though that would be a gigantic DPS boost in PvE, and decent in PvP even.
#3576SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
My god I hope I don't have to weave SotC in for every CS and switch back to Blood for white hits and judgements. Not that it would be overly manageable, but just knowing it was there would make me want to.
#3577SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Highborne View Post
Though you now lose out on Judgement damage (unless you "twist" seals with CS rotation which will cause some GCD issues), SotC is mitigated by armor, and makes Sanctified Judgement, Benediction, Imp Judgement, Fanaticism (half of it) all but completely useless.
SotC has always been a mystery to me. It's just such a completely useless gimmick Seal that likes to contradict itself a lot:

"Here, have a Seal that gives you more AP while active!"

"Cool, so it makes me hit harder?"

"Nah, another feature of it is that it makes you hit for less damage."

"So wait, why did you make it give more AP again?"

"..."

I think it's pretty funny that it still exists in our spellbook despite this nonsense, with 7 ranks of it no less.

That's only one of its oddities, the other of course being that the Seal segment of it serves no purpose: From a damage perspective, you could say it's a Seal that does "nothing". You hit faster, but you hit for less, so you gain nothing really. (Nothing that would register as a tangible dps increase in any case. Going to re-examine this claim later.)


Now regarding the "buffs" in the patch notes, I'm equally uncertain as to why they're there and whether they might be vague and mean something else than what is written there (JotC buffs).

Looking at the patch notes:

* Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
* Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.

I think the first line is a bugfix/buff to it reducing CS damage by 20% previously, though no one can understand why exactly they thought that was a needed fix as the Seal is worthless and no one in their right mind uses it. "No one cares".

The second line however, I highly suspect they mean JotC not SotC and that's just a typo/being vague. Reason for this is that while CS used to be weapon damage + 40% of spelldamage, JotC did give it a slight boost, where as now it doesn't since the new CS doesn't make use of those 219 spelldamage anymore.

So I'm assuming it means "CS will do a bit more damage on mobs with JotC now, basically the same amount 219 spelldamage gave to the old CS", which would be nice, but not earth shattering.


Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
2) Does the additional 40% damage make seal weaving viable? (my gut says no)
Well, looking at some WWS logs, my damage breakdown is roughly 50% white, 20% CS, 20% (SoC + JoC), 10% (Consecration + Exorcism + left over fractions).

A 40% damage increase to CS would therefore roughly be an 8% damage increase overall, which is incredible.

Now whether it's weave-able, I have the same gut feeling: No.

In addition to GCD hell every 6 seconds you want to use CS, you'd get a horrible number of collisions between times where you want SoC to be up due to an incoming swing and times where CS is ready where you want SotC to be up, which will force you to lose either a significant amount of SoC procs or significantly delay your CS. Both of these are disaster scenarios and should definitely outweigh the buff to CS from weaving.

That aside, it would be mana consumption suicide to say the least, you'd be Seal changing every couple of seconds, without even making use of Judgement most of the time (and losing the 80% mana you'd get back from Sanctified Seals).




Now here's the real question: Despite what I've said earlier about SotC being a Seal that does "nothing" damage wise, could this make SotC viable as a DPS seal on it's own with more changes?

Assuming SotC does "nothing" to your DPS, with this 40% CS buff you'd be doing roughly 12% less damage than with SoC/JoC (20% - 8%).

Open questions:

-Does SotC really do nothing to our dps? How minute is the increase?

-How does a lot of haste gear play into this?


Anyway, I don't think it's going to turn out to be anything worthwhile, but it's worth investigating in light of those patch notes.

I'm sure somewhere, someone at Blizzard knows there's a horrible faction Seal imbalance and that SotC is a pretty useles Seal atm. Maybe, someone is attempting to put two and two together.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/25/08 at 2:08 AM.
#3578SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aramul
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Open questions:

-Does SotC really do nothing to our dps? How minute is the increase?

-How does a lot of haste gear play into this?
The net effect of SotC as it stands is simply the bonus 494 AP. The haste bonus and damage decrease are set up to cancel each other out, then AP is added on afterwards.

Since SotC is a straight % increase to haste, it stacks multiplicately with haste rating. No matter your haste rating, you will swing 40% more times with SotC up than without.
#3579SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
-Does SotC really do nothing to our dps? How minute is the increase?
Don't quote me on this, but I believe SOTC is a 474 AP, or a 33.85 DPS increase from plain autoattacks with no Seal.

That is, we attack 40% faster, but our weapon damage is also proportionally decreased. That alone would be a null DPS difference, except SOTC also increases our AP by 474.

If SOC+JOC is 20% of our damage, and CS getting 40% more damage from SOTC is 8%, then SOTC's contribution to would have to make up for the remaining 12%.

Dividing 33.85 DPS by 12%, I got 282.08 DPS, although I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Maybe someone with more math skills could uncover how much damage SOTC needs to deal to put it in the same ballpark as SOC (never mind SOB).
#3580SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
494AP and 40% more WF procs, which again should hit for less than normal, though have those 494 AP on them.

Probably not enough to make those 12% I guess, this is just food for thought at the moment (and/or trying to make sense of that which makes no sense), if there's intention to do further tweaking to this currently useless Seal.


Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Dividing 33.85 DPS by 12%, I got 282.08 DPS, although I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Maybe someone with more math skills could uncover how much damage SOTC needs to deal to put it in the same ballpark as SOC (never mind SOB).
Assuming 12% of 2k DPS, SotC would need to give a DPS boost of 240 DPS over pure auto-attack (through increased WF procs and the increased AP), which doesn't sound likely in its current state.


This is of course, very coarse napkin math and it's obvious this very much depends on whichever DPS you want to go off.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/25/08 at 2:36 AM.
#3581SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kalark
so this is my first post on the EJ forums, long time lurker so to say :P

anyways, I've been ret since around 2.3 and my guild has gone from just starting t5 to stepping into t6 content. currently my stats are:
The World of Warcraft Armory

2070 unbuffed ap
97 hit (armory says 89 but I put in a 8 hit gem and it just hasn't updated)
31% crit

I generally run about 900-1k dps per fight and rank among top 5 dps. I feel that I'm doing decent dps for my gear level but I am curious what things I can do to better my damage output, getting different gems etc. I'm currently running H BF every darn day for that libram but it refuses to drop.
My DPS cycle goes like this:

Fight start.
Judge SotC
SoB
CS
CS
Judge SoB
SoB
CS

etc

I use AW and trinket whenever threat permits.

if there is anything else I can do to squeeze out more dps please let me know
#3582SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
I'm 90% sure that the "40% increase in damage" is just meant to bring SotC + CS damage back in line to where it should be.


The 40% haste of SotC adds no net damage because swing damage is reduced by 40~% (1/1.4). CS damage suffers accordingly. Adding 40% damage would bring CS from "reduced damage" back to "normal damage".


(The net damage increase from SotC is solely from the +AP portion. It's a little more than SoR at the same level, but it does not scale; JotC + SoR + JoR also out-damages it easily)
#3583SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
So I'm assuming it means "CS will do a bit more damage on mobs with JotC now, basically the same amount 219 spelldamage gave to the old CS", which would be nice, but not earth shattering.
In their Known Bugs/Issues list, they had a line saying
'CS does less damage when SotC is active' (Not the exact wording)

So I should think they did mean SotC and not JotC. Here's my interpretation of this whole mess :

- SotC gives you an attack speed increase. To 'counter it'(for whatever reason) your damage done is decreased proportionally.
- SotC gives you bonus attack power so that overall having the seal active is a DPS increase.
- We didn't have instants when the SotC mechanics was implemented so they did this as 'Just reduce all physical damage done by X% to counter the speed increase'. Later CS was added, and so CS did less damage when SotC was active.
- Someone figured this out, and since Attack Speed increase didn't affect CS, they thought the Damage Decrease shouldn't affect CS as well, so labeled this as a bug. This bugfix is the 2nd line in those patch notes you quoted
'* Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.'
- While they were changing SotC for this, since nobody ever uses this seal, they wanted to buff it and made it give CS 40% higher damage.
#3584SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1burghy
Some more over-estimated math for sotc:

474 ap + unleashed rage -> 521 ap -> 37 dps

40% crit -> 52 dps
2h weapon, crusade, imp sa, vengeance -> 66 dps
50% extra white because of haste, heroisms and wf-> 99 dps

Unless I missed a lot of stuff that's a generous 100 dps before armor reduction.
#3585SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kyne
Edit: Figured it out. Theras' post explained exactly what I was missing. Also, thanks Anarkii for explaining it a bit better.

So, now that I have that figured out, there's a couple things I want to ask you raiding Alliance Retribution Paladins since you're forced to use Seal of Command exclusively,

Avitus mentioned that the possibility of weaving the two seals would pretty much be a mana dump, and my first reaction is to completely agree since having to recast Command/Blood can get pretty pricey if you had to do it an additional time between each Judgement cooldown.

My questions are these:

1) Do you actually downrank Seal of Command in a high end raid anymore?

2) Does the 40% Crusader Strike bonus on the PTR apply to Rank 1 Seal of the Crusader? I need to copy to the PTR before I can check myself.

3) If the answer to #2 is "Yes", how low would you have to downrank Seal of Command to get the same mana consumption rate by weaving Seal of Command and Rank 1 Seal of the Crusader as you would just using Rank 6 Seal of Command?

Last edited by Kyne : 04/25/08 at 3:20 AM.
#3586SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Theras
I'll make the following best case scenario assumptions:
  1. Seal of the Crusader's 40% attack speed increase is perfectly canceled out by its weapon damage decrease. So it divides your both weapon speed and normal weapon damage by 1.4.

  2. Seal of the Crusader's attack power boost is added after the above two stats are calculated, giving you a 494 / 14 * (modified weapon speed) damage increase per attack.

  3. Seal of the Crusader's weapon damage decrease does not affect Crusader Strike damage.

  4. Seal of the Crusader's attack power boost does affect Crusader Strike damage.

  5. Seal of the Crusader will increase Crusader Strike's damage by an additional 40%.
Even assuming all that, it still gets wrecked by Seal of Command at all levels of gear (100 to 150 DPS deficit; ~75 of which is the loss of Judgement). Unless there's some crazy voodoo math going on here on the PTR, our original gut reaction was correct: this change is pretty worthless.

Originally Posted by Kyne View Post
As far as the math is concerned, everything is either completely fucked or I'm missing something.
I went ahead and bolded the correct part of your statement there.

You're falling into the common pitfall of calculating haste backwards. For example, if you had 100% haste it means that your weapon speed is cut in half (i.e. at 0.8s swing time you get 100% more swings than at 1.6s swing time). The way you're attempting to calculate it, 100% haste means that your weapon speed becomes 0.00 and the server explodes. Fortunately for the servers, it doesn't work that way.

Last edited by Theras : 04/25/08 at 3:06 AM.
#3587SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
The tooltip is wrong. It's 40% haste, not 40% faster attack speed. They are different.
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed/(1+Haste/100)

So for your 1.6 mace, Hasted Speed = 1.6/(1+40/100)=1.14
#3588SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Regarding Theras' summary, that is true. Using SotC alone will be inferior in PvE. There are still 2 possibilities though.

1) This was intended as a PvP change. If your best case scenario assumptions are true, CS will be a brutal spike in PvP. A cloth target is at 60%, you'd rather use a CS with SotC up to one shot him instead of hoping SoC procs.

2) Seal Twisting is possible with macros
#3589SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
The tooltip is wrong. It's 40% haste, not 40% faster attack speed. They are different.
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed/(1+Haste/100)

So for your 1.6 mace, Hasted Speed = 1.6/(1+40/100)=1.14
You get 40% more attacks in for the same time period. Haste, faster attack speed ... They could call it attack frequency incrementation for all I care.


EDIT:
As for the remainder of this SotC discussion, remember this is supposed to be a bug fix. You guys need to calm down. Wait to see how it works on the PTR before getting into some deep analysis, if you really think Blizzard is going to buff it in that way.
#3590SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
EDIT:
As for the remainder of this SotC discussion, remember this is supposed to be a bug fix. You guys need to calm down. Wait to see how it works on the PTR before getting into some deep analysis, if you really think Blizzard is going to buff it in that way.
Don't think anyone is expecting any sort of buffs really, but every now and then you see patch notes indicating something so ridiculously useless had some major work done on (wasted on) it, that it makes you question your reasoning/understanding of what's going on (and/or sanity).

Yea, carry on I guess.
#3591SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Theras
Well, I'm up late and can't sleep at all, so let's go ahead and hash this out. For reference I'm using a Rawr character template that I've attached at the bottom of the post. Take a look if you're interested.

From a quick gander at the GCD's that would be invoked by Seal twisting for each Crusader Strike, we're going to have to build a new cycle that revolves around maximizing Crusader Strike damage and Seal of Command uptime. We'll assume that we start with Seal of the Crusader active.

0.0 - Crusader Strike
1.5 - Seal of Command
4.5 - Judgement of Command & Seal of the Crusader
6.0 - Crusader Strike
7.5 - Seal of Command
10.5 - Seal of the Crusader
12.0 - Crusader Strike
13.5 - Seal of Command
16.5 - Judgement of Command & Seal of the Crusader
18.0 - Crusader Strike
19.5 - Seal of Command
22.5 - Seal of the Crusader
24.0 - Crusader Strike

So after the first few seconds are over, you fall into a 12 second cycle of: Crusader Strike -> Seal of Command -> Seal of the Crusader -> Crusader Strike -> Seal of Command -> Judgement of Command & Seal of the Crusader -> Loop. Points in Improved Judgement would be a clear waste in this kind of cycle, since you're Judging every 12 seconds; Libram of Divine Judgement's effective AP drops to 66.67 as a result. Judgement DPS drops to 59.07.

While under the effects of Seal of Command you get the following DPS breakdown:

Seal - 323.36
White - 701.53
Windfury - 153.13
Crusader Strike - N/A (we only CS when SotC is active)

While under the effects of Seal of the Crusader you get the following DPS breakdown:

Seal - 0.00
White - 765.45
Windfury - 165.94
Crusader Strike - 613.25

It would be ludicrous to also attempt this kind of cycle synchronized with your swing timers, so I am going to assume a 50% Seal of Command uptime and a 50% Seal of the Crusader uptime. Stats will look like this:

Seal - (323.36 + 0) / 2 = 161.68
White - (701.53 + 765.45) / 2 = 733.49
Windfury - (153.13 + 165.94) / 2 = 159.54
Crusader Strike - 613.25
Judgement - 59.07

Total - 1727.03 DPS

That's a pretty marked increase over the 1666.10 DPS that you get from Seal of Command alone. Now, however, we need to take a look at the mana cost:

Crusader Strike -> Seal of Command -> Seal of the Crusader -> Crusader Strike -> Seal of Command -> Judgement of Command & Seal of the Crusader
236 -> 280 -> 210 -> 236 -> 280 -> -77 (thx Sanctified Judgement!) & 210

So we're looking at a total mana cost of 1375, or 144.58 mana per second. By comparison, a standard 18 second Command and Judgement rotation costs 61.89 mana per second. If you twist in Rank 4 Consecration, the basic cycle increases to 105.22 mana per second and increases to 1764.57 DPS. Whoops.

So, what conclusions can we draw from this?

If you have unlimited mana - and I mean truly unlimited - you could gain DPS by twisting Seal of the Crusader to be active when you Crusader Strike. However, it comes at a significantly higher mana cost and level of precision, and significantly lower gain than simply punching Rank 4 Consecration when you are free of the GCD.

I'd say that qualifies as pretty worthless in just about every raid situation I can think of right now. That and I'm pretty sure it's just a bug fix. But that was a fun mental exercise.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Theras Sunwell.zip (1.2 KB, 44 views)
#3592SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Veneda
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
From a damage perspective, you could say it's a Seal that does "nothing". You hit faster, but you hit for less, so you gain nothing really. (Nothing that would register as a tangible dps increase in any case. Going to re-examine this claim later.)
Right now, it helps quite a bit in training weapon skill (When was the last time you have used polearm? Blackhand''s Doomsaw from UBRS?). Still, I don't think designers had it in mind...

EDIT: As a sidenote, I wonder if Blizzard does something about SotC (paladin) in WotLK. I remember old theorycrafting discussions at the start of TBC, when SoB was considered by many completly useless and in general, worse then SoC (some people even considered it tanking seal for warrior geared people) - and only gear progression and new stats resulted in SoB gaining upper hand. I wonder what could be a niche for SotC (if buffed)... armor penetration builds? Some debuff proccing damage (so haste effect would help here)? Food for thought.

Last edited by Veneda : 04/25/08 at 5:02 AM.
#3593SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Eathir
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I've had fights with up to 38% glancing I kid you not. This is exactly where I draw the line between interesting/fun mechanic and an annoying one.

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do against it (not anymore). You can get hit capped, you can get expertise capped, but glancing is always going to remain (normal should be 20-25% but can vary wildly).

Bad luck with glancing blows can easily lower your DPS by a couple hundred (up to ~300) if it's just one of those days. If I get unusually low results in a fight, glancing percentage and whether there were any parries is where I usually look first.

Welcome to RNG.
Ohh my...remembred it as something that could be improved upon (pre TBC main was a rogue) but even that was memory was vague.

thanks alot for the quick response!

Last edited by Eathir : 04/25/08 at 4:51 AM.
#3594SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
ariesz
Can you use the rank 1 seal? And twist rank 1 SotC with every CS while keeping your normal seal up for white hits?

Last edited by ariesz : 04/25/08 at 5:15 AM.
#3595SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by ariesz View Post
Can you use the rank 1 seal? And twist rank 1 SotC with every CS while keeping your normal seal up for white hits?

Why? Rank 1 SotC would have virtually no attack power on it.
#3596SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Osse
I am fairly sure that 521 ap is not 37dps in reality.
#3597SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Grazdak
Different Matter - is there any solid material on the personal/raid dps gain/loss regarding melee group compositions? Reason for this is that I am having a bit of a discussion with my Raid on that topic. Currently our melee group most of the time is 2xRogue, Warrior, Feral-Druid, Enhancement Shaman. Poor little Ret-Pally (me) usually gets pushed off into the Tank Group, where ocassionally there is a second Def-Warrior keeping up Battleshout and ocassionally a BM Hunter.

I usually manage to keep my personal dps on par with the feral druid, using sharpening stones and all other crap So maybe any of you can give me some advice, is this really optimal? Would for example switching Ret-Pally/Druid be better? If I am not misstaken, Druids have much less to gain from Windfury/Shamanistic Rage than Ret.

Some things to consider:
- Feral brings 5% Crit to the melee group, while Ret only brings 2% more damage. Unfortunately our Raid Leader is one of the Rogues who needs his 5% Crit
- My gear is so/so - I have a Cataclysms Edge but still some S1-Pieces too, but it is on the same level the rest of the raid has, probably better than the Ferals Cat gear.

So, things I really would like to know, who is the optimal person to push out in a 6-Melee Situation? Ret, Feral or even Rogue? Does any of you have solid experience there, or even hard numbers? I think I remember having seen some discussion like that, but I am unable to find it

Last edited by Grazdak : 04/25/08 at 10:10 AM.
#3598SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kadrok
Originally Posted by Highborne View Post
New from Patch Notes 2.4.2

* Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
* Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.
This is surely just a fix to correct the fact that CS deals much less damage when you have SoTC up, because SoTC reduces your weapon damage. 40% more damage would make CS the same or very slightly more damage than using CS without the seal up. Any extremely small benefit gained by weaving it would surely not be worth the mana cost and the tediousness of doing so.

I wouldn't read anything more into these patch notes than that.
#3599SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kadrok
Originally Posted by Grazdak View Post
Would for example switching Ret-Pally/Druid be better? If I am not misstaken, Druids have much less to gain from Windfury/Shamanistic Rage than Ret.
Speaking purely anecdotally, it would be my assumption that having the Ret Paladin in the melee group would be better.

This might not be the case, but regardless, having a Ret Paladin in a tank group without Windfury seems like an absurd waste of a raid slot. The raid would benefit more from having pretty much any other DPS class instead.
#3600SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Obbee
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I have yet to have an ideal brutallus, but last night I did 2.1k DPS on teron with my BT portal neck on (I know, I'm amazing). I'm thinking next week I might be able to break 2k on brutallus, hopefully the rogue who is using imp Expose will do a good job like last week (I died right when we got bloodlust, damn burn!).
Teron is nothing but RNG tho, I did 2229 dps on teron a few weeks ago (Wow Web Stats)
#3601SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
I don't think this is implemented on the PTR yet. No tooltip updates and my CS is only hitting for about 150 harder (which is well within the realm of the additional AP). I'll keep you guys updated.
#3602SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Grazdak
Originally Posted by Kadrok View Post
Speaking purely anecdotally, it would be my assumption that having the Ret Paladin in the melee group would be better.

This might not be the case, but regardless, having a Ret Paladin in a tank group without Windfury seems like an absurd waste of a raid slot. The raid would benefit more from having pretty much any other DPS class instead.
Some Number Crunching I did last hour, sources are the DPS spreadsheets found here in the Forums, from Bellator for Ret, [Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet for Rogues, Voldjins from Feral Druid DPS 2 3 2.xls for Druids.

I assumed a typical Melee Group like we usually have (Warrior, Enhancement, Feral) and an MT Group with 2x Warrior and BM Hunter. Gear is Roughly T6 Level, a bit lower I think for the Druid.

For Ret you get:
Melee-Grp (has Battleshout, Shaman, no LotP): 1479 dps
MT-Grp (has Battleshout, no LotP, no Shaman, BM-Hunter): 1297 dps = 87,69% of theoretical personal Max.

Removing a Combat-Rogue from the Melee Group:
Rogue (Combat-Swords):
Melee-Grp (has Battleshout, Shaman, LotP): 1628 dps
MT-Grp (has Battleshout, no LotP, no Shaman, BM-Hunter): 1534 dps = 94,22% of theoretical personal Max.

Feral (slightly beyond T6):
Melee-Grp (same as above): 1368 dps
MT-Grp (same as above): 1242 dps = 90,07% of theoretical personal Max.

So alltogether this is pretty much what i suspected, Rogues actually loose the fewest (can now use 2xPoisons, less benefit from Strength, etc.) both in relative as well as absolute numbers.

Of course you also have to consider the group-wide auras (5% Crit for Feral, 2% mor dmg for Ret), which in my opinion would also be an argument for rather moving the Rogue out.

Can any of you confirm/counter those numbers (more the relative ones, absolute dps is not so much my point)? Any other things to consider?
#3603SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shalymar
I have a question. I am trying to figure out where I can increase my dps.

Avitus said in another post:
- A good measure for your performance is DPStime/Ability cooldown and compare that number to your actual used abilities.

So following this info and reading the WWS, here is what I have but the numbers don’t seem to add up. I have a feeling I am looking at something wrong. Could someone point me in the right direction.

Armory

Rage Winterchill – dps time 261 seconds
WWS Logs
DPS – 1155
Crusader Strike - 43 (6sec cd) – 33 (22 hit, 11 crit)
Judgement of Blood - 29 (9 sec cd) – 45 (35 hit, 10 crit)


Anetheron – dps time 241 seconds
WWS Logs
DPS – 1475
Crusader Strike - 40 (6sec cd) – 34 (23 hit, 10 crit, 1 miss)
Judgement of Blood - 26 (9 sec cd) – 44 (33 hit, 11 crit)
#3604SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Grazdak
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
So following this info and reading the WWS, here is what I have but the numbers don’t seem to add up. I have a feeling I am looking at something wrong. Could someone point me in the right direction.
One thing that might be confusing you is that Seal of Blood hits in WWS are actually doubled, because both the normal as well as the self-inflicted damage gets counted. If that was your point, if not, can you be a little more specific than "numbers dont add up"?
#3605SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shalymar
Originally Posted by Grazdak View Post
One thing that might be confusing you is that Seal of Blood hits in WWS are actually doubled, because both the normal as well as the self-inflicted damage gets counted. If that was your point, if not, can you be a little more specific than "numbers dont add up"?
Sorry I should have been more specific. Yes, I was speaking of the Judgement of Blood numbers

When I see this
Judgement of Blood - 26 (9 sec cd) – 44 (33 hit, 11 crit)

That tells me that I should have 26 judgement of blood during the fight but I see 44. So are you saying the 33 hits should be more like 16.5 or just 16 (33/2) or do you mean take the told hits 44/2 = 22?
#3606SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Tests performed by using a Large Club (3.2 AS) on the PTR on the various mobs in the starting area. Used healing gear so I wouldn't build up vengeance too fast.


Character sheet weapon damage: 140~143 (562 AP)
CS hits for: 160~161

SotC character sheet weapon damage: 185-188 (1056 AP, 2.29 AS)
CS hits for: 296



No SotC case: We see that CS hits for 160/140 = 114% weapon damage. The weapon I'm using has 5 damage per swing.

[5 + (562 AP / 14 ) * 3.3 (normalized) ] * 110% (CS modifier) * 106% (2h weapon spec) = 160 <<< What we got


SotC case: Note that 296 / 185 = 160% = 140% * 114%. Ignoring character sheet damage and using the base formula:

[5 + (1056 AP / 14) * 3.3 ] * 110% * 106% = 296 <<< What we got



So the bugfix is in - SotC no longer reduces your DPS when active. The 40% increase in damage only cancels out the pre-existing damage penalty. The AP on SotC will increase your CS swings by 128 damage (494 / 14 * 3.3 * 110%, pre % mods), and add 35 auto-attack DPS. Since it does not scale off a % of your weapon damage like SoC or SoB, it won't be a raid DPS seal.
#3607SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The 40% increase in damage only cancels out the pre-existing damage penalty.
I don't think this is a correct interpretation.

The PTR hasn't been patched since it went live, which means the new 40% damage crap isn't in yet (as can be seen in the lack of updated tooltips) as it was just added to the patch notes last night. The "SotC not lowering CS" bug was in the first set of patch notes however, so clearly it has been fixed. CS should be dealing damage factoring in normal weapon damage + the extra AP. It is doing exactly that; it was the original bug to begin with.

The 40% more damage is something entirely different (as evidenced by its inclusion as a separate bullet in the notes) and it clearly hasn't been patched in yet.
#3608SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Rasputin
A slight interjection and quite possibly not news to anybody, but something I noticed in working on Brutallus. If you're watching your GCD carefully trying to time your abilities, remember that Bloodlust/Heroism also provide spell haste, which will reduce the GCD on your Seals, Consecration, and Exorcism, but not Crusader Strike. So if you usually wait in the 1.5s window before an ability(Crusader Strike) is up, you can cut that a little bit tighter while Bloodlusted/Heroism'ed. Allows a slightly tighter cycle for those 40 seconds. Just remember that CS still counts as a physical attack, and retains its 1.5s GCD. Not that it matters much, since it's our most important attack and you'll be using it when it's up anyway. This isn't new, but I hadn't seen any posts about the specific effects of Bloodlust for Paladins since the spell haste GCD change, thought it might help some people.

Last edited by Rasputin : 04/25/08 at 12:08 PM. Reason: capitalization
#3609SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Grazdak
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
That tells me that I should have 26 judgement of blood during the fight but I see 44. So are you saying the 33 hits should be more like 16.5 or just 16 (33/2) or do you mean take the told hits 44/2 = 22?
The 44 hits you are seeing are actually: 11 normal hits, 11 critical hits, 11xFeedback from normal Hits, 11xFeedback from Crit. hits. (Feedback cannot crit). So you actually judged 22 Seal of Bloods, of which 50% were crits, which is reasonable with
5/5 Fanaticism. Of course I might be wrong

So generally speaking, your number of SoB judges would be (hit+crit)/2 taking hit and crit numbers from WWS

Last edited by Grazdak : 04/25/08 at 12:15 PM.
#3610SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I don't think this is a correct interpretation.

The PTR hasn't been patched since it went live, which means the new 40% damage crap isn't in yet (as can be seen in the lack of updated tooltips) as it was just added to the patch notes last night. The "SotC not lowering CS" bug was in the first set of patch notes however, so clearly it has been fixed. CS should be dealing damage factoring in normal weapon damage + the extra AP. It is doing exactly that; it was the original bug to begin with.

The 40% more damage is something entirely different (as evidenced by its inclusion as a separate bullet in the notes) and it clearly hasn't been patched in yet.
From the PTR notes. WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

# Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
# Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.

There's a separate point for each ability affected - SotC, CS. On live, CS does 1/1.4 of the damage it "should" do due to the SotC weapon damage reduction. Adding 40% damage precisely cancels out the damage penalty. I think that fact makes it very likely both items are describing the same change.


But I see how it could be ambiguous. We'll see. = P
#3611SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tilted
It's been awhile since I've been ret, but doesn't SoC have a chance to proc on CS hits? If so, shouldn't that obliterate any consideration of using SotC to boost CS damage? Any 2h worth equipping already has over 40% SoC proc rate to begin with. The loss of autoattack damage during the 3-second seal weaving makes it even worse.
#3612SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Originally Posted by Tilted View Post
It's been awhile since I've been ret, but doesn't SoC have a chance to proc on CS hits? If so, shouldn't that obliterate any consideration of using SotC to boost CS damage? Any 2h worth equipping already has over 40% SoC proc rate to begin with. The loss of autoattack damage during the 3-second seal weaving makes it even worse.
Seals do not proc from Crusader Strikes.
#3613SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Wrl
So I guess this SotC change is really only to make it so that if you happen to CS while you have SotC up before judging, you don't lose any damage.

Personally I didn't even notice my CS was hitting lower in that situation.
#3614SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Tilted View Post
It's been awhile since I've been ret, but doesn't SoC have a chance to proc on CS hits? If so, shouldn't that obliterate any consideration of using SotC to boost CS damage? Any 2h worth equipping already has over 40% SoC proc rate to begin with. The loss of autoattack damage during the 3-second seal weaving makes it even worse.
No damage seals proc off CS. It'd be a little silly if it did, honestly.


With a slow weapon, you have 16~17 weapon swings per minute. CS adds 10 swings per minute. SoC has 7 PPM for 16~17 weapon swings per minute. If it proc'd off CS, you'd have an effective 11~12 PPM (26/15 * 7) as well as ridiculous burst damage for PvP. (CS + white + 2x SOC = 350% non-crit weapon damage in one swing; up to 700% weapon damage on a crit chain)


It would be amusing to see though.
#3615SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tilted
Ah, that makes more sense then. Thanks for the clarification.
#3616SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
From the PTR notes. WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

# Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
# Crusader Strike (Retribution) will now properly receive a damage increase from Seal of The Crusader.

There's a separate point for each ability affected - SotC, CS. On live, CS does 1/1.4 of the damage it "should" do due to the SotC weapon damage reduction. Adding 40% damage precisely cancels out the damage penalty. I think that fact makes it very likely both items are describing the same change.


But I see how it could be ambiguous. We'll see. = P
I just find it very odd because if the 40% damage increases was simply to balance out the SotC reduction there would be no need for the second bullet. Before it was getting a damage reduction instead of an increase, which would seem to imply that the second bullet is the fix, and the first is a buff.

Regardless, there is a post on the PTR forums asking for clarification, hopefully Hortus will respond sometime soon.
#3617SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
I am pretty sure the 40% damage note is a confused note writer.


Regardless, this is meant to be a bug fix for those that forgot to judge Crusader before using CS, so don't hold your breath .
#3618SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
So as Avitus recommended, I put Rawr on my home computer and was playing with it. For my "optimal gear-set", with raid buffs, a flask, and a 10 min fight timer, the trinkets it recommends are [Shard of Contempt] and [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. The Shard I totally agree with, Expertise is extremely strong and it procs often. However, I'm scratching my head on the DMC: Crusade issue. I have one, and I used it til I got [Berserker's Call] and then switched it out. At the time, I figured the use effect stacked with AW twice and Heroism over the course of a fight would out-perform 30 extra static AP and 80 spell damage. With several of you all using DMC: Crusade still, and Rawr recommending it as better, I'm questioning this assumption. Does anyone have the math handy to show how DMC: Crusade outperforms Zerker's Call?
#3619SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Grazdak View Post
If I am not misstaken, Druids have much less to gain from Windfury/Shamanistic Rage than Ret.

They gain nothing from WF, but the same from "Unleashed Rage" (I assume that's what you meant).

2% flat damage to party and ret pala doing ~500 dps more > 5% crit party buff and druid gaining a lot less


Whether pulling out the rogue instead of the feral would be better, this really depends on their individual dps comparison + the gain/loss of 5% crit to party.


Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
At the time, I figured the use effect stacked with AW twice and Heroism over the course of a fight would out-perform 30 extra static AP and 80 spell damage.

80 spell damage all fight is "a lot" of damage. I think that's what you're underestimating here.
#3620SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
The patch notes look to me like they're now saying that ...

the 40% increase in damage is a bug fix, and in addition to doing full damage it will calculate the added AP from SotC in it's damage.

Again, basically, patch notes that basically just say "we're fixing this so that it works like you always assumed it did".

Not that anyone cares.
#3621SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
stray
Not a good time to post about something other than the SotC "fix" but here goes,

Just wanted to thank you guys for your input, had my first real raid after being introduced to EJ and Rawr.

Carried out some gear changes after taking your advise and which on the face of it looks like i have gimped my self, but it has proven to be worth while. I was in the top 4 of damage on our Maggy/TK raid tonight, and i would have been higher if it wasnt for some silly deaths!

Altho my DPS is a good 200-300 more i feel with my gear i should be getting more or am i just over rating my gear atm?

Any ways thanks again and heres the WWS report if any1 has a spare min for a browse

Stray

PS Also wanted to ask about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] is it more a single boss item, or is it effective in trash too?

Last edited by stray : 04/25/08 at 6:24 PM.
#3622SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
On an off comment: If they would somehow tweak SotC to be useful (giving those 12% difference), for example by reducing the damage reduction factor (+40% hit speed, but only -30% or 20% damage per hit for example), it would pretty much solve a whole boatload of problems.

There'd be a new superior seal that scales 100% with haste, 100% with armor penetration, would give better mana regen from JoW than SoB and would equalize both factions by having 1 superior seal.

Better yet, you wouldn't have to Judge/Reseal every 8 secs either (2 gcds of sealing up saved every 9ish seconds), more mana saved, would probably need a new type of libram though.

If tweaked right it wouldn't even be overpowered.
#3623SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
It'd be a little boring though, and you'd invalidate the existance of all the judgement talents. (iJudgement, SJ)

A DPS rotation would be... CS every 6 seconds, refresh SotC every 30 seconds. I suppose there's worse (Frostbolt. Frostbolt. Frostbolt.), but that still doesn't sound too interesting.


What I'd like to see is a reason to switch damage seals. Give them synergies that would make you want to mix/chain. Kind of like the original seal/judge system, where you could use SotC -> JotC -> SoR -> SotC -> JotC, or SoC -> JoC -> SoJ. (Not that those worked very well, but I think the concept is neat, and it'd be a little more interesting).

SoV is the sort of thing I wish we had more of - The DoT is just asking for you to weave it with other seals, getting higher DPS than using a single seal alone. (+hit/spell hit, weapon speeds, stat scaling, and some other stuff have prevented it from being worth the effort, unfortunately)
#3624SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
would probably need a new type of libram though.
Minor nitpick, but we already have the [Libram of Zeal] for SOTC
#3625SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
I meant something useful!

Last edited by Avitus : 04/25/08 at 8:12 PM.
#3626SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

80 spell damage all fight is "a lot" of damage. I think that's what you're underestimating here.
Sure, 80 spell damage is a nice amount, but my line of thought was that AP affects auto-attack, crusader strike, and socomm, which is the majority of our damage. 80 spell damage has a slight bump to socomm and boosts jocomm/consecrate, which is a much smaller portion of our damage. 360 extra AP is a lot from one source, and with it on a 2min cooldown it can get a lot of up-time. I guess I'm underestimating the damage boost 80 spell actually is, or overestimating the affect of temporary AP boosts...
#3627SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
This is the core point of everything we talk about

Just because a stat is low priority, doesn't mean that with enough of it, it won't outdo minuscule amounts of a priority stat.



Berserker's Call averages out at 150 AP passive. So it's 30 AP vs 80 spelldamage pretty much.

If you use consecration, 80 spelldamage is worth more than 30 AP. It's that simple.
#3628SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Squintacular
I had 1120 dps on Rage the other day. I do not have a WWS from it but I was wondering if someone could tell me if that is about right for what I should be putting out on a fight like that the group make up was with Enhance shammy fury warrior and Kitty Druid and rogue
#3629SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Seele
yes thats decent, with 1900ap 29% crit unbuffed I push about 1300ish dps on the first 2 hyjal bosses, we usually run Awar/Fwar/ret/Esham/rogue.
Get a helm with a meta, drop the leather get +hit rings/cloak from kara to make up the hit lose from helm get mongoose and you'll probly jump up 100dps.
#3630SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fanvast
Hey folks, off topic from the posts prior to this-

Long time reader, few time poster. I was wondering if one of you experts could take a peek at my armory and give me some gear pointers? As of now I am in the process of powerleveling Blacksmithing to pick up some Swiftsteel. I feel my gear is ok, but I still seem to lack on the damage meters in a raid, even when I am put in a good group of Shamans/Druids.

I Seal of Crusader first, Crusader Strike, Judge, Seal of Blood, then repeat, without SoC again of course. Is my rotation incorrect, or is it a gear issue?
#3631SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fanvast View Post
Hey folks, off topic from the posts prior to this-

Long time reader, few time poster. I was wondering if one of you experts could take a peek at my armory and give me some gear pointers? As of now I am in the process of powerleveling Blacksmithing to pick up some Swiftsteel. I feel my gear is ok, but I still seem to lack on the damage meters in a raid, even when I am put in a good group of Shamans/Druids.

Lose some hit, you're 14 over the cap, that's quiet a bit. Best thing you can do is change the surefooted enchant on your boots to dexterity (12 agi). This should leave you at 99 hit rating (still 4 over, but closer to nominal).


What's with all the crit gems (belt, boots)? Change those to Str gems if you want to optimize.

As a rule of thumb:

Red socket: 10 str
Yellow socket: 5 str/5 crit
Blue socket: 5 str/7 stam

If you wish to ignore socket bonuses, then 10 str everywhere is usually superior.

In case Crimsons/Pyrestones are hard to come by, just wait a few weeks till gem bad vendor is out.

Upgrade the libram to the BF heroic one as soon as possible, that should be a fairly large upgrade.

Looks like you're generally on the right track though.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/26/08 at 2:20 AM.
#3632SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fanvast
Those are the gems my raid leader gave me, as we were low on reds. Granted his fury warrior girlfriend and our MS warriors have the same gems. I will change that, though.
#3633SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Go for pyrestones if reds are low, if anything is similar in your guild you should have plenty of those. Or alternatively just wait for the badge gem vendor soon
#3634SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Xequecal
I did some math on the new SotC vs. Seal of Blood. This is actually very difficult to calculate, because different stats affect each differently, so I had to make some unrealistic assumptions. With a 3.8 speed weapon, against a zero-armor target that doesn't produce glancing blows:

The bonus to Crusader Strike is worth (60 / 6) * (0.4 * 1.1) = 4.4 extra effective white attacks per minute.
Seal of Blood is worth (60 / 3.8) * 0.35 = 5.526 extra effective white attacks per minute.

However, Seal of the Crusader adds 494 attack power to your white hits and Crusader Strike, but by using it you lose Judgement of Blood damage.

Judgement of Blood adds 38.75 DPS. (I'll assume that most ret Paladins aren't gearing for spell power)
Seal of the Crusader's 494 AP adds (494 / 14) * (3.8/6.0) * 1.1 * 1.4 = 34.415 DPS to Crusader Strike.

That's almost a wash there, so I'll assume they're the same. So, now for what's left. You're comparing 494 attack power on your white DPS only vs. 1.126 extra white hits per minute. 494 AP is 35.285 base (before crits) white DPS added, which is 2116 damage per minute. In order for Seal of Blood to surpass this, your noncrit white hits must hit for 1880.2 damage or more on average.

So it would seem from this that SotC is now better than Blood. But that's not the whole picture. I assumed 0 armor and 0 glancing blows. Increasing MOB armor benefits Seal of Blood, because Seal of Blood is not affected by armor while Crusader Strike is. However, increasing glancing blows benefits the new Seal of the Crusader, because Seal of Blood can glance while Crusader Strike can not. Every MOB in the game has a different amount of armor and glancing blow chance, so it's really not possible to do one math problem and figure out which seal wins in the end. Note that I also assumed a 3.8 speed weapon, using a faster weapon will again benefit Seal of Blood, because it reduces Crusader Strike damage.
#3635SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kris
Seems to me you forgot SotC also lowers your damage, which still puts it way below SoB.
#3636SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Xequecal
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Seems to me you forgot SotC also lowers your damage, which still puts it way below SoB.
Does SotC also lower Crusader Strike damage? It's been awhile since I was ret and even then I never used it.
#3637SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1osmigos
Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
Does SotC also lower Crusader Strike damage? It's been awhile since I was ret and even then I never used it.
Right now, yes it does. I haven't gotten on the ptr yet but it is my understanding that the change is partially just to off-set the lost damage.
#3638SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
That's what all the discussion about the latest patch notes is about. They're changing it so that CS does not suffer from sotc.
#3639SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
So givien the changes from the patch notes ... what do you think is an expected DPS boost? How much DPS are we talking about here. Of course things are relative, but lets assume you do an average of 1500... what will it be now?
#3640SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
So givien the changes from the patch notes ... what do you think is an expected DPS boost? How much DPS are we talking about here. Of course things are relative, but lets assume you do an average of 1500... what will it be now?
From using SotC?


You get + 494 AP to your auto-attack, which is +35~ DPS. You get +494 AP to your CS, which adds about 120~ damage per swing, or 20 DPS.

Total: 55 DPS, does not scale with weapon damage. (though affected by crit, hit, and other % modifiers to AP)



As of the current PTR, the only change to SotC is that it doesn't penalize your CS anymore. That's a far cry from it being buffed into a raid DPS seal.
#3641SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
My guess is that we aren't going to see much of a change until WOTLK, seeing as how we just got the last major content patch before the expansion. We saw a new seal added in 2.4 for mobs, so maybe that will be blizzard's answer in WoW 3.0?
#3642SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pazgaz
Did anyone try the following:

JotC -> SotC -> CS -> SoV -> SotC -> CS -> SoV -> JoV... or something along these lines.
This way we get some extra damag from JoV and SoV to compensate a bit for lost SoC damage.

I'll let someone else figure out the optimal rotation
#3643SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ragnor
You don't even need to try it to realise it's going to be too mana inefficient and use up too much GCD.
#3644SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Seal of Vengeance is never viable. It only possibly scales with spell damage, making it the epitome of worthless.
#3645SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1TinReaper
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Seal of Vengeance is never viable. It only possibly scales with spell damage, making it the epitome of worthless.
dont forget the spell hit too
#3646SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pazgaz
You're all right.
Under the influence of beer it seemed perfectly logical that our seal would scale with melee stats.
#3647SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Pazgaz View Post
You're all right.
Under the influence of beer it seemed perfectly logical that our seal would scale with melee stats.
This just goes to show, it's never good to drink and theorycraft.
#3648SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rakki
I have a question that doesn't seemed to have been addressed in this thread.

Can the extra swing from WF totem proc SoC?

I am very sure that it does proc SoB. If it can't proc SoC, that would widen the gap between SoB and SoC, wouldn't it?

Answers are very much appreciated.
#3649SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Artisfact
Hi guys - new here, after finally securing a raid position as a Ret pally.

Question - all the bagde loot available. I'm only running at 26% crit unbuffed, 1900 Ap, am over hit cap. but am building a haste rating set using some of the badge loot available. I know I could be gunning for the standard plate dps gear drops, but I want to see how fun and effective it would be to stack as much haste as possible.

The question I have is this - all this gear lacks crit. I was thinking that counter gemming these haste pieces with + str +crit gems to bring not only my attack power up, but to make up for the lack or crit these badge haste pieces have.

So basically, good idea or bad idea?
#3650SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Rakki View Post
I have a question that doesn't seemed to have been addressed in this thread.

Can the extra swing from WF totem proc SoC?

I am very sure that it does proc SoB. If it can't proc SoC, that would widen the gap between SoB and SoC, wouldn't it?

Answers are very much appreciated.
It has been addressed and is considered common knowleage at this point... You can get on 1 SoC proc out of white hit + wf proc.

SoC PPM is always the same no matter what... thats another reason why SoB is far superior to SoC, and why alliance pallys can't even get close to horde pallys dps-wise.
#3651SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Artisfact View Post
The question I have is this - all this gear lacks crit. I was thinking that counter gemming these haste pieces with + str +crit gems to bring not only my attack power up, but to make up for the lack or crit these badge haste pieces have.

So basically, good idea or bad idea?
1. Use Rawr.
2. ???
3. Profit!


Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
It has been addressed and is considered common knowleage at this point... You can get on 1 SoC proc out of white hit + wf proc.

SoC PPM is always the same no matter what...
While I agree that the above is true, I've had several ~5 min fights where I've had ~9ppm on SoC. Almost too consistent to be just luck, though of course it could be just that.

Curious if anyone else had the same experience, and unless it's just luck with the RNG, if there's something else behind it.
#3652SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
kottonmouth
What is the better combo

[Assassin's Alchemist Stone] + Rank 6 Consecrate + Fel mana potions

[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] + Rank 4 Consecrate + Super mana potions

[Dragonspine Trophy] + Rank 1 Consecrate + Haste potions/mana potions



The most dps I have been able to do on Brutallus was 1320 (No group buffs) but I see you did near 2k Avitus which is amazing. On my 1320 pass I was using Darkmoon card and 2 haste pots during avenging wrath and 1 mana pot in between. After reading a few pages back I see that might not be the best idea.

Last edited by kottonmouth : 04/27/08 at 10:09 AM.
#3653SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
I'm actually writing a review of trinket combos in conjunction with mana pots as we speak, just need to do a few more calculations to give a definite answer.
#3654SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
I've been RET for 3 weeks now... and thanks to firming up my cooldowns ( Thanks Avitus ) and slowly improving my gear ... Week 2 I did 1200 DPS on gorefiend ... Week 3 I did 1670 on Gorefiend ... the only difference was firming up my cooldowns. HUGE difference - practice, practice, practice

I really don't know what Haste means for RET pallies. My initial thought is that haste doesn't mean to much as Alliance pallies are Command ... on the other hand, Haste means a lot more if you are Horde and using Seal of Blood.

We are getting closer to making attempts on brutalis, maybe a few more weeks of farming Hijal / BT - but almost every mele class has dropped a profession to get leather working for the drums.

I to would like to know the value of haste for Alliance Ret pallies ( clearly horde benefit) but I have been using either Insane STR or Mana Pots or Fel Mana depending on the fight.
#3655SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
I believe that it was established earlier in the thread that Haste pots provide more DPS than Insane STR pots.

As for actual itemization value, keep in mind that for Alliance Paladins, Haste only affects autoattack DPS as opposed to armor penetration, which affects autoattack as well as Crusader Strike.

In comparison, Haste affects both autoattack and SOB DPS for a Blood Elf. It doesn't affect Crusader Strike, but autoattack+SOB tends to be a larger portion of a Ret's damage than autoattack+CS.
#3656SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Artisfact
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
1. Use Rawr.
2. ???
3. Profit!
Thanks - RAWR is freakin amazing.

Nuff said.

So messing around a bit - I think running at 300+ haste rating and having a DST proc (As soon as it drops again, I'm getting my filthy hands on it finally) will = fun.

Thanks Avitus!
#3657SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Antishekka
Hello

I got a slight problem with my raid setup, I am allways in the MT group for devo aura.

What i would like, is something to tell my MT (and guild master) about melee group and retribution pala.
But my problem is simply that the MT know everything that works "best", and as an result of that, he allways place me in the mt group. unless the enhancement shaman is away.

We currently run 3 paladins on raids.

The melee group usually consist of warr/rogue/rogue/feral druid/enhancement shaman.

Thanks in advance.
#3658SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
While I agree that the above is true, I've had several ~5 min fights where I've had ~9ppm on SoC. Almost too consistent to be just luck, though of course it could be just that.

Curious if anyone else had the same experience, and unless it's just luck with the RNG, if there's something else behind it.
Is just luck... some fights my PPM is close to 5, others close to 9... but after months rading you realise is just luck, the average is very close to 7 and nothing changes that. I always have a shamy with wf on my group too.
#3659SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Antishekka View Post
Hello

I got a slight problem with my raid setup, I am allways in the MT group for devo aura.

What i would like, is something to tell my MT (and guild master) about melee group and retribution pala.
But my problem is simply that the MT know everything that works "best", and as an result of that, he allways place me in the mt group. unless the enhancement shaman is away.

We currently run 3 paladins on raids.

The melee group usually consist of warr/rogue/rogue/feral druid/enhancement shaman.

Thanks in advance.
First, you should tell your MT that the armor bonus of devo aura shouldn't be required; my guild's tanks are at or VERY near armor cap, and they have no need for a paladin in their group.

In terms of the DPS group, my guild will kick a feral druid out if we have 2 rogues online. The feral druid gets a lot less from an enhancement shaman than a ret pally, and the ret pally's group buff (2% dmg) is just as good as the feral druid's one (5% crit). It leads to more raid DPS in the end.
#3660SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sujurek
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
While I agree that the above is true, I've had several ~5 min fights where I've had ~9ppm on SoC. Almost too consistent to be just luck, though of course it could be just that.

Curious if anyone else had the same experience, and unless it's just luck with the RNG, if there's something else behind it.
I have almost an identical experience to you. My ppm on SoC on extended fights tends to be nearly 8.5. I did see data on the WoW forums, several thousand parsed attacks, suggesting that haste does actually increase SoC ppm. If I can find that thread than I will post a link to it.
#3661SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
This week's Brut, 1989 DPS Wow Web Stats

Only 1 heroism this time (had 2 last time), normal group (ret, war, enh, rogue, rogue).

Was at 2050 up until 10% left, but messed up with a potion slightly ;S With a 2nd heroism it would easily have pushed into mid 2ks.




Originally Posted by Antishekka View Post

I got a slight problem with my raid setup, I am allways in the MT group for devo aura.

What i would like, is something to tell my MT (and guild master) about melee group and retribution pala.
But my problem is simply that the MT know everything that works "best", and as an result of that, he allways place me in the mt group. unless the enhancement shaman is away.

We currently run 3 paladins on raids.

The melee group usually consist of warr/rogue/rogue/feral druid/enhancement shaman.

Thanks in advance.

I think you'll find this exact question being asked and answered at least once every 2 pages of the 150 pages of this thread. Sorry but there's a limit to how often we'll answer this, please read the thread/use search.
#3662SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Sujurek View Post
I have almost an identical experience to you. My ppm on SoC on extended fights tends to be nearly 8.5. I did see data on the WoW forums, several thousand parsed attacks, suggesting that haste does actually increase SoC ppm. If I can find that thread than I will post a link to it.
We extensively use Drum rotations in our melee group giving it pretty much +80 melee haste all the time.

In addition I currently have 124 haste rating on gear, that totals to 204 haste rating. Add Heroism (which is very significant in short ~2 min fights of Hyjal for example), DST procs, Mongoose proc, we're talking a pretty high amount of haste here.


Been going through all my recent logs where the above conditions were true (drum rotations mainly) and they almost all have SoC ppm in the 8-9 range.

Of course, 2-6 min fights are way too short to be even remotely conclusive, but it's pretty odd that almost all of em have 8-9 ppm for SoC, so I'm wondering if there might be more to it.

It's certainly a pretty controversial issue that could use some clearing up/further testing, if anyone would be up to running some long tests while maintaining SoC up at 100%.

Maybe 4 paladins with Drums go through a stack of Drums of Battle (50 charges @ 2 mins = 1 hour 40 mins) each while keeping up a rotation, also we'd gain 4 sets of data for confirmation. (Possibly easiest to find such a team on a PTR realm with 4x leatherworking paladins?)


Oh and before anyone opens that can of worms: No, even if it turns out SoC scales with haste (gains ppm) it will still not be competitive to SoB. According to calculations through the spreadsheet, SoC will still be short by about 110 DPS in end Sunwell gear (rather than 170 DPS if Haste doesn't scale with SoC as is currently assumed). It would be a buff, but nothing earth shattering to change our current situation.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/27/08 at 7:47 PM.
#3663SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1vorda
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
First, you should tell your MT that the armor bonus of devo aura shouldn't be required; my guild's tanks are at or VERY near armor cap, and they have no need for a paladin in their group.

In terms of the DPS group, my guild will kick a feral druid out if we have 2 rogues online. The feral druid gets a lot less from an enhancement shaman than a ret pally, and the ret pally's group buff (2% dmg) is just as good as the feral druid's one (5% crit). It leads to more raid DPS in the end.
While I agree with the fact that putting a ret pala in a non optimised group is just retarded, I am wondering: does your guild only have druid tanks? Because the armor cap of ~36k is not even close to being reached by warriors.
#3664SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Deimosfobos
---
#3665SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rodimus Prime
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I have heard that a lot of people are picking up Leatherworking now that a lot of the Sunwell fights are burn fights. Has anyone done this? Im considering dropping Herbing and picking up LW.

In addition to the haste drums, the chestpeice is very good in comparison to some of the Sunwell drops.
If [Torch of the Damned] would *ever* have dropped for us, I would be leatherworking already, I've got the mats to go 0-375 in the bank currently. Unfortunately, I'm still using Lionheart Executioner, and as a result tied to keeping Blacksmithing for the time being. As soon as I get my [Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword], I'll likely drop Swordsmithing for Leatherworking, unless Blizz can show me something is on the horizon to upgrade/update the usefulness of the profession.

My other profession is Jewelcrafting, and given that it is *slightly* useful as well as a money minting profession, I'm more inclined to drop Blacksmithing.

In regards to your situation, I'd drop Herbalism for Leatherworking asap. I look at it this way; one can always level another alt to be your herb gatherer. If you can pick up a profession that will increase your personal DPS as well as your raid's DPS, do it.
#3666SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
For anyone wondering about lack of updates, I'll resume work on Rawr this week onwards. Had been busy with work and had to spend my spare time managing guild issues - Council kill on March 2, Illidan kill on April 26 so you can imagine the hell I had to go through
#3667SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
While I agree with the fact that putting a ret pala in a non optimised group is just retarded, I am wondering: does your guild only have druid tanks? Because the armor cap of ~36k is not even close to being reached by warriors.
We do use a Warrior tank, who is *very* good I might add. However, for many fights we use two feral druid tanks. If you would like to armory them (I can't guarantee their PVE gear will be on), here are the people to look up:

Slymeran - Warrior
Limarah - Druid
Deep - Druid

All of them are in <Disbanded> on Ner'zhul. I would link directly but I'm at work.

But on most of the fights where the tank REALLY gets pummel, like Brutallus, we simply use two feral druids. Feral druids take FAR less damage than a warrior would on those fights... and the other fights Slymeran tanks on, armor isn't that big of an issue. Plus, he usually uses potions to increase armor, so he gets so close than an extra 0.5% DR wouldn't be worth it.
#3668SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ayreon
While I agree with the fact that putting a ret pala in a non optimised group is just retarded
If you have 3 rogues in the raid, it's better to put the third into the DPS hroup and you in a tank group. Even without windfury I was pulling out 1200+ DPS.

But on most of the fights where the tank REALLY gets pummel, like Brutallus, we simply use two feral druids. Feral druids take FAR less damage than a warrior would on those fights...
No they don't, it's about equal and in many cases the warrior will take less damage. (talking about Brutallus).
#3669SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Ayreon View Post
If you have 3 rogues in the raid, it's better to put the third into the DPS hroup and you in a tank group. Even without windfury I was pulling out 1200+ DPS.
You just contradicted pages upon pages of math put forth by several posters on the raid-DPS benefit of a ret paladin receiving Windfury instead of a rogue (and the rogue subsequently poisoning his main-hand and most likely receiving other buffs, like a Grace of Air totem and/or a Leader of the Pack Aura). Please back-up your statement. How is the ret paladin going from 1600 to 1200 DPS and the rogue going from 1800 to 1950 DPS better for the raid?
EDIT: Please note, the numbers I cite here are pulled from no where, however, if you just scroll back through this thread I'm sure you'll find some hard math on this matter backing up my position, most likely from Theras, flyingtoastr, Avitus, or another ret paladin with a high presence in this thread.
#3670SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
This week's Brut, 1989 DPS Wow Web Stats
Was looking at your WWS, and found something interesting:

total white hits: 151
WF hits: 34

Non-WF white hits: 117 -> expected 23.4 WF procs
Soc Procs: 57 -> if SoC can proc WF -> expect 11.4 WF procs

If SoC procs WF, then expected proc rate is 34.8, very close to the number you actually got. Interesting question now - if SoC can proc WF, is that any different scaling-wise than WF proccing SoB?



Also, if WF does not proc SoC, then only 117 white hits had potential to proc SoC, so you had a proc rate of 57/117 = 0.487
Expected proc rate of a 3.8 AS weapon is 0.443


You'd need a lot more WWS parses to prove those two claims true, but I'm very sure of the premise that WF does not proc SoC (no double SoC procs observed).


Do we have any more SoC WWS reports? (sorry, I'm horrid at searching for these things)
#3671SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Ayreon View Post
If you have 3 rogues in the raid, it's better to put the third into the DPS hroup and you in a tank group. Even without windfury I was pulling out 1200+ DPS.

No they don't, it's about equal and in many cases the warrior will take less damage. (talking about Brutallus).
1) We run with 1-2 rogues. And even if we ran with 3, the DPS gain a ret paladin gets (at least, a Blood Elf) from being in a melee group is greater than the bonus a rogue gets... hence an increase in raid DPS. While a rogue may put out more total damage, the increase is lower, especially with poisons and the new weapon oil taken into account.

2) Yes, they REALLY do. Feel free to browse the WWS reports in my comment on brutallus, then tell me that statement with a straight face again. Look specifically at the max damage per hit taken (meaning the spike damage versus the overall fight damage). Our warrior was taking 16k hits, and our feral druid never took more than 12k. You'd have to look at the older ones, again because we don't use a warrior to tank it anymore. We just make our warrior respec MS to give us Blood Frenzy now.
#3672SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Its not a question of whether SoC procs WF. It can't. Yellow attacks can not proc Windfury after the nerf a few patches ago (mostly to break the Hamstring spamming WF proc thing). SoC is a yellow attack. The numbers must have just been a really lucky night with RNG.
#3673SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
My other profession is Jewelcrafting, and given that it is *slightly* useful as well as a money minting profession, I'm more inclined to drop Blacksmithing.

In regards to your situation, I'd drop Herbalism for Leatherworking asap. I look at it this way; one can always level another alt to be your herb gatherer. If you can pick up a profession that will increase your personal DPS as well as your raid's DPS, do it.
I feel your pain on the Torch issue, but I'm secretly hoping for a Felspine. Just downed twins so I might see an Apolyon before I ever touch a torch.

I already dropped herbing for LW. The haste is nice, but it would be even nicer if I was rocking SOB. I think that its an extra reason to get into the good melee group. Most the time I'm in the tank group with Resto melee totems and LotP. My Sham is now an herber.

Why do you think JC is an anchor? I think the JC neck shows up frequently in my dream gear sets, but I already have an Ele Sham who is JC so it seems redundant.
#3674SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Renaud
Small thing to point out. After playing around on the PTR, I noticed that the proc from Shard of Contempt has been changed from the name Heroism to Disdain. This should fix the WWS reports for alliance from being confused with multiple buffs with the same name.

This isn't a big change, but I hadn't seen it listed anywhere.
#3675SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Why do you think JC is an anchor? I think the JC neck shows up frequently in my dream gear sets, but I already have an Ele Sham who is JC so it seems redundant.
JC neck is BOP... only the JC who gets the pattern can use it.
#3676SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
JC neck is BOP... only the JC who gets the pattern can use it.
Correct. I'm just saying I'm not going to drop JC on the sham to pick it up on the Paladin. DPS wise it would be a good idea but I love engineering too much.
#3677SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Ah, yes. I was thinking of droping mining and getting engineering for the helm. While the helm off kiljaeden is tempting, I can't afford to loose that much hit, and the new Engineering goggles seem like an appropriate replacement, seeing as how I'd have to pass at least 8 leather helms before I saw one.
#3678SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Saltycracker
I agree Zurm.

[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Demontooth Shoulderpads]
[Duplicitous Guise]
[Carapace of Sun and Shadow]

Yar, it sucks being at the bottom of the leather food chain.

Forgot about the amazing chestpeice. I'm disappointed with the droprates on these patterns. We have been in Sunwell since day 2 of 2.4 and we have gotten one, the BS chest if Im not mistaken.

Last edited by Saltycracker : 04/28/08 at 2:54 PM.
#3679SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Odly, most of the leather gear is NOT endgame for me, since it has no haste (*gently pats alliance*). There are a few pieces though, namely the LW chest and [Duplicitous Guise] that we share as endgame.
#3680SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Its not a question of whether SoC procs WF. It can't. Yellow attacks can not proc Windfury after the nerf a few patches ago (mostly to break the Hamstring spamming WF proc thing). SoC is a yellow attack. The numbers must have just been a really lucky night with RNG.
Am I reading the WWS wrong? WF attacks are treated as white hits under WWS, correct?


If I'm not reading the WWS wrong, that's 151 total attacks with 34 WF attacks. That means 117 "normal" attacks proc'd WF.


If you're right and SoC can't proc WF, then 117 normal attacks proc'd 34 WF attacks -> effective proc rate of 29%. WF should have a 20% proc rate, so then that would mean Avitus got extremely lucky on that fight. What are the effective proc rates of other SoC using paladins? SoB paladins?



EDIT: Digging through past pages for other WWS reports, here's another one
Obbee - WWS
68 total swings, 13 WF procs, 30 SoC procs, Torch of the Damned (3.8 base AS)
13 / 55 = 23% WF proc rate
30 / 55 = 54.5% SoC proc rate if WF can't proc SoC.
30 / 68 = 44.1% SoC proc rate if WF could proc SoC.

less hits in this parse, but it implies something different. I'd just like to compare more WWS reports (preferably with "correct DPS rotations") and see if there's a definite pattern that suggests how the SoC + WF mechanics are interacting. (Forget how they're "supposed to work", I want to see if they're actually working that way)

Last edited by Fiola : 04/28/08 at 1:42 PM.
#3681SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cerakona
Patch 2.4.2 Seal of Crusader Changes

The new 2.4.2 ptr patch has this following addition for Paladins:

"Seal of Crusader now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40% while active."

Now, SoCr increases attack speed by 40% as well. A bit of actual damage is lost because of the seal, but look at the following info:

My current dps gear gives me a attack speed of 3.30 with my current weapon (Blade of Harbingers). If a co-ordinated Blood Lust in melee occurs, (during this new patch, mind you), I could blow Avenging Wrath, activate Seal of Crusader, and hold a attack speed of 1.81 for up to 40, secs (Blood Lust Duration), with the extra 30% damage to all attacks and 40% damage to Crusader Strike. That means that it would hit non-crit for around 3640-ish every 6 secs (Critting for around 7500), while my normal attacks hit for around 1400-1500 non-crit every 1.81 secs. Even after Avenging Wrath Fades, I would still be hitting with 2800 ish Crusader Strikes and with 1100-1200 normals at 1.81 attack speed until Blood Lust ended, where you would return to Seal of Blood attacks.

Anyone thinks its worth trying this method out at all? I'm poking for opinions here.
#3682SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
From the math we've done on the last few pages, I'm gonna go ahead and say no. While it may look nice, you are forgetting that white hits are always mitigated my armor, while seal procs are not, meaning you will generally get more out of seals that proc in a raiding situation.
#3683SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ertai
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
This is the core point of everything we talk about

Just because a stat is low priority, doesn't mean that with enough of it, it won't outdo minuscule amounts of a priority stat.



Berserker's Call averages out at 150 AP passive. So it's 30 AP vs 80 spelldamage pretty much.

If you use consecration, 80 spelldamage is worth more than 30 AP. It's that simple.

So here i was wondering.

Seeing as more and more of us alliance paladins are popping fel mana potions, how much better (if at all) is the DMC:Crusade still, compared to some other trinkets? The spelldamage benefit is gradually dropping with each pot that you pop. On brutallus i'm popping so much that i get 3 debuffs reducing my spelldmg by 75 almost rendering the effect from the card useless.
#3684SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Paragos
Fiola, I think there is some confusion from your posts. First you're talking about SoC proccing Windfury, then you are talking about the opposite, Windfury proccing SoC.

Simply put:
Windfury attacks can proc SoC if the normal swing didn't. The extra PPM for Seal of Command are from Windfury giving the do over rolls from a non-proc normal swing.

This should easily put it in the range of 8-9 PPM.
#3685SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
Fiola, I think there is some confusion from your posts. First you're talking about SoC proccing Windfury, then you are talking about the opposite, Windfury proccing SoC.

Simply put:
Windfury attacks can proc SoC if the normal swing didn't. The extra PPM for Seal of Command are from Windfury giving the do over rolls from a non-proc normal swing.

This should easily put it in the range of 8-9 PPM.
I'm just pointing out what the data suggests. I don't think I've proven anything conclusively, and the 2nd data parse is based off of a short fight.

The forums ate my first reply, so I'm not gonna type out everything again. Here's some more data.


Horde SoB: (as a baseline)
Ashoram - WWS - 2000 DPS
112 swings, 19 WF procs (20.4%)

Fiorina - WWS - 1799 DPS
127 swings, 22 WF procs (20.9%)

Celina - WWS - 1307 DPS
122 swings, 23 WF procs (23.2%)

Kózu - WWS - 1699 DPS
119 swings, 19 WF procs (19%)

Fiorina - WWS - 1680 DPS
115 swings, 22 WF procs (23.7%)


Alliance SoC:
Calzone - WWS - 1597 DPS
114 swings, 24 SoC procs (21%/25%), 20 WF procs (21%/16.9%)

Tekzor - WWS - 1546 DPS
115 swings, 30 SoC procs (26%/31%), 19 WF procs (19.8%/15%)

Calzone - WWS -1780 DPS
122 swings, 33 SoC procs (27%/35%), 28 WF procs (29.8%/22%)

Saltycracker - WWS - 1995 DPS
134 swings, 43 SoC procs (31.4%/42.2%), 32 WF procs (31.4%/22%)

Const - WWS - 1663 DPS
114 swings, 40 SoC procs (35%/47%), 29 WF procs (34%/23%)


Swings is calculated by adding the hit/crit on the WWS reports. AFAIK, they include WF attacks, so need to take that into account for calculating WF proc rates. For Alliance numbers, the left % assumes SoC procs off WF and WF does not proc off SoC; right % assumes SoC does not proc off WF and WF procs off SoC.

Alliance proc rates are all over the place (I just searched for Brut WWS and went down the list), but lower proc rates can be explained by SoC/WF not getting refreshed. Higher proc rates on multiple fights are harder to explain.
#3686SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rodimus Prime
Originally Posted by Cerakona View Post
The new 2.4.2 ptr patch has this following addition for Paladins:

"Seal of Crusader now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40% while active."

Now, SoCr increases attack speed by 40% as well. A bit of actual damage is lost because of the seal, but look at the following info:

My current dps gear gives me a attack speed of 3.30 with my current weapon (Blade of Harbingers). If a co-ordinated Blood Lust in melee occurs, (during this new patch, mind you), I could blow Avenging Wrath, activate Seal of Crusader, and hold a attack speed of 1.81 for up to 40, secs (Blood Lust Duration), with the extra 30% damage to all attacks and 40% damage to Crusader Strike. That means that it would hit non-crit for around 3640-ish every 6 secs (Critting for around 7500), while my normal attacks hit for around 1400-1500 non-crit every 1.81 secs. Even after Avenging Wrath Fades, I would still be hitting with 2800 ish Crusader Strikes and with 1100-1200 normals at 1.81 attack speed until Blood Lust ended, where you would return to Seal of Blood attacks.

Anyone thinks its worth trying this method out at all? I'm poking for opinions here.
I want to get back to this a bit... I saw the post from Zurm immediately following:

Originally Posted by Zurm
From the math we've done on the last few pages, I'm gonna go ahead and say no. While it may look nice, you are forgetting that white hits are always mitigated my armor, while seal procs are not, meaning you will generally get more out of seals that proc in a raiding situation.
The math on the last few pages adds up factors involving *current* game mechanics. From what I'm reading in other places, the Seal of Crusader boost to Crusader Strike does not diminish over time, however, the AP gains & overall damage do apparently.

Given the increased attack speed & Crusader Strike damage boost, at first blush, this buff strikes me as an increase to our overall PvE damage as Alliance Pallies if we were to use Seal of Crusader. The increased attack speed would stack with any haste pre-existing on our gear, as well as give us a greater chance to score Windfury Procs.

Now, I'm not a mathcrafting genius, but maybe Flyingtoaster or someone else who has done some testing on the PTR and who really understands the math could give the rest of us some input on this? It could *radically* alter the way a Ret Pally is played and geared if Seal of the Crusader is now the best DPS seal for Ret Pallies in PvE.
#3687SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
flyingtoastr
There is a very simple solution to the larger numbers of Windfury procs.

Random numbers are random.

This is just another case of wanting to see a pattern where there is none. Windfury can not proc off yellow attacks. It was patched that way a long time ago, it is a given fact. If by some odd reason it is broken you can rest assured that it will be fixed rapidly. There is a reason no one uses Hamstring in PvE anymore.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that WF increases the PPM of SoC, which should be looked into.

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Now, I'm not a mathcrafting genius, but maybe Flyingtoaster or someone else who has done some testing on the PTR and who really understands the math could give the rest of us some input on this? It could *radically* alter the way a Ret Pally is played and geared if Seal of the Crusader is now the best DPS seal for Ret Pallies in PvE.
From what I've seen after a couple minutes on the PTR the 40% damage increase, just as Fiola said a few pages ago, only balances out the decrease from the SotC weapon damage effect. In reality, the basic difference between SotC and without is just the 474 attack power.

What does that mean? Well, with a 3.5 speed weapon you're looking at a (unbuffed) 118.5 damage increase on white swings and 122.9 damage increase on CS. Between the two that is (again with a 3.5 speed weapon) roughly a 54 DPS increase.

By contrast, with JoC alone hitting for roughly 550 (with crits) is roughly 61 DPS.

In reality, this changes very little for raiding.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 04/28/08 at 10:28 PM.
#3688SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
More on the SOTC discussion:

PTR testing a few pages back showed that SOTC is no longer reducing CS damage. CS damage goes up, but only from the 494 AP bonus from SOTC. There was no trace of the "40% more damage" mentioned in the first CS/SOTC patch note.

Most people then dismissed the two patch notes as being redundant, that they mean one thing: CS gets 40% increased damage so that it no longer loses damage while SOTC is up.

However, since this testing was done on the same day that the updated patch notes themselves were put up, I thought we weren't seeing the first note take effect because a new build hadn't been dropped onto the PTR yet, a new build that would presumably carry the 40% damage increase, if it really was a separate bonus on top of CS no longer losing damage.

So I suppose my question is, has anyone tried testing more recently? If I recall correctly, the Scare Beast change was also one that was part of the updates notes and is already in the PTR, so a new build may have already been implemented.
#3689SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
There is a very simple solution to the larger numbers of Windfury procs.

Random numbers are random.

This is just another case of wanting to see a pattern where there is none. Windfury can not proc off yellow attacks. It was patched that way a long time ago, it is a given fact. If by some odd reason it is broken you can rest assured that it will be fixed rapidly. There is a reason no one uses Hamstring in PvE anymore.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that WF increases the PPM of SoC, which should be looked into.
On all the SoC parses, including WF reduces the proc chance per hit below the expected value. "WF proccing SoC" does not make better sense of the numbers.


On the other hand, if SoC is causing more WF procs, then the high end Alliance parses make more sense - SoC proc chance goes to normal AND WF proc chance becomes normal. Taking your interpretation, we have to assume that both SoC proc chance and WF proc chance are off.


One last note is that none of the SoB parses have as huge a variance. The highest WF proc % I could see for a SoB parse was 26% (lost it in the first post).
#3690SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
On the other hand, if SoC is causing more WF procs, then the high end Alliance parses make more sense - SoC proc chance goes to normal AND WF proc chance becomes normal. Taking your interpretation, we have to assume that both SoC proc chance and WF proc chance are off. .
Yes, we do assume that 5 minutes is not a large enough sample space (its not). Again, it was patched so that Windfury can not proc off yellows. It is not a "common sense" thing, it is programmed that way.

If you really want to test this out turn on a bot, grab a shaman, and head down to Blasted Lands for 12 hours. Its possible its bugged, but then it is a bug and I'm sure it will be fixed rapidly.
#3691SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
So I suppose my question is, has anyone tried testing more recently? If I recall correctly, the Scare Beast change was also one that was part of the updates notes and is already in the PTR, so a new build may have already been implemented.
Less scientific test run than last time, but on the PTR, I was swinging for 1k~1.2k without SotC. With SotC, It capped around 1.4k or so.


It's *highly* unlikely that they put in two patch notes to describe a fix and a buff. Why not just make one note to describe the change?

"SotC damage bonus has been greatly increased"
#3692SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Less scientific test run than last time, but on the PTR, I was swinging for 1k~1.2k without SotC. With SotC, It capped around 1.4k or so.
494 AP is 35.28 DPS, or another 123.5 weapon damage with a 3.50 speed weapon, or 142.64 Crusader Strike damage (also accounting for your gloves). It's a stretch, although I suppose that could account for the 200 damage difference.

It's *highly* unlikely that they put in two patch notes to describe a fix and a buff. Why not just make one note to describe the change?

"SotC damage bonus has been greatly increased"
It's just as unlikely that they'd put in two patch to describe the same fix. Giving CS a 40% damage bonus while SOTC is up to earn back the autoattack damage reduction and saying CS now properly gets the bonus damage from SOTC is pretty much the same thing.
#3693SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
494 AP is 35.28 DPS, or another 123.5 weapon damage with a 3.50 speed weapon, or 142.64 Crusader Strike damage (also accounting for your gloves). It's a stretch, although I suppose that could account for the 200 damage difference.



It's just as unlikely that they'd put in two patch to describe the same fix. Giving CS a 40% damage bonus while SOTC is up to earn back the autoattack damage reduction and saying CS now properly gets the bonus damage from SOTC is pretty much the same thing.
I noted it wasn't scientific. But factor in 1.05 glove bonus, 1.06 2h Weapon Spec, Vengeance (can't stop critting on low level mobs, and I didn't feel like clicking it off every time), and that the natural damage range of my weapon [The Blade of Harbingers] is 190.


If there was anything like +40% damage, you should be seeing 1.6+k CS hits. But we don't see that. If you want to see a low damage range test, I did that already. Check back a few pages, and you'll note that there is no "extra unexpected damage" on CS + SotC.


Last thing: SotC AND CS were changed. They probably put in a patch note for each change to an ability. That's an alternate explanation for redundant patch notes that makes just as much sense.


So to recap again what we know:
1.) Both the bugfix and the "buff" are describing the same type of change. (the buff says +40% damage. +40% damage is precisely what you'd need to do to fix the bug)
2.) SotC is already changed on the PTR, and it's only bugfixed, not hugely buffed.
3.) Assuming that they really mean to buff SotC to deal 40% EXTRA damage with CS, it needs much more than that to be a "viable" raid DPS seal. (needs a damage judgement, much more scaling with gear, etc)
#3694SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
Simply put:
Windfury attacks can proc SoC if the normal swing didn't. The extra PPM for Seal of Command are from Windfury giving the do over rolls from a non-proc normal swing.

This should easily put it in the range of 8-9 PPM.
Emphasis is mine, this is exactly what I've been wondering about. Though empirical evidence would suggest this to be correct, I'm wondering whether such a mechanic exists in wow:

"If white doesn't proc SoC, then the WF after it is allowed to proc it, otherwise no."??




Originally Posted by Ertai View Post
Seeing as more and more of us alliance paladins are popping fel mana potions, how much better (if at all) is the DMC:Crusade still, compared to some other trinkets? The spelldamage benefit is gradually dropping with each pot that you pop. On brutallus i'm popping so much that i get 3 debuffs reducing my spelldmg by 75 almost rendering the effect from the card useless.
DMC:C is not worth using if you're spamming Fel Mana Potions, the question though is where does which potion/trinket cooldown overtake the other.

As mentioned before I'm writing a small review about just that soon, though have been busy recently with my week vacation being over (No more trigger happy posting ;/)
#3695SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
If you really want to test this out turn on a bot, grab a shaman, and head down to Blasted Lands for 12 hours. Its possible its bugged, but then it is a bug and I'm sure it will be fixed rapidly.
Wouldn't a bot get you banned? Even if you're not gaining anything, you're still using a bot.

(Or would the PTR be a gray area?).


There's so many things I'd love to number crunch and could easily (just run a 2nd PC on the PTR for 24 hours with a bot), but haven't done so in fear of going against the TOS.
#3696SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Wouldn't a bot get you banned? Even if you're not gaining anything, you're still using a bot.

(Or would the PTR be a gray area?).


There's so many things I'd love to number crunch and could easily (just run a 2nd PC on the PTR for 24 hours with a bot), but haven't done so in fear of going against the TOS.
My one post on this subject, since it's a rather large derail:

Personally, I use Autohotkey to automate a lot of tasks around the computer and the office.

I imagine it would be rather simple to rig up more complicated scripts if your testing requires an involved set of actions, but the only thing I used it for in WoW is to hit my Seal of the Crusader button every 25 seconds when I was leveling up weapon skills.

I imagine testing SoC/WF interactions in this case would indeed involve hitting the SoC button every 25-30 seconds for the Paladin and the Windfury Totem button every 2 minutes for the Shaman.

I make no promises about the legality of my methods, though. My only testimony is that I'm still playing up to now after leaving my Paladin autoattacking for a roughly 5 hours with the button pressing script running.
#3697SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1antilog
Expertise

I had a question on expertise and dps:

I currently have none because I am using an axe and do not have a Shard of Contempt, so would it be better to replace my Pendant of the Perilous / Shattered Sun neckpiece with the Brooch of Deftness from badges, or is the ap/crit from the previous neckpieces better no matter what?
#3698SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dram
My initial thought would be the extra expertise from the necklace would not outweigh the SSO exalted Necklace. However I would suggest using rawr or the spreadsheet to find out for sure.
#3699SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sapp
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Emphasis is mine, this is exactly what I've been wondering about. Though empirical evidence would suggest this to be correct, I'm wondering whether such a mechanic exists in wow:

"If white doesn't proc SoC, then the WF after it is allowed to proc it, otherwise no."??
Actually, it's more specific than that; it's an artifact of the old-style "Reckoning". Basically, Seal of Command can only occur once per combat round, but every single white attack made during that duration is allowed to roll for a Command attack until one actually succeeds.

Old style reckoning could proc a command swing from any of the five attacks, but it would only fire once from the sequence. But with a full four swings stored, 5 attacks at once had a VERY high chance of proccing Command, so it was an almost-reliable six attacks, instantly.
#3700SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1burghy
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Emphasis is mine, this is exactly what I've been wondering about. Though empirical evidence would suggest this to be correct, I'm wondering whether such a mechanic exists in wow:

"If white doesn't proc SoC, then the WF after it is allowed to proc it, otherwise no."??
Wouldn't a small (1s) internal cooldown do just that?
#3701SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ariasis
The new 2.4.2 ptr patch has this following addition for Paladins:

"Seal of Crusader now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40% while active."


-

If I remember correctly, CS does 110% weapon damage. Now with activating SotC you attack 40% faster, but weapon damage is also reduced by around 40%. This meant that your CS did much less damage then intended while SotC was active. This is fixed by Blizzard.

The fact remains that SotC is still not the seal of choice as a damage seal and only usefull as a Judgement.

I am just prot paladin, so correct me if I am wrong...
#3702SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by antilog View Post
I had a question on expertise and dps:

I currently have none because I am using an axe and do not have a Shard of Contempt, so would it be better to replace my Pendant of the Perilous / Shattered Sun neckpiece with the Brooch of Deftness from badges, or is the ap/crit from the previous neckpieces better no matter what?
Use Rawr?


Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
Actually, it's more specific than that; it's an artifact of the old-style "Reckoning". Basically, Seal of Command can only occur once per combat round, but every single white attack made during that duration is allowed to roll for a Command attack until one actually succeeds.
Is this confirmed?

If so, does Rawr Ret take this into account? This pretty much turns everything we assume with SoC ppm on its head.
#3703SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1urukai
I am wondering about Blackened Naaru Sliver - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Is there a trinket which has the same effect or a similar?I ask because i want to know if a SoB procc or a JoB would grant attackpower too in battletrance.


If it is so it shouldn't take very long to get the 10 stacks.
#3704SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Originally Posted by urukai View Post
I am wondering about Blackened Naaru Sliver - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Is there a trinket which has the same effect or a similar?I ask because i want to know if a SoB procc or a JoB would grant attackpower too in battletrance.


If it is so it shouldn't take very long to get the 10 stacks.
Until someone actually has this trinket, anything we say is simply speculation at this point.

The closest thing we have to compare is the [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. Correct me if I'm wrong, but autoattacks, Crusader Strike, SoC procs and SoB procs all trigger the stacking AP bonus of the Crusade, so it would be a fair assumption that this trinket would follow the same behavior.
#3705SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
@Avitus
Rawr doesn't take that into account. If I understand this correctly, the actual damage from SoC if this theory was true would be *less* than predicted?
Currently Rawr(and the spreadsheet) assume that WF can proc Command. If you're saying that when a white attack procs Command and windfury, the subsequent extra attack from WF has no chance of proccing Command, then the total number of SoC procs will be less than if SoC could proc off all WF procs.

Am I understanding this correctly?
#3706SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Tpyo
Originally Posted by burghy View Post
Wouldn't a small (1s) internal cooldown do just that?
This was my understanding as well. I even recall the animation being slightly delayed sometimes as a result of the WF attack proccing SoC. I'll be testing it in the near future, as I'm sure some of you already have. Let us know your results.

Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
@Avitus
be *less* than predicted?
Currently Rawr(and the spreadsheet) assume that WF can proc Command. If you're saying that when a white attack procs Command and windfury, the subsequent extra attack from WF has no chance of proccing Command, then the total number of SoC procs will be less than if SoC could proc off all WF procs.

Am I understanding this correctly?
Yes. It would be another explanation to SoB's dominance if this is proven to be correct.

Last edited by Tpyo : 04/29/08 at 5:44 AM.
#3707SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Mithar
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post

My only issue with ArP has always been a theoretical one, rather than pratical:

Basically, if ArP is that good while it only affects ~70% of our attacks, how much better is it for warriors who pretty much share our loot table?

As said this is purely theoretical, but I feel it's a pretty silly mechanic. For example SoC only does 70% weapon damage since it's balanced around being an attack that completely ignores armor.

However with the latest itemisation you can almost fully mitigate boss armor with all your attacks as a warrior, hmm.
Bolded for my emphasis

If you can stack enough ArP to almost fully mitigate boss armor, would there be a point where SotC haste + haste from other sources + WF + boss having no effective armor = a greater damage output than SoB/SoC?

Other posters have claimed that SotC will always result in less damage (even with the new changes) because white attacks are mitigated by armor. If you have an amorless boss, could SotC become viable?
#3708SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Zurm
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but autoattacks, Crusader Strike, SoC procs and SoB procs all trigger the stacking AP bonus of the Crusade,
You are wrong. SoB Procs do NOT trigger the darkmoon card. SoB also does not trigger JoW, or pretty much any other proc effect. Except maybe vindication (not sure, haven't tested so I'm not gonna assume either way).

And Mithar, while it is POSSIBLE that in some crazy scenario with silly amounts of ArP SotC might be better, think of the stats you would sacrifice to get there, and then re-evaluate what your dps might be at that point. ArP only became good (even though it was only introduced at that point) once people started breaking the ~3k AP mark raid buffed.

As a final side note, we killed Eredar Twins last night (finally!), and I frapsed the fight. If any of you are bored and want to watch the video of that kill, I should be posting it sometime this evening (or for you EU people, next morning).

Last edited by Zurm : 04/29/08 at 8:38 AM.
#3709SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
@Avitus
Rawr doesn't take that into account. If I understand this correctly, the actual damage from SoC if this theory was true would be *less* than predicted?
Currently Rawr(and the spreadsheet) assume that WF can proc Command. If you're saying that when a white attack procs Command and windfury, the subsequent extra attack from WF has no chance of proccing Command, then the total number of SoC procs will be less than if SoC could proc off all WF procs.

Am I understanding this correctly?
You're understanding it correctly, I'm pretty sure I've never seen White + SoC + WF + SoC. Can anyone confirm or deny this? A counter example would definitely disprove it if someone has one.

I'm not sure how you would model this however.



Originally Posted by Mithar View Post
Bolded for my emphasis

If you can stack enough ArP to almost fully mitigate boss armor, would there be a point where SotC haste + haste from other sources + WF + boss having no effective armor = a greater damage output than SoB/SoC?

Other posters have claimed that SotC will always result in less damage (even with the new changes) because white attacks are mitigated by armor. If you have an amorless boss, could SotC become viable?
Blast from the past, digging up a post from page 103? (A minor correction that this would be possible for 6600 armor bosses if you have the highest level arm pen in every slot, but not for more).

Anyway I think if you stack this much Arm Pen you will gimp your other stats. SotC definitely scales best with Arm Pen and Haste (better than SoC for this one), but I don't think it's going to be worth using still.

The reason is SotC effectively gives no real damage increase, even the extra WF procs will hit for less as people have pointed out in the last few pages.
#3710SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Shameless plug: I've written a small mod to help with drum rotations.

For all of those posting about acquiring leather working recently and using drum rotations, you can check it out here: SimpleDrumAnnounce

Not sure if I should post this in the UI thread too since it's just a "mini mod" so to say

Last edited by Avitus : 04/29/08 at 9:17 AM.
#3711SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nex_moongladeEU
Not exactly on the topic of retribution paladin DPS theorycraft, but since it might be of interest. I noticed on yesterdays brutallus that my threat was through the roof. From one day to the next i was completely screwed and just kept pulling aggro over and over again.

The end of the raid, with brutallus down, despite two threat steals on my behalf gave pretty good proof of the threat generation being completely off.

Fight: Brutallus
Scenario: I pull threat and die after ~45 seconds, get combat resed and resume fighting one minute into the fight. Recieve an almost instant blessing of salvation. Maintain a meager 1600 DPS for the rest of the fight and STILL manage to pull aggro off the tanks before the enrage. So with tanks having a 1 minute head start, and me dealing 1600 DPS (with salvation and maxed out fanaticism) i manage to steal aggro off the tanks. It is not a tank issue as they've been keeping threat just fine with me dealing over 2k DPS on several tries other days, just yesterday i was royally screwed as soon as i even tried to DPS.


Has anyone else gotten any clear evidence of their threat reduction failing? All i had before yesterday was anecdotal evidence and a strong gut feeling that sometimes my threat just wasn't working as it should.


More details here: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> [Bug] Fanatisism
#3712SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Flip
Did you fat finger your taunt button?

Not that I've ever done that...
#3713SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lansky
Nex, you were not by chance using Righteous Fury or perhaps a mod that would auto buff it when it was not active? When I initially went from mainly prot to mainly ret this auto buffing mod caused some funny situations. You must be buffing your threat somehow though as otherwise a raid doing 1.6k dps and still pulling off tanks would obviously not be able to kill Brutallus.

Have not had any personal evidence of Fanaticism failing. Only seriously been Retribution since the start of Sunwell however.
#3714SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Flip View Post
Did you fat finger your taunt button?

Not that I've ever done that...
What the hell... it's bound to a grid/clique binding only... that should just not be possible. Thanks anyway, time to take a look at what addons i updated before that raid. Problem solved now, nothing to see. Move along.
#3715SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1crásh
Oo the waiting

So i did finally get the chance of being Rerti in my old guild <3

Although i have some kind of experienced as retri, but i have some flaws. My gear is somewhat ok, i would say good enough to start out in BT. Now since most of my gear is from s3 and such i will ofc be lacking some stats and whatnots.

I will start with a link to my retri - The World of Warcraft Armory

Since i havent played for a month im lacking different stuff like the new alch stone wich il prob have in a coupple of days.

Anyhow im not sure where i should be focusing my gearing up. (would appreciate some help)

As for trinkets im realy holding my bet on the new alch stone i rly find it amazing as retri. as for the other im not sure if i should get the darkmoon card Crusade or is there any other combos that are better ?

Also is there rly any upgrade in getting mongoose instead of sava ?

Also now i have been reading about 80 pages here and im still going. I stil have some problems keeping up a min. of 1k dps+. im thinking that maybe im using the rotation of spells abit wrong. Might also just be the gear im lacking but yeah im not sure.

I always start up with JoCr - SoB - Crusader - JoB - Sob - Crusader - JoB - SoB - Crusador etc etc.

Even though im chopping mana pots and with alch trinket i still find myself going oom later on if i use cons.

Although my gear is not perfet yet, then i would still like to be abit higher on the dmg.

So if some experts could give me some hints on the gear and dps cycle u would make one more retri come to live

Gear available would be BT/MH maybe some tk and ssc. working on Sunwell as i speak but we still need some gearing up, so that would be somewhat in the future.

Anyways great site. i will be arround here alot so hello to all of u guys

Cheers Crash
#3716SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Rather than manually reply, I will ask you to look for main post of this thread on page 1 for rotation questions. For ALL gear questions, please refer to:


Rawr

It allows you to pull your character off the armory, and from there you can see upgrades, see which enchant is best, and all of that is shown on graphs so you can see how much of an upgrade it is exactly. There is also an option to do a stat comparison, which shows a graph that compares each stat point for point.
#3717SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Nex_moongladeEU View Post
Originally Posted by Flip View Post
Did you fat finger your taunt button?

Not that I've ever done that...
What the hell... it's bound to a grid/clique binding only... that should just not be possible. Thanks anyway, time to take a look at what addons i updated before that raid. Problem solved now, nothing to see. Move along.
Weird how that WWS lists Brut swinging at you 328 ms before RD went off, probably lag, but Anyway shit happens
#3718SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
That's why I don't have my taunt key bound... lessons from BT learned harshly

I rarely use it, so clicking is fine.
#3719SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nex_moongladeEU
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Weird how that WWS lists Brut swinging at you 328 ms before RD went off, probably lag, but Anyway shit happens
Yeah, apparently. But i still have no idea how it could have happened. Got clique bound to grid only, grid is in my upper left side corner, i pretty much never release the right key other than to drink elixirs. To get the mouse pointer to G1, the tank group, i need to pass the entire grid frame, slowly edging my mounse pointer (while holding the right key down mind) from the centre of the screen to the very top left, and while hoovering anywhere over grid my seal would be a FoL and judgement would having me start tossing a HL. As well as any CS hit would have tossed righteous defence on a random raid member rather than the 7 pinpoint ones on the actual tank.

I still can't see how it happened. But that's it. Checked clique setting now when i got back to the game-puter. Settings looks okay. I know what happened, i just can't grasp "how" it happened.
#3720SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Since 2.4, RD works by casting it on your hostile target, and the server infers that you want to cast it on your target's friendly target. ie, WWS shows you cast it on the tank, but you probably had the boss targeted and cast it.
#3721SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Has anyone done any thorough testing post-2.4 on whether or not Vindication still procs JoW and darkmoon buffs even when the mob is immune? I haven't been able to tell from WWS parses, so before I went along to test it I was going to ask to make sure no one else did.
#3722SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
There is a very simple solution to the larger numbers of Windfury procs.

Random numbers are random.

This is just another case of wanting to see a pattern where there is none. Windfury can not proc off yellow attacks. It was patched that way a long time ago, it is a given fact. If by some odd reason it is broken you can rest assured that it will be fixed rapidly. There is a reason no one uses Hamstring in PvE anymore.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that WF increases the PPM of SoC, which should be looked into.
Alright, I dug out my statistics book and refreshed my rusty stats skills. Let's try this again.

WF procs will have a binomial distribution, as each swing has a chance p of success.
Binomial distribution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As such, we can use the following:
E[X] = np (This is expected value of X. ie: 100 swings with 20% chance to proc, expect 20 WF procs)
Var[X] = np(1-p)
StdDev[X] = sqrt(Var[X]) (For 100 swings, SD = 4)

Where n is the number of swings, p = 20%, and 1-p = 80%.

Once we know the standard deviation, we can use the three sigma rule.
68% of values should be within +- 1 SD of E[x]
95% of values should be within +- 2 SD of E[x]
99% of values should be within +- 3 SD of E[x]

68-95-99.7 rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Horde SoB: (as a baseline)
Ashoram - WWS - 2000 DPS
112 swings, 19 WF procs (20.4%)

Fiorina - WWS - 1799 DPS
127 swings, 22 WF procs (20.9%)

Celina - WWS - 1307 DPS
122 swings, 23 WF procs (23.2%)

Kózu - WWS - 1699 DPS
119 swings, 19 WF procs (19%)

Fiorina - WWS - 1680 DPS
115 swings, 22 WF procs (23.7%)
For the first WWS report:
n = 112 - 19 = 93
p = 0.2 

E[X] = 18.6
Var[X] = 0.2 * 0.8 * 93 = 14.9 
StdDev[X] = 3.9    

E[x] + SD = 22.5 procs

# of SD diff = (WF procs - E[X]) / SD = (22.5 - 22) / 3.9 = 0.1
So SoB WWS 1 is 0.1 SD from expected value.


Skipping the math for the remainder of trials:
SoB WWS 2
22 WF procs, E[X] = 21, SD = 4.1, 0.24 SD difference

SoB WWS 3
23 WF procs, E[X] = 19.8, SD = 4.0, 0.8 SD difference 

SoB WWS 4 
19 WF procs, E[X] = 20, SD = 4.0, -0.25 SD difference

SoB WWS 5 
22 WF procs, E[X] = 18.6, SD = 3.9, .88 SD difference
So far so good - all SoB WWS are within 1 SD of expected values.


Alliance SoC:
Calzone - WWS - 1597 DPS
114 swings, 24 SoC procs (21%/25%), 20 WF procs (21%/16.9%)

Tekzor - WWS - 1546 DPS
115 swings, 30 SoC procs (26%/31%), 19 WF procs (19.8%/15%)

Calzone - WWS -1780 DPS
122 swings, 33 SoC procs (27%/35%), 28 WF procs (29.8%/22%)

Saltycracker - WWS - 1995 DPS
134 swings, 43 SoC procs (31.4%/42.2%), 32 WF procs (31.4%/22%)

Const - WWS - 1663 DPS
114 swings, 40 SoC procs (35%/47%), 29 WF procs (34%/23%)
Using the same math as above:
SoC WWS 1
20 WF procs, E[X] = 18.8, SD = 3.9, 0.3 SD difference

SoC WWS 2
19 WF procs, E[X] = 19.2, SD = 3.9,  -.05 SD difference

SoC WWS 3
28 WF procs, E[X] = 18.8, SD = 3.9, 2.37 SD difference 

SoC WWS 4 
32 WF procs, E[X] = 20.4, SD = 4.0, 2.87 SD difference

SoC WWS 5 
29 WF procs, E[X] = 17, SD = 3.7, 3.25 SD difference

SoC WWS 6 - (the set of data from my first post; 151 swings, 57 SoC procs, 34 WF procs)
34 WF procs, E[X] = 23.4, SD = 4.3, 2.45 SD difference

I didn't cherry pick this set of data. I just went down the list of search results and picked out SoC parses that showed WF procs and 10 mill raid damage done (full fight parse). I didn't look for "high DPS SoC Ret paladins", since the WWS list was sorted by total raid DPS. You want me to believe that 4/6 SoC paladins just "randomly" got lucky over a combined 400 independent swings?


So what happens if we include SoC procs? (ie: Assume SoC can proc WF)

SoC WWS 1
20 WF procs, E[X] = 23.6, SD = 4.3, -0.8 SD difference

SoC WWS 2
19 WF procs, E[X] = 25.2, SD = 4.9, -1.48 SD difference

SoC WWS 3
28 WF procs, E[X] = 25.4, SD = 4.5, 0.58 SD difference 

SoC WWS 4 
32 WF procs, E[X] = 29, SD = 4.8, 0.62 SD difference

SoC WWS 5 
29 WF procs, E[X] = 25, SD = 4.5, 0.89 SD difference

SoC WWS 6 - (the set of data from my first post; 151 swings, 57 SoC procs, 34 WF procs)
34 WF procs, E[X] = 34.8, SD = 5.3, -.15 SD difference
Only one set of data shows substantial deviation with this type of calculation, and under-proccing can at least be explained by non 100% WF totem uptime. There's no such explanation for a proc rate 2~3 SDs above expected. Saying "it's random" is just handwaving.


So far, your only counter-argument is that we "know that SoC can't proc WF". How do we know that? Where are the patch notes specifically changing SoC? SoC is not a controlled spammable ability like hamstring, and we know that seals often play by their own rules. For instance, SoR procs flametongue weapon. SoR used to proc weapon procs, and anecdotally, I'm sure it could proc WF back before they specifically changed SoB/SoR to not trigger weapon procs.



This isn't just one WWS. Surfing through Alliance reports, I can find more that show a 2~3 SD difference (# WF procs > 25). More importantly, we're only seeing this deviation on Alliance side. What's so special about Alliance paladins that we can sometimes get 30+% WF proc rates?
#3723SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> 10/08 Windfury totem hotfix

Sorry Fiola, if it is acting as odd as you insist it is bugged. SoC is not listed as an "on next melee" ability so it should not be proccing WF.
#3724SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
This isn't just one WWS. Surfing through Alliance reports, I can find more that show a 2~3 SD difference (# WF procs > 25). More importantly, we're only seeing this deviation on Alliance side. What's so special about Alliance paladins that we can sometimes get 30+% WF proc rates?
Could Blizzard have ninja patched this to shore up the parity between SoC and SoB?
#3725SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Now if only the same "bug" would apply to SoB!
#3726SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> 10/08 Windfury totem hotfix

Sorry Fiola, if it is acting as odd as you insist it is bugged. SoC is not listed as an "on next melee" ability so it should not be proccing WF.
He wasn't giving a complete list of "on next melee" abilities.


The quoted Blue post doesn't shed any light on how SoC + WF *IS* working. At best, your post indicates that they don't intend for WF + SoC to work together - in which case SoB proccing on WF is also a bug.


But enough about Blizzard intentions. What are the actual mechanics?
#3727SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
"On Next Melee" attacks convert your next white swing into a yellow swing, which no seal does. Think of Heroic Strike, the old Holy Strike, etc. If you want to see it in action make a warrior alt and try it out, they start with Heroic Strike as their baseline ability.

And you're reading it wrong. It doesn't say that SoC or SoB can't proc off windfury, it says that Windfury can't proc off SoC or SoB.
#3728SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aurius
On Rawr, is there a way to enable items available to you by dungeon? or just manual clicking of each diamond?
#3729SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noraj
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
On Rawr, is there a way to enable items available to you by dungeon? or just manual clicking of each diamond?
For right now I'm near positive (based on an older post) that the only way is to manually click each diamond. I believe that they get saved into your profile if you bother to save it though, so that reduces the strain past the initial effort.
#3730SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Correct. While just marking some items as available by certain criteria, it's actually alot more complicated than it looks, and isn't a good idea in practice. It only takes a min or two to check off the few reasonable choices there are for each slot, and you only have to do it all once (and then update it as more gear becomes available, of course).
#3731SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Sorry Fiola, if it is acting as odd as you insist it is bugged.
Well, this is WoW we're talking about. How many mechanics are bugged, have loopholes, don't work as expected? Too many to count.

Off the top of my head, the crit libram, the BT trinket judgement effect, how illumination used to work on 2 heals if you did it fast enough (with holy shock), etc. most of this gets fixed, but some endure or get labeled "working as intended" eventually.

It pretty much ends in having to test things we assume as true all the time, to see if they're really true or yet another exception.

Not taking sides on this issue, but I think it's valid not to shoot down this thing, since it is pretty odd. I think the only way to settle it would be to run some extensive testing with a lot more data than is currently available through 5 min boss fights on WWS.


In other news, next time we have any kind of math problems, Fiola is the go to guy/girl xD

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 3:05 PM.
#3732SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dorvan
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Correct. While just marking some items as available by certain criteria, it's actually alot more complicated than it looks, and isn't a good idea in practice. It only takes a min or two to check off the few reasonable choices there are for each slot, and you only have to do it all once (and then update it as more gear becomes available, of course).
It would be nice to have some simple and commonly requesting filtering options though....for example only including the highest DPS gemming of an item for comparisons....having 4 of each item listed so that I can't take in all the different pieces at a glance but have to do a lot of scrolling through duplicates is more annoying than helpful most of the time. It'd also be nice to filter on armor class....I know that in the case of Ret there's interest in both overall and plate-only sets.
#3733SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Dorvan View Post
It would be nice to have some simple and commonly requesting filtering options though....for example only including the highest DPS gemming of an item for comparisons....having 4 of each item listed so that I can't take in all the different pieces at a glance but have to do a lot of scrolling through duplicates is more annoying than helpful most of the time. It'd also be nice to filter on armor class....I know that in the case of Ret there's interest in both overall and plate-only sets.
There's going to be some improvements in this regard in b14.
#3734SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rodimus Prime
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Rather than manually reply, I will ask you to look for main post of this thread on page 1 for rotation questions. For ALL gear questions, please refer to:


Rawr

It allows you to pull your character off the armory, and from there you can see upgrades, see which enchant is best, and all of that is shown on graphs so you can see how much of an upgrade it is exactly. There is also an option to do a stat comparison, which shows a graph that compares each stat point for point.
This is a bit offtopic, and may be worthy of a banhammer, but I'm going to post it anyways;

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the original poster (or someone with the power to edit the original post) add Rawr, Bellatorix's and some of the more useful "gearcrafting" tools to the very top of the 1st post? I think it would save a lot of folks a lot of time - I think the first time I heard about rawr, it took me flipping through quite a few pages to find the actual link to it.

Anyways, carrying on and returning to the regularly scheduled programming - just to confirm what I'm reading, the mathcrafters that are around are suggesting that Seal of Casino is still the ideal alliance DPS seal unless you stack Armor Penetration to roughly 1300-1400 once you hit 3k Raid buffed AP.
#3735SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Excellent point Rodimus, and timely. I believe Avitus has a solution in the works. There have been FAR too many people posting the same questions, and I don't entirely blame them. 150 pages is a lot to sort through, especially considering how much fluff and repeats there are. Since cromfel seems semi-MIA, I think Avitus will be making a fully revised (and often updated) ret pally thread. I'll leave it to him to give you an ETA or whatever, but I've already extended my hand to help him with any horde questions he has.

Following the ideas of hunters, I may make a "help me please" thread for retadins, to keep the theorycrafting posts from getting bloated, and where those who have the patience for those kinds of questions can be mensches.

Last edited by Zurm : Yesterday at 4:24 PM.
#3736SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Blackwater
What to shoot for?

Ok, my eyes are bleeding and my head is swimming right now, feels like I am back in college again. The spreadsheets and rawr are nice, but after working with them for more than an hour, I am kinda befuddled.

#1
I was trying to figure out some rough approximations at certain gear levels.

T4 AP = xxxx Crit = xx% DPS = xxx
T5 AP = xxxx Crit = xx% DPS = xxx
T6 AP = xxxx Crit = xx% DPS = xxx

#2
Since I am at work, kinda hard to get to the armory to doublecheck my gear but I think I have most if not all of it. And yes, I respeced to holy last night because we were short a healer and we finally got Vash !

Anyways from memory I entered in the items and such to RAWR and the Spreadsheet.

RAWR
AP = 3083 Crit = 32.44% DPS = 784.41

From the Paladin DPS Spreadsheet v34_2.4

AP = 3759 Crit = 42.1% DPS = 1300

(And yes I made sure to turn on or off the talents, buffs etc on the spreadsheet and in RAWR)

Why is there such a diffrence ? I like to think I an not THAT much of a noobsauce. And yes I will log off tonight as a ret.
#3737SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
The question is whether we want to make a new thread or just condense this kind of stuff into the wiki. I remember Theras (I think) saying he was writing something up for it.

Oh and Bellator's spreadsheet is in the first post already.
#3738SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Excellent point Rodimus, and timely. I believe Avitus has a solution in the works. There have been FAR too many people posting the same questions, and I don't entirely blame them. 150 pages is a lot to sort through, especially considering how much fluff and repeats there are. Since cromfel seems semi-MIA, I think Avitus will be making a fully revised (and often updated) ret pally thread. I'll leave it to him to give you an ETA or whatever, but I've already extended my hand to help him with any horde questions he has.

Following the ideas of hunters, I may make a "help me please" thread for retadins, to keep the theorycrafting posts from getting bloated, and where those who have the patience for those kinds of questions can be mensches.
It's definitely time to re-work the thread and split the Q&A and the theorycraft. This thread has become way too bloated. How's the "solution in the works" coming, Avitus?
#3739SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The question is whether we want to make a new thread or just condense this kind of stuff into the wiki. I remember Theras (I think) saying he was writing something up for it.
The wiki is a great idea and yes as far as I know Theras is working on it. However I feel too many of the "people that ask questions that have been answered a million times" will be less likely to look for the wiki than the front post.

The wiki should become an excellent reference source, where as the OP of the ret thread should be a roadsign that is more frequently maintained with recent findings of the ret thread, also linking to the wiki for further information that has stood the test of time.


Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
It's definitely time to re-work the thread and split the Q&A and the theorycraft. This thread has become way too bloated. How's the "solution in the works" coming, Avitus?
I've pretty much been wanting to do this for a long time (especially every time I see someone ask about their gear or a question that's been answered for the nth time), the only thing holding me back is that I don't want to "rock the boat" if people don't feel like migrating to a new thread.

If this is fine however and people are supporting it, I could probably have it up as early as this weekend. Certainly reaching a 150 page milestone (longest currently running class thread on EJ in post numbers) is good enough reason for a consolidation and refresh.

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 5:11 PM.
#3740SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I've pretty much been wanting to do this for a long time (especially every time I see someone ask about their gear or a question that's been answered for the nth time), the only thing holding me back is that I don't want to "rock the boat" if people don't feel like migrating to a new thread.

If this is fine however and people are supporting it, I could probably have it up as early as this weekend. Certainly reaching a 150 page milestone (longest currently running class thread on EJ in post numbers) is good enough reason for a consolidation and refresh.
I'd venture to say that as soon as the first post of any class thread over 30 pages stops being updated with some modicum of frequency, it's time to bring in a new original poster to keep things updated. As you said, the first post is the road-sign and the map, everything needs to relate back to that, otherwise the thread just becomes a long and winding road and you end up with the current problem: people asking previously answered questions.

On a related note, is anyone working on an article for the Theorycrafting Think Tank for Paladin: Retribution?

Last edited by Cathmor : Yesterday at 5:29 PM.
#3741SourcePosted on <=2.0.0JettJaguar
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Has anyone done any thorough testing post-2.4 on whether or not Vindication still procs JoW and darkmoon buffs even when the mob is immune? I haven't been able to tell from WWS parses, so before I went along to test it I was going to ask to make sure no one else did.

There were several posts some pages back (maybe around page 120 or so) questioning whether Vindication ever proc'd JoW when the mob was immune. I think the conclusion was along the lines of "ret pallies see a really high JoW proc rate and nobody knows why." There were a bunch of WWS logs with pallies seeing 70% JoW proc rates without Vindication in their build.

Personally, I paid attention to the darkmoon buffs over several fights and Vindication procs on immune mobs did not increment the stack.
#3742SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rizso
I notice alot more JoW procs on vindication immune mobs/bosses then the none immune targets, thought not often judge none immune targets with judgements.

The extra procs could also come from refreashing judgements, everytime it refreashes it is like it cast the spell. Like warriors Spellreflect gets used when judgement is refreashed.
#3743SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
So, do you guys want me to make a Q&A thread then, in the next day or so to accompany avitus's thread?
#3744SourcePosted on <=2.0.0vorda
Sounds great I need a spot to ask my annoying mana potion with alch trinket vs haste potion with ZA trinket question!

I think the current approach is making a wiki where most of the discussion about the wiki itself (outdated parts, etc) is being done and then a topic for Q&A that links to the wiki in the first post or so?
#3745SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nedim
Need a bit of help

Hey guys Kip here from bonechewer. I been reading this thread form page one and am still confused. If someone could put it into clear text for me what the best DPS cycle is currently for ret, that would rock.

Also if i could get the top PVE raiding Ret Build aswell. Thanks so much for all your help guys !
#3746SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
So, do you guys want me to make a Q&A thread then, in the next day or so to accompany avitus's thread?
I'm not so sure really. While I think we should make a new general thread with a clear map of information on the OP to cut down on "hlep me plz I couldn't find info", I don't think we want to completely restrict such questions there (when justified) either, since more often than not they lead to spurring more theorycafting discussion anyway.

Otherwise, you'll get long gaps of inactivity when there's not that much theorycrafting to be had and the thread will die down. I think we're actually doing it right in this thread at the moment, we just need a measure to catch some of the completely clueless questions already answered.

Also, there's only so much to talk about eventually, making two threads and restricting what can be posted in each will only alienate the posters I think and/or lead to constant "you shouldn't be posting this here, post in the other thread".

I'm planning to add each new (justified) question presented through the thread to the OP in some way or another so we end up with a "check the OP" stamp for most of what's coming in eventually.

I suggest after the new thread has been made we let it run its course for a while and if then it it turns out it's still necessary to break its functionality down into two threads, then by all means.

(Apologies for the current off topic posts, but I believe we're in an exceptional state right now and discussion about how we'll proceed with the new thread should be valid for now, at least in limited form.)

Originally Posted by vorda View Post
I need a spot to ask my annoying mana potion with alch trinket vs haste potion with ZA trinket question!
Very soon

Originally Posted by Nedim View Post
Hey guys Kip here from bonechewer. I been reading this thread form page one and am still confused. If someone could put it into clear text for me what the best DPS cycle is currently for ret, that would rock.

Also if i could get the top PVE raiding Ret Build aswell. Thanks so much for all your help guys !
Rotation:

Apply JotC then Seal up (SoC/SoB).
1. Crusader Strike
2. If not going to cause any GCD issues with the above, cast Judgement, reseal instantly (use a macro).
3. If not going to cause any GCD issues with the above, cast Consecration (rank depends on your mana income).
4. If not going to cause any GCD issues with the above, cast Exorcism.

If mana is low, never let it affect 1. and 2., just downrank/delay Consecration.


Build:

Any variation of 5/8/48.

Most points are set in stone, however:

-There's 1 point of Vindication for extra JoW procs (unconfirmed whether it helps on bosses, which are immune to it).
-If there's a holy paladin with imp BoM in your raids, use those points to max out Benediction and/or invest into some general purpose talents (Anything is fair game since no other talents increase DPS at this point. A popular choice is Pursuit of Justice, where as Divine Intellect is not recommended since you shouldn't have much +int to work with).
#3747SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Saltycracker
One more abnormal JoW WWS on Brutallus.

~271 Attacks and 253 JoW procs

Saltycracker - WWS

=/

edit: That number doesn't count consecrates. I'm not specced Vindication either.

Last edited by Saltycracker : Today at 1:48 AM.
#3748SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
One more abnormal JoW WWS on Brutallus.

~271 Attacks and 253 JoW procs

Saltycracker - WWS

=/

Remember the first tick of Consecration (if not fully resisted) can also proc JoW, according to that WWS, you used Consecration 22 times (1 resist), so it's actually 253 JoW procs out of 292 attacks.

Still that's ~87% proc chance (from a supposed 50%), that's just obscene and I'd say definitely too much to be "just RNG".

And as far as I can tell, you didn't even have vindication in your spec, so that's not it

This is just very weird.

Checking my own logs from previous Brut kills:

Avitus - WWS 281 JoW procs out of 337 chances to proc: ~83% JoW procs

Avitus - WWS 260 JoW procs out of 294 chances to proc: ~89% JoW procs


Again, obscene proc rate, this can't be RNG.

Unless it's a bug with WWS, maybe we should start re-evaluating what we know about JoW. All the tooltip says is:

"Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 74 mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time."

Doesn't specifically state what percentage. Maybe things have changed since last someone ran tests (I believe the 50% proc chance is assumption that hasn't been reconfirmed from as far back as pre-TBC).

As a side remark: I didn't spend much time looking at the rest besides JoW procs and hit numbers, but what happened to your DPS btw? You're doing roughly 450+ DPS less than you did last time, bad group assignment or just horrible RNG?
#3749SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Saltycracker
Well, I am kinda leaning towards bug. During the attempt I just saw a HUGE amount of procs hit all at once, probably like 7 or so for about 30 secs. I think it happened at about 30% IIRC...

We dont have blood frenzy or expose weakness anymore, and I'm not in the heroism group anymore since we picked up another warglaives rogue; I got amazing crits on that 1995 attempt. I gave a shot trying to convince our RL to put a ret in the melee group, but he tore that idea a new one.

Last edited by Saltycracker : Today at 3:08 AM.
#3750SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Bart00
Was the JoW from another pally?
I really think that the refreshs from auto attacks are proccing JoW.
If you add the swings 2x to account for that you will get ~50% proc, a little more, maybe some other skills are refreshing your JoC and proccing JoW.

At least when I judge wisdom the proc seems to suck a lot compared to when another pally judges it, so the only thing I can think of is that auto attack refreshs have a chance to proc.

If you look at the other classes proc chance its ~50% as it's supposed to be.
#3751SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1osmigos
Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
Ok, my eyes are bleeding and my head is swimming right now, feels like I am back in college again. The spreadsheets and rawr are nice, but after working with them for more than an hour, I am kinda befuddled.

#1
I was trying to figure out some rough approximations at certain gear levels.

T4 AP = xxxx Crit = xx% DPS = xxx
T5 AP = xxxx Crit = xx% DPS = xxx
T6 AP = xxxx Crit = xx% DPS = xxx

#2
Since I am at work, kinda hard to get to the armory to doublecheck my gear but I think I have most if not all of it. And yes, I respeced to holy last night because we were short a healer and we finally got Vash !

Anyways from memory I entered in the items and such to RAWR and the Spreadsheet.

RAWR
AP = 3083 Crit = 32.44% DPS = 784.41

From the Paladin DPS Spreadsheet v34_2.4

AP = 3759 Crit = 42.1% DPS = 1300

(And yes I made sure to turn on or off the talents, buffs etc on the spreadsheet and in RAWR)

Why is there such a diffrence ? I like to think I an not THAT much of a noobsauce. And yes I will log off tonight as a ret.
In my experience there's a LOT of really weird crap going on in both Rawr and that spreadsheet. I've got my own spreadsheet to figure things out, and have kept it really simple. It just takes imputing raw stats and it outputs dps, no complicated equations to generate graphs or select gear/buffs. It's more work, but I'm a lot more comfortable with the answers. Also, building my own spreadsheet taught me a LOT about the mechanics, since I had to know every single equation involved in the process.
The short version: If you want it done right, do it yourself.
#3752SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Meuble
I don't know if I already said this before, if so I apologize, but after thinking a bit about it, the "obscene" Jow procs rate we're seeing might have nothing to do with Vindication.
Remember that bug on Libram of Avengement? Whites hits procced it, making its user happy, with a permanent 53 crit (or was it CS? I just got one, so I couldn't test it before 2.4).
Considering how Seals works with spell reflection, I think we can "blame" those extra procs on the game mechanics. When you hit a spell reflecting mob who has a judgement on, your white hits will cause you to be judged. So, each white hit would "cast" it's own Judgement spell (as long as your target is under a Judgement spell). And since spells have a chance of proccing JoW, that would explain a lot.

Of course, this is pure theory (or call it fantasy if you want) I don't have much to back that up, but if you consider those earliers wws reports at 80% JoW procs without Vindication, that's pretty much the only answer I can come with.
Juste food for the tought still, I have absolutely no clue about how I could back that up.


edit for weird typos.

edit again, cause I didn't said it earlier: That's one badass looking avatar you got Avitus. Worth every SoB in the world xP

Last edited by Meuble : 04/30/08 at 4:54 AM.
#3753SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by osmigos View Post
In my experience there's a LOT of really weird crap going on in both Rawr and that spreadsheet. I've got my own spreadsheet to figure things out, and have kept it really simple. It just takes imputing raw stats and it outputs dps, no complicated equations to generate graphs or select gear/buffs. It's more work, but I'm a lot more comfortable with the answers. Also, building my own spreadsheet taught me a LOT about the mechanics, since I had to know every single equation involved in the process.
The short version: If you want it done right, do it yourself.
Ignoring graphs (which shouldn't have anything to do with results of the calculations), isn't the selection of "gear/buffs" and debuffs what make Rawr/Bellator's Spreedsheet accurate?

Does your spreadsheet consider how all the party/raid buffs and debuffs boost your damage?

I do agree with your principle however, one shouldn't completely rely on spreadsheets, manual calculations to confirm are always useful (I make pretty extensive use of pen and paper myself, or rather notepad and keyboard).

In other news, why not post your spreadsheet here? Maybe we can figure out where the discrepancies lie for the benefit of all three spreadsheets.


Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
I don't know if I already said this before, if so I apologize, but after thinking a bit about it, the "obscene" Jow procs rate we're seeing might have nothing to do with Vindication.
Yea this is exactly my conclusion. Salty posted 87% proc rate without Vindication. I posted 83% and 89% with Vindication. Looks pretty equal to me, regardless of Vindication.

Given that info, Vindication doesn't become completely useless (it still should proc on trash), but I guess it looks very likely that it's at least useless for boss fights. I might throw that 1 point back into Benediction myself, still not sure, it's a negligible difference either way.

Ultimately this needs testing. If someone is up for running a log autoattacking mobs for a few hours with JoW on them and see what it says, it should shed some light on things.

If it averages out at 50%, then it's something else we're missing. Possibly try 2 tests, one with 2 paladins where another paladin puts up JoW.

Additionally I intend to do a try on Brut where I'm the one judging JoW and see if things are different.

Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
That's one badass looking avatar you got Avitus. Worth every SoB in the world xP
Hmm thanks Wish Blizzard would think the same.
#3754SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Ignoring graphs (which shouldn't have anything to do with results of the calculations), isn't the selection of "gear/buffs" and debuffs what make Rawr/Bellator's Spreedsheet accurate?
The paladin dps modeling is relatively simple.Since I started from scratch when developing the Rawr model, I'll be surprised if there's anything which both Bellator and I happened to miss, unless it has to do with new findings about game mechanics(the SoC-Windfury stuff in the last page).
#3755SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lyconn
So my buddy ran WWS last night for our Hyjal clear and I found some pretty decent results for myself. I'd like any input on places for improvement if possible.

Here's the link for the whole raid just be aware I stepped out after Kaz'rogal (was supposed to get back in for archimonde but raid leader forgot).

Full Report

My dps got screwed on Kaz due to the mana drain crap but I managed to get in and do some damage at some points. So I'm focusing on the rage and anetheron kills to check how I really did.

Rage Winterchill Kill
-ignore the 1 parry, the tank screwed up and turned him towards the melee

Anetheron Kill
-2 parries were probably when he turned around to cast inferno

Considering this is the first time I'm posting any WWS for my raiding I'd appreciate any and all feedback you guys could give me.
#3756SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1osmigos
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Ignoring graphs (which shouldn't have anything to do with results of the calculations), isn't the selection of "gear/buffs" and debuffs what make Rawr/Bellator's Spreedsheet accurate?

Does your spreadsheet consider how all the party/raid buffs and debuffs boost your damage?

I do agree with your principle however, one shouldn't completely rely on spreadsheets, manual calculations to confirm are always useful (I make pretty extensive use of pen and paper myself, or rather notepad and keyboard).

In other news, why not post your spreadsheet here? Maybe we can figure out where the discrepancies lie for the benefit of all three spreadsheets.
The biggest clue to me that something is off is from having really strange gear suggestions like S1 shoulders being better than S2 shoulders. There wasn't a whole lot of it, but I really have to wonder when I see it.

My spreadsheet just takes raw stats, so if you want to include buffs, you've got to calculate them into your numbers before inputing them.

It was posted multiple times much earlier in the thread, but it didn't get a lot of interest largely because it isn't as easy to use as the other options. I'll definitely make sure it's up to date and post it again though if people are interested.
#3757SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
S2 shoulders show up better than S1 in Rawr with my setup. Anyone getting weird or unexpected gear results feel free to PM me the saved character XML if you want me to look into it.
#3758SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Bart00 View Post
I really think that the refreshs from auto attacks are proccing JoW.
if that were true, wouldn't we be able to show this simply by judging wisdom and white swinging until we get a double proc?
#3759SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I know it would be obscenely complicated, but is there any way you could set an option to ignore hit and/or expertise (seperately would be preferred) when comparing items? I say this because I often have to juggle gear around to satiate hit caps.

No biggie though, just curious
#3760SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
S2 shoulders show up better than S1 in Rawr with my setup. Anyone getting weird or unexpected gear results feel free to PM me the saved character XML if you want me to look into it.
I do get weird results occasionally, but never fail it has to do with hit rating or my meta -

if it's the former, I just eyeball it - just from playing with it, sometimes it values the full amount of +hit on an item even though I only need a small bit of it. (i.e. I need 2 HR to cap, the item as 30, and it greatly over values the other 28 hit)

If there isn't hit on either item, or if that doesn't line up, then I'll go check the meta requirement and uncheck it, and it seems to fix itself.

Note the last issue never happened in the beta version.

Neither of these things are really a big deal, just use some discretion - the tool shouldn't be making the choices for you, anyway.
#3761SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Personally I trust the spreadsheet more than Rawr. I know Rawr is new and cool to look at but here are my gripes:
-It tends to screw up meta gem requirements
-Unequipping and reequipping items sometimes gives a different item ranking
-Optimizing always gives me gear with no gems
-DPS out seems to be a lot higher than what I can achieve in a raid
-No Haste Potions in consumables

Im not calling Rawr bad, because its a good tool for getting relative value of different gear sets. I dont think the spreadsheet is 100% accurate either, but Rawr still needs some tuning.
#3762SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Voinov
I think Rawr has some bugs. I tried to active the leader of the pack buff and saw no rise of my dps...
#3763SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
-It tends to screw up meta gem requirements
Pretty sure it doesn't. Just like someone a few posts back said, S1 showed up higher than S2, because that gemming of S1 satisfied their meta requirements. Can you clarify further? As far as I see, there's nothing wrong with meta requirements. There's a checkbox on the options screen to turn on and off metagem requirements. (If it's off, you'll get more 'expected' values, like S2>S1; it'll always give you the bonus of your meta)

-Unequipping and reequipping items sometimes gives a different item ranking
I don't see how this would be possible in Rawr, the whole point of the Rawr framework contradicts this. If you can reproduce this, I'd be very interested.

-Optimizing always gives me gear with no gems
You didn't mark any gems as available then. Most likely you missed enchants too, then.

-DPS out seems to be a lot higher than what I can achieve in a raid
Anarkii?

-No Haste Potions in consumables
Added for b14, but until then you can add it to your BuffCache.xml file:

<Buff>
<Name>Haste Potion</Name>
<Category>OtherConsumables</Category>
<Stats>
<HasteRating>50</HasteRating>
</Stats>
<Type>LongDurationNoDW</Type>
<ConflictingBuffs>
<string>Potion</string>
</ConflictingBuffs>
<SetThreshold>0</SetThreshold>
</Buff>

-LotP Buff not working
We've fixed that for b14.
#3764SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
The estimated DPS output shouldn't vary that much from the spreadsheet. Of course, practically your CS may be 6.5s apart on average instead of 6.0, your judgement frequency may be lower than 9s etc,
#3765SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Morindor
Rawr and JoW

As far as rawr is concerned you get as much out as you put into it. I find equipping an item in a slot I'm not looking at that will push my hit well past cap helps me get more honest ratings of other pieces. You have to remember rawr's main concern is upgrades to your currently selected gear set. It can't assume that you you will properly balance you +hit when you get that new item without hit on it, so you have to help it by making it believe you have no need for more hit. The same is true for meta gem requirements. often a particular item will rank lower then it really should because losing your meta gem is a significant loss of dps, just keep it in mind and work around it.

As a side note it would be cool if I could turn on and off hit rating and weapon expertise. I would use this to judge items as potential upgrades that would go along with other best in slot hit pieces later.

As far as JoW is concerned I might go out and do some initial tests. I'm curious to see if judging jow yourself and having your white hits update it will proc. more. If it doesn't then I think 2 trials where I have another pally judge wisdom while I hit without a seal and with a seal judged should shed some light on the topic.

Last edited by Morindor : 04/30/08 at 1:16 PM.
#3766SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by osmigos View Post
The biggest clue to me that something is off is from having really strange gear suggestions like S1 shoulders being better than S2 shoulders. There wasn't a whole lot of it, but I really have to wonder when I see it.
Doesn't show that for me. Are you sure you had everything set up correctly? Are they showing equal gems?

I've been pretty much hounding Anarkii and Bellator before him for any and every discrepancy I could find and I think they're pretty accurate now.


Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Personally I trust the spreadsheet more than Rawr. I know Rawr is new and cool to look at but here are my gripes:
I do tend to use the spreadsheet on ocassion since it does have a few more buffs/debuffs than Rawr currently has, however they should be coming soon according to Anarkii, at which point it will be a full replacement for the spreadsheet.

The main advantage of Rawr remains being able to very rapidly plug things in and have them displayed, which is somewhat cumbersome in a spreadsheet.

Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
-DPS out seems to be a lot higher than what I can achieve in a raid
Anarkii?
It lists me as ~1930 DPS on Brut. I've done ~2k, but we did have a full drums rotation which isn't implemented yet in Rawr Ret. Seems fairly accurate to me.

Last edited by Avitus : 04/30/08 at 1:23 PM.
#3767SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I've been pretty much hounding Anarkii and Bellator before him for any and every discrepancy I could find and I think they're pretty accurate now.
At least, until blizzard messes up mechanics again and we have to start from scratch...
#3768SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Agrippina
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Well, I am kinda leaning towards bug. During the attempt I just saw a HUGE amount of procs hit all at once, probably like 7 or so for about 30 secs. I think it happened at about 30% IIRC...

We dont have blood frenzy or expose weakness anymore, and I'm not in the heroism group anymore since we picked up another warglaives rogue; I got amazing crits on that 1995 attempt. I gave a shot trying to convince our RL to put a ret in the melee group, but he tore that idea a new one.
Why have a ret pally in the raid if they're not in the melee group?
#3769SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Originally Posted by Agrippina View Post
Why have a ret pally in the raid if they're not in the melee group?
Honestly we could probably use a specific section in any new thread/FAQ which might be written on why ret paladins belong in the melee group over either a third rogue, second dps warrior, or feral druid. Or BM hunter. I'm fortunate enough to have been able to persuade my own raid on my own, with some assistance from early math in this thread and other resources, but a condensed and reasonably simple explanation of why a Ret Paladin at equal gear should be in the melee group would be very helpful. All the information is in this thread, but it's spread out over many posts and many pages.
#3770SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Honestly we could probably use a specific section in any new thread/FAQ which might be written on why ret paladins belong in the melee group over either a third rogue, second dps warrior, or feral druid.
Apparently I was too slow to post

The dps benefit a ret pally gains from the melee group is far more than that of a rogue. Sure a rogue will probably do more total dps... but lets look at an example (feel free to have your raid leader look this over). I'm going to use fairly arbitrary numbers for now, but for Avitus's main post in a few days I hope to write up a detailed benefit analaysis with a lot of math (which shows the same thing, just more accurately and less chance of someone arguing). The numbers are preliminary from what I've gotten so far with the post I'm writing, so they aren't far off what the final post will have.

Outside of melee group, with average raid buffs on brutalus, you can expect something like this using haste pots and cooldowns:

Ret: 1600
Rogue: 2000

The best possible personal compensation for NOT having windfury:

Ret: Righteous weapon coating or sharp/weight stone - <30 dps
Rogue: Deadly Poison - ~70 dps

"Best" possible out of melee group DPS:

Ret: 1630
Rogue: 2070

--------------------------------------------------------
What they get from a melee group:

Strength of earth totem (improved):

Ret: 200 ap
Rogue: 100 ap

Unleashed rage:

Ret: 320 AP
Rogue: 270 AP

Note here: Ret paladins typically have significantly higher AP than rogues

Windfury:

Ret: All melee attacks affected
Rogue: Main hand only... about 40% of all melee attacks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forget the other math I used, but it also used Battle shout and LotP, and showed that a ret paladin gains about 400 personal dps from the baseline to end result after group buffs, and a rogue gets soemthing on the order of 310 or 320.

Given this knowledge, you have two options:

Rogue gets melee group, pally doesn't...

Ret: 1630
Rogue: 2320
Total: 3950

Pally gets melee group:

Ret: 2000
Rogue: 2070
Total: 4070

Net raid result: 120 dps, and thats not including faster vegeance stacks, or mana gained from the enh shaman's mana spring totem.

That being said, depending on how stubborn your raid leader is, 120 dps may not be enough to sway him

Again, I will have LOTs of hard math from rogues and other dpsers in my guild, all who read these forums fairly religiously and know their classes very well.
#3771SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Morindor
Initial JoW test

Well I did a test with JoW judged for the entire 20 min fight. Here are the results:

Wow Web Stats

Hits landed: 642 norm + 61 crit = 703
JoW ticks: 354

354/703 = 0.5036 or approximately the 50% - as expected from previous trials.

This could indicate that a pally refreshing their own JoW will only proc off their hits/spells. (refreshing JoW can not trigger JoW) In order to determine if refreshing other seals on a JoW'd target will proc JoW I'll need to try and recruit another pally later today. It would also be interesting to see if CS updating several judgments can proc JoW from each refresh. At the moment I am holy , but I have a friend with an alt pally who might lend me some of their time.

Last edited by Morindor : 04/30/08 at 2:32 PM.
#3772SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Nice post Zurm, I think some values would need a bit adjusting, but that's something that the OP will definitely need, since it's a pretty frequent argument.

Also I believe you're slightly overestimating the rogue DPS outside melee group. 2k on brut outside melee group would be very impressive (assuming no glaive combo).


In addition to that argument, a usual "outside melee group buffer" are feral druids and BM hunters. They give nice incremental increases to rogues, where as for ret it's all about windfury that either makes or breaks it. As well as the higher gain from SoE/UR as you mentioned.

Originally Posted by Morindor View Post
In order to determine if refreshing other seals on a JoW'd target will proc JoW I'll need to try and recruit another pally later today.
If you can manage this, it would be very valuable. It would be enough to conclusively rule out or confirm there being a difference in jow procs if the judgement is put up by you or cast by someone else.
#3773SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Haraphah
Originally Posted by Morindor View Post
Well I did a test with JoW judged for the entire 20 min fight. Here are the results:

Wow Web Stats

Hits landed: 642 norm + 61 crit = 703
JoW ticks: 354

354/703 = 0.5036 or approximately the 50% - as expected from previous trials.

This could indicate that a pally refreshing their own JoW will only proc off their hits/spells. (refreshing JoW can not trigger JoW) In order to determine if refreshing other seals on a JoW'd target will proc JoW I'll need to try and recruit another pally later today. It would also be interesting to see if CS updating several judgments can proc JoW from each refresh. At the moment I am holy , but I have a friend with an alt pally who might lend me some of their time.
This test backs up the experiences I have had doing tests on blasted lands Servants of Alistarj (sp) with another paladin. For each ~8 minute test we would alternate judging Wisdom and Crusader. When I was designated JoW bitch, my proc rate was very close to the expected rate: ~50%. When I was designated Crusader judger, my JoW proc rate skyrocketed. The other paladin experienced exactly the same phenomenon. Since then I've been sure that Wisdom is always judged by another paladin if at all possible. Unfortunately this was some time ago and we didn't bother to WWS the tests, so it's just personal experience that backs up some of the numbers earlier posted.

Edit: At that time, both of us had at least 1/3 Vindication in our builds, so we attributed it to that. Now I'm not so sure.
#3774SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
flyingtoastr
It is worth pointing out that until/unless Rwar is ported to Macs it will not replace the spreadsheet for a fair number of people (myself included), so if we do start a new thread it still should be important to list the spreadsheet.

As for JoW, my guess is that it is simply the old Judgement refresh bug behaving slightly differently.

Lets take a random WWS of mine with a large JoW proc chance:
Naj'entus Kill

192 attacks
164 JoW procs
85.5% proc chance

Obviously a much higher proc chance than we should assume. Ideally we should be seeing 96 procs for a perfect 50% proc rate.

Now the "old" refresh bug basically made it so that whenever you refreshed JoW with an autoswing you would have a chance to proc JoW from the white swing and a 50% chance to proc JoW from actually refreshing JoW. As Morindor shows, this isn't the case anymore and it was fixed.

However, assume for a moment that refreshing a different judgement with an autoswing could still proc JoW. That would mean each of my autoswings refreshing JotC could have possibly triggered two JoW procs. So, when calculating proc chances, we would double the number of autoswings. Our numbers come out like so with this assumption:

279 attacks
164 JoW procs
58.7% proc chance

Now we're getting back into the realm of statistical probability.

We could even take it further, and assume that CS refreshing Judgements other than JoW can also cause double procs. Our holydins were being lazy so there was no JoL in the WWS above, but this would be worth another 34 chances for a JoW proc from refreshing JotC. Now we're looking at this:

313 attacks
164 JoW procs
52.4% proc chance

This is all guesswork, and it needs to be tested. How? Get two pallys and head to Blasted Lands. Have the other pally judge Wisdom and you judge Crusader. Now just autoattack. If the above is true you should see some double procs from your autosing refreshing JotC.

If not, I'm fresh out of ideas. I'll try it when later if no one else has time to do so.

Incidentally, if this is the case it shows some very lazy coders at Blizzard. Instead of flagging all judgement refreshes as unable to proc JoW they only altered JoW itself.

EDIT: No I don't/didn't have Vindication either.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 04/30/08 at 3:05 PM.
#3775SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Avitus --

Like I said, it was a very early and preliminary post, with lots of guesses. I have a lot of work to do, and I figure when I'm done ill just post it here or PM it to you, and you can include it with thread 2.0. If there are any other variables you think are necessary for me to include, please do (and that goes to anyone, I read my PMs often and don't ignore anyone). The goal is to essentially have a mathematical proof for a ret pally's place in a melee group, as a replacement to a rogue or feral druid. I expect it to be fairly lengthy, so prepare for a wall of math.

BTW Fiola, I may need you to dust off that statistics book again, as I sold mine back to the school store after I took Statistics and Data Mining
#3776SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Agrippina View Post
Why have a ret pally in the raid if they're not in the melee group?
We run 2 enhancement shamans on Brutallus so technically 2 melee groups. I am getting WF/GoA/SoE totems and Unleashed Rage and LotP and an incomplete drum rotation, just not any other bones. I said that I wasn't in the HEROISM group, as we rotate shamans into the groups when 2min trinket CDs are up.

Typically I'm in the tank group with resto SoE/WF and half a drum roatation: Warr, Sham, Ret, Feral, Rogue. Not bad but not blowing doors off hinges either.

Ill look at your math some more Zurm, but a more thorough analysis would be helpful. I showed my RL some Ret/Rogue math that was based on T5 vaules and basically got told Nice Try.
#3777SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
It is worth pointing out that until/unless Rwar is ported to Macs it will not replace the spreadsheet for a fair number of people (myself included), so if we do start a new thread it still should be important to list the spreadsheet.
Spreadsheet will be listed of course, if anything for historical purposes/to give credit where credit is due.

Toaster, regarding Mac and .Net programs (Rawr), have you tried: Main Page - Mono
#3778SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Ah, your situation is more complicated in that case, Salty. What I can say is that my guild has made it a point to make sure I get windfury, as I easily do 3500+ dps during lust and AW. Not getting a combined Lust/AW usually lowers my fight dps by 250+ dps, and is the sole reason I haven't broken 2k dps on brutallus yet (stupid coordinating of lusts...)
#3779SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
looks like it procs

Well I'm testing JoW procs from crusader judgement refreshes as we speak and it looks like it will be confirmed that it increases the proc rate. I am seeing what looks like "double procs" on a regular basis. the test should be concluded in another 8 minutes and I'll post the WWS.
#3780SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cathmor
Originally Posted by Morindor View Post
Well I'm testing JoW procs from crusader judgement refreshes as we speak and it looks like it will be confirmed that it increases the proc rate. I am seeing what looks like "double procs" on a regular basis. the test should be concluded in another 8 minutes and I'll post the WWS.
Just to confirm, Morindor - do you have any points in Vindication currently?
#3781SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Morindor
The data

Testing complete here is the WWS:

Wow Web Stats

and the math:

hits: 589 + 42 + 1(holy shock oops!) = 632

JoW ticks: 643

643/632??? = 1.0174 or 102% - interesting I'm not sure how this happened to be honest, I only ever had a white swing, and only once holy shocked by accident.

Anyhow the data supports what I saw during the fight, although I am really confused by the numbers anyone else have an explanation other then RNG?
It looks like refreshing a judgement other then JoW will proc JoW and is most likely the reason behind the increased proc rates. Bye Bye Vindication...

Last edited by Morindor : 04/30/08 at 4:13 PM.
#3782SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Just to confirm, Morindor - do you have any points in Vindication currently?

As I said I'm holy. I have no points in retributionright now
#3783SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Ah, your situation is more complicated in that case, Salty. What I can say is that my guild has made it a point to make sure I get windfury, as I easily do 3500+ dps during lust and AW. Not getting a combined Lust/AW usually lowers my fight dps by 250+ dps, and is the sole reason I haven't broken 2k dps on brutallus yet (stupid coordinating of lusts...)
We just let our enh shammy use his heroism at ~4:10 in. This way it's timed with the 2nd potion cooldown/2nd trinket cooldown for everyone, the rogues' 2nd Blade Flurry and the warrior and I just delay our 2nd Death Wish/AW until then (you can't use AW more than 2 times at Brut, so nothing is lost by delaying).
#3784SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
That looks pretty conclusively like white hits have two 50% chances (100% chance total) to proc JoW, when it's someone else's JoW, and you're refreshing your own judgement. So if you kept doing that for hours, you could expect a 100% proc rate, average (50% giving one proc, 25% giving no proc, 25% giving double procs). You just got slightly lucky in that test, getting 102%. So the high proc rate WWS's so far been roughly 85% proc rate, not 100%, because not all attacks are white (and have double proc chance).

EDIT: In other words, flyingtoastr's hypothesis in his post on the last page appears to be correct.
#3785SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Well I look forward to dropping my points in Vindication then!

However, given that we appear to be making use of a bugged(or at least unintended) JoW mechanic AND 2 piece T6 to become reasonably mana efficient/self sufficient, it throws into harsh relief our mana problems. I hope they have a comprehensive fix for that coming in Wrath, and that they do not fix this JoW mechanic before then.
#3786SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
So, does that mean that whichever paladin is doing the judging is also getting the extra procs? It's usually our prot pally who judges wisdom, so I should be getting extra procs for refreshing it w/ my CS, but he should be getting exras for his extra melee swings refreshing it as well?
#3787SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
I think they're saying that if someone else has a JoW on the mob, and you have ANY judgement on the mob, your white swings wil have two chances to proc. Whomever has wisdom on the mob will never get that chance.

This has nothing to do with CS, Command Procs, or Consecrates - which is why the numbers we're seeing in raids is closer to 85% proc rate, and not closer to 100%.
#3788SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
noth
Ah. so it's my swing refreshing MY judgement that's proccing. So the prot pallys should be seeing the same results, which is what I was driving at.

Last edited by noth : 04/30/08 at 5:50 PM. Reason: grammar
#3789SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jeffmond
If the prot pala is the caster of the JoW he will only get the "normal" one chance to proc JoW as his melee swing hits the mob.
If the JoW is cast by a holy pala and refreshed by the Ret pala's CS and the Prot has cast JoL, both the Ret and the Prot have the chance to proc an extra JoW as they refresh their own Judgements by melee hits. right?
#3790SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
I think this pretty much settles it, this is the "missing link" we were looking for to explain the JoW weirdness, nice work Also means good bye vindication for pve specs.

For future calculations, just assume a rough ~85% proc chance for JoW if you're using the right rotations and a holy paladin sets the JoW (which should always be the case).


Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
However, given that we appear to be making use of a bugged(or at least unintended) JoW mechanic AND 2 piece T6 to become reasonably mana efficient/self sufficient, it throws into harsh relief our mana problems. I hope they have a comprehensive fix for that coming in Wrath, and that they do not fix this JoW mechanic before then.
(Quick, hide the posts!) In other news, if this "bug" is fixed, we'd be looking at a very harsh mana nerf. Considering most report up to 20k mana returned from JoW at Brutallus and current ~85% proc chance combining all abilities, if it goes down to the supposed 50%, we'll lose roughly ~8k mana off that.

I think this would leave us in a pretty tight spot mana wise.
#3791SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Jeffmond View Post
If the prot pala is the caster of the JoW he will only get the "normal" one chance to proc JoW as his melee swing hits the mob.
If the JoW is cast by a holy pala and refreshed by the Ret pala's CS and the Prot has cast JoL, both the Ret and the Prot have the chance to proc an extra JoW as they refresh their own Judgements by melee hits. right?
Yes if a group has a prot pally, a ret pally, and a holly pally then getting the holly pally to cast JoW is the best solution.

Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
(Quick, hide the posts!) In other news, if this "bug" is fixed, we'd be looking at a very harsh mana nerf. Considering most report up to 20k mana returned from JoW at Brutallus and current ~85% proc chance combining all abilities, if it goes down to the supposed 50%, we'll lose roughly ~8k mana off that.
Bug... no I'm sure Blizzard in their infinite wisdom intended this from the start in order to solve our mana issues... (sucking up can't hurt can it?)
#3792SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1nokomisa
In an upcomming patch, seal of the crusader is getting buffed. It now makes crusader strike do 40% more damage, in other words it now does 150% weapon damage. Add 356 bonus ATP and 40% faster attack, does this make seal of command the weaker of the two? not to mention 40% faster attack procs crits much faster, potentially getting the +15% dmg bonus on shorter time. In theory, you would still jude crusader upon entering battle, but i think this makes seal of the crusader do more dps than seal of command. any thoughts?
#3793SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Morindor
Originally Posted by nokomisa View Post
In an upcomming patch, seal of the crusader is getting buffed. It now makes crusader strike do 40% more damage, in other words it now does 150% weapon damage. Add 356 bonus ATP and 40% faster attack, does this make seal of command the weaker of the two? not to mention 40% faster attack procs crits much faster, potentially getting the +15% dmg bonus on shorter time. In theory, you would still jude crusader upon entering battle, but i think this makes seal of the crusader do more dps than seal of command. any thoughts?
This has been questioned just a page or two back, I'ld suggest going back and reading what others have said.

Edit: Looks like page 148 and 149 have what you are looking for.

Last edited by Morindor : 04/30/08 at 9:15 PM.
#3794SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Blackwater
4 piece bonus t5?

Question.

Furious Gizmatic Goggles vs T5 Hat.

If I have the T5 hat, I get my T5 4 piece bonus.

Is it worth dropping some dps for that bonus ?
#3795SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Anarkii
No it isn't. Its a 6% proc chance on the heal.
#3796SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Morindor View Post
Bug... no I'm sure Blizzard in their infinite wisdom intended this from the start in order to solve our mana issues... (sucking up can't hurt can it?)
Ret Pallies without JoW done by another Pally still have mana problems.


It will be a great day to see the Wrath Pally changes, less reliance on mana is great.
#3797SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
It seems a new build has been deployed to the PTR. Perhaps someone could test SOTC again? I'm still holding out that CS is getting a damage buff from it, which would help with PvP at the very least.
#3798SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
Damn, I'm too late, had a bunch of wws of Brutallus without Vindication... and the issue's solved already ><
#3799SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1orkyben
Excellent, we no longer have to experience "Immune" messages all the damn time.

Lets just hope this isn't fixed anytime soon. =)

Thanks again for the conclusive testing done to prove this!
#3800SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gaizen
Originally Posted by nokomisa View Post
In an upcomming patch, seal of the crusader is getting buffed. It now makes crusader strike do 40% more damage, in other words it now does 150% weapon damage. Add 356 bonus ATP and 40% faster attack, does this make seal of command the weaker of the two? not to mention 40% faster attack procs crits much faster, potentially getting the +15% dmg bonus on shorter time. In theory, you would still jude crusader upon entering battle, but i think this makes seal of the crusader do more dps than seal of command. any thoughts?

It doesn't, Its only a change that affects ret paladins that chooses to judge crusader on raid trash while their judgement is still on cooldown when they are switching to different mobs. This just made Crusader Strike not suck while having SotC activated pretty much making you do a normal amount of damage.
#3801SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
Quick question

Can Vindication proc Items like the Shattered Sun Pendant and the Hijal Ring, ETC?
#3802SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Zurm
It used to be able to proc [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], but I haven't even tested that since 2.4 since I don't use the darkmoon card anymore.

While not a definitive answer, I would guess yes, but both are limited by internal cooldowns so the added benefit is neglible.

Last edited by Zurm : 05/01/08 at 12:40 PM.
#3803SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
It seems a new build has been deployed to the PTR. Perhaps someone could test SOTC again? I'm still holding out that CS is getting a damage buff from it, which would help with PvP at the very least.
Here you go!

In full DPS gear and a [Large Club]:
Normal CS: 440 damage
SotC CS: 583~585 damage


Difference: 140~


494 AP bonus = 35.3 DPS -> 128 CS bonus + Crusade/2h Wep. -> 140 CS bonus


If there was a 40% bonus on top of the bugfix, you'd expect to see 800~ damage CSs.
#3804SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
@Fiola: Thank you for the comprehensive test. I'll drop the subject
#3805SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Petersen
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
but both are limited by PPM so the added benefit is neglible.
Without launching into a huge treatise on how and why, PPM does not limit anything in the way your are suggesting. Internal cooldowns do, but not PPM... Unless they've stealth changed something in a recent patch.
#3806SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I meant internal cooldowns, I'm retarded. Thanks for not being retarded and catching my error
#3807SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Ret Pallies without JoW done by another Pally still have mana problems.


It will be a great day to see the Wrath Pally changes, less reliance on mana is great.

Well, how likely is it you will be the only pally in the raid?


About the Wrath changes, to me it sounded more like they're just trying to take the least effort route: Make us wear the same gear as DPS warriors so they have to design less items.

Unfortunately I've seen too much silly stuff from them over the years to still have good faith in them remembering to fix our mana issues after cutting our mana pool in half pretty much. Fingers crossed anyway.
#3808SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1akdjr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well, how likely is it you will be the only pally in the raid?


About the Wrath changes, to me it sounded more like they're just trying to take the least effort route: Make us wear the same gear as DPS warriors so they have to design less items.

Unfortunately I've seen too much silly stuff from them over the years to still have good faith in them remembering to fix our mana issues after cutting our mana pool in half pretty much. Fingers crossed anyway.
I'm assuming that the reasoning behind making us share DPS warrior gear is to tighten up loot tables. Having an item that at least 3-5 people can use vs. an item that only one spec of one class (and in almost all raids, only 1 person out of 25) can use. At least if they are planning the Sunwell route with regards to offset items (obviously none of this matters for set tokens) in WOTLK.

I'm still remaining optimistic even in the face of all the questionable retribution design decisions made since the inception of the game.
#3809SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well, how likely is it you will be the only pally in the raid?


About the Wrath changes, to me it sounded more like they're just trying to take the least effort route: Make us wear the same gear as DPS warriors so they have to design less items.

Unfortunately I've seen too much silly stuff from them over the years to still have good faith in them remembering to fix our mana issues after cutting our mana pool in half pretty much. Fingers crossed anyway.
I just got a few new upgrades... naturally with no int on them. I'm down to a 5k mana pool unbuffed, which means I use over 5% of my mana pool just for one crusader strike. Saying that we need mana tweaking is a massive understatement, I'm constantly fighting to keep my mana up on fights.


On a side note... haste + expertise rule!
#3810SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Paragos
Now that we have the JoW and new SotC questions answered, maybe we can get back to the Windfury question that Fiola brought up. After the posted math, I am now questioning what the mechanics are. I would like to get into some testing. I'll see if I can convince our one enhance shaman to help me out.
#3811SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by akdjr View Post
I'm assuming that the reasoning behind making us share DPS warrior gear is to tighten up loot tables. Having an item that at least 3-5 people can use vs. an item that only one spec of one class (and in almost all raids, only 1 person out of 25) can use. At least if they are planning the Sunwell route with regards to offset items (obviously none of this matters for set tokens) in WOTLK.

I'm still remaining optimistic even in the face of all the questionable retribution design decisions made since the inception of the game.
Yea fingers crossed. To be fair, I really like what they did with Sunwell drops and having half of them replaceable for Sun motes.

Take out the Sun motes and just make it one-time replace-able class shared items and it would be pretty good.
#3812SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
The only difference better "warrior" gear and "ret pally" gear is Intellect. My bet is that they'll give us a nice fat Strength > Intellect (20/40/60% seems fair to me) conversion and call it a day. Not perfect, but it would help with a lot of mana problems, at least in the short term.

Either that or a strength > Mp5 conversion, which might be a little broken.
#3813SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
If all they do is strength -> int, we will be broken beyond belief. We'll be losing both 2 piece T6 and presumably the doubleproc behavior on JoW(although they may just leave this). Some form of regeneration is far more important than just a mana pool. Without some sort of independent mana regeneration, ret will only be functional in raids where a holy paladin can judge wisdom, ignoring PvP and all non-raid PvE.
#3814SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Saltycracker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Either that or a strength > Mp5 conversion, which might be a little broken.
This one might be a little OP. In higher level content when you have more and more strength, this will scale disgustingly. I dont think I would be able to get rid of mana fast enough with r6 conc.
#3815SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
Even if this issue doesn't really belong in this thread, I agree. Boosting our mana pool would be somewhat stupid, it would only be a quick fix for PvE fights... Regarding PvP, I think we need some love on mana... Making something like str -> mp5 sounds better. It would also make us more suitable for non raid situations, or anything without another pal around to JoW.
But that would require YET ANOTHER items fix, since losing stats for int wouldn't make a lot of sense anymore. Oh well, they are the one getting payed to make things right after all...
#3816SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The only difference better "warrior" gear and "ret pally" gear is Intellect. My bet is that they'll give us a nice fat Strength > Intellect (20/40/60% seems fair to me) conversion and call it a day. Not perfect, but it would help with a lot of mana problems, at least in the short term.

Either that or a strength > Mp5 conversion, which might be a little broken.
Like a Str/AP coefficient on SoW. (And SoL, while we're at it)


And since we're talking wishlists, I want a flying pony. = D



But yes, it'll be interesting what those "WotLK fixes" will do, seeing how temporary/partial the current changes are.
#3817SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ankler
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
But yes, it'll be interesting what those "WotLK fixes" will do, seeing how temporary/partial the current changes are.
The 51 point talent will turn you into an arms warrior.
#3818SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
If all they do is strength -> int, we will be broken beyond belief. We'll be losing both 2 piece T6 and presumably the doubleproc behavior on JoW(although they may just leave this). Some form of regeneration is far more important than just a mana pool. Without some sort of independent mana regeneration, ret will only be functional in raids where a holy paladin can judge wisdom, ignoring PvP and all non-raid PvE.
I'm only comparing gear here. Again, the only difference between Warrior and Paladin gear is intellect, other than that we want/need the exact same stats (down to the 9% hit, which is amazing). Extrapolating from that it makes perfect sense that we will get a STR > INT conversion talent, as it literally and figuratively removes any difference between the two.

Just think of it this way, with a 60% conversion and 1100 Strength (what I'd expect for a T7 naxx pally) you'll be getting 660 more intellect, or almost 10000 free mana. So no, its won't solve our mana problems and you'll still be able to push yourself OOM in no time, but it would help.

Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
And since we're talking wishlists, I want a flying pony. = D
I have been a staunch supporter of the Give Paladins a Flying Pegasus Mount movement for quite some time. Either that or let me fly when I pop AW.

That would be sweet.
#3819SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post

I have been a staunch supporter of the Give Paladins a Flying Pegasus Mount movement for quite some time. Either that or let me fly when I pop AW.

That would be sweet.
For 20 seconds. Then you fall out of the sky, and you can't even Shield because of forbearance. :p
#3820SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Ankler View Post
The 51 point talent will turn you into an arms warrior.
Why downgrade? Brut: MS war 1.6k DPS, Ret pal 2k DPS. Only fury keeps up (or surpasses).

This is just an outdated stereotype really. Bad joke mate.



Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Either that or a strength > Mp5 conversion, which might be a little broken.
Just to draw a parallel, excuse this slightly illustrative excursion:

"Shamanistic Rage
Instant 2 min cooldown
Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 30% of your attack power. Lasts 15 sec."

This is equivalent to a chance on every hit of the fight to gain mana equal to ~3.75% of your AP.

Better yet, a smart shammy will use a trinket at that point (+~400 AP with Zerker's Call) if he has one and since it's based on AP, it will work with all the AP procs from equipment (rings, trinkets, necks, yada yada).

So realistically we're talking about 3.75% of Sham's max buffed AP.

A fully pimped BT enh shammies has ~1800 AP unbuffed, throw in BoK, Unleashed Rage, SoE, BS, BoM, MotW, Imp Hunter's Mark, Flask, Food, that's ~3500 AP buffed (let me know if my math is off).

Add in a few procs and on use trinket, it can easily reach 4k at peak, at which point Shamanistic Rage is used best.


Still, lets take the slightly lower than perfect case value of 3500 AP, this would mean there's a chance per hit to restore 3.75% of that = chance to proc ~131.25 mana per hit.

Unfortunately I couldn't find any information on the chance to proc mana when SR is used, neither by googling or by searching the incredible amount of enhancement shaman data here on EJ. I guess it's probably my searching skills failing me and/or mana regen being a pretty unimportant issue for enh so it's not mentioned that often.

It seems earlier results concluded it was a 35% proc chance, however this later turned out to be false and is now regarded as a ppm since faster weapons seemed to proc it less.

However, due to the lack of information, I'll assume the 35% proc chance. Even though it's wrong, it's a good enough value to illustrate a point, I assume the 35% chance was gathered using a ~2.6 speed weapon (preferred enh 1h speed).

Now we're looking at 35% chance per hit to proc ~130 mana in fully pimped enh gear and buffed AP.

Assuming dual wielding 2.6 speed weapons, no haste, windfury weapon enchant, and the 35% proc chance, it calculates to something around 250 mp5.


Now I know this is incredibly rough napkin math with a lot of assumptions and it's definitely inaccurate on more than one front, however the 250 mp5 puts us at least in the correct ballpark range of what this ability is worth.

I also know that in practice Shamanistic Rage works very differently since during those 15 secs you can either get very lucky or unlucky, making the RNG especially tricky here since it's only over 15 secs at a time, not averaging out like a passive ability.

However, suspending nitpicking for a moment and using this 250 mp5 number:

An equally geared ret Paladin should have around 1k str fully buffed (800 ish base, 17 from GotW, 96 imp SoE, 20 from food and BoK on top), for a Str -> Mp5 talent to give us equivalent mana regen to 250 mp5 it would have to give 0.25 mp5 per 1 point of Str.


Anyway, just seen lots of questions about what would be balanced and what wouldn't and thought this would be a good parallel to draw from.

Last edited by Avitus : 05/01/08 at 8:57 PM.
#3821SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Veneda
Originally Posted by Ankler View Post
The 51 point talent will turn you into an arms warrior.

MS warriors have lower DPS then retribution paladins starting from early tier 5 gear and the gap gets wider and wider as you progress with gear. The reason for that is much better scaling of the paladin damage, related to the multiple talents rising damage by % and big part of the damage ignoring armor completly. In general, paladin hits for more and his DPS rotation is easier to manage (no need to use abilities that reset swing timer).

If end game raiding ret paladin got lower DPS output then MS warrior (with rougly the same gear and in the same melee group), then there is something wrong with him.
#3822SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Regarding our possibly impending mana problems, I'm honestly not worried as long as the itemization team is on the ball, like so:

For 5-man drops, which can be farmed over and over with no lockout, continue making Ret Pally-specific DPS plate with Intellect. The fact that only one spec of one class can use it is immaterial since you're not limited to one chance at a drop per week.

For raid drops, go ahead and make plate that we share with DPS Warriors, but make sure that the Tiered Ret sets have Intellect. That way, we step on no one's toes when it comes to Bracer/Belt/Boot/non-set itemization, but still have viable options for keeping our mana pool healthy.
#3823SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trakor
Fel Mana Pots + Darkmoon Crusade

Fel mana pots leaves a debuff reducing spell dmg. Assuming we have 0 spell dmg gear, only JotC to work with, would this debuff decrease the dmg from Darkmoon Crusade, consecration, JoC, exorcism and SoC? Or simply have no effect at all since the gear and charecter sheet themselves have 0 spell dmg?

Thanks for the answer
#3824SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
Fel Mana Pots + Darkmoon Crusade

Fel mana pots leaves a debuff reducing spell dmg. Assuming we have 0 spell dmg gear, only JotC to work with, would this debuff decrease the dmg from Darkmoon Crusade, consecration, JoC, exorcism and SoC? Or simply have no effect at all since the gear and charecter sheet themselves have 0 spell dmg?

Thanks for the answer
Someone else tested this, and found that the -dmg debuff only works on spell damage from gear (ie: Darkmoon Crusade trinket), but does not other +dmg effects (JotC). Having 0 + -dmg debuff is apparently the same as having 0 +dmg.

I'm not sure how things like iDivine Spirit or Wrath of Air totem fit in. (Though the former has minimal effect, and for the latter, you should have WF totem instead)
#3825SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Obbee
Originally Posted by Veneda View Post
If end game raiding ret paladin got lower DPS output then MS warrior (with rougly the same gear and in the same melee group), then there is something wrong with him.
Not always true, I did 2031dps (never gonna beat my 2033 =() on brutallus this reset and our MS warrior still did more dmg then me (Wow Web Stats).
#3826SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Veneda
Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
Not always true, I did 2031dps (never gonna beat my 2033 =() on brutallus this reset and our MS warrior still did more dmg then me (Wow Web Stats).

Did he respec in the meantime? He is fury now (armory).
#3827SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Obbee
We had 2 warriors in the raid, Farund (Farund - WWS) is the MS warrior.
#3828SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
For raid drops, go ahead and make plate that we share with DPS Warriors, but make sure that the Tiered Ret sets have Intellect. That way, we step on no one's toes when it comes to Bracer/Belt/Boot/non-set itemization, but still have viable options for keeping our mana pool healthy.
I don't think this ever was the solution really. Putting int on our items ultimately always made them inferior to warrior plate/rogue leather due to requiring part of the itemvalue for that.

A gear based solution would be to exempt int on plate from the itemvalue, though that's a Pandora's box I doubt blizzard will be likely to open, for good reason.

Which leaves the only plausible solution to be the previously discussed Str/AP -> Int/Mana regen talent (or trainer passive).

Keep in mind, despite int occasionally hunter mail can be pretty good. The only reason for that however is the additional separation between agi and crit on those items, so stats are better distributed (= you get more stats for your itemvalue) or special items like [Boneweave Girdle] which don't have stam.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Someone else tested this, and found that the -dmg debuff only works on spell damage from gear (ie: Darkmoon Crusade trinket), but does not other +dmg effects (JotC). Having 0 + -dmg debuff is apparently the same as having 0 +dmg.

I'm not sure how things like iDivine Spirit or Wrath of Air totem fit in. (Though the former has minimal effect, and for the latter, you should have WF totem instead)
Yea I ran those tests a few dozen pages back, basically the only thing that doesn't get affected by the -spelldamage from Fel Mana Potions seems to be spelldamage from JotC. Seems in general spelldamage from JotC is unaffected by any multipliers (for example sanctity aura), buffs or debuffs.

Everything else (which shows up on your character screen) is affected, so yea imp Divine Spirit, Warth of Air totem will take a hit from Fel Mana Potions, same as procs/effects like Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Also note, when taking Fel Mana Potions past 0 spell damage, you're character sheet will list "minus spelldamage" in red. According to a few tests I ran -spelldamage is the same as 0 spelldamage however.


Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
We had 2 warriors in the raid, Farund (Farund - WWS) is the MS warrior.
Out of curiosity, what was his party makeup and how many heroism's did he get? Might have to have a talk with our warriors *cough*

Last edited by Avitus : 05/02/08 at 7:01 AM.
#3829SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Our warrior, while normally fury, tends to beat me even while MS. The only time I beat him is when he's debuffing. That being said, he throws all kinds of QQ's when we ask him to spec MS/Slam because of the personal dps loss, and the fact that his fury gear right now is pretty amazing.


Bakatora, if anyone's curious. Look in my sig's WWS link to see his performance. He was MS/Slam for Brutallus this week, I believe.
#3830SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
Not always true, I did 2031dps (never gonna beat my 2033 =() on brutallus this reset and our MS warrior still did more dmg then me (Wow Web Stats).
Obbee, you gear is really good. But if you are using the same gear you have on armory for PvE I see 2 big mistakes i don't know why you missed them.

1- Your expertise rating is too high, overkill actually. The 3 new T6 parts (grats) + Shard + Hmn racial with maces/swords add to a lot more expertise than the one you need. Drop Shard, and equip the ZA trinket or something similar, you dps will go up no dout.

2- Your hit rating is too low, you are missing 1.5% hit to be capped. Either change a few gems or change something in your gear. Don't you have hyjal shoulders? Thats 1.1% hit right there.

Great work anyways, breaking 2k as alliance is like doing 2.2k/2.3k as BE.

Last edited by Deimosfobos : 05/02/08 at 1:11 PM.
#3831SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
2- Your hit rating is too low, you are missing 1.5% hit to be capped. Either change a few gems or change something in your gear. Don't you have hyjal shoulders? Thats 1.1% hit right there.
Unless he has a moonkin in the raid... I can't check right now because I get script errors on WWS, but thats something to note.

Great work anyways, breaking 2k as alliance is like doing 2.2k/2.3k as BE.
I highly doubt the disparity between horde and alliance is over 10%... MAYBE 7%, but I'm fairly confident that gap is quickly diminishing with the new gear. That being said, I have yet to get a Brutallus kill where everything goes right, I'm still excited to flex my e-nuts one of these days.
#3832SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Obbee
I do raid with a moonkin, and I got the t6 boots yesterday so thats why my expertise is high, but changing to ZA trinket would bring me to 1.5% below the exp "cap" and im not sure its worth it.

As I got the t6 boots im exp capped even without the human racial, so im thinking about looting a felspine over my torch not sure yet.
#3833SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
so im thinking about looting a felspine over my torch not sure yet.
I can't speak for alliance, but my personal experience with [Shivering Felspine] has been VERY positive. Hits about as hard as a torch, just way faster. All the new gear I've gotten with haste has given me a huge dps upgrade.
#3834SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
I do raid with a moonkin, and I got the t6 boots yesterday so thats why my expertise is high, but changing to ZA trinket would bring me to 1.5% below the exp "cap" and im not sure its worth it.

As I got the t6 boots im exp capped even without the human racial, so im thinking about looting a felspine over my torch not sure yet.
I never raided with a moonkin, so I never though of that

Regarding expertise, you have 1.3% too much, acording to the spreedsheet, shard is no longer the best in slot trinket if you have 3 piaces of T6 + racial. At leat untill you get Felspine you should consider using another trinket, if you have a good one of course.
#3835SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Deimosfobos
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I highly doubt the disparity between horde and alliance is over 10%... MAYBE 7%, but I'm fairly confident that gap is quickly diminishing with the new gear. That being said, I have yet to get a Brutallus kill where everything goes right, I'm still excited to flex my e-nuts one of these days.
Actually the diference is only getting bigger, since haste rich gear is getting as common as it gets. A BE pally with Obbee gear should outdps him ez by 200dps. The better the gear, the bigger the diference, even without haste gear, because SoB simply scales batter.
#3836SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Togi
Hey guys ! New Ret here now, been following this forum for a while (from the start hrrm) and now i decided to join you here discussing our spec mechanics.

Now onto a couple of questions. This Monday our guild transitioned from SSC/TK into Hyjal for the first time and after downing the two first bosses this "fast" progress made us end up in the Horde base and facing Kaz'rogal. I found myself Dpsing with huge mana problems on him - basically just Auto attacking. The fight ended at 24 % with me at ~500 DPS, i was pushing 1100 on Anetheron.

So now i ask how you usually do on this fight, i take it you're not reduced to Auto attacking. I wasn't wearing any Shadow Resistance since we were not actually prepared at going this far also my Mana pool is ~6k-ish mana. You using any special tricks or just stack a lot of SR ? Also, what is the cap for SR on the mark, so i can feel completly safe Dpsing.

Thank you guys for an awesome thread this far.

-Togi.

Last edited by Togi : 05/02/08 at 7:30 PM.
#3837SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
Shadow resist makes things a lot easier. Mana pot when you get the first mark, bubble out of the 2nd, hopefully pot for the 3rd, after that we start getting into trouble. a fast weapon and Seal of Wisdom can keep you from exploding if you run low. I've never done really stellar DPS on that fight, personally. I think our role there is to keep wisdom up for other folks as long as possible, and if necessary die without killing anyone else.
#3838SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
I wear full (365) Shadow Resistance for that fight and its still a pain in the butt. Just as Noth said your only real job on that fight is to just keep JoW up so the casters aren't running out of mana as quickly.

And don't blow up your fury warrior either, he'll bitch about it all night.
#3839SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Can't recall having much of a problem at Kaz'rogal. Sure you can't go all out and have to watch your mana, but I never needed to wear Shadow res gear.

Admittedly when you start in Hyjal your raid DPS is a lot lower, so you'll have to tough it out a bit longer, but still if you have the correct raid buffs and debuffs on the boss, it should be ok.

Just make sure you have: BoW, JoW, Mana Spring. Use Fel Mana Potions. If you have a Dark Rune, this is a good fight to use one.

Don't use consecration, only use Exorcism if you think you're in the clear and your mana should be going up most of the time.

Bubble a full mana drain effect at some point.


Here's a recent WWS log at Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats

No shadow res used


Originally Posted by Deimosfobos View Post
Regarding expertise, you have 1.3% too much, acording to the spreedsheet, shard is no longer the best in slot trinket if you have 3 piaces of T6 + racial. At leat untill you get Felspine you should consider using another trinket, if you have a good one of course.
Rawr lists Shard of Contempt ahead of everything except DMC:C and Dragonspine, even with 3x T6 expertise pieces and racial. Going to Berserker's Call seems to be a 10 DPS loss.

Problem is, if you ditch the Shard, you're 24.5 under the expertise cap. So even though you will be effectively wasting 19.5 expertise if you do use it, it's still seems to be superior to most other trinkets.


Regarding SoB vs SoC: With more haste gear the discrepancy is actually increasing unfortunately, not diminishing :/ Given end of Sunwell gear we'll be looking at over 200 DPS difference according to Rawr, especially with drum rotations.
#3840SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I wear full (365) Shadow Resistance for that fight and its still a pain in the butt. Just as Noth said your only real job on that fight is to just keep JoW up so the casters aren't running out of mana as quickly.

And don't blow up your fury warrior either, he'll bitch about it all night.

Just noticed this now, I'm surprised at how a lot of people are attempting this differently.

Some are going all out Shadow Res gear, some use moderate Shadow res and some don't use any at all. I have best results with 0 shadow res gear as mentioned above.
#3841SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1noth
I'd go full, but it borks up my meta gem. I've found moderate success with cloak, neck & boots, but your milage may vary.
#3842SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Togi
I'm always using Fel mana potions, Avitus - Thank you for researching out diffrent benefits from Potions. The group setup was Resto Shaman, Feral, Fury War, Ret, Rogue. We are currently missing an Enhancement Shaman, hence we use a Resto.
Will make sure i bring Dark Runes next time - should equal some more DPS. Other than that i quess i will just have to manage my Mana.

Last edited by Togi : 05/02/08 at 5:37 PM.
#3843SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
I did kaz last night with just my BT neck - rest normal

take a mana pot, make some healers toss you some heals or a renew - your good to go

I had to bubble and run out for the last 10 seconds though ... just luck sometimes
#3844SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Regarding SoB vs SoC: With more haste gear the discrepancy is actually increasing unfortunately, not diminishing :/ Given end of Sunwell gear we'll be looking at over 200 DPS difference according to Rawr, especially with drum rotations.
What if we use the "SoC can proc WF, SoC scales with haste" model? (SoC scaling with haste is implied if WF does not proc SoC) I don't expect that to make up the gap, but it wouldn't be growing as fast.


For my previous question about SoC vs. SoB WF scaling (assuming SoC does proc WF).

If we also assume SoC scales with haste, and a 40% proc rate (low-estimate, since DPS weapons are 3.5~3.8), we get 8% more WF procs, or +8% auto-attack damage. If WF cannot double proc, then that's lowered to +6.4%.
(I'm not sure about the double proc thing. I don't think I've ever seen it, but that's not proof in of itself. There's also a very small chance of it happening: White + SoC + 2x WF : .2 * .4 * .2 = 1.6% chance)

SoB does not proc WF, but can proc off of it, granting +20% * 0.35 = +7% autoattack damage while using WF.


On a slight tangent, this illustrates how dependent we are on WF totem as a DPS boost. It offers us roughly 40~% more benefit to our auto-attack (+20% AA -> +27~28% AA) than other WF-capable classes. (For DW, isn't WF less than +20% due to the OH not getting the WF totem enchant?)


Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
I had to bubble and run out for the last 10 seconds though ... just luck sometimes
I resisted 2~3 marks on this week's MH run, so luck is definitely a factor. = P

(Does Resilience reduce the mana drained?)
#3845SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
What if we use the "SoC can proc WF, SoC scales with haste" model?
There's a value you can change in the hidden sheets of Ballator's spreadsheet to fix SoC at going off the base weapon speed (instead of hasted speed), meaning SoC would get more procs the faster you hit:

The overall conclusion was something around ~50 DPS upwards, but still 150DPS behind SoB in endgame gear.

About SoC proccing WF, well I haven't really looked at this since I don't think it's possible. WF proccing SoC, maybe, but reverse, we'd need some data that suggests this first.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
(Does Resilience reduce the mana drained?)
That's actually a pretty interesting suggestion Think I might try that next time we go Hyjal (if I remember!)
#3846SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
(Does Resilience reduce the mana drained?)
This is a good though. I looked up the spells Kaz and Warlocks use and both have the same spell effect. I am pretty sure that means Resilience would mean you lose less mana.
#3847SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
...

About SoC proccing WF, well I haven't really looked at this since I don't think it's possible. WF proccing SoC, maybe, but reverse, we'd need some data that suggests this first.
http://elitistjerks.com/729256-post3722.html


To sum that post up again, 2/3rds of a random set of Alliance paladins have around 50% more WF procs than expected. SoB-using BElf paladins do not see this variance, and the # of procs is statistically significant. (2~3 Std. Dev. from expected value)

The variable is SoC - and when you include SoC, the # of WF procs you'd expect is much closer to the # of actual WF procs.


It implies
1.) SoC does not proc off WF. If you remove WF procs from the total number of swings, the # of SoC procs to normal hits is roughly what you'd expect.
2.) WF can proc off SoC. By including SoC procs, the WF proc rate becomes "reasonable". (unreasonable is getting more WF procs than expected by 2~3 Std. Deviations)

SoC scaling with haste seems to be implied by some of the WWS parses, but we'd need more data (and perfect SoC rotation parses) to really figure that one out for sure. (The data for SoC is within the range of "being lucky") It would make for an excellent Dev. question somewhere. ("Does SoC scale with haste?")
#3848SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Update:

Latito and I have completed the first draft of the group comparison with Ret Pallies and rogues. Some results are fairly surprising. After we have some guildies double check our math and logic I will post it here. Expect the finished version within the next 12 hours.
#3849SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Update:

Latito and I have completed the first draft of the group comparison with Ret Pallies and rogues. Some results are fairly surprising. After we have some guildies double check our math and logic I will post it here. Expect the finished version within the next 12 hours.
I have a feeling I'm about to be disappointed and unhappy next raid, since established wisdom is that we're better in the melee group than rogues. Could you possibly say which way the surprise goes? Are we going to be surprised at how much better we are than rogues in a melee group, or are we going to be surprised that we aren't better after all?
#3850SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
The answer to that question is complicated, and situational. I would say the answer is neutral overall. As you will see in the assumptions, there are many variables we cannot account for, as we cannot use every spec and class permutation. Current ret pallies need not worry, as a short answer. Hopeful ret pallies will be extremely happy of the findings.
#3851SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Thanks, that brings a little peace of mind. Waiting with bated breath on the full results.
#3852SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Just noticed this now, I'm surprised at how a lot of people are attempting this differently.

Some are going all out Shadow Res gear, some use moderate Shadow res and some don't use any at all. I have best results with 0 shadow res gear as mentioned above.
My guild seems to always lose RNG (absolutely no necks off Supremus or Trinkets off Bloodboil in the 6 months we've been in T6 content... good game), which also translates into my resist rates apparently. The one time I tried running with less than max SR I ate all the DoTs except one, and despite potting, using a rune, bubbling one of them and Using Blessing of Sacrifice on the tank for a bit more SA regen I was still able to blow up the fury warrior and get bitched at the rest of the night (the rogues found it quite funny though). Since then I haven't bothered trying to go with less than maximum SR.

As for meta requirements, I use my old Tier 5 set socketed with [Void Sphere]s as some of my resist gear which covers the mets requirements nicely.
#3853SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
So I have a question about

Rawr
Maxdps.com
Paladin_DPS spreadsheet I found on this forum with the macros

They are all different. Rawr doesn't seem to care about mana and really doesn't value Tier 6. So, out of the three, what do you like to use as a comparison or upgrade guide?
#3854SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
The answer to that question is complicated, and situational. I would say the answer is neutral overall. As you will see in the assumptions, there are many variables we cannot account for, as we cannot use every spec and class permutation. Current ret pallies need not worry, as a short answer. Hopeful ret pallies will be extremely happy of the findings.
Well I'm excited to see what you come up with. Thanks for taking the time to do this Zurm.

I'm also curious about resilience on the Kaz fight. If this is true I might have to look at a gear set I can put together for my guilds up and coming attempts. This was a fight I wasn't really looking forward to.
#3855SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
So I have a question about

Rawr
Maxdps.com
Paladin_DPS spreadsheet I found on this forum with the macros

They are all different. Rawr doesn't seem to care about mana and really doesn't value Tier 6. So, out of the three, what do you like to use as a comparison or upgrade guide?
I find with some effort rawr seems to offer me the fastest and most comprehensive suggestions. I find rawr's values for T6 are realistic, it doesn't blow things out of proportion, and rates them above the other sets and below some of the leather/mail and sunwell gear that I would expect it to be be beaten by given my stats. None of these tools consider the set bonus so you have to put you're own value on that.

The worst of these resources is without question Maxdps.com. It does not take enough into account. The site creator has recently posted that he plans to change this so we will see what the future holds for Maxdps.
#3856SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Fadaar
I've recently started raiding as ret and there's one thing I've been wrestling with -- is Improved Judgement worth the points? And more importantly, if I do want to keep it, what should I drop to get with it? This is mainly only in relation to Brutallus, so dropping points from Benediction to keep it seems like the most effective route. Should also mention I plan on dropping 3 points somewhere (once again probably Benediction) to pick up Pursuit of Justice. I was being stupid when I first speced and didn't think to get it.

Gear still needs work, plan on picking up T6 pieces within the next week (namely shoulders/helm/chest, with bracers being sometime in the near future). Main problem is the stupid Supremus neck, hasn't dropped since January and without it I'm going to have to use the helm from Illidari Council to keep my hit rating capped. Trinket is another slot I need to fix up, however I'm pretty much limited to Berserker's Call or Bloodlust Brooch for the time being, or I can just slap the 80 AP pvp/badge trinket in there and call it a day.

Last edited by Fadaar : 05/03/08 at 5:36 AM.
#3857SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Noraj
Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
I've recently started raiding as ret and there's one thing I've been wrestling with -- is Improved Judgement worth the points? And more importantly, if I do want to keep it, what should I drop to get with it? This is mainly only in relation to Brutallus, so dropping points from Benediction to keep it seems like the most effective route. Should also mention I plan on dropping 3 points somewhere (once again probably Benediction) to pick up Pursuit of Justice. I was being stupid when I first speced and didn't think to get it.
The spec you're currently showing on the armory (5-8-48) is spot-on. You can drop one point out of Imp. Judgement, since one and two points are both used for the exact same rotation (always prioritizing Crusader Strikes over Judgements), but shouldn't drop two since it's a loss in DPS. If you feel that you absolutely want Pursuit of Justice in your build, and I'll admit that it is nice, then yes, you're best off dropping points from Benediction, so long as you can afford the mana cost. Trading points from anywhere else will cut into your DPS itself rather than your longevity.

Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
Gear still needs work, plan on picking up T6 pieces within the next week (namely shoulders/helm/chest, with bracers being sometime in the near future). Main problem is the stupid Supremus neck, hasn't dropped since January and without it I'm going to have to use the helm from Illidari Council to keep my hit rating capped. Trinket is another slot I need to fix up, however I'm pretty much limited to Berserker's Call or Bloodlust Brooch for the time being, or I can just slap the 80 AP pvp/badge trinket in there and call it a day.
Run Heroic Magister's Terrace as often as you can until you pick up Shard of Contempt. It's worth the effort. You might also want to swap from Savagery to Mongoose on your Torch. By "might," I mean that there are pages upon pages of discussion, all leading to the conclusion that Mongoose is almost completely always superior, and that you **should** look into this as soon as you can afford the mats.

As far as the helm goes...why not stick with Helm of the Illidari Shatterer over the Lightbringer happily? Given that +hit is starting to become a rarer commodity as we progress into SPlat, it'll serve you in good stead without having to worry about staying capped in the meantime.
#3858SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The one time I tried running with less than max SR I ate all the DoTs except one
Is it possible to post a log of the fight? Do you have JoW, BoW and Mana spring? Do you use any consecration?

Where I'm trying to go with this: It might be a possibility that it depends on how your guild does the fight. In my guild no one uses shadow res, at most the BT neck. We resist almost no dots, but have full performance gear on, so the boss goes down pretty quick.


Personally I resist none of the dots (I bubble one), but with no consecration use and only moderate exorcism, if I wanted I could stay at full mana all the time.
#3859SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
I can look, but this was quite some time ago (3 months or so) so I'm not sure if the log is still up.

The only classes we have wearing SR are the ones with chronic mana problems: ret pally, prot pally, mages wear partial. Its not really a question of killing him quickly, its a question of having 5.5k mana fully raid buffed and how quickly it can be burned.
#3860SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Zurm
Ready for your viewing pleasure (CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is welcome!):

Feral druids may or may not be added to the comparison in the near future, as is the possibility of a second dps warrior.

Ret Pally vs Rogue Raid Spots

Credits:

Zurm and Latito
of <Disbanded>, Ner'zhul US-PvP

Disclaimer:

There are many assumptions as there are many variables to deal with here. The goal is to SIMPLIFY THE SOLUTION. Most of the major factors have been accounted for, and minor changes wont make a large effect. We also don't know what your guild's entire raid looks like, and that plays a big part. We tried not to be biased, as this is a rogue and a paladin using math to determine the best possible outcomes. There are multiple variations which deal with the question of "where does the 6th melee go?".

Assumptions:

*The melee group consists of 1 dps warrior, 1 enhancement shaman, 2 rogues and 1 open spot.
*The last spot is a toss up between a ret paladin and rogue.
*We are dealing with a Blood Elf paladin. Alliance paladins will show 5-10% less DPS than calculated here.
*Demon Boss, 7685 armor
*Fight Length 6 minutes
(Essentially a Brutallus-like boss)

Raid Buffs:

Imp GOTW
Farie Fire
Mangle
Imp Hunter's Mark
Imp BoM
BoK
Imp Seal of Crusader
Misery
CoR
Sunder x5
Blood Frenzy
Haste Pot on CD
Flask of Relentless Assult (Note: Rawr-Retribution does not support Elixir of Demonslaying)
Hit food (Rogues), Str food (Paladins)
Deadly Poison OH (Rogues)

We believe these are fairly standard raid buffs. If your enhancement shaman doesn't twist (get one that's good and does), the math below will go slightly more in favor of the ret paladin as the rogue gets more out of GOA. The same is true if you don't have a survival hunter, both take a hit but since rogues dual wield they get a little bit more out of flat AP.

Baselines:

The following is assuming typical gear levels mid-sunwell. These players will have access to everything in BT and earlier, and for the sake of argument lets assume access to the 3 new pieces of T6 and any items dropping off those respective bosses (not necessarily all, but maybe 2-3 pieces of new gear). These baselines are raid buffed in a group with NO PARTY BUFFS. If you throw one of these into groups with resto shaman or tank groups, we'll cover that later by adding on to these. Note, we are assuming that the rogue(s) who are by default in the melee group have the warglaive(s), the rogue in question does not have either warglaive.

Retribution Paladin:

AP: 2800
Crit: 35%
Hit: Capped (0% miss)
Armor Pen: 200
Haste: 120
Expertise: Capped (0% dodge)
Righteous Weapon Coating

Rogue:

AP: 2400
Crit: 33%
Hit: 324 (2.5% miss after talents)
Armor Pen: 525
Haste: 101
Expertise: 21 (1.25% dodge)
Righteous Weapon Coating

Expected DPS:

Ret: 1350
Rogue: 1645

This is a best guess, we always get the melee group. I used Rawr-Retribution, Latito used the rogue gear spreadsheet to come up with these DPS values, removing ALL party buffs, leaving only raid buffs in, based on our current gear (our guild just killed Eredar Twins). We will use these mods to calculate later baselines, and your guild leaders can use same approach to make comparisons. We rounded up OR down to the nearest multiple of 5 dps to keep things neat.

Group sets:

We are going to ignore the worst case (healer group), as the Baseline essentially covers that. We will try to make these as incremental as possible, but for the sake of forum bandwidth and sanity we will leave it to just a few differences.

Set 1:
Tank Group (Resto sham dropping WF, LoTP from Feral Tank)

Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Windfury (regular)
*Bloodlust

Ret: 1640
Rogue: 1900

Set 2:
Hunter/Feral DPS Group (Resto sham dropping GOA, 2 BM Hunters, LoTP)

Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Ferocious Inspiration x2
*Strength of Earth (regular)


*Grace of Air (regular)
*Bloodlust
*Righteous Weapon Coating MH for Rogue/Pally

Ret: 1630
Rogue: 1950

Set 3:
Melee Group (DPS War, Rogue, Rogue, Enh Sham)

Buffs Added (from base):
*Strength of Earth (improved)
*Twisted Grace of Air (improved)
*Windfury (improved)
*Bloodlust
*Unleashed Rage
*Battle Shout (improved, no solarian)
*Windfury (improved)
*Drums of Battle x1 (Rawr-Retribution does not support multiple drums)

Ret: 1900
Rogue: 2280

Paladin Raid Contribution:

Here, we need a bunch of assumptions. First, the rogue is NOT using improved expose armor as most guilds use at least 1 warrior tank. While a double-druid/paladin tank situation certainly exists (including in our own guild), this is generally not the standard. In addition, since we don't know your guild's group makeup in specific, we are going to use a fairly generic set of data, so lets take an average brutallus setup...average raid dps around 30k, it would be about 450 raid bonus from Judgement of the Crusader (being conservative, its probably more like 600). As for the party damage, you can get a further benefit from the 2% damage of imp sanctity aura. This number can vary largely depending on who's in the group (and whether or not its a tank group), but lets assume an average DPS group has 4 others who do 1500 dps you are slapping another 120 raid DPS (a conservative amount on a fight like brutalus, more like 160) onto the the final amount. This assumption basically says that if you are questioning whether or not you need a ret paladin or another rogue in the raid, you ALWAYS go with the ret paladin (if and ONLY if you have no ret paladin currently), regardless of what group you slap them in. A rogue would have to have some way of adding MORE than (570-personal DPS difference) raid dps to be more useful... and if you have more than one rogue the expose armor arguement goes out the window.

Scenarios:

This is ignoring the paladins side RDPS benefit from Judgement of the Crusader, as that applies regardless of group.

1) Stick the rogue in the melee group, and the paladin in the tank group: 3950 DPS

Imp Sanc Aura benefit is neglible due to tank dps, we will lower the boost to 30 RDPS from 120.
1640 + 2280 + 30 = 3950 DPS

2) Paladin gets melee group, rogue gets tank group: 3920 DPS

3) Stick the rogue in the melee group, and the paladin in the hunter group (resto shaman, so only 90 dps from sanc aura): 4000 DPS

4) Paladin gets melee group, rogue gets hunter group: 3970 DPS

5) Stick the rogue in the melee group, and put the paladin in a baseline (ie, healer group, 0 dps from imp sanc aura): 3630 DPS

6) Paladin gets melee group, rogue gets baseline: 3665 DPS


CONCLUSION:

Yep, that's right. In most scenarios, the rogue is better off in the melee group by a small margin, unless both are forced into a baseline situation. That being said, assuming any reasonable amount of gear and competency a ret paladin is ALWAYS better than another rogue if there is a question of having a ret paladin or not. If your guild is set up in such a way that the ret paladin or rogue would have to sit in a baseline group, you would probably get more raid benefit from dumping the rogue and recruiting another DPSER who can do more than 1645 dps after calculating raid benefit and group buffs (pretty much any dpser). Also, don't forget that a ret paladin brings in an extra set of blessings AND judgement of wisdom refreshing, which together are worth a VERY hefty amount of raid dps.

SHORT ANSWER: If you don't have a ret paladin in the raid, kick a rogue and get one.

Last edited by Zurm : 05/03/08 at 2:32 PM.
#3861SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nakari
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Group sets:

We are going to ignore the worst case (healer group lol), as the Baseline essentially covers that. We will try to make these as incremental as possible, but for the sake of forum bandwidth and sanity we will leave it to just a few differences.

Set 1:
Tank Group (Resto sham dropping WF, LoTP from Feral Tank)

Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Windfury (regular)
*Bloodlust

Ret: 1640
Rogue: 1900

Set 2:
Hunter/Feral DPS Group (Resto sham dropping GOA, 2 BM Hunters, LoTP)

Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Ferocious Inspiration x2
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Grace of Air (regular)
*Bloodlust
*Righteous Weapon Coating MH for Rogue/Pally

Ret: 1630
Rogue: 1950

Set 3:
Melee Group (DPS War, Rogue, Rogue, Enh Sham)

Buffs Added (from base):
*Strength of Earth (improved)
*Twisted Grace of Air (improved)
*Windfury (improved)
*Bloodlust
*Unleashed Rage
*Battle Shout (improved, no solarian)
*Windfury (improved)
*Drums of Battle x1 (Rawr-Retribution does not support multiple drums)

Ret: 1900
Rogue: 2280
Why do you assume Drums of Battle for the melee group, but not for the Hunter group? Last time I checked, Hunters could be Leatherworkers, too (and in fact, very often are)
#3862SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Cause that's how it is in our group! Either way, drums benefit each approximately the same. Makes little impact on the end result.
#3863SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khaelarys
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
http://elitistjerks.com/729256-post3722.html


To sum that post up again, 2/3rds of a random set of Alliance paladins have around 50% more WF procs than expected. SoB-using BElf paladins do not see this variance, and the # of procs is statistically significant. (2~3 Std. Dev. from expected value)

The variable is SoC - and when you include SoC, the # of WF procs you'd expect is much closer to the # of actual WF procs.


It implies
1.) SoC does not proc off WF. If you remove WF procs from the total number of swings, the # of SoC procs to normal hits is roughly what you'd expect.
2.) WF can proc off SoC. By including SoC procs, the WF proc rate becomes "reasonable". (unreasonable is getting more WF procs than expected by 2~3 Std. Deviations)

SoC scaling with haste seems to be implied by some of the WWS parses, but we'd need more data (and perfect SoC rotation parses) to really figure that one out for sure. (The data for SoC is within the range of "being lucky") It would make for an excellent Dev. question somewhere. ("Does SoC scale with haste?")
Speaking of implications, if it pans out that SoC generates additional WF swings, it also very well balances the "mana from SoB"argument.
#3864SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fadaar
Originally Posted by Noraj View Post
The spec you're currently showing on the armory (5-8-48) is spot-on. You can drop one point out of Imp. Judgement, since one and two points are both used for the exact same rotation (always prioritizing Crusader Strikes over Judgements), but shouldn't drop two since it's a loss in DPS. If you feel that you absolutely want Pursuit of Justice in your build, and I'll admit that it is nice, then yes, you're best off dropping points from Benediction, so long as you can afford the mana cost. Trading points from anywhere else will cut into your DPS itself rather than your longevity.



Run Heroic Magister's Terrace as often as you can until you pick up Shard of Contempt. It's worth the effort. You might also want to swap from Savagery to Mongoose on your Torch. By "might," I mean that there are pages upon pages of discussion, all leading to the conclusion that Mongoose is almost completely always superior, and that you **should** look into this as soon as you can afford the mats.

As far as the helm goes...why not stick with Helm of the Illidari Shatterer over the Lightbringer happily? Given that +hit is starting to become a rarer commodity as we progress into SPlat, it'll serve you in good stead without having to worry about staying capped in the meantime.
Thank you much. After spending a few hours last night toying around with gear setups (namely with Rawr) I came to the exact same conclusion on both the helm and the trinket. I had completely forgotten about that MgT trinket when I posted, so it's going to be my other trinket along with the Assassin's Alchemist Stone. Might lose a tiny bit of dps over the long run (over say Berserker's Call), but never having to worry about mana will overcome that entirely. Same with the helm, depending on which neck I use I might need to keep it to have my hit rating be high enough.
#3865SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sterlin
Can righteous weapon coating coexist with Wind fury - I thought not like sharpening stones... has something changed?

My other question is about Rawr ... I still can't figure out how Vengence Wrap beats Cloak of Darkness


Vengeance Wrap
89 Armor
Red Socket
+2 hit rating w/ socket
Crit 23
AP 54

Darkness
101 armor
23 STR - which equates to 50.6 AP with Divine STR and then with Kings
25 Stamina (gotta stay alive)
Blue Socket
+2 crit strike w/ socket
Crit 24

I just don't understand how Rawr Rates this higher.. what am I missing?
#3866SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Can righteous weapon coating coexist with Wind fury - I thought not like sharpening stones... has something changed?

I just don't understand how Rawr Rates this higher.. what am I missing?
No, RWC doesn't stack with Windfury.

For the cloaks, two possibilities: A) 23crit+54ap+2hit > 24crit+50.6ap. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Stam doesn't contribute to DPS (directly)
or B) Vengeance Wrap has a gem of a color you need for your meta requirement, and Darkness doesn't, so you'd be losing your meta bonus if you switched to Darkness.
#3867SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1shinato
I'd like to ask something about group setup. In the above post made by Zurm which btw was very nice to read, i'd like to know why you didn't include a feral druid as comparison?

The reason for asking is, we usually run with a melee group of enh. shaman, warrior, 2x rogue and feral or another warrior. We do not have any retribution paladins so that leaves him out atm and our guild leader is still a bit skeptical about it, as in, he needs to be convinced about retri dps and benefits.
I've been gathering information about retridins and there benefits to a raid, but i think i need some more concrete evidence. For instance, the above setup vs a setup with enh. shaman, 2x rogue, warrior and retri. Or Enh. shaman, 1x rogue, warrior, feral and retri.
I've been reading quite a bit about it on this forum but i haven't seen much of those setups. I might have missed it somewhere, and i haven't read it all, its so much to read, 150 pages and counting.

If somebody would be so kind to explain it to me or point me in a direction for this i would really appreciate that.
#3868SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
I didn't include the feral druid because it wasn't even a close competition. Feral druids don't get any benefit out of windfury, and the mechanics they work off of means they get less per point of AP than a pally or rogue (hence why they tend to have A LOT more). If you really want me to include the feral druid I can, but feral druids are much better off in a hunter group than melee group, if you can only place them in one.

If you guys REALLY want me to do the math, I will, but I'm telling you it wont even be close. Feral druids just can't compete when it comes to the benefit of a melee group.
#3869SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1shinato
thanks for the reply.

i do know they cant use WF, but what about the aura they give? 5% crit is quite something. So you're saying that the benefits a retri gives (aura, judgments) surpass that of a 5% crit a feral can give?

In other worths, the total DPS of the melee group would be higher with a retri then with feral?

I wouldn't mind the math, its something i would look forward to, to be honost, but you don't have to do it just for me
#3870SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
In most cases, the retribution aura of 2% dmg approximately equal to the benefit of 5% crit, sometimes better sometimes worse.
#3871SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cranberry
On the 1/2 vs 2/2 imp Judgement point - couldn't you just wait a second with 2/2 for the same effect as 1/2 and get the same results with more flexibility?
#3872SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Originally Posted by Cranberry View Post
On the 1/2 vs 2/2 imp Judgement point - couldn't you just wait a second with 2/2 for the same effect as 1/2 and get the same results with more flexibility?
Yes, at the cost of not using that point somewhere else.
#3873SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1cmdrsven
The whole point of putting just 1 point in Improved Judgement is to make the rotation easier to work with, with 2/2 Crusader Strike cd and Judgement cd will coincide fairly often and if you judge before CS you are in for a DPS loss. So, of course it's possible to wait that extra second, if you have the patience!
#3874SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
It all comes down to watching your cooldowns. If you're smart and pay attention you will never run into a "Judgement pushed back my CS because I have 2/2" situation. That extra point does absolutely nothing elsewhere, so I've never understood why you would even bother dropping a point from it.
#3875SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
I'd love to see Ferals added to that comparison as well. For certain, ferals do *tons* more dps in the melee group. Imp SoE, Imp GoA, UR, and Imp BS are *huge*. Compared to being with 3 hunters and a resto sham, the difference is hundreds of dps. (200+ for me) I believe the melee group gets more benefit from LotP than the hunter group does, as well.

It kind of sucks that the melee group is always enhsham, dpswarr, rogue, rogue, and then you get rogues, dpswarrs, and ferals all fighting for one slot.
#3876SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
For the dps comparison, is RWC better than instant Poison for a Rogue?

Another thing Sanc Aura has a 30 yard range, is the hunter usually close enough to get the 2% damage from the aura?

Good analysis otherwise.
#3877SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
One thing about the analysis:

Basically the conclusion is if we're talking ret vs rogue in melee vs hunter group it's +/- 30 DPS. So ultimately, it comes down to player skill/gear.

Possibly as a side note however: WF does give more mana to ret. Does it outdo those 30 DPS? I'd say yes.
#3878SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Yea, but like i said its pretty difficult to quantify mana into DPS. Skill is a bigger part IMO, yes, and there's a reason we did the math... it shows how close the difference is anyway.

Also, Latito told me that RWC was approximately equal to Instant Poison, and I'm sure it wouldn't make a huge difference on the final result.
#3879SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Instant Poison vs. RWC

There are a few factors that come into play here. First, when talking strictly about the personal dps for the rogue, Instant Poison will come out *slightly* ahead. Instant poison does not scale with as many stats as RWC does however, and as such RWC will tend to become closer at end-game gear. Either way, we're talking about a difference of ~5 personal dps.

Then you need to think about raid dps. If you have an Enhancement Shaman (which this report assumes) and an Elemental Shaman (reasonably standard).. instant poison is a VERY wrong thing to do. Consuming the Stormstrike charges with instant poison instead of letting the elemental shaman have them is a costly thing for raid dps. Your raid would be better off not having anything at all on your weapon.



As for Ferals, consider the tradeoffs:
In the hunter group they get 100% uptime on regular SoE and 100% uptime on regular GoA. They get 2x FI. In the melee group they will get 100% uptime on imp SoE (small gain), ~85% uptime on imp GoA (roughly equal to hunter group), UR and Battle shout (~900+ AP). Certianly 900+ AP is more beneficial than 2x FI, but by how much I am not sure. The 5% crit aura is used quite well in the Hunter group as well - it only affects 3 dps'ers instead of 4, however that 5% crit is quite big for the BM hunters when talking about maintaining FI uptime. Also, if your survival hunter is a bit lower on Crit, that 5% goes a long way to keeping EW up. Those benefits are slightly more intangible and at the very least a lot harder to calculate, but certainly important to note. Extra crit will certainly increase Flurry uptime on both the warrior and enhancement shaman, but not by a *substantial* amount. UR shouldn't be falling off ever long before this level of gearing.
#3880SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Togi
Since we now can start speccing away from Vindication for PvE, what's you opinion on Eye for an Eye in PvE ? Not sure if there's some rule set for what spells it reflects. A boss spell being reflected for 1-1.5k aint bad for a couple of points that i would have else put in Imp BoM.

Thank you.
#3881SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rasputin
Originally Posted by Togi View Post
Since we now can start speccing away from Vindication for PvE, what's you opinion on Eye for an Eye in PvE ? Not sure if there's some rule set for what spells it reflects. A boss spell being reflected for 1-1.5k aint bad for a couple of points that i would have else put in Imp BoM.

Thank you.
PvE spells do not crit, so Eye for an Eye will only ever proc on a boss if you are wearing resilience, at the appropriate rate. That means if you're using the S3 gloves, you have a 0.66% chance to proc EfE each time you are hit with a spell. So it's not really worth it, especially if you are moving through Sunwell and will be using those crafted gloves. Obviously if you're wearing more PvP gear your resilience will be higher and increase the chance that EfE will proc. In any case, it's certainly not something you should be getting at the cost of anything more useful, such as PoJ.
#3882SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Togi
Oh, mind strike. Just remembered that NPC's can't crit with spells.
#3883SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Togi
Currently i'm going with Benediction in my spec, this will probably change in a near future though - as i have found the mana you gain from having this ability is negligible. Was just having a look at possible talents for my remaining points. Imp BoM seems like what i will be going for, since i'm spending most of the time Buffing it anyway.

Last edited by Togi : 05/03/08 at 8:18 PM.
#3884SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Mirkael
I know this is not exactly the right place to ask this, but i dont know anywhere besides here that people with real end-game experience will answer me.

I'm not a newbie as paladin, but im as ret. In fact im healer since 70, and now that im starting sunwell, i have little to do when not raiding. Since i dont really like to start "alt's", i'm thinking about starting a retribution gear.
I have some IRL friends that play on another guild, and i will raid Krz, SSC/TK, Mag, ZA and this others entry level raids, on weekends when my guild do not raid. ( I dont want to heal this, since im long time healer, and i heal the entire week on bt/mh and sunwell )

What im unsure about is the real efficiency of a retribution paladin.
If i expend alot of time to learn how to play as ret efficiently, will i be able to have a DPS on par with the others on this level of instances? Maybe be on par with the Shadow Priests, or MS Warriors, or other "dps/R.Buff" classes.

I have some BT/Hyjal gear:
Reliquary Mace, BT Haste Gloves (the one without sockets), Rage Dps Shoulder, Hyjal Haste Plate Belt. I also have enough Honor for 2 Vengefuls, and 200 badges. If i complete this with Krz/heroic/badge gear, will i be able to do atlast ~900 dps? Or i need too much more gear to reach that?
I have read that a full buffed, full geared pally can reach 1350. I have seem some dps classes as locks, and mages, with less them optmical party/gear reach 1600. What i can expect in DPS as a pally in each gear level?

The last question: Optimical pally rotation is: Seal of Crusader, Tank Pull, Judge seal, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Judge Seal, Crusader Strike... etc... Is that right?

Thanks, and sorry to ask this in a Theorycraft post.

Last edited by Mirkael : 05/04/08 at 5:09 AM.
#3885SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Pitbuller
Check those numbers. Paladin can do 2000dps and warlock almoust 2800.
WWS Scoreboard


Edit: Try to kill brutallus without using good group synergy. Is two bloodlust on dps group so many?

Last edited by Pitbuller : 05/04/08 at 5:21 AM.
#3886SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Mirkael
I see your point there.
But this are totally stacked attemps to reach teh best dps possible, not a real Raid DPS.

They are probably using a rotation of many shamans doing BL on the party, and all kind of buffs possible.
Still paladins are the third lesser dps. (What a surprise, i would had expected lesser.)

And what about real raid experiences? Any comment?

On maxdps.com says my pally full buffed with the ret gear i have right now will have a max-dps of 677.
It seems pretty low, since i took into account, flasks and all consumibles, and also kings and might buff. (But not shout.)
Even on krz with a mix of krz, crafted and blue gear, mages and locks can do 600-900 dps. (Real DPS not Max)
Is Max DPS right? And i will do less them 677 dps? (Since i didnt take into account latency, and fight movement and other problems that may slow the dps.)

(I'm using, 2k buffed AP, 130 Weapon DPS 3.8sec, 143 Hit Rating (i know alot over the cap, but thats what i have on epic dps gear right now), 27% crit, 126 Haste, and SoB. )

Last edited by Mirkael : 05/04/08 at 5:11 AM.
#3887SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
PvE spells do not crit, so Eye for an Eye will only ever proc on a boss if you are wearing resilience, at the appropriate rate. That means if you're using the S3 gloves, you have a 0.66% chance to proc EfE each time you are hit with a spell. So it's not really worth it, especially if you are moving through Sunwell and will be using those crafted gloves. Obviously if you're wearing more PvP gear your resilience will be higher and increase the chance that EfE will proc. In any case, it's certainly not something you should be getting at the cost of anything more useful, such as PoJ.
Minor nitpick: Elementals can proc Eye for and Eye with their melee attacks, since they deal magical damage and can crit.
#3888SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by Mirkael View Post
On maxdps.com says my pally full buffed with the ret gear i have right now will have a max-dps of 677.
It seems pretty low, since i took into account, flasks and all consumibles, and also kings and might buff. (But not shout.)
Even on krz with a mix of krz, crafted and blue gear, mages and locks can do 600-900 dps. (Real DPS not Max)
Is Max DPS right? And i will do less them 677 dps? (Since i didnt take into account latency, and fight movement and other problems that may slow the dps.)

(I'm using, 2k buffed AP, 130 Weapon DPS 3.8sec, 143 Hit Rating (i know alot over the cap, but thats what i have on epic dps gear right now), 27% crit, 126 Haste, and SoB. )
Max dps is not really the best resource to use. It's not terrible, but there are much better options. I recomend downloading rawr:

Rawr - Home

While the dps it reports will often be more then what you see in raid it is a good number to shoot for. This program is certain to provide you with better suggestions for gear upgrades. Just make sure you have your talent included in the profile. It's hard for any of us here to help you with a dps gear question when your armory is showing holy gear.


I can't wait for the new thread so that all this sort of information will be available in the first post.
#3889SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1rockdg
wondering about how much dps i should be doing.

i have been palying a pally for years, but i have always been holy in the past. anyway i got into a new guild as a ret pally, since i am new ret i am still trying to work everything out. I was wondering with my gear ( The World of Warcraft Armory ) ( 1842 AP, 34 hit(way too low i know), 29.53% crit, 32 haste, and about 1100 armor pen. i am using soul cleaver ([Soul Cleaver])

Whit this gear being fully raid buffed with kings imp might, mark and 20 strength food and a 120 AP flask on, being in a group with shammy droping windfury and strengh of earth, and having a druid for 5% crit pull in group too.


What kind of dps should i be able to do. my best is 1150DPS on a boss but i dont know if that is good for my gear.
if someone could help me out that would be great thanks.
#3890SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Again, please use the spreadsheet or Rawr to find out things like this. Kaubel is giving people infractions for making these kinds of posts.

Spreadsheet (Excel)
Rawr

Any ETA for the new thread Avitus/Zurm/Whoever? I have a few new things I need to add to the JoW list before you post it.
#3891SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Avitus is in charge of it, I just wrote up the group comparison and I'll help him with Seal of Blood stuff.
#3892SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Togi View Post
Since we now can start speccing away from Vindication for PvE, what's you opinion on Eye for an Eye in PvE ?
Originally Posted by Togi View Post
Currently i'm going with Benediction in my spec, this will probably change in a near future though - as i have found the mana you gain from having this ability is negligible. Was just having a look at possible talents for my remaining points.
The choices where you can put those 2 points are very limited.

Eye for an Eye is definitely useless in PvE and as much as 2/5 Benediction might not be such a great talent (especially with the "counter synergy" with Sanctified Judgement), it's still the only place where those 2 points are not completely useless.

The other options are Deflection, Toughness, Guardian's Favor, Divine Purpose, Spiritual Focus etc. the list goes on. As you can see, they're all either talents that are useless for PvE DPS or talents that are just pure PvP (which are again as you might have guessed: Useless for PvE DPS).


One point of discussion is getting 2/5 Divine Intellect, however if you do the math, you'll quickly find out that if you have no int (or very little) on your gear to begin with, those 2 talent points will be even more negligible than 2 points in Benediction.

Unfortunately, with only 2 points, none of the actually useful hybrid talents can be reached which could have offered some versatility (mainly the higher level holy talents).

In case you have a holy paladin with imp Might, then you can get 5/5 Benediction and end up with 2 points that cannot be placed anywhere really to gain a benefit, catch 22.

I believe this whole ordeal comes due to requiring us to spend 8 talent points for 3% hit. If those 3% hit only cost 3 talent points, we could actually get somewhere with 5 + 2 left over points.


Originally Posted by Morindor View Post
I can't wait for the new thread so that all this sort of information will be available in the first post.
I already have a rough template for some of it, but haven't had the time this week to complete a fully polished article which I'd be happy to share as a "finished product".

I'm contemplating posting what I have so far as a work in progress with the most important links and roadsigns and ironing it out as we go.

Last edited by Avitus : 05/04/08 at 3:10 PM.
#3893SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Voinov
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
I believe the melee group gets more benefit from LotP than the hunter group does, as well.

I'm not sure...Hunter's critical hits do 230% normal damage on all their attacks...For rogues and wars it is only on special attacks...shaman and wars need crit for flurry ok...

But for hunts crits are also usefull for kill command, FI, thrill of the hunt, expose weakness...

the maths need to be done ^^


edit: ok i just saw a post before in which almost all what i just said has already been said...except that a critical hit is 230% normal damage for a hunter.

Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Consuming the Stormstrike charges with instant poison instead of letting the elemental shaman have them is a costly thing for raid dps.

Lol, in my raid, the SS charges are consumed by the lightning breath of the survival hunter's wind serpent...but except him and me, no one has noticed :')

Last edited by Voinov : 05/04/08 at 7:26 PM.
#3894SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1reph
Hello, I was wondering if anyone has done any tests regarding consecration and JoW?

I was casting Consecration rank 1 on a boss fight, which was judged w/ wisdom, and it seemed to proc a mana return every tick. Since the mana cost of consecration rank 1 is 120 mana, how much mp5 would that equal to myself, along w/ the normal rotation of CS and Auto attack.

Is it a bug, or could we actually be receiving this much ana back per tick? I will do more testing.


O...and hello everyone.
#3895SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
I believe the melee group gets more benefit from LotP than the hunter group does, as well.
I am 110% sure this is wrong. If you'd really like, Latito and I can bring out the math skills again to prove it, but I really don't even see how its close. Rogues aren't crit dependent, and if you look at the rogue spreadsheets crit is pretty low on importance. As mentioned above, hunters get way more out of it, plus the druid gets more out of a pure GoA group than a WF twisted group, IMO.
#3896SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I am 110% sure this is wrong. If you'd really like, Latito and I can bring out the math skills again to prove it, but I really don't even see how its close. Rogues aren't crit dependent, and if you look at the rogue spreadsheets crit is pretty low on importance. As mentioned above, hunters get way more out of it, plus the druid gets more out of a pure GoA group than a WF twisted group, IMO.
Difference between being in a group with EnhSham and DPSWarr and being in a group with 3 BM hunters and a restosham is about 100 personal DPS for me. I'd be interested to see the math on 5% crit for 3 BM hunters vs 2 rogues, a dps warr, and an enh sham.
#3897SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
I would expect it to be a dps loss for you, no UR is huge since ferals have so much AP. I'll try to get Latito in, and we'll use Rawr B13.1 as we did for the ret pally model. In fact, you could do the same thing we did with rawr; all it really takes is switching checkmarks in the buffs section... this is assuming your gear level is around ours, however.
#3898SourcePosted on <=2.0.0osmigos
Last week I mentioned that I had made my own spreadsheet and there was a request to post it, so here it is:

Ret dps spreadsheet

This is a very rough spreadsheet, and requires you to do all the calculations to determine your raw stats before you enter them. All the regular talents have been factored in, but no buffs or items other than windfury totem.

Also, it is only for horde paladins at the moment, and since I've been playing my alliance paladin recently, I haven't payed a lot of attention to it so there may be some places it's not up to date.
If you see anything erroneous please post a reply so I can fix it.

Last edited by osmigos : Yesterday at 2:34 PM.
#3899SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
If you would really like to work on an accurate spreadsheet for ret paladins, you might be better off starting with Bellator's spreadsheet (of course, ask him for permission and be sure to give appropriate credit). It already has most of the up-to-date math... may require some tweaking and gear updates but from what I recall it was pretty advanced (and is probably a useful tool for all those mac people who haven't figured out how to run Rawr on their computers yet).
#3900SourcePosted on <=2.0.0osmigos
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
If you would really like to work on an accurate spreadsheet for ret paladins, you might be better off starting with Bellator's spreadsheet (of course, ask him for permission and be sure to give appropriate credit). It already has most of the up-to-date math... may require some tweaking and gear updates but from what I recall it was pretty advanced (and is probably a useful tool for all those mac people who haven't figured out how to run Rawr on their computers yet).
I made the spreadsheet before Bellator's came out, and have used it since because it isn't so 'advanced'. Since Bellator's was released I only really intended to keep using it personally, but I posted it again here because of the request.
#3901SourcePosted on <=2.0.0makotospeaks
i see a lot of Alliance Pallies using DST these days, however Rawr says it shouldn't even be close to Darkmoon Card....whats the dealio?
#3902SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by makotospeaks View Post
i see a lot of Alliance Pallies using DST these days, however Rawr says it shouldn't even be close to Darkmoon Card....whats the dealio?
What gear are you basing this on?

Given my current gear there's a 3 - 10 DPS increase (depending on Consecration rank) in going from DST to Darkmoon Card.

Given end of Sunwell gear, there's 0 - 7 DPS difference (Consec1 - Consec6), between the two trinkets.

That's hardly "not even coming close" as you put it


Anyway, the reason for this is you make back the negligible difference and actually gain a fair chunk of extra DPS by using Fel Mana Potions and upranking Consecration. This would not work using the Darkmoon Card, since Fel Mana Potions would eat into the spelldamage benefit that card gives you, rendering it much worse.

Basically the logic goes:

DST + Fel Mana Potion + upranking Consecration > Darkmoon Card + Super Mana Potion + lower rank/lower uptime of Consecration

Haste potions are yet another variable, which I'll post about in the new thread
#3903SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Anarkii
Zurm will likely take up the development of Rawr.Retribution. He's a C# developer and has been wanting to help for a while. I've canceled my WoW sub due to various reasons and am moving to Age of Conan. I'll forward any pending requests I had to Zurm.
Thanks everyone for firstly making Retribution a respected spec and also your support for Rawr.
#3904SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Artisfact
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
Zurm will likely take up the development of Rawr.Retribution. He's a C# developer and has been wanting to help for a while. I've canceled my WoW sub due to various reasons and am moving to Age of Conan. I'll forward any pending requests I had to Zurm.
Thanks everyone for firstly making Retribution a respected spec and also your support for Rawr.
Sad day. =(
#3905SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Anarkii View Post
I've canceled my WoW sub due to various reasons and am moving to Age of Conan. I'll forward any pending requests I had to Zurm.
Thanks everyone for firstly making Retribution a respected spec and also your support for Rawr.
Sad to see you leave, thanks for the work you have done And do pop in if you decide to come back.

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 6:27 AM.
#3906SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Meuble
Have fun on AoC Anarkii (and see you there eventually)! Thanks for the work done anyway, it's a great tool you brought to us.
#3907SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
yea, I'm getting my home comp setup for dev. Sad day to see u go man. (sorry for bad typing on my iPhone)
#3908SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dandis
Hey everyone, I am a long time reader, first time poster.

I would first like to start by thanking everyone who has posted in this thread for helping to make retribution a viable raiding spec for more people. I have followed this thread for manys months now and am always picking up new bits of information.

With that being said, I would like to pose a question about aggro management to all of you.

It's no secret that I have a problem with threat. I come dangerously close to pulling off of our main tank and unfortunatly I have no active way of reducing aggro that doesn't result in a minor side effect of death. With salvation and talents I have 60% threat reduction, but this doesn't seem to help me very much and I'm afraid that as my gear gets better, my aggro problems will be getting worse. Someone in the raid gave me some shrouding potions but I fear that using those may prevent me from using a mana pot when I need it.

So I have a couple question for you all to help manage my aggro.

I usually wait til our tank has ~10-15k threat before I start attacking. Should I wait longer?

I use my special abilities every time they are off cooldown. Should I give them a few more seconds before I use them?

I blow all my cooldowns and trinkets at the same time to get the most benefit out of them. I.E. I have a macro that uses avenging wrath and pops my bloodlust brooch trinket at the same time. I also usually wait until heroism is up to get the most bang for my buck. Should I be spacing them out more?

Do you have any general tips for aggro management that I might not be aware of?

Any input you could give would be greatly appreciated. Here is an armory link for anyone interested The World of Warcraft Armory. Any criticism on gear choice would also be appreciated as long as it remains constructive.
#3909SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
You are doing nothing wrong from what you described... but your tank probably is. What kind of threat per second is your tank putting out? I know our tanks do 1.2k TPS easily, and I'm willing to be yours will be around the 600-800 TPS range.
#3910SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Dandis View Post
Do you have any general tips for aggro management that I might not be aware of?
Make sure your tank and you have the latest version of whatever threat meter you are using. Outdated versions of Omen or whatever had pally threat more than it should be.

Honestly I don't think a paladin is capable of pulling threat if a tank has 10k+ agro before you start attacking. We have a lot of burst DPS which could result in pulling agro if we don't wait for tanks to establish threat on a target. But our TPS will never reach that of a pure DPS class.

Just as an experiment, don't look at the threat meter and try to pull agro; I'm fairly sure that you wont. I say, go balls deep on DPS after 10k tank threat. If you pull agro with salvation and Fanaticism, then something is bugged. Pure DPS classes will out-threat the tank before you will.
#3926SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kadrok
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
Really… hmmm I must be missing something. I thought this trinket added around 35dps putting it up there with the rest of the trinkets like Darkmoon Crusade card, etc.
The Ashtongue Talisman is fairly decent at lower gear levels. I used it over Bloodlust Brooch for some time, because it seemed to provide slightly more benefit, even when efficiently using the on-use ability of the Brooch with other cooldowns.
#3927SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1JettJaguar
A couple of other additions might be:

Some sort of value for the T6 2 piece bonus.
A checkbox to disregard hit cap (someone also suggested expertise cap) to make it easier to plan out upgrades.

I also noticed that Draenei get the racial 1% hit automatically, but you can still add another 1% with the buff. As far as I know, two racials don't stack.
#3928SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Bryne
The Ashtongue Talisman should be a pretty consistent flat 30 DPS for blood elves judging every 8 seconds, and somewhat less for Alliance with Command being resistable.
#3929SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Morindor
Originally Posted by JettJaguar View Post
A couple of other additions might be:
A checkbox to disregard hit cap (someone also suggested expertise cap) to make it easier to plan out upgrades.
If this could be done it would be handy. I had mentioned it and the WE cap earlier because it would help me look at all the gear and decide what pieces I would want to get for hit and expertise over the long run. also:

- buff - haste potion - I love these things, pretty sure I'm an addict...
#3930SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
The need for a 'ignore hit/exp cap' will be removed in b14, when you can use the Build Upgrades List feature to find the values of items in terms of what the best set you could build if you had them would be.
#3931SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Haelfdane
Crusader Strike

I have been going over combat logs lately and on mine, Crusader Strike consistantly has a lower crit % than any of my other attacks. I am curious as to whether anyone else has noticed this? I am also noticing that it hits less often than auto-attack and command. I am hit-capped so not talking about misses, but parry/dodge/blocks. Would that have something to do with being an instant or is it just dumb luck on both counts?
#3932SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fiola
Originally Posted by Haelfdane View Post
I have been going over combat logs lately and on mine, Crusader Strike consistantly has a lower crit % than any of my other attacks. I am curious as to whether anyone else has noticed this? I am also noticing that it hits less often than auto-attack and command. I am hit-capped so not talking about misses, but parry/dodge/blocks. Would that have something to do with being an instant or is it just dumb luck on both counts?
Could you list the WWS/numbers in questions? It's hard to number crunch without numbers. = P

Even better, gather more evidence and tell us what you find. = D
#3933SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shikara
Originally Posted by Haelfdane View Post
I have been going over combat logs lately and on mine, Crusader Strike consistantly has a lower crit % than any of my other attacks. I am curious as to whether anyone else has noticed this? I am also noticing that it hits less often than auto-attack and command. I am hit-capped so not talking about misses, but parry/dodge/blocks. Would that have something to do with being an instant or is it just dumb luck on both counts?
The sheer number of people posting this makes me think it isn't just dumb luck. I have the same problems with my CS miss rate and crit rate and i just attributed it to dumb luck. If you look at a total of say 20 fights on wws... you're still only looking at say a thousand crusader strikes... which isn't an entirely statistically significant sample....only time will tell i guess.
#3934SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Haelfdane
Yeah, that's the other issue of course, there will always be a far smaller sampling of CS vs. all our other mele attacks but even so... I don't have WWS logs atm, I am mostly noticing it as I track myself questing and whatnot on SWstats. However, the one or two WWS reports that I was in (hyjal and SSC) showed me the same thing. Very low crit % on CS.
#3935SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1orcsgotbooty
Originally Posted by Shikara View Post
The sheer number of people posting this makes me think it isn't just dumb luck. I have the same problems with my CS miss rate and crit rate and i just attributed it to dumb luck. If you look at a total of say 20 fights on wws... you're still only looking at say a thousand crusader strikes... which isn't an entirely statistically significant sample....only time will tell i guess.
There have been similar questions about lack of crits in other threads lately to, the BM hunter thread, dps warrior, warlock etc. A few weeks ago I mentioned it but I haven't bothered to do any math of significance.
#3936SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shikara
Woot

Just did brutallus and managed to pull 2156 DPS
No special treatment, no lucky critrate, just one bloodlust and no stacked group (Oh and i'm australian so i play with 350ms :P)

Group comp was (Rogue Rogue MS warrior Enhance Sham)
Demonslaying (though i forgot to reapply the elixir during the last 30 seconds ><) + Mageblood
Shammy that twists GoA and WF (<3 Joystick)
Haste pots

Link to the WWS - Wow Web Stats

Finally another bloodelf up there!
#3937SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Shikara View Post
Just did brutallus and managed to pull 2156 DPS

...

Finally another bloodelf up there!
Impressive!

This is more in line with (or actually almost exactly) what I expected (or rather Rawr calculated) the discrepancy between SoC and SoB will be at that gear level.

Get expertise capped and you'll be bordering on op (you had 5 dodges, 1 parry).


Well done indeed

Edit: Also nice hunter dps, 2.5k!
#3938SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
shinato
I believe it has been mentioned before but i'll mention it again. Is it possible to implement a filter in the next version, a filter for the type of items, leather, mail, plate etc. Stuff like that, maybe filters for other things as well (epic and non epic gems). Or maybe to mention what kind of item it is when you hover over the items when you select something. I don't know all the items and find myself constantly opening the item in wowhead to see what it is.

Also i'd like to ask how the optimization works. When i open it, the text says to mark the items available that i want to optimize but i'm unable to mark anything. Am i missing something somewhere or might the function not be fully implemented yet?


And thanks for the hard work Anarkii, i first used Rawr for the druidtank model it had but now i've started to use it allot for the retri model.

Last edited by shinato : 05/08/08 at 5:20 AM.
#3939SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1orkyben
I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but I've just stumbled across the power of "Seal Twisting"!

Similar to the concept of Totem Twisting, using WF and Agility totems simulataneously, it seems possible to use 2 Seals at one time. If I can find a way to weave this into a PVE DPS cycle, this could be potentially amazing.

The idea is, to use Seal of Command, and just before your White Swing lands, to hit Seal of Blood.

Upon doing this, I'm getting my White Swing, a SoC proc, and TWO SoB procs! (I'm guessing SoC procs a further SoB.)

Obviously timing is a problem, but this seems like it could be a viable DPS technique.

Don't have much time this morning, but I've uploaded a quick video of this to Filefront:

Seal_Twist.avi - FileFront.com

=)
#3940SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
It has been mentioned several times before. Even if it's handy in pvp, I doubt you could twist on any pve fights without encountering massive mana issues. And even worse issues with GCD and CS.
#3941SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1orkyben
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
It has been mentioned several times before. Even if it's handy in pvp, I doubt you could twist on any pve fights without encountering massive mana issues. And even worse issues with GCD and CS.
Well you can of course use R1 Seal of Command for this, which is only 50 mana. Poetntially using it every 3rd swing or something, when CS is on cooldown could be an option, or maybe even weaving it around your Judgements.

White Swing ---> Judgement ----> SoC R1--------> SoB -> White Swing -----> .....continue as usual.
#3942SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shalymar
Originally Posted by Bryne View Post
The Ashtongue Talisman should be a pretty consistent flat 30 DPS for blood elves judging every 8 seconds, and somewhat less for Alliance with Command being resistable.
I have the Shard of Contempt, what I was looking for via the RAWR was if the Ashtongue Talisman was worth picking up and would it replace my second trinket the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

I read back some 100 pages that the Ashtongue Talisman scales with Vengeance, Sanctity Aura, and Crusade along with other debuffs like Misery from Shadow Priest bringing this trinket up to around 37 dps.

What I couldn’t find was solid information on how much dps trinkets like Berserker’s Call and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade added to our over all dps.

So I tried to figure it out on my own.

I know:
14 AP = 1dps

Avitus said:
Berserker's Call averages out at 150 AP passive.

Berserker’s Call: 150 AP = 10.71 dps
DC:C = 120 AP = 8.57 dps

Now I know our special attacks add to the over all dps these trinkets add so doing some more searching I found:

Darkmoon Card: Crusade over all dps around 28.00
Berserker’s Call over all dps around 27.00

I am not sure if these numbers are 100% correct, which is why I am asking if someone can double check to make sure I am not going crazy. If these numbers are close to being correct then wouldn’t the Shard of Contempt + Ashtongue Talisman be the two best trinkets we can get?
#3943SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1flyingtoastr
Actual damage increases from AP is determined by dividing by 14 and multiplying by either the weapon speed (white swings or unnormalized attacks) or 3.3 (normalized specials).

With a 3.8 speed weapon 150 AP is thus worth roughly 41 damage on a white swing and unnormalized attack (white attacks and Windfury attacks) and 35 damage on normalized attacks (Crusader Strike; however since CS is 110% of weapon damage it is actually about 38 more damage). Seal of Blood is also 10% of your unnormalized (I think) weapon damage, so it will increase by 4.

Assuming you swing every 3.8 seconds you're looking at 10.7 more DPS on white swings, 6.3 more DPS on CS, and a little over 1 more DPS for SoB. Pretending that crits and Windfury don't exist give you a baseline of about 18 DPS from Zerker's Call (A quick note about this: crits raise the value of Attack Power much higher and if you use the trinket during your AW cycle it is actually worth much more than 150 passive AP).

Running the numbers quickly for the Ashtongue trinket with all the percentage modifiers (Vengeance x3, Crusader, Sanctity aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Misery) and assuming a perfect proc rate of 50% it will be about 42 DPS.

Someone else will have to run it with crits (I am running extremely late) to find the exact comparison. It is worth pointing out however that the Ashtongue trinket does eat a debuff slot, so depending on your raid composition it might not be worth very much at all.
#3944SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1andz
Hi,
all these spreadsheets are fine, but I´m more likely a self-made-man and besides I´m not a very trusting person. Since this is the best forum of therorycrafting I know about, I thout this might be the right place to ask. So basically what I am looking for is a very basic formula like:

(Assuming hit is capped, 85ms delay.)
Crusader Strike DPS = including: glance, miss, critvalue, ap, expertise, weapon dps, normalized weapon speed (?), target`s armor - armor penetration

Seal of Command DPS = including: Spelldamage, weapon dps, and so on
Jugement of Command DPS =
White Dmg =

Idea behind that is that you can say: Changing 10 AP to 5 Agi changes Crusader STrike DPS by x.

Has anyone an idea where to find a formula like that, or can anyone support me with links or values. My intention is not to sit back and wait for anyone to do the work, however I am lacking the knowlegde to do it completely on my own.
#3945SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kris
Bellator's spreadsheet has been worked on for months, gradually refining it and improving it all the time. Do you really think you can beat that with a "very basic formula"? Feel free to reverse engineer all the stuff from the excel file though, everything you need is there.
#3946SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Avitus
Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
I read back some 100 pages that the Ashtongue Talisman scales with Vengeance, Sanctity Aura, and Crusade along with other debuffs like Misery from Shadow Priest bringing this trinket up to around 37 dps.
Minor nitpick: [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] (from now on called ATZ) "gains" from those buffs, but does not "scale" with gear at all.

It's important to make this distinction, because that's what it all boils down to in the end.

37 DPS sounds about right, but remember this is what it will do if you're naked, or if you're wearing full T6+


Now to compare:


Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
What I couldn’t find was solid information on how much dps trinkets like Berserker’s Call and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade added to our over all dps.
Rawr - Home ? Under Comparisons, Slot, choose trinket 1 or trinket 2 from the drop down.

In my current gear/buffs/rotation Berserker's Call gives me ~42.68 DPS, DMC:C ~61.92 DPS (though I don't use either anymore).

In my target gear BC would give ~44.41 DPS and DMC:C ~63.42 DPS.

As you can see they scale. If you choose T5 or T4 level gear and less raid buffs, they should give a lot less.

While it might be possible that at some very low gear level (we're talking greens and blues here) or complete lack of buffs/party synergy, those trinkets do less than 37DPS and ATZ would be superior in that case, but as I said this is very unlikely and not a realistic scenario to consider.


Originally Posted by Shalymar View Post
If these numbers are close to being correct then wouldn’t the Shard of Contempt + Ashtongue Talisman be the two best trinkets we can get?
Depending on what potions you use the best combo is Shard of Contempt + Dragon Spine Trophy or Shard of Contempt and DMC:C.
#3947SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shalymar
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Minor nitpick: [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] (from now on called ATZ) "gains" from those buffs, but does not "scale" with gear at all.

It's important to make this distinction, because that's what it all boils down to in the end.

37 DPS sounds about right, but remember this is what it will do if you're naked, or if you're wearing full T6+

Now to compare:

Rawr - Home ? Under Comparisons, Slot, choose trinket 1 or trinket 2 from the drop down.

In my current gear/buffs/rotation Berserker's Call gives me ~42.68 DPS, DMC:C ~61.92 DPS (though I don't use either anymore).

In my target gear BC would give ~44.41 DPS and DMC:C ~63.42 DPS.

As you can see they scale. If you choose T5 or T4 level gear and less raid buffs, they should give a lot less.
Ah okay thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Looking over my gear fully raid buff…

SoC - 60.68
DST - 49.02
DC:C – 42.59
ATZ - 42
Zerk Call – 36.30

So it appears unless I can get my hands on a DST, I am set on my trinkets for now.
#3948SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
I never really looked before but last night I also noticed that CS was hitting about 20% crit. But my melee crit stat is about 33%. Frustrating. Perhaps there is more to this than random luck? Have I overlooked something?

You guys pushing 2k on Brutallus amaze me. If I get 1800 it's a good try. Granted I dun have a better weapon or a decent weapon chant (Mongoose) but still.
#3949SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Giantlol
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
I never really looked before but last night I also noticed that CS was hitting about 20% crit. But my melee crit stat is about 33%. Frustrating. Perhaps there is more to this than random luck? Have I overlooked something?

You guys pushing 2k on Brutallus amaze me. If I get 1800 it's a good try. Granted I dun have a better weapon or a decent weapon chant (Mongoose) but still.
Sometimes RNG just screws you over
I don't think theres any reason in particular that you should be critting less on just CS, is your white crit rate as low as CS? Or is it just CS that has the low crit rate?
I've had instances where my WWS shows that my avg. crit for attacks are easily 10-15% higher than my character screen lists, and I've had times where out of ~250 attacks I crit about..10 of them with a 30% crit rate

Its simply just the games way of saying
Lucky: You aren't.

Has this low crit rate been consistent for a while now or was it just last night? Everyone has bad luck streaks one time or another

Last edited by Giantlol : 05/08/08 at 2:13 PM.
#3950SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Soultrain
It great to see pallys with those kind of numbers but i just dont understand what im missing to get those: /

Am I just not managing abilities and c/ds effectively? Seems like my gear should be able to pull more than I’m getting

A few thoughts I had were to switch out DM:C for BC and use that AW and a haste pot then go fel mana after that here is a link to our first brut kill 1750 dps not bad I guess but I want more our shammy is TT and we had 4 drummers. I have torch didn’t use it for that kill but I guess ill try using it for this week. I’m just not sure what else I can do : /

Any thoughts would be great.
#3951SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Paragos
Getting back to Fiola's topic of Seal of Command proccing Windfury...

I have not yet convinced my enhancement shaman to do some testing on this, still trying. We've been busy lately. Finally got Kalecgos down on this week. But, I've finally gotten a WWS parse now that upload is working again to see some numbers.

WWS- Sunwell Trash

Link is to trash only, which I can guarantee windfury was up at least 95% of the time.

Using the math from Fiola's Statistics Lesson I came up with the following:

1036 hits (640 + 396 crit)
360 SoC (255 + 105 crit)
214 Windfury

Excluding Seal of Command
SD difference was 4.3

Including Seal of Command
SD difference was -1.6

My math could be wrong. My knowledge of statistics is gleaned entirely from Fiola's post. I'd apprecaite someone else checking my work that knows these things better than me.

Conclusion, from what little I know of statistics, a 4.3 deviation is pretty huge. I definitely think this needs further investigation. I will continue to try to convince a shaman to get me a more clinical data set. If anyone else can help that would be fantastic.
#3952SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 frmorrison
I have had a lower critrate with CS (about 10% less) from my last two full Kara clears.

I just thought it was randomly unlucky, so didn't think much about it.
#3953SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Meuble
Anybody's good with maccros? Afterall, if we manage to make sure SoB will proc on the white hit (it's not always the case. If you fuck up with your timing, you might have no proc at all instead of soc + sob + sob or juste sob) it might worth the try.
I know nothing about maccros, so if someone is able to tell if there's any way to make one that will respect an appropriate timing, or if it's not doable at all, please say so.
#3954SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Buliwyf
My white hits and SoB are bang on the 32-34% range for crits. But again tonight my CS hovers at 18-22%.

I'm curious on something else. Consecrate on bosses. Now I know they changed it a while make to make it easier for Consec to clip bosses and I always used the "red circle" as a rough guide. Now they shrank all these circles and I can't tell if consec will hit or not. Will it land so long as I am able to melee it? For example Brutallus.
#3955SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Markara
From last WWS in BT my CS crit rate was exactly 26%, like normal swing! im messing around with haste, so i know its low these days but im changing my equip in a few days i think!

I think its just pure luck/unluck if crit rates sometimes seems a little bit off!

p.s.: armory could show me in BG-Gear!

Last edited by Markara : 05/08/08 at 4:05 PM.
#3956SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fadaar
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
My white hits and SoB are bang on the 32-34% range for crits. But again tonight my CS hovers at 18-22%.

I'm curious on something else. Consecrate on bosses. Now I know they changed it a while make to make it easier for Consec to clip bosses and I always used the "red circle" as a rough guide. Now they shrank all these circles and I can't tell if consec will hit or not. Will it land so long as I am able to melee it? For example Brutallus.
Yes it will always hit if you are in melee range (I've tried it on Brutallus and it's worked fine).

Back to the CS crit % thing, here's some WWS from a few of my ret runs (just speced for it about a week ago). As you can see, I'm having no issues with CS critting. No idea what's up.

Fadaar - WWS - Hyjal
Fadaar - WWS - Many Brutallus attempts
Fadaar - WWS - First half of BT
#3957SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Pulout
Torch of the damned vs. The Blade of Harbingers

Here's the odd part. The axe has better stats, more dps, etc. When I use bellator's spreadsheet, it shows me that torch is better. Granted it has the higher topend, but will the topend alone negate the crit and overall weapon dps that is lost?

I guess I want to know what the best weapon for me at this time is. We have BT and Hyjal on farm. I'm currently using the blade of the harbingers, and I was wondering if it would be worth picking up a torch or cat's edge. Thanks in advance for any input.

Addendum: I read the forums for a bit, and finally came across someone saying that it beats torch and even cat's edge. My question is why does the spreadsheet say differently?

I found the error.. for whatever reason, my version of excel wasn't clearing gems properly. I reloaded it and it seems to have the axe ahead of the mace by a decent margin.

Last edited by Pulout : 05/08/08 at 5:15 PM. Reason: Found the error
#3958SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
If I were you, I'd try out Rawr and see what that tells you. I can't imagine torch or cat's edge being better than the new badge axe, i remember when i was looking at it the badge axe was better by 5-10 dps.
#3959SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shikara
Originally Posted by Soultrain View Post
It great to see pallys with those kind of numbers but i just dont understand what im missing to get those: /

Am I just not managing abilities and c/ds effectively? Seems like my gear should be able to pull more than I’m getting

A few thoughts I had were to switch out DM:C for BC and use that AW and a haste pot then go fel mana after that here is a link to our first brut kill 1750 dps not bad I guess but I want more our shammy is TT and we had 4 drummers. I have torch didn’t use it for that kill but I guess ill try using it for this week. I’m just not sure what else I can do : /

Any thoughts would be great.
I can't speak for alliance and i'm sure the lack of haste scaling creates different mechanics (fel mana + consecrate etc)
but for any bloodelves interested on brut for this kill (Link - Wow Web Stats 2156dps 1 lust) my cooldown rotation was as follows.

(We had 4 drummers so assume perma +haste)

20 seconds in - Haste Pot (helps get vengeance stacked faster if you're unlucky as well, i'd do it earlier but i dont want to pull aggro)
2 minutes in - Bloodlust
2 mins 15 seconds in - Avenging wrath (i drop 3 max rank consecrates during AW)
2 mins 20 seconds in - Haste Pot
5mins 15 seconds - Avenging wrath
5mins 20 seconds - Haste pot

I'm usually able to sustain a constant rank 1 consecrate throughout and switch to max ranks during AW. I'll also throw in a max rank here and there if i feel i'm doing ok for mana (i know i could prolly manage this better with different ranks of consecrate throughout ie rank 4... but since mana regen is procc based.. rng ftl its frankly too much effort)

In terms of normal abilities.. i'm on a 350 ms ping so my rotations regularly get screwed up. Generally ill always prioritise in this order; Crusader Strike -> Judgement (for libram procc 53 crit rating) -> Refresh Seal of Blood -> Exorcism -> Consecrate. (Drums etc take priority over everything because group dps > my own) Occasionally if my swing timer permits (it rarely does when its a 2 second swing) ill judge, use another global like cs and then use the next global on SoB)

Hope that helps
#3960SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sujurek
I have found an issue with rawr. When examining bracer upgrades it is telling me that the best possible upgrade is:

Bladespire Warbands (20 str, 24 crit rating, 10 str gem, 5 str/7stam gem, 3 str socket bonus)

is better than

Lightbringer Warbands (33 str, 30 crit rating, 5str/5crit gem, 17 haste, 16 expertise)

Huh? Am I missing something? It's actually saying the bladespire warbands are the absolute best upgrade for me, but I cannot figure out what circumstance would make them better. Losing the gems would not cause me to lose my meta.

It would not make me lose my meta within my setup in Rawr.

Last edited by Sujurek : 05/08/08 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Clarification.
#3961SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Astrylian
The only thing I can think of would be you need a blue gem to fulfill your Meta requirements, but you say that's not it... If you're sure that's not it, I don't know. Send me and Zurm your character file?
#3962SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sujurek
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
The only thing I can think of would be you need a blue gem to fulfill your Meta requirements, but you say that's not it... If you're sure that's not it, I don't know. Send me and Zurm your character file?
Looks like I just needed to refresh the list after switching the gem in the item, so it seems to be a user error and not an issue with the program itself, apologies for the raised concern.
#3963SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Herzak
There was a post today on the US Paladin class forums about the CM Eyonix playing a horde paladin... the issue of Human vs Blood Elf Paladins were quickly brought up... mainly DPS differences between SoB and SoC this is his reply:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Eyonix, i hope you know you probably told alliance ret paladins the one thing that could make them more upset with you than before.

It amounted to them hearing that while you have actually listened to what they are saying, you do not see the (to them) obvious dps gap between races (not classes) as a problem, and have no intention of changing it.

I'm really hoping this is a misunderstanding and that's not what you meant... Is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eyonix:

We are aware of the concerns here. There are no immediate plans for changes in this regard. If we do decide to make any change, we'll let you all know.
Makes me kind of sad...
#3964SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Valerys
Now that M'uru has been killed, what are people's thoughts on Blackened Naaru Sliver?. Depending on the proc rate/internal cooldown, it could be better than DST for belfadins...

(stats here: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...well_loots.jpg)
#3965SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fadaar
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Now that M'uru has been killed, what are people's thoughts on Blackened Naaru Sliver?. Depending on the proc rate/internal cooldown, it could be better than DST for belfadins...

(stats here: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...well_loots.jpg)
Seems like a better trinket for fury warriors and rogues for the most part. Usefulness depends entirely on the internal cooldown, and in that respect amount of haste on said Paladin (for stacking more AP during the duration).
#3966SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Prinsesa
Has anyone else toyed around with Seal twisting?

I'm at work so I haven't been able to try it yet, and at the moment I'm wondering if it's at all worth dropping Crusader Strike for.

A radical idea, to be sure, but just thinking about timing seals with my swing timer is making my head spin without having to consider CS's 6 second cooldown in the midst of all that.
#3967SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
Now that M'uru has been killed, what are people's thoughts on Blackened Naaru Sliver?. Depending on the proc rate/internal cooldown, it could be better than DST for belfadins...

(stats here: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...well_loots.jpg)
I honestly can't see anyone able to stack this fast enough. I can pretty much guarantee it wont stack off of seal procs, and even as a blood elf with a ton of haste you aren't going to realistically break a 2.75 attack speed...which means in 6 seconds you make about 3-4 hits, where as a fury warrior or a rogue might make 10. It just doesn't seem viable, but as a Blood Elf the passive haste is quite nice. I'm going to try to model it for Rawr assuming a fairly standard 1 minute internal cooldown, and see where we go from there.
#3968SourcePosted on <=2.0.0rldolph79
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
I'm wondering if it's at all worth dropping Crusader Strike for.
Even puting aside the massive amount of dps you'll lose by not using crusader strike, you're losing the ability to refresh judgements which is the main reason we're brought along on raids to begin with.

A ret paladin that doesn't use crusader strike is a ret paladin that doesn't get to raid.
#3969SourcePosted on <=2.0.0SSWarder
Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
Seems like a better trinket for fury warriors and rogues for the most part. Usefulness depends entirely on the internal cooldown, and in that respect amount of haste on said Paladin (for stacking more AP during the duration).
I think it's safe to assume that this trinket has no internal cooldown and works on a PPM system only, like [Madness of the Betrayer] otherwise, if it had a internal cooldown, how would you be able to stack it?

Also a first glance, yes, looks like a better choice for rogues, fury warriors and maybe hunters, however if you consider no internal coooldown, it just boils down if the PPM allows paladins to build (and keep) a full stack or not.
#3970SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Shikara View Post
I can't speak for alliance and I'm sure the lack of haste scaling creates different mechanics (fel mana + consecrate etc)
I really dont think haste is as bad for alliance as everyone is making it out to be. Sure it scales better with SoB, but most of our damage is white damage anyways, and if you are hitting the target faster you are getting more chances for JoW to proc. I know my mana goes through the roof if I'm able to get a heroism/bloodlust. I pop a haste potion when I use Avenging wrath, and mana potions for the remainder of the fight. Drums rule etc.

Just my 2cents.
#3971SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by SSWarder View Post
I think it's safe to assume that this trinket has no internal cooldown and works on a PPM system only, like [Madness of the Betrayer] otherwise, if it had a internal cooldown, how would you be able to stack it?

Also a first glance, yes, looks like a better choice for rogues, fury warriors and maybe hunters, however if you consider no internal coooldown, it just boils down if the PPM allows paladins to build (and keep) a full stack or not.
I think you misread the tooltip. Its a chance to enter a Battle Trance... you can stack only while this "Battle Trance" buff is on you (which lasts only 20 seconds). The stacking is entirely dependent on weapon swings while the buff is up, you cannot stack continuously. If you could stack it continously it would be far and away the best trinket in the game, like a Darkmoon card on crack.
#3972SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I really dont think haste is as bad for alliance as everyone is making it out to be. Sure it scales better with SoB, but most of our damage is white damage anyways, and if you are hitting the target faster you are getting more chances for JoW to proc. I know my mana goes through the roof if I'm able to get a heroism/bloodlust. I pop a haste potion when I use Avenging wrath, and mana potions for the remainder of the fight. Drums rule etc.

Just my 2cents.
Haste has never been qualified as "bad" for Alliance pallys. It is simply worse than pure Strength for us (or Armor Penetration in certain situations), whereas it is better than Strength for Horde. Haste is still a DPS increase for everyone, it is just less of one for us than them (which is why the devs were still comfortable dumping massive amounts of it on SWP gear).

The reason Fel Mana pots come out above Haste pots for Alliance whereas Haste pots rule for Blood Elves is simply because more of their damage scales with haste.

The only people who call haste a bad stat are the... people... on the Blizzard forums who don't understand the class mechanics correctly (most of them who still insist that CS is holy damage as well, I had a fun 2 page argument about that a few weeks ago).

Originally Posted by SSWarder View Post
I think it's safe to assume that this trinket has no internal cooldown and works on a PPM system only, like [Madness of the Betrayer] otherwise, if it had a internal cooldown, how would you be able to stack it?

Also a first glance, yes, looks like a better choice for rogues, fury warriors and maybe hunters, however if you consider no internal coooldown, it just boils down if the PPM allows paladins to build (and keep) a full stack or not.
If you have any experience with it, think of [Pendant of the Violet Eye] from Shade of Aran. When the trinket "procs" you get one buff (called Battle Trance). You then get a second stacking buff each time you attack while you have the "Battle Trance" buff (knowing the devs it will be called Bloodlust just to f with our WWS's again ). Thus the actual stacks and the buff from the trinket are two seperate buffs.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 3:26 PM.
#3973SourcePosted on <=2.0.0SSWarder
My bad, totaly misread the tooltip, was already thinking about getting one of those but seeing as we can't even build a full stack unless we get a proc under bloodlust makes it much less desirable and much better used in the hands of other classes.
#3974SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
It's chance to stack 10 times, effect lasts 20 seconds. I'm pretty sure you can stack 10 hits in that time.

White, Windfury, CS will definitely count, possibly SoC/JoC.

Now where it ranks relatively to other trinkets is yet to be determined. Sometimes trinkets that look otherwise weak for us, still turn out to be better than most, if not best (DST).
#3975SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Morindor
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
I never really looked before but last night I also noticed that CS was hitting about 20% crit. But my melee crit stat is about 33%. Frustrating. Perhaps there is more to this than random luck? Have I overlooked something?

You guys pushing 2k on Brutallus amaze me. If I get 1800 it's a good try. Granted I dun have a better weapon or a decent weapon chant (Mongoose) but still.
Morindor - WWS

Morindor - WWS

Morindor - WWS

All show 2-4% less crit for CS. If someone is gathering data then I thought I might help by supplying the reports that my guild still has posted. These are just my 3 last raids, and there was no sleight of hand or omission of raids with a higher cs crit rate.

Edit: I have access to my guilds WWS and can undelete a few more reports if someone decides to use my WWS.

Edit: that reminds me my libram would make it more likely that I have more white crits then CS crits since I judge after I CS. I think all of these numbers I have fall within RNG, but I should see more reports with a slightly lower CS crit.

Last edited by Morindor : Yesterday at 7:14 PM.
#3976SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
I'm sure its useful, but weigh it against other classes.

Lets assume you have a 3.2 second swing timer (just pulling a random number assuming you have some haste gear). In the 20 seconds that buff is up you will get in 6 swings. Assuming a 20% proc on WF and we're looking at about 7 swings + 3 Crusader Strikes, or our 10 swings for maximum power. Assuming you get the first stack from your first autoswing and perfect results from there, you'll be looking at 16 seconds to get to the 440 attack power maximum. We get 4 seconds with 440 Attack Power.

Compare this to a Sword Rogue with a 1 second off-hand and a 1.5 second main hand (again, just spitballing numbers, but I'm assuming they have SnD and some haste). They will get a full 10 stacks in 6 seconds from only autoattacks, not even counting Sinister Strikes, Evis, etc. They will get the full 440 attack power for 14 seconds as opposed to our 4 seconds.

It is possible we will get procs from things like JoC (I have noticed it does proc "on swing" abilities like Executioner), but even so it is clear that Dual Wielding classes will be getting a ton more out of it than we will. I'm sure its a pretty nice trinket, but I doubt anyone will be in a position to wear one for a long while.
#3977SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Morindor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Haste has never been qualified as "bad" for Alliance pallys. It is simply worse than pure Strength for us (or Armor Penetration in certain situations), whereas it is better than Strength for Horde. Haste is still a DPS increase for everyone, it is just less of one for us than them (which is why the devs were still comfortable dumping massive amounts of it on SWP gear).

The reason Fel Mana pots come out above Haste pots for Alliance whereas Haste pots rule for Blood Elves is simply because more of their damage scales with haste.

The only people who call haste a bad stat are the... people... on the Blizzard forums who don't understand the class mechanics correctly (most of them who still insist that CS is holy damage as well, I had a fun 2 page argument about that a few weeks ago).
Haste is not better then Strength for me, although it is nearly as good, and much better then crit.
#3978SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Voinov
I think there is a bug with Rawr. The LotP buff does not seem to be added and does not rise the dps.
Has this bug already been reported ?
#3979SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
It is possible we will get procs from things like JoC (I have noticed it does proc "on swing" abilities like Executioner), but even so it is clear that Dual Wielding classes will be getting a ton more out of it than we will. I'm sure its a pretty nice trinket, but I doubt anyone will be in a position to wear one for a long while.
I'm not planning to go for one as I'm pretty happy with my current combo.

However, I think it's less important to compare how it affects different classes and more important to compare the new trinket to our current trinkets.

Is it better, or not? And if it is, by how much. That's all that should matter and leave each to reach their own decision based on that



I'd say the main problem is that we simply don't know what procs it. If it's just white and CS, yea it's probably not that great.

If it's White (+WF), CS, SoC and JoC, well then you can stack up 10 hits pretty damn fast.

In 9 seconds (assuming hasted 3.0 speed using drums and what not), you can have 3 white, 3 SoC, 1 CS, 3 WF, 1 JoC. That's 11 attacks in 9 seconds under optimal conditions. More realistically you'd have it all stacked in ~12 seconds (4 White, ~1 WF, ~2 SoC, 2 CS, 1 JoC) assuming 3.0 speed.


Just throwing numbers around, yea it doesn't look that good, but I'm still hoping for some more detailed modeling for it to be done (Rawr maybe?) to know for sure.
#3980SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
Getting back to Fiola's topic of Seal of Command proccing Windfury...

I have not yet convinced my enhancement shaman to do some testing on this, still trying. We've been busy lately. Finally got Kalecgos down on this week. But, I've finally gotten a WWS parse now that upload is working again to see some numbers.

WWS- Sunwell Trash

Link is to trash only, which I can guarantee windfury was up at least 95% of the time.

Using the math from Fiola's Statistics Lesson I came up with the following:

1036 hits (640 + 396 crit)
360 SoC (255 + 105 crit)
214 Windfury

Excluding Seal of Command
SD difference was 4.3

Including Seal of Command
SD difference was -1.6

My math could be wrong. My knowledge of statistics is gleaned entirely from Fiola's post. I'd apprecaite someone else checking my work that knows these things better than me.

Conclusion, from what little I know of statistics, a 4.3 deviation is pretty huge. I definitely think this needs further investigation. I will continue to try to convince a shaman to get me a more clinical data set. If anyone else can help that would be fantastic.
Thanks for the numbers. Your calculations look correct.

Just to better illustrate how the numbers are "off"
Normal Swings = 822
SoC proc = 360
WF procs = 214
raw WF proc rate = 26% (instead of 20%)

Normal + SoC = 1182
adjusted WF proc rate = 18.1%



I have a theory that WF procs off SoC, but only if there is no previous WF proc. (ie: cap on chain procs)

If that is the case, then for the 360 white hits that proc'd SOC, 20% (72) proc'd WF as well. That would leave only 80% (288) of the SoC procs "eligible" to proc WF.

Normal + SoC = 822 + 80% * 360 = 1110
adjusted WF proc rate = 19.3%


This data set is consistent with that theory, but we'd need some more data and better analysis to really prove it. Do we have any SoB trash/instance parses that we could use to compare WF proc rates with?
#3981SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Morindor
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Do we have any SoB trash/instance parses that we could use to compare WF proc rates with?
I posted a few WWS with SoB a page back. on boss fights WF is up ~100% of the time but on trash my shamman likes to screw with me and drop flametoung or nothing to try and beat me on the DPS charts so it's not always up on trash.

Edit: Post #3975 page 159
#3982SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Voinov View Post
I think there is a bug with Rawr. The LotP buff does not seem to be added and does not rise the dps.
Has this bug already been reported ?
Yes. (Fixed for b14, which will be released on Mother's Day)

Last edited by Astrylian : Yesterday at 9:52 PM.
#3983SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'm not planning to go for one as I'm pretty happy with my current combo.

However, I think it's less important to compare how it affects different classes and more important to compare the new trinket to our current trinkets.

Is it better, or not? And if it is, by how much. That's all that should matter and leave each to reach their own decision based on that
Its like Warglaives. They are technically best in slot for DPS Warriors, but most guilds will give them to Rogues first because they will get more out of it. No matter how good the trinket is, I'm nearly positive DW classes will get a ton more out of it than us, so chances are ret pallys won't be seeing a large amount of them.

That being said, I'm all for figuring out the actual value for the trinket in comparison to things like DST. It would be nice to at least have an option of not having to keep farming Gruul eventually.
#3984SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sapp
After being caught fawning over the advantages of Seal of Blood, apparently Eyonix's official response to the significant disparities between the factions of ret paladins is...

WoW Forums -> Swipe is OP, Paladins are fine?

no wonder Alliance Paladins get no respect, cause the CM never delivers any of Alliance Paladins Problems to the development team
Right, cause there is just such a HUGE list of difference between the two...
Indeed, and it stands to reason that we've heard your concerns on the matter. Both the community team and the developers.
Eyonix, i hope you know you probably told alliance ret paladins the one thing that could make them more upset with you than before.

It amounted to them hearing that while you have actually listened to what they are saying, you do not see the (to them) obvious dps gap between races (not classes) as a problem, and have no intention of changing it.

I'm really hoping this is a misunderstanding and that's not what you meant... Is it?
We are aware of the concerns here. There are no immediate plans for changes in this regard. If we do decide to make any change, we'll let you all know.
AKA: "sucks to be you".
#3985SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Paragos
Seal of Command procs Windfury

Not only does seal of command proc windfury, but there is no internal cooldown from the windfury totem buff. While I was testing in blasted lands with a large club, I noticed my SCTD addon showed a double proc of windfury. I found it in the log file. The quote below is a copy of the non-verbose log listed on WWS.

Originally Posted by Double Windfury Proc
20:46'31.142 Servant of Allistarj's Swing hits Paragos for 41 Physical damage
20:46'31.633 Paragos gains 1 Attack from Windfury Attack
20:46'31.633 Paragos's Swing hits Servant of Allistarj for 457 Physical damage
20:46'31.939 Paragos gains Windfury Attack
20:46'31.939 Paragos's Seal of Command hits Servant of Allistarj for 426 Holy damage
20:46'31.942 Paragos gains 1 Attack from Windfury Attack
20:46'31.942 Paragos's Swing hits Servant of Allistarj for 558 Physical damage
20:46'31.942 Paragos's Judgement of Light heals Paragos for 95
20:46'31.942 Paragos's Swing hits Servant of Allistarj for 558 Physical damage
Pardon my WWS showing me as a mob. These were my first uploads and I don't know why it did that.
WWS - No SoC
WWS - With SoC

My test consisted of using a large club for 20 minutes, once without seal of command and once with seal of command.

Without Seal of Command
449 hits
68 Windfury
17.8% proc rate -1.05 Standard deviation off

With Seal of Command
490 hits
104 windfury
164 SoC
27.0% proc rate 3.44 Standard deviation off
18.9% proc rate (SoC included) -0.62 Standard deviation off


These numbers show that I was a bit unlucky with proc rates, but it is well within the realm of possibility, with SoC included in the calculations. -1.05 off SD is about a 30% chance. 3.44 off is about 0.15% chance. However, I believe my combat log is the smoking gun, the proof that Seal of Command procs windfury.

What does this mean for us?
Alliance paladins are doing more damage than our models show us doing.
Any model which accounts for windfury needs to include a chance to proc on Seal of Command.
Unproven assumption - The disparity between strength and haste itemization increases more for Alliance paladins.

Overall, we're doing more damage than we think we're doing, and the haste itemization in Sunwell is even more "less good" for Alliance than Horde.
#3986SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Its like Warglaives.
I think comparing Warglaives to a trinket is going a bit overboard :P And yea our Warglaives go to rogues.

What it boils down to for me is: Lets not have another DST.

At the start of TBC, DST came out and I'm pretty sure most paladins (at least alliance paladins) passed for it, assuming "it's not so good", "it's better for other classes", "haste isn't that good for SoC" yada yada, the same things you're saying right now.

I myself didn't grab a DST until like a month ago, that's over a year after it first dropped for us and we've had plenty.

Turns out, not only is it a good trinket. It's currently the best in slot with Shard of Contempt using Fel Mana Potions. And by a fairly large margin over most trinkets too.

I'm all for giving it to a DW class if we know for sure (and it does at first glance not look that good for us, I agree), but I'd rather not have history repeat itself with this new trinket, so I'm not going to form an opinion until it's known exactly what is what.

The argument of how much it boosts what class by how much is really irrelevant. Save things like Warglaives, if you go by that argument, classes like fury warriors would be naked until rogues are fully geared, classes like shadowpriests would still be wearing SSC gear until all warlocks have full T6.

So yea, find out first, then decide. Think we should keep the whole "loot for this class or that class" out of the discussion though.


Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
Seal of Command procs Windfury

...

Overall, we're doing more damage than we think we're doing, and the haste itemization in Sunwell is even more "less good" for Alliance than Horde.

Very interesting.

Can we let the latest RAWR take this into account (WF proccing from SoC)?

I'm not so sure about your last statement however (haste being better for alliance than horde due to increase in WF procs), plug it into RAWR and lets see what comes out.

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 6:59 AM.
#3987SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
 Avitus
Running this through Bellator's spreadsheet by changing how WF procs are calculated, given my current gear, but less raid buffs than usual (some things are missing which Rawr has now):

WF only off white swings: 1860 DPS
WF off white + SoC (which procced off white): 1874 DPS

So yea it is an increase, but unfortunately not as large of an increase as expected.



Trying to replicate what the spreadsheet spat out through theorycraft:

At the theoretical 7ppm SoC, and 20% chance to proc WF off those, you're looking at:

1.4 extra WF procs per minute

Nice, however the bonus is much less than you assumed I'm afraid.



Note: I'm getting some discrepancies for SoB calculation between Rawr and the Spreadsheet. While SoC calculation seems to be within ~60DPS given the same gear and buffs, there seems to be a huge ~90+ DPS discrepancy for SoB (Rawr values it much higher).

Zurm can you go over how Rawr calculates SoB damage and compare to the Spreadsheet?

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 8:57 AM.
#3988SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
 Avitus
(Sorry for the spammage, but these are progressive posts as I found more detailed info)

Regarding Spreadsheet vs Rawr (something we really haven't looked at for ages), I've tired to investigate further and find why there seems to be a discrepancy:


Imp BS: Spreadsheet only gives 350 for Battle Shout. This is wrong, Rawr is correct (305 * 1.25 = 381.25).
Note: You should add an option to select [Solarian's Sapphire] in Rawr, it stacks with Commanding Presence and with it Imp BS gives 468.75 AP, before Unleashed Rage.

Blood Frenzy: Spreadsheet does not add 4% bonus to CS, Rawr correctly does.

Libram of Divine Judgement: Rawr applies this even if SoB is used, this should be fixed.


Something I had overlooked initially was race selection in the spreadsheet (=expertise gain for humans), this covers the rest of the discrepancy.

Anyway problem solved, Rawr is more accurate due to those 2 bugs above with the Spreadsheet, other than that, they're perfectly identical regarding how things are calculated.


EDIT: I've attached a fixed version of Bellator's Spreadsheet. I know it's been sidelined by Rawr, but I prefer to have it without bugs as it really helps when testing new theories quick, since you can edit the data sheets quickly.

Paladin_Dps_v35_2.4

-Added Imp Battle Shout and fixed the value for regular Battle Shout.
-Fixed Blood Frenzy to work with Crusader Strike.
-There should be NO discrepancies between this and Rawr anymore (except the Libram of Divine Judgement fix for SoB, which has to be fixed on the end of Rawr).

Please let me know if something got broken in this update.

Hope Bellator doesn't mind and in the off chance he's still reading this, add it to the filefront link (PMed).
Attached Files
File Type: xls Paladin_Dps_v35_2.4.xls (575.5 KB, 19 views)

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 11:00 AM.
#3989SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
I will make that change to Rawr, Avitus.

In addition, I'm going to need a consensus as to how exactly how SoC works with WF now. Pretend I'm retarded, and spell it out in such a way that no one could possibly confuse what you're saying with something else.
#3990SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
In addition, I'm going to need a consensus as to how exactly how SoC works with WF now.
The consensus that needs to be established is the following:

1. Can SoC proc off WF?

Currently used assumption so far is YES, for both the current spreadsheet and Rawr.

Empirical evidence points towards this being true, with all the ~8.5ppm people have been reporting over the last 10 pages.

2. Can WF proc off SoC?

This is what's being discussed atm. Most recent results established by Fiola (+her secret gang of math monkeys) and Paragos point towards YES. More test results would further solidify this until we can call it conclusive.

(Note: Do read my reply about this before jubilating however, it's not as big a buff as expected).

3. Can there be chain procs?

Currently Unknown, mostly assumed to be not the case, however Paragos seems to have found a smoking gun in a recent WWS log (line 20:46'31.142 to 20:46'32.176) that shows it "can" double proc.

Why we haven't seen any WF proc off SoC proc off WF proc off SoC, I don't know, probably because it's extremely unlikely, maybe cause it's hard to tell what attack a proc belongs to during combat or maybe because there's some mechanic in place (which is what we're trying to find out here).


Anyone who has some input or would like to do some further tests or number crunching, please add your thoughts (if you have anything conclusive or at least with high indication towards something).


Results of this will be used for the next Rawr release (and possibly a small update to the spreadsheet to keep it current), so we can use any input we can get to make it accurate.
#3991SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
The consensus that needs to be established is the following:

1. Can SoC proc off WF?

Currently used assumption so far is YES, for both the current spreadsheet and Rawr.

Empirical evidence points towards this being true, with all the ~8.5ppm people have been reporting over the last 10 pages
I don't think so.

The whole SoC + WF analysis shows that the % chance for SoC to proc off of a melee swing is only near the expected value if you remove the WF procs from the equation

For example, using the trash WWS paragos posted a few pages back:

Normal Swings = 822
SoC proc = 360
WF procs = 214


If we include WF procs, then SoC's proc chance is 360 / (822 + 214) = 34.7%
If we don't include WF, then SoC's proc chance is 360 / 822 = 43.8%

Going from memory (he has a large club on Armory atm), he used a Cat's Edge, which has a 3.5 AS.

3.5 * 7/60 = 40.8% << expected proc chance.


Using his other sample with a large club:
490 hits
104 windfury
164 SoC

w/ WF: SoC proc chance = 33.5%
w/o WF: SoC proc chance = 42.5%

expected proc chance: 3.2 * 7/60 = 37.3%


On the other hand, not including WF procs does not give us the expected proc chance, either.. so this could use some more investigation. I should apply the same sort of stat analysis here as I did for WF, but I don't feel like doing that right now. I'll try that later, and use some of the other WWS parses.
#3992SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
 Avitus
I don't think WWS from trash is a good measure. During trash you're not constantly hitting a mob, you're might lose SoC uptime, WF uptime etc.


The only results that should be considered are straight out Blasted Lands tests or boss results.

The issue I have with this is: There's been a handful of WWS logs in the last few pages (main brutallus where everyone is going all out) all showing ~8.5ppm for SoC.

What's causing this increase?

BTW, SoC proccing off WF is what Rawr and the spreadsheet currently use, so if it is wrong, we definitely need to change some things.


At some times I wish if we could have a definite response from a Blizzard dev about this. Certainly would solve all the dual proc uncertainty.

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 2:49 PM.
#3993SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Well, the provider of the WWS personally guaranteed that he had 95% WF uptime for the trash WWS. We're using the same set of numbers to prove that WF procs off SoC, so I'm inclined to believe that the SoC uptime was sufficient to give us insight on whether SoC procs off WF.

(Some of the higher SoC DPS WWS for Brut, which should have 95+% SoC/WF uptimes, also show the same pattern)


All that said, it looks like the actual proc chance is more than 2 SDs from either model (WF procs SoC, WF does not proc SoC). I'll post some more math later, but this is gonna need a lot more analysis. = P
#3994SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fadaar
Possible proof of SoCom procing WF?

#3995SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Bryne
Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
Possible proof of SoCom procing WF?
No. As has been said, it needs to be looked at through log analysis. Posting these incomplete combat log screenshots only serves to clutter up the thread.
#3996SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Sapp
You know, that's probably windfury proccing windfury. Remember, they accidentally reintroduced extra attacks proccing extra attacks in 2.3.

Warriors have been chaining sword spec again since then, too.


Edit: actually, I'm certain that screenshot is just windfury proccing windfury.

EditEdit: recheck your fancy pants mathing under the assumption that SoC can only proc once per combat round (IE has a very small internal cooldown) but windfury can chain proc.

Last edited by Sapp : Today at 4:34 PM.
#3997SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fadaar
Answers that question. Thank you.
#3998SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Paragos
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'm not so sure about your last statement however (haste being better for alliance than horde due to increase in WF procs), plug it into RAWR and lets see what comes out.
I'm sorry if there was some confusion. I meant haste is still better for horde, but more so, due to strength giving that 1.4 extra windufry procs per minute an extra punch. Anecdotally, I took my average swing damage from my Sunwell parse (total swing damage/(hits+crits)and got 1.4 extra white attacks per minute being a 44.4 dps increase.

1. Can SoC proc off WF?

I've assumed yes, so long as it didn't proc off normal swing.

My own calculations put my proc rate on the Sunwell Trash parse at 37.9%. What is different in my calc over Fiola's is I took out the windfury attacks which were assumed to have already procced SoC from normal attacks.

360/(822 + (214(.592)) = 37.9% which is closer to the expect 40.8% from Cat's Edge, but still a bit low.

The same calculation on my 20 minute fight.
164/(386+(104(.627)) = 36.3% also closer to the expected 37.3%

I'm still under the assumption that 2 SoC procs cannot happen within one second of each other due to changes to the reckoning bomb pre-BC, for which I am basing my above calculations.

3. Can there be chain procs?

I believe there can be chain procs of windfury, but not for Seal of Command, so at most 4 attacks; normal swing, windfury, seal of command, windfury.

I looked at every windfury proc in my parse and it almost always lists the windfury proc before my normal swing, then Seal of Command, then the windfury attack. The only discrepancy is the double proc I show. I also see the windfury attacks have the same damage, 558. I'm actually a little suspect on this occurance because of that. The chance for a double windfury proc should not be that rare, .2 * .373 *.2 with a large club, or 1.5% chance per swing. I'd really like some corroborating evidence to prove this. I don't think the server would send me the combat log message twice, but I want to be sure.

I also agree that my trash pull I may not have SoC up at all times, and the 95% windfury is based on my shaman. He is VERY good about dropping totems before pulls and keeping them up, but I could be running out of range on the chaos of sunwell trash. The only guarantee is standing in Blasted Lands. Is a 20 minute parse enough for a ppm of soc test?

EDIT: Posted before reading Sapp's comment. I think that can account for my double proc. I still feel evidence is very highly pointing towards SoC proccing windfury.

Last edited by Paragos : Today at 4:42 PM.
#3999SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Paragos
Current summary of Theory

1. Autoattack procs Windfury 20%
2. Autoattack procs Seal of Command at a rate of 7ppm (Based on current weapon speed)
3. Seal of Command procs Windfury 20%
4. Windfury procs Seal of Command at a rate of 7ppm (Based on current weapon speed)
5. Seal of Command cannot proc more than once per cycle
6. Windfury cannot proc more than once per cycle *

* - Most unknown, disregard my own double proc as I feel it was explained by the bug(?) Sapp mentioned.
#4000SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
You know, that's probably windfury proccing windfury. Remember, they accidentally reintroduced extra attacks proccing extra attacks in 2.3.

Warriors have been chaining sword spec again since then, too.


Edit: actually, I'm certain that screenshot is just windfury proccing windfury.

EditEdit: recheck your fancy pants mathing under the assumption that SoC can only proc once per combat round (IE has a very small internal cooldown) but windfury can chain proc.
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
...
EDIT: Posted before reading Sapp's comment. I think that can account for my double proc. I still feel evidence is very highly pointing towards SoC proccing windfury.
I'm not satisfied with that explanation.


If WF procs off of WF, then we'd see a 25% effective proc rate for all WF using classes.

ie: For every 100 swings, we'd expect 20 WF procs. From those 20 WF procs, we'd expect an additional 4 WF procs. From those 4 WF procs, we'd expect another .8 WF procs, from those .8 WF procs, .16 procs ....

Take the limit of that, you get 20 / .8 = 25 procs per 100 swings.
#4001SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Paragos
Sorry for the spam, but like Avitas, I'm posting as I continue to find new information.

I'm going to look at this from a different angle and figure out what should be expected if my theory is correct.

Given 1000 swing cycles using a large club how many times are Windfury and Seal of Command expected to proc?
20% windfury = 200
37.3% Seal of Command = 373
Windfury procs SoC = 200(.627)(.373) = 46.8 - 62.7% of attacks did not proc SoC on auto, the remaining have a 37.3% chance to proc.
SoC procs Windfury = 373(.8)(.2) = 59.7 - 80% of attacks did not proc Windfury on auto, the remaining have a 20% chance to proc.

Total
259.7 Windfury attacks or 26.0% of normal attacks.
419.8 Seal of Command procs or 42.0% of normal attacks.

My results from 20 test in Blasted Lands (Note: Removed double Windfury proc from results)
489 Swings (386 excluding windfury)
103 Windfury
164 Seal of Command

Windfury
Expected: 26.0%
Actual: 26.7%

Seal of Command
Expected: 42.0%
Actual: 42.5%


These numbers are very close to expected. I would really like another data set from someone in blasted lands to compare to.
#4002SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Just a heads up, my window for getting the SoC model changed for the next Rawr release is quickly closing... make a decision peoples!
#4003SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sapp
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
If WF procs off of WF, then we'd see a 25% effective proc rate for all WF using classes.
Are you sure we don't? Remember, offhand attacks for DW classes show up as 'swing' too, so your numbers are flattened. And MS warriors have Sword Specialization, which muddies the waters slightly there.
#4004SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Just a heads up, my window for getting the SoC model changed for the next Rawr release is quickly closing... make a decision peoples!
I would vote to just leave it as is until we have more testing done.

Remember, if SoC is proccing Windfury (READ: that means your swing does not proc windfury but the seal proc does proc Windfury, not that SoC is proccing off a Windfury attack) it is a bug. Windfury has been set to not proc on Yellow attacks, and SoC is a yellow attack. So yes, it may be happening in game, but in all fairness it shouldn't be.

On the topic of bugs, I ran the numbers for the "new" JoW with bugs for us and will post a new version of the list tomorrow (have to fix a few things with shamans again first).
#4005SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Paragos View Post
My results from 20 test in Blasted Lands (Note: Removed double Windfury proc from results)
489 Swings (386 excluding windfury)
103 Windfury
164 Seal of Command

Windfury
Expected: 26.0%
Actual: 26.7%

Seal of Command
Expected: 42.0%
Actual: 42.5%


These numbers are very close to expected. I would really like another data set from someone in blasted lands to compare to.
This looks promising. I'm going to run a 20ish min test myself when I get home, probably, if it correlates, it would further remove some doubt.



Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Just a heads up, my window for getting the SoC model changed for the next Rawr release is quickly closing... make a decision peoples!
I'd say go with this for the release:

-SoC can proc off WF (nothing changed here)

-WF can proc off SoC (this is largely based on Paragos' results, while not conclusive yet, it looks more likely than not, so we should include it)

-No chain proccing (again based on Paragos' results)


I'm hoping Fiola can comment on this too (mainly Paragos' latest numbers), since it seems there's some disagreement on the first point, however this has to go down tonight folks. I'll run my own tests to weigh into either conclusion.

Toaster, while I agree with you on WF proccing off SoC probably being bug, however what we're trying to ascertain here is "what is" rather than "what should be". It's by far not the first time we meet wonky mechanics that just shouldn't be like that in theory (according to the rules blizzard vaguely establishes on their tooltips), but are later proven to be correct in practice and we adjust our theorycraft accordingly.

If it turns out this is not correct, possibly release a minor revision for Rawr afterwards (Astrylian?)

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 7:02 AM.
#4006SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rizso
Sence alot palas have got into this new seal Twisting. Lot of have tested twisting SOC and SOB. They have got some really interesting resualts.

WoW Forums -> Seal twisting is godlike with SOB

SoC procs an extra Seal of Blood effect. Could this mean SOC is rather considered a so called normal auto swing/on the next attack skill instead of special attack?

That could explain as well why WF would proc on SOC procs.
#4007SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Prinsesa
SoC procs an extra Seal of Blood effect. Could this mean SOC is rather considered a so called normal auto swing/on the next attack skill instead of special attack?
Interesting view on the subject - it's like an elemental's melee attack: Follows melee hit and crit rules, and is even based on weapon damage, but is Holy damage so it appears yellow.
#4008SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Alright, I ran a 30 min test on a Blasted Land mob.

WWS Log: Avitus - WWS

(Don't ask me why it lists me as a mob)



(One minor correction compared to the WWS: It was only 590 swings, WWS is correct, those 2 extra accidental swings where after the test period had run out and I didn't have SoC or WF since were were trying to de-aggro the blasted lands mob)

Setup:

A shammy dropping WF (and healing stream) and making sure it never fades.

No Judgement applied to avoid any refresh mechanic oddities.

No JoC, CS or any other abilities used. Just Auto-attack and refreshing SoC before it fades.

I was using my regular gear which is hit capped and expertise capped, so no misses, dodges or parries (since it's a low level mob it was enough).

I was using no equipment that has haste procs: No DST (used regular AP trinket instead), no weapon with Mongoose (used [Large Club]) instead.

Time: 1800 seconds (30 mins)

Assumptions and base calculations:

Due to my 74 passive haste, the 3.2 speed weapon was hasted down to 3.06 speed: 3.2/(1+((74/15.76)/100)) = 3.05648 attack speed

At 7ppm, 3.05648 attack speed should give a SoC proc chance of 35.659%


Results compared to "classic theory" (no WF off SoC, no SoC off WF):

White Swings:

Theory: 1800/3.05648 = 589 swings.
Practice: 590 swings (771 swings - 181 WF procs).

SoC procs:

Theory: 7*1800/60 = 210 SoC procs
Theory again: 590 swings * 35.659% = 210.3881 SoC procs
Practice: 265 SoC procs (44.9% proc chance)

Theory is not matching practice.

WF procs:

Theory: 590 swings * 20% = 118 WF procs
Practice: 181 WF procs (30.678% proc chance)

Theory is not matching practice.


Calculation 1 (same as in Paragos' example):

Note: Paragos assumed SoC and WF cannot proc more than once per cycle.

Assuming WF can proc SoC:

20% * 0.64341 * 0.35659 = +4.58867% to proc SoC
New chance to proc SoC: 35.659% + 4.58867% = 40.24767% to proc SoC

Assuming SoC can proc WF:

35.659% * 0.8 * 0.2 = +5.70544% to proc WF
New chance to proc WF: 20% + 5.70544% = 25.70544% to proc WF


Results compared to assumptions from new theory (calculation 1):

SoC procs:

Theory: 40.24767% = 237.461 SoC procs (@ 590 swings)
Practice: 44.9% = 265 SoC procs

Closer, but still not matching practice (slightly under).

WF procs:

Theory: 25.70544% = 151.662 WF procs (@ 590 swings)
Practice: 30.678% = 181 WF procs

Closer, but still not matching practice (slightly under).

I believe Paragos initial assumption of "no chain procs" is probably false, hence the lower numbers. There was also a lot of number rounding being done in his example so it seemed to fit, however I explicitly did not round in my calculations and it seemed to not fit my data.


Calculation 2:

Note: I'll assume SoC and WF can chain proc.

Assuming WF can proc SoC:

Proc chance will remain at base (35.659%) but White + WF will be considered.

(590 white + 181 WF procs) * 35.659% = 274.93089 SoC procs
-> 46.598% to proc SoC off auto-attack

Assuming SoC can proc WF:

Proc chance will remain at 20% but White + SoC will be considered.

(590 white + 265 SoC procs) * 20% = 171 WF procs
-> 28.983% to proc WF off auto-attack

Results compared to assumptions from new theory (calculation 2):

SoC procs:

Theory: 46.598% = 274.93089 procs
Practice: 44.9% = 265 SoC procs

Even closer, though not a perfect match (slightly above).

WF procs:

Theory: 28.983% = 171 WF procs
Practice: 30.678% = 181 WF procs

Even closer, though not a perfect match (slightly under).


Conclusion:

It seems pretty obvious that "classic theory" where nothing procs off each other is not correct.
There is still a slight discrepancy (96.4% match to actual SoC, 94.5% match to actual WF) between this "new theory" and actual results, however this can be attributed to only having run a 30 min test (600 swings) rather than a more conclusive 10000 swing test.

I can also pretty much conclude that yes, SoC and WF have to have some sort of relationship allowing them to proc off each other. Since I avoided all other outside influences/variables in my test, this is the only remaining explanation. I consider this a conclusive result (mutual proccing) and a done deal.

Furthermore, there's a high indication, though not conclusive, that they can chain proc as illustrated above. Why we don't notice it in game could be attributed to the spammy nature of the combat log and not being able to tell the "proc source" of procs. There also might be a conclusion inbetween 1 proc each per cycle and being able to proc indefinitely, but I can't figure it out atm, there's definitely something however.

I remember in the old days of Reckoning bombs, if you used SoC, in the 5 swings you unleashed there was ALWAYS a SoC proc (I never had one without). I also remember quiet distinctly freak occurrences of 2 SoC procs from a 5 swing reck bomb, though they were very rare. There might be something regarding allowing chain procs, but really limiting their chance of occurring.


Anyway, I'm "mathed out" for now, this is my bid on this whole issue, I'd love to read some input or constructive criticism. Hell, anything to solidify this or even throw it overboard and find an even better theory, as long as we find a conclusive answer.

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 3:58 PM.
#4009SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Paragos
Thanks for the test, Avitus.

I went through every line of your combat log. I saw two instances of double windfury procs, once at
19:24'20.135 and once at 19:35'26.243. It is important to note that the second occurance of the double windfury proc had NO SoC proc involved, so it was definitely not SoC which caused the double proc. I'd like to put forth that the windfury proccing itself bug does not necessarily mean windfury procs windfury 20% of the time. It could be due to timing or some switch not flipping to let the occasion double proc slip through.

As for your larger numbers, I agree that my current calculation of predicting expected results is not exactly right, and here is why.

Suppose RNG is being kind and you get more than average windfury procs. That is going to increase your overal SoC proc rate as well. The opposite is true for a lucky SoC rate increasing your windfury procs. Suppose you get lucky on both, which increases your rates for both and you get really high numbers for both. This would have a self-limiting factor if they couldn't chain proc. (I noticed almost invariably in your logs that if you got one, you got the other) So, one going well helps the other get closer to the expected average that my caluclations provide. The only time things go badly is if you get really unlucky on autoattack procs for both windfury and SoC. Neither one would bring the rate of the other closer to my calculations.

The possibilities for WF and SoC rates in comparison to mean are above/above, above/below, below/above, below/below. Three of the four possibilities are going to help increase the other, so you're more likely to get above my calculations than below.

I am sure there is some fancy statistical math to compensate for such things, but I have to be honest, that is way beyond my knowledge.

I still believe in the current hypothesis, but feel the calculations for average could use some math experts. However, the current model is not accurate and this one is a lot closer, so it wouldn't hurt to put it into rawr in the next release.
#4010SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Reebz
Hi all,

Very new Ret pally here, still only Level 65, but going hard!

I'm generally not a big fan of macros, but a Ret pally has so few abilities that are used, I thought it might be easy to whip one up for farming purposes.

Looking for feedback:

#showtooltip
/cast [nocombat] Seal of the Crusader
/cast [modifier:alt] [modifier:control] [combat] Seal of the Crusader; 
/castsequence reset=8/target [combat] Judgement, [combat] Seal of Command, [combat] Crusader Strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I think it is fairly explanatory, its intended to be a "spam" macro.

Hold ALT or CTRL whilst in combat to recast SotCru if you switch targets.
If you switch targets, the castsequence will reset.

My only concern is the macro CD is 8 seconds whilst Crusader Strike is 6.

Looking for testing and opinions, as I said I'm very new so feedback is welcome. I doubt this macro is raid DPS viable, but I'd love to hear your experiences!

Cheers.
#4011SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
That's a nice write-up there, Avitus. I don't have the time/will to to do a math post as well organized or thorough as that, but here's my 2 cents on the data set you collected.


Data, using 72 haste rating (4.7% haste) w/ 3.2 AS weapon
Normal swings: 590
SoC procs: 265
WF procs: 181


Base expected proc chance (model where WF and SoC don't affect each other)
SoC: 35%/37% (haste/no haste)
WF: 20%

Apparent proc chance
SoC: 265/590 = 45%
WF: 181/590 = 30.6%


I. Apparent proc chance if WF procs SoC, SoC procs WF
SoC: 265 / (590 + 181) = 34.4%
WF: 181 / (590 + 265) = 21.1%

II. Apparent proc chance if - WF proc'd from SoC can't proc SoC, (using non-hasted proc chance)
SoC: 265 / ( 590 + 181 * .63) = 265 / ( 590 + 114) = 37.6% (note: We'd be "aiming for" 35% if we expect the hasted proc chance)
WF: 21.1% (same as I; applying chain proc rule to WF->SoC->WF would increase the apparent proc chance)


At a glance, both models I and II are likely from this set of data. Let's examine the likelihood of either using the Std.Dev rules from before.

I. SoC swings - 771; WF swings - 855
Expected SoC (37%, non-hasted): 285
Std. Dev for SoC (non-hasted): 13.4
Expected SoC (35% hasted, for completeness): 270
Std. Dev for SoC (hasted): 13.2

Actual proc # is 1.5 SDs from expected for nonhasted SoC and around .4 SD from expected for hasted SoC.


Expected WF (20%): 171
Std. Dev: 11.7

Actual proc # is around 1 SD from expected WF proc #.


II. SoC swings - 704
Expected SoC (37%, non-hasted): 164
Std. Dev for SoC (non-hasted): 12.8
Expected SoC (35% hasted, for completeness): 246
Std. Dev for SoC (hasted): 12.7

Actual proc # is 0.1 SD from expected non-hasted SoC and 1.5 from expected for hasted SoC.


Summary:
Based on the multiple sets of WWS data we've collected so far, WF procs off ALL SoC attacks.

Based on all the data we've collected, SoC proc chance seems to be affected by WF. Looking only at this one data set. SoC either uses hasted proc chance and can chain proc (SoC->WF->SoC), OR it uses non-hasted proc chance and cannot chain proc.


I'm very sure there are better mathematical tools (student t test, some other funky stat stuff) for analyzing all of our data, but I'm not a math/statistics major and am busy with my other classes. = P
#4012SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Beta 14 posted!

DOWNLOAD: Rawr - Release: Rawr b14


Beta 14:
- Added the ProtWarr and Healadin models! These are our first versions of these models, so please report any bugs you find with them!
- Mac support! See the readme for details.
- Major improvements to the intelligence of the Optimizer
- Added a new feature in the Optimizer: Build Upgrade List. This feature will take longer than the normal Optimizer (so you'll want to run it at a lower thoroughness, most likely), but will produce a chart of how much value you could gain if you had each item that you don't already have available.
- Added a Direct Upgrades chart, which shows what the biggest upgrades for you would be, considering just direct upgrades, no other gear swaps. For a comprehensive upgrades evaluation, use the new Build Upgrade List feature of the optimizer.
- Significantly improved performance all across Rawr, especially in the Optimizer
- Added a Delete Duplicates function. By right clicking on an item or using the Item Editor, you can Delete Duplicates for an item, which will delete all gemmings of the item except for the one you selected, and any that are equipped.
- Reworked how Rawr stores calculation options. This means that when you load your characters created with previous versions of Rawr, the Options tab will be reset to default, please be sure to fill that out again.
- Rawr now correctly handles mainhand and offhand enchants, as appropriate by equipped items.
- Improved the loading performance of the Item Editor on successive loads. The first time you open it, it should be faster than before, and the second+ time should be nearly instant.
- Fixed a bug that made the Fill Sockets functionality of the Item Editor not work.
- Fixed a bug that made the chart render as a big red X occasionally.
- Made some changes that may help with the UI for users of high-DPI resolutions. High DPI is still not supported (as Windows' support for it is retard and broken), but this should help somewhat.
- Fixed a leak of control handles in the item selector, should improve performance and prevent crashes related to this.
- Fixed the Armor Penetration values of Imp/Expose Armor.
- Reloading the current character from the armory will now load enchants and talents, in addition to items.
- The Item Selector should no longer extend off the screen when there's room available, on very low resolution displays.
- Added support for loading characters from KR and TW realms.
- Load Upgrades from Armory will no longer create duplicates.
- Added some warnings to the Optimizer to help people use it properly (such as pointing out when you've forgotten to mark any choices in a slot as available). These can be disabled in the Options.

Rawr.Retribution Changes:

-Added a slider to choose bloodlust uptime %
-Added a slider to choose Drums of Battle/War uptime%
-Added a slider for target armor, lists bosses with that armor value
-Added a slider to choose the number of Ferocious Inspirations
-Added a slider to choose Expose Weakness AP value

Note: No change was made to SoC and WF mechanics at this time. Upon further review, a change will be made for B14.1
#4013SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
Are you sure we don't? Remember, offhand attacks for DW classes show up as 'swing' too, so your numbers are flattened. And MS warriors have Sword Specialization, which muddies the waters slightly there.
When I first looked at the numbers, I used SoB using paladins as a baseline - all the WWS parses linked then had 20~% proc rates for WF.
http://elitistjerks.com/729256-post3722.html

That said, I found something rather interesting when I checked recent WWS reports. Here are SoB parses that occurred after May 6.
Wow Web Stats


Vindus - WWS
118 swings, 25 WF procs (27%)

Gemini - WWS
121 swings, 18 WF procs ( 17%)

http://wowwebstats.com/3ciglfan5q25m?s=6818-7144&a=3
137 swings, 25 WF procs (22%)

Cancer - WWS (Korean, I may have misread this)
125 swings, 28 WF procs (29%)

WWS Loading...
109 swings, 24 WF procs (28%)

Zugzwang - WWS
122 swings, 24 WF procs (24%)


I don't know what to make of that, though there's a bias in my selection for top DPS reports (compared to the past 4 weeks). We also have other parses that indicate WF proc chances aren't out of ordinary:
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
Without Seal of Command
449 hits
68 Windfury
17.8% proc rate -1.05 Standard deviation off

With Seal of Command
490 hits
104 windfury
164 SoC
27.0% proc rate 3.44 Standard deviation off
18.9% proc rate (SoC included) -0.62 Standard deviation off
(emphasis added)
#4014SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Would you human pallies concede that Fiola's summary a few posts up is the final decision on the matter? If so, I will code it tonight for release in Rawr B14.1.
#4015SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Blackwater
Crazy question abot JOW

if you have three mobs, and you JOW each mob by a different pally, and you AOE said mobs, will the AOE'ers get JOWx3 (Since it is 3 seperate mobs)

Just wondering.

BW
#4016SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 frmorrison
You can safely add WF procs off ALL SoC attacks to Rawr.


Assuming JoW was on 3 AoEed mobs, you could get 3 procs of JoW.
#4017SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Would you human pallies concede that Fiola's summary a few posts up is the final decision on the matter? If so, I will code it tonight for release in Rawr B14.1.
There's no concession, Fiola is agreeing

And I can pretty much throw out the alternative theory (that SoC goes off base speed), since it's been proven multiple times that it doesn't if you run pure SoC tests (without WF) with haste gear, it remains at 7ppm.

What to code:

I think we're now all in agreement that both SoC and WF proc off eachother (though further results would solidify this more, so anyone reading, feel free to run a few tests and supply more data).

It also seems a high indication of chain procs.

What this means for coding: Just take the "calculation 2" from the mammoth post I made (with the test results) a few posts up and use that


Regarding the new Rawr: Very nice work

There's some things however that still seem to be missing off the lists (major cleanup of buffs tab, fixing all buffs that give spellhit/spellcrit, SoC libram working for SoB, Solarian Sapphire Battleshout, Trueshot aura).

Also it seems that Ferocious Inspiration got implemented wrong, it's 3% to "all" damage, not just physical attacks.

Anyway, I'll help with the coding as soon as I have more time (long vacation coming up in 2 weeks), also taking further specifics to PM/IM.

Cheers
#4018SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
The buffs tab is Rawr-wide, not specific to retribution. Hence, it will include all buffs that any rawr module needs. The solarian sapphire is something that is still being debated among the developers as to how to implement. I thought I fixed the libram thing, but I guess I just forgot. Trueshot aura I totally forgot about, let me get back to you to make sure its something that just I have to change, or is a program-wide effort.

As far as FI implementation being wrong, if its wrong now it was wrong before, all I did was replace a static number with a variable. I'll look into it, and we'll definitely talk regarding SoC/WF changes.
#4019SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
I've seen the buffs tab at least filtered (check Rawr:Cat, it has all the tanking stuff not listed), there should be somewhere where this can be done for Rawr: Ret.

Ferocious Inspiration, yea not laying blame or anything, just that I never went over Rawr: Cat and made sure everything worked there as I do with Rawr: Ret :P

Though on the other hand, it's not like they have any spell attacks in cat form (afaik), so it was working fine for them.


Hmm I might have to change my title, "Fear not! Quality assurance is here!" or something
#4020SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
The buffs tab is Rawr-wide, not specific to retribution.
No, it's filtered to just buffs relevant to Ret... I just checked, and all the code in CalculationsRetribution.HasReleventStats(stats) is commented out, and just 'return true' in its place, aka saying all buffs are relevant. Just need to switch that back to checking whether there are relevant stats for each buff.

Regarding FI... It's implemented correctly. FI really is 3% to *all* damage, not just physical. Works fine for hunters, warriors, mages, spriests, everyone.

Ferocious Inspiration <-- "all damage increased by 3%".
#4021SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Yea I'm retarded. I'll have that fixed too.

Sorry I'm still learning the code :p
#4022SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
There's no concession, Fiola is agreeing

And I can pretty much throw out the alternative theory (that SoC goes off base speed), since it's been proven multiple times that it doesn't if you run pure SoC tests (without WF) with haste gear, it remains at 7ppm.
Yeah, I was agreeing. Not asking for any concessions. X D


Final thoughts on haste/nonhaste:

Going to the other data set (no haste, 3.2 AS)
490 hits (Total; 386 normal swings)
104 windfury
164 SoC

Chain proc model (WF off all SoC, SoC off all WF, 37% SoC proc chance)
expected SoC = 490 * .37 = 181
SD = 10.7; actual is 1.6 SD away from expected
expected WF = (386 + 164) * .2 = 550 * .2 = 110
SD = 9.4; actual is 0.64 SD from expected

Non-haste model (WF off all SoC, SoC off of normal->WF, 37% SoC proc chance)
expected SoC = (386 + 104 * .63) * .37 = 167
SD = 10.3; actual is .3 SD from expected



Now for some other random thoughts.
Chain proc model haste scaling:   
hasted AS (hAS) = base AS / (1 + haste%) 
SoC hasted Proc Chance (hPC) =  hAS * 7/60
SoC expected rate = 60/hAS [hasted # attacks] * hPC * 1.2 [WF] 
= 60/hAS * hAS * 7 /60 * 1.2 
= 7 [PPM] * 1.2 
= 8.4 PPM
If chain proc model is true, we expect 8.4 PPM of SoC + WF regardless of gear level and amount of haste. (we assume SoC does not scale with haste, so PPM stays constant, and WF's boost to PPM is static)

SoC scales with haste model:
hasted AS = base AS / (1 + haste%) 
SoC Proc Chance (PC) = base AS * 7 / 60
SoC expected rate = 60/hAS [hasted # attacks] * (1 * PC [normal attacks] + 0.2 * (1-PC) * PC [WF attacks that did not proc from SoC]) 
= 60/hAS * (1.2 * PC - PC * 0.2 * PC) 
= [# attacks] * (1+haste%) * (1.2 * PC - PC * 0.2 * PC)  
= 7 PPM * 1.2 + 7 PPM *1.2 * (haste%) - 7PPM * (1+haste%) * (0.2 * PC)
From inspection, we have the
[bonus procs from WF] + [bonus procs from haste & WF] - [the # of SoC->WF->SoC procs that were included in the previous terms, but which we do not expect in this model]


damage difference between the 2 models
7 PPM *1.2 * (haste%) - 7PPM * (1+haste%) * (0.2 * PC)
[bonus procs from haste & WF] - [the # of SoC->WF->SoC procs]

8.4 PPM (7 PPM * 1.2) is in both equations and cancel out, leaving us with the two terms above.



Say we have a Cat's Edge (3.5 AS, 40.8%). Then the equation simplifies to
8.4 PPM * (haste%) - 0.57 PPM * (1 + haste%)
= 7.83 PPM * haste% - 0.57 PPM

At 0% haste, damage difference is 0.57 PPM - Model 1 says we can get WF + SoC + WF procs (chain proc), whereas Model 2 says we don't.

At 7% haste, the damage of both models is equal.

At higher haste levels, the damage of the 2nd model is higher. (Because 1st model says SoC is static, 2nd model says SoC scales with haste)



SUMMARY:
At <7% haste, the "SoC scales with haste, cannot proc twice" model expects less damage. At 7+% haste, the "SoC does not scale with haste, but can double proc" model expects less damage. Given ambiguity between which of the 2 models is correct, you won't go wrong by conservatively under-estimating your damage.


And thanks, now I'm late for class. X D


Edit: polished conclusion. 7% haste is around 105 haste rating, correct?

Last edited by Fiola : Today at 1:10 PM.
#4023SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Trakor
Blessings:

I find that I personally need wisdom or I'll run into mana issues, despite poting. I need salv or I'll risk pulling aggro or having to stop dpsing in order to not pull aggro. Having mana issues or being threat caped, reduces my dmg. So I usually have these 2 up. But then I miss out on Might and/or Kings, which also reduces my dmg.

If your raid have a max of 3 pallies, which blessings do you get? What if only 2 pallies are around? All physical dpsers get might and kings and I somehow, find myself not having them most of the time.



This btw, brings me to another thing I'd like to talk about: Inscriptions. It seems each toon will have 4 inscriptions available to change his spells and abilities. Blizz said they want to help ret pallies with our mana issues. My guess is that they would affect mana regen/consumption (something like what shammies have), soc (hopefully back to 100% dmg), cs (reduced cd) and possible something related to consecration or sotc/jotc. What do you guys think?
#4024SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Gevlin
on a boss you shouldn't really have mana issues considering JoW will always be up (kings or might, to each their own). on trash i'll give myself BoW because most mobs aren't getting a judgement and i'll end most pulls autoattacking. kings is around 150ap and 1% crit. hard to turn that down for a boss.
#4025SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fadaar
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
Blessings:

I find that I personally need wisdom or I'll run into mana issues, despite poting. I need salv or I'll risk pulling aggro or having to stop dpsing in order to not pull aggro. Having mana issues or being threat caped, reduces my dmg. So I usually have these 2 up. But then I miss out on Might and/or Kings, which also reduces my dmg.

If your raid have a max of 3 pallies, which blessings do you get? What if only 2 pallies are around? All physical dpsers get might and kings and I somehow, find myself not having them most of the time.



This btw, brings me to another thing I'd like to talk about: Inscriptions. It seems each toon will have 4 inscriptions available to change his spells and abilities. Blizz said they want to help ret pallies with our mana issues. My guess is that they would affect mana regen/consumption (something like what shammies have), soc (hopefully back to 100% dmg), cs (reduced cd) and possible something related to consecration or sotc/jotc. What do you guys think?
If you're raiding as 3 paladins, do this:

Pally #1 throws BoKings on everyone
Pally #2 throws BoSalv on everyone (along with BoWis on Hunters and BoL on tanks)
Pally #3 (you) throws BoWis/Might on everyone and deal with 10 minute buffs accordingly (ie enh shaman[s], feral druid[s], and yourself)

Keeping the buffs perfect really doesn't matter in your case until bosses, otherwise I wouldn't bother with the 10 min buffs unless you're able to keep track of them.

Also what Gevlin said. Have another paladin judge Wisdom at the start of the fight.
#4026SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Agusta
Hi, I've been reading here for some time now even if I'm not (yet ?) a ret paladin but as you were talking about the benediction, I enter de debate.

I was wondering on the good benediction combinaison and what I read confirm my doubts.

With the proposition from Fadaar (retribution paladin doing Might / Wisdom, Pally#3), all the mana user won't have the Improved Wisdom. Honneslty, that's not really good. But, the other possibilities don't please me either :
- If the ret do the job of Pally #1 (always from the exemple above) : he needs a 5/11/45 template, what shoud that be ?
- If the ret do the job of Pally #2 (always from the exemple above) : why bother with Improved Might and what to do with the points then.

So right now, I'm gathering stuff were I can, (Hyjal / BT / heroic / crafts ...) but I'm also thinking about templates and role in the raid. At this point, this optimisation of both benediction and template is the main problem in my reflexion.

I may have missed something of importance (or maybe a small one), so please, can you tell me if I waiste my time on this ?
#4027SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
It's really not hard for a holy paladin to get Imp BoM, in fact if the ret pally needs precision I'd argue its harder for them to get it than the holy paladin.
#4028SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kuthumii
I am leveling my paladin right now and am looking around for good guides on prot and ret to help me learn the class.

I was talking with a friend and he said down ranking SoC is better than using max rank. From the charts on the first page, my understanding of them at least, it shows that you lower your dps by doing this. The field for 'Benefit' has a (+) while the benefit field for rank 6 has a (-). Does this mean it is good or bad to down rank. (Please forgive my lack of knowledge)
#4029SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Gevlin
I usually end up setting up buffs for the raid, and this is how it usually works to get the best of both worlds of imp might/wis.

Pally #1) Imp Might/Salv/Light (i'll do light on pallies, single might myself)
Pally #2) Imp Wisdom/Salv/Light
Pally #3) Kings

Its not all that complex and if everyone is using Pally Power, there is nothing to explain. you could teach a monkey to buff with that mod.
#4030SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Agusta
Alrigth, so you use a combination a bit more complex than the standard on (with only Holy Paladins)

About Holy paladin blessing Imp. Migth, thats what we do. As you said, it's pretty easy to get. We have all our paladin having it exept 2, to be sure to always have one paladin who can bless it. (wow, not sure this is clear but I'm late for raiding :P)

And yep, PP helps a lot for dispathing benediction.
#4031SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Regarding FI... It's implemented correctly. FI really is 3% to *all* damage, not just physical. Works fine for hunters, warriors, mages, spriests, everyone.
I know it's all damage, however the FI currently in Rawr is only working for physical = wrong implementation.

It says "3% physical dmg" when you hover over it. It does not increase SoC/JoC/SoB/JoB/Consecration/Exorcism damage currently.

Check it out, I'm sure there's confusion somewhere.
#4032SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I know it's all damage, however the FI currently in Rawr is only working for physical = wrong implementation.

It says "3% physical dmg" when you hover over it. It does not increase SoC/JoC/SoB/JoB/Consecration/Exorcism damage currently.

Check it out, I'm sure there's confusion somewhere.
Ahhh, OK, I gotcha. Will get that fixed for b14.1. Thanks.
#4033SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
If chain proc model is true, we expect 8.4 PPM of SoC + WF regardless of gear level and amount of haste. (we assume SoC does not scale with haste, so PPM stays constant, and WF's boost to PPM is static)
Emphasis mine. This is actually "very" interesting that you write that, here's why:

If you go back a few pages, before doing any calculations, before we were even trying to find a theory, simply based on observation, A bunch of us had said that after going over so many endgame ret WWS logs it seems weird that SoC proc rate seems to be so high. Just by feel (no calculations done) I threw out that number "8.5ppm" which seems to be the average most people have.


Now you've reached almost the same number (8.4) which we previously reached by observation through calculation. I guess this is proof pretty much that this has to be correct.


Regarding haste: The 8.5 number experienced through observation seemed to come from many different logs wearing a lot of different gear.

I have 124 passive haste rating on my gear, putting in 1x bloodlust, haste pots, DST, and a full Drums of Battle rotation, I have the equivalent average of around 348.56 haste rating (according to Rawr). I've had the same ~8.4ppm in the tries where I had 2 bloodlusts (heroisms),

I'm pretty sure others have different amounts. This is again another point against SoC off base speed (and rather the increase of ppm coming from WF chain procs and proccing off hasted weapon speed). Think it's pretty clear now where we're at


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
7% haste is around 105 haste rating, correct?
7% haste is 110.32 rating.

105 rating = 6.6624365482233502538071065989848% haste

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 6:15 PM.
#4034SourcePosted on <=2.0.0noth
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
I usually end up setting up buffs for the raid, and this is how it usually works to get the best of both worlds of imp might/wis.

Pally #1) Imp Might/Salv/Light (i'll do light on pallies, single might myself)
Pally #2) Imp Wisdom/Salv/Light
Pally #3) Kings

Its not all that complex and if everyone is using Pally Power, there is nothing to explain. you could teach a monkey to buff with that mod.
We go:

Pally 1 (prot) kings - he tanks, so we don't make him do 10-mins, 'cuz they just wouldn't get done.
Pally 2 (holy with both imp blessings) wis/might - he 10-min mights myself & the enhance shammie if we don't have a 4th.
Pally 3 (me) - salvs, overwrie the tanks salvs with something appropriate, wis the hunters
Pally 4 (a spare holy if we're carrying one that night) light - 30 min might on pally, shaman, druid.

Picking up imp might as holy isn't that big a deal, and the intersection of folks who need wis & might is low, which reduces the 10-min buffing. YMMV, and Pally Power is a god-send.

I dropped down to 3 in benediction lately, and I'm not feeling like it's hurting me terribly much. Having full imp might means that I can do the hunter might & let the holy guy do wis & the hunters get both imp buffs, which is nice.
#4035SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Paragos
I still believe both Windfury and SoC can only happen once per normal swing, excluding the random weird windfury proccing windfury bug.

By that theroy, I calculate the proc rate on SoC should average about 7.83ppm with a 3.5 speed attack. It fluctuates very slightly with haste gear. A 2.5 speed attack rate gives 7.9ppm.

I believe all the questionable 8.5ppm were posted by people asking why it was so high. I haven't gone back to check whether this is true. It could very well be a lucky night. Were most of those Brut fights? 6 minutes.

Here is Teron for me last night. WWS Teron
Windfury 36% proc rate
SoC 4'24 second fight, 29 procs or 6.59ppm.
Character sheet said 40.92% crit chance.
SoC crite rate was 20%.

I know some people were questioning CS crit rate a few pages back, but I went and checked my logs and they generally matched for a full raid.

Bad RNG or Good RNG or just RNG?
#4036SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Orodlin
Crusader strike with Seal of the crusader 2.4.2

Hey guys long time reader, i just saw this on mmo-champion and Im wondering how this affects everyones rotations, and what this means for mana conservation etc.

This is under the 2.4.2 notes on the site


Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
Personally, my rotation is sketchy as is, with at some points i have some down time, but at others im stretched pretty close on my global cool downs. Unless Im getting wisdom as well as having the seal up, im chain drinking mana potions and still burning through my mana. So how will this extra seal up time affect our dps, will we have to swing, seal*crusader*, CS, Seal*blood/Command* then judge? Im just not sure how this will play out regarding global cool-downs and mana efficiency because 40% CS damage is a stupid increase, but how is it going to affect the rotation timer and our need for intelligence in our gear? any input would help to put me at ease.

Edit confirmed it on the PTR patch notes site
WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

Last edited by Orodlin : Yesterday at 7:54 PM.
#4037SourcePosted on <=2.0.0antilog
Originally Posted by Orodlin View Post
Hey guys long time reader, i just saw this on mmo-champion and Im wondering how this affects everyones rotations, and what this means for mana conservation etc.

This is under the 2.4.2 notes on the site
Don't do it. It's a tarp. I believe it was confirmed a few pages back that there is no actual 40% crusader strike damage increase and that it was just making crusader strike do the amount of damage it is supposed to.

Edit: I'm wondering where I can find a site that has boss information reguarding armor? I was looking at wowwiki and didn't see anything. Where else should I look?

Last edited by antilog : Yesterday at 8:38 PM.
#4038SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by antilog View Post
Edit: I'm wondering where I can find a site that has boss information reguarding armor? I was looking at wowwiki and didn't see anything. Where else should I look?
[RAID] Boss armor values, post 8 has most of it.

It might be a good idea to put this on WoWwiki. I can do it later tonight.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 11:16 PM.
#4039SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kuthumii
Originally Posted by Kuthumii View Post
I was talking with a friend and he said down ranking SoC is better than using max rank. From the charts on the first page, my understanding of them at least, it shows that you lower your dps by doing this. The field for 'Benefit' has a (+) while the benefit field for rank 6 has a (-). Does this mean it is good or bad to down rank. (Please forgive my lack of knowledge)
Anyone mind helping me with that? Or maybe a page number in this post that it is on?
#4040SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
It is more dps to use max Rank SoC... but the judgement is so weak that if you do have mana issues you can probably afford to downrank. Have to double check with one of the alliance posters, but thats the quick answer from a semi-informed blood elf.
#4041SourcePosted on <=2.0.0thedopefishlives
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
It is more dps to use max Rank SoC... but the judgement is so weak that if you do have mana issues you can probably afford to downrank. Have to double check with one of the alliance posters, but thats the quick answer from a semi-informed blood elf.
From my understanding and from playing with bellator's spreadsheet, the proc from SoC is the same across all ranks - that is, it's always 70% weapon damage. Downranking SoC will cost you dps from the judgment. Depending on how big of a percentage that dps is, I'd imagine for better-geared paladins it wouldn't be such an issue.
#4042SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
It's not, but its still a dps loss to some degree. How much isn't my point.
#4043SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 frmorrison
The "best" build for a PvE Holy Pally is 42/14/5, getting all imp Blessings and 6% less damage taken.


Since you get 80% mana back using max rank SoC vs rank 1 SoC, it is only about 40-50 more mana to use max rank. The first page was the 50% mana back number.

Although that will add up over time, I am pretty sure it is better to drop Consecrate over using rank 1 SoC.
#4044SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Durandal
Thoughts on this dps cycle?

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...stingseals.jpg

I used the spread sheet cycle from post #1 but the speed of the weapon is only 3.0?
#4045SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Petersen
Okey, so I retested a little, and my results are much the same.

My original goal was to see what all this new SotC business was really about first hand, so I went to the Deeprun Tram to try out a few things. I didn't get very far without incident.

Using gear and spec: 70 Human Paladin

No helm so no meta gem contamination.
No gloves for no 5% CS damage.
One handed weapon to reduce skewing from 2-handed weapon specialization.
Level 1 weapon used to reduce the range of possible damage values.

Target: Deeprun Rats



First I verified my unbuffed white swing damage at 229-232. (Macro got rid of Disdain and Vengeance procs between rats)

Next I tried to verify my unbuffed CS damage, but found my range at 233-235 (this is seriously irritating to test, from what I can tell, the CS is the 'first' attack the system processes when you attack from non-combat with a Crusader Strike, and even if this kills the target it also processes a white attack, but the white attack shows up first in the combat log (though if the white attack crits, the vengeance does not seem to apply to the CS, but if the CS crits, vengeance does seem to apply to the white attack). In any case, if either one crits I'm not comfortable using that CS data and with an experimental crit rate of around 40% on these things...)


Theoretically, with a white damage range of 229-232, my CD range should be 251.9-255.2. Can anyone explain why my results are showing CS doing such low bonus damage? I suspect it may have something to do with the level 1 sword I'm using.



EDIT: I just remembered CS is an instant attack and therefore normalized, this may well be the cause of the variance.

Last edited by Petersen : Today at 2:06 PM.
#4046SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Quepaso
I was doing some brief testing, and here's what i found:

on average, with Seal of Crusader up i was hitting for (roughly) 200 more dmg w/ crusader strike

on average, with Seal of Crusader up i was hitting for (roughly) 500 more dmg critical w/ crusader strike

This was done self buffed, S3 gloves on for extra crusader strike dmg. Need to plug into spreadsheet to find out how this will run over time compared to Seal of Command. At first glance i was a bit dissapointed, but we'll see.
#4047SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Astinus
Originally Posted by noth View Post
We go:

Pally 1 (prot) kings - he tanks, so we don't make him do 10-mins, 'cuz they just wouldn't get done.
Pally 2 (holy with both imp blessings) wis/might - he 10-min mights myself & the enhance shammie if we don't have a 4th.
Pally 3 (me) - salvs, overwrie the tanks salvs with something appropriate, wis the hunters
Pally 4 (a spare holy if we're carrying one that night) light - 30 min might on pally, shaman, druid.

Picking up imp might as holy isn't that big a deal, and the intersection of folks who need wis & might is low, which reduces the 10-min buffing. YMMV, and Pally Power is a god-send.

I dropped down to 3 in benediction lately, and I'm not feeling like it's hurting me terribly much. Having full imp might means that I can do the hunter might & let the holy guy do wis & the hunters get both imp buffs, which is nice.
We have just 3 paladins on our raids. Tank, Ret, Holy.

The Holy and Tank both have kings. The holy has Imp Wis but no Imp Might. I have taken imp might because of this. The tanking paladin wants BoSanc so he cant kings the paladin group. I cant figure out how to get the paladins Imp Blessing of Wis.

We generally do it like this.
Tank Pally - Salvation - he 10 min BoSanc's himself.
Ret Pally - Wisdom - I 10min salvation myself.
Holy Pally - Kings

The only way for me to figure out how we can get imp wisdoms in the paladin group is for me to pick up kings. I can get the imp wisdom on just the holy paladin if we do it like this.

Tank Pally - Kings- he 10 min BoSanc's himself.
Ret Pally - Might - I 10 min wisdom the tank.
Holy Pally - Wisdom - He 10m salv to ret, 10 min kings to tank.

Otherwise I just cant figure out how to get imp wisdom on both the tank and holy paladin when the tank wants to use BoSanc.
#4051SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2akdjr
Originally Posted by Durandal View Post
Thoughts on this dps cycle?

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...stingseals.jpg

I used the spread sheet cycle from post #1 but the speed of the weapon is only 3.0?
I'm not so sure about seal twisting as a viable PvE dps cycle. Assuming you managed to perfect the cycle and never mistime your casts of SoB and SoC, you will be expending about 85 mana per second (500 mana or so every 6 seconds using CS, rank 1 SoC, and SoB). My buffed mana pool is around 6500 at the moment, which means I'd be OOM in about 1 minute. Even less with Sunwell gear. A 2400 mana potion gives you around 28 more seconds of the cycle. This certainly does not seem viable to me, even with judgement of wisdom on the target, but this is only at first glance with some very rough math.

Now assuming mana is not an issue, there is still the factor of latency and how easy it can be to mess up the cycle depending on various boss mechanics/movement. I'm hoping some of the other posters here with more experience modeling dps cycles will chime in their thoughts on this. Personally, it doesn't seem worth it to me.
#4052SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sterlin
Something is wrong with macros

Avitus Castsequence macro isn't working?

what is up?

Never mind ... I first thought it was a bug with 2.4.2 , but it started to work again after Akima ... LOL
#4053SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Meuble
Thyvene on french boards: We don't plan to change the paladin racials, despite the opinion of players on that subject.

loloutch. No SoB guys :/



Edit: Well, I couldn't agree more, but it pretty much seems to be blizz politics there. "See, we put this carrot on a stick and, well, you're gonna pay us to chase it. For months dude. For freaking months".

And that's "just" pve.. /sigh

Last edited by Meuble : 05/14/08 at 6:16 AM.
#4054SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
I'm willing to bet the reason they're not doing this is because they are either planning to either share the seals right before WOTLK or give a superior seal to replace both SoC and SoB in the level 80 ret tree.

What they fail to realize is that as much as that will be nice then, it's no excuse to let us hanging throughout all of Sunwell and the remainder of TBC.
#4055SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Bellvm
Seal of the Crusader 40% increase

The new update has just granted Crusder Strike an ability to have have 40% more damage when Seal of the Crusader is active.

Does anyone have any data to know if the extra 40% is included in the critical strike chance of Crusader Strike?

And has anyone looked at the dps cycles spread sheet to know if a new combination will be efficient?

I have started using Consecration, Seal of the Crusader, Crusader Strike, Seal of Command, Judgement, and then repeat the cycle.
#4056SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Just as a heads up, I have modeled WF proccing off SoC as requested, Rawr 14.1 should be released shortly with many of the fixes requested (some are out of my hands, and the filtered buff list I need more time with).
#4057SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dr303
Increase DPS

Im raiding as retribution paladin, have rather decent gear
The World of Warcraft Armory

Problem is that i cant get over 600 dps, im not sure im doing all things right.
Is there like a uber way to increase dps with a good macro or something.

Please help me become a high dps'er

Im thinking of upgrading my hammer to the blade of harbingers to improve dps but
im not sure that will help me shoot up in the dps list.

Any ideas welcome
#4058SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
With that gear, even without a DPS group 800 dps should be easy enough to get. Are you using a judge/reseal macro?
#4059SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2CaptBooyah
Originally Posted by dr303 View Post
Im raiding as retribution paladin, have rather decent gear
The World of Warcraft Armory

Problem is that i cant get over 600 dps, im not sure im doing all things right.
Is there like a uber way to increase dps with a good macro or something.

Please help me become a high dps'er

Im thinking of upgrading my hammer to the blade of harbingers to improve dps but
im not sure that will help me shoot up in the dps list.

Any ideas welcome
I imagine the axe will be around 80 dps increase for you.. s3 gloves will also be a huge upgrade =P

Check out the dps cycles on front page and try to keep that rotation as tight as possible...

Other than that, without a shaman in group to drop WF totems, prepare to be mediocre for a while longer... oh yeh, complain to blizzard about not getting a good ret seal

Spout! Get in the water!
#4060SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dr303
Ive been using this one click macro (dont have access to the macro here but it was a really long macro with judgements and reseals and CS). If it will help ill post what macro i have when i get home
#4061SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by dr303 View Post
Im thinking of upgrading my hammer to the blade of harbingers to improve dps but
im not sure that will help me shoot up in the dps list.
For melee dps classes, a weapon is usually the best upgrade, your case is no exception.

Use consumables, such as 20 hit/strength food (hit is better until 94 hit rating on bosses), use some sort of Battle elixir or Flask, use mana potions, and if you don't have Windfury remember to temp enchant your weapon with something. The adamanite stones should work best, and anything on your weapon is better than nothing.
#4062SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dr303
im using this spam click macro

/castsequence reset=target Crusader Strike, Seal of Command, Judgement, Seal of Command, Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command, Judgement, Seal of Command

is this totally crap or very good dps macro?
#4063SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
its total crap. you have 2 judgements between crusader strikes first off, even though judgement is an 8s CD and CS is 6secs? make a /cast Judgement /cast Seal of Command macro and then you can be a 2 button dpser instead of just one.....while doing close to 200 dps more.
#4064SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by CaptBooyah View Post
oh yeh, complain to blizzard about not getting a good ret seal
You know, with all the ninja buffs and perks SoC has, I'm not even sure its that much worse than SoB anymore. I was looking at the dps change adding in the WF proccing off SoC (yes avitus, I got your forum PM and fixed it), and I have to say the dps difference is quickly shrinking, not to mention the fact that extra JoW procs off SoC means way more mana for you guys.

I should start a movement to QQ about SoC
#4065SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
You know, with all the ninja buffs and perks SoC has, I'm not even sure its that much worse than SoB anymore. I was looking at the dps change adding in the WF proccing off SoC (yes avitus, I got your forum PM and fixed it), and I have to say the dps difference is quickly shrinking, not to mention the fact that extra JoW procs off SoC means way more mana for you guys.

I should start a movement to QQ about SoC
yeah, and spiritual attunement doesn't give mana back right? each seal has a benefit there. and what about when you don't get WF? all these so-called "ninja buffs" to SoC don't even matter. i don't think mathematically there is anyway for SoC to be on par with SoB unless they change the way it scales (or doesn't) with haste...i.e. not going to happen.
#4066SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dr303
Gevlin:

Soz for being noobish but is that the only thing i need in those macros, coz im not a wizz on macros, the last one i got from a friend could u possibly write down each macros and how i really should use it

thanks in advance
#4067SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Shalymar
Looking at the Rawr v14, the ranged item shows the “Libram of Divine Judgement” as the best item for this slot even though I selected Seal of Blood under options. I take it this is a bug.
#4068SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
Originally Posted by dr303 View Post
Gevlin:

Soz for being noobish but is that the only thing i need in those macros, coz im not a wizz on macros, the last one i got from a friend could u possibly write down each macros and how i really should use it

thanks in advance
i use two macros.

Judgement:
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command

Crusader Strike:
/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike

i then have consecrate rank 1,4,and 6 bound, and max rank exorcism and work those into my rotation as the situation and mana allows. i'm not going to get into dps cycles because they have been covered EXTENSIVELY in this thread. one button macros are for hunters and lazy players. don't use them.
#4069SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dr303
lol, thanks alot mate and all the other feedbacks i got
#4070SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
one button macros are for bad hunters and lazy players. don't use them.
Fixed. Your original post left no distinction, hunters and lazy are synonomous.
#4071SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
that is a more than valid point zurm.

while i'm around for now hanging out, i was wondering if anybody has considered forgoing drums of battle the 30s prior to heroism, and instead stacking drums of battle and drums of war with heroism. at least in my mind, it seems that 60ap will beat an extra 80 haste at that point.
#4072SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Doubtful. Most classes pop cooldowns during bloodlust, meaning more haste would further empower those cooldowns. I can't think of a situation in SWP at this point where Drums of War would ever beat Drums of Battle.
#4073SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
what classes have a fixed scaling ability they burn? very few people at your/our gear level use "on use" items. everything people pop are % modifiers (deathwish, avenging wrath, etc). I suppose, however, that just at a base full buff, that extra 80 haste will always be greater than another 60 ap.
#4074SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Without writing a mathematical proof, I'm going to try to explain this. Bloodlust is simply a haste effect. Generally speaking, in bloodlust a damage increasing buff will be more useful than another haste buff, because the haste buffs don't stack per se, but rather add. However, when you have the option of both, using something like AW is such a significant damage increase by default that another 60 ap (less than 80 after AW) will stil not be as good as 80 more haste at 30% damage.

Makes sense? I suppose at some point I could do the math, but in my mind there is no way that kind of stacking you suggested would yield more dps... at least for a blood elf. Might be different for alliance but you have to keep in mind its probably still better to get Drums of Battle for the rogues and warriors.
#4075SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
yeah, and spiritual attunement doesn't give mana back right? each seal has a benefit there. and what about when you don't get WF? all these so-called "ninja buffs" to SoC don't even matter.
The damage from Blood is pretty low and in raids you likely are getting JoL to heal you (which doesn't proc attunement). The extra JoW procs from Command is better than the the extra healing gained from using Blood.

If a Ret Pally doesn't have WF, it is better to drop the Pally for another dps class, it is a lot of dps lost.


Buffs to SoC do matter, since Alliance is not getting a new Seal or a new Seal until Wrath.
#4076SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If a Ret Pally doesn't have WF, it is better to drop the Pally for another dps class, it is a lot of dps lost.
sigh, they make me go in the tank group for brutallus to run devo aura....i guess i get GoA, SoE, and LotP, but yeah, doing 1300 dps or so isn't all that fun.

zurm, the point isn't having ap instead of haste, its having both when all % modifiers are up.

two scenarios:

80 haste + normal buffs for 30s, and 80 haste + heroism/avenging wrath for 30s
OR
normal buffs for 30s, and 80haste + 60 ap + heroism/avenging wrath for 30s

which one leads to more total damage done in that 1 minute window?
#4077SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Exemplar
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
sigh, they make me go in the tank group for brutallus to run devo aura....i guess i get GoA, SoE, and LotP, but yeah, doing 1300 dps or so isn't all that fun.
Gevlin - no Holy paladins in your raid? They should have Imp Devo Aura and have no problem providing it to your MT.

Losing a Conc Aura < losing Sanct Aura and WF.
#4078SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The damage from Blood is pretty low and in raids you likely are getting JoL to heal you (which doesn't proc attunement). The extra JoW procs from Command is better than the the extra healing gained from using Blood.
Recoil damage regen is lower, but the difference is about 8 Mp5 running some rough math with Zurm's last WWS of a Brut kill for examples (I'll type it out here if you really want it). Not enough to say "ZOMG SoC >>>>>>> SoB!". SoC is still a worse seal in every other respect, that 8 Mp5 will give you a whopping 576 mana on a 6 minute Brut fight, enough for 2 more Rank VI Consecrations in place of of rank IV.

Not to mention the regen from SoC/JoW procs is completely static whereas the regen via recoil scales with Haste, Attack Power and Critical Strike rating.
#4079SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
yeah....except they qq alot about mana problems and not having a shadow priest on brut. plus we ran 3 rogues 1 war 1enh 1 ret. normally the extra rogue goes in the GoA group with the huntards and feral, but we give that to tanks on brut, and they also "need" devo. so i essentially get pigeonholed into that. we have the dps regardless so its a moot point to argue about it with anybody if there is a dead boss at the end of the night.

edit: in response to Exemplar
#4080SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Handled
Originally Posted by noth View Post
You'd think so, but with all the off-specs, it's still a chore. :shrug: It's more of a discussion of who has to spec imp might/wis/kings I think. For what it's worth, our prot pally hasn't asked to be given sanct yet, and my holy one loves me enough to spec imp might, so we have some flexibility.
Haven't been theorycrafting and missed a lot of pages but this is a no brainer for me.

Lazy Paladins will never be able to setup proper buffs, They are lazy and I see them every day the ones who you have to tell 15 times that the Wisdom Paladin needs to salv the Enhancement Shaman and the Kings Paladin needs to salv the Ret Paladin.

I hate lazy Raiders.
#4081SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2yamamoto
Hey, guys. I've recently begun reading these boards to better myself as a Ret Paladin. Currently, I do not use any sort of macros for Ret in a raiding environment. Could someone enlighten me to some of the more basic/necessary Macros that are needed or point me to a thread that already has them listed or a page on this thread? I hope I'm asking this in the right forum thread.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
#4082SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Mountie
I'm usually the type to try and do things for myself but I could really use some help here. If anyone wants to take a look over my log and has any suggestions or advice for doing better I could really use it. There's only two of us in the group with drums and I slightly mistimed AWrath+haste pot and they ran 3 seconds over the end of bloodlust. I also forgot to re-apply elixir of demonslaying late in the fight which really sucked since this was a 1% wipe. But, it was just one of those nights where you one shot stuff one week and wipe a tonne the next.

Kikoku: Wow Web Stats
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm just not sure if I can do any better than I am, but I feel like my dps really isn't as high as a lot of other people here and I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for such a great thread over the past 6 months or so
#4083SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gevlin
Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
I'm usually the type to try and do things for myself but I could really use some help here. If anyone wants to take a look over my log and has any suggestions or advice for doing better I could really use it. There's only two of us in the group with drums and I slightly mistimed AWrath+haste pot and they ran 3 seconds over the end of bloodlust. I also forgot to re-apply elixir of demonslaying late in the fight which really sucked since this was a 1% wipe. But, it was just one of those nights where you one shot stuff one week and wipe a tonne the next.

Kikoku: Wow Web Stats
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm just not sure if I can do any better than I am, but I feel like my dps really isn't as high as a lot of other people here and I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for such a great thread over the past 6 months or so
i would say more than anything its just a gear difference. 1750 dps is very respectable. you have sub 30% crit and under 1900 ap unbuffed. if you look at people pulling close to 2k they have significantly more stats. i haven't parsed through your combat log yet, but at first glance it looks to be about what i'd expect.
#4084SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Astinus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If a Ret Pally doesn't have WF, it is better to drop the Pally for another dps class, it is a lot of dps lost.
I'm an end of T4 beginning T5 Retribution paladin and we do not have an enhancement shaman. Our melee group consists of 3 rogues, 1 war, 1 ret paladin. My damage done is generally number 1 or number 2 out of the melee group on our progression stuff. Yet I have recently been told that if we do get an Enhancement shaman I am getting the boot from that group. The 2% damage I am giving the group isn't enough to keep me in there? I feel like I am being repressed. "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" What fuel do I have to argue my case that I should be in that group instead of the 3rd rogue?

If you want to look:

SSC: WWS
Gruul/Mag: WWS

Last edited by Astinus : 05/14/08 at 5:51 PM.
#4085SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Mountie
ugh, double edged sword. Good to know I'm doing ok, bad to know there might not be much more I can do. Somewhat frustrating if it's just the gear, a few stats here and there really adds up, eh.

Thanks Gevlin
#4086SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Ysabelle
Originally Posted by yamamoto View Post
Hey, guys. I've recently begun reading these boards to better myself as a Ret Paladin. Currently, I do not use any sort of macros for Ret in a raiding environment. Could someone enlighten me to some of the more basic/necessary Macros that are needed or point me to a thread that already has them listed or a page on this thread? I hope I'm asking this in the right forum thread.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Blood

/use Haste Potion
/cast Avenging Wrath

/cast Crusader Strike
/startattack

All you will ever need.

Not much to it for Ret.

Last edited by Ysabelle : 05/14/08 at 10:36 PM.
#4087SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
The only difference from the above (other than the SoC in place of SoB) is in my Avenging Wrath macro, since I'm still using an on-use trinket.

/cast Avenging Wrath
/use 14
#4088SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fadaar
One conundrum I've sort of backed myself into is trinkets. Shard of Contempt is obviously going to be my #1 choice no matter what (unless I somehow get enough expertise elsewhere to cap out as a human using a mace/sword). However, my second trinket slot continues to baffle me on what I should actually do with that slot.

On the one hand I can put a Berserker's Call in there, assuming I can get the stupid thing to drop. On the other hand, I can leave my Assassin's Alchemist Stone in there. Choice might seem pretty cut and dry, but there's a catch -- potions. With the alch stone (on fights like Brutallus) I can manage to go back and forth between haste potions and mana potions by popping a haste potion toward the beginning (say 10 to 15 seconds in when sunders, 3 stacks of Vengeance, and so forth are up) and right around the two minute mark my mana deficit gets above 3000 mana.

So here's my question: in terms of raw dps and with proper timing (ie maximizing the potential of a haste potion), which is better for a fight like Brutallus? Using the combination I currently have (Shard + Alch Stone) or swapping for Berserker's Call and using mana potions more often?
#4089SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
So here's my question: in terms of raw dps and with proper timing (ie maximizing the potential of a haste potion), which is better for a fight like Brutallus? Using the combination I currently have (Shard + Alch Stone) or swapping for Berserker's Call and using mana potions more often?

Assassin's Alchemist's Stone + Fel Mana Potions will always give you better performance than Berserker's Call. Where it gets tricky is where Dragonspine Trophy + Haste Potions and DMC:C + Haste Potions rate.


Regarding macros, this is what I use for PvE:

SoC macro (alternates as SoR macro if I switch a shield on, helps for frequent respecting/role switching):

/startattack
/castsequence [equipped:Shields] reset=30/alt Seal of Righteousness, Judgement; [equipped:Two-Hand] reset=30/alt Seal of Command, Judgement
CS macro with startattack (helps to avoid you ever being idle):

#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike
Multi-rank consecration macro (you can tailor your consecration use depending on mana status):

/cast [modifier:shift] Consecration(Rank 4); [modifier:alt] Consecration(Rank 1); Consecration(Rank 6)

Last edited by Avitus : 05/15/08 at 7:00 AM.
#4090SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Rawr Beta 14.1 posted!

DOWNLOAD: Rawr b14.1


Beta 14.1:
- Possible fix for the 'Unable to access a disposed object' error. I still haven't been able to reproduce this, so am not sure if this will solve it; please let me know asap if you still encounter this issue.
- Fix for the optimizer swapping gems around inappropriately when using Known Gemmings Only.
- Fixed the tab order on the Load Character From Armory dialog.
- Added temporary buffs for the SSO Tanking neck
- Fixed the lack of spellcrit on Improved Judgement of the Crusader
- Added Trueshot Aura, and setbonuses for Primalstrike, Clefthoof, and Fel Leather sets.
- Made the item selection dropdown perform much better.

- Rawr.Retribution:

-Changed sliders to be number of buffs instead of uptime %. Uptime is calulcated automatically based on fight duration.
-WF and SoC is somehow broken, will look into it but atm using B14 will probably be your best bet. (thanks Avitus)
#4091SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zupal
Originally Posted by Bellvm View Post
The new update has just granted Crusder Strike an ability to have have 40% more damage when Seal of the Crusader is active.

Does anyone have any data to know if the extra 40% is included in the critical strike chance of Crusader Strike?

And has anyone looked at the dps cycles spread sheet to know if a new combination will be efficient?

I have started using Consecration, Seal of the Crusader, Crusader Strike, Seal of Command, Judgement, and then repeat the cycle.
Tried juggling this last night in Sunwell. I found it to be more annoying that it was worth (particularly on Brut where I am also weaving in Exorcism).

The only real change I made was putting up SotC, CS'ing then judging rather than judging first.

It's entirely possible someone will find a more efficient/better model down the line but I'm not seeing a huge change out of the gate.
#4092SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Covertghost
It looks as if seal-twisting is much more DPS, even though it's pretty easy to screw up the rotation if you aren't used to it.

My first night doing it in a raid environment:

Wow Web Stats (brutallus, didn't have enh shaman for first 30%)

It seems it'd be possible to break ~2300 DPS by twisting SoC with Blood if you have a good rotation going.
#4093SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2akdjr
Originally Posted by Covertghost View Post
It looks as if seal-twisting is much more DPS, even though it's pretty easy to screw up the rotation if you aren't used to it.

My first night doing it in a raid environment:

Wow Web Stats (brutallus, didn't have enh shaman for first 30%)

It seems it'd be possible to break ~2300 DPS by twisting SoC with Blood if you have a good rotation going.
What was your rotation like, and what was your mana consumption like?
#4094SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Covertghost View Post
It looks as if seal-twisting is much more DPS, even though it's pretty easy to screw up the rotation if you aren't used to it.

My first night doing it in a raid environment:

Wow Web Stats (brutallus, didn't have enh shaman for first 30%)

It seems it'd be possible to break ~2300 DPS by twisting SoC with Blood if you have a good rotation going.
How did you not go oom even using rank 1?
#4095SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sapp
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
How did you not go oom even using rank 1?
He only consecrated 3 times total. that's a lot of mana saved.
#4096SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Wow, I'm going to try this tonight. Use a judge/reseal macro for SoC, and just a plain seal button for SoB. CS/exorcism in spare time. I really think it will rape my mana, but it will pretty much guarantee judgement of blood close to CD (since the judgement is independent of GCD).

If this really works as advertised, I can only expect a fix soon. There is no way they'd let a disparity like this exist between horde and alliance.

(On a side note, tonight is Twins shadow chick first... I'm hugely threat capped. Might have to wait for ZA or some such instance to test this).
#4097SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
With seal twisting, I guess you would seal twist first priority, then CS/Judge as you can? Use r1 Command?


Just like totem twisting, I don't see how this could be fixed other than changing the core mechanics of SoC.
#4098SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
makotospeaks
is there any kind of petition/bomb-threat going on about our T6 4 piece? Or has anyone heard of any news to smoke less crack and change it. Or am i retarted and people actually use that ability outside of pvp...

on a related note to seal twisting, anyone tried useing Vengenance with Command as alliance?

Last edited by makotospeaks : 05/15/08 at 4:02 PM.
#4099SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Merple
What's the rotation here? Judge/SoC wait for the autoattack, then seal blood? I think that's what I'm seeing on Barrelroll's combat log...
#4100SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by makotospeaks View Post
is there any kind of petition/bomb-threat going on about our T6 4 piece?
There have been many threads on the WoW forums, I doubt the bonus will ever change. Petitions do not work in WoW.
#4101SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by makotospeaks View Post
is there any kind of petition/bomb-threat going on about our T6 4 piece? Or has anyone heard of any news to smoke less crack and change it. Or am i retarted and people actually use that ability outside of pvp...

on a related note to seal twisting, anyone tried useing Vengenance with Command as alliance?
I've tried numerous times to get our set bonus looked at by the devs, but after having the topic continually deleted and getting banned for reposting it by Hortus I sorta gave up. I think my sig still has a link to the original topic though.

Vengeance is a waste of mana (fancy that) and possible SoC procs. It doesn't scale with anything either. In a perfect situation rolling 5 stacks is worth about 70-80 DPS, but when you count resists, mana consumption (you can't downrank SoV like SoC) and lost SoC swings it really isn't worth it.

The reason Seal Twisting works for Blood Elves is because SoB is always going to proc. SoV, as another wonderful PPM that uses SPELL HIT (come on Blizzard, throw me a bone here) just isn't reliable enough to use.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 05/15/08 at 4:11 PM.
#4102SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
What's the rotation here? Judge/SoC wait for the autoattack, then seal blood? I think that's what I'm seeing on Barrelroll's combat log...
I also wonder what weapon would end up being best, SoB or SoC weapons. I think I'll go find a blasted lands mob to practice this on in any case.
#4103SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Merple
According to external sources, seal twisting works like this:

1. put on seal of command

2. right as your swing animation happens (normal, socomm proc, or crit) swap seals to SoJ(PvP) or SoB(PvE)
#4104SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Covertghost
Basically my rotation was as such:

Autoattack with SoC up

if:
A) SoC procs
B) crusader strike is near on CD
C) Judgement is near on cooldown

Switch to SoB as soon as the attack goes off, this will either grant you extra blood procs (soc + windfury + JoW etc.)

Or will get you back into your normal rotation of blood judging + CS'ing.

Only judge blood since it'll do more damage than R1 SoC and will give you an extra hit with white hit while you're refreshing CS.

Fit in exorcism/consecration when able (though it's not often).

There seems to be a lot of benefits to seal twisting, one large benefit is no mana problem whatsoever (you can't fit consecration 100% into your rotation) and it seems to do more damage than focusing on exo/consec/cs/judges.

SoC weapons would techinically work better as you'd have more SoC procs per autoswing thus negating the missed SoC proc. However, it could be said that if you get your haste high enough with drums + lust you'd be able to switch to Blood and cover 2 full auto attacks with extra procs with it.
#4105SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Merple
Originally Posted by Covertghost View Post
if:
A) SoC procs
B) crusader strike is near on CD
C) Judgement is near on cooldown
Just to clarify you switch for any of the above, or all?
#4106SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Covertghost
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Just to clarify you switch for any of the above, or all?
Any usually, still trying to get a concrete rotation going.

But thus far that's what I've learned produces highest DPS.

I could see alliance doing it with SoR (you don't want another PPM BS spell like SoV when you're trying to twist, you want a guaranteed hit).

Of course it'll be a bit subpar to the horde one (SoR relying on spell damage vs. SoB relying on melee stats)
#4107SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rasputin
Originally Posted by Covertghost View Post
Any usually, still trying to get a concrete rotation going.

But thus far that's what I've learned produces highest DPS.

I could see alliance doing it with SoR (you don't want another PPM BS spell like SoV when you're trying to twist, you want a guaranteed hit).

Of course it'll be a bit subpar to the horde one (SoR relying on spell damage vs. SoB relying on melee stats)
Do you still judge and CS over twisting, or do you ensure SoC is up and your GCD is ready for the switch for each white hit? It seems like without ignoring twist opportunities you rarely get a chance to CS.
#4108SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nerub
I'm raidleader of a guild who cleared t5 recently and is now approaching Hyjal (Archimonde) and Temple (Teron and above). Duo to the enormous lack of enhancement shamans in general (we have one, but two is always better) on our small server I'm considering looking for a retribution paladin now. Is anyone here who can provide a WWS with a retribution paladin in the aforementioned stage of progression? I'd like to know what I can (and should) expect when giving a retripaladin a try.

Any help is appreciated.
#4109SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Merple
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Do you still judge and CS over twisting, or do you ensure SoC is up and your GCD is ready for the switch for each white hit? It seems like without ignoring twist opportunities you rarely get a chance to CS.
Well, consider that you can really only twist once per judgement cooldown. So you wait for the first socomm proc, and then continue judging as normal.
#4110SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Covertghost
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Do you still judge and CS over twisting, or do you ensure SoC is up and your GCD is ready for the switch for each white hit? It seems like without ignoring twist opportunities you rarely get a chance to CS.
My CS is usally a second or so late (cap expertise gives you a little bit of leeway on missing CS'), as the twisting damage will be more than the CS would have been. It's sometimes inevitable that they overlap.

However, next raid I'm going to test completely prioritizing CS and how viable it is. Usually you're stuck on globals or you'll risk autoattacking with no seal at all if you try to CS every single CD on the second.
#4111SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Exemplar
Prioritizing twisting over CS - any issues keeping Judgements up? Losing Wisdom would make the raid unhappy. I think you answered while typing, you don't miss any rotations of CS, just delay them by 1-2 seconds, right?

Also, someone care to number crunch twisting Righteousness for Alliance? Better to keep with the Exor/Cons, since Righteousness doesn't scale with weapon damage?
#4112SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Covertghost
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
Prioritizing twisting over CS - any issues keeping Judgements up? Losing Wisdom would make the raid unhappy. I think you answered while typing, you don't miss any rotations of CS, just delay them by 1-2 seconds, right?

Also, someone care to number crunch twisting Righteousness for Alliance? Better to keep with the Exor/Cons, since Righteousness doesn't scale with weapon damage?
Yeah, judgements never dropped (I run cap expertise now, was missing belt on brut but judgements still remained).

You aren't missing a full rotation or anything, just 1-2s on CS as you try to make time between a white swing and reseal to CS.
#4113SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Since Righteousness scales with spell damage, and the Judgment scales with spell crit/hit, I don't think it is a good idea. Maybe for soloing though.
#4114SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Eathir
Been looking over what sort of DPS you guys push in fights from the various WWS logs that's been linked, and, looking and comparing to what i end up doing in MH/BT at the moment (guild entered T6 dungeons about 3 weeks ago, so only on RoS and Archimonde atm) and i find myself at about 100 - 150 DPS short of what RAWR estimates me to be with the buff's im reciviing, but this is without conc (rank4 usually)/excorcism on RAWR, which i use as close to cooldown as can be managed. I'm raidleading so a bit of the focus is taken away from my personal performance for raid coordination, aswell as swapping in shamans into the pure dps groups for heroisms. Basicly im wondering if there is something im missing that i could improve upon, atm im prioritizing CS on cooldown, judging SoC after that, conc and finally excorcism in that order. Should that order be swapped around? Group generally consists of 2xrogue, arms warrior, enh shaman and retri pally, if the warrior aint avaibible a third rogue is brought in to benefit from the group buffing. Example fight: Wow Web Stats

Current armory is with pvp spec and pvp gear for the weekend as we dont raid friday/saturday and im trying to get the arena points for S3/S4 gloves soon but im hit capped and using a shard of contempt which is my only source of expertise at this point.
#4115SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Emphasis mine. This is actually "very" interesting that you write that, here's why:

If you go back a few pages, before doing any calculations, before we were even trying to find a theory, simply based on observation, A bunch of us had said that after going over so many endgame ret WWS logs it seems weird that SoC proc rate seems to be so high. Just by feel (no calculations done) I threw out that number "8.5ppm" which seems to be the average most people have.


Now you've reached almost the same number (8.4) which we previously reached by observation through calculation. I guess this is proof pretty much that this has to be correct.


Regarding haste: The 8.5 number experienced through observation seemed to come from many different logs wearing a lot of different gear.

I have 124 passive haste rating on my gear, putting in 1x bloodlust, haste pots, DST, and a full Drums of Battle rotation, I have the equivalent average of around 348.56 haste rating (according to Rawr). I've had the same ~8.4ppm in the tries where I had 2 bloodlusts (heroisms),

I'm pretty sure others have different amounts. This is again another point against SoC off base speed (and rather the increase of ppm coming from WF chain procs and proccing off hasted weapon speed). Think it's pretty clear now where we're at
It occurred to me that I forgot to pay attention to an alternative SoC + WF model. SoC procs WF, WF does not proc SoC, and SoC scales with haste.

Chain proc model expects SoC to get 7 * 1.2 = 8.4 PPM.

This 3rd model expects SoC to get 7 * (1 + Haste%) PPM.


Looking back at one of the previously posted WWS:
Saltycracker - WWS - 1995 DPS
134 swings, 43 SoC procs (31.4%/42.2%), 32 WF procs (31.4%/22%)

WWS 1 has 102 swings over 5:19 minutes with a 3.5 AS weapon. The effective AS is 3.14, giving us 3.5/3.14 = 112% haste.

5.33 minutes * 7 PPM = 37.3 SoC procs expected.
37.3 * 112% = 42 procs expected under Model 3.
5.33 * 8.4 PPM = 44.8 procs expected under Chain proc model.

Actual proc # = 43.


Or take your 8.5 PPM number: 348.56 haste rating / 15.8 = 22% haste. You experienced 8.5 PPM. 8.5 / 7 = 1.21 - 21% more SoC procs than expected. WF giving you a 20% bonus? Or haste giving you a 22% bonus?


The real test of our understanding is when when SoC paladins start hitting 30% effective haste. If SoC is scaling with haste, you will see up to 9~10 PPM, whereas the chain proc model predicts no scaling - just a static 8.4 PPM regardless of gear.
#4116SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2CountZero
Originally Posted by Nerub View Post
I'm raidleader of a guild who cleared t5 recently and is now approaching Hyjal (Archimonde) and Temple (Teron and above). Duo to the enormous lack of enhancement shamans in general (we have one, but two is always better) on our small server I'm considering looking for a retribution paladin now. Is anyone here who can provide a WWS with a retribution paladin in the aforementioned stage of progression? I'd like to know what I can (and should) expect when giving a retripaladin a try.

Any help is appreciated.
Here is the Guild URL to our Webstats:
Wow Web Stats

We haven't killed Archimonde nor Teron.
#4117SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Valerys
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
According to external sources, seal twisting works like this:

1. put on seal of command

2. right as your swing animation happens (normal, socomm proc, or crit) swap seals to SoJ(PvP) or SoB(PvE)
I usually have trouble actually seeing my swing animations in raids (all those fat tauren standing around me ). I do have the Quartz swing timer, at which point should I be swapping to SoB? Just before the timer reaches the end, or just after?
#4118SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dr303
I have a question regarding gear and enchantments.

Yesterday the World Breaker dropped for me and i've heard that it's a pretty decent paladin weapon.
Before it dropped I was thinking of getting the Blade of Harbingers but now i'm not so sure it will be all
that big of upgrade. Could I get guidance in this please .

Second question is, what type of enchants
should I put on the weapon. I've heard lots of different opinions, take executioner, take mongoose etc.

Can anyone please help me with these questions.

Thanks.
#4119SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Agusta
It seems that Mongoose is choosed by most Retribution Paladin.
#4120SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
It occurred to me that I forgot to pay attention to an alternative SoC + WF model. SoC procs WF, WF does not proc SoC, and SoC scales with haste.
The easiest way to test this is a long blasted lands test with only SoC and a lot of haste gear. I think it was already somewhat confirmed way back that SoC does not scale with haste and its proc chance is always calculated off the hasted speed (and therefore has a constant ppm)?
#4121SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Meuble
Your last post is getting me confused Avitus. Where you not the one that agreed with Fiola to say SoC "worked" with haste, seeing it's ppm increased? (up to 8.5 for most ally raiders?)

And Barrelroll, very nice dps for seal twisting, I would never have thought this to actually work on a boss. Did you use a maccro of some sort to achieve perfect timing on SoC / SoB rotation?
And something's strange on that report of yours. I would have expect to see less SoB than SoC + white hits, because of timing errors, but...
Barrelroll - WWS
82 white hits + 74 crits = 156
+ 15 SoC hits + 10 crits = 181

193 SoB hits + 55 crits = 248

How is this possible? Unless I'm just missreading wws again (to get total number of hits, you have to manually add hit and crit... unless it has been fixed?), what could it mean?

If we add CS, we get a total of 231 hits for 248 SoB procs, wich sounds more likely... But CS can't proc seals. So, what the hell? SoB procs off WF? Or all those simultaneous hits led to strange selfprocs? Or.. whatever. I don't get it. I hope I just missread that wws.


edit: fixed typos.

Last edited by Meuble : 05/16/08 at 7:42 AM.
#4122SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
When you seal twist, SoB procs off SoC.
#4123SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Meuble
Well, yes... so
82 white hits + 74 crits = 156 is 156 SoB procs...
then, you add
+ 15 SoC hits + 10 crits = 181 for a theorical total of 181 SoB procs.

You might have missed the "+" sign. There's a total of 25 SoC procs in his report, 15 hits, 10 crit. So white hit + 25 should be equal to the total of SoB procs. It's not. So, there's something wrong.
#4124SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2yamamoto
Originally Posted by Covertghost View Post
Basically my rotation was as such:

Autoattack with SoC up

if:
A) SoC procs
B) crusader strike is near on CD
C) Judgement is near on cooldown

Switch to SoB as soon as the attack goes off, this will either grant you extra blood procs (soc + windfury + JoW etc.)

Or will get you back into your normal rotation of blood judging + CS'ing.

Only judge blood since it'll do more damage than R1 SoC and will give you an extra hit with white hit while you're refreshing CS.

Fit in exorcism/consecration when able (though it's not often).

There seems to be a lot of benefits to seal twisting, one large benefit is no mana problem whatsoever (you can't fit consecration 100% into your rotation) and it seems to do more damage than focusing on exo/consec/cs/judges.

SoC weapons would techinically work better as you'd have more SoC procs per autoswing thus negating the missed SoC proc. However, it could be said that if you get your haste high enough with drums + lust you'd be able to switch to Blood and cover 2 full auto attacks with extra procs with it.

Jusr clarifying here. You basically go into the fight, swing with SoC up as the animation occurs you switch to SoB + CS + SoComm wait again SoB on swing (guesing Judge here since 6 sec shouldnt be up) and repeat?

Your A B C, is a bit confusing. Are you saying you KEEP SoC up (meaning not switch to SoB on animation) with those conditions? Thanks for the input
#4125SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2orkyben
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post

And Barrelroll, very nice dps for seal twisting, I would never have thought this to actually work on a boss. Did you use a maccro of some sort to achieve perfect timing on SoC / SoB rotation?
And something's strange on that report of yours. I would have expect to see less SoB than SoC + white hits, because of timing errors, but...
Barrelroll - WWS
82 white hits + 74 crits = 156
+ 15 SoC hits + 10 crits = 181

193 SoB hits + 55 crits = 248

How is this possible? Unless I'm just missreading wws again (to get total number of hits, you have to manually add hit and crit... unless it has been fixed?), what could it mean?

If we add CS, we get a total of 231 hits for 248 SoB procs, wich sounds more likely... But CS can't proc seals. So, what the hell? SoB procs off WF? Or all those simultaneous hits led to strange selfprocs? Or.. whatever. I don't get it. I hope I just missread that wws.


edit: fixed typos.
I guess WWS takes the Seal of Blood self-damage as an additional attack, as it does in the combat log.

When you succesfully pull off a "Seal Twist" however, you will experience a White Swing, a SoC Proc, and TWO x SoB Procs. I imagine the second SoB procs from the SoC.

Going by the 15 SoC hits and 10 crits, that would indicate that Barrelroll pulled off 25 successful "Twists" during this fight, gaining 25 additional SoB procs at the same time.

WWS also shows the "Seal of Command" buff was obtained 54 times, I gather that would mean he attempted to Twist on 54 occassions, approximately 1 in 3 swings, which seems more than viable. Of 54 attempts, 25 successes or a 46.3% - which would almost mirror the SoC Proc Rate with a 3.8 speed Weapon, just 2% out.
#4126SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Meuble
I guess WWS takes the Seal of Blood self-damage as an additional attack, as it does in the combat log.
Yeah, that's the reason, sorry. I took one of my own wws, and it became obvious, each SoB is counted twice. So with the SoC twist, you actually get 4 SoB proc for wws. That's going to be confusing ><

Glad it's clarified, still.
#4127SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fiola
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Your last post is getting me confused Avitus. Where you not the one that agreed with Fiola to say SoC "worked" with haste, seeing it's ppm increased? (up to 8.5 for most ally raiders?)
No, he suggested that 8.5 PPM is SoC benefitting from WF.

ie: 7 PPM, +20% auto-attacks from WF, => 7 * 1.2 = 8.4 PPM.



About the current SoB/SoC twisting discussion, how often do you end up using CS? 8 seconds? (which I guess would correspond to SoC->SoB switch + judgement). How often do you twist? I wanna look at a model of mana use/ potential DPS/ etc from twisting.
#4128SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
I was able to use CS pretty much on cooldown when I tried it last night. The way I understand it works...


1) Judge/SoC macro
2) Swing + apply SEAL OF BLOOD (not a macro) *MAKE SURE YOU USE A SWING TIMER MOD LIKE QUARTZ
3) CS if up
4) Start again at 1 with at least 1.5 seconds before next swing.

Doing this became extremely hard with bloodlust up because of the tight duration between swings, and I didn't even want to add a haste pot on top of that (I have 196 passive haste rating as it is). Also, if the target does not have JoW on it, there is pretty much no point in trying this. I was dumb enough to give it a go at first on pre-twins trash, and lets just say I was OOM for far more than I liked.
#4129SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Your last post is getting me confused Avitus. Where you not the one that agreed with Fiola to say SoC "worked" with haste, seeing it's ppm increased? (up to 8.5 for most ally raiders?)
I see a lot of people get confused with this, because it is admittedly a bit silly to define:

If SoC "scales" with haste, it would mean that it takes into account the BASE weapon speed (not the hasted weapon speed) as the speed it calculates the SoC proc chance off. Meaning, your proc chance is static, yet because of haste you're swinging faster and proccing SoC more often. There would be a ppm increase = SoC "scales" with haste.

If SoC "does not scale" with haste (as is mostly assumed/agreed upon), it would mean that it takes into account the HASTED weapon speed (not the base weapon speed) as the speed it calculates the SoC proc chance off. Meaning, your proc chance is dynamic, the faster you swing due to haste, the lower the proc rating. There would be a constant (unchanging) ppm = SoC "does not scale" with haste.


About the ~8.4 ppm, as fiola said, the current conclusion is the procs off WF, not a relationship with haste.

Hope that clarifies this semantics land mine
#4130SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
...

About the ~8.4 ppm, as fiola said, the current conclusion is the procs off WF, not a relationship with haste.
I don't think that's the correct conclusion. = P
http://elitistjerks.com/747439-post4115.html


I think it's more likely that SoC scales with haste but does not proc off WF.
#4131SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Morindor
Originally Posted by Nerub View Post
I'm raidleader of a guild who cleared t5 recently and is now approaching Hyjal (Archimonde) and Temple (Teron and above). Duo to the enormous lack of enhancement shamans in general (we have one, but two is always better) on our small server I'm considering looking for a retribution paladin now. Is anyone here who can provide a WWS with a retribution paladin in the aforementioned stage of progression? I'd like to know what I can (and should) expect when giving a retripaladin a try.

Any help is appreciated.
My guild just entered Hyjal and I've posted a couple WWS let me see...
Alar:
Wow Web Stats
Rage Winterchill
Wow Web Stats (died to the first ice bolt after a frost nova in death and decay, but my dps is there from trash.)
Lurker/Tidewalker:
Wow Web Stats (a mod stopped my combatlog and this is all that was recorded of the night)


Edit:
Originally Posted by Valerys View Post
I usually have trouble actually seeing my swing animations in raids (all those fat tauren standing around me ). I do have the Quartz swing timer, at which point should I be swapping to SoB? Just before the timer reaches the end, or just after?
I use quartz and have played with seal twisting a little. I have actually found it to be surprisingly forgiving. I have been twisting just as the quartz timer hits the end.


Edit 2:
As far as the SoC scaling with haste is concerned why doesn't someone go to blasted lands with a few dozen stacks of haste pots and only attack just after potting and stopping just as the buff is about to wear off. It would be enough haste to be sure of the results (400 + whatever static haste the tester might have). BTW not it...

Last edited by Morindor : 05/16/08 at 5:10 PM.
#4132SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Morindor View Post
Edit 2:
As far as the SoC scaling with haste is concerned why doesn't someone go to blasted lands with a few dozen stacks of haste pots and only attack just after potting and stopping just as the buff is about to wear off. It would be enough haste to be sure of the results (400 + whatever static haste the tester might have). BTW not it...
Translation:

Why doesn't someone who's really bored go to blasted lands and spend hundreds of gold.
#4133SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
yamamoto
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Translation:

Why doesn't someone who's really bored go to blasted lands and spend hundreds of gold.
I'd be willing to do this, but would I require a weapon without mongoose on it i assume?

How many Haste pots would be suggested to gather a good enough pool of data?

Finally, what should I use to collect the data? Recount or would wowwebstats do the job

Last edited by yamamoto : 05/16/08 at 7:46 PM.
#4134SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Galick
JoW Problems

I don't have any WWS reports to show it, but I have had AWFUL luck all week long with JoW procs. I use the Blizz standard UI and the scrolling combat text no longer shows mana gains from JoW so it's hard for me to even tell when it is up. On most fights my sanctified judgement is giving me 2-3 times more mana back than JoW is which is beyond abyssmal compared to prepatch. I was wondering if anyone else was having the same issue. I know for sure that it's not getting bumped off because I've seen the debuff up for entire fights and still had more mana issues than I have had in the past.
#4135SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Morindor
Originally Posted by yamamoto View Post
I'd be willing to do this, but would I require a weapon without mongoose on it i assume?

How many Haste pots would be suggested to gather a good enough pool of data?

Finally, what should I use to collect the data? Recount or would wowwebstats do the job
Correct on Mongoose.

Well you would want at a minimum 10 minutes of combat data, 20 minutes preferred. Haste pots last for 15 sec so thats 40 pots minimum. With a 2 min CD between pots 40 pots would take 1.5 hours to get data for.

I like WWS myself, more complete and easy to show off.

If you find the time and energy to do this I would be impressed. It makes my head spin thinking about it.

Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Translation:

Why doesn't someone who's really bored go to blasted lands and spend hundreds of gold.
Nothing was lost in translation here :P
#4136SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I don't think that's the correct conclusion. = P
http://elitistjerks.com/747439-post4115.html


I think it's more likely that SoC scales with haste but does not proc off WF.
As far as I can see, you haven't provided any statistical evidence to support this. What exactly makes you think it's more likely SoC scales with haste rather than procs off WF?

Again as said before, run a 20-30 min blasted lands test with just SoC, no WF and some haste gear and see what your results are going to be. Then we can conclude this.

Edit: About 50 pages back (don't have time to look for it at the moment), I ran a test with 9 shammies (iirc) all popping heroism in sequence (being rotated into my party) on a blasted lands mob.

I was at 30% hasted all the time and the results of the test were 7ppm for SoC. The only reason I don't like to use this test as an example is that it was a pretty small data set (~5 mins), though admittedly with an extreme amount of haste (30%+!) which makes up for it somewhat.

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 1:21 AM.
#4137SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Galick View Post
I don't have any WWS reports to show it, but I have had AWFUL luck all week long with JoW procs. I use the Blizz standard UI and the scrolling combat text no longer shows mana gains from JoW so it's hard for me to even tell when it is up. On most fights my sanctified judgement is giving me 2-3 times more mana back than JoW is which is beyond abyssmal compared to prepatch. I was wondering if anyone else was having the same issue. I know for sure that it's not getting bumped off because I've seen the debuff up for entire fights and still had more mana issues than I have had in the past.
My last Brut log has me at a cushy 79.5% proc chance for JoW, so I think the problem is more that the spell is dropping off or you are the one judging it and you're not getting the benefit of the refresh bug. Try to log it next time and we can look at the exact problem.
#4138SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Covertghost
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Doing this became extremely hard with bloodlust up because of the tight duration between swings, and I didn't even want to add a haste pot on top of that (I have 196 passive haste rating as it is). Also, if the target does not have JoW on it, there is pretty much no point in trying this. I was dumb enough to give it a go at first on pre-twins trash, and lets just say I was OOM for far more than I liked.
Thing is, if you get enough haste (drums + haste pot + lust) you'll be able to have one seal of blood cover 2 auto attacks even if you resealed in between them because of how it registers.
#4139SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
As far as I can see, you haven't provided any statistical evidence to support this. What exactly makes you think it's more likely SoC scales with haste rather than procs off WF?

Again as said before, run a 20-30 min blasted lands test with just SoC, no WF and some haste gear and see what your results are going to be. Then we can conclude this.

Edit: About 50 pages back (don't have time to look for it at the moment), I ran a test with 9 shammies (iirc) all popping heroism in sequence (being rotated into my party) on a blasted lands mob.

I was at 30% hasted all the time and the results of the test were 7ppm for SoC. The only reason I don't like to use this test as an example is that it was a pretty small data set (~5 mins), though admittedly with an extreme amount of haste (30%+!) which makes up for it somewhat.
Avitus, it feels like you aren't reading my posts.


If you followed the link in the post you quoted, I cited a Brut WWS from the first sets of data (the ones I used to show WF + SoC yielded abnormally high WF proc rates, implying WF proc'd off SoC)


Saltycracker - WWS - 1995 DPS
134 swings, 43 SoC procs (31.4%/42.2%), 32 WF procs (31.4%/22%)

That's from the sets of data used to show that WF had an abnormal proc rate on SoC.

"WWS has 102 swings over 5:19 minutes with a 3.5 AS weapon. The effective AS is 3.14, giving us 3.5/3.14 = 112% haste.

5.33 minutes * 7 PPM = 37.3 SoC procs expected.
37.3 * 112% = 42 procs expected under Model 3.
5.33 * 8.4 PPM = 44.8 procs expected under Chain proc model. "


I also used the numbers *you* provided in this post:
http://elitistjerks.com/742879-post4033.html


"I have 124 passive haste rating on my gear, putting in 1x bloodlust, haste pots, DST, and a full Drums of Battle rotation, I have the equivalent average of around 348.56 haste rating (according to Rawr). I've had the same ~8.4ppm in the tries where I had 2 bloodlusts (heroisms),"

You experienced 8.5 PPM, which is about +21% from 7 PPM. WF would provide +20% SoC Procs under the chain proc model. But you also had +22% haste, which would provide +22% SoC procs under the "SoC scales with haste but not WF" model.


My data doesn't conclusively prove my point of view, but the data isn't a slam dunk for the chain proc model either.
#4140SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
With apologies to Dazanna, your WWS was recent and right there:

132 total swings -> 103 normal swings
29 WF procs
39 SoC procs


5:51 DPS time. (5.85 minutes, 351 seconds)

351 / 103 = 3.41 AS (couldn't find the base weapon AS, but we can see that it's hasted)
39 / 103 = 37.9% chance to proc SoC (this is low, but there's more)
39 / 5.85 = 6.67 PPM


Under the chain proc model, we expected 8.4 PPM regardless of the amount of haste rating, as long as we have WF. 0 haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM. 350 haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM. Gajillion haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM.

We know that the WF uptime is close to 100%, because we have 103 + 39 = 142 swings, and expected 28.4 WF procs (if SoC procs WF).


So what's going on? Good question.


EDIT: One thing to test for is if it's SoC downtime. I'd like to try DPSing with 0 judgements.
#4141SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Meuble
I'm gonna try to grab some time this week end and do one run with WF and no haste, another with haste stuff and no WF.
However, I can only go up to 162 haste rating. Would this be enough for a test, or should I get some badge stuff?
#4142SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Avitus, it feels like you aren't reading my posts.
I am, but you are missing my reply: I've tested SoC with haste (and no WF) and it was 7ppm. So despite your numbers fitting (just as well as the other theory), it dies because it's based on something which has already pretty much been proven wrong (though it could use more extensive testing so it can hold up in the "well that was just RNG" argument).


=>SoC does not increase ppm through haste. This has been tested many many times. So any argument that includes that is.... well, nice theory, but we already know it's wrong, even if the numbers match up since if you remove WF, it doesn't fit anymore (= ergo it's not the haste that's increasing the ppm!).


The only concession I'll make is that the tests were not extensive enough to prove without a doubt that it's not RNG, but they are a heavy indicator (especially since it's more than one test).

Should there be more number crunching done which proves that for some inexplicable reason SoC goes off base speed (contrary to all other procs post TBC, including some that got changed to fit the TBC model afaik), I'll be more than happy to submit to the "haste increases ppm" argument.

But until then, most tests done on this subject point otherwise, which is why I'm disregarding it, regardless how many mathematical breakdowns you make of it (matching numbers != proof of theory) :S


(Sorry if I'm halfway repeating myself in the next part, but just trying to make it as clear as I can since we seem to have hit some confusion).

This is what it boils down to:

Please understand, it's not the mathematical breakdowns I disagree with. What I disagree with is the principle of SoC going off "base" weapon speed proc chance, since this has already been proven to be wrong. So no matter how many mathematical breakdowns you post to prove your point, they will really go no where as that's not even the point of your argument I'm questioning.

I believe if you take a WWS log without WF (if such a log can be found), your model will not fit anymore, because it's based on a false assumption ("haste increasing ppm").

The only event that will ever prove this is if and only if someone can supply a 20-30 min data set of SoC with a lot of haste gear showing a SoC ppm increase, the data should be enough and the results should be significant enough to rule out any RNG oddities.



Edit: I found a link for the "very rough test": [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

Take this with a bucketload of salt, still 30% hasted speed, it must have been a huge RNG messup if SoC did get increased ppm through haste yet I only got 7.3ppm (2.37 ppm off the assumed value if it did scale with haste).

Curious how this was on page 12, it's 154 pages later and we still didn't get anyone who can be arsed to run a decent test with a large enough data sample.

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 10:58 AM.
#4143SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
I know I read that post you referred to, but I can't find it.


Here's the starting point for the first "SoC scales with haste?" post I made back then, on page 69:
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

I'm not going to link every post that was made on the subject, but here are a few highlighted posts.
http://elitistjerks.com/618483-post1722.html
http://elitistjerks.com/621149-post1764.html << good point on math model to use.


After 5 pages, we end up at
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

Which says:
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Well a few pages back I wrote my results from chaining heroism from 7 shammies with no increase to SoC procs and my conclusion was that it is based on the hasted weapon speed. This means that haste is a pretty crappy stat for alliance paladins, since it only increases white damage.

Admittedly, it was a very rough test, but I was hoping the massive haste increase of heroism (+30%) would make up for the short duration/small number of swings, so take it with a pinch of salt I guess.

. . .
I couldn't find the post you referred to here. I remember reading it, but the forums seem to have ate it. (I tried searching for posts by you: http://elitistjerks.com/search.php?s...8&pp=25&page=8 there's a gap between 1/25 and 2/4)


So we don't have the numbers for the 7 heroism test - but I'm gonna make some guesses - 7 heroisms is 280 seconds.

If we used a 3.8 AS weapon, 280 seconds -> 280 / 3.8 * 1.3 = 95.8 swings
expected (haste scales) SoC: 95.8 * 44.3% = 42 procs
SD = 4.9
expected (no haste scale) SoC: 95.8 * 34.1% = 32.7 procs
SD = 4.6


What was the actual # of procs? If there were, say, 35 procs, that looks like the "SoC does not scale with haste" proc #, but it's still within 2 SDs of the expected value for haste scaled SoC. (we can expect 68% of values within 1 SD, 95% within 2 SD) We still have some ambiguity.


There's one more post I found that's relevant:
http://elitistjerks.com/628413-post1882.html

Unfortunately, the WWS are gone, so we can't take a 2nd look at the raw numbers. This one is also funky because it's a low-level attacking a higher level target (As far as I can tell from the replies).



So no, I don't think the past tests were conclusive, since they were contradictory in the first place. Then consider that all those tests were done 1 major patch ago, which adds the potential that something was stealth-changed.

The main reason I want more numbers on this is that the chain proc model does not satisfactorily explain all the parses. There's a set of numbers with no haste but with WF, and we do not see the numbers suggested by the chain proc model. (ie: no hasted weapon, 100 normal swings, 30 WF, should see around 130 * .40 = 52 SoC procs; but we see 40~ SoC procs)



We "knew" WF didn't proc off SoC - but the data shows that WF proc rate is higher when SoC is used. Or can be higher, at least.

We "know" SoC doesn't scale with haste, but we have data showing PPM much higher than what we should be getting. Why? We have 3 different models, (chain proc, WF procs SoC if it was proc'd by normal attack, WF does not proc SoC but SoC scales with haste) and all seem to have problems explaining parts of the data we have.


Needs more testing. = P

EDIT: And sorry for all these walls of text. I need to organize my thoughts better for easy skimming.

Last edited by Fiola : Yesterday at 11:18 AM.
#4144SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
With apologies to Dazanna, your WWS was recent and right there:

132 total swings -> 103 normal swings
29 WF procs
39 SoC procs


5:51 DPS time. (5.85 minutes, 351 seconds)

351 / 103 = 3.41 AS (couldn't find the base weapon AS, but we can see that it's hasted)
39 / 103 = 37.9% chance to proc SoC (this is low, but there's more)
39 / 5.85 = 6.67 PPM


Under the chain proc model, we expected 8.4 PPM regardless of the amount of haste rating, as long as we have WF. 0 haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM. 350 haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM. Gajillion haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM.

We know that the WF uptime is close to 100%, because we have 103 + 39 = 142 swings, and expected 28.4 WF procs (if SoC procs WF).


So what's going on? Good question.
I wouldn't try to analyze that WWS too much.

Somehow I got stuck with the job of swapping Shamans around for Herosims, so I wasn't pushing my cooldowns hard about halfway through the fight while I was moving people and yelling at them to blow Heroism (I really was only hitting CS and judging once in a while). I also lost Windfury for a few seconds at around the 3:30 mark because I swapped with a resto to Heroism the melee.

If you do want it though, Weapon is a Cat's Edge (3.5) with 17 passive haste rating, 2 sets of drums and 1 Heroism.
#4145SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
I know it's "off" (in that the PPM is less than 7).


However, if you had SoC uptime of 100%, then the amount of WF uptime is irrelevant.

You had 103 normal swings, which should contribute 7 PPM under the chain proc model.
You had 29 WF procs, which should contribute 1.4 PPM under the chain proc model.

The effective PPM is less than 7 - so either our understanding of SoC's proc mechanics is wrong, or SoC uptime was less than 100%, or some combination of both.


Personally, ever since we've started discussing this, I've found I have a habit of judging *right* before I swing - and with SoC, non-procs look just like non-sealed swings.
#4146SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Meuble
Hey. I've achieved the first run. 40mn of bashing a mob with SoC on haste gear (162). No WF.
And while at it, a thought occured.
I'm trying to see if SoC PPM scales with haste. On a mob I'm bashing from front, and wich is attacking me... giving me chance to parry. And parries increase my attack speed for the next swing. Soooo... the modus operandi's quite fucked up, no?
Considering the amount of parries I get, I don't think it's negligible. I'm still gonna do the other run with WF and no haste. I'll try to post both of them later on this week end.
#4147SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Under the chain proc model, we expected 8.4 PPM regardless of the amount of haste rating, as long as we have WF. 0 haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM. 350 haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM. Gajillion haste rating -> expect 8.4 PPM.
I went over this statement and that's actually not necessarily true under "chain proc model". It's true for Model 1, but here's what actually happens with chain proc:

Example 1 (3.8 weapon speed):

A 3.8 weapon speed would generate 60/3.8 * 1.2 = 18.95 white attacks (autoattack + WF)

Under chain rule, you'd have: 3.8 * 7 / 60 = 44.3% chance to proc SoC, which at 18.95 attacks would give you 8.4 ppm.

Example 2 (2.0 weapon speed):

A 2.0 weapon speed would generate 60/2.0 * 1.2 = 36 white attacks (autoattack + WF)

Under chain rule, you'd have: 2.0 * 7 / 60 = 23.3% chance to proc SoC, which at 36 attacks would give you 8.4 ppm.


Looks ok so far?

Now we add the chain procs:

In example 1, those 8.4 ppm SoC, would each have a 20% chance to proc WF = 1.68 more WF attacks, which would in turn possibly chain proc 0.7448 more SoC attacks (at 44.3% chance each), putting the overall proc chance at 9.1448 ppm.


In example 2, those 8.4 ppm SoC, would each have a 20% chance to proc WF = 1.68 more WF attacks, which would in turn possibly chain proc 0.392 more SoC attacks (at 23.3% chance each), putting the overall proc chance at 8.792 ppm.

For accuracy (though it becomes insignificantly small if you recurse it past the first chain proc) I'll do the 2nd chain proc recursion:

Example 1: Taking the 0.7448 additional SoC attacks, would give you 0.14896 more WF attacks which would in turn give you (at 44.3% chance) 0.066 more SoC attacks, bringing the total after 2nd recursion to: 9.21 ppm

Example 2: Taking the 0.392 additional SoC attacks, would give you 0.0784 more WF attacks which would in turn give you (at 23.3% chance) 0.01829 more SoC attacks, bringing the total after 2nd recursion to: 8.81 ppm


As you can see the variance between the first chain proc and the 2nd is very small, so it can probably be ignored in the future.

Anyway, taking 3.8 speed and 2.0 speed pretty much gives us the extremes. This means that under chain proc model, with WF, your SoC proc chance will always lie somewhere between 9.21 ppm and 8.81 ppm (not the previously claimed 8.4 ppm, I think I never actually spelled it out in math was working with proc chances rather than ppm in all my previous examples).





Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Here's the starting point for the first "SoC scales with haste?" post I made back then, on page 69:
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
Yea I've seen many people link that specific post from the wow boards thread and every time I have to shake my head and say: Procwatch is a "very" bad tool for this.

How do you know what conditions those attacks were made under? How do you know he didn't have WF for some of them? Is there "any" guarantee how he ran those tests, what other variables might have influenced them?

To me a procwatch image is just someone saying "hey look the clouds are forming a bunny in the sky!", I've used it a lot back then and I know how easy it is to mess up the results. Unless the results using procwatch are in a very controlled test and coming from a first hand source you can ask about those conditions, I really tend to disregard "look someone's procwatch said this" results.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I'm not going to link every post that was made on the subject, but here are a few highlighted posts.
http://elitistjerks.com/618483-post1722.html
http://elitistjerks.com/621149-post1764.html << good point on math model to use.
A problem a figured about all our blasted lands tests: They might be very valid to calculate proc "%" out of the number of swings, but they should not be used to calculate "ppm" straight out of "duration". The reason being are all the parries you yourself are doing (you parrying the mobs attacks), giving you a lot of "up to 50% faster" swings after those parries during that "duration" (= more attacks than you expect).



Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I couldn't find the post you referred to here. I remember reading it, but the forums seem to have ate it. (I tried searching for posts by you: http://elitistjerks.com/search.php?s...8&pp=25&page=8 there's a gap between 1/25 and 2/4)


So we don't have the numbers for the 7 heroism test - but I'm gonna make some guesses - 7 heroisms is 280 seconds.

If we used a 3.8 AS weapon, 280 seconds -> 280 / 3.8 * 1.3 = 95.8 swings
expected (haste scales) SoC: 95.8 * 44.3% = 42 procs
SD = 4.9
expected (no haste scale) SoC: 95.8 * 34.1% = 32.7 procs
SD = 4.6

What was the actual # of procs? If there were, say, 35 procs, that looks like the "SoC does not scale with haste" proc #, but it's still within 2 SDs of the expected value for haste scaled SoC. (we can expect 68% of values within 1 SD, 95% within 2 SD) We still have some ambiguity.
The number of procs was actually exactly 35.

I edited it in pretty late so I guess you missed it:

I found a link for the "very rough test": [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft

Take this with a bucketload of salt, still 30% hasted speed, it must have been a huge RNG messup if SoC did get increased ppm through haste yet I only got 7.3ppm (2.37 ppm off the assumed value if it did scale with haste).

Curious how this was on page 12, it's 154 pages later and we still didn't get anyone who can be arsed to run a decent test with a large enough data sample.


Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
The main reason I want more numbers on this is that the chain proc model does not satisfactorily explain all the parses. There's a set of numbers with no haste but with WF, and we do not see the numbers suggested by the chain proc model. (ie: no hasted weapon, 100 normal swings, 30 WF, should see around 130 * .40 = 52 SoC procs; but we see 40~ SoC procs)
Well, lets not forget that, neither model will ever "satisfactorily explain all parses", since the crushing majority of the WWS logs we have here are only 6 mins or less and will suffer under RNG.

I'm not saying "this is a blanket excuse out of everything that doesn't match", but you need to always remember that what we're going from here at the moment is "correlation" of a lot of data "suggesting" the same, while fully admitting that a lot of it is messed up due to RNG.

What I mean to say by this is that "a lot of results" saying one thing or the other can strengthen (though not prove) either of our current working theories through correlation, but "one or two" results saying the opposite are not enough to disprove it (rng!).



Originally Posted by Meuble View Post
Hey. I've achieved the first run. 40mn of bashing a mob with SoC on haste gear (162). No WF.
And while at it, a thought occured.
I'm trying to see if SoC PPM scales with haste. On a mob I'm bashing from front, and wich is attacking me... giving me chance to parry. And parries increase my attack speed for the next swing. Soooo... the modus operandi's quite fucked up, no?
Considering the amount of parries I get, I don't think it's negligible. I'm still gonna do the other run with WF and no haste. I'll try to post both of them later on this week end.
Yea this is very true and something I always regret with blasted lands test. Make sure you use the number of attacks and procs rather than the ppm in the end, since you will have too many attacks for that attackspeed/duration to get a correct ppm due to parries.

Also noting down the number of parries can be useful.

At 162 haste rating, assuming WF scales with haste, you should notice a ~10.279% increase in SoC procs or a 7.71954 ppm. My memory on statistics isn't that fresh, so maybe someone can state how many results would be needed in order to statistically rule out RNG when distinguishing between 7.71954 ppm and 7 ppm.




(Damn these posts just keep getting longer ;/ I really hope we get a conclusive blasted lands test so we can tell heads from tails.)
#4148SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Eathir
In order to get rid of the issue with parries for Blasted Land mobs, might it not be a good idea to get a friend to tag along, preferably another paladin who, without being in the party keep Righteous Fury up so that the mob will be attacking him rather then the one doing the actuall test? That way you can easily make sure that you will hit the mob from behind and get rid of the problem with parries messing up the numbers.
#4149SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Katrael
In order to easily remove parry from the equation for a long term test, there are unkillable ogre spirits behind the area where you fight king Gordok in Diremaul north, that don't aggro. It shouldn't be too difficult to get back there with a person or two. I'd go do some testing there myself, but my paladin has zero haste rating at the moment.
#4150SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Carmillia
I am not 100% sure if I get this seal-twisting thing, but basically what you do is use r1 SoC, and when you see the procc animation you switch to SoB for a SoB procc on the SoC procc?
#4151SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Carmillia View Post
I am not 100% sure if I get this seal-twisting thing, but basically what you do is use r1 SoC, and when you see the procc animation you switch to SoB for a SoB procc on the SoC procc?
Pretty much. I swap Seals around .1 or .2 on my swing timer and that usually works. The only problem (well, the problem I'm having) is when trying to fit Judgement, CS, and the occasional Consecrate.

My 1st attempt and raid seal twisting was during Brutallus the other night. It felt really... awkward.

(omg 1st EJ post)
#4152SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sayris
Would seal twisting make [Libram of Divine Judgement] a better choice over [Libram of Avengement]? I'm considering trying out seal twisting tonight on Illidari Council since it seems like a pretty good fight for it seeing as there is no exorcism usage and I rarely drop consecrate to limit confusion. The only thing I'm concerned about is the possibility of going out of mana since it is such a long fight and I tend to chain haste potions. Has anyone had experience trying it out on that fight (or Illidan for that matter), or are there any suggestions of a better fight to play with it on?
#4153SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fenwe
Twisting Seal of Crusader in 2.4.2

Has anyone had any luck on finding an effective twist rotation to get Rank 1 SoCr worked in before your Crusader Strikes. It has a 1.5 GCD on the seal cast so seems like the challenge is how to get Seal of Command back up quick enough so that you don't miss the SoCommand Procs after you cast the SoCr and then Crusader Strike.
#4154SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Short Answer: Rank 1 Seal of the Crusader gives 40 attack power, there is no reason whatsoever to be using it.

Long Answer: Seal of the Crusader reduces your weapon damage by roughly 40% while it is active to maintain equal DPS. A bug with CS was discovered where it would take the new, lower weapon damage if you had SotC up, reducing the damage of CS by about 40%. The "increases the damage of CS by 40%" was simply to balance the bug, not to buff CS damage. The only additional damage you gain from SotC is the AP it gives you. Twisting SotC is useless.
#4155SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sayris View Post
Would seal twisting make [Libram of Divine Judgement] a better choice over [Libram of Avengement]? I'm considering trying out seal twisting tonight on Illidari Council since it seems like a pretty good fight for it seeing as there is no exorcism usage and I rarely drop consecrate to limit confusion. The only thing I'm concerned about is the possibility of going out of mana since it is such a long fight and I tend to chain haste potions. Has anyone had experience trying it out on that fight (or Illidan for that matter), or are there any suggestions of a better fight to play with it on?
With seal twisting, at least as I see it, you shouldn't be doing Judgement of Command. If you could, then you could simple add an equip line to your seal macros and get to use both anyway.
#4156SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sayris
Ah okay, that makes sense then. I just figured since you have to switch to SoB right before the swing anyway that judging wouldn't cause any problems. It's due to mana constraints that you wouldn't judge SoC, correct?
#4157SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
With seal twisting, at least as I see it, you shouldn't be doing Judgement of Command. If you could, then you could simple add an equip line to your seal macros and get to use both anyway.
Not a good idea, since swapping Librams resets the swing timer.
#4158SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Sayris View Post
Ah okay, that makes sense then. I just figured since you have to switch to SoB right before the swing anyway that judging wouldn't cause any problems. It's due to mana constraints that you wouldn't judge SoC, correct?
Not really because of mana, but because JoB hits harder than JoC. And because it'd be silly to go...

- Seal Command
- Swing, thus Seal Blood
- ReSeal Command to Judge
#4159SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Not a good idea, since swapping Librams resets the swing timer.
Hmmm... I just think it activates a GCD while in combat.
#4160SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sapp
Originally Posted by HamSlammer View Post
Hmmm... I just think it activates a GCD while in combat.
The libram checks serverside after you judge (or the two-spells nature of Judgement of Command delays the check long enough for you to equip first).

I added /equip "Libram of Mending" to my holy light cast, and added /equip "Libram of Divine Judgement" to counter that, both at the end of their relevant macros. Even when the macro swaps, on the /cast Judgement /cast Seal of Command /startattack /equip libram macro I still occasionally get Crusader's Command procs off that judgement.
#4161SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Protagoras
Does Rawr take DPS-increasing set bonuses into account, e.g. the T4 (2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%?

The reason I ask is that Rawr is showing [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Helm] as a ~5 DPS increase for me over [Justicar Crown], while the spreadsheet is showing the latter as a ~2 DPS increase over the former. (I also have [Justicar Shoulderplates] in the shoulder slot on both.) Same gems and enchant on everything. The only thing I can think of that would account for this is that one takes the 2 piece set bonus into account while the other doesn't.
#4162SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2orkyben
Originally Posted by Sayris View Post
Ah okay, that makes sense then. I just figured since you have to switch to SoB right before the swing anyway that judging wouldn't cause any problems. It's due to mana constraints that you wouldn't judge SoC, correct?
I think when attempting to Seal Twist, you should play the majority of the fight with Seal of Blood up, Judge Blood, Seal of Command R1, and "twist" on your next auto attack.

Something like this:

Seal of Blood Active.... ----> [Auto Swing]------>[Judgement of Blood]-[Seal of Command (R1)]------>[Seal of Blood+Auto-Swing]


Utilising a macro such as:

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 1)

Basically pulling off the entire twist between your auto-attacks, so you have Seal of Blood active on 100% of your White Swings. You may just have to simply delay your Judgements a little, waiting until just after an auto-swing has gone off.

It seems effective to try and pull this off every third swing, affecting your Crusader Strike cooldown as little as possible.
#4163SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sayris
Yeah. I've spent the last 30 minutes or so trying out different theoretical rotations and they turn out pretty sloppy, but that was because I was basing the whole rotation around twisting rather than trying to work it in around what already existed. I think it's just hard for me to overcome the "everything on cooldown" mentality that I've had since pre-BC as a warrior and not judge as often as I'm used to. Playing around with twisting a little bit last night showed me how powerful it was, so it's definitely worth putting some effort into learning before it gets "fixed".

Thanks for all the help and making me realize the obvious, such as not being able to judge every seal due to the cooldown on it.
#4164SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Covertghost
Originally Posted by orkyben View Post
I think when attempting to Seal Twist, you should play the majority of the fight with Seal of Blood up, Judge Blood, Seal of Command R1, and "twist" on your next auto attack.

Something like this:

Seal of Blood Active.... ----> [Auto Swing]------>[Judgement of Blood]-[Seal of Command (R1)]------>[Seal of Blood+Auto-Swing]


Utilising a macro such as:

#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 1)

Basically pulling off the entire twist between your auto-attacks, so you have Seal of Blood active on 100% of your White Swings. You may just have to simply delay your Judgements a little, waiting until just after an auto-swing has gone off.

It seems effective to try and pull this off every third swing, affecting your Crusader Strike cooldown as little as possible.
Yeah, exactly.
#4165SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Yeah Sayris, I learned in ZA that the "adhoc" method of twisting leads you down a bad road of forgetting or missing CS/judgements. From the way I see it, the actual twist only occurs on one out of every 2 to 3 swings, just somethign to do with some downtime more than a real change to your rotation. I'm going to practice it on blasted lands mobs for a while, then on Tuesday give it a try on brut and see if I'm not entirely retarded.
#4166SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Soultrain
would it be worth it to get imp judgement as a BE trying to seal twist or are you only goin to get one twist inbetween judgments anyway? i guess after thinking about it judgement is your reset of SoC so you would want that on a shorter c/d. /shrug i guess its up to you BE to play around with.
#4167SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zupal
With all of the passive haste on tier 6.5, felspine, sunwell rings and neck, it's quite hard to time. I'd agree it's possibly something to weave into your rotation if you CDs make sense but at this point I'm not sure how much i'll be using it.

Oddly this technique might be more effective for paladins who haven't picked up t6/6.5 haste gear. I would have had a much easier time doing this with Torch + BT pieces than my current gear set.
#4168SourcePosted on <=2.0.0dr303
Sorry for going off the seal-twist discussion but I have a question about armor penetration.

Has anyone tried with a big amount of ArP? Does it make a big difference in raids (trash mobs and bosses).
#4169SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Carpathia
I agree, the slower your swingtime is, the better you can perform sealtwisting without screwing up your other CDs.
I've tried sealtwisting on Brutallus and during the bloodlust + hastepot time i totally messed it (analysing the wws, there were some swings even without any seal).

The burst potential of sealtwisting also should be considered. If you get a WF+SoC proc, there will be 3 SoB procs after it :

19:29'32.546 Carpathia gains 1 Attack from Windfury Attack
19:29'32.546 Carpathia's Swing hits Brutallus for 1630 Physical damage
19:29'32.861 Carpathia gains Windfury Attack
19:29'32.889 Carpathia's Seal of Command hits Brutallus for 1673 Holy damage
19:29'32.889 Carpathia's Swing crits Brutallus for 3822 Physical damage
19:29'33.283 Carpathia gains Seal of Blood
19:29'33.690 Carpathia's Seal of Blood hits Brutallus for 900 Holy damage
19:29'33.700 Carpathia's Seal of Blood crits Brutallus for 1809 Holy damage
19:29'34.129 Carpathia's Seal of Blood crits Brutallus for 1838 Holy damage

so be careful on high threat situations


If you want to give sealtwisting a try, it's essential to use an accurate swingtimer mod like Doc's Swingerclub and practice the above-mentioned rotation

Last edited by Carpathia : Yesterday at 7:11 AM.
#4170SourcePosted on <=2.0.0[Willis]
Hi guys,

I've been using this thread to help me work out a lot of my ret questions, so I wanted to thank the guys who are putting the time and effort into helping guys like me. I've been (and still am) a holy paladin, but recently been going ret for brutallus (great place to start when you've got no experience huh? lol)

My one question is, with AW being a 3min cooldown, and all trinkets/potions being 2min, what is the most efficent use of timers?

This is how I've been approaching it

Brutallus:
0:15 AW + trinket + haste pot (15 sec allows for vengence x3)
2:15 trinket + haste pot
3:15 AW back up but trinket/pot down
4:15 all cooldowns up but heroism in 15 sec
4:30 AW + trinket + pot + heroism
5:15 2nd shaman switched in for heroism #2

What about an 8 min fight where you have 3x AW cooldowns resets? Brut is unique in that you can only ever get 2 AWs, so I save the second for heroism. In a fight that allows AW to be used every time it is availabe, do you just use trinket and potions on a 3 minute rotation as well?

Thanks,
Willis


(posted from my iphone, hopefully this is legible)
#4171SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
That must have taken an awfully long time to write with your iphone (at least it would with mine).

Anyway, your rotion for Brut looks fine. For longer fights, just remember an Avenging Wrath is always more beneficial in a heroism or bloodlust (same goes with any cooldown except haste potions, which are pretty much equal alone compared to bloodlust/heroism, but more valuable when used with cooldowns). That being said, using one heroism in a lust/hero is not more beneficial than using two without. Just keep these pieces in mind and you should be set.

On to a different topic, those of you worried about your raid spots on M'uru should not be. Apparently, Vindication does work on the blood elves (the mobs the melee would be attacking), and it DOES lower the mobs total hp. By how much I'm not sure, but when the mob goes from 97% --> full numerous times you can rest assured its because of lowered HP and not heals.
#4172SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by dr303 View Post
Sorry for going off the seal-twist discussion but I have a question about armor penetration.

Has anyone tried with a big amount of ArP? Does it make a big difference in raids (trash mobs and bosses).
I'm running with 923 passive + Executioner right now and yes, it is a very nice DPS increase. I wouldn't use Armor Penetration items over best-in-slots, but there are plenty of Armor Pen. items that are close enough that they're worth wearing.
#4173SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
ArP for us is like haste for warriors (and maybe alliance ret pallies?); its not bad at all, but its not the best.

Speaking of which, there seemed to be a lot of discussion (arguements?) regarding SoC procs in the previous page or two...I haven't been able to catch if that has been resolved or not. Anyone care to clear this up for me so I can make appropriate changes to Rawr if necessary?

Edit: Avitus hasn't posted in a day or so, should we panic?
#4174SourcePosted on <=2.0.0shinato
For the past few hours i've been searching this thread about ferals and retridins, and their contributes to the raid DPS and desided to make a post and ask for directions or the math itself.

This week we've started to talk about group synergy and the use of retridins, and the discussion atm is if a rogue/rogue/war/enh/retri do more raid dps then a rogue/feral/war/enh/ret. or rogue/rogue/feral/war/enh. In any case its about melee group synergy.

So far i haven't found what i was looking for in this thread and hope you guys can help me with this situation cause i'm no mathematic.

The question is, what melee group synergy is or would be best in theory. (practice and RNG can screw things up of course).

Melee group:
1) Enhancement Shaman
2) DPS Warrior
3) Rogue
4) Retridin
5) Feral

tank group:
1) Protection Warrior
2) Enhancement Shaman
3) DPS Warrior
4) Rogue
5) Hunter

If i remembered the statements in this thread correct, it was said a feral has more use of a hunter as well as that the total DPS would be higher with a second rogue in the melee group replacing the feral. So in short, swapping the rogue with the feral from the tank group to the melee group.

Above is still talk, our current melee group consist mostly out of enh/war/rogue/rogue/feral and with the help of this thread i'm slowly convincing the leader to take a retridin


There have been several posts about retri DPS and it is really believing but i need comparisons to the other classes, with math to back it up.

I'd really appreciate it if somebody would be willing to take the time to math it out for me, or point me to the page/thread where i can find it.

P.S. for info, our guild is currently raiding BT, trying to kill illidan so our gear lvl is roughly T6 equivalent.
#4175SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Soultrain
Originally Posted by [Willis] View Post
Brutallus:
0:15 AW + trinket + haste pot (15 sec allows for vengence x3)
2:15 trinket + haste pot
3:15 AW back up but trinket/pot down
4:15 all cooldowns up but heroism in 15 sec
4:30 AW + trinket + pot + heroism
5:15 2nd shaman switched in for heroism #2
you dont have issues with mana? i know if im useing max rank cons and exorcism i have to mana pot and from what ive read it is better for an ally pally to do so
#4176SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alborak
Originally Posted by dr303 View Post
Sorry for going off the seal-twist discussion but I have a question about armor penetration.

Has anyone tried with a big amount of ArP? Does it make a big difference in raids (trash mobs and bosses).
To see empirically how ArP affects your damage you get get Rawr, and play with both the Boss Armor Slider and ArP gear. Anecdotally, while on trash you can see (fairly drastically) how your damage increases as sunder stacks up on the mob. I only have 230 ArP so far, but with full sunders up You can really notice the damage increase on CS when Executioner procs. I'm Looking forward to grabbing the signet of primal wrath and Gurtogg pants but alas both are hard to come by for us.

Additionally, I'm working on finding out what is a reasonable tolerance for tightness of ret cycles, but I'm having issue with consecration. On WWS, for counting consecration I would think that it would be DoT tics + all resist, but in all the wws I've gone over so far this does not end up being evenly divisible by 8. I'd think that it should, considering that i've only looked at teron & Brut so far and unless the boss dies with consecration up it should tic all 8 times. Aside from that, would it be a safe bet that for whatever whole number the (total / 8) ends up as, to round it up to the next whole number?
#4177SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
Additionally, I'm working on finding out what is a reasonable tolerance for tightness of ret cycles, but I'm having issue with consecration. On WWS, for counting consecration I would think that it would be DoT tics + all resist, but in all the wws I've gone over so far this does not end up being evenly divisible by 8. I'd think that it should, considering that i've only looked at teron & Brut so far and unless the boss dies with consecration up it should tic all 8 times. Aside from that, would it be a safe bet that for whatever whole number the (total / 8) ends up as, to round it up to the next whole number?
If the boss dies halfway through a Consecration it will only tic 4 times on the WWS (example). Just add tics+resists and divide by 8 and round up for purposes of seeing total number of casts.
#4178SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zupal
Originally Posted by Soultrain View Post
you dont have issues with mana? i know if im useing max rank cons and exorcism i have to mana pot and from what ive read it is better for an ally pally to do so
The above sentence is not well-formed.

Anyway, with JoW, 2Piece T6 and mana spring (assuming enhance shaman), I don't have any mana problems on Brut during a pretty heavy rotation. If JoW get knocked off from debuffs, you are going are going to go OOM unless you mana pot. I used to have problems with JoW getting knocked off mid-way during Brut but with some debuff management, it's been up 100% in recent kills.
#4179SourcePosted on <=2.0.0[Willis]
Originally Posted by Soultrain View Post
you dont have issues with mana? i know if im useing max rank cons and exorcism i have to mana pot and from what ive read it is better for an ally pally to do so
Oh I do have mana problems, but I've never been ret, so my gear is kinda gimped (need 2nd t6 ret piece for bonus) and I'm not a full time ret paladin, so I still have trouble knowing how long my mana will last.

My first night as ret (ever) was on brut practices and I was doing a pathetic 1200dps. On our second night I was ~1500. Our attempt that produced our first kill last week, JoW fell off at 30%, so that significantly affected my dps. I'm hoping to get a better feel for it this week now that I have a mod to watch other paladins judgements.

Question to the alliance paladins on brut: do you mana pot? I'm really new to this; I'd love to know what you guys doing 1900+ do differently


Edit: sorry for legibility problems, still posting from my iPhone which, while being a luxury, is still a hassle

Last edited by [Willis] : Yesterday at 2:03 PM.
#4180SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
[Fel Mana Potion] and [Assassin's Alchemist Stone] if you have it. You'll want to use a DST/Zerker's Call in place of DC:C because of the debuff, but it is well worth the cost. Without the alchemist stone I am able to keep down Rank IV Consecration and rank VII Exorcism almost the entire fight, with it I would assume you could max rank both.

To clarify, your trinkets should look like this:

Fel Mana Potion
Slot 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Slot 2: [Assassin's Alchemist Stone]
-or-

Fel Mana Potion
Slot 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Slot 2: [Dragonspine Trophy] or [Berserker's Call]
-or-

Super Mana Potion
Slot 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Slot 2: [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
SoC should always be equipped, your second trinket depends on what type of pot you're using.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Yesterday at 3:45 PM.
#4181SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
You'll want to use a DST/Zerker's Call in place of DC:C
Wouldn't [Shard of Contempt] still be the best trinket even for alliance paladins? It gives 11 base expertise, how would you compensate for that when your racial only gives 5? I've seen most alliance paladins dropping one of the new pieces of T6 to compensate for the gap.
#4182SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Wouldn't [Shard of Contempt] still be the best trinket even for alliance paladins? It gives 11 base expertise, how would you compensate for that when your racial only gives 5? I've seen most alliance paladins dropping one of the new pieces of T6 to compensate for the gap.
SoC should be in trinket slot 1 regardless of whatever you're using in the second slot. I should have been clearer, if you're not using the Alchemist's stone and using fel manas you don't want DMC:C is what I meant. I'll edit that.
#4183SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Ah, I didn't think you'd make a mistake like that. Point understood

On a side note, my haste gear is coming along nicely. 233 passive haste + DST. I'm a little nervous about twisting, if I have time to practice it more before brutallus I will, if not I'll just go the old SoB route. Either way a few people were curious if I'd make a video of my Brutallus DPS, and I believe that the EJ ban on Brut strats has been lifted. Hoping for T6 belt tonight to cap me on expertise so I will never miss a CS (man, that's gonna be an awesome feeling).
#4184SourcePosted on <=2.0.0[Willis]
About the mana potion/haste potion thing...

Super mana potion: 1800-3000 (2400) mana
Fel mana potion: 3200 mana
Max rank concecration: 627 mana for 512 damage

Number of concecrations with 1 mana pot: 3-5 depending on which potion and how much mana it returns.
That is a total of 1536-2560 damage from 1 mana potion.




Haste potion: 38.05% increase in attack speed for 15 seconds
Average DPS: ~1500 (ball park value, for napkin-math)
Average DPS from white damage: ~44%

1500*0.44 = 660dps from white damage.
Adding haste potion: 660 * 1.38% = 910.8 dps * 15 seconds = 13662 total damage for 1 haste potion


Am I missing something? I'm not claiming to know much about this stuff, but it seems really odd to use a mana potion to use more max rank concecrations which are terribly inefficient for damage per point of mana.

I know this is very very rough math, but thankfully dealing in percentages i dont have to worry about all the random buffs that affect the haste duration, its a percentage of the overall dps of a paladin
#4185SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
With an Alchemist Stone (the only time you would be using max rank) you get back 4480 mana from each Fel Mana Pot, or about 7 max rank Consecrations. Combined with JoW, Mana Spring and BoW you are getting enough mana to keep a max rank Consecration down all the time. Full rank Consecration at 100% uptime is roughly 115 DPS.

Avitus has a long post comparing them with exact numbers a bit back.
#4186SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by [Willis] View Post
...

Am I missing something? I'm not claiming to know much about this stuff, but it seems really odd to use a mana potion to use more max rank concecrations which are terribly inefficient for damage per point of mana.
"Adding haste potion: 660 * 1.38% = 910.8 dps * 15 seconds = 13662 total damage for 1 haste potion"


You're attributing the base damage from auto-attack (100%) to the haste potion (which only adds 38%). I'd hope that you'd continue auto-attacking when you use consecration... = )



Corrected equation:
660 DPS * 38% * 15 seconds = 251 DPS * 15 seconds = 3762 damage



EDIT: I don't get why the formatting code breaks like this... grr.
#4187SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alborak
Evaluating precision of DPS Cycles.

Something that I haven't seen discussed too much here in our thread is discussing how close to optimal players are able to get with their rotations. The aim is to give players something to compare against evaluating their own performance.

My data came from randomly selected WWS reports. The constraints of the search were that they were on the front page of Brutallus reports, and that they were alliance paladins. The alliance restraint is due to hoard paladins receiving greater benefit from Haste pots and possibly having improper exorcism and consecrate data. If I caught you on a bad day, I'm sorry.

The mediocre spreadsheet i made to sort it out is here:
Google Docs - times

This is what i found:

Average Time per Crusader Strike: 6.58
Standard Dev: 0.19

Average Time Per Judgment: 13.81
Standard Dev: 2.77

Average Time per Exorcism: 25.34
Standard Dev: 8.63

Consecration times varied far too much to be worth anything in my opinion. Additionally I did not track the average tic of consecration, which would have been good to do in hindsight as it would have given a better idea of the relationship between consecration rank and realistic uptime.

The crusader strike result seems very solid. With lag and *possible* GCD overlap 6.5 is still close to the 6.0 ideal. And it lets me know that my 6.9 personal average could use some work, although I'm tempted to blame me living somewhere between 2-3 thousand miles from the server for it.

However, i could use some help interpreting the judgment and exorcism results. Should i have excluded some of the more varied data, or just used a larger sample? The 13.8 second judgment seems very off to me, and my personal is around 10-11 seconds. Also, why do top end paladins have such long judge cool downs on Brutallus? Am i missing something there? Same questions go for exorcism.
#4188SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
Something that I haven't seen discussed too much here in our thread is discussing how close to optimal players are able to get with their rotations. The aim is to give players something to compare against evaluating their own performance.
...

However, i could use some help interpreting the judgment and exorcism results. Should i have excluded some of the more varied data, or just used a larger sample? The 13.8 second judgment seems very off to me, and my personal is around 10-11 seconds.
Actually about a dozen pages back (right around the bend where everyone was posting their Brutallus results), you'll find quiet a few dissections of WWS reports which discussed just that. Don't have time to look for them right now, but if you flip back a few pages, you should find what I'm talking about.

On another note, far from it me wanting to diminish any effort being done in ret theorycraft, but I do have to question your selection:

I see a heavy majority of the reports you selected listing paladins doing a sad ~1600 DPS on Brut, some as shamefully low as 1500 DPS. As a matter of fact, besides Saltycracker's WWS and maybe two or so others in there doing >1800 DPS, almost all the other results list horribly low WWS performance.


Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
My data came from randomly selected WWS reports. The constraints of the search were that they were on the front page of Brutallus reports, and that they were alliance paladins.

...

Also, why do top end paladins have such long judge cool downs on Brutallus? Am i missing something there? Same questions go for exorcism.
And here lies the problem. WWS front page is filled by the top dps "raids", yet it does not mean their ret paladins are performing that well.

With the rare exception of a ret paladin at Brutallus not being in melee group or a backup holy paladin in low end gear filling the ret spot, any DPS under ~1750 is just bad play.



I'd say if you want to pursue this add the restriction of at least >1850 DPS to be considered, otherwise you're just saturating the results by pure bad play.


Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Edit: Avitus hasn't posted in a day or so, should we panic?
I won't be around much for the next two weeks of exam hell, but I'll check in here and there as time allows.
#4189SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alborak
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I see a heavy majority of the reports you selected listing paladins doing a sad ~1600 DPS on Brut, some as shamefully low as 1500 DPS. As a matter of fact, besides Saltycracker's WWS and maybe two or so others in there doing >1800 DPS, almost all the other results list horribly low WWS performance.

And here lies the problem. WWS front page is filled by the top dps "raids", yet it does not mean their ret paladins are performing that well.

I'd say if you want to pursue this add the restriction of at least >1850 DPS to be considered, otherwise you're just saturating the results by pure bad play.
Aha, i was wondering why they seemed so low on DPS. I made the assumption that guilds killing brutallus in ~5m would have solid ret paladins, but that doesn't seem right anymore. However, while Saltycracker does have 2k dps, his judge and consecrate times also seem to be high?

I will take up your recommendation for the 1850 restriction, I'll have plenty of time to search tomorrow at work.
#4190SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Consecration time is not a factor really, since some people don't downrank and just use their extra mana with max rank.

Best case scenario, you want to be downranking just right to be able to spam consecration the whole fight through without having to stop due to mana issues at any point, while at the same time making sure you have no mana left over at the very end of the fight. This is certainly what I strive for.

In reality, a lot of people tend to just use max rank and then stop when their mana goes low, then continue again after mana pot (or when they get more mana) and so on, instead of downranking.


The above described best case would obviously give you slightly more bang (damage) for your buck (mana) due to more efficient damage/mana ratio on lower ranks, but the overall difference between both methods is really minimal, not enough to cause a fuss over :P


About judgement times, what results are you getting? Keep in mind the theoretical optimum should be 9 seconds (not 8) due to prioritizing CS.
#4201SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
[Willis]
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
Read this:
Elitist Jerks - Announcements in Forum : Public Discussion


The haste pot adds 38% more JoW procs from Auto-attack. In a 15 second time period, you might have around ... 5 auto-attacks? You get an extra 2 auto-attacks.


On the other hand, 3000 mana buys at least 5 Consecrates and each Consecrate has a chance to proc JoW. (You get more than 5 if you downrank)
I posted a "thanks" in advance for anyone willing to take the time to comment on my performance, didn't mean for it to be a signing of a post, my mistake.

Anyway thanks for the information and criticisms.

Last edited by [Willis] : 05/21/08 at 12:12 PM.
#4202SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Saltycracker
@Alborak

I do hear ya on the non ideal attack timings, but I'm constantly fighting the global cooldown to keep my rotation going.

CS (1.5s GCD) -> Judgement/Reseal(1.5) -> Exorcism (1.5) -> Consecrate (1.5)

Not to mention lag adding to the equation. You can see from that rotation that you global cooldowns add up to 6 secs. So If I was to do that over and over (allowing time for cooldowns) you would always be missing attacks. It just becomes fun juggling priorities. You use your high dmg attacks before you use your lower ones.

If I still have 1 sec cooldown remaining on my CS and my Exorcism is ready, I dont feel too bad about losing .5 secs off my CS.

Im not too fussed about judging and resealing tightly because you lose 1.5 secs to GCD in the process as well as no judging close to a swing in case you lose a SoC proc. Im usually doing judges and reseals in the middle of my swing timer.

These are things I'm sure everyone is struggling with. Its hard to be perfect especially with this cobbled spec Bliz has given us.

Edit: Thanks Kadrok, Its brain dead tuesday.

Last edited by Saltycracker : 05/21/08 at 1:18 PM.
#4203SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Kadrok
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
@Alborak

I do hear ya on the non ideal attack timings, but I'm constantly fighting the global cooldown to keep my rotation going.

CS (1.5s GCD) -> Judgement(1.5)/Reseal(1.5) -> Exorcism (1.5) -> Consecrate (1.5)

Not to mention lag adding to the equation. You can see from that rotation that you global cooldowns add up to 7.5 secs.
Judging is not subject to the GCD. A Judgement/reseal macro will only cause 1 GCD. Keep in mind that you do not always have to judge and reseal at the same time. You can judge immediately after you Crusader Strike, during the GCD, as long as you have time to recast your seal before your swing.

Last edited by Kadrok : 05/21/08 at 1:26 PM.
#4204SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Indulge me for going back to the refreshing judgements proccing JoW for a sec.

Did we run any tests where more judgements on the target result from more procs? Say we have JotC, JoW, JoL, JoJ active on the target (4 paladin raids are uncommon though). Does having more judgments on the target scale the amount of JoW procs you will get?
#4205SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonwing
I see the haste chart on the first page and the damage scaling for it with SoC. My question is, is there a similar chart posted somewhere on this threat with Ignore Armor? with everything I have proc'd im at about 1660 ignore armor (that's executioner too) so i'd like to see the effect it's having and how well it scales.
#4206SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Something else I realized last night, most people probably have already but it struck me as pretty awesome. Haste has a "hidden" benefit...it increases the proc rate of JoW/JoL (as well as any other non-PPM effect you may have from trinkets, etc). I noticed that with 0 benediction mana still wasn't that big of an issue (I still didn't like having to ration my consecrates, and twisting with 0/5 benedictions was pretty aweful).

Just wanted to point out the obvious, thats another "check" on the pro's side of haste for ALL paladins.

On a side note, I wonder if Blizzard will address the retribution community's concerns in the new talents and skills. It seems to me that blizzard is taking a new approach this time around, doing talent trees first and then possibly going back and adding in level 80 skills.
#4207SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2[Willis]
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Indulge me for going back to the refreshing judgements proccing JoW for a sec.

Did we run any tests where more judgements on the target result from more procs? Say we have JotC, JoW, JoL, JoJ active on the target (4 paladin raids are uncommon though). Does having more judgments on the target scale the amount of JoW procs you will get?
I believe they concluded that refreshing your judgement with auto-attack (or any? melee swing) will cause a judgement proc from another paladin's judgement.
#4208SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rasputin
I tried out twisting on Brutallus last night, and came to the conclusion that for me, it's not worth it. With a base 3.29 attack speed, DST, Mongoose and haste potions, it becomes a nightmare trying to sync up timers with twisting and getting decent CS usage and ensuring every attack has at least a SoB proc. I tried it for a few fights and it was pretty unmanageable for me. In addition, while I did get it right a few of those times, it didn't seem like a very dramatic increase in damage. I ended up getting better results returning to a standard priority rotation including exorcism and consecration(probably due in part to the fact that I'm raid leading and have to juggle groups around and pay attention to brezzes and such). That said, if there were a dps race fight in which we couldn't use exorcism or consecration I would definitely consider seal twisting, as it seems to at least make up for that difference.

Anyway if people want to check out my parses we had a subpar night and plenty of brut wipes which allowed me to try out each of these cycles: Wow Web Stats
#4209SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rodimus Prime
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
From my understanding and from playing with bellator's spreadsheet, the proc from SoC is the same across all ranks - that is, it's always 70% weapon damage. Downranking SoC will cost you dps from the judgment. Depending on how big of a percentage that dps is, I'd imagine for better-geared paladins it wouldn't be such an issue.
The way I've always approached this situation is that in the past, Judgments have typically made up 5~ish% of my damage (or last time I really used a Max rank SoC), necessitating chaining Super Mana/Fel Man Potions to make up for the extra mana loss in using Max rank. Since I've entered T5/T6/T6.5 content, I've only used Rank 1 SoC, and not had as much of a problem with mana longevity; additionally, Judgments make up 3-4% of my total damage... it's really trading a *bit* of damage for longevity in my eyes, and in my opinion, a Pally with no Mana does little to no damage. Additionally this frees up your potion cooldown to chain Haste Potions instead of Mana Potions.

... and for the record, Seal Twisting in PvE is a nightmare.

For PvP, I hopped on my Blood Elf and it was pretty overpowered (Nerf needed in my opinion) - Using Cataclysm's Edge & 4/5 T6, I was hitting clothies for 10k in one swing pretty much every time.
#4210SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Something else I realized last night, most people probably have already but it struck me as pretty awesome. Haste has a "hidden" benefit...it increases the proc rate of JoW/JoL (as well as any other non-PPM effect you may have from trinkets, etc). I noticed that with 0 benediction mana still wasn't that big of an issue (I still didn't like having to ration my consecrates, and twisting with 0/5 benedictions was pretty aweful).

Just wanted to point out the obvious, thats another "check" on the pro's side of haste for ALL paladins.
Going from a 3.5 to a 3.0 swing timer nets you an extra 1.4 JoW procs a minute (if JoW is acting correctly), or about 8.63 Mp5. Not terrible, nothing to write home about though.
#4211SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2osmigos
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
... and for the record, Seal Twisting in PvE is a nightmare.

For PvP, I hopped on my Blood Elf and it was pretty overpowered (Nerf needed in my opinion) - Using Cataclysm's Edge & 4/5 T6, I was hitting clothies for 10k in one swing pretty much every time.
I'll second this. I've found it almost impossible to actually get a dps increase with twisting in PvE due to cooldowns. In PvP though you can get some absolutely nightmarish hits with a reliable frequency. It's almost like playing Pre-tbc PvP again with one-shotting every second opponent.
#4212SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Buliwyf
Also regarding Brutallus, if I get 1800+ I'm happy and it's a good one. Usually I am getting 1600ish. I know for a start the enchant on my weapon is not ideal (Savagery) but surely that can't be the only thing letting me down. I'm sure my average judgment time can't be more than 10-11 seconds...

One problem I do have which I am unsure how to overcome. The shaman in my group "never" tells us when he will do BL. It could be near the start, middle or end. I usually try time my AW to coincide with it but wind up losing out on doing two per fight if he does a late BL. I'm the guy who taunts at enrage (if it happens) so I need forbearance gone by the time it hits.
My question would be this, should I ignore when he does his BL and just hit AW along with my own haste pot cycles and forget trying to time them together, or wait and risk only using one AW?

Sadly, getting the Shaman to tell me every attempt when he will exactly do BL is out of the question.
#4213SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by [Willis] View Post
Just wondering if there are any major mistakes anyone can notice? I can't seem to break 1600dps and i'm not sure i want to blame it on gear yet! although 2 piece t6 would really be nice, along with some more expertise!
You are getting parried. Try to stand in a place where when he turns to the other tank you wont be in his front cone. If you end up there, move.

I see you got a burn. If you are having mana issues, try to take the burn a bit longer before DSing it off. The heals will help your mana out.
#4214SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Morindor
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Indulge me for going back to the refreshing judgements proccing JoW for a sec.

Did we run any tests where more judgements on the target result from more procs? Say we have JotC, JoW, JoL, JoJ active on the target (4 paladin raids are uncommon though). Does having more judgments on the target scale the amount of JoW procs you will get?
I ran tests with 2 paladins and 2 judgments only. I thought about running tests with a full load of judgements, but I don't think I can wrangle enough pallys into doing my dirty work for 20 minutes at one time.

I'm not certain CS refreshes judgements the same way as our autoswing does. CS refreshed judgements still drop in priority, while our own judgements are act as if they were just reaplied. If I were to make a hypothesis it would be that judgements refreshed by CS do not give a chance to proc JoW.
#4215SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
For those who are bored or interested, here is our last Brut kill last night. It was far from ideal, as I got only one bloodlust, and we didn't have CoR or a Surv Hunter. You can find the WWS in my sig (Sunwell on May 20th).

Zurm vs Brut
#4216SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2JettJaguar
What are you using to announce your CDs? Is it SCT (if so is it built-in or custom events you have defined)?
#4217SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Zurm
New Apolyon stats: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...olyonfinal.jpg

Quickened to 3.4, sorry alliance.

And yea, its SCT (built in)

Last edited by Zurm : 05/21/08 at 10:43 PM.
#4218SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
New Apolyon stats: <snip>

Quickened to 3.4, sorry alliance.

..............

God damn it blizzard.
#4219SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonwing
I can't seem to figure out what twisting seals is. but assuming it involves attack speed, my best guess is an alternation of SoCrus with a quick switch to SoC/SoB ??? Or is it something else?

And if it is something else... what I just said sounds intersting... people do that?

nobody answered my dps question either. ArP vs Haste. 1-1 ratio is one better than the other at any point, what general region is that "fine line".
#4220SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Hulabaloon
Judgement of the Crusader

Hi, I'm primarily a holy paladin. I've respecced to retribution for a week to see what it's like to play. I have a question about Judgement of the Crusader. How short does a fight need to be so that you won't judge it? Do you judge on just bosses (not trash) or does the damage increase from it outweigh what an extra Judgement of Command would do on any fight longer than a few seconds?

Thanks
#4221SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Dragonwing View Post
I can't seem to figure out what twisting seals is. but assuming it involves attack speed, my best guess is an alternation of SoCrus with a quick switch to SoC/SoB ??? Or is it something else?

And if it is something else... what I just said sounds intersting... people do that?

nobody answered my dps question either. ArP vs Haste. 1-1 ratio is one better than the other at any point, what general region is that "fine line".
Seal twisting is alternating between SoC and SoB.

Basically, you start off buffed with SoC, then as your swing connects, you switch to SoB. What happens is that you get a white hit, a SoC proc, a SoB proc from the white hit, and a SoB proc from the SoC proc*.

In PvP, you can replace SoB with SoJ, such that you get a white hit, a SoC proc and a (guaranteed?) SoJ stun.

*I still believe it's a WF-esque weapon damage swing that only shows up yellow because it's magical damage because of this, akin to a Elemental mob dealing magical damage in its melee attacks following melee rules.
#4222SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonwing
so as an alliance paladin, my best bet would be to do this with SoV, as I don't have SoB?
#4223SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
New Apolyon stats: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...olyonfinal.jpg

Quickened to 3.4, sorry alliance.

Oh for the love of... punching the new values into Rawr shows a ~14 DPS decrease for SoC users, just from that 0.1 speed shift (also a slightly more negligible ~6 DPS decrease for SoB)

Sometimes I wonder if they do this on purpose, this is the second time this happens, first from 3.8 speed to 3.5, now to 3.4 speed. I really question what their goal is here.

I know none of them were announced, but surely they can't be naive enough to think that even those internal/pre-release decisions don't get noticed and have their effects.

Why release the end of expansion, best in slot two hander as a 3.4 speed beats me.


Furthermore, this closes the gap between Apolyon and the S4 sword a shockingly laughable ~8.5 DPS difference if you need the hit rating from the S4 sword (and ~30 DPS if you're at the hit cap and wasting the 19 hit rating on the S4 sword).



In regards to the "newly discovered items" on mmo/wor, my review:

The new cape is just mental: Cloak of Unforgivable Sin, there's just nothing out there that comes close, by a very large margin.

Same case is with the new mail gloves (and they have +int as a bonus!): Thalassian Ranger Gauntlets

Both of these are so ridiculously powerful through sheer itemstats, they even go above other previously best in slot items that had hit rating even under the hit cap ([Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] and [Hard Khorium Battlefists]). They are both definitely the new best in slot items, regardless of hit cap or SoC/SoB usage (though that's of course on paper, you might want to still always aim for hitcap for other reasons).


The other two items are slightly less obscene, but still pretty good:

Coif of Alleria is the new best in slot if you're hit capped, but loses to [Duplicitous Guise] if you're actually going to use all the 30 hit rating to get capped from that. Again, +int is an added bonus here.

Borderland Paingrips are nothing to call home for really. They're better than [Hard Khorium Battlefists] if you don't need the hit and worse if you do. Both of them lose to [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] and of course the new mail gloves mentioned above, regardless of hit cap.



On a slight tangent, I think Rawr is currently severely overestimating [Blackened Naaru Sliver] unless I'm missing something. For some reason it's shown as the equivalent of 146 passive AP and 54 haste, which I don't think is correct.


Originally Posted by Dragonwing View Post
so as an alliance paladin, my best bet would be to do this with SoV, as I don't have SoB?
I don't normally do this, but: This exact question, as well as your previous one is answered pretty much exactly in the last few pages by several people. For the sake of everyone involved, can you please actually read the thread rather than constantly ask for information to be spoonfed? ;/

Last edited by Avitus : 05/22/08 at 12:34 AM.
#4224SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
On a slight tangent, I think Rawr is currently severely overestimating [Blackened Naaru Sliver] unless I'm missing something. For some reason it's shown as the equivalent of 146 passive AP and 54 haste, which I don't think is correct.
Yeah, those are the stats for Cats... Probably significantly lower for you guys due to longer time to get it to proc and longer time to stack the buff up.
#4225SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
On a slight tangent, I think Rawr is currently severely overestimating [Blackened Naaru Sliver] unless I'm missing something. For some reason it's shown as the equivalent of 146 passive AP and 54 haste, which I don't think is correct./
Napkin time (this may be horribly incorrect, correct me please if so). Assuming an unhasted 3.5 speed w/ Cat's Edge. Very unrealistic in a raid scenario, but this'll be the "worst" scenario...

Assuming the trinket procs and you CS and hit at the exact same time, here's what it would look like for Seal of Blood.

0:00 Trinket procs
0:00 White hit
0:00 SoB hit
0:00 Crusader Strike

+132 (3x44) AP for 20 seconds

0:03.5 White hit
0:03.5 SoB hit

+88 AP for 16.5 seconds

0:06 Crusader Strike

+44 AP for 14 seconds

0:07 White hit
0:07 SoB hit

+88 AP for 13 seconds

0:10.5 White hit
0:10.5 SoB hit

+ 88 AP for 9.5 seconds

After 10.5 seconds you'd have a 10 stack, equaling 440 AP for 9.5 seconds. If you take the uptime of each individual AP stack and divide by the buff's duration, 20 seconds, you should find the average AP you'd gain during it's proc.

132*(20/20) = 132
88*(16.5/20) = 72.6
44*(14/20) = 30.8
88*(13/20) = 57.2
88*(9.5/20) = 41.8

334.4 average AP over 20 seconds.

Now, divide this by the internal CD of 45 seconds.

334.4*(20/45) = 148.62 AP

148.62 AP assuming it procs every 45 seconds. It won't, so given a 10 second window of it proc'ing after it's cooldown, it's between 135-148.6 AP.

Remember, this is the "best" WORST scenario.

-----------------------

For the "worst" WORST scenario...

no haste, trinket procs right after you CS and white it, basically your initial White hit is delayed 3.5 second and your initial CS is delayed 6 seconds (same setup as ubove, I don't want to retype >_>)...

111.46 AP assuming it procs every 45 seconds. It won't, so given a 10 second window of it proc'ing after it's cooldown, it's between 91.2-111.46 AP.

-----------------------

Averaging out the two worst scenarios you're looking at 113.1-129.03 AP from this trinket. What this value basically is is the worst this trinket can be for Seal of Blood. In a raid scenario, this would be higher due to haste from several sources (Bloodlust, Drums of Battle, passive haste from gear, etc) leading to faster stacks and sooner activations. 121+ AP + 54 Passive Haste will outdo DST I imagine.

Gah, I'm tired now.

(I do realize the trinket itself gives some passive haste (54) but I was forgetful and it made the math easier.)
#4226SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Dragonwing View Post
so as an alliance paladin, my best bet would be to do this with SoV, as I don't have SoB?
Your best bet would be to not do it at all.

Without spell damage, your SoV would only be hitting for base values (and taking up a debuff slot on top of that)
Without spell hit, you're looking at a 16% resist rate

I'm not sure if twisting allows you to make guaranteed SoV/SoJ procs (follow up question below), but assuming that it doesn't, you're looking at non-procs on a twist in addition to the high resist rate.

Even considering the cannot-be-resisted, always-procs SoR, I doubt it'd be worth the mana consumption and cooldown/GCD timing issues.

==========================

I have a couple of questions regarding twisting which I haven't read thus far:

1. Does twisting cause you to land a guaranteed SoC proc?
1.1 If yes, would it be worth twisting for an Alliance Paladin just to get a 100% SoC rate?
1.2 If no (I assume this is the case), how many SoB procs do you get on a twisted swing where SoC does not proc?

2. Does twisting cause you to land a guaranteed SoJ stun?
#4227SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
I have a couple of questions regarding twisting which I haven't read thus far:

1. Does twisting cause you to land a guaranteed SoC proc?
1.1 If yes, would it be worth twisting for an Alliance Paladin just to get a 100% SoC rate?
1.2 If no (I assume this is the case), how many SoB procs do you get on a twisted swing where SoC does not proc?

2. Does twisting cause you to land a guaranteed SoJ stun?
1. Nope. You're still subject to the proc% associated with your current weapon speed. All Seal Twisting does is allow for the chance to proc SoC while still guaranteeing your SoB to land. If the Twist is successful, aka SoC procs, then you land White + SoC + 2x SoB. If it's unsuccessful, aka SoC doesn't proc, then you just land the normal White + SoB.

2. Nope, same as above. It does, however, increase the likelihood SoJ will proc because you're allowing for the potential of more strikes to occur that can proc it.
#4228SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Oh for the love of... punching the new values into Rawr shows a ~14 DPS decrease for SoC users, just from that 0.1 speed shift (also a slightly more negligible ~6 DPS decrease for SoB)
Honestly, I'm not too upset about a 6 dps loss for more mana returned due to JoW procs. Maybe I'll be able to rank up and compensate for that. SoB isn't affected by weapon speed in any way in terms of DPS gain/loss, so a slight CS hit is nothing for me to cry home about. Sorry you guys get screwed though, I honestly think it was put in place to make sure S4 was better for pvp.

And yes, the new Cloak is simply out of this world. I'm skeptical of the gloves, I definitely need the hit from [Hard Khorium Battlefists], and I doubt I'll make the switch.
#4229SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
I don't know how accurate those numbers will be HamSlammer, as you're assuming SoB procs will proc the trinket. Until some pally gets out there and checks it out I would be hesitant to believe that weapon imbues (which seals really are just a glorified version of) proc the trinket. If SoB doesn't proc the trinket you're looking at it being even worse, though it might be balanced because of the haste rating.

For SoC I doubt it will be anywhere near good compared to DST.
#4230SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Bart00
Well there's windfury too, it probably will proc it.
#4231SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I don't know how accurate those numbers will be HamSlammer, as you're assuming SoB procs will proc the trinket. Until some pally gets out there and checks it out I would be hesitant to believe that weapon imbues (which seals really are just a glorified version of) proc the trinket. If SoB doesn't proc the trinket you're looking at it being even worse, though it might be balanced because of the haste rating.

For SoC I doubt it will be anywhere near good compared to DST.
I should've clarified I was working under that assumption. However, I really can't see it not working off Seal hits... rather, I hope it doesn't work like that.

Alas, we must wait for some lucky (unlucky?) Paladin to obtain it and test it. Hopefully it's a Horde Paladin just so both sides can be testing in one go.
#4232SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Sterlin
Is this the appropriate place to discuss the 51 point Ret Talent Tree leaked? War Tools :: Talent tree Pallly Tree

Please remove or move to another area if this is not the appropriate place to discuss this - thank you

Improved Crusader Strike (0/5) 45 point talent

Reduced the cooldown on CS by .5% seconds and increases the damage done by 10%

Aveging Zeal (0/3) 45 point talent

While under the effects of Avenging Wrath you attacks have a 16% chance of to generate another attack and also hit nearby enemies

Holy Wield (1) 50 point talent
* required 2-H weapon
Summons and Identical Weapon allowing you to dual wield for 20 seconds - 3 minute CD


Just looking at talents - this is some pure DPS burst

Yea - your right - these are all fakes ... my apologies - just getting a bit too excited - LOL

Last edited by Sterlin : 05/22/08 at 12:43 PM.
#4233SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Bryne
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Is this the appropriate place to discuss the 51 point Ret Talent Tree leaked?
Those would be fake, so, no.
#4234SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fiola
Mace specialization, Poleaxe specialization, and Sword specialization... someone really wants to be a MS warrior. = P


I've seen another set of talent trees that were verified by a guildy .... but they seem too surreal to be true, and I haven't heard from any other sources.
#4235SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sanies
Hello. This is my first post on these forums, although this topic has been a great help on my path to retribution ever since i was asked/hinted to go ret.

I've been meaning to post this for some time.

Im currently using a SoC and a [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] mostly because i havent been able to get my hands on a dst.

My concern is, is it worth swapping the figurine for a [Berserker's Call]?

The panther is basically 53+80=133ap when used on every cooldown, the zerker is 150ap. As the panther is on a 1.5min cd I can keep it on cooldown constantly and still use it with every aw I use, but with the berserkers call I'd have to either delay my aw to stack them or just use them separately.

I'm not quite sure which one of those I should use. To me they come out pretty much the same, I just dont trust my math skills.
#4236SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sanies View Post
My concern is, is it worth swapping the figurine for a [Berserker's Call]?
Yes.

Next time, try consulting Rawr.

As a matter of fact, Avitus if you read this, how's the progress coming on the new post?
#4237SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
I've seen another set of talent trees that were verified by a guildy .... but they seem too surreal to be true, and I haven't heard from any other sources.
Just to nip this in the bud:

THERE ARE NO PALADIN TALENTS IN THE CURRENT ALPHA BUILD. EVERYTHING YOU SEE IS FAKE.

Now on with the show.
#4238SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
Have been surfing through the last couple of pages, and been checking most of your armory's, and it made me wonder why so many sunwell raiding pallies use [Legguards of Endless Rage] over [Leggings of Divine Retribution] ? From what I've read, armor ignore can provide some really nice dps-increase once you get to stack it up.
#4239SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2c0rnflake
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
Have been surfing through the last couple of pages, and been checking most of your armory's, and it made me wonder why so many sunwell raiding pallies use [Legguards of Endless Rage] over [Leggings of Divine Retribution] ? From what I've read, armor ignore can provide some really nice dps-increase once you get to stack it up.
Sunwell gear lacks hit rating
#4240SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Hit rating. Sunwell gear has a big fat 0 of it.
#4241SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
That, and just keep in mind that only ~70% of our damage is affected by armor penetration, while 95%+ is typical for warriors and rogues.
#4242SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
That, and just keep in mind that only ~70% of our damage is affected by armor penetration, while 95%+ is typical for warriors and rogues.
Eh, if you're hit capped Divine Retribution kick the living daylights out of Endless Rage by a fairly large margin to begin with. Even with only 70-80% of our damage affected by armor ignoring 350 of it is a noticeable percentage increase.

By the way, has anyone noticed anything odd with Glancing Blows lately? My percentage seems much higher than usual (for a record high of 31% last night on Brut) and it seems a little strange.

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 05/22/08 at 1:50 PM.
#4243SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tyrael885
Im sorry if this was told a hundred times but i have to know the straight answere.
Is haste affect PPM?
#4244SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by tyrael885 View Post
Im sorry if this was told a hundred times but i have to know the straight answere.
Is haste affect PPM?
I don't know whether a Yes or No is an appropriate answer, but here it goes:

Haste will not make PPM affects proc more often.
#4245SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Hit rating. Sunwell gear has a big fat 0 of it.
Only the plate. I'm planning on wearing a lot of leather once sunwell is on farm.
#4246SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Only the plate. I'm planning on wearing a lot of leather once sunwell is on farm.
Yes, once Sunwell is on farm everyone will be switching to leather. Until then I'm pretty sure most guilds won't be letting Retribution Paladins steal gear from Rogues, so for now its a pretty moot argument.
#4247SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tyrael885
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I don't know whether a Yes or No is an appropriate answer, but here it goes:

Haste will not make PPM affects proc more often.
Your too cryptic
Could you please explain it a bit?
#4248SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fiola
Originally Posted by tyrael885 View Post
Your too cryptic
Could you please explain it a bit?
PPM is procs per minute.

The common consensus is that PPM is not affected by haste, so that PPM stays constant.


Summary: Does haste affect PPM? No.
#4249SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tombowlus
Howdy, folks. I just recently registered here, though I'll admit that I have been plundering the advice contained in these forums off and on for a while. My (new) main is my resto shammy, and my guild is currently working on MH/BT content. My former main (and a toon that I try to get into as much content as possible) is my ret pally (dwarf). I have T4 gear, plus some nice crafted items (Red Belt of Battle, Swiftsteel Bracers, Stormherald), and a few drops from ZA (chest from Eagle boss). I am hoping to get a new helm from either Mags or Mulgar, as I am stuck with a Ragesteel helm, atm.

So, my ability to see T5/T6 content is somewhat limited (though I do try to get in what I can), but I am running ZA on a regular basis. My main questions relate to which weapon to use, and which enchants. In addition to a Stormherald, I also have a World Breaker. Both have the savagery enchant. I am collecting badges, but a good ways away from the 150 needed for the axe (I just picked up the 60 badge ring).

In ZA, Gruul's Lair, Maggie, etc., should I be using Stormherald or World Breaker? And should I replace the savagery enchant with mongoose?

Thanks in advance for any feedback and advice. I have read through as much of this thread as I could, and I have used the search function, but my questions don't appear to have been answered fully, which is why I ask now. I have downloaded and played with Rawr, but to be honest, it's a little confusing for me.

P.S.
I sometimes have to respec Holy to get into raids, so if you check Hahrdi's armory, he might be in 'disguise' some of the time.
#4250SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
steal gear from Rogues
Id rather use sun motes on the leather gloves than the plate ones.
#4251SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sayris
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
Have been surfing through the last couple of pages, and been checking most of your armory's, and it made me wonder why so many sunwell raiding pallies use [Legguards of Endless Rage] over [Leggings of Divine Retribution] ? From what I've read, armor ignore can provide some really nice dps-increase once you get to stack it up.
Because they won't drop!

Last night I encountered what I figure is a graphical bug, but I want to make sure it is just that before I forget about it. If someone else judges crusader on a mob and then I overwrite it I often see two JotC debuffs on the mob (Don't ask why someone else was judging it!). I assume it's just a graphical thing (One debuff gives the extra crit while the other gives the spell damage buff) rather than giving double spell damage bonuses, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask before I investigate.
#4252SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Sayris View Post
Last night I encountered what I figure is a graphical bug, but I want to make sure it is just that before I forget about it. If someone else judges crusader on a mob and then I overwrite it I often see two JotC debuffs on the mob (Don't ask why someone else was judging it!). I assume it's just a graphical thing (One debuff gives the extra crit while the other gives the spell damage buff) rather than giving double spell damage bonuses, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask before I investigate.
I don't think its a bug. Unless they have Imp JotC as well, they are technically different judgements. If you were both applying JoW to the mob or whatever, one would overwrite the other.
#4253SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2osmigos
Originally Posted by Sayris View Post
Because they won't drop!

Last night I encountered what I figure is a graphical bug, but I want to make sure it is just that before I forget about it. If someone else judges crusader on a mob and then I overwrite it I often see two JotC debuffs on the mob (Don't ask why someone else was judging it!). I assume it's just a graphical thing (One debuff gives the extra crit while the other gives the spell damage buff) rather than giving double spell damage bonuses, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask before I investigate.
It is indeed a graphical bug that's been around since the start of TBC.
#4254SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Honestly, I'm not too upset about a 6 dps loss for more mana returned due to JoW procs.
Yea that was a side remark in brackets for SoB users :P For SoC, 14 DPS loss is quiet hefty, especially considering how close the pvp weapon becomes for us now (S4 sword).

Having the end of game two hander very close to the Season 4 sword for PvE does not sound too great to me.


Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Yes.

Next time, try consulting Rawr.

As a matter of fact, Avitus if you read this, how's the progress coming on the new post?
Zurm, I don't think his question was Rawr related.

Yes, Berserker's Call > jewelcrafting trinket on paper, however his specific question was related towards being able to use the "on use" effect with AW every time with the jewelcrafting trinket (where as this is not possible with Berserker's Call without delaying abilities), which is something Rawr does *not* actually model.

Maybe someone has time to do some napkin math on this here.

Again I'm currently (till June 2nd) under a lot of exam pressure, no new post until then, though additionally at the moment there seem to be quiet a few issues that I'd like to have ironed out before we make a new thread (SoC/WF mechanics mainly, any more thoughts on SoB/SoC twisting?).



Originally Posted by tombowlus View Post
In ZA, Gruul's Lair, Maggie, etc., should I be using Stormherald or World Breaker? And should I replace the savagery enchant with mongoose?

...

I have downloaded and played with Rawr, but to be honest, it's a little confusing for me.
??

The program is pretty self explanatory, I fail to see how you can't find the answers to your questions if you spent more than 10 seconds using it.
#4255SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Morindor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Yes, Berserker's Call > jewelcrafting trinket on paper, however his specific question was related towards being able to use the "on use" effect with AW every time with the jewelcrafting trinket (where as this is not possible with Berserker's Call without delaying abilities), which is something Rawr does *not* actually model.

Maybe someone has time to do some napkin math on this here.
Lets say these are 5 minute fights and the first time you blow your cds is at 30 sec.:

- Berserker's call -> 585 ap for 20 sec (x2), 90 ap for 260 sec.
Avg: 156ap for the fight waiting for AW cd to pop the trinket (147ap if you don't)
- Shadowsong Panther -> 520ap for 15 sec (x2)., 400ap for 15 sec., 80ap for 255 sec.
Avg: 140ap

I think this illustrates which should be better pretty much all the time. Even poping Beserkers Call without waiting for AW to cool down you get more dps with it. The Panther would win out if you poped your cool downs for the first time at 15 sec, as this would result in an average of 160ap for the fight. So the panther can be better but it is based on fight length primarily, and if it favors the Panthers CD time or not (this is just pure gambling with your dps in my opinion).

Edit: Also the advantage of an extra Panther cd is reduced as the fight goes on until Berserker overtakes it once and for all.
#4256SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Already did the napkin math, its never better! Being a JC this was one of the first things I checked. Morindor did the work for me
#4257SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sterlin
Question about the Hard Khorium Band

I don't see many of you guys wearing it ... although according to Rawr it is #2 ring - Is it something I should go for?
#4258SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Question about the Hard Khorium Band

I don't see many of you guys wearing it ... although according to Rawr it is #2 ring - Is it something I should go for?
I think that is due to just how scarce patterns are in Sunwell. We've been in there since day one and so far have only had the healing ring, plate DPS chest, boomkin goggles and a single DPS robe pattern drop so far. Of course, my guild has legendary problems with RNG (still no necklaces off Supremus, going on 7 months now!) so maybe my view is skewed.
#4259SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Obbee
I just did 2143 dps on brutallus as alliance and without heroism (Wow Web Stats). Was in a normal ench/rogue/rogue/warrior group, and got switched for a hunter to the tank group on heroism then back in to the melee group, It was a pretty fast kill 4,48.
#4260SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Obbee
I just did 2143 dps on brutallus as alliance and without heroism (Wow Web Stats). Was in a normal ench/rogue/rogue/warrior group, and got switched for a hunter to the tank group on heroism then back in to the melee group, It was a pretty fast kill 4,48.
#4261SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Question about the Hard Khorium Band

I don't see many of you guys wearing it ... although according to Rawr it is #2 ring - Is it something I should go for?
My guild has probably the worst luck in the universe regarding trash drops. We are lucky to see 3 sunmotes off trash in a week, and have gotten, get this, ZERO recipes off trash. We've been on M'uru for 2 weeks, if that helps you see where we are at. Is this level of loot typical? No. Does it suck? Yes.

I have low hopes of seeing the Plate dps engineering helm (lol like I ever have a chance of seeing the helm off kiljaeden) or the JC neck pattern.

Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
I just did 2143 dps on brutallus as alliance and without heroism (Wow Web Stats). Was in a normal ench/rogue/rogue/warrior group, and got switched for a hunter to the tank group on heroism then back in to the melee group, It was a pretty fast kill 4,48.
Wow, you got really lucky on crits there. Curious, how much personal armor penetration did you have (was it the same as your armory?)? You're attacks were landing fairly hard.

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I think that is due to just how scarce patterns are in Sunwell. We've been in there since day one and so far have only had the healing ring, plate DPS chest, boomkin goggles and a single DPS robe pattern drop so far. Of course, my guild has legendary problems with RNG (still no necklaces off Supremus, going on 7 months now!) so maybe my view is skewed.
For over 8.5 months now, RoS has *STILL* not dropped Dreadboots. I don't need them anymore, but I think that's a fairly significant amount of time.
#4262SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Obbee
906 armor penetration and using mongoose, we have imp expose armor and a survival hunter.
#4263SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sterlin
WoW we were in Sunwell last night and clearing trash to Kalec and got the First Weapon, the BoP DPS neck pattern, the DPS ring pattern, and 6 Sunmotes

So, the Hard Khorium Ring is something that I should definitely get made? I'm currently using the Champion Ring and Angel ring.

On the other hand, I've been doing BT for what 2 1/2 months and NOT ONE aggressor ring.
#4264SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
WoW we were in Sunwell last night and clearing trash to Kalec and got the First Weapon, the BoP DPS neck pattern, the DPS ring pattern, and 6 Sunmotes

So, the Hard Khorium Ring is something that I should definitely get made? I'm currently using the Champion Ring and Angel ring.

On the other hand, I've been doing BT for what 2 1/2 months and NOT ONE aggressor ring.
Technically speaking, [Stormrage Signet Ring] and [Band of Ruinous Delight] are the absolute end-game for me. I will probably forgo the band in liu of the [Hard Khorium Band] due to the neglible difference and lack of "competition" (sunmotes vs a rare drop).
#4265SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
another gear question: why are so many sunwell-raiding ret pallies using the SSO-rep necklace over [Choker of Serrated Blades]?
#4266SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Shalymar
Back to seal twisting:

I went back some 10+ pages and read all the post about seal twisting/juggling but I wanted to make sure I understand how this works because when I have tried to do this, it doesn’t seem correct.

Here is what I do

1) Active a Seal (SotC or SoCom)
2) Cast Judgement
3) Cast Seal of Command
4) Cast CS
5) After my first animated swing
6) Cast Seal of Blood
7) When Judgement timer is up, judge SoB, reseal Seal of Command.
Repeat steps 4-7
#4267SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sterlin
I have another fundemental question

How does one evaluate Haste vs Armor Penetration. Acording to Rawr graph - Haste stays relatively linear whereas Armor penetration has an upward movement with more. Most of sunwell loot and new badge stuff is either Haste or Armor penetration.. How does Rawr equate DPS for Armor Pen and Haste?

Haste = How much DPS per X
Armor Penetration = How much DPS per X

clearly there are some strong variables like boss armor, etc ...
#4268SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
I have another fundemental question

How does one evaluate Haste vs Armor Penetration.
Honestly, there is a lot to take into account. The best I can say is to use and abuse Rawr for now... I try my best to keep it as accurate and up-to-date as possible, so trust it

Originally Posted by Xiras
another gear question: why are so many sunwell-raiding ret pallies using the SSO-rep necklace over [Choker of Serrated Blades]?
Because Hyjal hates me. Also the proc is REALLY nice.
#4269SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
another gear question: why are so many sunwell-raiding ret pallies using the SSO-rep necklace over [Choker of Serrated Blades]?
The one neck we have so many of our Resto Shamans have started using them for off sets...

The SSO neck is actually very over-itemized for its ilevel. Its better than the SSC trash neck and very close to the Supremus neck (aside from the hit rating) for both Scryers and Aldor. Its a very nice necklace.

EDIT: There is a screenshot of the new ranks of our abilities floating around. The next rank of Judgement of Wisdom (rank V) will be returning 143 mana per hit. On top of that the final rank of Blessing of Wisdom (IX) is 91 Mp5 (/sex). I'll do some numbers for it later. Oh yeah, and Hammer of Wrath is getting a massive 200 damage boost. God what a pointless ability...

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 05/23/08 at 11:52 AM.
#4270SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The SSO neck is actually very over-itemized for its ilevel. Its better than the SSC trash neck and very close to the Supremus neck (aside from the hit rating) for both Scryers and Aldor. Its a very nice necklace.

EDIT: There is a screenshot of the new ranks of our abilities floating around. The next rank of Judgement of Wisdom (rank V) will be returning 143 mana per hit. On top of that the final rank of Blessing of Wisdom (IX) is 91 Mp5 (/sex). I'll do some numbers for it later. Oh yeah, and Hammer of Wrath is getting a massive 200 damage boost. God what a pointless ability...

The SSO neck is great for buff sides. The Scryer proc scales with buffs, since it counts as a elemental melee attack it is affected by imp Sanc Aura, Vengence, AW, etc. and the Aldor buff of more attack power is good too. Over-itemized.


Nice that Wisdom is being buffed, BoW is 109 mp5 with the talent, over a 100% increase in effectiveness. Hammer is still good for PvP or for Holy Pally dps.
#4271SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
If they'd only not let it reset your swingtimer...
#4272SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Obbee View Post
I just did 2143 dps on brutallus as alliance and without heroism (Wow Web Stats). Was in a normal ench/rogue/rogue/warrior group, and got switched for a hunter to the tank group on heroism then back in to the melee group, It was a pretty fast kill 4,48.
How did you use 7 Haste pots, and 3 AWs in 4:48?

edit: DST and Haste potions. Check

Also, early in the log it says you used AW twice in > 1sec so thats clearly a bug

Very nice work man! Now I need to drug a glaives rogue to get in BS and better totems/Unleashed Rage.

On a side note, there are ppl on our server with the ring pattern, but sunmotes are the constraint. Retribution is kinda last in line given that we dont do the best DPS in the raid, and our buffs dont scale with our performance (see shadow priests, expose weakness) so I can that being a big reason why we aren't sporting shiny bling rings. Waiting for farm =/

Last edited by Saltycracker : 05/23/08 at 12:26 PM.
#4273SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Mearis
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
How did you use 7 Haste pots, and 3 AWs in 4:48?
Haste can be the DST proc. 3 AW I have nfc though.
#4274SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Now that I have 4pc with sunwell belt and boots, Hammer of Wrath is kinda fun to use on Illlidan and his fire elementals. I think I crit last night for 2500. Still bad to use when you are hitting the boss with your weapon, but nothing to sneeze at when you're trapped at range. Felmyst comes to mind.
#4275SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Now that I have 4pc with sunwell belt and boots, Hammer of Wrath is kinda fun to use on Illlidan and his fire elementals. I think I crit last night for 2500. Still bad to use when you are hitting the boss with your weapon, but nothing to sneeze at when you're trapped at range. Felmyst comes to mind.
My mana pool unbuffed is now down to 4700 due to replacement of most of the true "paladin" gear with SWP plate. If I have 440 mana per cast to throw around for a measily 1.2k non crit I'm doing something wrong.
#4276SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
My mana pool unbuffed is now down to 4700 due to replacement of most of the true "paladin" gear with SWP plate. If I have 440 mana per cast to throw around for a measily 1.2k non crit I'm doing something wrong.
Well on phase 2 Illidan you do have 440 mana to throw around, as you should be pretty much full all the time because of SA healing.
#4277SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Well on phase 2 Illidan you do have 440 mana to throw around, as you should be pretty much full all the time because of SA healing.
I'm usually dead during P2 because our first elemental tank is a downy (not the fabric softener). Some of you may know him... "Deep", maker of Deep Feral videos. But yea, usually a mixture of a quick position problems and unlucky timing gets a few melee killed, and I normally get B-ressed towards the end of p2. I'm just used to it, so maybe my view is skewed.
#4278SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
My mana pool unbuffed is now down to 4700 due to replacement of most of the true "paladin" gear with SWP plate. If I have 440 mana per cast to throw around for a measily 1.2k non crit I'm doing something wrong.
Its not the size of the mana pool, its how well you can regenerate it.

Hammer of Wrath is still pants on head retarded, but its a decent novelty option in PVE.
#4279SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Its not the size of the mana pool, its how well you can regenerate it.
I see what you did here! Yea, I understand what you are saying... it is *extremely* situational, but slightly more than totally useless. That being said, our 4pc bonus is still absolutely retarded, I can't believe blizzard genuinely thought 4pc bonuses like ours (and that of resto druids) are in any way, shape, or form even close to what other classes get. Why didn't they just give us more judgement/CS dmg, or lower the cooldown of something? We don't have a single talent that improves hammer of wrath directly as ret, I can't see the point of it.
#4280SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arikah
I have a question regarding Imp Sotc/Jotc...

Looking at our wws parses every week, i feel like the 3% crit portion isn't even working, and others in the raid have said the same thing - i've even gone as far as the old blasted lands test and it fails to boost my crit to where it should be in theory after 100 swings. I'll use one of our warlock's stats as an example: 95 shadow bolts at 33% crit. With his gear, he is at 25% unbuffed crit, +8% from talents - that's our 33% right there. Seemingly no effect from jotc...

What do you think it is? Bad RNG? The way wws parses things? Or is it possible that imp sotc/jotc is broken somehow?
#4281SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I can't believe blizzard genuinely thought 4pc bonuses like ours (and that of resto druids) are in any way, shape, or form even close to what other classes get.
Because BC was already delayed and retribution was an afterthought. We waited what, 3 patches before it became arguably viable (6 sec CS, and threat reduction) as a DPS class. Drysc said it would break the game to change our bonus as well as our socket bonuses, so we just gotta swallow that bitter pill. It is a useful class as it stands right now, but not without its flaws; we have a niche and fill it nicely but forget about 10 mans god forbid heroics. If Ret doesn't get some sort of tweaks in WoLK, Ret is pretty much restricted to 25mans, which is going to make for some sad retnoobs that have to spec healbot.

If blizzard drops the ball in WoLK for Ret (RAID BUFF SCALING PLEASE!!!), I'm planning on switching mains.

Sorry if this sounds like QQ, but it goes through my head every time I log in.
#4282SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I'm usually dead during P2 because our first elemental tank is a downy (not the fabric softener). Some of you may know him... "Deep", maker of Deep Feral videos. But yea, usually a mixture of a quick position problems and unlucky timing gets a few melee killed, and I normally get B-ressed towards the end of p2. I'm just used to it, so maybe my view is skewed.
Heh, there used to be a Warrior on Draka with the name of "Deep" who also had a lot of problems. Maybe its something about the name.

Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Because BC was already delayed and retribution was an afterthought. We waited what, 3 patches before it became arguably viable (6 sec CS, and threat reduction) as a DPS class. Drysc said it would break the game to change our bonus as well as our socket bonuses, so we just gotta swallow that bitter pill. It is a useful class as it stands right now, but not without its flaws; we have a niche and fill it nicely but forget about 10 mans god forbid heroics. If Ret doesn't get some sort of tweaks in WoLK, Ret is pretty much restricted to 25mans, which is going to make for some sad retnoobs that have to spec healbot.

If blizzard drops the ball in WoLK for Ret (RAID BUFF SCALING PLEASE!!!), I'm planning on switching mains.
I've been playing Daz for so long (vanillia public beta, woot) I was planning on trying a new class for Wrath anyway unless something really spectacular is given to pallys (*coughHolyStrikecough*). But yes, we definitely need more sustained personal DPS and mana regeneration (among a few other things) without full raid buffs to be viable in smaller brackets, especially now that most raids are going to be 10-mans.
#4283SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
Because BC was already delayed and retribution was an afterthought. We waited what, 3 patches before it became arguably viable (6 sec CS, and threat reduction) as a DPS class. Drysc said it would break the game to change our bonus as well as our socket bonuses, so we just gotta swallow that bitter pill. It is a useful class as it stands right now, but not without its flaws; we have a niche and fill it nicely but forget about 10 mans god forbid heroics. If Ret doesn't get some sort of tweaks in WoLK, Ret is pretty much restricted to 25mans, which is going to make for some sad retnoobs that have to spec healbot.

If blizzard drops the ball in WoLK for Ret (RAID BUFF SCALING PLEASE!!!), I'm planning on switching mains.

Sorry if this sounds like QQ, but it goes through my head every time I log in.
I understand why it couldn't be changed, but who was the special kid who thought it would be good in the first place? How does HoW damage compare even remotely to more shadow bolt, bloodthirst/MS, or steady shot damage?
#4284SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2sag_ich_nicht
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
I have a question regarding Imp Sotc/Jotc...

Looking at our wws parses every week, i feel like the 3% crit portion isn't even working, and others in the raid have said the same thing - i've even gone as far as the old blasted lands test and it fails to boost my crit to where it should be in theory after 100 swings. I'll use one of our warlock's stats as an example: 95 shadow bolts at 33% crit. With his gear, he is at 25% unbuffed crit, +8% from talents - that's our 33% right there. Seemingly no effect from jotc...

What do you think it is? Bad RNG? The way wws parses things? Or is it possible that imp sotc/jotc is broken somehow?
Well I will be damned.

Of course a 100 hits parse is not nearly enough to prove anything because it might well be still within standard deviation, but it is suspicious enough. Someone care to do a larger parse and throw this at the US bug reports forum?
#4285SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kadrok
Originally Posted by sag_ich_nicht View Post
Well I will be damned.

Of course a 100 hits parse is not nearly enough to prove anything because it might well be still within standard deviation, but it is suspicious enough. Someone care to do a larger parse?
I'll try running some longer tests over the weekend and see how it looks.
#4286SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
Seemingly no effect from jotc...

What do you think it is? Bad RNG? The way wws parses things? Or is it possible that imp sotc/jotc is broken somehow?
When you said he gets 8% crit from talents, do you realize that 3% of that shows on the character sheet (5% is only on Destro spells)?


However, it could just be a case of the RNG. Imp JotC is working at least on normal level mobs as of yesterday.
#4287SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2makotospeaks
Question about hit rateing,
I recently upgrade mah pants, and in the process lost 23 hit rateing. I was at a square 9.01% hit prior so this is a problem. Currently i dont have any other worthy gear to put on with hit rateing and so i plan to use +hit food buff for the time being untill i do get one of the many upgrades i want that have +hit. however that still puts me down 3 hit rateing, which puts my hit rateing just below 9%......does the game use that 8.87% rateing(i think it was) or will it round it off at 8%, makeing the food buff wasted?
#4288SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
There's no rounding. It will use whatever exact value it's at.

3 hit rating off the cap is not a big deal, but you might see a miss every long while. It comes down to personal preference, I prefer sacrificing a few stats from a gem for example and being 3 over the cap than 3 under, but it doesn't really matter.
#4289SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nymphere
Hello fellow Retadins! I am a first time poster but a long time reader of these forums. I'll give the obligatory nod of appreciation to bellator/anarkii/zurm for their fantastic work, as well as all the contributors to this thread.

My guild is currently working on M'uru, but I've been temporarily sidelined as we try to maximize our dps. I was slightly bummed out, but I got excited when I saw this -

Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Apparently, Vindication does work on the blood elves (the mobs the melee would be attacking), and it DOES lower the mobs total hp. By how much I'm not sure, but when the mob goes from 97% --> full numerous times you can rest assured its because of lowered HP and not heals.
However, my guild still isn't sold on the idea that bringing me is warranted over another melee dps, and neither am I frankly. I've been trying to gather some numbers of my own, but I haven't been able to get in to test real data on M'uru adds again. Are there any paladins who've been able to personally see the effect? Afaik the fury mages have ~ 110k hp and the berserkers ~130k, but the amount of hp actually affected by the Vindication proc is what I'm after.
#4290SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Assuming 130k hp, assuming your first attack procs Vindication, you would have to know the base HP as well as the stamina of the mob.

Assuming the mobs are like 72 Warriors, they would have about 6000 base HP and the rest stamina, so about 12,400 stamina, removing 1860 stamina via Vindication.

6000 + 10*(12400* ( 1 - .15 )) = 111,400 health. So your attack removed 18,600 health, however some damage would be done the same time you procced Vindication, so the health removal would be lower in practice. If the mob had agility/strength it would lower its dodge/dps as well.


Note many assumptions were made, and even if they were true it doesn't seem like it is all that great, but if you had spare points (didn't have to get improved Might) looks fair.
#4291SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kadrok
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
I have a question regarding Imp Sotc/Jotc...

Looking at our wws parses every week, i feel like the 3% crit portion isn't even working
Ok, I went and hit some Servants in Blasted Lands, both with and without Imp JoTC up.

With Imp JoTC:

6461 hits
3291 crits
__________
33.75% crit rate


Without JoTC:

5044 hits
2282 crits
__________
31.15% crit


2.6% difference

Although it's not the most scientific approach, I think we can assume that the last .4% difference would materialize with a larger data pool. My poor weapon has taken enough of a beating.
#4292SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
I now have to choose between [Angelista's Revenge], or have the [Hard Khorium Band] crafted. Could anyone help me in my choise, and tell me why I should pick that one ?
thanks in advance
#4293SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
I now have to choose between [Angelista's Revenge], or have the [Hard Khorium Band] crafted. Could anyone help me in my choise, and tell me why I should pick that one ?
thanks in advance
Rawr can help you choose. Rawr - Release: Rawr b14.1
#4294SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Carmillia
I am currently using the Mongoose enchant on my weapon, and I must say that when I checked the +speed from the procc, I wasn't really amused with a 0.05 speed increase. This really got me thinking if the 120 agi (132 with BoK), which is ~5% crit, is worth taking over Executioner.

Anybody has got some exact numbers of how much you damage will increase during the procc from Executioner?
I know that as a B'Elf retri haste scales better with SoB (and ofc so does melee crit) but I am currently sitting at quite a nice crit-rating already (about 37% raid-buffed) and the 0.05 speed increase isn't even worth mentioning. I don't think SoB is migated by armor, but normal swings and CS are, so 870 ArP looks a lot better then 132 agi and a 0.05 speed increase. Especially if Executioner procc the same ammount of times in comparison to Mongoose? I might be wrong though. With the exception of the badges ring, I have no ArP on my gear (Gurtogg dropped his damn staff every week for crying out loud, no ring/legs for me) with the exception of the badge ring.

Im not the kind of person that sees a couple people with an item or enchant, and automatically assume it is the best for me. However, I am not the kind of person also that can come up with the numbers to proove which is better, and why.

On a side-not, how is the Crusader enchant valued?
#4295SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Eathir
Carmillia,

The discussion and comparison of the two enchants have been handled in great detail a few pages back (search engine is your friend). But if memory serves, Mongoose is better for almost every fight if you dont have alot of ArmPen already on your gear, due to how ArmPen scales. If you have close to 0 ArmPen, moongoose ought to be the better choice, with more ArmPen it becomes a tougher call.
#4296SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gromdal
Ret raid composition - we had an interesting setup last week where we went caster heavy due to lack of signups resulting in the melee group looking like this:

Ret Pala/Feral Druid/Rogue/Enh Shaman/Hunter.

The general consensus was that in this situation, GoA would give more dps to the group overall and that the retribution dps should be sacrificed (obviously the rogue can just apply a poison MH and the ret can use an adamantite stone), but I was under the impression that if there were at least 2 melee in the group then WF would always be the stronger, especially if one was using a 2h weapon? As a former paladin and now hunter I don't mind not having GoA, but looking at WWS it seemed to be showing only one WF attack every 30 seconds on most Hyjal boss encounters for our ret pala (Cathrynn).

Wow Web Stats

and

Wow Web Stats
#4297SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Tell your shaman to learn how to totem twist.

Totem Twisting: An often used, over stylized word for something very simple: Basically it's pressing a macro every 8 seconds, not unlike Seal + Judge, to keep up GoA 80% of the time and WF 100% of the time.
#4298SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Totem twisting is really easy with castsequence:

/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air

There really is no excuse not to twist, macros are great.


For enchants, Rawr is great to show you the value of each one. Crusader is *never* the right answer.
#4299SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Rawr can help you choose. Rawr - Release: Rawr b14.1
Tyvm.
I'm a bit confused about how to read the program tho.
If I understand it correctly, [Justicar Shoulderplates] is better then [Lightbringer Shoulderbraces]

It also says [Girdle of the Lightbearer] has only a score of 27,70, while I personally think it is a great belt.
Do I read it wrong, or is the program not correct at some points?
#4300SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
Tyvm.
I'm a bit confused about how to read the program tho.
If I understand it correctly, [Justicar Shoulderplates] is better then [Item 'lightbringer shoulderplates' not found!]
Depends on your situation. For example, if Justicar's has gems that let you meet your meta requirement and lightbringer don't, or there's a set bonus involved that is better, perhaps. You'll have to be alot more specific about your situation, and make sure you're completely filling out the character, in order for us to help you.
#4301SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
well, I'm already hitcapped if that's what you mean. That's why I fail to understand why rawr says T4>t6 for shoulders.
#4302SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arikah
it's supposed to take into account everything, for example you would lose hit from the t4 shoulders thus breaking your hitcap. If you fill out the gem slots with hit gems or maintain hit some other way it'll go way up.
#4303SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Eathir
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Depends on your situation. For example, if Justicar's has gems that let you meet your meta requirement and lightbringer don't, or there's a set bonus involved that is better, perhaps. You'll have to be alot more specific about your situation, and make sure you're completely filling out the character, in order for us to help you.
Also, if you are hitcapped with the Justicar shoulders and you go beneath hitcap by equiping the Lightbringer ones that will change the rating of them.

edit: Seems more then me are onl at the same time answering
#4304SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Crigily
Sorry, I know the weapon enchants thing has been beat into the ground, but I don't think this issue was directly covered (I apologize if it was).

Is the increased weapon speed buff on Mongoose a haste or does it behave like SotC (lowers weapon damage to give you the same dps at the increased speed)? My research from wowwiki, thottbot, and wowhead indicated that it is like SoTC and not a true haste. If this is true, I can't see how mongoose is even better than +35 Agility, as all the "haste" would do is give you an extra swing with the ~5% increased crit chance. My research also indicated that Mongoose was 1 ppm, which means that once every 20 minutes you would get an extra crit (5% = 1/20).

If mongoose is only 1 ppm, the 120 agility works out to a static 30 agility. I don't see the value of 30 ag + 1 crit every 20 minutes.

I'm sure the ppm of mongoose was discussed in here, but i didn't see it in my quick scan. I'm also pretty sure that all dps calculators assume the haste is a true haste, but does anyone have any data to support that, because everything I have seen suggests otherwise.

On a side note: If the haste does lower weapon damage like SotC, would the damage from CS and SoC also go down? I consider it likely as they just fixed CS to not be adversely affected my SotC.
#4305SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Prinsesa
SOTC is the only "haste" effect that lowers weapon damage.

Haste gained from haste rating, haste gained from Mongoose, haste gained from Bloodlust, all other types of haste all decrease your swing speed without affecting your damage per swing, effectively increasing your DPS.
#4306SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
Tyvm.
If I understand it correctly, [Justicar Shoulderplates] is better then [Lightbringer Shoulderbraces]

It also says [Girdle of the Lightbearer] has only a score of 27,70, while I personally think it is a great belt.
Do I read it wrong, or is the program not correct at some points?
T4 is better than T6 because you are under the hit cap.

On my Rawr, that Girdle is 37, while a decent score, means there are many belts that are better (the 21 int isn't that useful). Remember to enter buffs, they make a big difference.
#4307SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Crigily
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
SOTC is the only "haste" effect that lowers weapon damage.

Haste gained from haste rating, haste gained from Mongoose, haste gained from Bloodlust, all other types of haste all decrease your swing speed without affecting your damage per swing, effectively increasing your DPS.
I just thought of a test to prove it to myself too. SotC lowers your weapon damage on the character sheet, mongoose does not. So I guess those sites just have incorrect information, not terribly surprising.
#4308SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Trakor
Brutts

Hi again. So Oceanic servers finally got stable, and since then we got 2 Kalecgos kills and tried Brutts a bit. Last week, we reached the enrage but we had too many healers. This week we are trying with only 7 healers but the tanks are still dying.

Here's a WWS report of our longest attempts last night: Trakor - WWS

Could you guys please look at it and tell me what I personally could be doing better? My dps that night was only around 1500 or so. DPSers weren't poting and going all out, since we are still trying to reach the enrage time, but I dont see how I could reach 1800+ dps just by poting and using max rank consecration, so I'm probably doing something wrong.

Thanks for any help you guys can offer in regards to my own performance or anybodyelse's if you spot something wrong there too. Cheers
#4309SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Aramul
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
(Base + JotC*.95 + SpD * .95 * Downrank) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122.

The number mismatch is from placement of JotC. I know it's not affected by downranking, is it also unaffected by our damage multipliers? That damage (~83) should be dropped from both estimates in that case.
Originally Posted by Fiola View Post
It's not affected by multipliers, so yeah.

Corrected equation:
(Base + SpD * .95 * Downrank) * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.03 * 1.122 + JotC*.95
Is anyone still actively maintaining Rawr.Retribution? I was looking through the source, and found it was making this same error. That is, it is multiplying the JotC holy damage bonus by other damage multipliers when it should not be. Additionally, the damage contribution of Consecration is being based on a 8 second cooldown, when this is impossible in a real cycle for the same reasons that 2 points in Improved Judgement do not help.

In general, the current Rawr model is (slightly) overvaluing the damage contribution of spells (Judgement, Consecration, Exorcism).
#4310SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ragnor
That would be Zurm, it's possibly already on his list of fixes. He last posted in this thread about 3 days ago I'm sure he'll see notice your post sooner or later. Might be worth sending him a pm though just in case.
#4311SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Ragnor
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
Here's a WWS report of our longest attempts last night: Trakor - WWS

Could you guys please look at it and tell me what I personally could be doing better? My dps that night was only around 1500 or so. DPSers weren't poting and going all out, since we are still trying to reach the enrage time, but I dont see how I could reach 1800+ dps just by poting and using max rank consecration, so I'm probably doing something wrong.

Thanks for any help you guys can offer in regards to my own performance or anybodyelse's if you spot something wrong there too. Cheers
You can really do this yourself.. all you have to do is take the fight time and work out how many crusader strikes, consecration's and exorcism's you should fit in that time frame.

I'm not going to do the math for you but my gut feeling is you're not getting as much damage out of crusader strike as you should, SoC was a larger % of your damage breakdown than CS. Normally it's other other way around unless you get lucky with SoC procs.

Try comparing to other Alliance Brutallus wws logs, eg:
Obbee: 1800 dps - Wow Web Stats

Obbee's abilities are hitting for 400-500 damage more than yours on average.

Last edited by Ragnor : 05/27/08 at 6:08 AM.
#4312SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Trakor
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
You can really do this yourself.. all you have to do is take the fight time and work out how many crusader strikes, consecration's and exorcism's you should fit in that time frame.

I'm not going to do the math for you but my gut feeling is you're not getting as much damage out of crusader strike as you should, SoC was a larger % of your damage breakdown than CS. Normally it's other other way around unless you get lucky with SoC procs.

Try comparing to other Alliance Brutallus wws logs, eg:
Obbee: 1800 dps - Wow Web Stats

Obbee's abilities are hitting for 400-500 damage more than yours on average.

Thanks for the reply. Obbee does have better gear, he was poted and he had much more mana regen, so I can see why he did more dps and why he was hiting harder than me.

In regards to what you said, my CS and JoC had very low crit rate (bad luck with RNG). That fight went on for 4 min, or 240 secs. This gives me time for 40 CS. I had only 34 CS.... but CS is my number 1 priority and I really dont see how I lost so much time.

Would lag be the blame factor here? I'm in New Zealand, playing on Oceanic server and on average, my latency is at 600ms. Giving CS a cd of 6.6secs (factoring in latency), in 240 secs I could have done 36 swings. If latency is partially behind the reason, those 34 CS swings doesnt seem too bad anymore.

Compared to Obbee, I could do better on my consecration, since his one was ticking on avg by 45 more dmg than mine (result of the higher mana regen he had, so less downranking). Obbee judged on avg every 12.5 secs, and I judged every 12.6 secs, so thats not too bad either. He used exorcism every 40.5 secs and I used exorcism every 34 secs.

In the end, my rotation is about giving priority to CS, then exorcism, then JoC and then consecration. Seems like I can do a lot better on CS and JoC if latency isnt resposible for the delays and time lost. And if latency is to blame, then it comes down to gear and pots/consumables. Am I missing anything or does this sound about right? Yeah, im not used to analysing WWS reports that much in detail .

But yeah, thanks for the help so far . Let me know if my latency is affecting my performance or not and if you spot anything wrong with this post.

Last edited by Trakor : 05/27/08 at 7:15 AM.
#4313SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Ragnor
Latency and FPS do make a huge difference in my experience. There was a large discussion about oceanic players and latency here: Server locations, Latency & Australia

The nagle algorithm (Nagle's algorithm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was turned off in the client in a patch. Testing proves it's not turned off on the server end . People playing from outside the US on US servers will still get double the latency you would normally expect from a US server due to delayed TCP acknowledgements (600ms instead of 300ms, 500ms instead of 250ms etc).

I happen to also live in NZ but I get 150-250ms on Blackrock using Telstra ADSL and connecting via our guilds ssh tunnel. If you are not using a ssh tunnelling service you definitely should.. there are a lot of alternatives: Lower Ping, Ping Better, WowTunnels ...most have free trials.

It's a night and day difference playing on 600ms vs 200ms, you can never go back.

Last edited by Ragnor : 05/27/08 at 8:52 AM.
#4314SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Sterlin
Couple of thoughts Trakor

Out of your best attempt on Brutalis at 4 minutes - you could have a potential 40 Crusader Strikes - you got 25 - so , givien global cooldowns and such you could firm that up a bit.

The other is exorcism - you missed 14% of them and 9.9% of the damage was mitigated

I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit

My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool

So, it looks to me like you are getting caught on managing your cooldowns and global cooldowns and the rest is just lucky crits / procs

Last edited by Sterlin : 05/27/08 at 12:14 PM.
#4315SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
Some of us have to wear warrior gear, because T6 is so terrible compared to other options (<3 haste). And also, while the SoB knockback helps... a calculation far earlier in the thread proved the amount of mana regened was insignificant. If you look at my WWS reports, you will see that even on high AOE damage fights, I won't get more than 500-600 mana back over an alliance paladin, and since my gear already has far less int you really can't use that arguement. While 500-600 mana isn't trivial, its still not something to write home about and certainly won't make a difference in a fight where you're getting 4k mana back from JoW and a total of 2.5k from SA otherwise (point here: int isn't bad, but don't sacrifice dps for it).

To give you an idea... on RoS phase 1, I take a total of about 2.5-3k knockback damage for the whole phase, thats 250-300 mana healed from SA. Nothing too impressive. I think many alliance paladins make the mistake of grossly over-estimating the benefit of SoB recoil, and SoB in general for that matter. It's certainly better, but looking at Rawr its certainly not earthshattering.
#4316SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
The other is exorcism - you missed 14% of them and 9.9% of the damage was mitigated

I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit
Even when you factor resists, I find that exorcism has a higher damage per mana so I tend to favor it over consecrate. Consecrate is good low cost DPS, but if you can exorcise do so.
#4317SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Out of your best attempt on Brutalis at 4 minutes - you could have a potential 40 Crusader Strikes - you got 25 - so , givien global cooldowns and such you could firm that up a bit.
For any WWS analyzing of Crusader Strike you assume a 6.5 second cooldown to account for latency and slightly pushed GCD's.

You're also reading the WWS completely wrong, he had 33 Crusader Strikes out of a possible 37 which is actually very good.

And again, before posting in this thread learn to read a WWS.

Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
The other is exorcism - you missed 14% of them and 9.9% of the damage was mitigated

I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit
I ran the numbers for it a bit back and Exorcism is still better than Consecration regardless of resists.

Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
It takes 16 Intellect to give you 1 extra Crusader Strike. That 16 Strength on the item budget would increase the damage of all your Crusader Strikes by 9.8 raid buffed. There is a very good reason why we wear "warrior gear".
#4318SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Saltycracker
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I ran the numbers for it a bit back and Exorcism is still better than Consecration regardless of resists.
Assuming JotC and zero bonus spell damage:


DPM
Consecration Rank 1 1.4
Consecration Rank 2 1.2
Consecration Rank 3 1.2
Consecration Rank 4 1.2
Consecration Rank 5 1.2
Consecration Rank 6 1.1
Exorcism Rank 1 0.9
Exorcism Rank 2 1.0
Exorcism Rank 3 1.1
Exorcism Rank 4 1.2
Exorcism Rank 5 1.2
Exorcism Rank 6 1.3
Exorcism Rank 7 1.6

This table looks like crap but yea, max rank exorcism beats R1 Conc in terms of Damage Per Mana (DPM)

Last edited by Saltycracker : 05/27/08 at 1:27 PM.
#4319SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Trakor
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
I happen to also live in NZ but I get 150-250ms on Blackrock using Telstra ADSL and connecting via our guilds ssh tunnel. If you are not using a ssh tunnelling service you definitely should.. there are a lot of alternatives: Lower Ping, Ping Better, WowTunnels ...most have free trials.

It's a night and day difference playing on 600ms vs 200ms, you can never go back.
I've heard of people geting their account baned due to Lower Ping and other services like that, because Blizzard considers it a 3rd party software or something like that. Does anybody know anything else about that?

Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
Out of your best attempt on Brutalis at 4 minutes - you could have a potential 40 Crusader Strikes - you got 25 - so , givien global cooldowns and such you could firm that up a bit.
It was actually 25 hits + 1 miss (dodge) + 8 crits = 34 (right?). If 600 ms latency does affecy my CD, increasing it to 6.6secs, then I could have done only 36 swings. Sure, I still got room to improve and my guess is that the 2 CS that I didnt get to use were either due to a very small delay in my rotation (ie, awaiting 0.2 secs for GCD from another ability to finish), human reaction timing and once the tank died and a wipe was called I didnt bother with keeping a close eye on my rotation anymore.

Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
Yes, mana is a problem to me on most fights, but I'm sure I can work around it. I've got planty of [Crystal Mana Potion] to use, so I was using them and saving my [Elixir of Major Mageblood], [Fel Mana Potion] and [Dark Rune] to use when we are going to have a serious attempt on him, because so far, it's been about trying to last the enrage timer and keeping the tanks up. Another thing we're planing on doing is having a 4th pally outside the instance to give us another blessing, and in my case, it would be BoW (I only had kings, might and salvation so far). I'm gonna ask our shammy to drop mana spring totem and mana tide totem as well, if possible (as i doubt fire resist totem will help much and i dont see any other use for the water totem).

On a side note, my shammy so far is refusing to totem twist. He says he got the macro, I understand it only has to be used every 8 secs and I dont see whats the big deal. Is it big mana drain for them? Or does it affect their rotation too much (due to GCDs)? I think we got the dps to kill Brutts, once everybody pots and use consumables, specially considering that sub 20% our mages and warriors dps will increase considerably, so it might not be a big requirement just yet.

But yes, thanks for the replies guys. I guess i gotta work on using exorcism a bit more (15 secs Cd, but i used it every 34 secs - mostly due to mana) and on my judgements (every 12.6 secs when the cd is 8 secs). Or am i better off droping 2 points from Imp judgement (coz im clearly not judging every 8 secs and due to rotation priorities, i might not improve on it that much) and investing them in Benediction?

Last edited by Trakor : 05/27/08 at 1:50 PM.
#4320SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
On a side note, my shammy so far is refusing to totem twist. He says he got the macro, I understand it only has to be used every 8 secs and I dont see whats the big deal. Is it big mana drain for them? Or does it affect their rotation too much (due to GCDs)? I think we got the dps to kill Brutts, once everybody pots and use consumables, specially considering that sub 20% our mages and warriors dps will increase considerably.
Twisting is a massive mana drain, but with Judgement of Wisdom he should be more than fine (our enhancement shaman actually only uses Shamanistic Rage to mitigate burn damage even while twisting because its so much mana). As long as you're keeping JoW up he should be fine and there is no reason not to be doing it.

And generally as an Alliance pally you'll want to have Judgement on a higher priority than Exorcism and Consecration. In addition to its damage (small but not inconcequential) it is worth 100 Attack Power with the libram. My priority is usually Crusader Strike > Judgement > Exorcism > Consecration for that fight.
#4321SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
To give you an idea... on RoS phase 1, I take a total of about 2.5-3k knockback damage for the whole phase, thats 250-300 mana healed from SA. Nothing too impressive. I think many alliance paladins make the mistake of grossly over-estimating the benefit of SoB recoil, and SoB in general for that matter. It's certainly better, but looking at Rawr its certainly not earthshattering.
You get healed in Phase 1 of RoS? That's friggin OP ^_^

Another note about the regen capability of SoB vs. SoC is that SoB doesn't proc JoW, SoC does.
#4322SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Trakor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Twisting is a massive mana drain, but with Judgement of Wisdom he should be more than fine (our enhancement shaman actually only uses Shamanistic Rage to mitigate burn damage even while twisting because its so much mana). As long as you're keeping JoW up he should be fine and there is no reason not to be doing it.

And generally as an Alliance pally you'll want to have Judgement on a higher priority than Exorcism and Consecration. In addition to its damage (small but not inconcequential) it is worth 100 Attack Power with the libram. My priority is usually Crusader Strike > Judgement > Exorcism > Consecration for that fight.
Thank you for all the feedback. I'll keep that in mind and change my rotation from now on
#4323SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2darkknightx
Q on 2 piece T4 Ret set

I have a question about the Justicar Battlegear 2-set bonus. It reads as follows:

(2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.


Does this work with the Improved Seal of the Crusader being judged on a boss for the entire raid, or does this work only for the Party or Paladin only?

Thank you.
#4324SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Trakor
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
This table looks like crap but yea, max rank exorcism beats R1 Conc in terms of Damage Per Mana (DPM)
Exorcism can also crit, consecration can't.
#4325SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Trakor
Originally Posted by darkknightx View Post
I have a question about the Justicar Battlegear 2-set bonus. It reads as follows:

(2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.


Does this work with the Improved Seal of the Crusader being judged on a boss for the entire raid, or does this work only for the Party or Paladin only?

Thank you.
The dmg bonus from JotC only affects holy dmg. The 3% crit is a different effect. In other words, it doesnt affect Imp SotC at all.
#4326SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Avitus
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
The nagle algorithm (Nagle's algorithm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was turned off in the client in a patch. Testing proves it's not turned off on the server end . People playing from outside the US on US servers will still get double the latency you would normally expect from a US server due to delayed TCP acknowledgements (600ms instead of 300ms, 500ms instead of 250ms etc).
This is slightly off topic, but I'll add something since it's pretty vital:

Does everyone (especially those with high latency) use the fix which was posted on MMO champion (and other sites) a few months ago?

It is incredibly potent, I tend to steer away from mass brouhaha but it really does work. I recently tried disabling it (about 2 weeks ago) and my ms rose from ~150 to 350. You don't need a tunneling service, half those services do something similar to this hack.

For more info, go here and apply it: New spell ranks on PTR, lag fix, comics


The next quote is a summary of what you need to do which I wrote for my guild broken down into 3 steps:

STEP 1:

If you're using WinXP, ignore this one and go to STEP 2.

If you're using Win Vista, get one of the following patches:

Vista 32: http://www.lostchapter.org/Avi/lagfi...458_v2_x86.msu

Vista 64: http://www.lostchapter.org/Avi/lagfi...458_v2_x64.msu

This patch is required to make the registry edits work since it's currently bugged in Vista, it's a known issue that Microsoft knows about and these are official patches.

RESTART after you apply this


STEP 2:

Download this file (right click -> save as) and then run it: http://www.lostchapter.org/Avi/lagfix/msmq.reg


STEP 3:

Type "regedit" in windows "run.." dialog to bring up registry menu

Then find:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Tcpip\Parameters\Interfaces\

There will be multiple NIC interfaces listed in there, find the one you use to connect to the internet, there will be several interfaces listed (they have long names like {7DBA6DCA-FFE8-4002-A28F-4D2B57AE8383}. Click each one, the right one will have lots of settings in it and you will see your machines local IP address listed there somewhere. Right-click in the right hand pane and add a new DWORD value, name it TcpAckFrequency, then right click the entry and click Modify and assign a value of 1.

RESTART after you apply this

That's it! There's a 2nd edit on MMO-Champion, but that's not needed as it's already in the regedit in my STEP 2.

Originally Posted by Sterlin View Post
I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit
The conclusion I've reached about Consecration vs Exorcism priority is the following:

Exorcism has a 15 sec cooldown. You would have to mess up ~10 times with GCD in order for you to lose 1 exorcism cast in a fight. ~20 times to lose 2 exorcism casts. This long cooldown is actually a benefit.

In contrast, Consecration is always ticking, any second you waste is damage lost. Mostly it's negligible amounts, but it adds up if you mess up a lot with Consecration rotations. You can however make up for it somewhat by using higher ranks when you have too much mana.

Conclusion: Both are really relaxed cooldowns to follow it doesn't matter much which you use first. Try not to lose any exorcism casts (and as explained it's actually hard to lose one given the high tolerance to mess ups) and if you fall behind with Consecration, use higher ranks to make up for it.

Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
I'm gonna ask our shammy to drop mana spring totem and mana tide totem as well, if possible (as i doubt fire resist totem will help much and i dont see any other use for the water totem).

On a side note, my shammy so far is refusing to totem twist. He says he got the macro, I understand it only has to be used every 8 secs and I dont see whats the big deal. Is it big mana drain for them? Or does it affect their rotation too much (due to GCDs)? I think we got the dps to kill Brutts, once everybody pots and use consumables, specially considering that sub 20% our mages and warriors dps will increase considerably, so it might not be a big requirement just yet.
There's direct contradiction in what you're saying. If he's resto, you can expect mana tide, but not totem twisting (not possible while healing). If he's enhance, expect totem twisting but no mana tide (31 point resto talent).

That aside, regardless of spec he should be sticking down Mana Spring, that shouldn't even be something to discuss.

Also if he's enhance, he has to totem twist or get another shaman, it's that simple. An enhance shaman refusing to totem twist is like a ret paladin refusing to use JotC. Twisting GoA in can raise party damage by up to 300 dps (~50 DPS for ret paladins, more for rogues, ferals, hunters, less for warriors).

There is no excuse. Mana issues? JoW more than covers that, an enh can totem twist and use shocks as much as they like and they won't even need to use mana potions (as we and every other class with a mana bar have to). GCD issues? Sorry as much as I dread to use such a cheap expression, this is a "l2p issue" or he's simply being lazy at the expense of the raid.

Originally Posted by darkknightx View Post
I have a question about the Justicar Battlegear 2-set bonus. It reads as follows:

(2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.

Does this work with the Improved Seal of the Crusader being judged on a boss for the entire raid, or does this work only for the Party or Paladin only?
I have no evidence for this, but despite the vague description I'm pretty sure it only affects the holy damage portion, not the crit bonus.

Last edited by Avitus : 05/27/08 at 2:44 PM.
#4327SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
JettJaguar
I use this hack as well. However, the hotfix is rolled into Vista SP1, so you can skip Step 1 if you are running the service pack.

Also, I did not make the change to message queuing in step 2. Do you know what that is supposed to do? (EDIT: This seems to be unnecessary after Patch 2.3.2)

The changes from Step 3 are directly culled out of a KB article, so I have some faith in them.

Last edited by JettJaguar : 05/27/08 at 3:38 PM.
#4328SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by HamSlammer View Post
You get healed in Phase 1 of RoS? That's friggin OP ^_^

Another note about the regen capability of SoB vs. SoC is that SoB doesn't proc JoW, SoC does.
No, which is exactly why I know how much HP I loose on average...
#4329SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Alborak
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Also if he's enhance, he has to totem twist or get another shaman, it's that simple. An enhance shaman refusing to totem twist is like a ret paladin refusing to use JotC. Twisting GoA in can raise party damage by up to 300 dps (~50 DPS for ret paladins, more for rogues, ferals, hunters, less for warriors).
Oh I love that path of reasoning. We too have a shaman who doesn't like to twist, however his reasoning is that Blizz announced they will be "fixing" twisting sometime in the future. Flawed logic to not do it now, but whatever. I'll throw this quote at him next time hes actually enhance and not forced to go restoration.

Speaking of laziness & JoTc, How much do people us it on trash? I often find myself only judging it on the first mob of a multi mob pack (Eg most of the trash on the way to kalecgos) and just keeping with my CS/JoC for the rest of the mobs. I suppose technically it would be best for the raid for me to not toss that last JoC on the current mob and JoTC the next mob, but thats requires slightly more paying attention. Am I too lazy on trash, or is it acceptable for most to not judge it on every mob.
#4330SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Pyralissa
I threw away the numbers a few weeks ago but I did some (limited) testing in the tier4 2piece bonus and it doesn't influence your critical rate in any way, just the bonus damage amount.
#4331SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Sticking JotC on trash is not really a necessity, I tend to forgo it mostly since it's of negligible benefit there, especially with multiple targets.


Alborak, you might want to tell your shaman that "fixing totem twisting" has been on Blizzard's agenda for close to a year now. At least long enough for us to go through all of BT and most of Sunwell and it's still there.

I don't think they'll fix it before Wotlk, or it might even go officially legit by the looks of it.
#4332SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Justicar Battlegear 2-set bonus makes the 219 Holy damage become 252 Holy Damage. While that is nice, that is no reason to keep Tier 4 over better gear (look at Rawr).
#4333SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Sticking JotC on trash is not really a necessity, I tend to forgo it mostly since it's of negligible benefit there, especially with multiple targets.


Alborak, you might want to tell your shaman that "fixing totem twisting" has been on Blizzard's agenda for close to a year now. At least long enough for us to go through all of BT and most of Sunwell and it's still there.

I don't think they'll fix it before Wotlk, or it might even go officially legit by the looks of it.
I'm pretty sure fixing seal twisting is higher on blizzard's priority. The few ret paladins who've mastered it in arena are owning it up with 8k+ swings. I'm fairly certain the PvE viability is low... at least I haven't been able to work out a stable, efficient rotation for it that I am actually good enough to keep up
#4334SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arikah
good paladins actually being feared in pvp?

Unbelievable. Call the nerf squad. This is a travesty ect...
#4335SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
good paladins actually being feared in pvp?

Unbelievable. Call the nerf squad. This is a travesty ect...
Let's not get crazy here.

We don't want paladins becoming the gods of PvP.


Have I ever told you guys how much I love the US CM's? Even after banning me I can't help it, I want to just hug Eyonix.

In all seriousness, I was trying out Seal Twisting in EotS this weekend with SoC/SoJ and it is pretty darn incredible. I could see a hotfix coming soon (if I had to guess they'll just make SoC unable to proc anything).
#4336SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
On a completely off-topic note, the proc off the Shattered Sun exalted neck (Scryer) was 12 dps on its own for Brut this week. Definitely something to think about if you are still wearing [Pendant of the Perilous].
#4337SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Fadaar
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
On a completely off-topic note, the proc off the Shattered Sun exalted neck (Scryer) was 12 dps on its own for Brut this week. Definitely something to think about if you are still wearing [Pendant of the Perilous].
Should I continue to use that neck as Aldor when my only option (at least at this point in time, who knows when Supremus will cough up the neck again) otherwise is honor/badge gear? Like I said, getting Supremus to drop that neck is like pulling teeth and I've pretty much resigned myself to using the SSO neck.
#4338SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2shinato
I was messing around with Rawr retribution model and came to something what i find odd.

here is my build. Shinato

at the shoulders, its listing the T6 with sovereign shadowsong amethyst and inscribed pyrestone higher then 2 times inscribed pyrestone or 2 times bold crimson spinel.
you would say, 10 str + 10 crit beats 10 str + 5 crit + 7 stam...

i know buffs and enchant etc can influence the outcome but 7 stam? what about it is contributing to the DPS?

am i doing or reading something wrong or is there something with the ret model?

something else:
think it was already mentioned before but is the LotP not working or is it always active cause when i select it in the buff list nothing changes.
#4339SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by shinato View Post
I was messing around with Rawr retribution model and came to something what i find odd.

here is my build. Shinato

at the shoulders, its listing the T6 with sovereign shadowsong amethyst and inscribed pyrestone higher then 2 times inscribed pyrestone or 2 times bold crimson spinel.
you would say, 10 str + 10 crit beats 10 str + 5 crit + 7 stam...

i know buffs and enchant etc can influence the outcome but 7 stam? what about it is contributing to the DPS?

am i doing or reading something wrong or is there something with the ret model?

something else:
think it was already mentioned before but is the LotP not working or is it always active cause when i select it in the buff list nothing changes.
Is that amethyst activating your meta? Because it has a sanity check (which you can disable) that ensures your meta is activated. If it is indeed a bug, send me a PM with exactly what you did to generate that issue, and I'll try my best to fix it.

Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
Should I continue to use that neck as Aldor when my only option (at least at this point in time, who knows when Supremus will cough up the neck again) otherwise is honor/badge gear? Like I said, getting Supremus to drop that neck is like pulling teeth and I've pretty much resigned myself to using the SSO neck.
I have no clue what the aldor one does differently... I *believe* its the same thing but holy damage... which would make it even better for a ret pally.
#4340SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2noth
Nope! We aldor folk get an AP proc instead of a direct dmg bolt. I wear it over the pendant of the perilous and am pretty happy with it.
#4341SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by noth View Post
Nope! We aldor folk get an AP proc instead of a direct dmg bolt. I wear it over the pendant of the perilous and am pretty happy with it.
I am Aldor and wore the SSO neck *instead* of the [Choker of Endless Nightmares] because of excessive +hit on my gear rendering that stat useless on the Choker. The AP proc from the Aldor SSO neck makes it one of the best necklaces available.
#4342SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Aramul
The Scryer version is better, however the Aldor version is still one of the top necks depending on your ArP ([Choker of Serrated Blades]) and hit ([Choker of Endless Nightmares]). [Clutch of Demise] and [Hard Khorium Choker] always outdps it however.
#4343SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2shinato
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Is that amethyst activating your meta? Because it has a sanity check (which you can disable) that ensures your meta is activated. If it is indeed a bug, send me a PM with exactly what you did to generate that issue, and I'll try my best to fix it.
ah ofcourse, how stupid of me. totally forgot about the meta and meta gem option.
its a valid reason for it now, thanks
#4344SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Alborak
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
In all seriousness, I was trying out Seal Twisting in EotS this weekend with SoC/SoJ and it is pretty darn incredible. I could see a hotfix coming soon (if I had to guess they'll just make SoC unable to proc anything).
Agreed. I've been using SoJ to attempt to break spells for a few weeks. Swing timers matching up with short spell casts like FoL is infrequent, but it makes shutting down a shaman trying to be efficient with HW a whole lot easier. I would hope that they don't fix it before wrath, although the SoB twist makes me very very jealous.

And I doubt they would disable SoC procing anything as it would mess with JoW & JoL, but hey, its blizzard - you never know. My guess would be they would simply change SoJ, SoB, and any other seals that can be twisted to be calculated at the same time as SoC.
#4345SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2DanoPDX
I have been trying search commands in the forums and on google for things like "How add items" and I can't find anything, so hopefully this question has not been asked before.

How do I add items to the bellator spreadsheet after I open it into Excel?

If I just use the dropdown menu, and select "---User Added----" and then manually edit the cell, later on the spreadsheet quits pre filling in the correct values of the gear, and starts statically using the values I am putting in.
#4346SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2atvrider450r
Rawr

Is there anyway to change the quality of gems?

For example, I was comparing upgrades for my legs, and it showed [tameless breaches] with 10 agility gems in them. Wouldn't 10 strength gems show a higher upgrade? MY stat graph shows strength is still the #1 stat for me, so I just just curious if there is a reason behind this? At first i thought about meta requirement, but they are the same color (red).
#4347SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xiras
I also have a question concerning Rawr:

When I set how many points I have in which talent, and close the window, and then open the talentwindow again, it's totally reset again. Does rawr save those settings until you actually open the window again, or am I missing some sort of 'save-option' in the menu ??
#4348SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Xiras View Post
I also have a question concerning Rawr:

When I set how many points I have in which talent, and close the window, and then open the talentwindow again, it's totally reset again. Does rawr save those settings until you actually open the window again, or am I missing some sort of 'save-option' in the menu ??
It does. The easiest way I've found to find out if you're talented or not is to check your hit. If you're missing 3% hit, your talents aren't working ^_^

---------------

Another question I've had concerning RAWR:

Where's the option for Avenging Wrath? Am I just dumb and not seeing it, or does it model it in automatically... or is it just not there?
#4349SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Astrylian
Not sure about the talents or AW (I think it models AW automatically, not sure).

Regarding gems, you're free to choose whatever gems for an item you want, and make as many different gemmings of it that you want. Right click->Edit, or Tools->Item Editor...
#4350SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Rawr questions should be sent in PMs to me or Astrylian, generally speaking. There is also an entire thread devoted to it.

Ill check on AW and the talents when I get home today.
#4351SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Olympos
Could some of you show me your favorite Retri-PvE Makros? My guild realized that a retri in Sunwell is a nice thing, so i wanna make teh job the best I can...Since our retri has gone without saying anything^^
#4352SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Cathmor
Originally Posted by Olympos View Post
Could some of you show me your favorite Retri-PvE Makros? My guild realized that a retri in Sunwell is a nice thing, so i wanna make teh job the best I can...Since our retri has gone without saying anything^^
I actually just wrote a blog post about ret-related macros: Eye for an Eye: Macro's 'R Us
If you follow the link, you'll see 4 common macros - Judge/Re-seal, Mouseover Cleanse, Multi-rank Consecration, and Start-attack Strike. There are a bunch of others that paladins employ (I'm sure if you searched this thread for "macro" you'll find some others), but those 4 will provide the framework for you to create related macros for other paladin abilities.
#4353SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nisall
I think the Crusader Strike not triggering auto attack is fixed. At least when I start with CS autoattack automatically 'lights up'
#4354SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
There's nothing to be fixed it's not meant to activate auto-attack, it's not a "bug"

/startattack macro just saves you from having to right click mob/press a second button to autoattack/waste a button slot on "attack".
#4355SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nisall
CS does automatically activate autoattack. When I target a mob by using a leftclick (i.e. not starting the autoattack) and I run to the mob I don't attack it. However when I press CS w/o using any macro's it will also start autoattacking automatically.
#4356SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sozar
Yes, but that is assuming CS is off cooldown. If it is on cooldown it will not start autoattack, hence the macro being useful.
#4357SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Originally Posted by Sozar View Post
Yes, but that is assuming CS is off cooldown. If it is on cooldown it will not start autoattack, hence the macro being useful.
This is exactly right. Especially on trash or bosses where you have to move/switch targets a lot, this macro increases your DPS fairly significantly.
#4358SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nisall
Ah right, I thought everyone was talking about CS not starting autoattack when used so I never understood why people used the macro.

However, I still don't quite see the dps gain from macro though. Sure I understand that is starts autoattack when you switch targets and CS is still on CD, but if you have to switch targets why not just right click instead of left click (tab targetting is horrendous :P). In the end that save 1 extra action to be done.
#4359SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Zurm
Because the /startattack command will target the closest mob to your character if you don't have one selected, so its faster than tab targeting or clicking, since you have to move your character to the mob anyway.
#4360SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nisall
Oke didn't know that /startattack targetted the closest mob. I'll give it a try, now I just have to hope the closest target is the one I need to attack next
#4361SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
/startattack is nice and I use it, however if the closest target is CCed, you will break it.
#4362SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nisall
Yeah, that is basically the same problem as tab-targeting, which to my knowledge also targets the closest mob at 1st and the progressively moves farther away from you. I usually hold my mouse over the next target anyway once my current is on low health. By time I've turned/walked to it autoattack has already kicked in.

But I'll give it a try and if it doesn't work for me it is no big deal.
#4363SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Stolidus
Tab targeting sweeps through a cone starting somewhere in your front left quadrant and ending in the front right. I don't think tab targeting has a proximity priority though, just closer things are more likely to be taking up a huge chunk of the angle you're sweeping through, and so you're more likely to hit them.

To add to the discussion: Seal twisting has been deemed largely inviable because it interferes with CS and judgment rotations and is hard to manage with a fastish weapon, or because it's too mana intensive?
#4364SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arikah
Originally Posted by Stolidus View Post
..

To add to the discussion: Seal twisting has been deemed largely inviable because it interferes with CS and judgment rotations and is hard to manage with a fastish weapon, or because it's too mana intensive?
From my own experience with seal twisting after having tried it in a raid setting for 2 weeks now, it is viable in pve, it just isn't efficient because of the way i am geared. It isn't so much the amount of static sunwell haste i have (though it does make it quite a bit more difficult than doing it with bt gear), it was the random mongoose and dst procs that completely threw me off - then throw in bloodlusts, haste potions, trying to keep consecration down, and GCD issues... often times i would end up judging command instead of blood because the gcd's just wouldnt click. Mana wasn't really an issue from what i found, partly because soc procs jow, but also partly because i was too focused on twisting and missing consecrations/exorcisms.

I'm just going to stick to my normal rotations in sunwell... seal twisting can also become hazardous if you are staring at your swing timer instead of the fire you are dying in. Def. fun in pvp though, i love our little 'mace stun' with a sword trick :p
#4365SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arthaal
This question is more to satisfy personal curiosity rather than address so key theorycrafting point, but here goes:

I recently acquired some upgrades that allowed me to shift some stats around. Short version, I now have more armor pen then before, though I have replaced the S3 vengeful gloves with Grips of Silent Justice for the extra hit. The new build is more armor pen, more haste, less crit, slightly more AP. Odd thing though, Rawr suddenly decided Mongoose was now a better enchant over executioner (by quite a margin too, some 11DPS) I was wondering what could have brought this on? Is it the extra haste? I thought mongoose was a PPM mechanic, much like SoC. If anything you'd think the extra armor pen would make executioner procs even more advantageous no?
#4366SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
From my own experience with seal twisting after having tried it in a raid setting for 2 weeks now, it is viable in pve, it just isn't efficient because of the way i am geared. It isn't so much the amount of static sunwell haste i have (though it does make it quite a bit more difficult than doing it with bt gear), it was the random mongoose and dst procs that completely threw me off - then throw in bloodlusts, haste potions, trying to keep consecration down, and GCD issues... often times i would end up judging command instead of blood because the gcd's just wouldnt click. Mana wasn't really an issue from what i found, partly because soc procs jow, but also partly because i was too focused on twisting and missing consecrations/exorcisms.

I'm just going to stick to my normal rotations in sunwell... seal twisting can also become hazardous if you are staring at your swing timer instead of the fire you are dying in. Def. fun in pvp though, i love our little 'mace stun' with a sword trick :p
The bolded part was my biggest problem. I'm, as you are, going to leave twisting out of my PvE realm for now, and just utilize it in PvP and some lower end content (heroics and 10mans where things like haste potions and bloodlusts don't really matter).
#4367SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
If you guys haven't been following the Wrath of the Lich King thread a huge list of the MPQ data for all old spells was released. One thing that I saw as I was skimming was:

6/1 13:44:56.616 24239: Hammer of Wrath (Rank 3)
6/1 13:44:56.666 340 Mana
6/1 13:44:56.666 30 yd range
6/1 13:44:56.666 Instant cast
6/1 13:44:56.672 6 sec cooldown
6/1 13:44:56.672 Hurls a hammer that strikes an enemy for 504 to 556 Holy damage. Only usable on enemies that have 20% or less health.
That's right folks, our 4-piece Tier 6 bonus will be usable next expansion!

Don't you just love the devs?
#4368SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Handled
Originally Posted by HamSlammer View Post
The bolded part was my biggest problem. I'm, as you are, going to leave twisting out of my PvE realm for now, and just utilize it in PvP and some lower end content (heroics and 10mans where things like haste potions and bloodlusts don't really matter).
I've found the biggest part is the inaccuracies of the swing timer and it's reset between .4 and .1 so sometimes timing the twist fouls up an entire dps cycle. Twisting seems to be more of a filler and carefully utilized DPS buff more then regular use. At least until I get myself a timer that doesn't have some odd reset to it.
#4369SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Arikah
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
If you guys haven't been following the Wrath of the Lich King thread a huge list of the MPQ data for all old spells was released. One thing that I saw as I was skimming was:



That's right folks, our 4-piece Tier 6 bonus will be usable next expansion!

Don't you just love the devs?
AND they lowered the mana cost by a whole 100! We're on the path to becoming pvp gods, as it were....

Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky, we can see this in action in 2.5 and have about a month of feeling like a warrior.
#4370SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Bart00
5/31 16:00:11.880 50907: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:11.930 Instant
5/31 16:00:11.933 The Seal of Onslaught inflicts an attack that ignores enemies armor.
5/31 16:00:11.980 50908: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:12.030 300 Mana
5/31 16:00:12.030 Instant cast
5/31 16:00:12.030 Grants the casters attacks the chance on melee swing to ignore enemy armor.
not bad for a dps seal =p

Last edited by Bart00 : Yesterday at 4:14 PM.
#4371SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sterlin
That's right folks, our 4-piece Tier 6 bonus will be usable next expansion!

Don't you just love the devs?
Why wait for expansion - should change it NOW ! !!

Why not put it in with Season 4 patch?

Last edited by Sterlin : Yesterday at 4:49 PM.
#4372SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Bart00 View Post
not bad for a dps seal =p
Just looks like Executioner that eats the seal slot. Quite terrible really.
#4373SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Bart00
Well I was thinking about it as a hit ignoring all armor. It's probably not like that I guess.
#4374SourcePosted on <=2.0.0osmigos
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just looks like Executioner that eats the seal slot. Quite terrible really.
I'm not so sure that it would be a waste. When I plugged it into my spreadsheet I was showing a slight DPS increase if the target had no armor as opposed to if I was using SoB. I can't really say for sure yet though, as I'm not sure what the judgement on SoO is (so for the sake of comparison I just kept JoB in the calculations).
It's probably much too early to get heavily into math since we don't know evreything about the seal and about itemization (if there's lots of easily obtained armor pen anyways, SoO loses usefulness), but it certainly should not be dismissed outright.
#4375SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rasputin
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Just looks like Executioner that eats the seal slot. Quite terrible really.
Depends how you interpret it based on those two lines. It's either a 100% executioner effect, which is quite underwhelming, or a SoC proc which does physical damage at 100% of weapon damage, essentially a Seal of Windfury that ignores armor.

Seal of Armorless Windfury:
The Seal of Onslaught inflicts an attack that ignores enemies armor.
Seal of Slightly Stronger Executioner Enchant:
Grants the casters attacks the chance on melee swing to ignore enemy armor.
Of course it could just be a mob ability like Seal of Wrath as well. If not, I lean towards to Windfury/SoC interprestion, as that is the spell effect text, while the more ambiguous Executioner-style wording seems to be the seal tooltip.
#4376SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
I would assume from the wording that it would be a PPM that gives you an extra attack that pierces armor. In other words its just the old version of Seal of Command (extra attack that isn't affected by armor) and would suffer from the same problems (PPM scaling with haste specifically).

I'm still not very impressed.
#4377SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rasputin
While that's true, this new seal would still be about a 43% increase in Seal DPS for Alliance Ret Paladins. While it's not perfect, it's not an insignificant amount by any means, and it would certainly help in closing the gap between SoB and SoC(SoO?) DPS. In a perfect world it would simply replace SoC and be scaled such that it outperforms SoB, leaving all Ret Paladins in the same DPS situation with a talented main seal.
#4378SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Would it though? Since its an extra melee attack and not holy damage like SoC you're losing JotC damage as well as the Sanctity Aura modifier which is a very large amount of damage. I don't have time to run numbers right now since I'm raiding but I'll look into it.
#4379SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Yenadar
Seal of Command - PPM Test

So I have been Prot since early 40s, and have been tanking Hyjal/BT/Sunwell progressively over the past several months.
Over this time, I have been gathering just about every piece of haste gear I could get my hands on, for swinging [Nightfall].

Well, now that has been nerfed, and I have a ton of DPS plate on my hands, loaded with haste (+16.11% haste). So I decide what I DPS I could get with it as Ret specced, and yesterday, took that step to Ret for the first time since early 40s. My guild-mates and I were talking, and we got to the topic of Haste, and how it does, or does not affect Ret Pallys, more specifically they were telling me that it affected only white damage, and everything else was unaffected. I decided to do a test in the Blasted Lands with my haste gear, and see if it changed the proc rate at all. I wrote a quick mod that tracked:

- Start time
- Duration
- Number of Swings
- Number of Procs
- Calculated Procs Per Minute
- Calculated Proc Rate (%)

Unfortunately, I forgot to start logging a combat log until well into it, and since time was limited prior to raid, I decided to finish it out rather than clearing the information and re-starting. Due to the odd results I got, I will be doing this again this week, and I will make sure to get a log to post to you all for examination.

Relavant stats:
[Soul Cleaver]
- 254 haste rating (16.11%)
- Resulting swing speed of 3.19

Buffs:
- Seal of command (Refreshed only between swings so as to not interfere with the proc rate)
- Judgement of Light (applied before information capture was started)
- Greater Blessing of Wisdom (re-applied once)
- Devotion Aura

Data:
- 2,726.260 seconds duration (45.437 minutes)
- 887 swings
- 887 hits
- 350 procs

Calculations:
- 7.70 procs per minute
- 39.45% proc rate
- 10.04% ppm increase over reported 7ppm of SoC

Now we get to the real reason for the post. And it was damn odd. (decimal precision is lacking, since i wasn't expecting this, and this is just from memory noted)

The first 10 minutes recorded a ppm of 9.6, at 48% proc rate
The first 20 minutes recorded a ppm of 8.9, at 44% proc rate
The first 30 minutes recorded a ppm of 8.0, at 40% proc rate
The first 45 minutes recorded a ppm of 7.7, at 39.45% proc rate

I understand the return to average, balancing of a good string of procs with a bad string of no-procs. However, over time, the average should have stabilized FAR better than what I observed, and certainly should not have been a slow drop in the PPM and proc rate, to the tune of a 8.5% proc rate decline and a 35% drop in procs per minute.

Has anyone else seen this kind of behavior? Almost as if there was diminishing returns, but that is absurd.

When I re-do this test, I plan on going for 2 hours, with a combat log captured to post along with it, but thought I would post it to see what you all make of it.
#4380SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Yenadar View Post
When I re-do this test, I plan on going for 2 hours, with a combat log captured to post along with it, but thought I would post it to see what you all make of it.
Bear in mind you are attacking a much lower level mob and you're attacking it head on meaning every time you parry the npc's attack you get an instant melee attack.
#4381SourcePosted on <=2.0.0TinReaper
5/31 16:00:11.880 50907: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:11.930 Instant
5/31 16:00:11.933 The Seal of Onslaught inflicts an attack that ignores enemies armor.
5/31 16:00:11.980 50908: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:12.030 300 Mana
5/31 16:00:12.030 Instant cast
5/31 16:00:12.030 Grants the casters attacks the chance on melee swing to ignore enemy armor.

Edit: after reading it again i will need to ponder it. but like someone else said. not affected byt the holy part of sanc aura

Last edited by TinReaper : Yesterday at 7:30 PM.
#4382SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 frmorrison
SoO from that IRC log means it is similar to SoC (sometimes giving an extra attack), however the proc rate is of course unknown.

Paladins didn't get talents yet, so the Seal sounds like something someone made up.


Remember this is Alpha stuff, so talents and abilities will be changed frequently.
#4383SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Chupin
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
Agreed. I've been using SoJ to attempt to break spells for a few weeks. Swing timers matching up with short spell casts like FoL is infrequent, but it makes shutting down a shaman trying to be efficient with HW a whole lot easier. I would hope that they don't fix it before wrath, although the SoB twist makes me very very jealous.

And I doubt they would disable SoC procing anything as it would mess with JoW & JoL, but hey, its blizzard - you never know. My guess would be they would simply change SoJ, SoB, and any other seals that can be twisted to be calculated at the same time as SoC.
Can anyone point me to where seal twisting is discussed more in depth for those that have no clue what's being discussed?

Thx in advance.
#4384SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Yenadar
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Bear in mind you are attacking a much lower level mob and you're attacking it head on meaning every time you parry the npc's attack you get an instant melee attack.
Agreed and understood. I don't see how this would cause a continually decreasing proc rate over 45 minutes. It shouldn't affect the proc rate at all, since parry-haste it isn't pre-calculated in any method, though even if it does affect the proc rate, it should still even out over the 45 minutes, not cause a steady decline.
#4385SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Chupin View Post
Can anyone point me to where seal twisting is discussed more in depth for those that have no clue what's being discussed?

Thx in advance.
Seal twisting for damage:
1. Cast Seal of Command
2. When your swing timer is up, cast Seal of Blood

At the very least, you will get a white hit and one SOB hit that was procced from the white

At the most, you will get a white hit, a SOC hit that was procced from the white, a SOB hit that was procced from the white, and a SOB hit that was procced from the SOC hit.

Seal twisting for stuns (primarily for PvP):
1. Cast Seal of Command
2. When your swing timer is up, cast Seal of Justice

At the very least, you will get a white hit

At the most, you will get a white hit, a SOC hit that was procced from the white, and a SOJ stun that was procced from either the white or the SOC hit.

It's also possible to get a white hit and a SOJ stun that was procced from the white hit (but no SOC).
#4386SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sapp
"Seal of Onslaught" has no judgement component in its tooltip, which most seals do.

An interesting idea, but i expect it'll turn out to be a mob ability.
#4387SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tyrannix
5/31 16:00:11.880 50907: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:11.930 Instant
5/31 16:00:11.933 The Seal of Onslaught inflicts an attack that ignores enemies armor.
5/31 16:00:11.980 50908: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:12.030 300 Mana
5/31 16:00:12.030 Instant cast
5/31 16:00:12.030 Grants the casters attacks the chance on melee swing to ignore enemy armor.


First off, I'm an avid reader of these forums, most specifically this thread. I'm currently Prot in my beginning Sunwell guild. I'm desperately seeking to go Ret, and the work you guys do here is spectacular.

Also, I couldn't figure out how to quote a quote, nor could i find the OP where this seal was mentioned. Apologies in advance.

On a more relevant topic, could the first portion of the seal that inflicts an attack be the judgement effect to this? It has no mana cost and is a good idea for a judgement in my book. It could even be a holy attack it inflicts.

The second portion does indeed sound like SoC. Would be sad to see every Ret Paladin have to use PPM.
#4388SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Fadaar
Finally got Brutallus tonight after well over a month of suffering on him.

Anyway, the gear I ran with: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a

WWS report: Wow Web Stats

To be perfectly honest I didn't expect to run anywhere near that DPS. I was pleasently surprised to be that high when I figured I'd top out at around 1650. One thing I did notice was that 5% of my SoC's were dodged. Is that particularly normal or is it just because I have such a small sample size (only 34 total SoC procs I think)? I'm running I think 4% dodge reduction from expertise, or whatever it is for human racial + Shard of Contempt (I *believe* 16 Expertise between the two).

Also yes I know my dps gear is pretty subpar. Armory will show my normal healing gear. Been on a bit of a recruitment spree so me getting any offspec T6 has taken a back seat.

Last edited by Fadaar : Today at 2:46 PM.
#4389SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Alborak
Originally Posted by Fadaar View Post
One thing I did notice was that 5% of my SoC's were dodged. Is that particularly normal or is it just because I have such a small sample size (only 34 total SoC procs I think)? I'm running I think 4% dodge reduction from expertise, or whatever it is for human racial + Shard of Contempt (I *believe* 16 Expertise between the two).
Yes, that would be due to small sample size. One thing that ret dps is particularly vulnerable to is life & death by the RNG. Our sample size for most fights (5-8 mins) is going to be small enough that there will be anomalies here and there. Like you said your armory is showing holy at the moment so I can't see what your gear looks like, but your 47% crit does seem somewhat high, even factoring in LoTp & JoTc (Was your shaman twisting?) If it isn't near what your actual crit percentage should be, then this would be another variation based on small data pool, except this time in your favor.
#4390SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
RangerSix
5/31 16:00:11.880 50907: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:11.930 Instant
5/31 16:00:11.933 The Seal of Onslaught inflicts an attack that ignores enemies armor.
5/31 16:00:11.980 50908: Seal of Onslaught ()
5/31 16:00:12.030 300 Mana
5/31 16:00:12.030 Instant cast
5/31 16:00:12.030 Grants the casters attacks the chance on melee swing to ignore enemy armor.
I really hope that this is not a new player ability, I'd hate to get another seal like that myself.

Rather that they review and upgrade all of our current ones then adding another seal that's demanding us to completely abandon Seal of Command, making it join the ranks of seal of light, wisdom, crusader and justice (Seals, not judgements).

Or worse, a new seal that's completely useless itself while still eating one of our "new spellslots" (Alliance Paladins should know what I'm talking about for 98% of the time).

Oh and if it's an NPC ability -> See Scarlet Onslaught

Last edited by RangerSix : Today at 10:50 AM.
#4391SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Talven
The spells gathered from the recent alpha build show the following for the current maximum rank of Seal of Command (Rank 6):

Spell 27170
Name: Seal of Command
Description: Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to $20424s1% of normal weapon damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts $d. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing $/2;271
Description2: Melee attacks have a chance to deal additional Holy damage.

It's worth noting, that the increased damage against stunned or incapacitated targets is no longer mentioned. That's the same for all other ranks. Though I cannot really make any use of the placeholder given in the damage of the judgement.
#4392SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fadaar
Originally Posted by Alborak View Post
Yes, that would be due to small sample size. One thing that ret dps is particularly vulnerable to is life & death by the RNG. Our sample size for most fights (5-8 mins) is going to be small enough that there will be anomalies here and there. Like you said your armory is showing holy at the moment so I can't see what your gear looks like, but your 47% crit does seem somewhat high, even factoring in LoTp & JoTc (Was your shaman twisting?) If it isn't near what your actual crit percentage should be, then this would be another variation based on small data pool, except this time in your favor.
I only had LOTP for about 3 seconds while I was swapped with another shaman so my group could get a 2nd hero, and yes the shaman was totem twisting. I actually did leave a link to my gear, it's the chardev.org thing. I do run about 35% crit raid buffed and with Mongoose/Agility totem getting into the mid 40's is entirely possible.
#4393SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Seal twisting for damage:
1. Cast Seal of Command
2. When your swing timer is up, cast Seal of Blood

At the very least, you will get a white hit and one SOB hit that was procced from the white

At the most, you will get a white hit, a SOC hit that was procced from the white, a SOB hit that was procced from the white, and a SOB hit that was procced from the SOC hit.

Seal twisting for stuns (primarily for PvP):
1. Cast Seal of Command
2. When your swing timer is up, cast Seal of Justice

At the very least, you will get a white hit

At the most, you will get a white hit, a SOC hit that was procced from the white, and a SOJ stun that was procced from either the white or the SOC hit.

It's also possible to get a white hit and a SOJ stun that was procced from the white hit (but no SOC).
If I get you right, you'd be casting two seals every swing, which with a 3.4 speed weapon leave .4 of a second for slowness/lag. Thanks to the gcd you would not be able to judge, consecrate, or exorcism. Am I missing something? Sounds like missing out on a lot?

One thought would be to have your judge/reseal macro have SoC as the seal it does. Have SoB as a separate button and then try going for double procs after each judgment, once every 8-12 sec. It's less damage but certainly easier to fit in with haste gear and other spells. What do you think?
#4394SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kadrok
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post

One thought would be to have your judge/reseal macro have SoC as the seal it does. Have SoB as a separate button and then try going for double procs after each judgment, once every 8-12 sec. It's less damage but certainly easier to fit in with haste gear and other spells. What do you think?
That's the idea. It's very doable, although there are some times where cooldowns just don't match up, so you lose some time with your Judgement cooldown up or you just judge SoB and wait for the next round. It becomes more challenging with things like the DST proc, but you just have to keep track of the cooldown.
#4395SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mlkmn
I think that seal twisting SoB is a good dps increase in PvE, especially if you decked out in haste gear.

I think you have to be smart about it though. If I try to do it every time I will miss CS cooldowns and have to wait because of the Global Cooldown. It is best to use it when you can fit it in. With practice you can get a feel for it.

I have found that it works best if you don't use a judgement macro that auto refreshes your seal. You need to be able to recast either seal, incase you judge early on you swing timer so you can do command, or if it late you can do blood. Plus, you technically don't need any seal on your weapon until you actually start to swing. You can always judge + Consecrate and then Seal after your GCD is up. I never did get into the Judge+Seal macro. You don't gain any DPS from it and you lose control.

Also, with the delay that SoB has you can usually fit it in when you wouldn't think you could. You just have to play around with it and practice.
#4396SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Buliwyf
Forgive me being noobish. How does this work then? Surely casting SoB cancels SoC?
#4397SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ysabelle
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
Forgive me being noobish. How does this work then? Surely casting SoB cancels SoC?
Here you go, I uploaded this video I made months ago to show how it works. It makes for some nasty burst in pvp if you get it work off a wf+Soc proc.

YouTube - Soc and Sob Seal Twisting
#4398SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Inu
I can confirm seal twising works but will have to do further testing to see if its dps / mana efficiency is worth it.

7:54 PM> ***** gains Seal of Command.
7:54 PM> *****'s melee swing hits Timber Worg for 700 Physical.
7:54 PM> ***** gains Vengeance (2).
7:54 PM> *****'s Seal of Command hits Timber Worg for 1491 Holy. (Critical)
7:54 PM> Timber Worg's melee swing hits ***** for 103 Physical.
7:54 PM> Seal of Command fades from *****.
7:54 PM> ***** gains Seal of Blood.
7:54 PM> *****'s Seal of Blood hits Timber Worg for 377 Holy.
7:54 PM> *****'s Seal of Blood hits Timber Worg for 395 Holy.
7:54 PM> *****'s Seal of Blood hits ***** for 38 Holy.
7:54 PM> *****'s Seal of Blood hits ***** for 40 Holy.

EDIT: Ya i dont see this being efficient at all. Maybe its just my ping but it doesnt feel like it could be at all.

Last edited by Inu : Today at 9:10 PM.
#4401SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dragonwing
My apologies for the double post, but on another note, if it's due to server latency, What is keeping anybody from just twisting SoB with SoB?
#4402SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Agusta
I bet it's because SoC can proc a SoB but SoB can't proc himself.
#4403SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dragonwing
Well, that still brings me to the SoV/SoR deal tho- if twisting either of those with SoC is doable, i'd like to hear about it, so if anybody has any input feel free to chime in.
#4404SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Prinsesa
Dragonwing, I think you already asked this before.

Anyway, while no one has reported actually trying to twist SOC and SOV together, it should theoretically work, but it should also theoretically suck.

With 0 spell damage on Ret gear, SOV will only be hitting for base values.
With 0 spell hit on Ret gear, SOV will be looking at 10%+ resist rates.
Both SOC and SOV are PPM-based procs, so your worst-case scenario is a plain white hit with nothing on it.

Between having no spell damage and high resist rates, I can't imagine SOC/SOV twisting to be worth the mana and the GCD juggling. You'd probably get better results trying to twist SOC and SOR, since SOR can't be fully resisted and procs on every hit, but again with SOR you wouldn't have any spell damage.
#4405SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Ragnor
In my brief testing a few months ago I concluded none of the spell hit based seals are twist-able (SoR, SoV, SoW, SoL). As alliance you can only twist from SoC to SoJ so it's only useful for pvp.

Regarding the ideal twist rotation for a belf, you need a swing speed slower than 3.0 minimum 3.2 really..

From Nex's guide on cromfel's forums:



You can also read his guide here:
Cromfel.Battlefield.fi Forums-viewtopic-Seal Juggling, a how-to guide for horde paladins

Last edited by Ragnor : Today at 8:50 AM.
#4406SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Very nice work Ragnor... having a 3.08 swing timer I found it too difficult to do a twist cycle in PvE... but maybe thats a reason to drop haste gear?

Also, I figure I should let the users of this thread know... due to personal time conflicts I am no longer able to raid with my guild... so I will most likely stop playing. That being said, I'm willing to maintain Rawr.Ret indefinitely as long as I recieve input via PMs. If someone else would like to take the reins and knows C#/.NET fairly well, let me or Astrylian know.
#4407SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ragnor
FYI: It's not my diagram it's just a repost from Nex's guide on cromfel's forums. I'm Alliance/Human I can only QQ about twisting in pve
#4408SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
So I was tinkering around with RAWR the other day, trying to figure out my optimal DPS set, and it kept telling me [Stormherald] was about 10 DPS better than [Lionheart Executioner]. I understand slower is better if items have the same DPS, but I figured surely the Strength Proc on the Executioner would push it well over the Stormherald. Does RAWR just not account for the proc?
#4409SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mlkmn
You can seal twist seal of rightousness and seal of blood too. Incase you are prot and feel like putting on ret gear to dps when you aren't tanking in a raid. Blood won't proc off rightousness though. It works quite well with windfury.

You could also just have a spell dmg suit and swing your 1hander with over 1000 spell dmg.
#4410SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurm
Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
So I was tinkering around with RAWR the other day, trying to figure out my optimal DPS set, and it kept telling me [Stormherald] was about 10 DPS better than [Lionheart Executioner]. I understand slower is better if items have the same DPS, but I figured surely the Strength Proc on the Executioner would push it well over the Stormherald. Does RAWR just not account for the proc?
Slower weapon means more damage on crusader strike AND Seal of Command. I know for a fact rawr does take the proc into account, and that sounds about right.
#4411SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Slower weapon means more damage on crusader strike AND Seal of Command. I know for a fact rawr does take the proc into account, and that sounds about right.

Wow. I never would have guessed .2 seconds would outweigh the proc, 2 agility and 10 strength advantage. That's quite impressive. Time to switch Smything specializations again, I suppose. Thank you for the clarification!
#4412SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
Yes, but then that's why you cast the SOB just as your swing timer hits 0, such that the server processes the white swing as still having a chance to proc SOC, and if the SOC does go off, then the server also processes that the SOC will proc a 2nd SOB.

It's basically utilizing server lag and SOC's ability to proc other effects.
I have to move faster than the machine? Fun. How much range do I have? .1 sec? .3 sec?
#4413SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
Wow. I never would have guessed .2 seconds would outweigh the proc, 2 agility and 10 strength advantage. That's quite impressive. Time to switch Smything specializations again, I suppose. Thank you for the clarification!
Just a clarification:
It is *not* because of the speed alone that the Stormherald outperforms Lionheart Executioner with Seal of Command. Every weapon has 3 parts to its statistical output: Weapon DPS, Attack Speed, and Damage Range. If you know two of these statistics, the third is forced into a value, as they are functions of one another. The mean of the damage range divided by the weapon speed gives you a weapon's DPS value. Seal of Command procs for 70% of your weapon's damage range. This is why Stormherald is better - its damage range of 386-579 clearly outpaces Lionheart's 365-549, which makes your SoComm procs hit harder. The statement "slower weapons are better for SoComm" is only true because slower weapons will typically have higher damage ranges.

So, to answer the original question - Stormherald has higher damage range, therefore it edges out Lionheart Executioner with Seal of Command, despite the base statistics and the proc going in Lionheart's favor. In any situation, when presented with seemingly equal weapons in terms of DPS, you want to go with the one with the higher damage range, which will have the slower attack speed. You're not choosing based on attack speed alone. This is something that we tend to gloss over because it's just easier to say "go with the slower weapon."
#4426SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
DMC: Crusade and Fel Mana Potions

Drudging up a post from a few pages ago:
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
[Fel Mana Potion] and [Assassin's Alchemist Stone] if you have it. You'll want to use a DST/Zerker's Call in place of DC:C because of the debuff, but it is well worth the cost. Without the alchemist stone I am able to keep down Rank IV Consecration and rank VII Exorcism almost the entire fight, with it I would assume you could max rank both.

To clarify, your trinkets should look like this:

Fel Mana Potion
Slot 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Slot 2: [Assassin's Alchemist Stone]
-or-

Fel Mana Potion
Slot 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Slot 2: [Dragonspine Trophy] or [Berserker's Call]
-or-

Super Mana Potion
Slot 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Slot 2: [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
SoC should always be equipped, your second trinket depends on what type of pot you're using.
I'm calling into question why we would recommend dumping DMC: Crusade when chugging Fel Mana Potions. Negative spell damage will reduce the effectiveness of all your abilities with coefficients - flyingtoastr had another paladin test this yesterday (source):

A comrade from the Draka boards was kind enough to test this for me on some random boar. He has no spell damage on his gear. He judged Crusader on the boar and cast a Consecration, ticing for 90. He then took a fel mana pot and with the debuff it began to tic for 87. So yes, it does appear that going negative does reduce outgoing damage.

So what does this mean? For Rank IV-VI Consecration you'll lose about 24 total damage, or 3 DPS. For a max rank Exorcism you'll lose 11 damage, or .73 DPS. Seal of Command loses 5 damage and Judgement of Command is reduced by 11 ( .583 DPS and 1.2 DPS respectively). So each Fel Mana Pot reduces your outgoing DPS by roughly 5.5.

The difference is that upranking Consecration from rank II to IV (the maximum I can sustain with Super and Fel chugging respectively) is an increase of 28 DPS. So yes, Fel Mana pots will still be worth more DPS than supers still unless you somehow stack yourself to extreme levels (the debuff is capped at 10 anyway).
Based upon this test, you do not lose any benefit from the DMC: Crusade when using Fel Mana Potions. Your abilities are affected by the debuff, albeit very slightly. The trinket debate can now be focused solely on trinket merits as stand-alones. I'd posit that if DMC: Crusade is considered "best in slot" when using Super Mana Potions, it should remain that way when using Fel Mana Potions. If, however, Berserker's Call or Dragonspine Trophy are considered better than DMC: Crusade at specific gear levels, DMC: Crusade should be dropped down the list. With this information on the loss of damage from the Fel Mana Potion debuff, the value of DMC: Crusade has become absolute instead of relative.

As such, the question becomes whether DST or Zerker's Call are better than DMC: Crusade for non-alchemists. Alchemists can simply equip their stone and Shard of Contempt and be done with the decision-making. Potions can be dropped from the discussion.
#4427SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Dragonwing View Post
By the way, maxdps.com shows the ashtounge trinket as 30dps even, which isn't bad if your rocking like a bloodlust brooch or something. if your on a long boss fight I could see it having some value (not over crusade/shard/alch stone/DST/etc) but figure you may wanna throw it in rawr for those that might find it an upgrade.
Ashtongue is around 30 dps, however you have to be judging on cooldown and using a debuff slot to get this number, which can be an issue at times, and will always be 30ish dps no matter what buffs or gear you have on.

Zurm, I also think it is worth adding to Rawr.
#4428SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hazmat
Rotation

Hi there. This is my first post but I have learned everything I know about ret from these forums.

My question today is if i can better my overall dps by changing my rotation in anyway. I currently use a cast sequence macro to do all of my dps while manually pressing concecrates and the first initial SoC so my rotation looks like this.

Seal of Crusader, then this macro which I spam /castsequence reset=10 judgement, Seal of blood, crusader strike, crusader strike, judgement, seal of blood, crusader strike, then inbetween the 2 crusader strikes i work in a rank of concecration and i manually pop AW and trinkets to time with BL.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
#4429SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cayse
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Ashtongue is around 30 dps, however you have to be judging on cooldown and using a debuff slot to get this number, which can be an issue at times, and will always be 30ish dps no matter what buffs or gear you have on.

Zurm, I also think it is worth adding to Rawr.
Wouldn't it be 30 dps if you're for some unusual reason prioritizing judging every eight seconds, and don't have vengeance, sanctity, crusade, or misery? Maxdps has problems. From my numbers on Belator's sheet it's in the top ten, Rawr not having it modeled bugs me sometimes even though I know it's quite rare for me to be judging exactly on 8 seconds which devalues it quite a bit, along with eating a debuff slot.
#4430SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Cathmor, I did the exact same test about 50 pages ago, negative spelldamage did not seem to affect anything.

Please test it yourself and let us know (instead of just quoting some other guy).

1. Go naked against a mob
2. Consecrate, note down the damage with and without JotC
3. Use Fel Mana Potion (you should be at -25 spelldamage)
4. Consecrate, note down the damage with and without JotC
5. Use another Fel Mana Potion (you should be at -50 spelldamage)
6. Consecrate, note down the damage with and without JotC

My results was exact same Consecration damage with 0 and -50 spelldamage regardless of JotC, maybe your friend had 5-10 spelldamage he didn't know about (socket bonus, imp DS).
#4431SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
Cathmor, I did the exact same test about 50 pages ago, negative spelldamage did not seem to affect anything.

Please test it yourself and let us know (instead of just quoting some other guy).

1. Go naked against a mob
2. Consecrate, note down the damage with and without JotC
3. Use Fel Mana Potion (you should be at -25 spelldamage)
4. Consecrate, note down the damage with and without JotC
5. Use another Fel Mana Potion (you should be at -50 spelldamage)
6. Consecrate, note down the damage with and without JotC

My results was exact same Consecration damage with 0 and -50 spelldamage regardless of JotC, maybe your friend had 5-10 spelldamage he didn't know about (socket bonus, imp DS).
I generally trust what a few posters in this thread say, you and flyingtoastr amongst them. However, the next chance I get I'll grab a Fel Mana Potion and try this myself. It won't be until mid-week next week at the earliest, though.
#4432SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Trakor
Yeah, Avitus, Fel mana is reducing dmg from consecration ticks.

Look at this WWS report:
Wow Web Stats

It shows exactly when I got the Fel Ache debuff

Now if you go at that very same report, at those times, you can see the effect:

For the 1st debuff, the tick went from 148 to 143
Wow Web Stats

On the 2nd debuff, from 38 to 36:
Wow Web Stats

And on the 3rd, it went from 112 to 108:
Wow Web Stats

Since fel ache debuff seems to be affecting consecration, then wouldnt it affect SoC, exorcism and JoC as well? This is harder to check from combat log, since these abilities have a dmg range.


On that note why is my dps on Bruts varying so much? As you can see, on our 1st wipe, i menaged to do around 1920dps, but during the kill, ive only done around 1600. Last week when we got our 1st kill, I've seen similar results, when the lowest dps was 1450 (6min) and the best was 1850 (5min). I do realise the lenght of the fight varies, but if mana wasnt really an issue and if im treating it as a 6 min fight with the same rotation, I dont get why my dps is varying so much. Sure, RNG, soc procs and resists/misses play a part, but this much?

1920 dps:
Trakor - WWS

1580 dps:
Trakor - WWS

I messed up on the pull between these two, so i know why I did low dps there, but with the last one (1580dps), as far as I can remember, it was pretty similar to the 1st one (1920 dps).

And if it is RNG, would it be a good idea to replace the hunter/shammy gear that has more crit and less ap for plate gear with more ap and less crit, even if RAWR tells me plate gear generally results in less dps (for these pieces I have on, at least)?

Last edited by Trakor : Today at 9:33 AM.
#4433SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
I went out and did it again complete with pretty pictures (combat log is in the bottom left). I am not wearing any spell damage.

Baseline: 71-72
Baseline with JotC: 97-98

With Fel Ache: 68-69
With Fel Ache and JotC: 94-95

So yes, pushing negative on the paper doll is affecting us, but it really isn't much DPS loss.
#4434SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
I went out and did it again complete with pretty pictures (combat log is in the bottom left). I am not wearing any spell damage.

Baseline: 71-72
Baseline with JotC: 97-98

With Fel Ache: 68-69
With Fel Ache and JotC: 94-95

So yes, pushing negative on the paper doll is affecting us, but it really isn't much DPS loss.
Thanks for the pictures, Dazanna.

So, as I was saying - since going into the negative for spell damage does reduce your damage on all abilities with coefficients, the drawback of using DMC: Crusade with Fel Mana Potions is nil. Going from 80 to 55 or 0 to -25 will not have any different effect on your damage. DMC: Crusade can be considered independent of mana potion choice.
#4435SourcePosted on <=2.0.0rldolph79
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
On that note why is my dps on Bruts varying so much? As you can see, on our 1st wipe, i menaged to do around 1920dps, but during the kill, ive only done around 1600. Last week when we got our 1st kill, I've seen similar results, when the lowest dps was 1450 (6min) and the best was 1850 (5min). I do realise the lenght of the fight varies, but if mana wasnt really an issue and if im treating it as a 6 min fight with the same rotation, I dont get why my dps is varying so much. Sure, RNG, soc procs and resists/misses play a part, but this much?
It all comes down to AW up-time and cooldown management.

Your 1920 dps attempt you had AW up for 20s of 102s (19.6%), you cast CS every 6.38s, and you judged every 10.2s. On the other hand, your 1581 attempt you had AW up for 40s of 326s (12.3%), you cast CS every 6.65s, and you judged every 13.58s.

RNG plays a part as well, but most of the difference can be attributed to the above factors.
#4451SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ragnor
If you have 10k raid buffed you'd have to do 20k damage in 1 swing to 1 shot yourself, that's extremely unlikely. If you drop ultra low in one swing stop attacking for a second until your're topped up. If you don't have over 10k hp raid buffed why don't you?
#4452SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Orcdestroyer
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
If you have 10k raid buffed you'd have to do 20k damage in 1 swing to 1 shot yourself, that's extremely unlikely. If you drop ultra low in one swing stop attacking for a second until your're topped up. If you don't have over 10k hp raid buffed why don't you?
I do. I guess it mainly happened after a CS crit. So I was down to like 70% health at the time. I guess I just need to stagger CS. Thanks for the help everyone much appreciated.
#4453SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kadrok
Hit Rating

I've been messing around with Rawr and Bellator's spreadsheet for quite a while now, trying to determine my end of the line gear set.

I believe that I have played around with pretty much every combo of gear; however, I may have missed something, so I was wondering
what other Horde paladins have determined to be the best combination of hit rating pieces in order to reach the cap in their ultimate end-game setup.
#4454SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
If I was a horde I would do something like this:

CTProfiles.net: World of Warcraft Profiles � Saltybelf � Main

The KJ gloves werent an option but those eak out the leather ones.
#4455SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
There are the top choices when Rawr is loaded is loaded for me, gives 9% hit.

I could not fit in Borderland Paingrips without being under the hit cap.

[Duplicitous Guise] with RED and 10 strength
[Hard Khorium Choker] with 5 agility/5 hit
[Demontooth Shoulderpads] with 10 strength and 5 strength/7 stamina
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic] with 3x 10 strength
[Lightbringer Bands] with 10 strength
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] with 10 str and 5 str/5 crit
[Lightbringer Girdle] with 10 str
[Felfury Legplates] with 10 str, 5str/7stam, 5 str/5 crit
[Lightbringer Boots] with 10 str
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Apolyon, the Soul-render]
[Libram of Avengement]
#4456SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
(As a side note to BiS gear, it seems being JC/LW is the way to go in terms of crafted gear. And if you care enough, you can level Enchanting to enchant the two BiS rings.)

Here's my literal "Best-In-Slot" which uses all that amazing leather gear...

[Duplicitous Guise] with RED and 10 str
[Clutch of Demise]
[Pauldrons of Berserking] with 5 str/5 sta and 5 str/5 crit
[Cloak of Unforgivable Sin] with 10 hit
[Carapace of Sun and Shadow] with 5 hit/5 agi and 2x 10 str
[Lightbringer Bands] with 10 str
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk] with 2x 10 str
[Lightbringer Girdle] with 10 str
[Felfury Legplates] with 5 str/5 sta, 5 str/5 crit, and 10 str
[Lightbringer Boots] with 10 str
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Dragonspine Trophy] - (or [Blackened Naaru Sliver] if it stacks off SoB)
[Shard of Contempt]
[Apolyon, the Soul-render] with 3x 10 str
[Libram of Avengement]

I would sit at, according to RAWR...

2289 AP
37.78% Crit
410 Haste
315 Armor Penetration
Hit capped
Expertise capped
+ Avengement Proc
+ DST/BNS Proc

I'm not currently a JC, but I've contemplated dropping Engineer for it for the neckpiece. It all comes down to where my gear is at at those given points and the availability of the item/pattern. However, the difference between shoulder, glove, and neck choices are all quite small. The alternatives end up at about 10-15 DPS upgrade in an optimal raid situation.

Also, I <3 my Mote Extractor and Gyrocopter and want to carry Engineering into WotLK. So yes, I'm sacrificing alittle DPS to keep my favorite profession ^_^
#4457SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tinderfitles
Hi, I'm rather new to the theory crafting and have a question regarding the "casting off" of intellect. With all the best in slot post, I notice that most seem not to have any stats regarding intellect at all, and in fact I do believe that one of the models sported ~4k mana.

I suppose I should get to the question then, what the concrete floor as far as mana? How low can you go until it starts hurting your dps?


I've been trying to read up on retribution as much as I can so I'm sorry if this question comes off as stupid.
#4458SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Theras
Originally Posted by tinderfitles View Post
I suppose I should get to the question then, what the concrete floor as far as mana? How low can you go until it starts hurting your dps?
That really depends on what your regen is like, what your cycle is like, and how long the encounter lasts. If you use mana at Rate A/s, replenish your mana at Rate B/s, and are in an encounter of Length C seconds, your minimum allowable mana is defined a:

X = (A - B) * C

Now practically, there is no floor because in most situations either your regeneration exceeds your expenditures, or your base mana and base intellect is adequate to cover the fight length.
#4459SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonwing
I'm Curious to see if anybody has done a similar item composition for alliance paladins? As although several of those pieces would be fantastic upgrades for some, the haste is not quite as adequate for me, which would possibly leave the door open to other upgades.
#4460SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
For myself (as a blacksmith) I'm looking at this for my ideal set:

Helm: [Crown of Anasterian]: Relentless Earthstorm, 10 STR
Neck: [Choker of Endless Nightmares]
Shoulders: [Pauldrons of Berserking]: 10 STR, 5 STR/5 Crit
Cloak: [Cloak of Unforgivable Sin]: 5 Hit rating/5 AGI
Chest: [Hard Khorium Battleplate]: 10 STR, 10 STR, 10 STR
Bracers: [Lightbringer Bands]: 5 STR/7 STA
Gloves: [Hard Khorium Battlefists]: 10 STR, 5 STR/5 Crit
Belt: [Lightbringer Girdle]: 10 STR
Pants: [Felfury Legplates]: 5 STR/7 STA, 10 STR, 5 STR/5 Crit
Boots: [Lightbringer Boots]: 10 STR
Ring 1: [Band of Ruinous Delight]
Ring 2:[Stormrage Signet Ring]
Trinket 1: [Shard of Contempt]
Trinket 2: [Dragonspine Trophy]
Weapon: [Apolyon, the Soul-render]: 10 STR, 10 STR, 10 STR
Relic: [Libram of Divine Judgement]

As my guild refuses to allow me to roll on leather gear (and I already have the plate gloves) I just ignored it all. I'm sure there's a much better set out there for people who get the option to downgrade armor.
#4461SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2HamSlammer
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
As my guild refuses to allow me to roll on leather gear (and I already have the plate gloves) I just ignored it all. I'm sure there's a much better set out there for people who get the option to downgrade armor.
Same with my guild, but after the Rogues have it, it's an open roll between everyone else. I have a mapped out set for all plate too (minus the gloves, as I already have [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]) that is sadly 200 DPS lower than the Leather equivalents.
#4462SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tinderfitles
Originally Posted by Theras View Post
That really depends on what your regen is like, what your cycle is like, and how long the encounter lasts. If you use mana at Rate A/s, replenish your mana at Rate B/s, and are in an encounter of Length C seconds, your minimum allowable mana is defined a:

X = (A - B) * C

Now practically, there is no floor because in most situations either your regeneration exceeds your expenditures, or your base mana and base intellect is adequate to cover the fight length.
Thanks Theras, it just seemed odd to me that with such a low mana pool using best in slots, that your over all dps wouldn't be hurt.
#4463SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Originally Posted by tinderfitles View Post
Thanks Theras, it just seemed odd to me that with such a low mana pool using best in slots, that your over all dps wouldn't be hurt.
It's not so much that we don't like mana as it is that there simply is no alternative (since Sunwell).

Being dependent on so many stats as we have always been (all the melee stats + mana + mana regen + spelldamage + spellhit in varying degrees) has always been a blatantly obvious core defect in the spec.

It took a whole expansion for Blizzard to actually acknowledge this and they finally did remove spelldamage (and int) from our gear in the last patch (Sunwell patch).

Unfortunately, the baby steps taken are not even remotely close to fully addressing the problems, some might argue it's worse than if they had left things as they were. With the exception of the CS mechanics change (going off weapon damage rather than spell damage) nothing was changed in how our class works.

They removed spelldamage/int from our gear, yet didn't change in any way how our abilities benefit from those stats or give us talents to get the mana we lost (a str/ap-> mp5/int talent or even a new mana restore ability).

Further, according to blue posts Blizzard is actively refusing to work on any "major class changes/fixes" until WOTLK or right before WOTLK (if someone has the actual quote bookmarked, feel free to post it here).

I find it silly that they can just completely ignore this with a straight face and tell us "well soon, someday it 'might' be better, you know in the next expansion, maybe" like this is somehow supposed to help us "now" in Sunwell raiding.

It's hard to imagine they're actually that thick, which leads me to often believe there's some internal marketing research telling them "leave the class broken and tell them you will fix it at some point", the "carrot on the stick" if you will.


To bring it to a T: I'd say we're currently in an awkward transition phase where gear has already taken the next evolutionary step while our mechanics/talents are still lagging behind.

Going for gear without mana is simply making the best out of what we have.
#4464SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Having no Int isn't bad, at Tier 6 you have a set bonus that gives Mana, JoW that gives 74 mana, Spiritual Attunement, and Mana Potions if you need it.


It would be nice to add a mp5 from strength talent, however Paladins don't have leaked Wrath talents yet, so you have to wait until then.
#4465SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
The devs have been telling us to "wait and see" since TBC came out.

Originally we were supposed to get fixes in 2.2. That was pushed back because of the Voice Chat thing ("Just wait until 2.3, you'll be happy!").

In 2.3 we were told the devs wanted to pay attention to Rogues and Shamans and got a token buff and an unnerf because of a massive spam campaign on the forums ("Just wait until 2.4, you'll be happy!").

In 2.4 the devs decided they didn't want to screw with class balance until the next expansion because of this "esport" bullshit they keep throwing around ("Just wait until 3.0, you'll be happy!").*

I still find it funny that our totem cousins get massive changes handed to them in a single patch that addressed a huge amount of their problems (patch 2.3 with the AP > SD conversion and Shamanistic Focus) while any change to paladins has to be so ultra-gradual that we are actually worse off for a long period of time because our our gear has already transitioned to a new system that our mechanics don't yet support.

Just my usual rant. We'll see how things are soon enough.

*And on a side note, did anyone else find it ironic the blues are worried about paladins being "the gods of the PvP universe" when there was only 1 paladin total represented in the top 20 arena tournement realm teams (the next lowest class was Shamans with 7 total)? Sometimes I really get the feeling the devs are very out of touch with how the actual game is rather than their controlled office tests.
#4466SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kyne
Originally Posted by Kadrok View Post
I've been messing around with Rawr and Bellator's spreadsheet for quite a while now, trying to determine my end of the line gear set.

I believe that I have played around with pretty much every combo of gear; however, I may have missed something, so I was wondering
what other Horde paladins have determined to be the best combination of hit rating pieces in order to reach the cap in their ultimate end-game setup.
If I'm going to use Leather:

[Duplicitous Guise] with 34 Atp/16 Hit Enchant
[Stormrage Signet Ring]
[Lightbringer Boots] with Surefooted Enchant
[Cloak of Unforgivable Sin] with 5Agi/5Hit Gem

If I'm only going to use Plate:
[Stormrage Signet Ring]
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] with 5Agi/5Hit Gem
[Crown of Anasterian] with 34atp/16 Hit Enchant
[Lightbringer Boots] with Surefooted Enchant
[Cloak of Unforgivable Sin] with 10 Hit Gem
#4467SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
So, I just did Brutalus and I came to realize that the TPS on those fights is so high that I did the whole fight without a Blessing of Salvation.

So, assuming three blessings you can have Kings, Might, and Wis. Having wisdom gives you about 3k extra mana for the fight.

For most fight I think this also holds. Gonna try twins sans salv.

edit: I salved myself for the first 30 secs and then threw might on and was fine for the whole fight.

Last edited by Saltycracker : Yesterday at 10:57 AM.
#4468SourcePosted on <=2.0.0odie85
RAWR

this is a RAWR bug report, please delete this post if this is in the wrong place, OR if this bug has already been reported. Zurm has retired (my personal "ask jeeves") and not sure who is currently keeping track of bug/fixes.

After getting a DST last night, I opened RAWR 14.1 to see which items are in need of an upgrade the most. After looking at each item, for shits and giggles I checked the "ranged" item slot. The first thing I noticed was that Crossbows came in as items it suggested, (would be a DPS decrease,) I found this odd because we can only use librams. What came as a surprise to me was that when fully raid buffed, Libram of Divine Judgement is rated as 25.39 dps, and Libram of Avengement comes up as 17.41 dps. I thought to myself, that is not correct, I must have selected the wrong Seal under 'options.' I checked and I did have SoB selected, again for giggles I switched it to SoC. It now rates Libram of Divine Judgement lower at 22.90 dps, and Libram of Avengement as 15.86 dps. It also does not include Libram of Righteous Power, it is not better for horde or alliance then the ones I listed, but might want to throw that in for the horde ret paladins who are unlucky with Libram of Avengement. (It took me 22 runs to get the libram from the boss in H-BF)

I just wanted to bring this bug to light.

*edit* grammar
#4469SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Zurm is still maintaining Rawr.Ret, you just have to PM him the bug reports. I believe he already knows about LoDJ counting for SoB, and crossbows showing up. But it'll be best if you PM him to be sure.
#4470SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hailley
Hello, I been a long time reader of this thread and thanks to this thread I have been able perform decently (imo.) as a alliance raiding ret paladin.

Now I have a personal question that I would like to ask.

On gorefiend, with my current gear I have been able to hit 1600-1800 dps, but lately my dps has drop despite me picking up some upgrades (down to 1350~ dps)

here was last nights wws (1% wipe)
Wow Web Stats

and a week before
Wow Web Stats

When I examine the WWS, I noticed a really bad mismanagement of CD/GCD and thus losing out on CS.
To improve I decided to pick a few macros to "relearn" the timing of CS and the 9sec judgement cycle

The question is I have gotten 2 macros and I would like to know what is the difference b/t them and is there anything else I am missing that would drop my dps this much (1800 down to 1350)?

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike

/castsequence Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command(Rank 6), Crusader Strik

edit
Another question, what does the reset=10 do exactly?


Thanks in advance
#4471SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nisall
Reset=10 means that the macro order resets after 10 seconds even if you haven't the complete castsequence. Unless I'm completely missing something those 2 macros are the same except for the 'reset=10' condition.

Looking at those WWS reports you linked I think your whole guild dropped ~400-500 dps if you were doing 1600-1800 before because now the highest dps is doing 1700-1800 dps.

Last edited by Nisall : Yesterday at 5:38 PM.
#4472SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hailley
Our guild is "casual" so I have been top 3-5 on the dps meter and wws.

Also do most high end ret pallies use a macro such liek the ones I posted above or do they have do their own thing.
#4473SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Hailley View Post
Our guild is "casual" so I have been top 3-5 on the dps meter and wws.

Also do most high end ret pallies use a macro such liek the ones I posted above or do they have do their own thing.
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command

/cast Avenging Wrath
/use Haste Potion

These are the only two macros I use, but I like to manage my CS, consecration and exorcism cooldowns myself.
#4474SourcePosted on <=2.0.0JettJaguar
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command
Is this macro supposed to automatically reseal or do you activate it twice?
#4475SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by JettJaguar View Post
Is this macro supposed to automatically reseal or do you activate it twice?
I button mash it, so I hit it twice in the middle of my swing timer
#4476SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Buliwyf
You can have a judge/reseal macro in one button press, but you have to be careful not to mash it otherwise you will wind up judging without resealing or resealing without judging thanks to the GCD.

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood
#4477SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
Slower weapon means more damage on crusader strike AND Seal of Command. I know for a fact rawr does take the proc into account, and that sounds about right.
I really hate to 'beat a dead horse', but could you double-check that for me? I just got back to tinkering around with Ret.RAWR again at the enviable prospect of potentially being able to raid as Retribution and I'd really rather save myself the 5 Nether Vortices it would take to make a Stormherald if it's not actually going to be an upgrade.

"Napkin Math" suggests the proc on Lionheart Executioner would yield an average of 50 strength:

100 Strength @ 3 PPM, 10 second procs. 30 seconds up-time every min, 50% uptime, average Strength from Proc = 50.

Yet this is not handled like other Proc Effects where the average is simply tallied into the character sheet. I equip the Lionheart Executioner and my strength/AP only increases by the base amount on the weapon; I equip Libram of Divine Judgement and I gain 89 AP, the average AP gain from the proc effect.


If I go in manually and edit the item to have 102 Strength (52 base item + 50 Average Proc value) it shows up as beating Stormherald by around 7 DPS.



Originally Posted by Cathmor View Post
Just a clarification:
This is why Stormherald is better - its damage range of 386-579 clearly outpaces Lionheart's 365-549, which makes your SoComm procs hit harder.
Certainly this is true an average half of the time, but half of the time LHE's range will be 421-605, which clearly out matches Stormherald's range, and by around twice the amount Stormherald outmatches the unprocced Lionheart Executioner.





Again, very sorry for 'beating a dead horse', and I truly appreciate your time and patience with me. I promise, I'm not unable to be convinced, I just want to fully understand.



EDIT: Fixed a silly error. 0=-)

Last edited by Petersen : Yesterday at 10:50 AM.
#4478SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
Certainly this is true an average half of the time, but half of the time LHE's range will be 421-605, which clearly out matches Stormherald's range, and by around twice the amount Stormherald outmatches the unprocced Lionheart Executioner.
The averaged proc amount (50 strength) with Divine Strength and Kings gives you 110 attack power. 110 attack power on a 3.6 weapon increases damage by ~28. Your average damage range on LHE is therefore 393-577, with a topend still lower than Stormherald's. Combine this with the AP normalization for non-normalized attacks (Seal of Command) and SH will still come out the winner.
#4479SourcePosted on <=2.0.0gcbirzan
Originally Posted by Buliwyf View Post
You can have a judge/reseal macro in one button press, but you have to be careful not to mash it otherwise you will wind up judging without resealing or resealing without judging thanks to the GCD.
Actually, judgement isn't on the GCD, so you cannot reseal and not be able to judge because of that. If that were the case, the macro wouldn't work, as judging would trigger a GCD not allowing you to reseal. It's the judgement's CD that may screw you over, but if you reseal without judging, you just lose mana, whereas the other way around can cost you some damage.
#4480SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
The averaged proc amount (50 strength) with Divine Strength and Kings gives you 110 attack power. 110 attack power on a 3.6 weapon increases damage by ~28. Your average damage range on LHE is therefore 393-577, with a topend still lower than Stormherald's. Combine this with the AP normalization for non-normalized attacks (Seal of Command) and SH will still come out the winner.


I didn't average the strength proc because I stated that half the time the full 100 strength will be in effect, without kings, that is 220 AP, or 56.57 (I truncated) Damage Per Swing on a 3.6 speed weapon, bringing the Lionheart's damage range to my stated range half the time.

Also, while yes, your stated top end is still 2 lower than the Stormherald the LOW end is 7 *higher* than the stormherald's, resulting in a higher mean swing damage.


I did not consider the AP contribution difference on the SoComm procs while not under the effects of the Lionheart's Strength proc.
#4481SourcePosted on <=2.0.0odie85
Petersen,

I would suggest to you that you pick up the badge ax. Your armory link does not work, so I cannot see your level of progression, but with hyjal, bt, and za gear while using SoCom, the badge ax still comes out 29ish dps higher then stormherld and 37 higher then lionheart (in rawr using my gear). It will save you money, and you will not have to use your nethers, plus you are buying a tier 6 quality weapon with with badges!
#4482SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nisall
Unless I'm mistaken the Lionheart proc doesn't have an internal CD therefore saying that it will be up 30sec every minunte only holds in perfect situations which rarely occur.
#4483SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by odie85 View Post
Petersen,

I would suggest to you that you pick up the badge ax. Your armory link does not work, so I cannot see your level of progression, but with hyjal, bt, and za gear while using SoCom, the badge ax still comes out 29ish dps higher then stormherld and 37 higher then lionheart (in rawr using my gear). It will save you money, and you will not have to use your nethers, plus you are buying a tier 6 quality weapon with with badges!

Yeah... That would be the obvious choice, if I were a Blood Elf. But as a Human, attributing the weapon 50 strength as a constant (which is the only way I know how to emulate the Proc effect, since I can't seem to see any other modeling of the effect) it actually beats out the Axe by around 4.5 DPS (according to RAWR, which, I know, is not the end-all, but I don't have much other tangible way to compare gear).

Be back after lunch.


Originally Posted by Nisall View Post
Unless I'm mistaken the Lionheart proc doesn't have an internal CD therefore saying that it will be up 30sec every minunte only holds in perfect situations which rarely occur.
I know that. I don't know how else to account for it, though. But remember, SoV is 95% reliable. /giggles (that's a joke)
#4484SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by odie85 View Post
I would suggest to you that you pick up the badge ax. Your armory link does not work, so I cannot see your level of progression, but with hyjal, bt, and za gear while using SoCom, the badge ax still comes out 29ish dps higher then stormherld and 37 higher then lionheart (in rawr using my gear). It will save you money, and you will not have to use your nethers, plus you are buying a tier 6 quality weapon with with badges!
Losing the human expertise racial is a fairly massive blow to sustained DPS. The badge axe is pretty terrible for human pallys for that reason unless you're already capped without the racial (in which case you want felspine since it is miles ahead of the badge axe).

Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
I didn't average the strength proc because I stated that half the time the full 100 strength will be in effect, without kings, that is 220 AP, or 56.57 (I truncated) Damage Per Swing on a 3.6 speed weapon, bringing the Lionheart's damage range to my stated range half the time.
You're comparing the average damage range on SH to an inflated value for LHE. That is very bad form my friend, misleading information helps no one. If you're going to compare the average of one you have to compare it with the average of the second one.

Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
I did not consider the AP contribution difference on the SoComm procs while not under the effects of the Lionheart's Strength proc.
Before I go into a very lengthy set of calculations would you mind answering one question? Do you understand AP normalization for normalized versus non-normalized attacks? If so it will save me a good deal of typing that I would like to avoid.
#4485SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
You're comparing the average damage range on SH to an inflated value for LHE. That is very bad form my friend, misleading information helps no one. If you're going to compare the average of one you have to compare it with the average of the second one.
I'm not sure I agree that the information was necessarily misleading. not more misleading than your post. If you really want to get down to the nity gritty you have to say the average Swing Damage for the Stormherald is 482.5, the average damage of the Lionheart is 457, and is 513 under the proc. theoretically half the Lionheart's swings will be with a mean swing damage of the first and half will be of the last, so the overall mean swing will be 485, still higher than the Stormherald This also discounts the 2 Strength and 10 Agility advantage of the Lionheart's base stats, as well as Kings and other %-based AP/Strength buffs, which would enchance the advantage of the Lionheart's Proc.

As noted before, there is no internal cooldown on this weapon, so if luck likes you, you could see much more than 50% up time, and if not, could theoretically see 0 uptime, but over an infinite timeline you should theoretically see half your swings (or at the least half your swing time) falling under the effects of the proc.


Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Before I go into a very lengthy set of calculations would you mind answering one question? Do you understand AP normalization for normalized versus non-normalized attacks? If so it will save me a good deal of typing that I would like to avoid.
Yes, I do. All instant attacks with two-handed weapons gain a benefit from AP as if they were using a 3.3 speed weapon, regardless of the actual swing speed. They do [WR+((AP/14) * 3.3)] Where WR is the damage range listed on the weapon. there are sometimes additional modifiers, such as crusader's strike would multiply the whole value by 1.1 and that would be the damage you deal before armor. Mortal Strike simply adds a certain amount of flat damage to the result, again, giving you pre-armor damage.

All non-instant attacks, Procs like SoComm, or On-Next-Swing attacks like Cleave and Heroic strike are NOT normalized, and as such use the weapon damage range in your character sheet modified by whatever the attack does (multiplied by .7 for SoComm, static modifier for Heroic Strike and Cleave).

This is my understanding, is there an error in it?
#4486SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zupal
Originally Posted by Hailley View Post
Our guild is "casual" so I have been top 3-5 on the dps meter and wws.

Also do most high end ret pallies use a macro such liek the ones I posted above or do they have do their own thing.
I use a few of macros (Judge/SoB, SotC application, Drums, Wings/haste etc) but I generally stopping using the one-button cast-seqence ones. I do most of my cooldown juggling by hand due to consecration/Exorcism and CS/Judge clipping.
#4487SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hailley
I use a few of macros (Judge/SoB, SotC application, Drums, Wings/haste etc) but I generally stopping using the one-button cast-seqence ones. I do most of my cooldown juggling by hand due to consecration/Exorcism and CS/Judge clipping.
Hm, out of curiosity, what is the downside/con of using

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike

with consecration during the Judgement and CS on CD?
#4488SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Hailley View Post
Hm, out of curiosity, what is the downside/con of using

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike

with consecration during the Judgement and CS on CD?
For the same reason thinking watching the harry potter movies gives you the same experience as reading the books.
#4489SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
Yes, I do. All instant attacks with two-handed weapons gain a benefit from AP as if they were using a 3.3 speed weapon, regardless of the actual swing speed. They do [WR+((AP/14) * 3.3)] Where WR is the damage range listed on the weapon. there are sometimes additional modifiers, such as crusader's strike would multiply the whole value by 1.1 and that would be the damage you deal before armor. Mortal Strike simply adds a certain amount of flat damage to the result, again, giving you pre-armor damage.

All non-instant attacks, Procs like SoComm, or On-Next-Swing attacks like Cleave and Heroic strike are NOT normalized, and as such use the weapon damage range in your character sheet modified by whatever the attack does (multiplied by .7 for SoComm, static modifier for Heroic Strike and Cleave).

This is my understanding, is there an error in it?
Entirely correct, and it saves me a ton of time, thanks.

Looking at the average damage ranges we can see that the white and CS attacks will be roughly even (LHE will most likely be slightly higher here). However, thanks to the static PPM and non-normalized nature of Seal of Command Stormherald will pull much further ahead. With either weapon you will have 7 procs of Seal of Command per minute. Seal of Command is non-normalized, meaning it gains AP based on your base weapon speed, meaning SoC procs while using Stormherald will be much larger than those with LHE.

Take for example 2000 Attack Power.

Your SoC damage with LHE (before percentage modifiers and crits) will look like this:

( ( ( Attack Power / 14 ) * Speed ) + Weapon Damage ) * .7 )
( ( ( 2000 / 14 ) * 3.6 ) + 485 ) * .7 )
699.5
/
With Stormherald you'll be looking at:

( ( ( Attack Power / 14 ) * Speed ) + Weapon Damage ) * .7 )
( ( ( 2000 / 14 ) * 3.8 ) + 482.5 ) * .7 )
717.75
With percentage modifiers, crits, etc. the difference becomes even larger (a bigger number multiplied by a percentage will give a proportionally larger number than a smaller number multiplied by the same percentage). That is why SH will still win in most cases.
#4490SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post

( ( ( Attack Power / 14 ) * Speed ) + Weapon Damage ) * .7 )
( ( ( 2000 / 14 ) * 3.6 ) + 485 ) * .7 )
699.5
/
With Stormherald you'll be looking at:

( ( ( Attack Power / 14 ) * Speed ) + Weapon Damage ) * .7 )
( ( ( 2000 / 14 ) * 3.8 ) + 482.5 ) * .7 )
717.75
With percentage modifiers, crits, etc. the difference becomes even larger (a bigger number multiplied by a percentage will give a proportionally larger number than a smaller number multiplied by the same percentage). That is why SH will still win in most cases.
So that's 18.25 damage per proc * 7 procs per minute = 127.75 Damage per minute.

On the other hand, you're getting 485 (average strength Proc Inclusive weapon damage of the LHE) * 60/3.6 (Swings per minute, not rounded or truncated) *.63 (armor reduction for 6200 armor raid bosses) = 5092.5 DPM with the LHE, or (same calculation, different numbers) 4799.605... DPM with the LHE. This is POST ARMOR DPM (I'm using the minute scale just to have bigger numbers, for a more easily seen quantitative difference) of the LHE is .


So the bones are this:

292.894... more unbuffed white DPM (which is enhanced by armor reduction on bosses) with the LHE
(268.858...) on 7700 armor bosses
vs
127.75 more unbuffed SoComm DMP (enhanced by Misery and JotC).


Also, not truncating Swings Per Minute (60/swingspeed in the above calculations) works in favor of the Stormherald, as his decimal for SWP is .78947.... and the LHE's remainder is .66666...



NOTE: I would like to say you *almost* convinced me with this post, I was writing a concession when I thought to investigate how much the .2 second faster swing speed coupled with the higher average damage affected white damage output.
#4491SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
It's 18.25 DPS more before the following modifiers:

Sanctity Aura (10%)
Improved Sanctity Aura (2%)
Crusade (3%)
Misery (5%)
Vengeance (15%)
Judgement of the Crusader (44 non-modified damage)
Critical Strikes (200% * crit chance)

The gap will continue to get larger and larger. I really don't feel like running all the numbers right now but Rawr can do it for you, so what you're seeing in there is the god-honest truth.
#4492SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
It's 18.25 DPS more before the following modifiers:

Sanctity Aura (10%)
Improved Sanctity Aura (2%)
Crusade (3%)
Misery (5%)
Vengeance (15%)
Judgement of the Crusader (44 non-modified damage)
Critical Strikes (200% * crit chance)

The gap will continue to get larger and larger. I really don't feel like running all the numbers right now but Rawr can do it for you, so what you're seeing in there is the god-honest truth.

18.25 DPS? O.o If LHE is doing 699.5 SoComm damage 7 times a minute, and Stormherald is doing 717.75 SoComm 7 times a minute, that's 4896.5 DPM or 81.6083 DPS vs 5024.25 DPM or 83.7375 DPS How does this come out to a 18.25 DPS differential Pre-Buffs.

Also, your list contains several items which would likewise affect any white damage advantage LHE might have. -and I forgot to account for 2K AP, so I guess I'll rework all that. Edit forthcoming.





So, at flat 2K AP from other gear, we have LHE with a theoretical 2000+102*2.2=2224.4 AP, and Stormherald with 2000+42*2.2=2092.4


2224.4 AP
*
3.6 speed
---------
571.9885 more DPSw (Damage Per Swing)

365 - 549 DPSw Range
+
572 (rounding for convenience)
---------
937-1121 DPSw Range

1029 Mean DPSw
*
(60/3.6) SPM (Swings Per Minute)
---------
17150 DPM (285.833 DPS)
*
.63 and 57.83
---------
180.07479 DPS Post Armor (6200)
165.2972239 DPS Post Armor (7700)





2092.4 AP
*
3.8 speed
---------
567.9371 more DPSw

386 - 579 DPSw Range
+
568 (rounding for convenience)
---------
945-1147 DPSw Range

1046 Mean DPSw
*
(60/3.8) SPM
---------
16515.789 DPM (275.263 DPS)
*
.63 and .5783
---------
173.41569 DPS Post Armor (6200)
159.1845929 DPS Post Armor (7700)






180.07479 DPS Post Armor (6200)
165.2972239 DPS Post Armor (7700)


VS

173.41569 DPS Post Armor (6200)
159.1845929 DPS Post Armor (7700)


=
6.6591 DPS Post Armor (6200)
6.112631 DPS Post Armor (7700)




Conclusion I have reached thus far: For some reason the LHE benefits more from counting the mean swing while under the proc and not under the proc separate and averaging the mean swings of each of these two states, as opposed to considering the proc's average effect a constant. In this most recent calculation, this, I believe, is the cause of the disparity between my previous calculations and my current ones. It is the only thing I did differently.

The LHE loses approximately 2.1 SoComm DPS for 6.1-6.6 white DPS W.R.T. the Stormherald at 2000 AP. At 2000 AP, LHE is the winner by 4-4.5 DPS, unbuffed. Most of the things that can be done to buff that 2.1 DPS also buff the 6.1-6.6 DPS. The question as far as buffs go is this: how does this disparity between the two weapons change as AP increases (or decreases), and can Misery, Sanctity (not improved, it applies to both) Aura, and JotC overcome Sunders, CoE, and Fairy Fire? Additionally, we're only looking at SoComm versus White damage, what about CS damage? I would think with the (average) 132 AP advantage the LHE enjoys, CS would be firmly on the side of the LHE.



EDIT: So apparently the equal sign does some funky things. I'm sorry this post takes up so much room, vertical math has always been easier for me to follow, so that's how I work when doing simple math.

Last edited by Petersen : Yesterday at 5:30 PM.
#4493SourcePosted on <=2.0.0flyingtoastr
It just occurred to me that we're doing this wrong.

The proc from LHE doesn't get added to weapon damage without first being modified by the AP multiplier. Therefore you can't use the average damage at all but will have to run double calculations, one at x AP and one at x + proc AP and average them together.

This alone is the deathblow to LHE. It's weapon damage is always going to be far below Stormherald's for non-normalized weapon attacks.

And as I keep repeating, I'm fucking tired and I don't feel like arguing about this with someone who can take it and plug it into Rawr or the spreadsheet and get his answer. Forgive me if I make mistakes.
#4494SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post

And as I keep repeating, I'm fucking tired and I don't feel like arguing about this with someone who can take it and plug it into Rawr or the spreadsheet and get his answer. Forgive me if I make mistakes.
I did' thanks, and it's telling me LHE blows up the SH when you consider the proc a constant 50 Strength effect. Kind of like I said in my first recent post about this.
#4495SourcePosted on <=2.0.0zeusal
Leader of the Pack vs. Ret

I never did find a definate answer to this question. For the optimal melee group combo, mangle debuff, +healing from crits, and 5% crit increase. Did anyone run the numbers? If I missed the post please, could someone point me too it.

I also wanted to mention, typically in a complete night in BT our two rogues see 45-49% of their effective healing coming from ILoftP. It's much easier to DPS when you are alive
#4496SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
I think you guys could simplify that math quite a bit.


[Lionheart Executioner]:
457 avg. damage
3.6 AS
+10 Str
+2 Agi (ignoring this for the math)
+50 Str proc (on average, using Peterson's assumption)


[Stormherald]:
482.5 avg. damage
3.8 AS

The difference between the two weapons is 60 Str (120 AP, 145.2 w/ DS + Kings) vs. +0.2 AS and 25.5 weapon damage. The main difference between the two is in un-normalized SoC procs. Borrowing from Daz's equations, but using DPS:

LHE SoC DPS
( ( AP + 120 ) / 14 * 3.6 ) * .7 * 7 / 60
AP * 3.6 * .00583 + 2.52 DPS

SH SoC DPS
( AP / 14 * 3.8 +25.5 ) * .7 * 7 /60
AP * 3.8 * .00583 + 2.08 DPS


DPS difference
LHE SoC DPS - SH SoC DPS
AP * ( -0.2 ) * .00583 + 0.44 DPS
AP * ( -.001166 ) + 0.44 DPS


That tells you that LHE has more base DPS but that SH scales faster. The point where both weapons have the same SoC DPS is where AP = 377. At 2k AP, SH does 1.89 more DPS than the LHE. At 4K AP, the difference increases to 4.22 DPS.


For other abilities:
Autoattack: 120 / 14 = 8.57 DPS (LHE's bonus AP)
CS: ( 120 / 14 * 3.3 - 25.5 ) * 1.1 / 6 = 0.51 DPS ( LHE's bonus AP vs. SH's higher base damage )


At 4K AP, ignoring raid buffs, DS, BoK, and various other things, total DPS is 7.5~ in favor of LHE. This changes if we model the +Str proc differently. Reduce the uptime of the proc by half, and I think the SH pulls back ahead. So the real question is .. how much uptime do we really get on that proc?


EDIT: I hate how these forums mangle equations.

Last edited by Fiola : Yesterday at 6:49 PM.
#4497SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sofy
Hey guys what's up.

I been readina round for a bit and haven't been able to find my answer.

So i was talkin to a ret pally on my server that usually pushes out about 1k dps on average and I asked him what he thinks about haste. He said that it's really useless if you have a shaman in your group using a windfury totem. Now currently, Im in the middle of putting together a haste set, but after finding out this news, I was wondering if it would be more advantageous for me to put together an ArPen set.

What do you guys think? I s he right or no?

Thanks in advance for any help
#4498SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dram
For Blood Elves haste is an amazing stat. It sounds to me like this paladin believes that there is a CD on WF totem; this is incorrect the 3 second cooldown only applies to the shaman self buff.

Last edited by Dram : Yesterday at 8:16 PM. Reason: Bad grammer
#4499SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Pyralissa
I'm sure it will still lag behind, but does the recent alpha update so that hit and crit rating affects melee and spell mechanics mean that Seal of Vengeance might become usable?
#4500SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Fiola
Originally Posted by Pyralissa View Post
I'm sure it will still lag behind, but does the recent alpha update so that hit and crit rating affects melee and spell mechanics mean that Seal of Vengeance might become usable?
For tanking, sure. (But it's had its uses there for a while, anyways) For DPS, SoV still does not scale off the stats on our DPS gear.


It does have nice base damage relative to other seals... but at this point, even if it proc'd every hit, crit'd every hit... It still wouldn't do that well, since it'd be doing base damage.


Though I'd like to point out that the Rank3 SoV on Alpha has greatly increased base damage. 1666 JoV at 5 stack, whereas JoR has 300~, and stunned JoC has around 600. It would probably be the DPS seal for under-geared Ret paladins. (Powerful judgement, chance to crit per proc, and I expect the scaling problem to be fixed in WotLK)
#4501SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Buliwyf
Originally Posted by Sofy View Post
Hey guys what's up.

I been readina round for a bit and haven't been able to find my answer.

So i was talkin to a ret pally on my server that usually pushes out about 1k dps on average and I asked him what he thinks about haste. He said that it's really useless if you have a shaman in your group using a windfury totem. Now currently, Im in the middle of putting together a haste set, but after finding out this news, I was wondering if it would be more advantageous for me to put together an ArPen set.

What do you guys think? I s he right or no?

Thanks in advance for any help
Give that Paladin a slap and tell him to come read this thread. Haste is *always* useful. Even for alliance Paladins who use SoC, haste is still good, just not "as" good as it is for Blood Elves, for which haste is awesome. Largely because SoB procs on every hit, more haste is more hits and more white damage but ALSO it is more SoB damage too. Then it's more damage to you so it's more healing, making more mana from heals (as well as more mana gained from JoW from faster hitting). More mana means more dps, if you have spare mana then consecrate more. In short, get as much haste as you can without sacrificing your hit cap and your strength.

WF is an added bonus and does not detract from these great benefits.
#4502SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Exemplar
Originally Posted by zeusal View Post
I never did find a definate answer to this question. For the optimal melee group combo, mangle debuff, +healing from crits, and 5% crit increase. Did anyone run the numbers? If I missed the post please, could someone point me too it.

I also wanted to mention, typically in a complete night in BT our two rogues see 45-49% of their effective healing coming from ILoftP. It's much easier to DPS when you are alive
Mangle is a debuff - affects entire raid, just like Imp JotC. Being in melee group for this is unnecessary, your rogues are buffed regardless.

Unless you have 2 Enhance Shaman, the paladin should go with melee. Lack of WF is ridiculous DPS loss for the Ret. Feral druids get nothing from WF. If you have several BM hunters - form a hunter group. The Feral's +crit aura helps with Ferocious Inspiration. Also the hunters hopefully have a shaman dropping Grace of Air (as opposed to hoping your Enhance is totem twisting), which the Feral will love. I believe the Hunter's pets can heal from ILotP, too, which your BM hunters love - their pets dying drops their DPS significantly and having to spend time rezzing pet does the same.

Really worried about health? Do you have 3+ Paladins in raid? Judge Crusader, Wisdom, Light - those rogues will get a ton of healing from Light (50% proc rate - those rogues attack FAST). Possibly more than the Imp LotP proc (which has a cooldown) although ILotP scales (4% max health every 6 sec) and JoL does not (95 health every proc).

For numbers, you'll have to look for the group composition threads. There should be one out there with some simulations run on actual gear, but not sure how helpful it is. I don't believe they measure the overall raid DPS. Move Ret from melee and you move 2% damage, lose battle shout, WF - it tracks the loss of these three, but unlikely the gain of 2% in new group. Move the Feral and it tracks loss of Crit aura, and loss of Battle Shout to Feral, but unlikely it measures what Crit Aura could do in the new group.
#4503SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2dommit
Hard Khorium Battlefists or Gloves of Immortal Dusk

Hello there =) this is my first post here, and Im starting with a doubt.

My gear today:

HEAD [Lightbringer War-Helm]
NECK [Choker of Endless Nightmares]
SHOULDER [Lightbringer Shoulderbraces]
BACK [Cloak of Fiends]
CHEST [Lightbringer Breastplate]
BRACER[Lightbringer Bands]
HAND [Pillager's Gauntlets] (testing) or [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
BELT [Red Belt of Battle]
LEGS [Lightbringer Greaves]
FEET [Dreadboots of the Legion]
RING [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
RING [Angelista's Revenge] or [Band of Devastation]
TRINKET [Shard of Contempt]
TRINKET [Dragonspine Trophy]
WEAPON [Shivering Felspine]
LIBRAM [Libram of Avengement]

Well, my doubt is about the gloves. I'm stacking haste atm, but with this gear, I have only 31% crit (unbuffed).
With [Hard Khorium Battlefists] I keep this critical, but won more AP and keep the haste.
With [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] I'll won like 2.7% crits, and lost haste, AP is almost the same.

Following Rawr, the [Hard Khorium Battlefists] is the best upgrade. But I'm in doubt. What you guys think about?
#4504SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kadrok
Originally Posted by dommit View Post

Following Rawr, the [Hard Khorium Battlefists] is the best upgrade. But I'm in doubt. What you guys think about?
You are going to be losing quite a bit of hit rating in the not so distant future, when you pick up T6 belt and boots. Hard Khorium Battlefists are definately the best bet.
#4505SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Saltycracker
I have a quick question about Seal of Command.

A knowledgeable warrior last night was arguing that Armor Pen was a great stat for ret pallys, where I told him that it only affects our white damage + Crusader strike. He was arguing the it also upped our Seal of Command damage as well; even though seal of command ignores armor, the hit damage is calculated considering how much a white hit would hit for taking armor into account, and then that number is unmitigated SoC holy damage.

I told him he was full of it, but it got me wondering. Does SoC hit harder with sunders up etc?
#4506SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
SoC pierces armor already (it is counted as holy spell damage), so no you get nothing from Armor Penetration on it.

Armor Penetration is still a great stat though because it does affect a large majority of our damage.
#4507SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ayreon
Originally Posted by Sofy View Post
So i was talkin to a ret pally on my server that usually pushes out about 1k dps on average and I asked him what he thinks about haste. He said that it's really useless if you have a shaman in your group using a windfury totem.
Do not listen to him, he's wrong. Haste is an awesome stat, slightly more awesome if you are blood elf.
#4508SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Lochsloy
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I have a quick question about Seal of Command.

A knowledgeable warrior last night was arguing that Armor Pen was a great stat for ret pallys, where I told him that it only affects our white damage + Crusader strike. He was arguing the it also upped our Seal of Command damage as well; even though seal of command ignores armor, the hit damage is calculated considering how much a white hit would hit for taking armor into account, and then that number is unmitigated SoC holy damage.

I told him he was full of it, but it got me wondering. Does SoC hit harder with sunders up etc?
The damage for seal of command is based on the weapon damage range in your character screen, not your actual damage range after armor is factored in, so armor pen does nothing for seal of command.
#4509SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Prepared
I've tried to look in this thread, but there are so many pages, and no answer popped out at me... so forgive me if this has been asked before!

At what point is the benefit to stats on gloves going to outweigh the +5% bonus to Crusader Strike from PVP gloves? I largely have kept the gloves because nothing has dropped while I was around, but I am currently using [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets], but the plans for [Hard Khorium Battlefists] dropped recently and if the increase is justified, I could certainly stand to use them because it would let me drop my +hit/AP ring for a better STR/crit ring, or even my +hit cloak for the same. Also, I figure I may bid on [Grips of Silent Justice] if they were to show up, but otherwise would defer the first pair to our Arms warrior (assuming he doesn't have them; I know he has all T6 pieces, just unsure of what he wears to raids).

My only beef is that I figure the loss of the bonus is about 15 DPS over the course of a couple of Gorefiend kills in past weeks. MaxDPS rates, with my current gear, the PVP gloves at just over 29 DPS, with the crafted ones at about 44 DPS. Keep in mind I have zero haste, and about 1k Armor pen w/Executioner on a [Soul Cleaver]. Archi and RoS have both been... stingy.

TL:DR version: when can I ditch my [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] and not be gimped by the lack of the CS bonus?

Last edited by Prepared : 06/13/08 at 1:37 PM. Reason: disabled smilies for formatting reasons; and again for improper item#
#4510SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arikah
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
I've tried to look in this thread, but there are so many pages, and no answer popped out at me... so forgive me if this has been asked before!

At what point is the benefit to stats on gloves going to outweigh the +5% bonus to Crusader Strike from PVP gloves? I largely have kept the gloves because nothing has dropped while I was around, but I am currently using [Merciless Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets], but the plans for [Hard Khorium Battlefists] dropped recently and if the increase is justified, I could certainly stand to use them because it would let me drop my +hit/AP ring for a better STR/crit ring, or even my +hit cloak for the same. Also, I figure I may bid on [Grips of Silent Justice] if they were to show up, but otherwise would defer the first pair to our Arms warrior (assuming he doesn't have them; I know he has all T6 pieces, just unsure of what he wears to raids).

My only beef is that I figure the loss of the bonus is about 15 DPS over the course of a couple of Gorefiend kills in past weeks. MaxDPS rates, with my current gear, the PVP gloves at just over 29 DPS, with the crafted ones at about 44 DPS. Keep in mind I have zero haste, and about 1k Armor pen w/Executioner on a [Soul Cleaver]. Archi and RoS have both been... stingy.

TLR version: when can I ditch my [Merciless Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] and not be gimped by the lack of the CS bonus?
uhm, if you are really using the season 2 gloves there is no bonus and you can swap right away.

If you are using s3 gloves like i assume... you can still swap, although basic napkin math shows that s4 gloves are better for alliance paladins, only being beaten by immortal dusk gloves (crafted leather)... so it may be worth waiting 10 days for s4 gloves.
#4511SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Prepared
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
uhm, if you are really using the season 2 gloves there is no bonus and you can swap right away.

If you are using s3 gloves like i assume... you can still swap, although basic napkin math shows that s4 gloves are better for alliance paladins, only being beaten by immortal dusk gloves (crafted leather)... so it may be worth waiting 10 days for s4 gloves.
Wow, I'm such an idiot. I'm going to go edit those in right now. XD I actually have [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] as you say, so I suppose I should just go for [Brutal Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] then?
#4512SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2flyingtoastr
Depends. If you need hit rating (which you will eventually) the BS crafted are still worth a lot more than the Season 4 gloves.
#4513SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Avitus
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
TLR version: when can I ditch my [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] and not be gimped by the lack of the CS bonus?
1. Use Rawr
2. ??
3. Profit!

No seriously, any gear comparison question almost always comes down on a case by case basis and that's where Rawr is the quickest shortcut to the correct answer. It does factor in the 5% bonus to CS.
#4514SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
MaxDPS rates, with my current gear, the PVP gloves at just over 29 DPS, with the crafted ones at about 44 DPS. Keep in mind I have zero haste, and about 1k Armor pen w/Executioner on a [Soul Cleaver]. Archi and RoS have both been... stingy.
While MaxDPS is fair for making broad decisions, once you want these details, it is not accurate enough. Download .Net and get Rawr. If you use a Mac, borrow a friend's PC.

Also Mongoose is usually better than Executioner when you low passive -armor, again Rawr can show you the difference (not that it is big either way).
#4515SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Prepared
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
While MaxDPS is fair for making broad decisions, once you want these details, it is not accurate enough. Download .Net and get Rawr. If you use a Mac, borrow a friend's PC.

Also Mongoose is usually better than Executioner when you low passive -armor, again Rawr can show you the difference (not that it is big either way).
I have not honestly touched Rawr in some time, and when I did the number were... questionable. I guess that must not be the case anymore! I'll have to take a look some time tonight when I'm at home.

Thank you all for the recommendation. It's certainly a lot more user-friendly than the spreadsheet (since I use OpenOffice).
#4516SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
I have not honestly touched Rawr in some time, and when I did the number were... questionable. I guess that must not be the case anymore! I'll have to take a look some time tonight when I'm at home.

Thank you all for the recommendation. It's certainly a lot more user-friendly than the spreadsheet (since I use OpenOffice).
Zurm, Astrylian, and others have made great strides with Rawr. It is quite possibly one of the best tools available today.
#4526SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Thalmur
Thanks for the ideas, guys. I guess I was so blinded by the fact I needed alot of ArP, I quite neglected my crit %. I'll play around with a mix of the two sets and see if I can get a higher DPS number.
#4527SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
I now have definitive proof that the Lionheart Executioner proc *IS NOT* modeled in RAWR. I'm somewhat disappointed I didn't think of this sooner.

Open Rawr.
Open the item edit.
Edit Endbringer (two-handed sword, no procs).
Input the Lionheart Executioner's stats.
Remember to scroll down and zero out the crit (and stamina?).
Click "Okey".
Observe the Endbringer and the Lionheart Executioner having the exact same dps.

If RAWR did account for the Proc, even an unfavorable modeling of it, they would not have identical values.
#4528SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Astrylian
Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
I now have definitive proof that the Lionheart Executioner proc *IS NOT* modeled in RAWR. I'm somewhat disappointed I didn't think of this sooner.

Open Rawr.
Open the item edit.
Edit Endbringer (two-handed sword, no procs).
Input the Lionheart Executioner's stats.
Remember to scroll down and zero out the crit (and stamina?).
Click "Okey".
Observe the Endbringer and the Lionheart Executioner having the exact same dps.

If RAWR did account for the Proc, even an unfavorable modeling of it, they would not have identical values.
Nobody said it did...? It doesn't, there's nothing saying that it does. If you'd like, the best thing would be to just add on 50str or however much the average value of the proc is, using the item editor.
#4529SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
Nobody said it did...? It doesn't, there's nothing saying that it does. If you'd like, the best thing would be to just add on 50str or however much the average value of the proc is, using the item editor.
Yes, someone did.

Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I know for a fact rawr does take the proc into account, and that sounds about right.
See?

I did that, but apparently since the proc has no internal cooldown, that method isn't good enough. See Page 180.
#4530SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Floria
I tried using Rawr, but the Mac version is (as advertised) quite buggy, so I'm just going to ask this as a quick question:

Is [Flask of Relentless Assault] really only a marginal increase over [Elixir of Major Agility]? It calculated as something around 1 DPS more for me, and I guess that makes sense since the flask is a 50 STR equivalent versus the 55 crit/AGI that the elixir would be (plus guardian elixir).

Still, it seems strange that the Flask isn't obviously better like they are for other classes (Pure Death > Major Shadow Power always, for instance). Did I miss something, or is this really just the case?
#4531SourcePosted on <=2.0.0JettJaguar
The elixir models very close to the flask for me as well (~3dps). It is probably because pallies see such high returns from their agi -> conversion ratio.
#4551SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nicki
Originally Posted by Jerace View Post
Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you had some useful cast sequence macros to maximize my DPS as an Alliance paladin. I'm in a constant struggle to prove and maintain my raid slot, as of now i manually cast each ability which I'm beginning to think is a very inefficient way when you incorporate server latency and good old fashioned slow reaction times. Thanks in advance, this thread is the holy bible of Retribution, thanks to all who have invested time and contributed to the theorycraft, you help us turn us terribads into well oiled machines.

P.S. I hope I don't get any grammer infractions.

[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
#4552SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Lilpenny View Post
Yeah with no parry mechanic rolling on Brut I was thinking of shading to the side and picking up some slashes every now and then for some mana gain, healers wouldn't even notice the damage taken from me getting 1-2 slashes and Chain heal will just auto jump to me for the heal. How far into Burn do you go before bubble?
I wouldn't advise this, iirc brutallus doesn't parry thrash for the current tank only. Melee can still cause swing resets.
#4553SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aramul
Originally Posted by Shiz View Post
@Arikah
I noticed you have the 8 sec judgement, can you elaborate upon your rotation?
Thanks!
There is no difference. You do the same cycle and have more slack time, so you aren't running your Judgement into your CSes due to latency/button press time. An easier/mildly quicker cycle is worth far more than a point in Benediction.
#4554SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ragnor
2/2 rather than 1/2 imp judgement is just useful for arena so you can judge Justice on that pesky druid 1sec sooner if it gets removed/trinketed etc. There's not really anywhere else great to put that 1 pt in the typical 5/8/48 or 5/10/46 pve (with a dash of pvp) spec.
#4576SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Foxconfessor
Originally Posted by Shiz View Post
In last night's Brutallus attempts, I was only able to eek out 1380 DPS. Wondering what raid composition you are using.
My group was Enh Shaman, Arms Warrior, Fury Warrior, Rogue, Ret (me!). Four of us were drummers, which equals constant drums. We had CoR and a survival hunter, and 2 bloodlusts, the first one at 4 mins, upon which I used haste pot/trinket and AW for the second time, and the second following that. I also used demonslaying exlir and scroll of strength V.

Personally, I'd stick with the CE/Harbingers. Soul Cleaver may be slower but it's just far worse in general. Seal twisting should serve to enhance your existing damage, you don't want to go too far out of your way to accommodate it if it means sacrificing things. Just use your best gear, and twist when you've got a window to do it. If you think it is a bit tight, or you think your weapon speed may have changed during the swing (quartz doesn't adjust according to haste changes until after the current swing), just wait.

A thing to consider if you are wiping on Brut is that unless you are checking recount or whatever the exact moment the tank dies your dps will go down and the numbers will be unrepresentative of your real dps because he is running around while you are wiping. My advice is to practice the technique, don't worry too much about doing more dps, just worry about not screwing up the rotation and getting caught without SoB on a swing. Just get comfortable with it, the dps will come. If your guild is wiping on the boss they are probably more interested in reaching the enrage with live tanks and managing burns rather than maximizing dps. Everything should fall into place when your raid is ready to kill the boss.

Last edited by Foxconfessor : Yesterday at 11:01 AM.
#4577SourcePosted on <=2.0.0odie85
It's in post http://elitistjerks.com/772863-post4437.html

I believe the conclusion was it is only better for both factions if you are using DMC:C with the Alchemist stone. Although if you are a BloodElf ret paladin, haste pots still win.
#4578SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Avitus
Originally Posted by Veneda View Post
I think there was some math theorycrafting done by Avitus on the previous pages of this thread that proved that fel mana pots are always better then haste no matter the faction. It might be possible that the case was true only for people using Alchemist Stone trinket though.
Iirc it was with Alchemist's Stone only yes.

Personally the last few months I've switched to using haste pot + AW -> Fel mana pot -> haste pot + AW + heroism for my Brut potion rotation now and use Shard of Contempt + DST as my trinkets.


Originally Posted by Veneda View Post
(it's really hard to find, no one ever made the compilation of important stuff)
Yea sorry about that, I was halfway through writing such a thing at the time when this thread had reached "critical mass" and we were being flooded by the same questions multiple times a day, however things seem to have quieted down significantly now.

Additionally since TBC content has pretty much ended (as well as disbanding my old guild of 3 years), I've gradually started losing interest in the game, I don't think I'm alone in this. Don't think it warrants a new thread anymore at least for the time being.

Last edited by Avitus : Yesterday at 1:21 PM.
#4579SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Petersen
Okey, I'm really tired of trying to slough through nearly 4600 posts to find the data I want which *should* be on the first page with the rest of the 'need to know' information.

Can anyone direct me to hard evidence proving that Executioner < Mongoose for (nearly) all situations? This isn't a point I'm contesting directly, I just want to know where this 'common knowledge' is coming from.


I am not asking you to spell out again for the umpteenth time (assuming it's been done already) why Executioner is not as good as Mongoose.

I am not asking to be ridiculed for not searching for the information, because I believe it is unreasonable to expect someone to wade through a thread this ridiculously long for information any other class would have right on the front page.

I am not trying to start a multi-page tirade about the pros and cons of either enchant.

I am asking for some direction to the work that must already have been done for people to so strongly hold to the idea that Mongoose is *the* weapon enchant.
#4580SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Chrix
Theres a whole thread on it, i personally haven't read it but if your looking for answers you should check it out:
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers

The basic stuff i do know is that ArP scales well when stacked but unless you have a certain amount, the gain from agility + the atk speed far outweighs the ArP.
#4581SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nisall
A paladin gets less from ArP than most physical dpsers since a fairly decent portion of a paladin's dps is holy, which already ignores armor. So Executioner doesn't affect anything close to 100% of our dps and that is why mongoose is almost always better. For the maths look at the link Chrix posted.
#4582SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Petersen View Post
Okey, I'm really tired of trying to slough through nearly 4600 posts to find the data I want which *should* be on the first page with the rest of the 'need to know' information.

Can anyone direct me to hard evidence proving that Executioner < Mongoose for (nearly) all situations? This isn't a point I'm contesting directly, I just want to know where this 'common knowledge' is coming from.


I am not asking you to spell out again for the umpteenth time (assuming it's been done already) why Executioner is not as good as Mongoose.

I am not asking to be ridiculed for not searching for the information, because I believe it is unreasonable to expect someone to wade through a thread this ridiculously long for information any other class would have right on the front page.

I am not trying to start a multi-page tirade about the pros and cons of either enchant.

I am asking for some direction to the work that must already have been done for people to so strongly hold to the idea that Mongoose is *the* weapon enchant.
www.retpaladin.com &bull; View topic - Executioner vs Mongoose - Research
WoW Forums -> Retribution 101: Executioner vs Mongoose

Those 2 threads are devoted to the research of Caelen of The Forgotten Coast server, who mathed out the difference between Mongoose and Executioner for Ret Paladins. If you read those and still have questions, post in the retpaladin.com thread.
#4583SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ragnor
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
haste pot + AW -> Fel mana pot -> haste pot + AW + heroism
Yeah this is what I'm doing also.

With 2 piece T6 and demonic runes it's not a problem to use 2 haste pots and use max rank exo + r6 consecration (switching to 1 when low)
#4584SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Saltycracker
Originally Posted by Nisall View Post
A paladin gets less from ArP than most physical dpsers since a fairly decent portion of a paladin's dps is holy, which already ignores armor. So Executioner doesn't affect anything close to 100% of our dps and that is why mongoose is almost always better. For the maths look at the link Chrix posted.
I forget the exact number but there is a certain amount of ArP that will make executioner more effective than mongoose. I know that once I get my endgame set from sunwell, executioner becomes a better enchant due to all the ArP that is on the sunwell gear.

Use Rawr for details.
#4585SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
 Shiz
Anyone know the best way to get Ret Paladin EP Weights to be concise? I tried the spreadsheet linked on the first page and then plugged the numbers into the Equivalence Plug In (eqp - Google Code) and it seemed very wrong. Especially with reagrd to Strength and Armor Pen.

Here is what I got: http://www.outlandriders.com/images/epweights.jpg

Any input on whether those look correct or if I am doing something wrong?
Thanks

Last edited by Shiz : Today at 11:06 AM.
#4586SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cathmor
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I forget the exact number but there is a certain amount of ArP that will make executioner more effective than mongoose. I know that once I get my endgame set from sunwell, executioner becomes a better enchant due to all the ArP that is on the sunwell gear.

Use Rawr for details.
The threads I linked a few posts ago contain the numbers to which you refer, Salty. Against high armor bosses, it ends up being somewhere in the 800-1000 passive ArP range with full raid buffs and full -armor debuffs on the target.
#4587SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Nisall
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I forget the exact number but there is a certain amount of ArP that will make executioner more effective than mongoose. I know that once I get my endgame set from sunwell, executioner becomes a better enchant due to all the ArP that is on the sunwell gear.

Use Rawr for details.
Hence I said almost always

[EDIT]I went back and fiddled with rawr abit and used the best (or 2nd/3rd best if it had ArP) items and got 1102 ArP from gear (5112 ArP and 2.25k dps fully buffed). Even in that case rawr says Mongoose is better albeit by a minimal margin.

Last edited by Nisall : Today at 12:42 PM.
#4588SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
flyingtoastr
Originally Posted by Nisall View Post
Hence I said almost always

[EDIT]I went back and fiddled with rawr abit and used the best (or 2nd/3rd best if it had ArP) items and got 1102 ArP from gear (5112 ArP and 2.25k dps fully buffed). Even in that case rawr says Mongoose is better albeit by a minimal margin.
Rawr has never modeled Executioner correctly.

Unless someone changed it without me knowing Rawr just assumes it is a passive 280 armor penetration (1 PPM of 840 armor pen averages out to such). This all works well and good for stats that increase linearly, such as Haste, Crit and Attack Power. For example, Mongoose can be averaged out as about 40 agility. Since agility scales in a straight linear fashion (each point of agi will give you the same amount of extra crit) it works well. It does not work for stats that increase exponentially such as Armor Penetration. Each point of armor penetration increases damage more than the previous point, which means that during Executioner uptime (840 for 20 seconds per minute) the additional damage is greater than the average penetration model (280 passive over the whole minute).

Last edited by flyingtoastr : Today at 3:21 PM.
#4589SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hemonology
I agree, the stats which aren't so easyily scaleable such as ArP doesn't allow for the proper mapping of the executioner

enchant. At this point because noone has really gives a constant ArP already factored into the equation based on gear

already used/owned, we have to keep stats based person to person at this point. Now,going by the base 1ppm - 840

ArP per target, and 1000 base ArP(which we will call D), we can safely assume that executioner over a raid will increase

dmg by 5.56 % averaged out. Now,if you scale mongoose in the same fashion heres where the numbers become foggy

to me.Will D, because of the base stat with the mongoose enchant improve overall dps, or because of the factor of the

ArP needed for the executioner to improve dps along the same line or supass mongoose is 1000?So in reality the more

ArP which you already have stacked on your gear the more efficient it works twords your overall dps advantage. In the

same breath though, just like most things in wow,there is a ceiling which to operate by. On a cloth boss consider this, if

you are operating with a warrior tank keep in mind the value of his sunders. I don't have the math offhand rightnow,

but once that warrior has gotten to the 5 mark and devastated, that effectively reduced that bosses armor to almost

zero. So the more ArP you stack on your gear for a fight of that nature,you lose overall affectiveness,and thus dps.So

what it really boils down to is the Paladins' versatility as a class. Retadins are shunned for the most part, and accepted

at best, but not heralded. You need to use your own decision making process when going into these fights about what

gear to stack where, and what bosses to use that ArP gear to its most affective stat.Will executioner still help you in

those fights? Of course, but the base ArP needed on your gear for most other boss fights wont be needed there, use

your head, and you will see a difference in the way you play, and the way in which your raid group values your slot as a Retadin.
#4590SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
 Avitus
Nice post, there's some merit to the mathematical breakdown, however there's several things that seem to have been rushed and ignored giving an incorrect conclusion (imo).


1. For PVP: He doesn't consider vengeance stacks. While it's true that resilience lowers the damage when you do crit, more crit percentage means more frequent vengeance stacks (which you can't as easily keep rolling on a 350-493 resilience target as you do in PvE). 5% -> 10% -> 15% more damage with vengeance stacks is a bigger benefit than any other damage buff you can possibly get. Mongoose gives you 5% additional chance to proc vengeance.

2. For PVP: He doesn't consider the ~5% dodge (defensive bonus) you get whenever Mongoose is up. I'd rather eat an Overpower every now and then and let the warrior burn his rage and waste his gcd stance dancing than not have ~5% extra dodge on occasion which work against rogues, hunter pets, ferals, other ret pallies, enhance shammies and all warrior attacks except overpower.

3. For PvP: Clothies are already squishy, hitting them slightly harder when executioner procs isn't going to seal the deal any more than the extra crits you'll get with Mongoose, in both cases, with or without procs, clothies are squishy and not really the issue here. It's the heavily armored warriors, ferals and shield wielding healers that are the real problem when you're trying to frontload a lot of damage and executioner is actually CRAP against them (taking 840 armor off a 10-20k armor target gives you pretty much nada). Mongoose is just as good against the heavily armored targets where it counts and you actually NEED more damage as it is against the squishy clothies.

==>Conclusion for PVP: It seems he just bypasses the whole argument by saying "hey Mongoose sucks in PvP since crits hit for less with resilience". Given the points I've listed above, there is no way I can agree with Executioner being superior in PvP. PvP is non-scripted so you can't really break it down into math perfectly and expect that to be realistic, but for all things considered, the higher chance to keep vengeance stacks up alone pretty much seals the deal in favor of Mongoose. Additionally as a damage buff (where it counts => High armor targets) as well as a defensive buff, Mongoose is simply far superior.


4. Faulty general logic: He is unsure of how the haste mechanic works for Mongoose and disregards it in all calculations, then adds it as a throwaway comment later on. The haste gained from Mongoose is definitely NOT like SotC, instead it works like any other haste effect in the game that increases your autoattack and WF DPS with no penalties.

5. PvE in practice: For the point to be reached where Executioner overtakes Mongoose, Sunder/Expose, FF as well as CoR are always assumed to be always on. This is correct, any raid should always run with these debuffs. However, it is also very common for at least FF and CoR to occasionally drop off. Now considering the advantage executioner has at a certain ArmPen point is very slim, instabilities in FF/CoR uptime can pretty much nullify that.


==> Conclusion for PvE: At no to low armor pen, Mongoose is always better. At a "certain point" (which Rawr can semi-accurately tell you based on your gear and other stats) Executioner overtakes Mongoose.

In reality, the "certain point" is actually a "window" where you stack ArmPen high enough where Executioner overtakes Mongoose, but not too high on low armor bosses where the additional ArmPen is wasted and Executioner becomes worthless.

If you manage to land in that window, then yes, Executioner will be very slightly better theoretically. In practice FF/CoR uptime can further taint even this conclusion. For all other purposes (especially PvP as explained above), I'd stick with Mongoose.

As explained, Rawr is your best bet to check which enchant is best for you, though as previously explained it does (very slightly) undervalue Executioner.


Extra cookie tip: An often ignored fact when comparing Retri math to MS Warrior math (our closest relatives for theorycrafting purposes) is that for both Executioner as well as Mongoose there are big differences.

-Executioner: As explained, warriors will gain more here. While ArmPen will increase 100% of their damage, it will only work for 70% of ours!

-Mongoose: (Often ignored fact) We gain a lot more from Agility than warriors do! At level 70, Paladins gain 1% crit and 1% dodge every 25 agility. Warriors require 33 agility (!) per 1% crit and 30 agility per 1% dodge.

With BoK, 120 * 1.1 agi from Mongoose is worth 5.28% crit and dodge for us (4.8% without BoK), but only 4% crit for Warriors (3.63% without BoK).

=> Too many people jump to conclusions based on what they hear/read on warrior forums. Executioner is a LOT better for them and Mongoose is A LOT worse for them. Don't get confused.

Last edited by Avitus : Today at 6:01 PM.
#4591SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hemonology
Thanks for the walk-through Avitus, I wasn't completely able to get all my thoughts coherent for that post, but you fixed it up all quite nicely. I hope all of that combined mumbo-jumbo was able to answer your question Petersen.